I'm a bit late with this, but it is still worth noting. The Islamic Feast of Eid al-Adha commemorates the end of the pilgrimage to Mecca, the Hajj, and Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his son -- Ishmael in the Muslim version.
In thinking of Abraham, most Americans think of the Biblical figure. In Genesis 22:15-18, Abraham is rewarded for his faith and told he will become a blessing to the nations: "by your descendants shall all the nations of the earth bless themselves, because you have obeyed my voice."
But the Muslim audiences that Obama addresses here do not read Genesis. They read the Koran, in which Allah says that Abraham is an "excellent example" for the believers when he tells his pagan family and people that "there has arisen, between us and you, enmity and hatred for ever, unless ye believe in Allah and Him alone" (60:4). The same verse relates that Abraham is not an excellent example when he tells his father, "I will pray for forgiveness for you."
Thus the Koran, in its picture of Abraham, the man Obama invokes as a symbol of the common elements of the three faiths, holds up hatred as exemplary, while belittling the virtue of forgiveness. Obama therefore reinforces a worldview that takes for granted the legitimacy of everlasting enmity between Muslims and non-Muslims -- and does so while attempting to build bridges between Muslims and non-Muslims.
This demonstrates once again how crucial it is for American policymakers to have a detailed understanding of Islam's theological and cultural frame of reference, and of the actual teachings of the Koran. For lack of this understanding, careless statements continue to be made, and policy errors keep multiplying.
"Obama greets Muslim pilgrims," by Foon Rhee for the Boston Globe, November 25 (thanks to all who sent this in):
President Obama continued his outreach to the world's Muslims today, sending greetings to pilgrims to Mecca.He also noted that his administration is assisting Saudi authorities in preventing the spread of swine flu.
"Michelle and I would like to send our best wishes to all those performing Hajj this year, and to Muslims in America and around the world who are celebrating Eid-ul-Adha. The rituals of Hajj and Eid-ul-Adha both serve as reminders of the shared Abrahamic roots of three of the world's major religions," Obama said in a statement.
"During Hajj, the world's largest and most diverse gathering, three million Muslims from all walks of life - including thousands of American Muslims - will stand in prayer on Mount Arafat. The following day, Muslims around the world will celebrate Eid-ul-Adha and distribute food to the less fortunate to commemorate Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his son out of obedience to God," the president added in the statement, translated on the White House website into Arabic, Persian, Dari, Urdu, Pashto, Russian, and French.
"This year, I am pleased that the Department of Health and Human Services has partnered with the Saudi Health Ministry to prevent and limit the spread of H1N1 during Hajj. Cooperating on combating H1N1 is one of the ways we are implementing my administration's commitment to partnership in areas of mutual interest.
"On behalf of the American people, we would like to extend our greetings during this Hajj season - Eid Mubarak."
yuck.
Disgusting Dhimmitude from our Mohammedan president.
Hussein - Islam is not a "religion." It's a 7th century AD mass-murder political ideology cloaked as a religion. Islam is nothing but 7th century AD Fascism/Nazism.
"Kill non-Muslims wherever you find them. Lie in wait and ambush them, seize and capture them using every stratagem of war." - Qur'an 9:5
And many more similar "Jihad" verses.
I hate Islam. It deserves to be hated, just as Fascism and Nazism deserve to be hated.
"yuck." - gymgal
Yeah, what she said.
Allah is a moongod from Mecca, Obama is wrong. Well, so what else is new..?
I examined the issue last year in Making Sense of Ramadan. What Ramadan and Eid is really about is remembering the battle of Badr, where a seemingly inferior Muslim force surprisingly defeated the 'infidels'. Remember that when invited for any festivities...
Hands down Obama has got to win the American Dhimmi of the Year Award.
The only message O has my permission to extend to Muslims on my behalf is this: Surrender or die.
"The rituals of Hajj and Eid-ul-Adha both serve as reminders of the shared Abrahamic roots of three of the world's major religions," Obama said in a statement.
Uh... Does Mr. Obama realize that he, a self proclaimed Christan, wasn't invited to participate in this wonderful Hajj party? Does he know that, unless he throws Jesus under the bus, and kisses the ass of the nearest imam, he never will get an invite?
Just askin'.
In 2001, the United States postal service released its first festive "Eid" stamp—on September 1, just days before 9/11.
http://www.usps.com/news/2001/philatelic/sr01_054.htm
Every year since, the USPS has issued a new Eid stamp—and every year since, Jihadists terrorist plotters have tried to match the horrors of 9/11.
Here's this year's stamp:
https://shop.usps.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10001&storeId=10052&productId=10006182
"Eid Mubarak", Infidels!
Islam's claim to be an 'Abrahamic' religion - that is, its claim that the YHWH of the Bible is really 'allah' - is complete and utter nonsense.
To understand how baseless is that claim, and to see just how radically different YHWH is from 'allah' the war-demon of the Arabs, I recommend Rev Dr Mark Durie's very useful little book, 'Revelation? Do We Worship the Same God? Jesus, Holy Spirit, God, in Christianity and Islam'. Although aimed at Christians, it can be profitably read by anyone, including Jews - Bat Yeor gave it a rave review.
For once one has read it, one will never be fooled again by specious Muslim dawa-artists' claims of kinship with the Biblical faiths, that is, with Judaism and Christianity. One will see, rather, that there is between Judaism and Christianity, on the one hand, and Islam, on the other, a bottomless gulf. (Franz Rosenzweig, Jewish philosopher and theologian, saw that same gulf, decades ago, and remarked upon it; he classified Islam as a species of paganism; not meaning thereby any insult to faiths such as Hinduism or Buddhism, but simply in order to indicate that it [Islam] was a faith whose theology, anthropology and cosmology were entirely alien to what is taught in the Bible; he could have added, not only alien, but *hostile*).
Dr Durie's book is brief, plainly-written, impeccably referenced, and even provides a handy couple of pages at the end where the glaring differences - indeed, the fundamental oppositions - between YHWH and 'allah', character-wise, are summarised in tabular form. 'Revelation?' should be in the back pocket of prison chaplains and high school chaplains and youth workers and priests and pastors, all over the English-speaking world; and the sooner it can be translated into other languages - particularly Spanish and French - the better.
In addition to Dr Durie's book, I commend to any Francophones here a little booklet, 'Jacques Ellul: Islam et Judeo-Christianisme: Texte Inedite' (Presses Universitaires de France, 2004), with a preface by Alain Besancon.
It comprises chiefly a long essay by Ellul, written ca 1991 and unpublished before his death, entitled "Les Trois Piliers du Conformisme" ('the three pillars of conformity') in which - like Dr Durie - he thoroughly demolishes certain 'interfaith' canards concerning Islam and the Biblical faiths: to wit, the 'Abrahamic faiths' claim; the 'monotheism' claim; and 'the religions of the book' claim.
If you can read French - get it and read it.
Did Obama have such a long message for Thanksgiving too?
(I am a non-US citizen, so I don't know)
Or are his happy greetings reserved only for the moslems?
Just like his low bows are not for the Queen; they are only for the Saudi king.
(And then to counter that criticism, he bowed to the Japanese king)
My thoughts, and a little more, about Muslim holidays:
http://freemendo.typepad.com/undaunted/2009/11/heres-a-videotelling-us-how-the-new-rules-of-engagement-notice-how-at-the-end-the-news-reader-counsels-us-thatits-best-th.html
It would seem to me that allah is loosely based on the most ancient, primitive concept the Hebrews had of their god - and got stuck there.
As I try to explain the difference to the PC/MCers, the bible, through myths, legends, and history filtered through religious lenses, tells a story of a people's journey from being neolithic tribesmen through to developing a civilized culture and society (possibly inspired from witnessing what the Sumerians and Egyptians and Babylonians had made, as much they didn't like these people or their gods and statues) with their view of their god changing and evolving to reflect their social evolution, culminating in Jesus' vision of this evolved god.
Islam is the other way around; the koran marks the fall of a proto-civilization back into Neolithic barbarism.
That's a huge difference, IMO.
Henrik - Thank you for that piece, I will read it as soon as I'm done typing this comment.
Dumbledoresarmy - Thank you for that book recommendation.
Undaunted - Thank you for your blog post. I could not believe what I was reading! I can see where it was done with good intentions as an effort to reach out, but that is not the way to do it. Having dinner with Muslim friends? Sure, I have no problem with that. But participating in their religious festivals is an abomination to what you claim to believe and preach. Strong language, but this is a serious issue. What complete ignorance. I only got as far as this sentence for now:
"There is no violation of my own faith in this"
Apparently this man is ignorant about two faiths - Islam, and the one he claims to practice.
It makes me want to weep.
What "shared Abrahamic roots"? There are none. There is a figure named "Abraham" who has a different significance in Judaism, and Christianity, and quite another in Islam, which appropriates him, as it appropriates so many figures -- Moses, Jesus -- but gives them quite a different role, and quite a different place, than do the prior-in--time monotheisms from which Islam, distorting its sources, lifted so much, to put into the mixture along with pre-Islamic pagan lore (those djinn, for example).
This business of the "three abrahamic faiths" can only be uttered, credulously, by those who do not know, and apparently have no time to find out, what Islam is, and just how it has used figures and stories lifted from those two other monotheisms. But not all of us are willing, as the President and others around him are willing, to continue to refuse to find out, in detail, what must be found out if one is to even be able to legitimately claim the right to be able to comment on Islam. All the rest is simply piety-in-the-sky in the sweet-bye-and-bye.
Islam is a heresy and distortion of Judaism and Christianity and is an eternal and mortal foe of both. Its truly Satanic nature is everywhere evident in its inversion of Judeo-Christian truths. A simple example is that Jesus loves mankind and dies for its sins. Allah says he loves those who love him and do what he says (which is ironically limits the strength of Allah's love to the level of an ordinary pompous human being). Buddhism, Hinduisim, etc. are 'religions' and respected as such. Islam is Satanism.
Obama: "The rituals of Hajj and Eid-ul-Adha both serve as reminders of the shared Abrahamic roots of three of the world's major religions"
Huh? To cite the hajj - the Muslim's obligatory pilgrimage to Mecca, which is an act of obeisance honoring Muhammed, declarer of unending war on Jews and Christians - as a reminder of any commonality between Islam, on the one hand, and Judeo-Christianity, on the other, is an immense stretch at best, and disingenuous and specious at worst. I cannot think of any connection between the hajj and the two non-Muslim religions except insofar as Muslims believe that Abraham and his primary (to them) son, Ishmael, travelled to Mecca to build the ka'aba as a shrine to Allah. What this has to do with Judaism or Christianity eludes me utterly. Have I overlooked something here? Please enlighten me, if so.
Obama reminds me sometimes of our Australian Kevin Rudd, who loves to show off his Mandarin. Obama loves to pronounce Arabic words with such stooge-like respect and correctness, with a little pretentious pause afterwards and one of those tilted-face "looks" - truly sickening. Actually, I think rudd has given up spouting Mandarin: he wasn't so good at it. But Obama uses any opportunity he can get.
I have noticed we non-Muslims say IZ-lam but Muslims say Iz-LAAM or Iss-LAAM. I refuse to pronounce it their way.
Hugh, this probably a little off-topic, but it does have to do with the weird vision of biblical characters (including Jesus) that Islam has, amongst other things.
I wonder if Islamic thought hasn't seeped into some of the more unpleasant brands of christianity, and that's what makes those brands so unpleasant?
Witness the Left Behind series. While I haven't read it - and I'm certainly not going to buy them; I know who Tim laHaye is, and that idiot is getting none of my money - I was reviewing the plot structure a couple of days ago to see if it might be worth downloading and reading just for curiosity (I saw the movie, thought it was boring.)
Anyway, the crux of it is how the returning christ is portrayed. One oft-quoted passage (I first saw it years ago, not long after the book that contains it came out) that shows Jesus literally causing the skin to melt off the faces of men and horses alike.
That kind of made me sick (and I'm a fan of all kinds of supernatural horror, even if it twists things about a bit). Sure sounds nothing like the Jesus I ever heard of, frankly. I mean, OK, if those soldiers were really evil, horrible people, maybe. But the horses?
What kind of weird vision does LaHaye and co have anyway? (beyond his career as a "scientific creationist", at least).
It sounds like the Muslim version of Jesus who threatens to come back and kill us all!
Obama reminds me sometimes of our Australian Kevin Rudd, who loves to show off his Mandarin. Obama loves to pronounce Arabic words with such stooge-like respect and correctness, with a little pretentious pause afterwards and one of those tilted-face "looks" - truly sickening. Actually, I think rudd has given up spouting Mandarin: he wasn't so good at it. But Obama uses any opportunity he can get.
I have noticed we non-Muslims say IZ-lam but Muslims say Iz-LAAM or Iss-LAAM. I refuse to pronounce it their way.
What does Pierre Ryckmans (Simon Leys), former teacher of Kevin Rudd, have to say about his former pupil's linguistic and other gifts? Youth wants to know.
Although I agree with the sentiments expressed above, I don't think we can blame this on Obama. President Bush and President Clinton before him would have said the same things. The misunderstanding of the tenets of Islam expressed by our leaders is not linked to any one administration or party.
"This year, I am pleased that the Department of Health and Human Services has partnered with the Saudi Health Ministry to prevent and limit the spread of H1N1 during Hajj.
What's that you say? Kufrs saving Mahoundians at hajj? And how did they manage to prevent the spread of the 'swine' flu at hajj? Did they send vaccine...Provide tissues? Is the Dept of Health and Human Services funded by US taxpayers money? What are they doing 'partnering' with Saudi's...At the Kaaba of all places...?
No, Obama is well intended, but he doesn't understand these subtleties. Unfortunately, ignorance in these matters does not lead to bliss.
"On behalf of the American people, we would like to extend our greetings during this Hajj season - Eid Mubarak."
I hate it when politicians presume to speak for me. I'm an American, and I ain't sending any greetings to hajjers...
Doe's Rasulullahhaha Obama really think Allah and his minions
want his 'greetings', or that of the kufr people who inhabit the great Satan, called 'Dar al-harb America'? Rasool needs to retire early...
I hate this "Abrahamic" religion crap.
There's nothing particularly "Abrahamic" about Judaism. Abraham was a character in the narrative, even a dramatically prominent one, he having been the Ur-Jew so to speak ;-) but not particularly important one in terms of doctrine or culture. For example, he pales to insignificance beside Moses.
It would be far more meaningful to describe Judaism as a Mosaic doctrine.
Christianity is, if anything, even less "Abrahamic" than Judaism. And it is also, as it must be, firmly rooted in Mosaic ethics.
This "Abrahamic" religion garbage is nothing but a disgusting expression of envy in the most pathological sense. It is a claim on prestige -- nothing more, nothing less.
Whether or not mohammedanism is "Abrahamic", it is certainly NOT Mosaic.
Mohammedanism does not uphold Mosaic law. Neither does it recognize Mosaic ethical universalism, quite the contrary, it's a policy of different strokes for different folks. If anything mohammedanism is anti-Mosaic.
All that said, I'm pretty convinced that the mohammedan claim of being "Abrahamic" does not refer to anything doctrinal in any case. I believe it is a tribal claim -- the claim that Abraham was in some way a progenitor of their tribe.
This would be far more consonant with mohammedan tribalist ethics and outlook.
The whole business is very disgusting.
Dear Wellington, couldn't agree more. Obama even beats Jimmy, the dhimmi, Carter and that's pretty hard to achieve. I'd give him 10 points out of 10 in dhimmitude, excellent performance! He really sucks up to Mohammedans, and as Hugh pointed out rightly, he's got no idea about the discrepancies between the Bible and the Koran. Islam can't be an Abrahamitic religion, as the story of Abraham and the supposed sacrifice of his son Isaac is completely distorted in the Koran. And btw Abraham being the first Jew never built the Ka'aba, a pagan site. Jews don't worship stones, the home of the moon god Allah. When we're watching the rituals of the Hajj, and we've got ample opportunities to do so, on CNN for instance, we can see clearly that Islam is pagan and barbaric, the stoning of the devil is so disgusting and lots of people are killed in the course of this ritual. I agree with all the other co-posters. Yuck!
Joe -
Techincally, everyone's Abrahamic, because if you want to take the story literally, well, he was the father of the people who were the ancestors of all the different peoples the Hebrews at the time knew about, if the mohammadeans want to get that tribal about it.
As for them using Abraham and other OT characters, well, Mo seemed quite jealous of the Jews, and wished to expropriate their stories, to fuse it with his rock-worship and give it legitimacy it otherwise wouldn't have had, and to claim superiority over the Jewish version of their own religion.
And that pattern has continued ever since - Muslims seem to LOVE trying to appropriate other people's things - their ideas, their lands, their property, etc. They're worse than Chekhov from Star Trek, with his running joke about Russian firsts. At least the Russians DID have some impressive scientific firsts! Muslims aren't even amusing when they claim this stuff; and at least Chekhov was likable and kind of cute in his way, personality-wise. Can't say the same thing for any Islamist asshat.
Eid is a reminder alright -- a reminder of Mohammed's move to usurp the Abrahamic story and the promise claimed by the Jews.
Given the number of Jews with whom he interacted it would be hard to believe Mo was unfamiliar with the story of Abraham's near-sacrifice of his son, Isaac. This story is central to the Jewish canon.
It is also embraced, intact, in the Christian canon. That we place a different significance on the story, particularly the line "God will himself provide a sacrifice" is quite true. Even so, we respect the integrity of the story and do not nullify the traditional Jewish meaning, which pertains to the special calling and promise endowed upon the nation of Israelites (note: Isaac is the father of Jacob = "Israel"; the point of his identity in the story is hard to misinterpret!).
In the Islamic version, Isaac is scrubbed as a principal character and the son nearly sacrificed is Ishmael, Abraham's out-of-wedlock son, who is understood in both the Jewish and Arabic lexicon as a progenitor of the Arab race.
The meaning of the transposition of sons in the Islamic story could not be clearer: Israel/Isaac is stripped of significance. Ishmael becomes the "child of the promise", the dearest treasure of Abraham, almost lost but miraculously preserved to eventually carry the promise Allah.
I regard Eid, which is little more than the celebration of the Islamic version of this story, to be an act of cultural imperialism, even (in the loose language of soft-tipped "Liberalism" in today's world) an attempt at "cultural genocide". It is overtly antisemetic by any measure.
I don't think Obama did this in bad faith. But it reveals a massive ignorance of the true significance of this event. Or maybe he does know, and secretly wishes to participate in this act of cultural confiscation.
Epistemology -
/smart-ass mode ON
Want to stone the Devil?
Give him a joint. Then maybe he'll go home, because he forgot what he was there for in the first place.
The question of the legitimacy of Islam or Christianity for that matter as a religion was an issue that Maimonides considered important to address. He felt that although both were very different from Judaism they both were important to human development and the propagation and acceptance of monotheism. To quote "All those words of Jesus of Nazareth and of this Ishmaelite [i.e., Muhammad] who arose after him are only to make straight the path for the messianic king and to prepare the whole world to serve the Lord together. As it is said: 'For then I will change the speech of the peoples to a pure speech so that all of them shall call on the name of the Lord and serve him with one accord' (Zephaniah 3:9)."
In addition the proper observance of Islam does not deviate from the 7 Noachide laws which are;
1.Do not murder.
2.Do not steal.
3.Do not worship false gods.
4.Do not be sexually immoral.
5.Do not eat a limb removed from a live animal.
6.Do not curse God.
7.Set up courts and bring offenders to justice.
Unfortunately what we see in the behaviour of some Muslims doesn't seem to confirm this but he believed that Islam in its most basic form does not contradict these seven universal laws and of course it can't be argued that they are very serious about their monothestic belief (even if it's misplaced).
You make a good point, Observer. There are many here at JW and elsewhere who maintain that the Mohammedan deity is not the same as the Judeo-Christian one. I myself am skeptical of this assessment, even though I respect it and think it has some merit. Rather, I would aver that the monotheistic deity of Judaism, Christianity and Islam are one and the same but that the Islamic interpretation of this deity is a warped one, emphasizing brute power above and beyond the might and majesty of the deity of the Old Testament and largely ignoring the true love and mercy of the deity of the New Testament.
Instead, the Muslim assessemnt of a monotheistic deity is rooted in obedience to a higher power to such an extent that it becomes a kind of spiritual slavery. Any kind of love that follows after this pathetic obeisance is a love that rational and dignified persons should reject and is, in effect, a bastard love, which is to say no real love at all. In short, the Muslims might have the right god with an extremely twisted interpretaion of this ultimate reality.
I would note in closing that Maimonides was too kind to Muslims, thinking as he did that Islam incorporates all seven of the "Noachide laws" you mentioned. Well, if Islam does so, I find it highly interesting and deeply ironic that the founder of Islam, Mohammed, violated many of these seven laws, most especially the ones requiring that one should not murder (e.g., 600 some men of the Banu Qurayza tribe with their heads lopped off in one day) or engage in sexual immorality (e.g., having sexual intercourse with a nine-year old girl, Aisha by name). In any case, whether the Muslims have the right god or not, what is certain is that they adhere to a religion which is a burden to all the world and if their interpretation of a monotheistic deity is the correct one, then this is a very creepy universe and God is a malevolent phenomenon.
Wellington, you are correct. Mohammed was an indefensible rogue and charlatan. The record indicates that he was a murderer, liar and master manipulator amongst other despicable things. However what I find interesting is that the faith he created (if we're to believe the narrative) which was basically made up of poorly understood facets of Judaism and Christianity still contained the kernel of those two faiths. This means that because of this within Islam are contained rules which can influence the believer to lead a basically good life. I think that this could probably be considered a minor miracle.
Do I think that the world would be better off without it? Yes, absolutely. Unfortunately it's here and there's not much we can do about it. Perhaps in the future, if we're to believe Zephaniah, the Muslims of the world will finally turn their back on this faith.
Observer - there is less common moral ground as you seem to have so diligently unearthed: in islam the commandments are only said to apply to co-religionists..It means that you can kill, rape, robb, enslave and slander as many infidels as you wish..
It really is no accident if muslim practice contradicts the noachide laws; it is a built in abomination
Islam is a heathen cult - not a respectable religion
The Abrahamic connection of the three monothisims is a bit frayed when it comes to Christianity. I've read that Christianity is to a very great extent a mystery religion having more to do with Greek and Persian philosophies.
Another key feature of Christianity is the Holy Trinity. Only one member of this trinity,Jesus, is a decendent of Abraham and only on his mother's side.
"Observer - there is less common moral ground as you seem to have so diligently unearthed: in islam the commandments are only said to apply to co-religionists..It means that you can kill, rape, robb, enslave and slander as many infidels as you wish.."
Exactly.
While the religious culture of Israel, and of its later furcations in Judaism and Christianity, had elements of tribalism and misoxeny, Islamic culture has cultivated tribalism and misoxeny to a degree and intensity and sophistication unparalleled among all other cultures all of history. More importantly, Islam is wired by its founding blueprint (the Koran and the Sunnah as well as the latter's equivalent in Shia Islam) to maintain tribalism and misoxeny for all history -- indeed, for all eternity; whereas the four pillars of Western civilization -- Graeco-Roman / Judaeo-Christian -- contained the seeds for its ongoing progressive evolution by which it continues to transcend tribalism and misoxeny in favor of universalism.
You're quite right about the cannibalistic aspect of their culture.
Hesperado, is "misoxeny" stronger/broader than "xenophobia"?
Susanp, it seems to me the "phobia" part of xenophobia kind of limits it to an "irrational fear of", whereas Muslims go beyond that and positively hate outsiders (the "miso-" is from the Greek word for "hate").
Concerned - "I've read that Christianity is to a very great extent a mystery religion having more to do with Greek and Persian philosophies."
Sorry, but that's wrong.
You need to think about something - why, if Christianity was just one more pagan mystery cult, nothing special, containing *nothing* new or different, did pagan philosophers, authorities and priests in every corner of the Greco-Roman world (and beyond it, once it reached places like Persia) reject it and revile it with such vehemence and repugnance? Christians - like Jews, I should add - were even called..atheists. Augustine -after having been a Platonist and a Manichee - was jolted and indeed initially put off by his first reading of the Christian scriptures; they were so radically different from all his previous reading, so down-to-earth, so *un*philosophical.
I commend to you, in order to clear your mind, one of the most intellectually rigorous orthodox Christians writing today, namely, David Bentley Hart. Read any one, or all, of his three books - "The Beauty of the Infinite" (in particular, you should read, from part 1, 'Dionysus Against the Crucified', sections 3 and 4, 'The Will to Power: the Covenant of Light', and then from part 2, section 3, 'salvation', the subsection entitled 'The Consolations of Tragedy, the Terrors of Easter'); "Atheist Delusions: The Christian Revolution and Its Fashionable Enemies"; and "The Doors of the Sea". Hart's books - his account of Christian theology, anthropology and cosmology - make perfect sense in conjunction with Thomas Cahill's popular but still informative "The Gifts of the Jews".
Then find Franz Rosenzweig, "The Star of Redemption", in which a Jewish writer identifies Christianity as being fundamentally kin to Judaism, and requiring to be classified with it, over against all other known belief systems; that is, he identifies Christianity, in its view of humanity, cosmos and the relationship between humanity and god, and the nature of divine revelation, as being closer to Judaism than it is to *anything* else.
A couple of other authors worth reading - Jacques Ellul, "The Humiliation of the Word" and Gerald Bray, "Creeds, Councils and Christ" (whose opening chapters, thoroughly researched, make mincemeat of the most common popular atheist myths that are now peddled about the Creed of Nicaea, the date and construction of the Christian canon, etc).
Anyway: this is what Hart, in one of his footnotes, no. 19 at the bottom of page 22 of 'Beauty of the Infinite', says about Bultmann, one of the most enthusiastic 'demythologisers' (or perhaps one should say, 'mythologisers'?) of the Gospels - "Bultmann reproduces the error of Harnack and others by suggesting that the story of the incarnation obeys the dramatic morphology of certain pre-existing gnostic saviour myths; this is, however, at best extremely speculative: not only is there no evidence of such myths in existence prior to Christianity, the only gnostic systems in which such myths do appear (and they are fewer than one might imagine) are those that have been demonstrably influenced by Christian thought".
Hart knows his onions; he's *read* the surviving gnostic texts and he certainly gives the impression of being quite familiar with the pagan thought-world of the Levant at the time of Christ. When, then, he says (and he does, in 'Atheist Delusions') that Christianity was, when viewed from the perspective of a pagan inhabitant of that world, 'like lightning from a clear sky' - and that everything that makes it thus, bespeaks its continuity with its JEWISH matrix ('it is from Israel that Christianity learns the grammar of charity, its passionate commitment to Creation and its revulsion at injustice, rather than resignation before the magnitude of evil' - Beauty of the Infinite, p.387 ) - then I believe him.
Hesperado and Paardestaart I can't argue with you on these points. Please believe me, in no way and I trying to defend Islam in any way. The only point I was trying to make was that although Islam in itself is a horrid belief system which encourages bad behaviour towards non-believers (as well as Muslims of opposing sects) the fact that Islam has introduced a very large segment of the earth's population to the notion of a single Creator is significant.
As well I think that we all agree here that through strict interpretation of Islam it's followers find the permission to behave as they do the majority of Muslims are just as happy to follow it's most basic tenets and not contribute to the world Jihad taking place.
I've been lurking on this site for several years now and have learned quite a lot. This in addition to watching and being aware of the global Jihad underway has made me more than aware of the true nature of Islam. Although before this I was aware of it and found it a false and quite frankly silly belief system I am not naive to it's dangers. But I still believe that the majority of Muslims don't hold such religious views (as so many in other religions) and don't want to participate in their co-religionists violent activities.
dumbledoresarmy,
On the other hand, Christianity would never have converted the Roman Empire had it been alien to Graeco-Roman culture. The theologian Hugo Rahner (elder brother to the more famous theologian Karl Rahner) wrote a masterful work demonstrating with a wealth of references how Christianity grew like a plant from the soil of the ancient Greek and Roman world and by extension from deeper, darker sources from which the latter themselves grew, even as its ultimate source transcended that soil.
Parts of this work, Greek myths and Christian mysteries is available for free from Google:
http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=N8XAF-JE6PAC&dq=%22hugo+rahner%22&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=Ik-opEAERJ&sig=CnxIkZJDXzqh0LZoajpLadHUu-Q#v=onepage&q=&f=false
The two Rahners may be very, very erudite, and very 'authoritative', but I still see what I see, and what I see is this
Without the Jews (or, more broadly, the Hebrews), Christianity would never have come into existence.
Jerusalem redeems Athens and Rome; not the other way around.
The Apollo-Dionysus polarity, for example, does not and cannot *include* or *account for* much less *produce* the Christian (and more broadly, Biblical) understanding of the world; indeed, it is flatly incompatible with it, and fundamentally hostile toward it.
Nietzsche understood that. He is one of the few modern thinkers who did.
And read Auerbach, Mimesis.
I see all attempts (no matter how earnest and erudite or well-meaning) to 'dissolve' Christianity, or for that matter, Judaism, into some more 'general' philosophical system, or to derive them from some more 'original' source (which, of course, usually turns out to be indistinguishable from and continuous with the pagan systems which both believing Jews and believing Christians consistently, historically, criticised and rejected) ; to obliterate their distinctives; as dangerous. It's the modern way to 'tame' YHWH (or, if done by Christians, an attempt to try to win the approval of outsiders); to nullify the standing challenge He represents to The Way of the World.
You mention the two Rahners.
Ever heard of Hans Urs Von Balthasar?