While the world waxes indignant over the Swiss minaret ban, it is useful to put things into perspective. In Egypt, Christians are persecuted. In Pakistan, construction of new churches is severely restricted. In Saudi Arabia, it isn't allowed at all. So why is a ban on minarets -- not on mosques -- so much more terrible than that?
"Will Saudi Arabia allow construction of Cathedrals to challenge Swiss ban on minarets?," by Nazir Bhatti for the Pakistan Christian Post, December 1 (thanks to Andreas) -- reproduced as printed:
Karachi: November 30, 2009. (PCP) Dr. Nazir S Bhatti, President of Pakistan Christian Congress PCC expressed surprise on statement of Pakistani representatives in UNHRC expressing concern on Swiss vote ban on construction of minarets on mosques and other Islamic institutions in Switzerland when construction of new Churches in Pakistan has to follow strict government guidelines which prohibits one furlong from existing mosque and use of loudspeakers.Nazir Bhatti said " Christ The King processions and other open rituals have been banned in public places from decades but not any Muslim human right activists have raised voice against government actions to damage true spirit of religious freedom in Pakistan but their protests in name of human right against Swiss government vote to ban minarets is index of substandard"
In a statement released by PCC Central office here today also urged Saudi Arabia to allow construction of Churches in kingdom to challenge Swiss ban on minarets.
"The Human Right activists around world shall raise voice to press upon Saudi Arabia and other Islamic countries in Middle East to permit construction of Cathedrals and ensure religious freedom for Christian minorities" added Nazir S Bhatti...
Let's not be fooled by anything Muslims may promise us. We must find a way to support the Swiss or we will all be dead or dhimmis.
Pakistani volunteers slaughter animals at a local religious school on the occasion of Eid al-Adha in Lahore, Pakistan, Saturday, Nov. 28, 2009. The Eid al-Adha, or the Feast of the Sacrifice, is celebrated to commemorate the prophet Ibrahim's faith in being willing to sacrifice his son.
(AP Photo/K.M. Chaudary)
http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/Most-Viewed-Photos/ss/1778;_ylt=Aqxw83EtAMlRZwgvx2jDBmAXO7gF#photoViewer=/091128/481/b6789ba1927d40cf8da4cdd832403ca4
The Islamic world is one giant hypocrite. It demands complete freedom for Islam in the West but denies it entirely or considerably to Christianity in one Muslim country after another. Until churches rise in Saudi Arabia, ALL protestations by Muslims about how poor, dear, wonderful Islam is treated in the West will ring hollow. Sick of this shit.
Yeah, and this is the kind of garbage we really don't need over here.
Banning new minarets was only a very small step in fighting against this sort of thing.
As for Saudi Arabia allowing churches in to show us they're fair minded good guys, forget it.
Robert:- While the world waxes indignant over the Swiss minaret ban, it is useful to put things into perspective. In Egypt, Christians are persecuted. In Pakistan, construction of new churches is severely restricted. In Saudi Arabia, it isn't allowed at all (end)
Firstly, it is unfair to compare these Muslim countries to Europe as their history is complicated by colonialism, poverty, American invasion (as with Pakistan) and support of unpopular dictators (in Egypt, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia).
Secondly, a proper comparison will reveal otherwise. In Italy, the Archbishop of Bologna has called for the closure of the country’s mosques and an end to immigration by Muslims, who are, he believes, ‘outside our humanity.’ In [Kamchatka], at the furthest end of European settlement, the Orthodox bishop has backed opposition to the construction of a mosque for the region’s large Muslim community. The mosque would be ‘a direct insult to the religious and civil feelings of the Slavic population,’ according its local opponents, and would encourage further Muslim immigration, with the result that ‘given their mind-set, they won’t let us live normally here.’ Other examples: Berlusconi's allies demand ban on building new mosques (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1056625/Berlusconis-allies-demand-ban-building-new-mosques-fearing-advent-Eurabia.html), Church of England leader seeks to ban building mosques (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-553014/Church-leader-calls-building-mosques-banned-risk-Britain-Islamic-state.html). While Europe is moving in this direction, Saudi Arabia is hoping to accomodate its Christian citizens and lift the ban on building churches (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/mar/18/religion.saudiarabia).
Who are persecuted more in recent decades: the Christians of the Middle East, particularly Egypt, or the Muslims of Europe? There is certainly civil unrest in Egypt and elsewhere, but never has there been a systematic givernment sponsored attack, as the Bosnian Muslims suffered in 1992-95 when a million Bosnians were expelled from their homes and hundreds of thousands of them killed, and all under a religious premise with a narrative created not unlike that of Spencer's. Michael Sells wrote "The violence in Bosnia was a religious genocide in several senses: the people destroyed were chosen on the basis of their religious identity; those carrying out the killings acted with the blessing and support of Christian church leaders; the violence was grounded in a religious mythology that characterized the targeted people as race traitors and the extermination of them as a sacred act; and the perpetrators of the violence were protected by a policy designed by the policy makers of a Western world that is culturally dominated by Christianity". For a useful analysis on rightwing Islamophobia in Europe, see: http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/ahm/right.htm
In Britain, an innocent Muslim, Muhammad Abdul Kahar was shot three years ago and an intense smear campaign was used against him thereafter. Many Muslims throughout the world are arrested on false charges, only later shown to be false. Muslim graveyards have been attacked - just recently in Manchester. Just this year a woman in Germany, Marwa Sherbini, was killed in a court because of anti-Muslim hatred. The Danish newspaper that printed those cartoons of Muhammad refused to print cartoons disparaging Jesus and depicting holocaust denial - this is a systematic demonisation and persecution of Muslims within the mainstream.
As Robert says, we should put things in proper perspective. And when this perspective is given, Europe has much more to account for.
I have never felt that Muslims should be allowed to build their own places of worship in the West until they allow other religions including Jews, to build their own places of worship in Muslim countries.
It is no great wonder why Saudi Arabia and any number of Islamic countries outright ban or severely limit the adherents of other faiths to practice their religions freely and with the same rights afforded the believers of Islam. It is damn hard to reason with a people who actually believe that such vile words as the following could possibly be the words of a sane god.
Quran, 9:30 The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!
Quran, 98:6 Surely those who disbelieve from among the followers of the Book (Jews and Christians) and the polytheists shall be in the fire of hell, abiding therein; they are the worst of men.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Such are the words of the supposed merciful and compassionate god as relayed to the supposed messenger of god. What a crock. Muhammad was nothing more than a criminally insane, depraved little pedophilic sex freak who personally ordered the massacre and assassinations of thousands of people during his deranged existence as the founder and leader of the cult of Islam.
How any educated, sell proclaimed “Muslim” could respect or claim to be a proud follower of this degenerate mad man in the year 2000and 9 is absurd. Just look at the well documented behavior of this little psychopath bellow. Behavior documented by his “beloved followers” mind you -- who would never dare attempt to tarnish the reputation of their precious “messenger”. LOL!!! That little piece of garbage is to date the lowest, most deceitful human being, to have ever de-faced the planet with his miserable existence.
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 220:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand." Abu Huraira added: Allah's Apostle has left the world and now you, people, are bringing out those treasures (i.e. the Prophet did not benefit by them).
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 41:
Narrated Abdullah bin Masud:
I asked Allah's Apostle, "O Allah's Apostle! What is the best deed?" He replied, "To offer the prayers at their early stated fixed times." I asked, "What is next in goodness?" He replied, "To be good and dutiful to your parents." I further asked, what is next in goodness?" He replied, "To participate in Jihad in Allah's Cause." I did not ask Allah's Apostle anymore and if I had asked him more, he would have told me more.
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 44:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
A man came to Allah's Apostle and said, "Instruct me as to such a deed as equals Jihad (in reward)." He replied, "I do not find such a deed." Then he added, "Can you, while the Muslim fighter is in the battle-field, enter your mosque to perform prayers without cease and fast and never break your fast?" The man said, "But who can do that?" Abu- Huraira added, "The Mujahid (i.e. Muslim fighter) is rewarded even for the footsteps of his horse while it wanders bout (for grazing) tied in a long rope."
Sahih Bukhari, Volume. 9, Book 84, Number. 57:
Narrated Ikrima:
Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn Abbas who said, “If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah’s Apostle forbade it, saying, ‘Do not punish anybody with Allah’s punishment (fire)’. I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah’s Apostle, ‘Whoever changes his Islamic religion, then kill him.’”
Will Saudis allow construction of cathedrals to challenge Swiss ban on minarets? - of course not. They very idea is ludicrous. Islam is flatland. Its inhabitants having neither the senses nor imagination nor courage to see the world otherwise AND we should stop expecting them too.
I think we see here the self-serving selectivity of historical memories at work.
"...it is unfair to compare these Muslim countries to Europe as their history is complicated by colonialism, poverty, American invasion (as with Pakistan) and support of unpopular dictators (in Egypt, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia)." -- musammmil
It appears muzammmil is selecting his time frame of reference to be when the Europeans had finally succeeded in halting the Islamic invasion of Europe, somewhere starting about mid Seventeenth Century or thereabouts. Prior to that time, of course, the entire Islamic Empire had been gained by the conquering and subjugation of Christian (and, earlier, Zoroastrian) lands in the West and Hindu and Buddhist lands in the East. The view he expresses can only make sense to someone whose historical memory only starts with Mohammad, and everything that happened before is either not worthy of consideration or is considered to be only a sort of precursor to the glorious arrival of Mohammad. It's the view of one of history's losers, where the only thing they have left is to wallow in their victimhood and whine about the unfairness of their being denied their beliefs that they are the rightful rulers of the world. .
"The violence in Bosnia was a religious genocide in several senses: the people destroyed were chosen on the basis of their religious identity; those carrying out the killings acted with the blessing and support of Christian church leaders; the violence was grounded in a religious mythology that characterized the targeted people as race traitors and the extermination of them as a sacred act; and the perpetrators of the violence were protected by a policy designed by the policy makers of a Western world that is culturally dominated by Christianity". -- muzammmil
I got quite a ways into this before I realized it wasn't a story about Ottoman Turks slaughtering Armenians. Substitute "Van" for "Bosnia" and "Muslim leaders" for "Christian church leaders" and "Islam" for "Christianity" and the description very aptly fits the Armenian genocide.
Muzammmil is typical of the defenders of the faith, in that he fails to understand the concept of reciprocity. Indeed, wherever Islam is dominant true reciprocity does not exist, as the Swiss, who have the admirable characteristic of believing their own eyes instead of the spin they read in the PC MC MSM, correctly perceive. They understand perfectly well that a minaret is not simply a cultural variant of a church tower. If it were, there would be no problem. Instead, in light of European history where "The Turks! The Turks!" was universally understood to be the alarm for the approach of Muslim invaders, the Swiss decided they want to careful about letting this camel's nose under the tent again. So they acted. Bravo for them.
Robert:
Exactly. The Pakistani Christians are very perceptive at exposing the theatrical indignity over the mineret ban. Let the Moslems show their opposittion by revoking permanently Omar's pact and leave the Christians to build (or rebuild) their churches as well as allowing the other religious minorities like the Bah'ia to worship in peace.
Until then, let the Moslems shut up in humility.
xavier
Dr. Mengele served many purposes at Auschwitz,
he made selections of the newly arriving prisoners,
those who could work to the right,
and those who couldn't to the left (gas chambers),
and he performed "scientific medical" experiments.
The road sing to Mecca shows "Muslims - straight ahead Non Muslims - to the Right"!
So far - So Good you might say, right? ( If you work = You are liberated! )...
But, if you are a Non Muslim, ( Just a monkey... ), who took the right turn by mistake,there is a 'surprise road sign' for you ahead ... "Jews - turn left!".
http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/7893/waytomecca13hm.jpg
Now, go and construct a cathedral in Mecca !...
( If you are suffering from terminal illness and unbearable pain, try to built a synagogue ! ... ).