Maldives misunderstands Islam, bans non-Muslim houses of worship

Hugh, if the Muslims want to act like this, when the Maldives eventually go under the West should send ships clearly marked "Christians Only". The Ummah will no doubt provide for thier brethren.

In the case of wateery Bangladesh, the markings from the Indian ships and rescue teams should be expanded: "Hindus, Christians, and Buddhists Only."

Eric, yes islam and US foreign policy can instigate a minority of people to violence, but we cannot indict an entire community of muslims for the bad acts of a few, just as Hitler should not have indicted an entire race of jews for the bad acts of a few jews

Please do comment on responses to DDA below, thanks

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

You know, ladies and gentlemen, when I see '45ch' - who from all sorts of things s/he has said in other postings, under other monikers (e.g. 'loveverybody'), is most definitely a Mohammedan - putting on a 'Christian' mask and quoting a few passages of scripture at us, over and over and over, I am reminded, myself, of two *other* passages of Scripture: namely, Luke 4: 2-12 (especially 9-12), and Matthew 4:1-10, especially 5-7.

Comment :

Regarding Luke 4: 9-12 ( Matthew 4: 5-7 ):

All religions rely on the power of the sword to evangelize but not true christians and that does not mean christians are testing the Lord.

When the early christians did not retaliate against the terrorist Romans and when they submitted to the rule of the terrorist Romans, they were not testing the lord but obeying the Holy Spirit to evangelize without relying on the power of the sword.

To turn the hearts of muslims to Christ, the only way to evangelize is through the power of the Holy Spirit and not the power of the sword.

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

If 45ch thinks that by achieving 'the last word' - that is, the final posting on the thread, which it probably will, for the rest of us have many other things to discuss - s/he will achieve 'victory', s/he is sadly mistaken.

Comment :

Having the last word is not victory.

Victory is when children do not die in unnecessary wars instigated by the US govt

Victory is when our beloved soldiers are not sent deliberately into harm's way, all in the name of patriotism and honor while the rich and powerful in the military/industrial complex "laugh all the way to the bank ".

Victory is when christians start relying on the Holy Spirit rather than the power of the sword in order to evangelize

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

For us non-Muslims here (not only Christians but also Jews, atheists, agnostics, Hindus, and others) to observe and to publicly state that Major Nidal Hasan was - and repeatedly declared himself to be - motivated by the central doctrines of classical Islam, Islam of the Quran-Sira-Hadith, is not 'hate'. It is a plain description of observable documented fact, tantamount to stating that 2 + 2 = 4.

Comment :

From 1776 through 2009, how many American muslim soldiers have murdered their fellow soldiers ?

Out of about 3500 American muslim soldiers, how many murdered their fellow soldiers ?

Indicting all muslims for the criminal acts of one soldier is hate, just as Hitler indicted all jews for the supposed "criminal acts" of a few jews .

Major Nidal Hassan and Timothy McVeigh would probably have not committed their crimes if they were not exposed to the horrors of war and the adverse policies of the US govt.

Did religion play a role in Nidal's crimes ? I am sure it did but more then religion is seeing pitiful children in Iraq and Afghanistan being collateral victims of either US bombings or collateral victims of rebels who retaliate against fellow citizens who they suspect to be allies of the occupying power.

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

I shall repeat, from a posting I made above:

"The Nidal Hasan case - complete with his damning powerpoint presentation followed by actual practical demonstration - was a spectacular case of the Cat Getting Out Of The Bag. Or perhaps, Crocodile out of the bag, or Gremlin out of the Bag.

The Mohammedtrolls are trying hard to stuff it back in before anyone notices all those teeth and claws."

Comment :

The "teeth and claws" is human weakness in taking revenge for the collateral deaths of children in wars instigated by the US govt.

Indicting all muslims for the criminal acts of a few is hate, just as Hitler indicted all jews for the criminal acts of a few.

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

QUOTE "...a major, twofold fact transforms the jihad into something quite different from traditional wars, waged for ambition and self-interest, with limited objectives, where the "normal" situation is peace between peoples - war, in itself, constituting a dramatic event which must end in a return to peace.

Comment :

Peace is the normal situation among most muslim nations as almost all muslim nations have not gone beyond their borders in the past 100 years, as compared to non-muslim nations who have gone to wars beyond their borders.

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

"This twofold fact is, first, the religious nature [of the jihad]; then, secondly, the fact that war has become an institution (and no longer an "event").

Comment :

The fact is that in the past 100 years, war is not an institution among almost all muslim countries

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

"Jihad is generally translated as "holy war" (this term is not satisfactory); and this suggests both that this war is provoked by strong religious feeling, and then that its first object is not so much to conquer land as to Islamize the populations.

Comment :

There are millions of non-muslims living in peace in muslim countries without being forced to become muslims.

Does it mean its a perfect situation ? off course not.

anytime there are minorities in any country, the majority will sometimes take advantage of and even persecute as has been seen in the persecution of blacks in America as late as the 60s through Jim Crowe laws and even lynchings.

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

"This war is a religious duty.

Comment :

Here is a video where a militant muslim is accusing muslims outside a mosque of not going to jihad:

http://www.blip.tv/file/2760905

Islam is not more powerful than Christianity and since christians do not follow the pacifism of Christ, almost all muslims do not go to jihad because both Christianity and Islam are not able to override the free will of their followers.

Just as almost all christians do not follow Christ's pacifism, almost all muslims do not follow the call to jihad.

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

"In Islam, on the contrary, jihad is a religious obligation.

Comment :

Pacifism is a "religious" obligation of all christians, but how many follow Christ's pacifism ?

Likewise, Islam is not more powerful than christianity and is not able to override the free will of muslims, so that is the reason,just as christians do not obey their "religion" concerning pacifism, muslims do not follow their religion either concerning jihad.

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

"It [Jihad] forms part of the duties that the believer must fulfil;

"it is Islam's *normal* {Ellul's emphasis - dda} path to expansion.

"And this is found repeatedly, dozens of times in the Koran.

Comment :

There is no evidence that almost all muslims are involved in jihad, just as there is no evidence that all christians are involved in pacifism as commanded by Christ.

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

"Therefore, the believer is not denying the religious message. Quite the reverse, jihad is the way he best obeys it.

Comment :

As I said before, there is no evidence that almost all muslims are involved in jihad, just as there is no evidence that almost all christians are pacifists as Christ was.

Both Islam and Christianity are not able to override the free will of their believers and that is why believers in both religions are not obeying their respective religions concerning either pacifism or jihadism.

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

"But Bat Ye'or shows that things are not so simple. Since the jihad is not solely an external war, it can break out within the Muslim world itself - and wars among Muslims have been numerous, but always with the same features.

Comment :

Wars among muslims is true.

Muslims have always been disunited and that is no way there is going to be a worldwide islamic caliphate because muslims even at the height of islamic power ended up breaking into different countries and eventually there are about 57 muslim countries today since muslims have always had differing goals and agendas

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

"The world [for Muslims], as Bat Ye'or brilliantly shows, is divided into two regions: the dar al-Islam and the dar al-harb - in other words, the "domain of Islam" and "the domain of war".

Comment :

In the past 100 years, almost all muslim countries have remained within the "domain of islam" as compared to non-muslim countries that have waged war beyond their borders.

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

"The world is no longer divided into nations, peoples, or tribes.

Comment :

The world is divided and it will always be divided, just as muslims are divided to the extent there does exist about 57 muslim countries today.

Even at the height of islamic power, the islamic empire started breaking up and eventually we have about 57 muslim countries today due to the fact that muslims have always been disunited, so there will never be one united world wide islamic caliphate.

The existence of nations speaks to the differing ideologies and the economic interests of the rich and powerful within each country.

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

"Rather, they are all located en bloc in the world of war, where war is the only possible relationship with the outside world.

" The earth belongs to Allah and all its inhabitants must acknowledge this reality; to achieve this goal there is but one method: war.

Comment :

War has been more of a theme from non-muslim nations these past 100 years than compared to war from muslim nations

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

"War, then, is clearly an institution, not just an incidental or fortuitous institution, but a constituent part of the thought, the organization and the structures of this world.

Comment :

War has been more of an institution among non-muslim countries these past 100 years than from muslim countries

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

"Peace with this world of war is impossible. Of course it is sometimes necessary to call a halt; there are circumstances where it is better not to make war. The Koran allows for this. But this changes nothing: war remains an institution, which means that it must resume as soon as circumstances permit.

Comment :

Peace is possible, as seen by the fact that almost all 57 muslim countries have not gone beyond their borders these past 100 years as compared to the war mongering of non-muslim nations these past 100 years

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

"I have greatly stressed the characteristics of this war, because there is so much talk nowadays of the tolerance and fundamental pacifism of Islam that it is necessary to recall its nature, which is fundamentally warlike! " END EXCERPT FROM ELLUL ON JIHAD.

Q. E. D, at Fort Hood, earlier this month

Comment :

We have to look at what muslims are actually doing rather then the texts of their religion, just as we should be looking at what jews are actually doing rather than looking at the text of Deut 20:16 which commands Jews to conquer lands up to Iraq and to commit genocide on all men, women, children and babies living within the "promised land".

By what muslims are actually doing, it is fair to say that almost all muslims are not involved in jihad except for a tiny minority who can never conquer the world or even a single muslim country.

CONCLUSION :

The fact is that American Presidents, including President Reagan, have been informed by the CIA that Saudi Arabia is not dangerous to world peace and that is why the US govt has ties to Saudi Arabia and numerous other muslim countries that are not a danger to world peace.

I can assure you, you are more in danger from your fellow citizens than any muslim terrorist

And you are more in danger from everyday household items or foods that you eat that can have deadly consequences either in the short term or long term.

And you are more in danger of getting cancer because cancer is the result of hate that consumes the soul.

So you would be better off concentrating on the true dangers to your health and safety and not "cooked up dangers from Islam" that only benefit the profit agenda of the bloated, greedy, corrupt military/industrial pork laden corporate welfare entitlement complex where here in the US the complex is looting the US govt of 68 cents of every hard earned tax dollar amounting to over a trillion dollars a year

gymgal, you stated :

"I can assure you, you are more in danger from your fellow citizens than any muslim terrorist"

Tell that to the mothers/fathers/sisters/brothers/family of the THOUSANDS (so far) of victims of Islamic terrorists here in the USA.

Comment :

Are you talking about American soldiers in war zones being victims of terrorists ?

We have read about numerous cases in the US in which loving fathers in our non-war zone and trauma-less America have nonetheless terrorized, tortured and killed their own children or pregnant wives, either through suffocation, drowning, hanging, beheading, stabbings or shootings,

so is it surprising that in Iraq or Afghanistan today, in the trauma of a war zone, where numerous victims see their loved ones being killed or blinded, maimed, deformed or paralyzed or disfigured for life due to either US bombings or sectarian violence, that those victims are vulnerable to Al-Qaida's propaganda which is able to influence the victims to take revenge and kill Muslims allied with the US or collaterally/accidentally kill Muslim children in the process of attacking US forces or Shia militias ?

If you were in a war zone and you see your family murdered by rebels or collaterally killed by the occupying force, knowing that you do not compromise with injustice , what would you do ?

When a foreign power occupies another country or when separatist movements reject the govt., it tends to result in terrorism, as was seen by the torture that many loyalist Americans/British went through by being tarred ( boiling tar being poured on them) because they were seen as loyal to the occupying British forces by the American rebels.

Another form of terrorism was the killing of british troops by the American rebels, after the British troops had surrendered.

ref : http://home.golden.net/~marg/bansite/banecdotes/96quarter.html

Lynchings were ordered by American Patriot Judge Charles Lynch on the terrorized American loyalists who were loyal to the British Crown.

So terrorism can be the result of being in a war zone and its either terrorism from the occupying force through collateral actions or the terrorism of the rebels against those loyal to the occupying force.

The fact that most American loyalists, who were loyal to Britain, fled the US, shows the terror they faced, not only from being tarred or properties confiscated but being lynched to death.

ref : http://www.redcoat.me.uk/

If the US govt did not send our beloved soldiers into muslim countries, our soldiers will not be victims of terrorists, but sadly, the US govt is more interested in catering to the power agendas of chicken hawk politicians and the profit agendas of the bloated, wasteful, greedy military/industrial pork laden, corporate welfare entitlement complex then caring about the lives of our soldiers sending them deliberately into harm's way, all in the name of honor, duty and patriotism while the rich and powerful in the military/industrial complex laugh all the way to the bank

gymgal, you stated :

"I can assure you, you are more in danger from your fellow citizens than any muslim terrorist"

Tell that to the mothers/fathers/sisters/brothers/family of the THOUSANDS (so far) of victims of Islamic terrorists here in the USA.

Comment :

If you are referring to the 9/11 attacks, its still true that you are more in danger of being a victim of your fellow citizens than any muslim terrorist.

Take domestic violence which is a form of terrorism; about 2000 Americans die every year from jealous, homicidal intimate partners.

If you take into consideration all forms of terrorism in America, the statistics are overwhelming that you are more likely to be a victim of fellow non-muslim citizens than a terrorist

Just because there are other problems in the world, does not invalidate the reason behind this site, any more than sites about gang violence must shut down because there is drunk drivers to worry about, or animal rights/welfare sites should shut down because there are starving kids in Africa, or that children's welfare sites should shut down because of global warming.

ethoman, you stated :

45ch I think you forgot about Islamic genocides in E. Timor, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sudan, over 200,000 Tamil's in concentration camps in Sri Lanka, genocide in New Guinea.

Comment :

Compared to genocides in islamic countries, there have been a hundred more million people who died under genocides in non-muslim countries in the past hundred years

ref : http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/dictat.html

ethoman, you stated :

Jihad wars in Yemen, Algeria, Afghanistan, Nigeria, China, Chechnya, Bosnia, Israel, Lebanon, Turkey, Somalia, Eritrea, Thailand, Saudi Arabia to name a few.

Comment :

Jihad wars are due to either separatist movements or trying to expel foreign armies from muslim lands.

An example of expelling foreign armies can be seen in the US revolutionary war which did result in terrorism.

If you were in a war zone and you see your family murdered by rebels or collaterally killed by the occupying force, knowing that you do not compromise with injustice , what would you do ?

When a foreign power occupies another country or when separatist movements reject the govt., it tends to result in terrorism, as was seen by the torture that many loyalist Americans/British went through by being tarred ( boiling tar being poured on them) because they were seen as loyal to the occupying British forces by the American rebels.

Another form of terrorism was the killing of british troops by the American rebels, after the British troops had surrendered.

ref : http://home.golden.net/~marg/bansite/banecdotes/96quarter.html

Lynchings were ordered by American Patriot Judge Charles Lynch on the terrorized American loyalists who were loyal to the British Crown.

So terrorism can be the result of being in a war zone and its either terrorism from the occupying force through collateral actions or the terrorism of the rebels against those loyal to the occupying force.

The fact that most American loyalists who were loyal to Britain fled the US, shows the terror they faced, not only from being tarred or properties confiscated but being lynched to death.

ref : http://www.redcoat.me.uk/

ethoman, you stated :

To top it off all Islamic countries discriminate upon non-Muslims according to their religious doctrines this isn't some aberration from the norm either.

Comment :

Discrimination of minorities exist in all countries, including the US when blacks were not only discriminated against but thousands were lynched in the 19th and 20th centuries.

The solution is to help muslim reformers in the muslim world and one way to do that is not make their work harder by having blowback American foreign policies that only instigate by collaterally killing muslim children either through direct collateral actions of the US govt or through indirect collateral actions of dictators or govts backed militarily by the US govt.

ethoman, you stated :

Muslims come here to the west as immigrants, but they carry the ideological baggage which would transform our societies into chaos, and over time possibly subjugate our future generations, just like they do now to non-Muslims in the Islamic world, and they are getting away with it because (supposed) non-Muslims like you enable them, and moderate Muslims have yet to form liberal free societies, because .... in my opinion this is impossible under sharia norms, so they simply can't form rational counter arguments to the current Islamic authoritarian model.

Comment :

There are numerous muslim countries that do not follow Sharia, so muslims have progressed.

Here is a list of non-sharia countries :

Burkina Faso
Chad
Gambia
Guinea
Mali
Senegal
Somalia
Kazakhstan
Kyrgystan
Tajikstan
Turkmenistan
Uzbekistan
Albania
Azerbaijan
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Kosovo

Even in the Sharia states of Malaysia, non-muslims can wear skimpy clothing and live just like Americans.

If muslims who come here carry islamic ideology, then why was Osama bin Laden not able to recruit any American muslims on 9/11 ?

The history of muslim immigrants to the west has resulted in a beneficial relationship, especially here in the US.

U.S. Average income is $42,158 per year (U.S. Census 2000)
66% of American Muslim HH's earn over $50,000 / year
26% of American Muslim HH's earn over $100,000 / year

ref : http://www.allied-media.com/AM/

ethoman, you stated :

You were not able to create a rational counter argument to DDA backed by any historical data analyzing conflict motivation and integrating that into the social model of Islamization, like DDA does. You never create a rational counter argument. You basically just throw out a few emotive responses as if you live in some sort of dream world stating over and over western society has more conflict in the last 100 years than Islamic ones.

Comment :

It is a fact that in the past 100 years, non-muslim countries have gone beyond their borders to wage wars compared to muslim countries that seldom have gone beyond their borders to wage war

ethoman, you stated :

Now for some choice Islamic texts.

-Muslims are encouraged to be wholly occupied (Sura 2:273) with fighting for Allah's cause.

Comment :

Here is video of an islamic militant accusing muslims outside a mosque of not going to jihad :

http://www.blip.tv/file/2760905

As I said before, all the islamic texts in the world are not going to persuade muslims to jihad just as almost all christians do not follow the pacifism of Jesus Christ.

Islam is not more powerful than christianity and is not able to override the free will of muslims, so that is the reason, just as christians do not obey their "religion" concerning pacifism, muslims do not follow their religion either concerning jihad.

Muslims can never turn the world into a global theocracy because almost all muslims are not working towards that goal as can be seen in the existence of numerous secular muslim countries which goes to show that muslims have differing agendas and goals and none of them are united in the purpose of a global theocracy and even at the height of islamic power, they were not able to conquer the world or even stay united as the islamic empire broke up continuously throughout history and the result today is the presence of 57 or so muslim countries

IN CLOSING :

I am sure you have heard of stories or read the news about your town's murders etc and most of them were done by non-muslims and probably non by Al-Qaeda so you are more in danger from your fellow citizens.

If you were living in a muslim country, there is a good chance you could be a victim of a muslim but at the same time, the murder rates in a place like Saudi Arabia (rank : 61) is much lower than in the US ( rank : 24) and several muslim countries have lower murder rates than the US.

In fact, the countries with the most murder rates, the top 12 are non-muslim.

ref : http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

ref : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Also, about 2000 annual murders of intimate partners in the US alone, compared to 5000 annual honor killings world wide.

ref : http://www.soundvision.com/Info/domesticviolence/statistics.asp

ref : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing

This site reminds me of the days when the media was busy discussing Monica Lewinsky's dress while Al-Qaeda was plotting to attack the US.

Instead of complaining about a tiny minority of muslims who will never pose a threat to western civilization, how about discussing the real threats to our security

Here is a partial list :

(1) American foreign policy

(2) poisons in everyday household items that can produce cancer

(3) Govt corruption in spending 68 cents of every tax dollar on the bloated, greedy, wasteful military/industrial pork laden, corporate welfare entitlement complex

(4) gang violence

(5) gun violence

(6) only 2% of imported food being inspected right now

(7) dangerous bridges

(8) Millions of consumers are being made ill, hundreds of thousands hospitalized and thousands are dying each year from preventable food borne illnesses," according to The Center for Science in the Public Interest. "Unfortunately, the FDA is saddled with outdated laws, and lacks the authority, tools and resources to fight unsafe food."

I am prosperous in my life because I have been blessed by God in being a peacemaker.

So be a peacemaker, and you will be blessed and no terrible thing will befall you because hate is like a cancer that can consume your soul and that is one reason people get cancer because their hate consumes them and they are vulnerable to all kinds of deadly diseases.

Spirit Wolf,

This site is mostly about fear mongering and gossip and does not give positive, pragmatic and practical solutions.

Painting with a broad brush that all muslims are evil because their religion is evil is exactly what Hitler did in demonizing jews due to their religion

and some white supremacist groups think of Jews as Christ killers even though almost all jews today would never think of killing anybody

big-pete , you stated :

There is no logical way to determine when a "good" muslim might go "bad". So, what's a kufr to do?

Comment:

The solution is simple.

(1) Co-opt all muslim leaders by putting them on the CIA payroll

(2) The US rendition program will apprehend all potentially dangerous militants and the next "hitler".

(3) Drastically change US foreign policy to approximate the foreign policy of Switzerland where no terrorist attacks take place

(4) Push for reforms in the muslim world so that all muslim countries will not have sharia, similar to the following muslim countries which are right now non-sharia :

NON-SHARIA STATES :

Burkina Faso
Chad
Gambia
Guinea
Mali
Senegal
Somalia
Kazakhstan
Kyrgystan
Tajikstan
Turkmenistan
Uzbekistan
Albania
Azerbaijan
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Kosovo
Turkey

(5) Support reformists and reform organizations in the muslim world, such as :

The Center Party of Egypt (Hizb ul-Wasat ), Turkey's ruling AKP Party, Tehreek i Insaf Party of Pakistan and Iran's Defenders of Human Rights Center are four of numerous muslim organizations and muslim reformers who don't hate muslims but want reformation in the muslim world.

Insulting Islam is not going to help matters as it is important to get 1.5 billion muslims on our side so that we can prevent the next terrorist attack and the way to prevent the next terrorist attack is to co-opt the muslim world by drastically changing US foreign policy which is now catered solely to enrich the rich and powerful in the bloated, corrupt, greedy military/industrial pork laden corporate welfare entitlement complex while the so called adults send our young and beloved soldiers to their deaths, all in the name of patriotism, honor and duty, during which time, the rich and powerful in the military/industrial complex "laugh all the way to the bank" to the tune of over a trillion dollars a year or 68 cents of every hard earned tax dollar

Winoceros,

Yes, the govt of Somalia does not follow Sharia and so do numerous other govts.

Reformation can be achieved by :

(1) Co-opt all muslim leaders by putting them on the CIA payroll

(2) The US rendition program will apprehend all potentially dangerous militants and the next "hitler".

(3) Drastically change US foreign policy to approximate the foreign policy of Switzerland where no terrorist attacks take place

(4) Push for reforms in the muslim world so that all muslim countries will not have sharia, similar to the following muslim countries which are right now non-sharia :

NON-SHARIA STATES :

Burkina Faso
Chad
Gambia
Guinea
Mali
Senegal
Somalia
Kazakhstan
Kyrgystan
Tajikstan
Turkmenistan
Uzbekistan
Albania
Azerbaijan
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Kosovo
Turkey

(5) Support reformists and reform organizations in the muslim world, such as :

The Center Party of Egypt (Hizb ul-Wasat ), Turkey's ruling AKP Party, Tehreek i Insaf Party of Pakistan and Iran's Defenders of Human Rights Center are four of numerous muslim organizations and muslim reformers who don't hate muslims but want reformation in the muslim world.

Insulting Islam is not going to help matters as it is important to get 1.5 billion muslims on our side so that we can prevent the next terrorist attack and the way to prevent the next terrorist attack is to co-opt the muslim world by drastically changing US foreign policy which is now catered solely to enrich the rich and powerful in the bloated, corrupt, greedy military/industrial pork laden corporate welfare entitlement complex while the so called adults send our young and beloved soldiers to their deaths, all in the name of patriotism, honor and duty, during which time, the rich and powerful in the military/industrial complex "laugh all the way to the bank" to the tune of over a trillion dollars a year or 68 cents of every hard earned tax dollar

So, dangerous bridges pose an ideological threat to western civilization? I rest my case. Silly at best ... the whole damn thing. Honestly. If you want to live in an Islamic country do so please.

gymgal

No, I didn't know; actually, I spent a very pleasant Sunday not thinking about 45ch AT ALL (it isn't hard to do). I went to church and then with my family I went into the country and visited my dad and gave him a birthday present and also spent a most enjoyable afternoon with my younger brother and his wife and four children on their little farm in a perfectly lovely part of Australia...it was a very hot day, so we ate watermelon and then we fed the skins to the PIGS. Wicked infidel that he is, my brother keeps a few pigs: he has a boy pig and two girl pigs and soon there will be More Pigs, and then in time there will be Bacon, Pork, and Ham. I should add that my brother has read Mr Spencer's 'Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam and the Crusades', and his wife has too, and they agree with me that Islam with its jihad doctrine is a Clear and Present Danger. But we didn't bother talking about that today. We just enjoyed each other's company; and leaned on the fence and admired the pigs.

45CH (does that stand for Christian Hater)

Eric, yes islam and US foreign policy can instigate a minority of people to violence, but we cannot indict an entire community of muslims for the bad acts of a few, just as Hitler should not have indicted an entire race of jews for the bad acts of a few jews"

What "bad acts" the Jews have given more to Western Civilisation than the whole of Islam over 1400 years despite being a minority. I do not see many Jewish Suicide bombers or them flying planes into towers or them proclaiming themselves superior to all other peoples. Yes I can indict an entire community of Muslims for thier actions precisely because this community will not indict this supposed minority or do anything at all to stop them. By the way your observation that "Hitler should not have indicted an entire race of jews" is taken by me to mean he had reason to endict them. In anycase your arguments are as spurious as they are stupid. Go wipe your arse on your holy Koran then post it to Allah.

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

Islam with its jihad doctrine is a Clear and Present Danger.

Comment :

How is Islam a clear and present danger ?

Every time a non-muslim criminal acts, does that mean his whole community is a clear and present danger ?

That is the exact thinking Hitler had whenever a jew committed a crime and his thinking was the entire community of jews was a clear and present danger for the criminal acts of a few jews.

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

You know, ladies and gentlemen, when I see '45ch' - who from all sorts of things s/he has said in other postings, under other monikers (e.g. 'loveverybody'), is most definitely a Mohammedan - putting on a 'Christian' mask and quoting a few passages of scripture at us, over and over and over, I am reminded, myself, of two *other* passages of Scripture: namely, Luke 4: 2-12 (especially 9-12), and Matthew 4:1-10, especially 5-7.

Comment :

Regarding Luke 4: 9-12 ( Matthew 4: 5-7 ):

All religions rely on the power of the sword to evangelize but not true christians and that does not mean christians are testing the Lord.

When the early christians did not retaliate against the terrorist Romans and when they submitted to the rule of the terrorist Romans, they were not testing the lord but obeying the Holy Spirit to evangelize without relying on the power of the sword.

To turn the hearts of muslims to Christ, the only way to evangelize is through the power of the Holy Spirit and not the power of the sword.

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

If 45ch thinks that by achieving 'the last word' - that is, the final posting on the thread, which it probably will, for the rest of us have many other things to discuss - s/he will achieve 'victory', s/he is sadly mistaken.

Comment :

Having the last word is not victory.

Victory is when children do not die in unnecessary wars instigated by the US govt

Victory is when our beloved soldiers are not sent deliberately into harm's way, all in the name of patriotism and honor while the rich and powerful in the military/industrial complex "laugh all the way to the bank ".

Victory is when christians start relying on the Holy Spirit rather than the power of the sword in order to evangelize

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

For us non-Muslims here (not only Christians but also Jews, atheists, agnostics, Hindus, and others) to observe and to publicly state that Major Nidal Hasan was - and repeatedly declared himself to be - motivated by the central doctrines of classical Islam, Islam of the Quran-Sira-Hadith, is not 'hate'. It is a plain description of observable documented fact, tantamount to stating that 2 + 2 = 4.

Comment :

From 1776 through 2009, how many American muslim soldiers have murdered their fellow soldiers ?

Out of about 3500 American muslim soldiers, how many murdered their fellow soldiers ?

Indicting all muslims for the criminal acts of one soldier is hate, just as Hitler indicted all jews for the supposed "criminal acts" of a few jews .

Major Nidal Hassan and Timothy McVeigh would probably have not committed their crimes if they were not exposed to the horrors of war and the adverse policies of the US govt.

Did religion play a role in Nidal's crimes ? I am sure it did but more then religion is seeing pitiful children in Iraq and Afghanistan being collateral victims of either US bombings or collateral victims of rebels who retaliate against fellow citizens who they suspect to be allies of the occupying power.

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

I shall repeat, from a posting I made above:

"The Nidal Hasan case - complete with his damning powerpoint presentation followed by actual practical demonstration - was a spectacular case of the Cat Getting Out Of The Bag. Or perhaps, Crocodile out of the bag, or Gremlin out of the Bag.

The Mohammedtrolls are trying hard to stuff it back in before anyone notices all those teeth and claws."

Comment :

The "teeth and claws" is human weakness in taking revenge for the collateral deaths of children in wars instigated by the US govt.

Indicting all muslims for the criminal acts of a few is hate, just as Hitler indicted all jews for the criminal acts of a few.

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

QUOTE "...a major, twofold fact transforms the jihad into something quite different from traditional wars, waged for ambition and self-interest, with limited objectives, where the "normal" situation is peace between peoples - war, in itself, constituting a dramatic event which must end in a return to peace.

Comment :

Peace is the normal situation among most muslim nations as almost all muslim nations have not gone beyond their borders in the past 100 years, as compared to non-muslim nations who have gone to wars beyond their borders.

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

"This twofold fact is, first, the religious nature [of the jihad]; then, secondly, the fact that war has become an institution (and no longer an "event").

Comment :

The fact is that in the past 100 years, war is not an institution among almost all muslim countries

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

"Jihad is generally translated as "holy war" (this term is not satisfactory); and this suggests both that this war is provoked by strong religious feeling, and then that its first object is not so much to conquer land as to Islamize the populations.

Comment :

There are millions of non-muslims living in peace in muslim countries without being forced to become muslims.

Does it mean its a perfect situation ? off course not.

anytime there are minorities in any country, the majority will sometimes take advantage of and even persecute as has been seen in the persecution of blacks in America as late as the 60s through Jim Crowe laws and even lynchings.

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

"This war is a religious duty.

Comment :

Here is a video where a militant muslim is accusing muslims outside a mosque of not going to jihad:

http://www.blip.tv/file/2760905

Islam is not more powerful than Christianity and since christians do not follow the pacifism of Christ, almost all muslims do not go to jihad because both Christianity and Islam are not able to override the free will of their followers.

Just as almost all christians do not follow Christ's pacifism, almost all muslims do not follow the call to jihad.

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

"In Islam, on the contrary, jihad is a religious obligation.

Comment :

Pacifism is a "religious" obligation of all christians, but how many follow Christ's pacifism ?

Likewise, Islam is not more powerful than christianity and is not able to override the free will of muslims, so that is the reason,just as christians do not obey their "religion" concerning pacifism, muslims do not follow their religion either concerning jihad.

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

"It [Jihad] forms part of the duties that the believer must fulfil;

"it is Islam's *normal* {Ellul's emphasis - dda} path to expansion.

"And this is found repeatedly, dozens of times in the Koran.

Comment :

There is no evidence that almost all muslims are involved in jihad, just as there is no evidence that all christians are involved in pacifism as commanded by Christ.

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

"Therefore, the believer is not denying the religious message. Quite the reverse, jihad is the way he best obeys it.

Comment :

As I said before, there is no evidence that almost all muslims are involved in jihad, just as there is no evidence that almost all christians are pacifists as Christ was.

Both Islam and Christianity are not able to override the free will of their believers and that is why believers in both religions are not obeying their respective religions concerning either pacifism or jihadism.

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

"But Bat Ye'or shows that things are not so simple. Since the jihad is not solely an external war, it can break out within the Muslim world itself - and wars among Muslims have been numerous, but always with the same features.

Comment :

Wars among muslims is true.

Muslims have always been disunited and that is no way there is going to be a worldwide islamic caliphate because muslims even at the height of islamic power ended up breaking into different countries and eventually there are about 57 muslim countries today since muslims have always had differing goals and agendas

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

"The world [for Muslims], as Bat Ye'or brilliantly shows, is divided into two regions: the dar al-Islam and the dar al-harb - in other words, the "domain of Islam" and "the domain of war".

Comment :

In the past 100 years, almost all muslim countries have remained within the "domain of islam" as compared to non-muslim countries that have waged war beyond their borders.

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

"The world is no longer divided into nations, peoples, or tribes.

Comment :

The world is divided and it will always be divided, just as muslims are divided to the extent there does exist about 57 muslim countries today.

Even at the height of islamic power, the islamic empire started breaking up and eventually we have about 57 muslim countries today due to the fact that muslims have always been disunited, so there will never be one united world wide islamic caliphate.

The existence of nations speaks to the differing ideologies and the economic interests of the rich and powerful within each country.

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

"Rather, they are all located en bloc in the world of war, where war is the only possible relationship with the outside world.

" The earth belongs to Allah and all its inhabitants must acknowledge this reality; to achieve this goal there is but one method: war.

Comment :

War has been more of a theme from non-muslim nations these past 100 years than compared to war from muslim nations

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

"War, then, is clearly an institution, not just an incidental or fortuitous institution, but a constituent part of the thought, the organization and the structures of this world.

Comment :

War has been more of an institution among non-muslim countries these past 100 years than from muslim countries

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

"Peace with this world of war is impossible. Of course it is sometimes necessary to call a halt; there are circumstances where it is better not to make war. The Koran allows for this. But this changes nothing: war remains an institution, which means that it must resume as soon as circumstances permit.

Comment :

Peace is possible, as seen by the fact that almost all 57 muslim countries have not gone beyond their borders these past 100 years as compared to the war mongering of non-muslim nations these past 100 years

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

"I have greatly stressed the characteristics of this war, because there is so much talk nowadays of the tolerance and fundamental pacifism of Islam that it is necessary to recall its nature, which is fundamentally warlike! " END EXCERPT FROM ELLUL ON JIHAD.

Q. E. D, at Fort Hood, earlier this month

Comment :

We have to look at what muslims are actually doing rather then the texts of their religion, just as we should be looking at what jews are actually doing rather than looking at the text of Deut 20:16 which commands Jews to conquer lands up to Iraq and to commit genocide on all men, women, children and babies living within the "promised land".

By what muslims are actually doing, it is fair to say that almost all muslims are not involved in jihad except for a tiny minority who can never conquer the world or even a single muslim country.

CONCLUSION :

The fact is that American Presidents, including President Reagan, have been informed by the CIA that Saudi Arabia is not dangerous to world peace and that is why the US govt has ties to Saudi Arabia and numerous other muslim countries that are not a danger to world peace.

I can assure you, you are more in danger from your fellow citizens than any muslim terrorist

And you are more in danger from everyday household items or foods that you eat that can have deadly consequences either in the short term or long term.

And you are more in danger of getting cancer because cancer is the result of hate that consumes the soul.

So you would be better off concentrating on the true dangers to your health and safety and not "cooked up dangers from Islam" that only benefit the profit agenda of the bloated, greedy, corrupt military/industrial pork laden corporate welfare entitlement complex where here in the US the complex is looting the US govt of 68 cents of every hard earned tax dollar amounting to over a trillion dollars a year

Ethoman,

I would be comfortable living in most non-sharia muslim countries and even the sharia states of Malaysia.

Here are some videos about muslim countries :

(1) jews and muslims praying together

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVEt-hOQytQ&feature=related

(2) Australians and Islam

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbwvwRkVtPI&feature=channel

(3) Saudi women seem to be happy in Saudi Arabia

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnWroPVmAQE&feature=related

(4) A happy Malaysian muslim

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxM8uSZ4fL4&feature=related

(5) Why do Australians convert to Islam ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kzbZsg9Uao&feature=related

(6) Egypt taking one step to reform Islam

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxGPaEZPY9o&feature=channel

(7) Saudi girls are not all covered up

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLWZZ58YF0I&NR=1

And numerous other videos either praising muslim countries or non-muslims in muslim countries happy to live in them

winceros,

I am noticing a curious phenomena in the muslim world, especially in Saudi Arabia ( micro evolution at work )

Over a thousand years of wearing conservative clothing and conservative upbringing has literally changed their faces !!!!

some of these Saudi girls look like angels :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLWZZ58YF0I&NR=1

"Peace is possible, as seen by the fact that almost all 57 muslim countries have not gone beyond their borders these past 100 years as compared to the war mongering of non-muslim nations these past 100 years."

Pakistan, a Muslim country, in 1971,attacked Bengladesh killing over 2 million people, mostly targeting the Hindu population.

Indonesia, a Muslim country invaded East Timor in 1975, and virtually killed of a quater of the largely Christian population.

Other examples: Turkey's invasion of Armenia (1920) and Cyprus (1974). The invasion of the Arab armies into Israel (1948), the cross border attacks on the refugee camps in Chad by Sudanese Arabs (-2009). The Iranian-sponsored terrorist attack in Buenos Aires (2006), Libyan attack on a discoteque in West Germany (1986). Somali invasion of Ethiopia (1977-1978, Saudi backed al-Qeda attack in Kenya (1998).

No you're right, they're good people.

Hesperado,

Making peace between muslims and non-muslims is important because that helps both communities fight the real enemies, the terrorists.

here is a video of an American saying its a joy to be around muslims in Saudi Arabia :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfNrGXSX7Xc&NR=1

thank_g_im_an_infidel

I never said that muslim countries have never gone to war these past 100 years.

I was comparing the frequency of the number of times non-muslim countries have gone beyond their borders to wage war, compared to muslim countries.

And if you compare the number of genocides in non-muslim countries with that of muslim countries, in the past hundred years, there have been more than one hundred million people killed under genocide in non-muslim countries, as compared to muslim countries

ref : ref : http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/dictat.html

ericthekuffar, you stated :

45CH (does that stand for Christian Hater)

Comment :

CH does not stand for Christian Hater.

Hate is not healthy and can lead to disease and even premature death.

The Word states that a joyful heart is good medicine

What is your definition of hate ?

Hate consumes your soul like a cancer and sometimes cancer does strike those who hate.

ericthekuffar, you stated :

Eric, yes islam and US foreign policy can instigate a minority of people to violence, but we cannot indict an entire community of muslims for the bad acts of a few, just as Hitler should not have indicted an entire race of jews for the bad acts of a few jews"

What "bad acts" the Jews have given more to Western Civilisation than the whole of Islam over 1400 years despite being a minority.

Comment :

All religions, except christianity have advocated violence and even genocide in the case of Judaism ( Deut 20:16), but that does not mean people should indict an entire race or the community of believers for what their religion says.

For example, Jews committed genocide on men, women , children and babies according to commands in Deut 20:16 but does that mean that jews are guilty today of those crimes ?

Some white supremacist groups refer to jews as Christ killers; how is that statement justified when today's jews have nothing to do with the small minority of jews who did instigate the Romans to kill Christ ?

ericthekuffar, you stated :

I do not see many Jewish Suicide bombers or them flying planes into towers or them proclaiming themselves superior to all other peoples.

Comment :

yes, a tiny minority of muslims do resort to violence based on injustice that they perceive or based on witnessing their own family being victims of either US bombings, Israeli bombings or bombings by allies of the US/Israeli govt but nobody should be like Hitler, indicting an entire race for the wrongs done by a few.

ericthekuffar, you stated :

Yes I can indict an entire community of Muslims for thier actions precisely because this community will not indict this supposed minority or do anything at all to stop them.

Comment :

So what is the difference between Hitler who indicted all jews for the wrongs done by a few jews ? and those who indict all muslims for the wrongs done by a few muslims ?

Here is a list of muslims and muslim organizations that condemned the terrorist attacks on 9/11/01 :

http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php

ericthekuffar, you stated :

By the way your observation that "Hitler should not have indicted an entire race of jews" is taken by me to mean he had reason to endict them. In anycase your arguments are as spurious as they are stupid.

Comment :

Some believe that modern terrorism was born in the minds of jewish terrorists, see the video below.

Hitler had no reason to indict an entire race of people for the wrongs done by a few jews.

Yes, a few jews still carry the "genocidal" mentality that their forefathers committed in Deut 20:16, but that is a tiny minority of jews :

ref : http://uk.truveo.com/The-Age-of-Terror-Open/id/2889600655

Hitler was influenced by the extremism of some Jews , for example :

Max Mandelstam, World Zionist Congress, in July 1898 stated :

"The Jews energetically reject the idea of fusion with the other nationalities and cling firmly to their historical hope of world empire..."

ref : http://www.vanguardnewsnetwork.com/v1/mjc1b.htm

Winoceros - brilliant! You have described this particular Dementor's mode of operation perfectly.

(And note that its posting addressed to me, Nov 22 8.30 am, proves you right, in spades).

Hugh - given that most of what our Mohammedan dementor was "replying" to, in the particular posting I'd made, consisted of the words of Jacques Ellul (words that I, of course, quoted because I fully concurred with them and wished to share them with others), it might have been more correct to say 'Jacques Ellul 163, 45ch 0'...

My using Jacques Ellul to answer the 'arguments' of that creature was, of course, perhaps a little excessive: rather like using a steam-hammer to crack a nut.

Spirit Wolf - you observed, above, in response to our Mohammedtroll '45ch', that -

"Just because there are other problems in the world, does not invalidate the reason behind this site, any more than sites about gang violence must shut down because there is drunk drivers to worry about, or animal rights/welfare sites should shut down because there are starving kids in Africa, or that children's welfare sites should shut down because of global warming."

Exactly. Beautifully put. And a good argument for the rest of us to remember, and keep up our sleeves in order to use on anyone else we may encounter in future who attempts '45ch's line in deflections.

"Re. Muslim hostility toward Christians (as demonstrated amply in the posted article) and of course toward all other non-Muslims as well:"

Yeah, and of course we are all just a bunch of "haters" for disliking a faith that specifically mentions and targets us for subjugation, and or acts of religiously motivated violence. I find it offensive to be called a "hater" for disliking that which considers me subhuman.

45ch

I appreciate that you express concern for any misconceptions about Muslims or generalizations made about them and then finish your last post by referencing a white supremacist website in order to backup your claim about the Jews. I hope the irony isn't lost on you.

yes, a tiny minority of muslims do resort to violence based on injustice that they perceive or based on witnessing their own family being victims of either US bombings, Israeli bombings or bombings by allies of the US/Israeli govt

Would it make the Muslims feel better if the Israelis and Americans said they were bombing the Muslims to avenge the humiliation and injustices endured by their brethren at the hands of the Muslims?

Hesperado,

It is a fact that in the past hundred years, more non-muslim countries have gone to wars beyond their borders compared to the frequency of wars started beyond their borders by muslim countries.

Hundreds of years ago the islamic empire did try to expand and non-muslim empires were aggressive and both islamic and non-islamic empires acted out of self interest and selfishness.

Yes, at one time, the Pope authorized Spain and Portugal to take over the world but even as world powers, Spain and Portugal were not able to conquer the world.

It is human nature to acquire as much money and power as possible and both muslim and non-muslim empires have shown their greed for power and money but to say that its all the fault of islam or that islam is somehow more expansionist than any other ideology is what contributes to the spread of hate, similar to what Hitler did when he just singled out an entire race of jews as though all jews thought alike like ants or like robots without any free will.

Guilt by association is what all murderers do and we have a lot of that in jihad watch.

Fear mongering leads to hate and hate can lead to violence.

Reported crimes against Muslims decreased from 156 to 115, 8.2 percent of the religion-based crimes.

This is still more than four times the number of hate crimes reported against Muslims in 2000.

ref : http://www.civilrights.org/publications/hatecrimes/nature-and-magnitude.html

The misdirection 45ch attempts, comparing numerical acts of violence, which you properly put into historical relevance by illustrating the fact that militarily there hasn't been anything near parity between Muslims, and non-Muslims for the most part in the last 100 years. In addition he never ties the motivations behind the violence he illustrates into a congruent argument in regards to theology and immigration. Most, if not all of it is out of context unless he can do that little trick.

Ironically the latest Islamic resurgence, Wahabism (if you want to call it that) is tied to a more strict interpretation of Islam in order to make social/military gain, which is what led to the retardation of Islamic society to begin with. It has been a long hard process of intellectual decay since Avencina. The funny thing is that the Islamic world is repeating its mistakes, if left alone they will just self retard like they always have. Their scholars can contemplate the elixir effects of camel urine for all I care.

thank_g_im_an_infidel, you stated :

I appreciate that you express concern for any misconceptions about Muslims or generalizations made about them and then finish your last post by referencing a white supremacist website in order to backup your claim about the Jews. I hope the irony isn't lost on you.

Comment :

The reference to the "white supremacist" website was not a claim against Jews but rather an acknowledgement that a tiny minority of jews, just as a tiny minority of muslims or any other group have selfish interests at heart.

Behind every genocide, there is a complaint against the victims of that genocide and the complaint is legitimate against a tiny minority but to claim that the majority is just like the tiny minority leads to evil, murder and genocide.

I in no way claim that all jews think like the tiny minority of jews who do have selfish interests at heart.

But here in Jihad Watch, that seems to be the agenda and that is painting with a broad brush that all muslims think like the tiny minority of muslims who are criminals.

thank_g_im_an_infidel, you stated :

yes, a tiny minority of muslims do resort to violence based on injustice that they perceive or based on witnessing their own family being victims of either US bombings, Israeli bombings or bombings by allies of the US/Israeli govt

Would it make the Muslims feel better if the Israelis and Americans said they were bombing the Muslims to avenge the humiliation and injustices endured by their brethren at the hands of the Muslims?

Comment :

Here again, both sides ( example : Israeli/US govt and the terrorists ) use the same reasoning that went through Hitler's mind and that is if one of their children dies due to a bombing, all the people on the other side are guilty and so war is justified and the mass killing of people on the other side is justified

but the sad fact is that the force used on innocent muslims is enormously disproportionate to the deaths of innocent Israelis/Americans.

Its what you call the cycle of violence

The way to stop any cycle of violence is for the aggressor to negotiate a peace pact with the political wing of the reactionary/terrorist forces so that further blood shed can be avoided

ethoman, you stated :

Yeah, and of course we are all just a bunch of "haters" for disliking a faith that specifically mentions and targets us for subjugation, and or acts of religiously motivated violence. I find it offensive to be called a "hater" for disliking that which considers me subhuman.

Comment :

You might not hate muslims, but you are sowing the seeds of hate in others to hate muslims.

Nothing wrong with disliking a faith and nothing wrong in criticizing another person's faith but what is wrong is saying that all muslims think alike and they all want to subjugate you and they all think of you as subhuman

and this way of thinking is exactly the same way hitler and other mass murderers thought and that leads to fear mongering which in turn leads to hate and acts of violence

DDA,

Hitler had the same thinking that some in Jihad Watch have and that is painting with a broad brush an entire race of Jews for the criminal acts of a few jews.

There are criminals in every religion and to say that all members of that religion think like criminals is exactly what Hitler and other mass murderers did.

Fear mongering leads to hate and hate can lead to violence

Reported crimes against Muslims decreased from 156 to 115, 8.2 percent of the religion-based crimes.

This is still more than four times the number of hate crimes reported against Muslims in 2000.

ref : http://www.civilrights.org/publications/hatecrimes/nature-and-magnitude.html

Why can't you make a point without mentioning Hitler? Believe it or not he doesn't actually work as a good example for everyone of your arguments.

Hesperado, you stated :

45ch ignored my main point, as usual: Muslims are not engaging in flagrant full-scale military expansionism in the present only because they are incapable, not because they don't want to. If they could, they would. But they can't, so they ain't.

Comment :

So when is Pakistan going to use their nuclear weapons ? what are they waiting for ?

Muslims are just like you and me, no different.

Some are criminals but the overwhelming majority of them are not.

Have you met any muslims in your life ?

They are just as human and have feelings just like you and I do.

As for full-scale military expansionism , all empires in past centuries had selfish interests at heart.

How do you explain the Pope authorizing Spain and Portugal to divide the world amongst themselves ?

All cultures in past centuries were expansionist as was the US govt in trying to conquer Canada and did conquer Hawaii etc

Do you have any proof that what happened in past centuries is still the desire of all muslim countries today ?

and if so, what is the solution and why are muslims so disunited as evidenced by the existence of 57 or so muslim countries today and why is Pakistan not using its nuclear weapons ?

45ch,

All we are doing is telling the truth about contemporary Islamic theology. It may well be true that there is a spectrum of opinion among Muslims in regards to subjugating non-Muslims, and the supremacy of Muslims over non-Muslims but that doesn't change the primacy of the truth in regards to established Islamic norms. In effect by our own admission Muslims who believe that non-Muslims are equal are not adhering to the letter of their own faith, not because of it, which is a real big problem. I will agree that it is a dangerous truth, but what is more dangerous is ignoring it, like the media, and our government. Nothing good can come out of our current immigration policies in regards to Islamic populations, and ignoring the reality of their Ideological threat. It is my position that if you see the threat, you stop the influx, you stop the influx, you prevent the catastrophe, which ignoring reality will present. This is just the horrible honest truth. Unfortunately no matter what I say, reality will continue to grind on, so don't blame hate for Muslims on people like me who will tell the truth about Islamic norms. Blame it on ignorant immigration policies, and people like you who would rather hide the truth, in their false sense of justice, thereby preventing the obvious changes required.

So your solution is to expel all muslims, just as Hitler wanted to expel all jews ?

Not exactly, I wouldn't endorse killing anyone. I know not talking about reality does not change it. Halting Islamic immigration would be a big first step in solving the problem in my opinion. Perhaps all of the liberal Muslims in the west can immigrate back to their "lands" and start the reformation process where it will do the most good.

Hesperado,

Expulsion of Jews was preferred by Hitler.

The number of emigrating Jews surged as those who were able left the country, and this was a desirable outcome for the Nazi party.

In the ten months following Kristallnacht, more than 115,000 Jews emigrated from the Reich. The majority went to other European countries, the US and Palestine, and at least 14,000 made it to Shanghai.

ref : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristallnacht#Expulsion_of_Polish_Jews

Ethoman,

How do you explain the fact that numerous muslim countries do not follow Sharia ? and are not subjugating non-muslims and yet you believe that muslims want to subjugate you in America ?

Hesperado, you stated :

45ch ignored my main point, as usual: Muslims are not engaging in flagrant full-scale military expansionism in the present only because they are incapable, not because they don't want to. If they could, they would. But they can't, so they ain't.

Comment :

Muslims are not even following Sharia as evidenced by numerous muslim countries not having sharia and yet you believe that they are determined to conquer the world despite being disunited as evidenced by the presence of about 57 muslim countries ?

Muslims have had 1400 years to conquer the world and if it has not happened by now, how is it ever going to happen, especially when muslims are disunited as evidenced by the presence of 57 different muslim countries with differing agendas and goals ?

Yes, a tiny number of terrorists do want an islamic empire but even they are not speaking of world wide conquest because they know that islam, even at the height of its power, started breaking up due to muslim disunity and that empire kept breaking and eventually became the present 57 or so muslim countries today.

Is Pakistan going to use its nuclear weapons for world conquest ?

45ch

How would you explain the many Muslim countries that do practice sharia, and do commit religiously motivated acts of discrimination against non-Muslims as required by Islamic norms enshrined in the Hadith, and Qura?. How would you explain the many Muslims who openly advocate the implementation of sharia in the U.S., Brittan, and the west in general? I suppose I would get these ideas through 2 of my main sensory input devices, otherwise known as eyes, and ears.

Davegreybeard,

Insulting anybody's religion is not the best way to solve a problem.

The solution is simple :

(1) Co-opt all muslim leaders and have them on the CIA payroll

(2) Use the US rendition program to go after truly dangerous individuals and the next "hitler"

(3) Drastically change the US govt's foreign policy to approximate that of Switzerland's foreign policy where no terrorist attacks take place

(4) Push for reforms in the muslim world to approximate the numerous muslim countries that do not have sharia as the law

(5) Implement the 28 point peace plan :

http://www.bernardgoldberg.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=30488&p=83949#p83949

IN CLOSING :

Centuries of fear mongering by politicians has resulted in the tremendous expansion of government, ever since the founding fathers started deficit spending on the revolutionary war to "free" themselves from Great Britain.

Would the American people have paid for the revolutionary war out of their own pockets ? ... They probably would have told the founding fathers to be as patient as the Canadians and not rebel against Britain.

Today, because 68 cents of every tax dollar goes to the military/industrial complex, its inevitable that the special interests from the military/industrial complex will have the biggest influence on the US govt. and that is why the US govt has a military solution to problems rather than trying to save trillions through pragmatic negotiations, diplomacy and inexpensive covert operations.

Ref : http://www.bu.edu/globalbeat/syndicate/anglewicz-brauer062005.html

The following is one example of a very expensive military solution to the events of 9/11 when pragmatic, covert, diplomatic efforts and a hundred million dollar financial incentive to the Taliban could have easily apprehended Osama bin Laden, marginalized his influence in the muslim world and saved trillions on the "war on terror".

We could easily have prevented the September 11 terrorist attacks, if we had done the following :

(1) Not got involved with the "Muhjahadeen" to oust the Soviet Union from Afghanistan....

..Osama Bin Laden's life was transformed by the experience he had in Afghanistan.

You could say his ideas of jihad were "born again" in Afghanistan and the aid the US gave the Muhjahadeen went a long way to helping this "born again" experience.

Osama Bin Laden himself stated that the ousting of the Soviet Union was the will of Allah (he did not mention that without the US, he would not have been able to oust the Soviet Union from Afghanistan)

and this so-called "Will of Allah " experience against the Soviet Union encouraged him immensely and gave him the courage to later go after the US but if Bin Laden was defeated in Afghanistan against the Soviets ( which was very possible if the US did not help ) then Bin Laden might have concluded that it was not Allah's will to go after super powers,

or Bin Laden might to this day still be too busy fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan and not been able to use Afghanistan as a training base for attacks on the US and/or in Kashmir.

(2) Not got involved in ousting Saddam Hussein from Kuwait, restoring the cruel dictatorship in Kuwait and protecting the cruel dictatorship in Saudi Arabia who live hedonistic lifestyles.

Saddam Hussein was anti-religious and ready to sell oil to the West.

In fact during the oil embargo of the seventies, when Arab nations restricted the sale of oil, Saddam Hussein went against the embargo and sold oil to the west.

According to the Duelfer Report, Saddam in the late nineties, through his officials, told Charles Duelfer (special adviser to the CIA) that he wanted to start a dialogue with the US and wanted to be America's best friend in the Middle East.

If Saddam Hussein were to have taken over the middle east (which is next to impossible), he would have eradicated fundamentalist Islam that breeds terrorism, checked the regional aspirations of Iran and sold cheap oil to the US.

President Reagan told Saddam Hussein to stop supporting Palestinian groups in the early eighties and then President Reagan removed Iraq from the list of state sponsors of terrorism.........this is another of several examples that Saddam wanted to be our ally.

The CIA knew about the consequences of the Iraq war and the subsequent sectarian violence and yet the US government invaded Iraq, even though during the 80s when Saddam Hussein was at his worst and actually using WMD, there was not one CIA report stating that Saddam Hussein was a threat to the US.

(3) Not sanctioned Iraq....

..Osama Bin Laden points to UN reports, rightly or wrongly, that our sanctions on Iraq was the cause of half a million Iraqi children dying prematurely.

(4) not sold weapons to Israel...

...Osama Bin Laden points to the fact, rightly or wrongly, that American made weapons were used by the Israelis to kill Palestinian men, women and children through collateral damage

(5) reinforced cockpit doors and had air marshals on every flight, like Israel did long time ago.

(6) Not setting up bases in Saudi Arabia.

IF WE HAD NOT GOT INVOLVED IN THE GULF WAR, WE WOULD NOT HAVE HAD TROOPS IN SAUDI ARABIA..

The presence of US troops was the "straw that broke the camel's back".

What did Osama Bin Laden see in the presence of US troops in Saudi Arabia ?

The only way to see what Osama Bin Laden saw is to go back in time to read and see what Osama read and saw.

What motivated Osama Bin Laden to declare "war" on the US govt ?

Here are the main motivations in chronological order :

(1) Osama Bin Laden read about the US govt. fire and atom bombing Japan in 1945 when Japan was already defeated as early as July of 1944 when Tojo resigned and Japan was negotiating concessions to the communists but FDR did not care about communists either killing tens of millions of civilians or that the crushing of Japan enabled communism to expand in Asia resulting in hundreds of thousands of US soldiers either dying horrifying deaths or being maimed, disfigured, deformed, blinded or paralyzed for life during the cold war.

(2) Osama Bin Laden must have read about US/Allied POWs in Japan and hundreds of thousands of Japanese children being terrorized, tortured and burned alive in the US fire and atom bombings of Japan and must have concluded that if the FDR/Truman did not care about the plight of their own US soldiers captive in Japan and the lives of hundreds of thousands of Japanese children, why should Osama bin Laden care about lives when strategic goals were more important.

(3) Osama Bin Laden read about the US government in the 50s overthrowing a democratically elected Mossadegh of Iran and eventually the Shah terrorized his own people in Iran, thanks to the military support given by the US government

(4) He read about the US government in the 60s, arming the Israeli government that used those very US weapons to collaterally kill palestinian children and babies

(5) He saw the US government in the 70s using napalm, agent orange and carpet bombing Vietnam and Cambodia, collaterally killing hundreds of thousands or even millions.

(6) He saw the US government in the 70s supporting cruel, murderous dictators like the Shah of Iran.

(7) He saw the US government in the 80s siding with the "christian" militias in Lebanon, the very christian militias that massacred muslims.

(8) He saw the US government in the 80s supporting cruel dictators like Saddam Hussein.

(9) He saw the US government in the 90s imposing cruel sanctions on Iraq, resulting in UN reports stating that half a million Iraqi children died prematurely due to the sanctions.

(10) He saw that the cruel Saudi dictatorship was being supported by the US government , the very dictatorship that tortured dissidents who opposed the stationing of US troops in Saudi Arabia.

(11) He saw that the US government never left any country in which it had troops in ( example: US troops still present in Germany and Japan, even after the war had ended decades ago).

(12) He saw that warnings to the US government to withdraw its troops from Saudi Arabia were ignored.

(13) He saw that the only way to get US troops out of Saudi Arabia was to launch a terror campaign.

(14) He saw that his terror campaign against the US had failed and US troops still remained in Saudi Arabia, 9 years after the gulf war had ended.

(15) He saw that the only sure way to get the US government to withdraw its troops from Saudi Arabia was to launch an attack on the US homeland on 9/11/01.

(16) He saw that the US government finally gave into his demands to withdraw troops, only after the 9/11 attacks, and US troops finally left Saudi Arabia in 2003, almost 13 years after the gulf war had ended


...Placing our troops in Saudi Arabia deeply affected Osama Bin Laden and the Saudi religious leadership because of the historical record of the US govt. in its dealings in the middle east and elsewhere.

An analogous way of looking at it would be America's involvement in Korea, Vietnam and Afghanistan because the Soviets had their "presence" in those countries and America was afraid communism would spread if the Soviets were allowed to have their presence in Vietnam, Korea and Afghanistan and thinking along the same lines, Al-Qaeda does not want American military presence in any Muslim country, especially "holy" Saudi Arabia because Osama was afraid the US govt would continue supporting the cruel Saudi dictatorship's crack down on dissidents.

So just as America was trying to prevent communism from spreading by being militarily involved in Korea, Vietnam and Afghanistan; Al-Qaeda wants to get "militarily" involved in preventing the US govt's support of cruel dictators in the middle east.

THIS IS THE MAIN REASON FOR THE SEPTEMBER 11 ATTACKS.....AMERICAN MILITARY PRESENCE IN SAUDI ARABIA and the subsequent imprisonment and torture of Saudi dissidents by the cruel Saudi dictatorship that provoked Osama Bin Laden to act.



Some of the points above is about perception based on facts that might have been blown all out of proportion in the minds of the radicals in the Middle East, but in the end, perception is what motivates people to commit horrendous acts.

Al-Qaida's wrong perception about the US, makes it not able to differentiate between the actions of the US government and its citizens because in Al-Qaida's mind, since we are a democracy, every citizen is responsible for the actions of our government .


We have read about numerous cases in the US in which loving fathers in our non-war zone and trauma-less America have nonetheless terrorized, tortured and killed their own children or pregnant wives, either through suffocation, drowning, hanging, beheading, stabbings or shootings,

so is it surprising that in Iraq or Afghanistan today, in the trauma of a war zone, where numerous victims see their loved ones being killed or blinded, maimed, deformed or paralyzed or disfigured for life due to either US bombings or sectarian violence, that those victims are vulnerable to Al-Qaida's propaganda which is able to influence the victims to take revenge and kill Muslims allied with the US or collaterally/accidentally kill Muslim children in the process of attacking US forces or Shia militias ?

If you were in a war zone and you see your family murdered by rebels or collaterally killed by the occupying force, knowing that you do not compromise with injustice , what would you do ?

When a foreign power occupies another country or when separatist movements reject the govt., it tends to result in terrorism, as was seen by the torture that many loyalist Americans/British went through by being tarred ( boiling tar being poured on them) because they were seen as loyal to the occupying British forces by the American rebels.

Another form of terrorism was the killing of british troops by the American rebels, after the British troops had surrendered.

ref : http://home.golden.net/~marg/bansite/banecdotes/96quarter.html

Lynchings were ordered by American Patriot Judge Charles Lynch on the terrorized American loyalists who were loyal to the British Crown.

So terrorism can be the result of being in a war zone and its either terrorism from the occupying force through collateral actions or the terrorism of the rebels against those loyal to the occupying force.

The fact that most American loyalists, who were loyal to Britain, fled the US, shows the terror they faced, not only from being tarred or properties confiscated but being lynched to death.

ref : http://www.redcoat.me.uk/

The following four examples is about the other side of the perception coin;

the US govt.'s perception of foreigners and the US govt.'s inability to differentiate between different groups of foreigners or unwillingness to care about foreign children as they would care about American children :

(1) An example of the US govt.'s perception and its inability to differentiate between a small group of evil people and the innocent population at large can be seen in the deliberate terrorizing, torture and burning alive or blinding, maiming, disfiguring, deforming or paralyzing for life, hundreds of thousands of babies and children in the fire bombings of scores of Japanese cities and the atom bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki during World War Two in 1945 when Japan was already defeated and ready to surrender conditionally as early as August of 1944.

(2) The deliberate allied carpet bombing of Dresden during World War Two with the foreknowledge that the bombing will terrorize and kill or blind, maim, disfigure or deform for life, tens of thousands of Dresden's children is another example of the inability or unwillingness to differentiate between the small group of evil Nazis and the population at large.

(3) Another example of the US govt.'s perception and its inability to differentiate between different Arab groups can be seen in the US govt.'s propaganda that influenced a large percentage of Americans to believe that Saddam Hussein was connected to Al-Qaida and was behind the attacks on September 11, 2001.

(4) Another example of the US govt.'s perception and its inability to differentiate between terrorists and other Arabs, resulted in the rejection of Dubai ports ( An Arab company) from operating in the US .

The inability or unwillingness to differentiate between a small group of terrorists and the larger innocent population is what leads both the US government and terrorists like Timothy McVeigh to launch attacks which result in either the collateral/accidental deaths of millions of civilians, children and babies in the case of US attacks (from 1776 through the wars of the 18th, 19th, 20th and 21st centuries) or in the case of terrorists, the deliberate murder of civilians without any thought about who will die due to their attacks.

Propensity towards war can also be traced to crisis that are either instigated or exploited and that results in the festering of the problem which can be used to scare the American public into not complaining about 68 cents of every tax dollar going to the profit agenda of the bloated, wasteful, corrupt military/industrial pork laden corporate welfare entitlement complex and in return for the trillion dollar yearly budget to the military/industrial complex, the fear mongering politicians are assured of being re-elected due to contributions from their friends in the military/industrial complex and the hundreds of thousands of employees of the military/industrial complex that purposely makes sure that its facilities are spread out among numerous congressional districts in order to maintain the loyalty of its puppets in the US government.

The reason the US government lets a problem fester is because that is the only way the US government can expand because only during a crisis do the American people suspend all reasonable logic and give their power over to the US government and THAT IS HOW THE US GOVT. HAS GROWN OVER THE CENTURIES BY EXPLOITING EVERY CRISIS.

The military/industrial complex cannot be overlooked because the US government is structured around the corporate interests of the military/industrial complex thus giving rise to the entire machinery of government being geared towards war and military solutions instead of non-military solutions to problems and the resulting flourishing of no bid contracts and war profiteering (eg. the unnecessary cold war expenditures that ended up costing the American taxpayers about 5.5 trillion dollars i.e five hundred thousand million dollars plus ten times that same amount )

instead of directing valuable resources to useful projects in order to have :

All 100% of cargo on aircraft and ships inspected by bomb detection equipment instead of the 6-10% of cargo being inspected today

a much safer railway system using the latest radar and laser technology to prevent crashes,

latest parachute technology to prevent air crashes,

safe gang free environment,

gun violence free environment

and criminal activity free environment in our cities,

affordable health care,

affordable high quality education,

safe food by having all food sources inspected instead of only 2% of imported food being inspected right now

safe water, air and environment (example : free radon tests to prevent cancer ),

congestion free roads,

roads without pot holes,

bridges that are not dangerous,

levees that do not break,

utilities that are not overworked and that create outages,

more intensive medical research that cures cancer,
prevents/cures heart disease, diabetes and other deadly conditions,

more intensive research into cleaner alternative fuels,

more intensive technological research that gives easy access to broadband and congestion free Internet infrastructure,

lower taxes etc etc etc,

to improve the living standard of the average American.

Fear of the unknown ( the terrorists) is being propagated by the propaganda from western governments who want to keep their wasteful spending on the military as high as possible and thus depriving you of a better and healthier standard of living because as long as you fear the terrorists, the US government can keep their supporters in the military/industrial complex "laughing all the way to the bank " and so the US govt does not have to spend adequate money on safer food, safer air, safer water and a safer environment from pollutants and poisons in everyday items you use.

"Millions of consumers are being made ill, hundreds of thousands hospitalized and thousands are dying each year from preventable food borne illnesses," according to The Center for Science in the Public Interest. "Unfortunately, the FDA is saddled with outdated laws, and lacks the authority, tools and resources to fight unsafe food."

ref : http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Dangerous-foods-list-includes-cnnm-1143667599.html?x=0

Instead of keeping Americans safe from pollutants, poisons in every day household items and deadly pathogens, the US govt directs trillions to unnecessary wars and unnecessary "defense" projects.

The US govt. will not give up the American empire even while the American economy is suffering and has just approved 805 billion ( eight hundred thousand million plus another five thousand million ) to the military/industrial complex which does not include the hundreds of billions going to homeland security, maintenance of nuclear armaments, the veterans budget, and the interest payments on the debt borrowed on behalf of the military/industrial complex.

Interest payments alone on the debt incurred by funding past unnecessary wars and bloated unnecessary projects of the military/industrial complex amounts to about $250 billion a year.

ref : http://www.bu.edu/globalbeat/syndicate/anglewicz-brauer062005.html

and at this rate of spending, the US will eventually become a third rate economy with lower standards of living for the average American while social security benefits will be cut, health care rationed, cuts in high quality education and cuts in all essential projects like food safety etc etc.

One easy way to help the military/industrial complex is to instigate a war :

Stimson, the Secretary of War confided in his diary after a meeting of the war cabinet on November 25, 1941 : “The question was how we should maneuver them [the Japanese] into firing the first shot without allowing too much danger to ourselves".

After the Pearl Harbor attack, Stimson confessed : “my first feeling was of relief ... that a crisis had come in a way which would unite all our people."


The military/industrial complex would rather make money through the corporate welfare system without war,

but war is too much of a temptation and too lucrative for war profits to be abandoned completely, so the rich and powerful in the military/industrial complex thrive on conflict and its in their interest to keep the conflict going and that is why you will find instigation policies of the US and Israeli govts in keeping the terrorists agitated enough so that they will keep causing problems and in turn the fear that is generated among the public due to terrorism will enable politicians to keep expanding the "defense" budget because a fearful public will not question the ever expanding "defense" budget and in turn the ever expanding "defense" budget keeps the rich and powerful in the military/industrial complex happy and pave the way for support and re-elections of the military/industrial complex's puppet politicians.

And the people who pay the price for all the instigated conflicts are the poor, the sick, the handicapped, the children and the babies, while the so-called adults send our young and beloved soldiers to their deaths, all in the name of honor, duty and patriotism while the rich and powerful in the military/industrial complex "laugh all the way to the bank ".

Here are two examples of instigation policies that resulted in war or prolonged the conflict :

(1) The US govt instigated Japan by freezing Japanese assets, helping the Chinese military against Japan and as the McCollum Memo from US naval intelligence and Stimson, the Secretary of War admitted that the US govt did everything short of all out war, to instigate the Japanese govt to attack, since only if the Japanese attacked first would that unite the American people for war, since the American people did not want another world war since WW1.

(2) Instead of using pragmatic, diplomatic and covert initiatives, the US govt demanded that the Taliban hand over Osama Bin Laden to the US, knowing fully well that that kind of belligerent rude approach will not make the Taliban concede to the demands of the US govt and thus pave the way for a "profitable" war.

The Taliban tried to save face by saying that Osama bin Laden (if found , since he fled to the mountains after the 9/11 attack) would be put on trial in a muslim country , but the US govt. was more interested in the prospects of a "profitable" war then trying to negotiate with the Taliban.

If you look at the history of the US govt,

from its rebellion ,

its treatment of blacks and native Americans,

its imperial conquests of native American nations,

hawaii,

spanish colonies,

its gun boat diplomacy,

its genocidal occupation of the Philippines,

its merciless atom and fire bombing destruction of a defeated Japan

and its blow back policies that spawned WW2, the Cold War, the Middle Eastern Wars, Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the expansion of communism/fascism etc. etc.

and the resulting loss of hundreds of millions of lives and the loss of hundreds of thousands of US soldiers dying horrifying deaths or the hundreds of thousands of US soldiers maimed, deformed, blinded, paralyzed or disfigured for life

and the despair experienced by hundreds of thousands of American families who have their loved ones adversely affected by war, you would have to conclude that the US govt. has not been a blessing to the world,

all because of the power trips of the war mongering chicken hawk politicians and their profit driven supporters in the greedy, corrupt, wasteful, bloated military/industrial pork laden corporate welfare entitlement complex that has got hundreds of trillions of dollars of hard earned taxpayers money over the decades, all in the name of honor, duty, freedom, patriotism and liberty.

As one wise Samuel Johnson said on the evening of April 7, 1775, "patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel".

If any defense contract gets reduced or canceled, you can bet the war profiteering defense contractor and his puppet in the US govt. will rally up his supporters and say its not patriotic to cancel a defense contract.

If the US government makes peace with Iran and co-opts the Ayatollahs as President Reagan co-opted Saddam Hussein, there will be one less enemy in the world, but that will not sit well with the those who want as many enemies as possible in order to keep the fear level high enough so that the American public will not question that 68 cents of every hard earned tax dollar or more than a trillion dollars is going every year to the bloated, greedy, wasteful, corrupt military/industrial pork laden corporate welfare entitlement complex.

The rich and powerful in the military/industrial complex are "laughing all the way to the bank " while the average American has to forgo a better and healthier standard of living due to a trillion dollars or 68 cents of every hard earned tax dollar being squandered every year on projects that have little value with the actual safety or security of the American people.

The yearly trillion dollar looting of hard earned taxpayers' money from the treasury by the military/industrial complex and its puppets in the US govt is giving us neither security or safety as evidenced by 19 hijackers using box-cutters on a half million dollar budget, infiltrating all our trillion dollar defenses and that is one reason the guilt-ridden US govt had to compensate the families of the victims on 9/11.


From the destruction of innocent Japanese cherry blossom trees during World War Two in Washington DC to the presence of US nuclear weapons that "tell" foreign governments that if they kill our children with a nuclear attack, the US government has the right to kill all their children with our nuclear weapons, is a testimony to the similarity between the terrorists and what the US government has at least done in the past in which both the terrorists and the US government have punished or wanted to punish collaterally or otherwise, "trees" and the general population (of innocent men, women, children and babies ) for the evil doings of a few.

Davegreybeard,

You apparently derive your opinions of muslims from their religious texts but it is apparent that muslims do not follow their religious texts as can be seen in this video where a militant muslim is accusing muslims outside a mosque of not wanting to go to jihad :

http://www.blip.tv/file/2760905

Here is a discussion with DDA, which you might find helpful :

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

You know, ladies and gentlemen, when I see '45ch' - who from all sorts of things s/he has said in other postings, under other monikers (e.g. 'loveverybody'), is most definitely a Mohammedan - putting on a 'Christian' mask and quoting a few passages of scripture at us, over and over and over, I am reminded, myself, of two *other* passages of Scripture: namely, Luke 4: 2-12 (especially 9-12), and Matthew 4:1-10, especially 5-7.

Comment :

Regarding Luke 4: 9-12 ( Matthew 4: 5-7 ):

All religions rely on the power of the sword to evangelize but not true christians and that does not mean christians are testing the Lord.

When the early christians did not retaliate against the terrorist Romans and when they submitted to the rule of the terrorist Romans, they were not testing the lord but obeying the Holy Spirit to evangelize without relying on the power of the sword.

To turn the hearts of muslims to Christ, the only way to evangelize is through the power of the Holy Spirit and not the power of the sword.

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

If 45ch thinks that by achieving 'the last word' - that is, the final posting on the thread, which it probably will, for the rest of us have many other things to discuss - s/he will achieve 'victory', s/he is sadly mistaken.

Comment :

Having the last word is not victory.

Victory is when children do not die in unnecessary wars instigated by the US govt

Victory is when our beloved soldiers are not sent deliberately into harm's way, all in the name of patriotism and honor while the rich and powerful in the military/industrial complex "laugh all the way to the bank ".

Victory is when christians start relying on the Holy Spirit rather than the power of the sword in order to evangelize

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

For us non-Muslims here (not only Christians but also Jews, atheists, agnostics, Hindus, and others) to observe and to publicly state that Major Nidal Hasan was - and repeatedly declared himself to be - motivated by the central doctrines of classical Islam, Islam of the Quran-Sira-Hadith, is not 'hate'. It is a plain description of observable documented fact, tantamount to stating that 2 + 2 = 4.

Comment :

From 1776 through 2009, how many American muslim soldiers have murdered their fellow soldiers ?

Out of about 3500 American muslim soldiers, how many murdered their fellow soldiers ?

Indicting all muslims for the criminal acts of one soldier is hate, just as Hitler indicted all jews for the supposed "criminal acts" of a few jews .

Major Nidal Hassan and Timothy McVeigh would probably have not committed their crimes if they were not exposed to the horrors of war and the adverse policies of the US govt.

Did religion play a role in Nidal's crimes ? I am sure it did but more then religion is seeing pitiful children in Iraq and Afghanistan being collateral victims of either US bombings or collateral victims of rebels who retaliate against fellow citizens who they suspect to be allies of the occupying power.

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

I shall repeat, from a posting I made above:

"The Nidal Hasan case - complete with his damning powerpoint presentation followed by actual practical demonstration - was a spectacular case of the Cat Getting Out Of The Bag. Or perhaps, Crocodile out of the bag, or Gremlin out of the Bag.

The Mohammedtrolls are trying hard to stuff it back in before anyone notices all those teeth and claws."

Comment :

The "teeth and claws" is human weakness in taking revenge for the collateral deaths of children in wars instigated by the US govt.

Indicting all muslims for the criminal acts of a few is hate, just as Hitler indicted all jews for the criminal acts of a few.

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

QUOTE "...a major, twofold fact transforms the jihad into something quite different from traditional wars, waged for ambition and self-interest, with limited objectives, where the "normal" situation is peace between peoples - war, in itself, constituting a dramatic event which must end in a return to peace.

Comment :

Peace is the normal situation among most muslim nations as almost all muslim nations have not gone beyond their borders in the past 100 years, as compared to non-muslim nations who have gone to wars beyond their borders.

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

"This twofold fact is, first, the religious nature [of the jihad]; then, secondly, the fact that war has become an institution (and no longer an "event").

Comment :

The fact is that in the past 100 years, war is not an institution among almost all muslim countries

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

"Jihad is generally translated as "holy war" (this term is not satisfactory); and this suggests both that this war is provoked by strong religious feeling, and then that its first object is not so much to conquer land as to Islamize the populations.

Comment :

There are millions of non-muslims living in peace in muslim countries without being forced to become muslims.

Does it mean its a perfect situation ? off course not.

anytime there are minorities in any country, the majority will sometimes take advantage of and even persecute as has been seen in the persecution of blacks in America as late as the 60s through Jim Crowe laws and even lynchings.

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

"This war is a religious duty.

Comment :

Here is a video where a militant muslim is accusing muslims outside a mosque of not going to jihad:

http://www.blip.tv/file/2760905

Islam is not more powerful than Christianity and since christians do not follow the pacifism of Christ, almost all muslims do not go to jihad because both Christianity and Islam are not able to override the free will of their followers.

Just as almost all christians do not follow Christ's pacifism, almost all muslims do not follow the call to jihad.

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

"In Islam, on the contrary, jihad is a religious obligation.

Comment :

Pacifism is a "religious" obligation of all christians, but how many follow Christ's pacifism ?

Likewise, Islam is not more powerful than christianity and is not able to override the free will of muslims, so that is the reason,just as christians do not obey their "religion" concerning pacifism, muslims do not follow their religion either concerning jihad.

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

"It [Jihad] forms part of the duties that the believer must fulfil;

"it is Islam's *normal* {Ellul's emphasis - dda} path to expansion.

"And this is found repeatedly, dozens of times in the Koran.

Comment :

There is no evidence that almost all muslims are involved in jihad, just as there is no evidence that all christians are involved in pacifism as commanded by Christ.

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

"Therefore, the believer is not denying the religious message. Quite the reverse, jihad is the way he best obeys it.

Comment :

As I said before, there is no evidence that almost all muslims are involved in jihad, just as there is no evidence that almost all christians are pacifists as Christ was.

Both Islam and Christianity are not able to override the free will of their believers and that is why believers in both religions are not obeying their respective religions concerning either pacifism or jihadism.

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

"But Bat Ye'or shows that things are not so simple. Since the jihad is not solely an external war, it can break out within the Muslim world itself - and wars among Muslims have been numerous, but always with the same features.

Comment :

Wars among muslims is true.

Muslims have always been disunited and that is no way there is going to be a worldwide islamic caliphate because muslims even at the height of islamic power ended up breaking into different countries and eventually there are about 57 muslim countries today since muslims have always had differing goals and agendas

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

"The world [for Muslims], as Bat Ye'or brilliantly shows, is divided into two regions: the dar al-Islam and the dar al-harb - in other words, the "domain of Islam" and "the domain of war".

Comment :

In the past 100 years, almost all muslim countries have remained within the "domain of islam" as compared to non-muslim countries that have waged war beyond their borders.

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

"The world is no longer divided into nations, peoples, or tribes.

Comment :

The world is divided and it will always be divided, just as muslims are divided to the extent there does exist about 57 muslim countries today.

Even at the height of islamic power, the islamic empire started breaking up and eventually we have about 57 muslim countries today due to the fact that muslims have always been disunited, so there will never be one united world wide islamic caliphate.

The existence of nations speaks to the differing ideologies and the economic interests of the rich and powerful within each country.

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

"Rather, they are all located en bloc in the world of war, where war is the only possible relationship with the outside world.

" The earth belongs to Allah and all its inhabitants must acknowledge this reality; to achieve this goal there is but one method: war.

Comment :

War has been more of a theme from non-muslim nations these past 100 years than compared to war from muslim nations

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

"War, then, is clearly an institution, not just an incidental or fortuitous institution, but a constituent part of the thought, the organization and the structures of this world.

Comment :

War has been more of an institution among non-muslim countries these past 100 years than from muslim countries

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

"Peace with this world of war is impossible. Of course it is sometimes necessary to call a halt; there are circumstances where it is better not to make war. The Koran allows for this. But this changes nothing: war remains an institution, which means that it must resume as soon as circumstances permit.

Comment :

Peace is possible, as seen by the fact that almost all 57 muslim countries have not gone beyond their borders these past 100 years as compared to the war mongering of non-muslim nations these past 100 years

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

"I have greatly stressed the characteristics of this war, because there is so much talk nowadays of the tolerance and fundamental pacifism of Islam that it is necessary to recall its nature, which is fundamentally warlike! " END EXCERPT FROM ELLUL ON JIHAD.

Q. E. D, at Fort Hood, earlier this month

Comment :

We have to look at what muslims are actually doing rather then the texts of their religion, just as we should be looking at what jews are actually doing rather than looking at the text of Deut 20:16 which commands Jews to conquer lands up to Iraq and to commit genocide on all men, women, children and babies living within the "promised land".

By what muslims are actually doing, it is fair to say that almost all muslims are not involved in jihad except for a tiny minority who can never conquer the world or even a single muslim country.

CONCLUSION :

The fact is that American Presidents, including President Reagan, have been informed by the CIA that Saudi Arabia is not dangerous to world peace and that is why the US govt has ties to Saudi Arabia and numerous other muslim countries that are not a danger to world peace.

I can assure you, you are more in danger from your fellow citizens than any muslim terrorist

And you are more in danger from everyday household items or foods that you eat that can have deadly consequences either in the short term or long term.

And you are more in danger of getting cancer because cancer is the result of hate that consumes the soul.

So you would be better off concentrating on the true dangers to your health and safety and not "cooked up dangers from Islam" that only benefit the profit agenda of the bloated, greedy, corrupt military/industrial pork laden corporate welfare entitlement complex where here in the US the complex is looting the US govt of 68 cents of every hard earned tax dollar amounting to over a trillion dollars a year

ethoman, you stated :

How would you explain the many Muslim countries that do practice sharia, and do commit religiously motivated acts of discrimination against non-Muslims as required by Islamic norms enshrined in the Hadith, and Qura?. How would you explain the many Muslims who openly advocate the implementation of sharia in the U.S., Brittan, and the west in general? I suppose I would get these ideas through 2 of my main sensory input devices, otherwise known as eyes, and ears.

Comment :

The fact that there are muslims who are willing to forgo Sharia in numerous muslim countries is progress and it shows muslims are capable of change for the better.

Yes, there are muslim countries that need reformation but the fact of the matter is they are no danger to the west, just as the institution of slavery and the lynching of thousands of blacks in the 19 th and even in the 20th century did not continue because all countries do reform eventually.

If you look at muslim countries who got their independence about fifty years ago, like Malaysia, Malaysia is far more progressive than the US was fifty years after 1776 in which the US had slavery as an institution.

As for muslims advocating Sharia in the west, they are talking about the same types of religious jewish courts in the UK

They are not talking about harsh Sharia laws but laws similar to those practiced by religious jewish courts in the UK.

Do you really think that muslims in the west are determined to establish harsh sharia laws ? and if so , aren't they a tiny minority of muslims in the west who want harsh sharia laws ?

Davegreybeard,

The video is about a militant muslim accusing muslims outside a mosque of not going to jihad.

My point is that almost all muslims are not involved in jihad unless those muslims find their country occupied by a foreign power in which case it would be like how the US revolutionary war was conducted.

If you were in a war zone and you see your family murdered by rebels or collaterally killed by the occupying force, knowing that you do not compromise with injustice , what would you do ?

When a foreign power occupies another country or when separatist movements reject the govt., it tends to result in terrorism, as was seen by the torture that many loyalist Americans/British went through by being tarred ( boiling tar being poured on them) because they were seen as loyal to the occupying British forces by the American rebels.

Another form of terrorism was the killing of british troops by the American rebels, after the British troops had surrendered.

ref : http://home.golden.net/~marg/bansite/banecdotes/96quarter.html

Lynchings were ordered by American Patriot Judge Charles Lynch on the terrorized American loyalists who were loyal to the British Crown.

So terrorism can be the result of being in a war zone and its either terrorism from the occupying force through collateral actions or the terrorism of the rebels against those loyal to the occupying force.

The fact that most American loyalists who were loyal to Britain fled the US, shows the terror they faced, not only from being tarred or properties confiscated but being lynched to death.

ref : http://www.redcoat.me.uk/

DDA,

Its a fact that over a hundred million people have died under genocide in non-muslim countries, as compared to muslim countries these past 100 years.

Its a fact that non-muslim countries have waged more war beyond their borders these past 100 years compared to wars waged by muslim countries.

Its a fact that in the US alone there have been about 2000 annual murders of intimate partners by jealous boyfriends or husbands as compared to a world wide total of 5000 honor killings per year

Its a fact that you have heard of stories or read the news about your town's murders etc and most of them were done by non-muslims and probably non by Al-Qaeda so you are more in danger from your fellow citizens.

If you were living in a muslim country, there is a good chance you could be a victim of a muslim but at the same time, the murder rates in a place like Saudi Arabia (rank : 61) is much lower than in the US ( rank : 24) and several muslim countries have lower murder rates than the US.

In fact, the countries with the most murder rates, the top 12 are non-muslim.

ref : http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

ref : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

I can assure you, you are more in danger from your fellow citizens than any muslim terrorist

And you are more in danger from everyday household items or foods that you eat that can have deadly consequences either in the short term or long term.

And you are more in danger of getting cancer because cancer is the result of hate that consumes the soul.

So you would be better off concentrating on the true dangers to your health and safety and not "cooked up dangers from Islam" that only benefit the profit agenda of the bloated, greedy, corrupt military/industrial pork laden corporate welfare entitlement complex where here in the US the complex is looting the US govt of 68 cents of every hard earned tax dollar amounting to over a trillion dollars a year

Davegreybeard,

Since 1776 through 2009, how many American muslim soliders have killed their fellow soldiers ?

Since 1776 through 2009, how many non-muslim American soldiers have killed their fellow soldiers ?

ref : http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/1106/p02s10-usmi.html

Out of the 3500 American muslim soldiers, how many killed their fellow soldiers ?

Blaming all muslims for the criminal acts of one muslim is what Hitler did when he condemned all jews for the assassination of German diplomat Ernst vom Rathby a Jew on November 7, 1938.

Here is a discussion you might be interested in :

Hesperado, you stated :

45ch seems to think that we think the problem is that Muslims are actually going to conquer the world. If a maniac has the intention to burn down a skyscraper, does it matter if he is unable to achieve the full realization of his intent, but only manages to burn a few offices and kill about 30 or 40 people in the process of failing his ultimate objective?

Comment :

I deal in facts, numbers and the reality on the ground and that is why I am for the US rendition program that does apprehend truly dangerous criminals anywhere in the world, whether they are muslims or non-muslims who want to cause harm to Americans.

If you look at just the facts :

The only muslim organization that wants to punish Americans for the adverse and cruel foreign policies of the US govt is Al-Qaeda but other than Al-Qaeda, which is a very tiny organization, I don't see any major muslim organization wanting to cause harm to Americans on American soil.

As for causing harm to Americans in war zones, that is human nature to be murderous when their countries are occupied by a foreign military as was seen in the American revolutionary war.

We have read about numerous cases in the US in which loving fathers in our non-war zone and trauma-less America have nonetheless terrorized, tortured and killed their own children or pregnant wives, either through suffocation, drowning, hanging, beheading, stabbings or shootings,

so is it surprising that in Iraq or Afghanistan today, in the trauma of a war zone, where numerous victims see their loved ones being killed or blinded, maimed, deformed or paralyzed or disfigured for life due to either US bombings or sectarian violence, that those victims are vulnerable to Al-Qaida's propaganda which is able to influence the victims to take revenge and kill Muslims allied with the US or collaterally/accidentally kill Muslim children in the process of attacking US forces or Shia militias ?

If you were in a war zone and you see your family murdered by rebels or collaterally killed by the occupying force, knowing that you do not compromise with injustice , what would you do ?

When a foreign power occupies another country or when separatist movements reject the govt., it tends to result in terrorism, as was seen by the torture that many loyalist Americans/British went through by being tarred ( boiling tar being poured on them) because they were seen as loyal to the occupying British forces by the American rebels.

Another form of terrorism was the killing of british troops by the American rebels, after the British troops had surrendered.

ref : http://home.golden.net/~marg/bansite/banecdotes/96quarter.html

Lynchings were ordered by American Patriot Judge Charles Lynch on the terrorized American loyalists who were loyal to the British Crown.

So terrorism can be the result of being in a war zone and its either terrorism from the occupying force through collateral actions or the terrorism of the rebels against those loyal to the occupying force.

The fact that most American loyalists, who were loyal to Britain, fled the US, shows the terror they faced, not only from being tarred or properties confiscated but being lynched to death.

ref : http://www.redcoat.me.uk/

Hesperado, you stated :

There are too many Muslims in various places all over the world trying to concretize the supremacist madness of their religious blueprint, and in the process they are causing mayhem, and they need to be stopped.

Comment :

Too many muslims ?

As I said, I deal in facts and sadly :

Its a fact that over a hundred million people have died under genocide in non-muslim countries, as compared to muslim countries these past 100 years.

Its a fact that non-muslim countries have waged more war beyond their borders these past 100 years compared to wars waged by muslim countries.

Its a fact that in the US alone there have been about 2000 annual murders of intimate partners by jealous boyfriends or husbands as compared to a world wide total of 5000 honor killings per year

Its a fact that you have heard of stories or read the news about your town's murders etc and most of them were done by non-muslims and probably non by Al-Qaeda so you are more in danger from your fellow citizens.

If you were living in a muslim country, there is a good chance you could be a victim of a muslim but at the same time, the murder rates in a place like Saudi Arabia (rank : 61) is much lower than in the US ( rank : 24) and several muslim countries have lower murder rates than the US.

In fact, the countries with the most murder rates, the top 12 are non-muslim.

ref : http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

ref : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

I can assure you, you are more in danger from your fellow citizens than any muslim terrorist

And you are more in danger from everyday household items or foods that you eat that can have deadly consequences either in the short term or long term.

And you are more in danger of getting cancer because cancer is the result of hate that consumes the soul.

Hesperado, you stated :

The problem is not a "tiny minority" who are easily identifiable. The problem is a much larger, difficult to identify and ennumerate number of Muslims who furthermore are enabled in a variety of ways by other Muslims who are not actively killing anybody.

Comment :

I deal in facts and if the facts show that a majority of the muslim population are dangerous, I will be the first one to be on your side.

But the facts point clearly that muslims on the whole are less dangerous than non-muslims.

Does that mean that any particular non-muslim is more dangerous than any particular muslim ? off course not.

In aggregate, the facts do not support the idea of a dangerous muslim majority.

Hesperado, you stated :

The problem of enablement of violent and supremacist jihad in Muslim societies is a much larger more amorphous problem than 45ch claims.

Comment :

Here is a video where a militant muslim is accusing muslims outside a mosque of not going to jihad:

http://www.blip.tv/file/2760905

Islam is not more powerful than Christianity and since christians do not follow the pacifism of Christ, almost all muslims do not go to jihad because both Christianity and Islam are not able to override the free will of their followers.

Just as almost all christians do not follow Christ's pacifism, almost all muslims do not follow the call to jihad.

Jihad is a religious obligation that almost no muslims obey unless they do find their countries occupied by a foreign power.

If you can site any comprehensive study that shows that muslims are more dangerous than non-muslims, let me know and I will give it considerable thought.

Hesperado, you stated :

The same fanaticism that drives the violent jihadists is psychologically and culturally contiguous with the obsessive fanaticism by which multitudes of Muslims slavishly follow their religious rules and beliefs, and chief among those beliefs is the division of Mankind into Believer and Unbeliever, and the hatred of the latter and the exclusive loyalty to the former.

Comment :

Exclusive loyalty to the former ? when muslims have been disunited and muslim armies have waged war with each other ?

I do not see the exclusive loyalty you are talking about.

Christians also believe that unbelievers will go to hell but that does not mean that Christians are bad in anyway, does it ?

Muslims have opinions, just as christians have opinions but having an opinion does not constitute a conspiracy to do harm in anyway.

Now, if the facts point in the direction you are going, I will be the first one to be on your side, but the facts do not support any kind of conspiracy.

Hesperado, you stated :

Then add the prevalent culture of lying to protect Islam and we begin to have a problem of formidable proportions.

Comment :

Lying to protect Islam ? Do you have any comprehensive studies to back that up ?

I am going to give you a quote here and let me know which group the quote refers to :

We must realize that our party's most powerful weapon is racial tension. By propounding into the consciousness of the dark races that for centuries they have been oppressed by the whites, we can mould them to the program of the .........Party. In America we will aim for subtle victory. While inflaming the Negro minority against the whites, we will endeavor to install in the whites a guilt complex for their exploitation of the Negroes. We will aid the Negroes to rise in prominence in every walk of life, in the professions and in the world of sports and entertainment. With this prestige, the Negro will be able to intermarry with the whites and begin a process which will deliver America to our cause.(end of quote)

What group does the above quote refer to ?

The point I am getting at is any group that does not look like you and has a religion that is different from you, can be targets of conspiracy theories based more on beliefs than actual facts on the ground.

Here is another quote and let me know which group the quote refers to :

................ is the destiny of mankind.

The ...... are the highest and most cultured people on earth . . . The..... have a right to subordinate to themselves the rest of mankind and to be the masters over the whole earth. The......will become masters over the whole earth, and they will subordinate to themselves all nations, not by material power, not by brute force, but by light, knowledge, understanding, humanity, peace, justice and progress. . . .

The ...... shall inherit the earth, and . . . all other races will either disappear altogether or they will become (fill in the blank).(end of quote)

Which group does the above quote refer to ?

Conspiracy theories make the authors of those theories feel good about themselves because they want to see the world as black and white and they want to see their race as perfect and every other race as imperfect or even evil.

But life is not black and white and there are innumerable variations and colors and nuances and beliefs even within the same religion as can be seen in the innumerable denominations within christianity, islam and other religions.

I recall a muslim saying that there are a hundred different sects within sunni islam and each sect thinks the other is not following islam properly.

Hesperado, you stated :

Nevertheless, these innumerable and difficult to ennumerate numbers of Muslims all over the world don't have to be actually capable of their ultimate goal of a world dominated by Islam, for them to cause untold misery and mayhem merely in trying, yet failing, to succeed. We must stop them from trying -- never mind the red herring of their succeeding.

Comment :

As I said before, other than groups in muslim countries occupied by foreign armies and groups in countries with separatist movements ( eg the tamil tigers, Chechen rebels, the IRA etc)

the only group that wants to harm Americans on American soil is Al-Qaeda and its affiliates which constitute about a few hundred militant muslims, not enough to cause a change in any govt, anywhere in the world.

Hesperado, you stated :

Secondly, there is another factor here at work, other than mere conquest. Conquest is not the only ultimate desideratum encoded in the blueprint of Islam.

Comment :

Even at the height of Islamic power, the muslim empire started to break up and eventually there are about 57 muslim countries today with differing agendas and goals.

The thought of muslims united to conquer the world is not based on fact but emotions.

Hesperado, you stated :

In fact, Muslims would not be happy merely to conquer the world, even if they could: not because they don't want to -- but because it's not in the blueprint of the Sunnah. The ultimate goal is not conquest of this world: the ultimate goal is bringing this world to the threshhold of the eschaton, to prepare it for the Last Days and Allah's final cleansing of Earth, damning all Unbelievers to Hell and giving Paradise to all worthy Believers.

Comment :

You mean that Pakistan will use nuclear weapons ? and if so, what are they waiting for ?

If muslim countries are suicidal, Iran would not have had a cease fire with Iraq in the long war with Iraq and Iran would have told its entire population to go to war with Iraq but that never happened.

People keep waiting for a muslim country to be truly suicidal and if it has not happened in 1400 years, there is a good chance, it will not ever happen because people might like their religious texts but more often than not, they are not following everything those religious texts dictate, just as almost all christians do not follow the pacifism of Christ even though they admire Christ.

Hesperado, you stated :

And this, according to the blueprint which must be slavishly followed, will not happen without worldwide wars and disorder and chaos and bloodshed. That is ultimately what Muslims must work for -- not so much because they want it, but because it's in the divine blueprint: worldwide Fitna, to instigate global wars of unprecedented chaos and bloodshed, in order to pave the way for the Last Days.

Comment :

Instigation of wars is not only confined to muslim govts., but non-muslim govts. like the US govt is also in the business of instigation , for example:

Stimson, the Secretary of War confided in his diary after a meeting of the war cabinet on November 25, 1941 : “The question was how we should maneuver them [the Japanese] into firing the first shot without allowing too much danger to ourselves".

After the Pearl Harbor attack, Stimson confessed : “my first feeling was of relief ... that a crisis had come in a way which would unite all our people."


The military/industrial complex would rather make money through the corporate welfare system without war,

but war is too much of a temptation and too lucrative for war profits to be abandoned completely, so the rich and powerful in the military/industrial complex thrive on conflict and its in their interest to keep the conflict going and that is why you will find instigation policies of the US and Israeli govts in keeping the terrorists agitated enough so that they will keep causing problems and in turn the fear that is generated among the public due to terrorism will enable politicians to keep expanding the "defense" budget because a fearful public will not question the ever expanding "defense" budget and in turn the ever expanding "defense" budget keeps the rich and powerful in the military/industrial complex happy and pave the way for support and re-elections of the military/industrial complex's puppet politicians.

And the people who pay the price for all the instigated conflicts are the poor, the sick, the handicapped, the children and the babies, while the so-called adults send our young and beloved soldiers to their deaths, all in the name of honor, duty and patriotism while the rich and powerful in the military/industrial complex "laugh all the way to the bank ".

Here are two examples of instigation policies that resulted in war or prolonged the conflict :

(1) The US govt instigated Japan by freezing Japanese assets, helping the Chinese military against Japan and as the McCollum Memo from US naval intelligence and Stimson, the Secretary of War admitted that the US govt did everything short of all out war, to instigate the Japanese govt to attack, since only if the Japanese attacked first would that unite the American people for war, since the American people did not want another world war since WW1.

(2) Instead of using pragmatic, diplomatic and covert initiatives, the US govt demanded that the Taliban hand over Osama Bin Laden to the US, knowing fully well that that kind of belligerent rude approach will not make the Taliban concede to the demands of the US govt and thus pave the way for a "profitable" war.

The Taliban tried to save face by saying that Osama bin Laden (if found , since he fled to the mountains after the 9/11 attack) would be put on trial in a muslim country , but the US govt. was more interested in the prospects of a "profitable" war then trying to negotiate with the Taliban.

As for multiple muslim govts. instigating wars at the same time, even though muslims have always been disunited, here again, conspiracy theories can be applied to any group different in looks and religion.

Who is the infamous person who said that a certain group was responsible for all the wars ? do you know the name of the person ?

Hesperado, you stated :

And again, we are not worried that Muslims will actually succeed in ushering in the Last Days: we are only concerned about what too many Muslims in various places all around the world -- most of whom we cannot identify, locate nor predict -- will do in merely trying to bring this about.

Comment :

If western govts will leave muslim lands, you will see a dramatic decrease in attacks against westerners.

In fact the The Center Party of Egypt (Hizb ul-Wasat ), Turkey's ruling AKP Party, Tehreek i Insaf Party of Pakistan and Iran's Defenders of Human Rights Center are four of numerous muslim organizations and muslim reformers who don't hate muslims but want reformation in the muslim world

and we can help reformers in the muslim world by drastically changing US foreign policy which right now motivates Al-Qaeda to recruit among the victims of US foreign policy.

Now to ensure total and long lasting peace between the west and Al-Qaeda and its affiliates, we have to implement the 28 point peace plan :

http://www.bernardgoldberg.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=30488&p=83949#p83949

Insulting Islam is not going to help matters as it is important to get 1.5 billion muslims on our side so that we can prevent the next terrorist attack and the way to prevent the next terrorist attack is to co-opt the muslim world by drastically changing US foreign policy which is now catered solely to enrich the rich and powerful in the bloated, corrupt, greedy military/industrial pork laden corporate welfare entitlement complex while the so called adults send our young and beloved soldiers to their deaths all in the name of patriotism, honor and duty, during which time, the rich and powerful in the military/industrial complex laugh all the way to the bank.

IN CLOSING :

Instead of complaining about a tiny minority of muslims who will never pose a threat to western civilization, how about discussing the real threats to our security

Here is a partial list :

(1) American foreign policy

(2) poisons in everyday household items that can produce cancer

(3) Govt corruption in spending 68 cents of every tax dollar on the bloated, greedy, wasteful military/industrial pork laden, corporate welfare entitlement complex

(4) gang violence

(5) gun violence

(6) only 2% of imported food being inspected right now

(7) dangerous bridges

(8) Millions of consumers are being made ill, hundreds of thousands hospitalized and thousands are dying each year from preventable food borne illnesses," according to The Center for Science in the Public Interest. "Unfortunately, the FDA is saddled with outdated laws, and lacks the authority, tools and resources to fight unsafe food."

I can assure you, you are more in danger from your fellow citizens than any muslim terrorist

And you are more in danger from everyday household items or foods that you eat that can have deadly consequences either in the short term or long term.

And you are more in danger of getting cancer because cancer is the result of hate that consumes the soul.

So you would be better off concentrating on the true dangers to your health and safety and not "cooked up dangers from Islam" that only benefit the profit agenda of the bloated, greedy, corrupt military/industrial pork laden corporate welfare entitlement complex where here in the US the complex is looting the US govt of 68 cents of every hard earned tax dollar amounting to over a trillion dollars a year

I am prosperous in my life because I have been blessed by God in being a peacemaker.

So be a peacemaker, and you will be blessed and no terrible thing will befall you because hate is like a cancer that can consume your soul and that is one reason people get cancer because their hate consumes them and they are vulnerable to all kinds of deadly diseases.

Dave,

There is a typo ( ) above, it should read :

Blaming all muslims for the criminal acts of one muslim is what Hitler did when he condemned all jews for the assassination of German diplomat Ernst vom Rathby ( by ) a Jew on November 7, 1938.

Dave,

You will defeat the terrorists because they are tiny in number and muslims have always been disunited.

Instead of hating, how about pushing the US govt to implementing the following 28 point peace plan to achieve true and lasting peace, even with Al-Qaeda :

28 POINT PEACE PLAN TO PREVENT ALL FUTURE WARS AND TERRORISM:

(1) MAKE PEACE WITH THE ENEMY including all enemy nation states BY ISSUING A STATEMENT THAT WE ARE WILLING TO NEGOTIATE A PEACE SETTLEMENT WITH THE LEADERS OF THE POLITICAL WING WHO ARE NOT DIRECTLY INVOLVED WITH TERRORIST ACTIVITY BUT WHO HAVE POLITICAL TIES TO THE TERRORIST ORGANIZATIONS THEY REPRESENT...........a peace conference in a neutral country like Switzerland and sponsored by the US should bring all warring parties together to allow a platform in which all terrorist organizations through their political wing that can bring up issues..........JUST HEARING THEM OUT IN A SETTING LIKE A PEACE CONFERENCE WOULD MAKE A CEASEFIRE POSSIBLE......A LOT OF THE VIOLENCE IS BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE A US/UN SPONSORED PLATFORM THROUGH WHICH THEY CAN VENT THEIR FRUSTRATIONS.

(2) HELP ALL THOSE IN THE MIDDLE EAST FINANCIALLY WHO HAVE BEEN KILLED BY WEAPONS MADE IN THE US (THIS INCLUDES FAMILIES OF PALESTINIANS WHO HAVE DIED DUE TO COLLATERAL DAMAGE BECAUSE OF AMERICAN MADE WEAPONS) Sometimes our weapons cause collateral damage that kill innocent children and others and sometimes they are stolen by the enemy and used against us.
for example, Muslim babies and children dying or being deformed and maimed for life due to collateral damage from US made weapons fuels the anger towards the US and radicalizes a minority of Muslims to commit terrorist acts

(3) TELL THE POLITICAL WING OF THE TERRORISTS and all enemy nation states THAT WE WILL PULL OUT OUR ENTIRE ARMED FORCES FROM THE ENTIRE MIDDLE EAST and the rest of the world AS SOON AS IT IS PRACTICAL

(4) COVERTLY BE VERY ACTIVE IN THE MIDDLE EAST and all enemy nation states ( THE CIA'S BUDGET SHOULD BE GREATLY ENLARGED AND THE CIA SHOULD BE EMBEDDED IN EVERY MOSQUE, RELIGIOUS SCHOOL AND HOT SPOT IN THE MIDDLE EAST) AND INVITE ANY POTENTIAL ENEMY TO THE US OR INVITE THEM TO A "SAFE" COUNTRY WITH THE PRETENSE OF GIVING THEM HELP.. A "SAFE" COUNTRY IS A COUNTRY THAT IS COVERTLY HELPING US ON TERRORISM BUT LOOKS SAFE TO TERRORISTS......AN EXAMPLE OF A SAFE COUNTRY COULD BE PAKISTAN...... ..ONCE THE ENEMY AND HIS THUGS ARE COVERTLY APPREHENDED IN THE "SAFE" COUNTRY AND BROUGHT TO THE US, CONFINE THEM UNTIL WE ARE CONVINCED THAT THEY ARE NO LONGER A HARM TO ANYBODY.....AFTER HITLER WAS RELEASED FROM PRISON WHERE HE WROTE MEIN KAMPF, WE SHOULD HAVE BROUGHT HIM TO THE US, WITH THE PRETENSE OF HELPING HIS CAUSE AND ONCE IN THE US, AFTER A SECRET TRIAL, THE US COULD HAVE CONFINED HIM AND HIS THUGS UNTIL REHABILITATED OR IMPRISONED FOR LIFE...ALL THE ABOVE SHOULD BE DONE SECRETLY BECAUSE WE DON'T WANT FUTURE TERRORISTS TO KNOW WHAT OUR INTENTIONS ARE.

(5) GIVE AS MUCH HUMANITARIAN AID TO THE MIDDLE EAST and all enemy nation states, AND ALL THOSE ISRAELIS AND OTHERS WHO ARE VICTIMS OF TERRORISM AND ALL VICTIMS OF COLLATERAL DAMAGE DUE TO AMERICAN MADE WEAPONS.

The world should be divided into a grid system with each unit being about one square mile and within each unit, the US government should , according to the population density, place community heatlh centers which cater to the physical, emotional and psychological needs of the community which should include a health foods program, an exercise program, job training programs, a mental health program and a diseases prevention program

ALL AID SHOULD NOT BE GIVEN THROUGH THE CORRUPT AUTHORITIES IN THE MIDDLE EAST.....AID SHOULD ONLY BE GIVEN DIRECTLY TO THE CITIZENS THROUGH US AGENCIES OR OTHER AID AGENCIES WHO pass rigorous audits.

This aid should be directly related to giving every major US corporation the financial incentives to help in the economic development of all enemy nation states and other poor countries.

(6) WE SHOULD BE EVEN HANDED IN THE ISRAELI-PALESTINIAN SITUATION.....HAVE A PEACE CONFERENCE OF ALL PARTIES INVOLVED INCLUDING THE POLITICAL WING OF HAMAS, ISLAMIC JIHAD, THE AL-AQSA BRIGADE, THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY AND THE ISRAELIS.... GIVE THE NECESSARY FINANCIAL AND POWER SHARING INCENTIVES TO ALL POLITICAL LEADERS INVOLVED, SO THAT ALL PARTIES WOULD COME TO AGREEMENT...

..AS FOR THE TERRORISTS WHO ARE INVOLVED IN THE ACTUAL MURDERS OF ISRAELIS, COVERTLY APPREHEND THEM AT A LATER DATE FOR A SECRET TRIAL.......

..THE FOLLOWING SHOULD BE A SUBSTANTIAL PART OF THE ISRAELI-PALESTINIAN SOLUTION.

..(a) the complete withdrawal by Israel from all occupied territories including East Jerusalem

(b) compensate all Israelis for settlements vacated

(c) compensate all Israeli victims of terrorism

(d) compensate all Palestinian victims of collateral damage

(e) compensate all Palestinian refugees for land confiscated by Israel as a result of previous wars

(f) Give a gift to the Palestinians by building them a four lane expressway that connects the Gaza strip to the West Bank........underpasses will connect the north side of Israel to the south side of Israel on either side of the expressway

(g) build an all encompassing electronic fence that completely separates Israel from the West Bank, the Gaza strip and the GS-WB Expressway

(h) directly aid the Palestinians to improve their economy.....aid should not go through the Palestinian government

(i) give incentives to American and Israeli corporations to help the Palestinian economy by creating jobs in Palestine

(j) the leaders of Israel, the Palestinian Authority, the political leaders of Hamas, Al-Aqsa Brigade and Islamic Jihad should be financially compensated in order to expedite the Israeli-Palestinian solution as soon as possible.......terrorists who are murderers would be covertly apprehended at a later date for a secret trial and secret detention.......if the well compensated political leaders of Hamas, Al-Aqsa Brigade and Islamic Jihad (who do not have blood on their hands) prove to be truly peaceful in the post-solution era than any secret US tribunal would consider the future peaceful actions of secretly indicted leaders as mitigating facts that might postpone the execution of any covert operations to apprehend those leaders.

(7) MAKING PEACE WITH ALL OUR ENEMIES IS THE KEY TO SUCCESS.....REMEMBER THESE PEOPLE, WHETHER RIGHTLY OR WRONGLY, FEEL THAT WE HAVE HUMILIATED THEM ENOUGH, SO THEY ARE FIGHTING BACK.....for example, the humiliation and anger the Muslims felt when "infidel" US troops were stationed in "holy" Saudi Arabia is what led to the attacks on September 11, 2001.........AFTER THE US WITHDRAWS MILITARILY FROM THE MIDDLE EAST, THE CIA THROUGH ITS MASSIVE COVERT OPERATIONS WOULD PREVENT TRULY DANGEROUS CHARACTERS FROM ASSUMING TOO MUCH POWER......PEOPLE LIKE HITLER WOULD HAVE NO CHANCE TO GAIN POWER IF APPREHENDED EARLY THROUGH COVERT CIA OPERATIONS.

(8) COVERTLY AT A MUCH LATER DATE WHEN OSAMA BIN LADEN IS NOT HIDING FROM US BECAUSE HE THINKS HE IS FREE TO ROAM ABOUT THE MIDDLE EAST, BRING HIM TO JUSTICE THROUGH CIA COVERT OPERATIONS TO A SECRET TRIAL IN THE US........covert operations should be used for all potential "Hitlers" .........truly dangerous people who incite violence, violate democratic principles, are very influential and advocate the overthrow of the government........this would have included Lenin, Tojo, Mao, Saddam, Charles Manson etc..for example, when Saddam Hussein fled to Egypt because the coup in Iraq failed, we could have sent our intelligence operatives to Egypt to lure Saddam and his thugs to a "safe" country where we could have arrested him

(9) MEDIA IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND ALL ENEMY NATION STATES INCLUDING THE MOSQUES AND RELIGIOUS SCHOOLS SHOULD BE INFLUENCED AND FINANCIALLY CONTROLLED BY THE US THROUGH THE CIA COVERTLY .......WE BASICALLY SHOULD financially compensate THE LEADERS IN ENEMY NATION STATES TO ALLOW US TO INFLUENCE THEIR MEDIA AND INSTITUTIONS OF POWER AND INFLUENCE

(10) COMPENSATE ALL AMERICAN FAMILIES AND FAMILIES IN THE MIDDLE EAST WHO HAVE HAD LOVED ONES KILLED BY TERRORISTS....EXPLAIN THROUGH THE AMERICAN MEDIA THAT WE ARE NOT SOFT ON TERRORISM BUT WE ARE COVERTLY SOLVING THE PROBLEM OF TERRORISM....THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WILL UNDERSTAND THAT TERRORISM NEEDS TO BE FOUGHT COVERTLY TO PREVENT THE SPREAD OF TERRORISM.

(11) the US president will only meet with a head of a terrorist state (eg the former Soviet Union) only after US government officials meets with the political wing of the dictator (who do not have blood on their hands) without pre-conditions and then at the meeting, the US government will set forth the conditions under which US financial, non-military security and economic support will flow and if it is accepted by the political wing, our support will only be towards the political wing until the dictator takes concrete steps towards democracy and human rights reforms and only then will the US President meet face to face with the reformed dictator in order to push for further democratic and human rights reforms while CIA covert operatives make sure that the dictator's life is protected from rebels further giving proof that the US is on the side of the reformed dictator while CIA psychiatrists put the dictator through various psychological therapies in order to further facilitate democratic and human rights reforms

TERRORISTS WITH ENORMOUS POWER LIKE KIM JONG IL SHOULD BE BASICALLY COMPENSATED FINANCIALLY AND IN RETURN HE WILL ALLOW OUR CIA TO BE EMBEDDED WITH HIS INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES TO ASSURE HIS SECURITY AND THAT NO HUMAN RIGHTS ARE VIOLATED....

...AT THE SAME TIME THE CIA WILL ALSO BE COVERTLY IN HIS COUNTRY MONITORING ANY INSURGENCY ACTIVITY AND IF AN INSURGENT IS POWERFUL AND VIOLENT ENOUGH, COVERT CIA OPERATIONS WILL TAKE CARE OF THE INSURGENCY AND FURTHER GIVE PROOF TO KIM JONG IL THAT WE ARE ON HIS SIDE AND HE DOES NOT HAVE TO TAKE DRASTIC AND CRUEL MEASURES TO STAY IN POWER....

..for example a little diplomacy that Madeline Albright did by visiting Kim Jong Il impressed him so much that he even invited President Clinton to visit North Korea.........if a little diplomacy bears fruit, can you imagine what an intensive and thorough form of diplomatic initiatives can produce ?...
...........THESE MEASURES SHOULD BE ADOPTED IN EVERY ENEMY NATION STATE...........WHICH ARE....SECURITY ASSURANCES, FINANCIAL INCENTIVES, COVERT AND OVERT CIA OPERATIONS AND VIGOROUS AND CONSTANT DIPLOMACY...........BASICALLY EVERY TERRORIST LEADER WHO IS RULING A COUNTRY WILL UNDERGO LONG TERM DIPLOMATIC AND PSYCHOLOGICAL THERAPY UNDER THE SPONSORSHIP OF THE CIA WHILE THE CIA CONTINUES VIGOROUS COVERT AND OVERT OPERATIONS TO MAINTAIN SECURITY IN THE ENEMY NATION.........REMEMBER, WE NEED TO KEEP OUR FRIENDS CLOSE BUT OUR ENEMIES CLOSER......

While each powerful dictator has been co-opted and on the CIA payroll, the US government should give the dictator every kind of incentive to push for democratic and human rights reforms in his country

....ALL AREAS THAT HAVE BIOLOGICAL, CHEMICAL AND NUCLEAR WEAPONS WILL BE SATURATED WITH OUR CIA OPERATIONS.....

....WHILE CONVINCING THE LEADERS THROUGH FINANCIAL AND SECURITY ASSURANCES THAT THEY DO NOT NEED TO PURSUE CHEMICAL, BIOLOGICAL AND NUCLEAR PROGRAMS

(12) The US government should have a comprehensive whistleblower program whereby whistleblowers in the military/industrial/security complex will be protected from backlash just like US spies are protected as to source and methods.

For example, the whistleblower in the Abu Ghraib scandal had to relocate himself to a secret location due to fear of being killed due to the fact that his name was released by Defense Secretary Rumsfeld. The practice of the releasing of names of whistleblowers in order to prevent future whistleblowers from coming forward; that practise should be stopped.

Whistle blowers in the military/industrial/security complex should be encouraged to come forward and rewarded for their actions whenever they can prove any wrong doing between the military/industrial complex and politicians

(13) Payments to victims of collateral damage should be increased from the present $2500 to at least $100,000 per victim so that politcians will realize the enormous cost of war and its effects.

In this iraq war, as of 2006, its been estimated that as many as 655000 civilians have lost their lives and even though most of the victims are victims of terrorists, nevertheless, if the US was not in Iraq, Saddam in the whole of 1998 killed 2000 political dissidents and there is no reason to believe Saddam could have killed any number more than 2000 in 2006 if he was still in power.

The US paid victims of the attacks on September 11, 2001 about 1.3 million each, even though the US did not cause the deaths of the victims on September 11, 2001, so likewise, the US is responsible in paying the $100,000 for every victim of this unecessary Iraq war and payments could total to $65.5 billion dollars and this kind of cost will make politicians think twice about starting wars.

(14) Ban the sale of weapons and weapons systems to any country. The collateral damage caused by US made weapons further enrages people whose families are victims of collateral damage due to US made weapons and terrorists use collateral damage as a recruiting tool for more terrorists.

(15) Curriculum in schools should have compulsory subjects talking about blow back, post traumatic disorders experienced by both soldiers and innocent kids in war zones plus the importance of making sure that both the security cleared staff of the intelligence committees in the house and senate are able to see everything the president sees from the CIA in real time .

wounded veterans should be allowed to talk to school kids about their lives after being discharged from the military.

Families of those soldiers deployed overseas should be allowed to talk to school kids about life in the states while their loved ones are deployed overseas.

(16) Both the security cleared staff of the members of the intelligence committees in the house and senate should be able to see everything the president sees from the CIA in real time in order to prevent another gulf of tonkin resolution where the president is able to spin intelligence for his own political ambitions

(17) Liberal immigration policies to allow war zone refugees to enter the US. By allowing all war refugees to enter the US, politicians will realize the enormous costs of waging a war.

As of 2008. millions of Iraqis are either displaced within the country or in neighboring countries and the US government should be supporting all of them on a monthly basis, giving them a basic allowance and promises of rebuilding their homes and finding them jobs after the conflict has been resolved and matching their salaries dollar for dollar up to an amount that gives them a decent standard of living.

Refugees are prime candidates for recruitment by terrorists, so the above incentives will make the refugees think that the US government is on their side and cares about their pitiful plight

(18) All those politicians who are in favor of war; those politicians' kids who are eligible to enrol in the military will be asked to volunteer for the front lines and all those who refuse, their parents' names will be published in newspapers telling people which war mongering poitician kids volunteered for the front lines and which did not; further giving poiticians the incentive not to start wars in the first place.

(19) For soldiers to be truly in a voluntary role, the following should be done by the US government :

(a) stop the massive advertising budget and signing bonuses employed by the US government; if its truly a voluntary service, why entice people to join since people are waiting in line to join the military or at least the politicians will have you believe that

(b) stop giving the impression that the US government is bribing people to join and recruiting stations should not be enticing impressionable high schoolers with promises of tens of thousands of dollars in signing bonuses, school scholarships and grants, glamor and glitz and shiny uniforms and travel and vacations to exotic locations and money and power trips and career advancements and opportunities to play with war "toys"...

High school kids almost always think they are invincible; so it is up to the recruiting station to tell the impressionable high schoolers the reality of being on the front lines and to give them the correct statistics regarding bodily injury or worse at various positions in the military.

(c) before anybody can enrol in the armed forces, they would be required to look at a one hour video at home about the horrors of front line action where they could witness their friends being blown apart or maimed for life and the subsequent collateral damage where the recruit might potentially have to face the families of children killed or maimed for life due to collateral damage and after viewing the video, both the parents and the potential recruit will come to a decision that can be called truly voluntary. Also, the video will contain unedited and frank interviews with severely deformed, maimed and paralyzed soldiers who tell about their experiences in life after having been discharged in order to give volunteers an accurate picture of life after being severely maimed, deformed or paralyzed for life.

(d) Also the recruit will be shown videos of families of soldiers and the hardships they face at home because of their loved ones being deployed overseas and the psychological turmoil of children with dads on the front lines

(e) Before any war or mission is declared, front line soldiers should vote in a secret ballot whether they will be willing to go and die for that particular war

(f) lastly, the paper the recruit finally signs should read that the President will send the recruit into harm's way into wars of choice or necessity

To make sure that those who volunteer in the military, do not allow the recruiters to make the potential recruiters think that the armed forces is just about school scholarships and grants, glamor and glitz and shiny uniforms and travel and vacations to exotic locations and money and power trips and career advancements and opportunities to play with war "toys"...

High school kids almost always think they are invincible; so it is up to the recruiting station to tell the impressionable high schoolers the reality of being on the front lines and to give them the correct statistics regarding bodily injury or worse at various positions in the military.

.. before anybody can enrol in the armed forces, they would be required to look at a one hour video at home about the horrors of front line action where they could witness their friends being blown apart or maimed for life and the subsequent collateral damage where the recruit might potentially have to face the families of children killed or maimed for life due to collateral damage and after viewing the video, both the parents and the potential recruit will come to a decision that can be called truly voluntary. Also, the video will contain unedited and frank interviews with severely deformed, maimed and paralyzed soldiers who tell about their experiences in life after having been discharged in order to give volunteers an accurate picture of life after being severely maimed, deformed or paralyzed for life.

(20) To have a reasonable advertising budget and no signing bonuses. Since the military says that Americans are patriotic, why have signing bonuses ?

Why is it that the military is probably the only US organization that spends vast amounts of money on advertising on tv for jobs and recruiting bonuses when they keep telling us that Americans are patriotic and are eager to join and if Americans are truly eager to join, why the huge advertising budget and the massive signing bonuses ?

Does it not give the impression that Americans join because of enticements and if the military wants the public to think otherwise and wants the public to think that Americans join due to patriotism, duty and honor, should they not get rid of massive advertising for jobs and get rid of huge signing bonuses ?

All major companies in the US do not advertise for jobs on tv and they do not have massive signing bonuses and one would think that Americans are more patriotic in joining regular corporations than joining the military.

(21) Before any war is declared, front line soldiers should be given an opportunity to voice their opinions through a secret ballot (since they are the ones who will bear the brunt of any war)

Before any war, permanently disabled veterans who have experienced front line action should be allowed to vote by secret ballot in order to voice their opinion about any decision to go to war because politicians need to know the realities of war and whether they are willing deliberately put into harm's way soldiers who will be the future badly wounded veterans

Conducting regular surveys in war zones to find out the effects of war on the soldiers and the children in war zones and also long term surveys of veterans of war to find out why so many veterans end up either getting divorced, committing suicide, drug addicted or homeless. These surveys will help politicians realize the enormous physical, emotional and mental costs that war inflicts on all those in the war zones.

soldiers in a war zone are constantly under stress and many shoot first and then ask questions later. for example, soldiers have been known to clear houses by throwing grenades into them, not knowing who is inside and deaths of unarmed men, women, children and babies have been reported .

Collateral killings only serve as recruiting propaganda for terrorists and the enemies of the US; so sending our troops overseas should be avoided at all costs

(22) Greatly expanding the veterans budget will help reduce the backlog of 600000 claims and also make politicians realize the enormous cost of war and the resulting hundreds of thousands of veterans who need help with post-traumatic disorders and being maimed for life and having to take care of veterans throughout their lives so they do not end up homeless or committing suicide.

As of 2007, its estimated that it will take about 500 billion to adequately take care of veterans including lifetime treatment for posttraumatic disorders. Expanding the veterans budget will also make politicians think twice about going to war.

(23) CONVINCE ALL THOSE WHO BENEFIT FROM PERPETUAL WAR INCLUDING THINK TANKS AND NATION BUILDING RECONSTRUCTION COMPANIES THAT PEACE BRINGS MORE PROSPERITY AND RAISES THE STANDARD OF LIVING FOR EVERYBODY AND THEY NEED TO CONCENTRATE ON PROJECTS AND BUSINESSES THAT DO NOT ENGAGE IN THE BUSINESS OF PERPETUAL WAR AND THEY SHOULD DIVERSIFY THEIR INTERESTS AND NOT JUST CONCENTRATE ON ALLOWING CONDITIONS TO PREVAIL THAT LEAD TO WAR........ONE GOOD EXAMPLE OF THINK TANKS THAT BENEFIT FROM PERPETUAL WAR COULD BE SEEN IN THE ANSWER THAT 1500 EXPERTS GAVE THE 911 COMMISSION ON TERRORIST ATTACKS.........ALL 1500 EXPERTS TOLD THE COMMISSION THAT WE CANNOT DO ANYTHING THAT WOULD CAUSE THE TERRORISTS NOT TO WANT TO ATTACK US

ALSO CONVINCE THE AMERICAN INDUSTRIAL DEFENSE COMPLEX TO CONCENTRATE ON MAKING EQUIPMENT FOR COVERT CIA OPERATIONS AND NOT WASTE TIME AND MONEY ON COSTLY WEAPONS SYSTEMS THAT CAN ONLY BE GEARED TOWARDS A MAJOR WAR

CONVINCE ALL DEFENSE CONTRACTORS THAT WAR IS NOT THE ANSWER AND IF WE HAVE A LONG TERM PEACE, EVERYBODY BENEFITS AND THAT THE WORLD WOULD BE A MUCH MORE PROSPEROUS AND HAPPIER PLACE WITHOUT WAR OR THE THREAT OF WAR.
IF WE CAN REDUCE THE INFLUENCE OF THE INDUSTRIAL DEFENSE COMPLEX LOBBY , THE NATION BUILDING RECONSTRUCTION COMPANIES AND ALL THOSE WHO BENEFIT FROM PERPETUAL WAR AND THEIR LOBBYISTS IN CONGRESS, WE WILL GO A LONG WAY TO AVERTING ALL OUT WAR

(24) We should concentrate on making sure that terrorists do not get a hold of radiological material in order to make a dirty bomb. The CIA has prevented transit of nuclear material from the former Soviet republics and from Pakistan. We should make sure that all fissile material and nuclear material be secured instead of spending our precious time in going to war.

(25) Before implementing point 25, the US should adopt the foreign policy of Switzerland which showed its expertise in making peace and was not invaded by Germany in World War Two and even has an embassy in Iran today.

A neutral US would benefit everybody and make possible the role of the US as a true peacemaker and an honest broker in making peace between enemies and allow for the free access of US goods and services throughout the world including enemy states which in turn will improve the living standards of all Americans in the long run.

Following the model of Switzerland, the US government, instead of spending $500 on unnecessary defense, the US government should spend between 50 and 100 billion on equipping and training state militias along the lines of Switzerland to concetrate on true defense and not be able to employ our troops overseas because overseas deployment actually creates too much collateral damage since the military is geared mostly for war.

(26) While the defense/industrial/security complex enjoys the profits that come from war, the larger economy suffers as resources are directed towards the military/industrial/security complex ;

so the US government should redirect wasteful defense dollars to areas of research in various sectors that will lead to cheaper gas, more sophisticated technology that is demanded world wide, medical breakthroughs in curing cancer and other deadly diseases, safer and cleaner air, water, food etc

The US should give financial incentives to US corporations to develop and create jobs in all areas of the world that are prone to being influenced by terrorists or potential dictators

(27) Not a single sanction against any country because sanctions only hurt the people but not the regime. This includes embargoes, boycotts of goods and services.

Example : The Olympics in China should not be boycotted but particpants can wear tibetan arm bands showing solidarity with the Tibetan people

(28) In the long run, just like we have banned the proliferation of nuclear weapons, the major powers should agree to ban all weapons of all kinds, from missiles to bombs. from tanks to fighter planes, from every country on earth.

All dual use facilities that can be used to produce weapons will be internationalized and secured by the US/UN armed police. Only the US/UN armed police will have more firepower than the regular police in each country.

The US ,in March 2007, warned China not to produce an offensive capability but the US has to go one step further in abolishing all weapons and weapons systems on the face of the earth including all US weapons and weapons systems.

A FEW EXAMPLES OF THE NUMEROUS BENEFITS OF PEACE INCLUDE THE FOLLOWING:

(a) Not living in fear anymore is a great
dividend that peace will bring. Not having to
look over our shoulders every time we visit the
Middle East or any area where terrorists are
known to operate in (which is basically now
everywhere including Europe ). Not living in
fear anymore would result in a happier and
healthier life for everybody including little
children who have been always traumatized for
life due to constant conflict or war. During
the bombing of Baghdad, the shock and awe
resulted in children having to be medicated due
to the trauma of constant bombings.

(b) Better lasting and expanded roads, bridges (a research report in 2007 stated that one in four bridges are structurally deficient)
tunnels and utility infrastructure that does
not break down easily, greatly eases traffic
congestion ( no more frustration in waiting in
stop and go traffic ) and far fewer
electricity blackouts
(no spoiled food in the refrigerator because of
a electricity black out)

(c) Better health care for everybody

(d) Lower taxes

(e) Better distribution of wealth which raises the standard of living for everybody

(f) Cheaper gas and utility bills

(g) greater funding at the local level so that police do not have to be overzealous in giving out traffic tickets for minor infractions to supplement the local budget

(h) Healthier environment because of greater research dollars resulting in breakthroughs in the areas of pollution control of the air, water and environment we live in

(i) the more spent on medical research might result in greater breakthroughs in medicine. An example in breakthroughs can be seen in the Christopher Reeves Foundation for spinal cord injuries. BECAUSE OF EXTRA FUNDING FROM THE REEVES FAMILY IN THE AREA OF SPINAL CORD INJURIES, MANY PARALYZED PEOPLE ARE BEGINNING TO ACTUALLY WALK. BY DIVERTING VALUABLE RESOURCES FROM DEFENSE APPROPRIATIONS TO MEDICINE, WE CAN HOPE TO SEE MANY MORE BREAKTHROUGHS and happier lives.

(j) the more money spent on technological research will result in products that could raise the standards of living of everybody

(k) the more money spent on Internet and computer technology would result in a greater number of people benefiting from breakthroughs that result in a much faster and efficient Internet and much faster speeds in downloading, viewing pages and far fewer crashes and congestion problems on the Internet

(L) THE WORLD WOULD TRULY BE ASTOUNDED THAT WE
ARE WILLING TO BE TRULY ANTI-WAR AND A PEACE
LOVING EMPIRE WHICH NO EMPIRE IN HISTORY HAS
EVER DONE..........THE ADMIRATION FOR THE US
WOULD INCREASE TREMENDOUSLY AROUND THE WORLD IF
WE HAVE THE SKILLS TO KEEP THE PEACE WITHOUT
WAR AND DO EVERYTHING WITHIN OUR POWER TO
PREVENT THE ABORTION OF OUR BABIES........SO
MANKIND CAN TRULY ACCOMPLISH THINGS THAT NO
PREVIOUS GENERATION COULD ACCOMPLISH IN EVERY
AREA OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY

(m) Our soldiers would thank us if we have the
skills to maintain the peace without war
because its cruel sending our soldiers
deliberately into harm's way because war brings
post traumatic disorders to numerous soldiers
who end up addicted to drugs or dying from
suicide or suicide by cop or divorced or having
sweat drenched nightmares or being depressed or
becoming homeless. One-third of homeless people
are veterans of previous wars including the
gulf war

(n) War corrupts even the best of people. war can bring out the worst in even good people. Good US soldiers have been known to torture and rape innocent girls in war zones and if we want to keep bringing out the best in our soldiers, we need to prevent war

(o) World wide peace will result in good will
towards America and an increase in American
goods and services being consumed by those who
are thankful to America for bringing peace to
the world without war.

(p) The more people who are saved due to peace
throughout the world, the greater the number of
people who need goods and services and this
will benefit American companies in selling
their goods and services to the third world

IN CLOSING :

Even though the rich and powerful are clamoring

and persuading their politician friends to

eventually spend trillions of dollars like they

spent wastefully on the cold war in order to

enrich their political supporters who are

owners of the defense/industrial/security

complex, but the wasteful spending cannot

adequately protect every railroad, power

station, power grid, nuclear reactor, cargo

container, school, university, mall, bridge,

tunnel ,dam , air plane , ship , multi-storey

building, theme park or a location where

thousands of people gather..

On 4/16/07 at Virginia Tech University, 32 people died

from gun shot wounds suffered at the hands of one

gun man. Can we protect the thousands of colleges in

the US if terrorists targeted US colleges ?

......IN ORDER TO ADEQUATELY PROTECT ALL THE

ABOVE....WE NEED TO IMPLEMENT THE 28 POINT PLAN

AND IN SO DOING, WE CAN RELEASE VALUABLE

RESOURCES TO PROJECTS THAT WILL TRULY BENEFIT A

MUCH LARGER SEGMENT OF THE POPULATION THAN WHAT

IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW..

During World War One on christmas day,

the "evil" german soldiers

came out of their trenches risking their lives

and defying orders in order shake hands with

the "enemy" the british soldiers who could have

easily shot them out of fear, but both sides

emerged from their trenches to shake hands

during christmas day

the "evil" german soldiers had hands just as

warm and just as much made of flesh and blood

hands that used to hold their children close

not evil hands but hands reaching out in friendship

.....it goes to show that if only we can for one

moment think about situations from the "enemies"

point of view we will be able to see them also as human beings with

the same aspirations and goals that we have

but the rich and powerful on both sides will never let this happen

because they know that war will bring about the spoils of war and

allowing the soldiers to see that their enemy is not evil but

actually just as human as they are and probably the enemy

soldiers were in the war due to being forced to fight or due to the

stockholm syndrome that developed a connection to the dictatorship

due to propaganda and brainwashing techniques that even the US

military uses on recruits and so one can see why the rich and

powerful on either side do not want their soldiers to think of the

other side as human.

the rich and powerful will never let this happen because the rich

and powerful who own the defense/industrial/security complex know

that through war can they keep getting richer and more powerful.

Every time you see a child weeping and crying

uncontrollably and visibly traumatized by war or

terrorism because of either her parents being

killed or maimed and deformed for life due to a

bomb, your heart goes out to that child and all

the thousands of children affected by war and

If the chicken hawks, before sending our

soldiers deliberately into harm's way, would

just look into the eyes of the children of the

country they were going to bomb and think of

those children as one of their own children,

they just might reverse their position and do

everything within their power to prevent war.

IF YOU KNEW THAT YOUR ACTIONS WOULD GUARANTEE

THE DEATH OF AT LEAST ONE INNOCENT CHILD,

WOULD YOU CONTINUE WITH YOUR ACTIONS OR WOULD

YOU DO EVERYTHING WITHIN YOUR POWER TO LOOK FOR

ALTERNATIVE SOLUTIONS ?

WAR GUARANTEES THE DEATH OF JUST NOT ONE

INNOCENT CHILD BUT THOUSANDS AND EVEN TENS OF

THOUSANDS OR MORE INNOCENT CHILDREN AND BABIES.

WAR IS NOT THE SOLUTION TO THE PROBLEM.....

.........WAR IS THE PROBLEM.

Dave,

Hitler assumed that all jews thought alike.

You cannot assume that all muslims think alike and in fact one muslim told me that within sunni islam there are like 100 different sects, just as the numerous denominations in Christianity.

The reason Hitler was able to hijack German democracy is by convincing the Germans that all Jews thought alike and that Jews were going to annihilate the German nation but even if some jews did want to control Germany and subjugate the German people, that is not what most Jews are like.

Indicting an entire race or religion for the crimes of a few is what leads to fear mongering, hate and eventual genocide as what happened in Germany where innocent jewish children were murdered because of what a tiny minority of jews might be plotting against the German people

DDA,

Just as christians do not follow everything Christianity states, the same goes for muslims who do not follow everything islam states

Dave,

have you met any muslims ?

Do Jews follow the commands in Deut, 20:16 ?

Since Jews do not follow their own religion and Christians do not follow the pacifism of Christ, do you really think Islam is more powerful than Judaism or Christianity and is able to make muslims follow islam, overriding their free will and making them into "ants" or "robots".

Do you really think Islam is more powerful than Judaism or Christianity ?

Dave,

have you met any muslims ?

Do Jews follow the commands in Deut, 20:16 ?

Since Jews do not follow their own religion and Christians do not follow the pacifism of Christ, do you really think Islam is more powerful than Judaism or Christianity and is able to make muslims follow islam, overriding their free will and making them into "ants" or "robots".

Do you really think Islam is more powerful than Judaism or Christianity ?

Dave,

Is Islam more powerful than christianity or judaism ?

DDA,

Are muslims human beings or not ?

dumbledoresarmy , you stated :

in some cases *possesses* its adherents). Some are more controlled by it and some less, but enough of them are fully inhabited by it, that the Ummah presents a significant threat to its non-Muslim neighbours.

Comment :

Since you say, only some muslims are "possessed" by Islam, does that explain the fact that more non-muslims have killed their fellow American soldiers than muslims have killed their fellow soldiers since, like you said, only some muslims are "possessed " ?

I would be more than willing to agree with you but the facts sadly point to non-muslims being more genocidal than muslims.

You can point to any one muslim country having more murders than a particular non-muslim country in NW Europe but at the same time, the top 12 countries for murders are non-muslim, so apparently, islam is not powerful enough to possess enough muslim adherents for muslim countries to appear in the top 12 countries for murder .

Dave,

How do you explain that the top 12 countries in the world for murder are not muslim countries ?

If criminals murder somebody in the name of religion and other criminals murder somebody in the name of hate or some other ideology; to the victims, does it really matter whether they are being murdered due to religion or due to some other ideology ?

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :
45ch

DO YOU AGREE with the laws that the Maldives are trying to enact, to completely suppress the public practice of any religion other than Islam?

Do you think those laws are good? Yes or No?

Comment :

If I answer your questions, will you answer mine ?

Supressing public practice of religion is wrong.

How many muslim countries suppress the public practice of non-muslim religions ?

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

Would you like to see laws like that imposed on everybody all over the world?

Yes or No?

Comment :

Anybody should be free to practice their religion in private and in public and should be free to evangelize to others.

Why do people in non-muslim countries become muslims ?

here is an Australian who became a muslim and she seems happy :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kzbZsg9Uao&feature=related

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

If, in a country you lived in, it was proposed that ALL criticism or ridicule 'insulting' of Islam be made punishable by fining, corporal punishment, imprisonment or even execution: would you agree with such legislation, or would you oppose it?

Comment :

Anybody should be free to insult Jesus or Muhammad, since Judgement is in the hands of God.

How many muslim countries execute or imprison people for insulting Islam ?

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

Would you be prepared to write a letter of protest to the government of the Maldives, telling them that by their harsh treatment of apostates from Islam, they are in breach of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which includes the right to change one's religion?

Comment :

If the Maldives imprisons anybody for leaving Islam, I will be prepared to write to protest such actions.

How many muslim countries imprison people for leaving Islam ?

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

DO YOU AGREE with Saudi Arabian practice of confiscating Bibles, rosaries, etc, from Christians entering their country, and the harsh punishments they mete out to those expats (Christian or Hindu) who are caught behind closed doors privately practising their faiths?

Comment :

Saudi Arabian govt, an ally of the corrupt US govt, is also corrupt and is cruel to dissidents and I do not support either the corrupt policies of the US govt or the corrupt policies of the Saudi Arabian govt which is wrong in suppressing freedom of non-muslims.

How many muslim govts suppress non-muslim religions like the Saudi govt ?

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

Do you agree with the Blasphemy Laws in Pakistan, under which both Muslims and non-Muslims who are accused by vindictive Muslims of the sin of 'insulting Islam', are regularly arrested, imprisoned and sometimes lynched and killed?

Comment :

Anybody should be allowed to abuse the bible or Koran and should be allowed to insult Jesus or Muhammad.

How many muslim countries imprison or kill anybody who insults islam ?

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

Do you think that Theo Van Gogh *deserved* to be killed, as he was, by a Muslim 'offended' by Theo's critique of Islam in 'Submission'?

Yes or No?

Comment :

Van Gogh was killed by a criminal, just as 2000 murders a year happen in the US because of criminal husbands or boyfriends because they feel insulted when their girlfriends or wives cheat.

How many muslims ( out of 1.5 billion muslims ) in the entire world are killing anybody for insulting islam ?

I am guessing hate crimes from muslims are not anymore than hate crimes from non-muslims.

Just in the US alone:

Reported crimes against Muslims decreased from 156 to 115, 8.2 percent of the religion-based crimes. This is still more than four times the number of hate crimes reported against Muslims in 2000.

ref : http://www.civilrights.org/publications/hatecrimes/nature-and-magnitude.html

Dave,

Have you read the genocidal commands in Deut. 20:16.

Jerusalem-based Holocaust Studies Professor Yehuda Bauer stated "As a Jew, I must live with the fact that the civilization I inherited ... encompasses the call for genocide in its canon."

Islam does not command genocide, unlike Judaism.

What specific islamic text commands murder ?

muslims are murdering infidels every day ?

Do you have a reference ?

I am sure you have heard of stories or read the news about your town's murders etc and most of them were done by non-muslims and probably non by Al-Qaeda so you are more in danger from your fellow citizens.

If you were living in a muslim country, there is a good chance you could be a victim of a muslim but at the same time, the murder rates in a place like Saudi Arabia (rank : 61) is much lower than in the US ( rank : 24) and several muslim countries have lower murder rates than the US.

In fact, the countries with the most murder rates, the top 12 are non-muslim.

ref : http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

ref : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Dave,

No, I am not a muslim and never was a muslim. My name is David and I was born into Lutheranism and later was "born again" into Christ, ten years ago.

The texts that you showed still does not even come close to the genocidal texts in Deuteronomy where children and babies are to be all killed, including animals, whether the non-jews in the promised land convert or not.

So why don't Jews commit genocide on all non-jews in the promised land which includes lands up to the area of Iraq ?

Could it be because, even though there is no time limit to those commands, Jews interpret those genocidal texts in a metaphorical or philosophical way, just as muslims interpret those texts you gave as pertaining to the times in which Muhammad lived ?

Because if muslims interpret those texts as being relevant to today, the millions of muslims in America will be murdering non-muslims on a daily basis in America, unless the non-muslims convert, but is that the case ?

And how do you explain numerous muslim countries that do not have Sharia as the law ?

Dave,

Jesus said, "blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called children of God".

I have been blessed in my life because I am a peacemaker and if you want to be blessed in your life, become a peacemaker because hate only consumes your soul like a cancer and that is one reason people get cancer because they are not able to love the enemy as Jesus told us to.

DDA,

The Maldives will reform, especially if the US govt gives them the incentive to reform, but sadly, the US govt is not interested in either Saudi Arabia or the Maldives in reforming but is more interested in proliferating weapons throughout the world including weapons to dictators in the muslim world.

Even in the Sharia states of Malaysia, there is more freedom enjoyed among non-muslims fifty years after independence, compared to slavery still being present in the US, fifty years after its independence, which goes to show that muslim countries like Malaysia have progressed faster than the same time period in America's independence.

And how do you account for numerous muslim countries not having Sharia ? could it be because muslims can be progressive minded ?

As Ms Nonie Darwish was as she chose to leave Islam.

which goes to show that islam cannot override the free will of muslims as Nonie Darwish has demonstrated

Dave -

I know this creature 45ch is particularly annoying. But don't let him get your goat, mate - because if he can provoke you into saying something intemperate that could be nipped out of context and then used to discredit Mr Spencer, I'm sure he'll be very pleased indeed.

*I* know, because I know *you*, that the last lines of your latest post above are essentially putting the Mohammedan on notice: that *if* and when the Mohammedans within the USA do suddenly decide that they are strong enough and that the time is ripe, and break out in open violence against the non-Muslims, you as a free non-Muslim will be armed and ready to defend yourself. But a casual and careless reader might construe it as a personal threat to that particular Mohammedan, in the here and now.

You might want to reread and reconsider.

Let's move on and leave 45ch to sit at the end of the thread all by himself. He can have the last word if he wants it; because it doesn't mean he's won; it just means he doesn't know when to shut up.

Davegreybeard

Nice to meet *you* here, too.

Dave,

Why did the early christians not rely on the sword to evangelize but rather went to their deaths praising God and relying totally on God ?

Is the sword stronger than the Word of God ?

The fact is that the blood of martyrs paved the way for God to change the hearts of the terrorist Romans because if the Christians used the sword to spread the Word, then christianity would have ended up being a small religion because God would have abandoned christians but God knows best and the best way to evangelize is through the power of the Word of God and not through the power of the sword.

You will find that in the past when muslims spread their religion through the sword, they still died but they died without God on their side whereas the christians who died without fighting back with the sword, those christians died with God on their side.

Why do you think the Word of God states the following regarding the fact that in relying totally on God, God will never abandon us, even unto death :

"And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
What, then, shall we say in response to this?

If God is for us, who can be against us?

He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written:
"For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[m] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Amen !!! ( Romans 8: 28-39 )

So its your choice: do you want to die fighting with the sword and God not being on your side or do you want to die totally relying on God, fighting with the Word of God and God being on your side when you die for His Glory ?

Indicting all muslims for the crimes of a few muslims is not going to win God over to your side.

Did Jesus know best when He told the Jews to be pacifists and not to use the sword but to flee Jerusalem when the terrorist Romans were going to destroy Jerusalem in AD 70 ?

So Dave, be a peacemaker and I assure you that , just as God has blessed me, He will bless you too and call you His child as Jesus said, "blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called children of God".

DDA,

I am glad to see that you do not want to depend on the sword, as Dave seems to imply but rather the force of words to push your agenda.

Mr. Spencer is not worried about being discredited because there are enough "Daves" out there to keep Mr. Spencer in business and selling books to further spread fear, a fear of a tiny minority of muslims who will never conquer the world or even change any country's political system.

Dave,

Since you say the Truth will kill Islam, what is the problem then ?

Demsci, you stated :

I've been reading your comments and you sound like either a Muslim or an apologist of Islam to me.

Comment :

If I sound like a muslim, its only because I will always defend muslims, jews and christians against those who label the majority of religious adherents as criminal for the crimes of the minority, just as Hitler labeled all jews as criminal, for the criminal acts of a few jews.

I have never defended Islam and never will defend islam but I will always defend muslims because muslims, just like Americans are a good and decent people.

Demsci, you stated :

You consistently blame the US government. But that government can at least be changed by the people. And I give the American leaders much more credit than you do, despite all these undemocratic interests of the military industrial complex, at times wanting wars and wanting to sell weapons.

Comment :

Yes, the US govt is the cause of all the major problems the world has faced, from allowing Nazism and Communism to expand, to having blowback policies that resulted in WW2, the Cold War and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

I cannot think of any other govt that had blowback policies that has caused so much pain and suffering in the past 100 years.

If the US govt never was a military power, there would not be WW2, the Cold War and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, all of which has caused hundreds of millions of people either dying horrifying deaths or being maimed, disfigured, deformed , blinded or paralyzed for life and all of which also causing hundreds of thousands of our beloved soldiers either dying horrifying deaths or being maimed, disfigured, deformed, blinded or paralyzed for life while their families and children of soldiers suffer at home with nightmares, depression and anxiety attacks wondering whether their dads on the battlefield will survive.

Demsci, you stated :

The neocons surrounding George Bush did indeed want reforms, to bring democracy to Iraq. They did see that the spread of democracy was very important. Obama too stressed good governance when he visited Africa.

Comment :

It is wrong of the US govt to try to pretend to liberate Iraqis by collaterally killing the very Iraqis the US govt. pretends to liberate.

Because if the US govt is truly interested in democracy in Iraq, the US govt would have given Saddam Hussein the financial, diplomatic and security incentives to push for democratic reforms instead of destroying Iraq for the profit agenda of the military/industrial complex and the re-election power agendas of the puppets of the military/industrial complex in the US govt

The US govt is not interested in democracy in other countries but is more interested in propping up cruel dictators like in Saudi Arabia and creating markets for its weapons systems while doing very undemocratic things like extra judicial assassinations.

Demsci, you stated :

Blaming the democratic governments more than the Islamic or dictatorial governments in Islamic countries is I think a sign of a culture-relativist who estimates that the democrats are higher evolved, more responsible, hence the ones to approach to try to effect change, hence the ones that are criticized the most.

Instead of regarding the Islamic leaders more innocent than the democratic leaders I counter that you, subsconsciously, estimate the Islamic leaders and people much less capable of changing, as they are more primitive, more animal-like, childlike, simple-minded than Western leaders and people.

Comment :

Islamic or dictatorial govts are reactionary and usually listen to the superpowers since the superpowers are the ones selling cruel dictators, weapons systems so I blame the US govt more than I blame dictators because the dictators are basically subordinate to superpowers.

Before Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait, he wanted to know whether the US govt will object but when he was assured by the US ambassador that the US govt will not intervene in local disputes, Saddam thought he had the green light to invade Kuwait, not knowing that invading Kuwait will be a great profit bonanza for the US military/industrial complex as only during war do no-bid contracts go out to supporters of the US govt in the military/industrial complex and war profiteering is the best way to make money but Saddam did not realize that going to war with Kuwait will result in the US govt embarking on another war for profit

Demsci, you stated :

I consider your comparison of Malaysia 50 years after independence and USA 50 years after independence almost intentionally malicious. In 1826 America had slavery, but it still was part of the then existing world and it already was ahead then. Its white people at least had been able to free themselves, while the Malays were still too weak to do it. No doubt keeping their own slaves.

Comment :

How was the US terrorist system on slavery in 1826 any better than the rest of the world on slavery ?

I am sure, just as the US govt gave all people total freedom after about 200 years from independence by abolishing Jim Crow laws, I am sure all muslim countries will look like the US , after 200 years of independence.

Total freedom takes time to evolve and already there does exist numerous non-sharia states and even in the sharia states of Malaysia, non-muslims enjoy freedoms that blacks did not enjoy in the US in a similar time period after independence

Demsci, you stated :

Islamic leaders feared freedom more than they feared Saddam Hussein, who by the way killed approx. 300.000 Shiites after the uprising in 1991 and drained the marshes, forcing hundreds of thousands of Marsh-Arabs, who had lived there for thousands of years, out of these marshes, losing their livelihood. The Americans flooded the marshes again.

Comment :

If the gulf war did not take place, do you think Saddam would have killed 300,000 shias and drained the marsh lands ?

In war, people die and that is why it is important to not start wars in the first place. If the US govt never escalated the Vietnam or Korean conflict, millions of people's lives could have been saved.

If the US did not instigate wars between Iran and Iraq, do you think Saddam would have turned out to be the mass murderer he was ?

Demsci, you stated :

The 655.000 dead in Iraq in 2006 might be much exaggerated, and you yourself admitted by far the most were killed by other Muslims, fearing freedom as enemy of Islam much more than dictators like Saddam Hussein under whom Islam can shield itself from free speech and survive just fine.

Comment :

I blame the US govt for most of the deaths in Iraq since if the war had never happened, 655000 Iraqis, women, children and babies will be alive today.

In fact, according to UN reports, the life expectancy of Iraqi children was increasing before the cruel sanctions on Iraq took place.

In war the most despicable things happen. Do you think our soldiers would have raped a 14 year old Iraqi girl and murdered her entire family including her baby sister if war with Iraq had never happened ?

We have read about numerous cases in the US in which loving fathers in our non-war zone and trauma-less America have nonetheless terrorized, tortured and killed their own children or pregnant wives, either through suffocation, drowning, hanging, beheading, stabbings or shootings,

so is it surprising that in Iraq or Afghanistan today, in the trauma of a war zone, where numerous victims see their loved ones being killed or blinded, maimed, deformed or paralyzed or disfigured for life due to either US bombings or sectarian violence, that those victims are vulnerable to Al-Qaida's propaganda which is able to influence the victims to take revenge and kill Muslims allied with the US or collaterally/accidentally kill Muslim children in the process of attacking US forces or Shia militias ?

If you were in a war zone and you see your family murdered by rebels or collaterally killed by the occupying force, knowing that you do not compromise with injustice , what would you do ?

When a foreign power occupies another country or when separatist movements reject the govt., it tends to result in terrorism, as was seen by the torture that many loyalist Americans/British went through by being tarred ( boiling tar being poured on them) because they were seen as loyal to the occupying British forces by the American rebels.

Another form of terrorism was the killing of british troops by the American rebels, after the British troops had surrendered.

ref : http://home.golden.net/~marg/bansite/banecdotes/96quarter.html

Lynchings were ordered by American Patriot Judge Charles Lynch on the terrorized American loyalists who were loyal to the British Crown.

So terrorism can be the result of being in a war zone and its either terrorism from the occupying force through collateral actions or the terrorism of the rebels against those loyal to the occupying force.

The fact that most American loyalists, who were loyal to Britain, fled the US, shows the terror they faced, not only from being tarred or properties confiscated but being lynched to death.

ref : http://www.redcoat.me.uk/

Demsci, you stated :

Again you seem to portray these Muslim killers as incapable of being held accountable, so even for THEIR killings you hold the US government, chosen by a substantial part of the American people, accountable. In my estimation this is not because the US govt. were the most guilty, because freedom-oppressing Islamic leaders and killers are, but in your subconscious the most childlike, simple-minded of the 2 sides. Criticizing the Islamic leaders and people and trying to persuade them to change is in your subsconscious useless, just like it is useless to criticize and try to change lions, sheep or other animals.

Comment :

Yes, muslim killers must be held accountable, just as the American soldiers who raped the 14 year old Iraqi girl and her whole family including her baby sister but at the same time, if the war had never taken place, do you think those American soldiers would have raped a girl in the US ? probably not and similarly, if the war had never happened, most probably those muslim killers would not have killed anybody.

War causes anger and rage and sometimes people kill out of revenge seeing their loved ones dying at the hands of the rebels or due to the collateral actions of the US govt.

Dave, you stated :

“Since you say the Truth will kill Islam, what is the problem then?”

The problem is THE LIE

and since you are a propagator of THE LIE,
YOU are part of the problem.

Comment :

What is the lie ?

Why is the lie the problem when islam is already dead ?

If islam is already dead due to the truth, anybody can lie as much as he wants but islam is already dead, so I don't see the problem.

Is something which is dead, dangerous ?

Demsci,

Thank you for your thoughtful response.

You need to see the movie "Born on the Fourth of July" (1989) to see the reality of war. Tom Cruise stars in the movie and gives a very accurate portrayal of war.

Some in Jihad watch say that muslims are a threat to western civilization.

If every criminal act is a threat to western civilization, they are underestimating the power of western civilization and its resilience.

Western civilization has comprised of corrupt govts. that have colonized the world, subjugated the third world and some people in jihad watch want to believe that some how a tiny minority of radical muslim extremists will conquer the world and subjugate us by either political power and/or the use of force ?

If they have solid proof about muslim organizations that will become as powerful , just like the corrupt govts of western civlization, I will be on their side, but what they have given in the form of proof is really nothing compared to what corrupt govts in the western world have done to the third world which has included the annihilation of entire American native populations due to european diseases and others like Blacks and natives of third world countries were subject to slavery, second class status, massacres and/or theft of resources etc etc throughout history.

Its only during the 60s that all citizens in the US received full human rights and if we work to helping reformers in the muslim world, the entire muslim world will have full human rights about the same time as the US gave full human rights to everybody after 200 years of independence.

Meanwhile, where is the threat ?

The threat of war is more prevalent than anything else and western govts are guilty in many cases in instigating fear mongering and war for the profit agenda of the bloated, greedy, corrupt, wasteful military/industrial pork laden, corporate welfare entitlement complex that is presently looting the US treasury of over a trillion dollars or 68 cents of every hard earned tax dollar every year and as the rich and powerful in the military/industrial complex are "laughing all the way to the bank", they are supporting the re-election campaigns of their puppets in the US govt, while the average American has to eventually forgo a healthier and better standard of living as essential governmental programs like oversight, health, pollution controls, medical research etc etc are drastically cut or taxes go up dramatically in order to keep the US govt solvent.

War above all else is what actual threatens all of us and the attacks of 9/11/01 was because of war, since if the US govt never got involved in the gulf war, the US govt would never have made the undemocratic move of stationing troops in Saudi Arabia.

If the US govt was interested in democracy, the US govt would have asked the people of Saudi Arabia before stationing troops in Saudi Arabia instead of depending on the opinions of Saudi dictators who were never elected and this undemocratic move on the part of the US govt led to the attacks on 9/11.

So war above all else is what truly threatens our security as all our trillion dollar defenses were not able to stop 19 hijackers armed with box-cutters on a half million dollar budget.

The day the US govt gives up its empire and employs the foreign policy of Switzerland is the day when all Americans will be truly secure and safe, just as the Swiss are, while saving trillions of dollars which can be used to improve the health, well being and living standards of the average American while spending about fifty billion a year to co-opt all muslim leaders by putting them on the CIA payroll and using the US rendition program to go after truly dangerous criminals like the next "hitler".

Dave,

Let me know if the following is accurate :

You stated that the truth kills Islam and yet you say Islam is not dead because of lies.

So are you saying the lies are more powerful than the truth and Islam is actually not dead ?

So why is truth weaker than the lies ?

So what did you mean by the truth kills islam ?

Demsci,

Please see the movie " Born on the Fourth of July" ( 1989 ) starring Tom Cruise

Tom Cruise gives an accurate portrayal of war and after you have seen the movie, we can continue this discussion.

After you have seen the movie, please e-mail me at yourviewpoints@hotmail.com and let me know your opinion of the movie, thanks

Dave,

Do you know how long it will take for the truth to finally kill islam ?

So after 100 years, muslims convert to christianity ?

dave,

what happens after 100 years ? what becomes of the billions of muslims ? what would they believe in if islam gets killed ?

Whatever they wish.

Islam is not bad BECAUSE there is a BETTER religion (although almost any religion is) Islam is bad in and of itself.

If Islam was the ONLY religion in the world, it would be fought by good men, using the truth.

Consider just two of the central tenets of Islam that we have established from the actions of uswa hasana "The Model of Conduct". Lying when it is convenient to get your way and murder of an opponent that you disagree with.

When those concepts are absorbed by a society it has a very negative and devastating effect on the progress of that society.

This and a few other retrograde concepts of Islam, is why all Islamic societies are locked in hopeless bickering and violence both with others and within those societies themselves.

Winston Churchill called Islam "The most retrograde force known to man." I could not say it better.

Dave,

You said the truth kills Islam and yet it takes 100 years to kill Islam because the lie is keeping islam alive, right ?

So a more accurate statement should be " lies keep islam alive ", right ?

Dave,

So you are saying the lies make the truth really weak.

what specific lies make the truth very weak ?

45ch,

Real truth is never weak; it always prevails over lies eventually.

Dave,

So when a muslim commits a crime, that crime is covered up by both western and muslim govts ?

What is the motive that is being covered up by both muslim and western govts ?

Dave,

What was the world like before islam ever existed ?

Dave,

A better place ? Didn't 100% of mankind sin ? when Adam and Eve sinned ( 2 out of 2 makes 100% ) and then later on, God sent the flood because sin filled the earth.

Dave,

Have you read the bible ?

Dave,

I believe that the bible is historically correct but I do not believe that God was behind the genocidal acts of the Jews in Deut 20.

Do you believe everything you read in the Koran ?

Dave,

What about the millions of American muslims who do not kill ? are they reading the same Koran ?

Dave,

So it is possible for muslims to not take the Koran seriously ?