Eurabia Alert. Missing as usual is any discussion of the ideological basis for this proliferation of "misunderstanders" of Islam. Present as usual is the hope that the tide may be turned, if we could just find some "moderates" to engage the "misunderstanders." "Germany home to 90 combat Islamists: report," from The Local, November 28:
There are about 90 combat-trained Islamists in Germany moving among underground networks, Focus magazine reported Saturday, as intelligence agencies and police prepare to overhaul the country's anti-terrorism approach.
Some 30 of them have actual fighting experience through clashes with US or Pakistani soldiers, the magazine reported, citing German security sources.
In total, 185 Islamists trained in terrorist camps in central Asia had lived or worked in Germany in the past 10 years, the sources said.
New, young radicals were no longer recruited only through mosques, but also in universities, prisons and sports clubs, the report said.
The security sources wanted Germany to take a stronger stance in the future towards deradicalising young Islamists.
According to a separate report in magazine Der Spiegel, the Joint Terrorism Defence Centre (GTAZ) - a co-operation between various German police and intelligence agencies - will hold a forum in December to overhaul the country's anti-terrorism strategy and come up with fresh approaches.
The efforts would be aimed at native German converts to Islam, as much as radicals with immigrant backgrounds.
Until now, anti-radicalisation measures had been piecemeal across Germany's states, ranging from educational comic books to one-on-one conversations with violence-prone Islamists, the Spiegel report said.
The forum, organised by the Interior Ministry, would also study Jihadists who had already been convicted and imprisoned, as they posed their own danger in jail, where they could radicalise other prisoners.
To fight this problem, moderate Imams and Islamic organisations could be brought into counter the influence of radicals in jails, the Spiegel report said.
Just as soon as a meaningful definition of "moderate" is agreed upon.
There are really only two types of Muslims..."active" and "inactive"....and it doesn't take much to activate the "inactive" ones...
the Joint Terrorism Defence Centre (GTAZ)...will hold a forum in December to overhaul the country's anti-terrorism strategy and come up with fresh approaches.Pointless busy work until the next attack. Any "fresh" approaches will simply be the same PCMC garbage rehashed. Come on!!! An educational comic book!!! I want to weep out loud!!! What was it called? The Adventures of DhimmiMan? What a sad state the once proud German people have fallen into. Even the Italians seem to have more spine these days.
OT but just coming in on the newswires:....an IED had just derailed a train in Russia killing at least 26....and the Russians are calling it a terrorist attack....and like the attack in Ft Hood...it was....It will be interesting to watch how the Russians handle their ever increasing terror related incidents...
To fight this problem, moderate Imams and Islamic organisations could be brought into counter the influence of radicals in jails,
Yeah...I'm all for those 'moderates' 'splaining' to those 'radicals' where they are going wrong. Once they get those 'moderate Imams' into the jail, lock the door behind them and lose the key...
I was out yesterday and saw a man wearing a shirt with an image of a tricked out M-4 with the caption: "Jihadist Stopper"... or some such.
It was almost comical except that it was so sad. Chubby dads wearing too-tight shirts representing weapons they probably don't have get us nothing in this war. If he'd been wearing something over his t-shirt and I could see he was printing some sort of concealed hand-gun, it would have been different.
But it was just some guy with a shirt.
A moderate Muslim would be a Christian convert.
Well, at least it's a start. At least there is not a dhimmified man.
Was Muhammad a moderate?
In the most canonical hadith collection, Muhammad said, "Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him."
If Muhammad was not a moderate, then what are moderate Imams? Apostates? And will apostate Imams have any significant influence on fanatical Muslims who follow the fanatical founder, Muhammad?
Maybe. But I suspect the most effective, pragmatic path to reform -- is the one taken by various Christian ministries who seek to "bring Muslims to Christ." They have the advantage of love in their arsenal of reform. It seems many Muslims have been converted and continue to be converted. One interesting site is www.answeringmuslims.com.
Here ya go. Good luck.
http://www.originalprop.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/i-am-legend-hero-m4.jpg
The 'good cop, bad cop' paradigm at work again: Empower moderate Muslims to dis empower radical Muslims...and in the end, Islam is strengthened and empowered.
Personally I would like a concise definition as to what a "Moderate Muslim" is. Is this a dead muslim, a seriously ill muslim, an imprisoned muslim, an incapacitated muslim, a muslim who has embraced modernity (whatever that means), a muslim who watches East Enders Drinks Alcohol has Kuffar girlfriends, goes to college or university, has never experienced poverty but suddenly decides to kill every bloody kuffar he can because he believes all his kind are being persecuted by the likes of us filthy Kuffars. Is the latter a "moderate muslim". Because it describes all the 7/7 bombers and with some exceptions to this narrative the 9/11 Jihadists. Can we afford to trust ANY of them ? Can someone please give me a definition of a moderate muslim. This is a serious request. No defamation, just identify the characteristics that make up this Unicorn.
ATB Ericthekuffar
To paraphrase Gen. Sheridan: "the only moderate Moslems I ever saw were dead ones." And they were killed off by the non-moderate ones.
Just as soon as a meaningful definition of "moderate" is agreed upon.
All religions, worldviews, philosophies or propositions in general have some kind of logical outworking when applied to everyday life. A moderate Muslim would have to be a marginal or social muslim for whom islam constitutes "flying the colors" of his home culture, but for whom the epistemology of the koran means little. There are many of them.
The problem is that "serious" muslims eventually show up and call them to "real" islam, with all its obvious implications. Bottom line: The logical outworking of the koran is Mohamed Atta, not Mother Theresa.
It might be helpful to like Islam to malaria; in both the victim goes through active and latent phases. Malaria victims never are cured, but their disease may remain latent for long periods. Malaria victims are not allowed to donate blood; it would transfer the disease to the recipient. In the same manner, a wise policy would be to prohibit Moslem immigration, to prevent their condition from entering the national "bloodstream".
Good question. I don't think there is an answer since they've only ever been seen in the imaginations of our media and political elites. As such you can ascribe whatever fanciful characteristics one might wish for them to have.
Bottom line, as you allude to, it's a fruitless search for a unicorn. Even so, everyone with even a basic grasp of islam knows full well that where such a beast to exist it would have no influence in the islamic world. It would have to form counter arguments that have no authoritative basis in islam and would likely have it's head chopped off for its trouble. No longer mythical but extinct.
Undaunted,
All due respect to your combat skills and your (greatly appreciated) pugnacious attitude,
you are missing the best opportunity we have to fight Islam. That first and most important job, is educating our fellow Kuffar.
I still know how to set an ambush or run a patrol and I’m a fair shot with rifle or pistol. I got a safe WAY overpopulated with firearms and I have the equipment to reload ammunition for most of them. With a little help from my neighbors, I could set up a proper defensive perimeter with designated fields of fire, trip wire warning devices and an improvised mine field – complete with improvised mines. But the chances of my ever having to seriously use this knowledge are about a thousand to one. Besides that, I aint 35 anymore!
What I CAN do is educate my fellow Infidels, IN DETAIL about who Muhammad was, what he did and why Islam is a threat to every value we hold dear.
It’s a sure bet that your chubby dad, with the M4 on his chest, is not some idiot with PC mush for brains. He is wearing a big sign that says, “I AM READY TO LEARN ABOUT OUR ENEMY” – for those of us who know, it is our duty to inform him.
So engage the man in conversation and try to educate him as best you can, in the short time you have with him. Try to impress on him the deception that is built into Islam and that to Muslims, Muhammad is uswa hasana “The Model of Conduct” and al insan al kamil “The Perfect Man” – then describe some of the murders, rapes and thefts that Muhammad committed.
I have written 2 leaflets for use after such a conversation. One is a biography of Muhammad that describes his life and some of the crimes he committed, all taken from the Qur’an, the hadith of Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim and from the “Sirat Rasul Allah”. The other leaflet contains 19 selected verses from the Qur’an dealing with commands by Allah to kill the Infidel, beat your wife, make no Infidel friends, etc. These leaflets provide handy “take home” information that your acquaintance can read at the time of his choosing. They also ensure that important points that you may not have had time to make, are fully covered.
To defeat Islam, it is not warriors we need - it is teachers.
Not impressed with the answers given. I want a bona fide definition of a "moderate muslim" something that will resonate down the ages to come. I am relying on the impressive display of intelect I have come to expect from this blog to put my somewhat feeble intelect to rest on this matter. And no, I am not being difficult or ornery. I am searching for the Unicorn. Can someone, anyone, help me with this quest. It must be in language that anyone can appreciate and be concise non-defamatory, logical and no long words like "epistemology". This definition has to be definitive. Not everyone likes long words or understands thier meaning. Particularly those who have been enriched and don't have recourse to HE.
Can anyone out there help ? No sarcasm intended.
I suppose the closest one can come to "moderate Moslems" are the members of the Nizari and Ahmadi sects, which make up 1% to 2% of Islam. But mainstream Islam does not consider them to be Moslem, and they are not allowed to make the Hajj. The Pakistani Nobel Physics Prize winner, Abdus Salam, was an Ahmadi. His tombstone was originally inscribed "First Islamic Nobel Prize Winner", but "Islamic" was scratched out by order of the Pakistani government.
Undaunted wrote:
I was out yesterday and saw a man wearing a shirt with an image of a tricked out M-4 with the caption: "Jihadist Stopper"... or some such.
...
But it was just some guy with a shirt.
....................
Maybe it's because I'm out here on the Left Coast, where I see morons in "Che" t-shirts every other day, but I would have been quite heartened by this.
This was a guy who not only knew—something, at least—about the threat from Jihad, but was willing to come right out and publicly wear it on a shirt.
Whatever the depth of his understanding of Jihad, it is likely that other people will come up and ask this guy about his shirt, which will educate others about the Jihad threat, at least to some extent.
I would have talked with him, and seen how much he knew about the fight against Jihad—including sites like this one.
The more people understand the Jihad threat, the better.
In the wake of the Ft. Hood massacre, I have heard more commentators actually use "the J-word"—Bill O'Reilly, Sean Hannity, Glenn Beck, and Dennis Miller, among them. I believe this is a good thing.
And in 5 years time, when this 90 morphs into 900, what then will German infidel society do?
Hesperado and some others here believe that the more magnified the threat to the West, the more clarified and defiant will be our response. But there is an alternate scenario: That as our internal and external security becomes increasingly precarious, our instinct for self-preservation will inspire not defiance and civilizational self-defense, but rather ever-expanding levels of accommodation and dhimmitude.
Think of it folks, what happens to a man as he ages and begins to physically decay? Among other things, he develops feet of clay; he seeks to avoid a physical confrontation that he can't win. Why should an aging society behave any differently?
This is why I believe the battle for the West will be decided in the coming decade. Without a dramatic change in immigration, security, and educational policies, critical mass will be achieved by the Muslims within the next ten years, certainly in Europe. This is not a prediction of a Muslim-majority, it's a prediction of an ever-growing and assertive minority having its way against an aging, and fearful majority that has lost its sense of identity and purpose.
The idea that the West will be able to successfully deal with Islamization 40 or 50 years down the road is myopia. The future is now.
Understand your discouragement.
That said, it was a public expression of the right sort of sentiment.
And that has value in itself.
Okay; Spirit Wolf, Davegreybeard, and gravenimage... you're right. The shirt's a start, and education is an important part of the battle.
Pardon my arrogance.
Respects...
Not impressed with the answers given. I want a bona fide definition of a "moderate muslim" something that will resonate down the ages to come. I am relying on the impressive display of intelect I have come to expect from this blog to put my somewhat feeble intelect to rest on this matter. And no, I am not being difficult or ornery. I am searching for the Unicorn. Can someone, anyone, help me with this quest.
Question: To what purpose?
Oriana Fallaci , in Age of Reason, said it loud and clear.
"Moderate Islam does not exist. And it does not exist because there is not such a thing as Good Islam or Bad Islam. There is Islam and that's all. And Islam is the Koran. Nothing but the Koran. And the Koran is the Mein Kampf of a religion which has always aimed to eliminate the others."