But wait! I thought all the learned analysts had assured us that there is no death penalty for apostasy in Islam! Isn't that right, Dr. Bassiouni? Mr. Kruse? Ms. Heagney?
"Turkey: Iranian Atheist Risks Death Penalty If Repatriated," from ANSAmed, November 30 (thanks to Insubria):
(ANSAmed) - ANKARA, NOVEMBER 30 - Turkish authorities will be announcing their decision in the coming days over whether or not to repatriate an Iranian citizen who - having escaped from her country after publicly declaring she was an atheist - could be sentenced to death for apostasy if sent back. Negar Azizmoradi, Iranian leader of the controversial International Raelian Movement, was arrested just over a week ago in Istanbul on her arrival in the city with an "irregular" passport, and since then has been held in a refugee centre in the Turkish metropolis. Raelians are part of a sect founded in 1974 by the former sports journalist Claude Vorilhon, 63, as known as Rael. His followers believe that human beings were created on Earth by extraterrestrials with biogenetical engineering, and therefore consider themselves to be atheist and support human cloning, which they believe to be the key to eternal life. Appeals to help the thirty-something Iranian woman have been launched by both the Raelian movement and Iranian refugee groups abroad. In them, Turkish authorities have been asked to release the woman - who reportedly has caught a lung infection in jail - and allow her to go to a European country.(ANSAmed).
The "International Raelian Movement" were last in the news when they assured everyone they would, in a month, a week, a day, be cloning a human, and just hold on, they'd bring forth the evidence right away, and everyone held on, and they didn't. But the larger point, that someone who leaves Islam is unlikely, under a regime such as that of the Islamic Republic, to escape mistreatment, remains true. One wonders if, however, such a case might not play into the hands of the Islamic Republic of Iran, that could hold up her "Raelian" beliefs for inspection and raillery, and leave it at that. This is, unfortunately, the kind of apostate that apologists for Islam might well be able to exploit, and punish, in different ways, for the alternative that apostate has chosen is neither a venerable religion, nor post-Enlightenment free thinking, but rather, another kind of mental enslavement with all the elements of a cult, including the cult leader - former sports journalist Claude Vorilhon -- who is still going strong.
But the larger point -- that someone who leaves Islam, is a Defector from the Army of Islam, is unlikely, under a regime such as that of the Islamic Republic, to escape some kind of severe mistreatment, either by the state, or by Muslims taking matters into their own hands to see their own brand of Islamic justice done -- remains unassailably true.
Raelians may consider themselves "atheist", but they're sure not scientific.
The problem with cloning is this: If you clone a 50 year old man, what you end up with is a baby with 50 year old DNA. This was Dolly the Sheep's problem; she was older genetically than she was chronologically.
Even people who regularly clone annual plants know that eventually your clones get "old", and aren't any good any more, and you can't clone any longer off the mother. (I'm a terrible gardener, I don't grow anything.) It's definitely not the route to "eternal life".
That being said, if she only got as far as Turkey, she may well have problems, and BE sent back to be killed - simply because of the "atheism" angle.
Not to worry - Islam doesn't put people to death for being apostates. Maybe we should send those CAIR apologists over to Turkey to free this woman and clear up all that Islamic "misunderstanding".
As the previous two posters note, "Raelian's", are, generally speaking, barking mad—and not exactly poster boys for the grandeur of religious freedom.
But, as much as I respect this point—so what? This woman hardly deserves to die for her wonky ideas. (She does deserve to be roundly ridiculed for them, but that is a separate issue).
While it would be much more satisfying for the West to give asylum to someone who is not an obvious nut-job, it is still incumbent upon decent people to come to this woman's aid.
As absurd as the beliefs of the "International Raelian Movement" are, they are nowhere near as harmful as those of the "religion"—Islam—that would execute her for holding them.
Being a nut is not a crime. Murdering nuts because they disagree with you is a crime.
The Iranian government is guilty of immense crimes. That government's crimes are so immense, even by comparison with the heinous standards typical of governments, that the death penalty should be considered for the Iranian government and for many of its clerical leaders. At a minimum life in prison.
Your point is well taken. The right to swing your fist ends at my jaw.
In Sahih Bukhari, the most canonical of hadith collections, Muhammad said,
Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.".
I really loved this blog. I'll start a blog like this in Turkish. Many people don't hear these news in mainstream media.
I hope we won't deport her, being an atheist is not a crime in Turkey and death penalty is abolished for any crime. But I'm sure our Islamic government thinks she deserves execution and they admire Iran for what they can't do in Turkey.
Sonsuz,
Good for you! Yes, please do so, since the MSM will never print/report anything critical of islam.
I really loved this blog. I'll start a blog like this in Turkish. Many people don't hear these news in mainstream media.
Well golly-gee Mister Spencer..There's hope for Turkey (and us infidels) yet! Turkey will never be the same!
Maybe Turkey should send Azizmoradi to Israel to live there. Israel may not welcome her either, even though the Raelians believe in a slight variation of the Jewish founding myth. The Israelis might not like her since the logo of her movement is the swastika inside the Star of David:
"Like Jews and Christians, Raelians believe that the ancient Israelites had a special covenant with Earth's creator. But where Jews and Christian believe that covenant was with God, Raelians believe it was with "the Elohim" - space aliens who created humanity in test tubes thousands of years ago. (Elohim also happens to be one of the Hebrew words for God.)
Raelians also believe the destruction of the world is near and that before the space aliens can come back to Earth to rescue the righteous, the state of Israel must grant Raelians land in Jerusalem on which to build an embassy to welcome the aliens.
Without an embassy, Raelians say, mankind's extraterrestrial creators won't come back.
Because the Israeli government continues to ignore written correspondence from Raelians, the movement is stepping up its efforts to convert Jews and get them to lobby Israel to grant land for the embassy.
Few Jews are converting, however. What makes Jews specially nervous about the movement is its logo: a swastika inside the Star of David."
The Gazette (Montreal, Quebec)
July 22, 1991, Monday, FINAL EDITION
Raelians' use of swastika and conversion bids offend Jews
BYLINE: DAVID JOHNSTON GAZETTE
SECTION: NEWS; Pg. A4
How funny. Maybe the US should lead the effort to give the persecuted Raelians a national home in their holy land: Jerusalem. The US could give them billions of dollars and political support, and the Raelians can drive the Jews out of Israel and wait for their savior.
Haaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Maybe the Iranians don't like her because they are offended at the Raelians logo.
@dave742
The Iranians don't have a problem with the swastika, it's the Star of David. Maybe if they would put the Star of David in the middle of a really big swastika. That would stem the offense.
Symbols are so important, don't-a-know.
dave742, if you apply a little research and less knee-jerk grasping you'll find that the swastika is a representation of the hindu ( also buddhism, jainism, mithraism, kabbalah and occultist) symbol for peace, good luck and/or the physical representation of the Chakras. The newer raelian logo is a clever use of the lotus petals incorporating a 6 armed swastika.
When the swastika is turned 45 degrees it becomes a symbol of fascism.
Now is this person a raelian or an Atheist. Can't be both.
Question everything:
[if you apply a little research and less knee-jerk grasping you'll find...]
Yes, honey. I know. This is from the same article I quoted above:
"The swastika began long ago as a symbol of the sun or of the supreme deity. According to the Dictionary of Symbols, by J.E. Cirlot, it was used by 'almost every ancient and primitive culture all over the world.' Historian Mason Wade, in his monumental The French Canadians, writes that the swastika was a symbol of friendship among the Huron Indians who traded with the early white settlers of New France in the 1600s.Wade also says that Ursuline nuns who educated young Huron girls incorporated the swastika into their own needlepoint art, making the swastika a part of French Quebec's artistic heritage."
Israelis didn't seem to get the 45 degree thing, though:
“Four members of a fringe group from France called Raelian were detained in downtown Jerusalem last night for handing out leaflets with a Star of David imposed over a swastika. About 100 local people surrounded the group, particularly infuriated that dissemination of such material would occur on the eve of Holocaust Remembrance Day.”
The Jerusalem Post
May 2, 1989, Tuesday
SWASTIKAS IN JERUSALEM
BYLINE: David Makovsky
Arrested for handing out leaflets! More persecution of the poor Raelians! Here is why they changed their logo:
"'It used to be a swastika inside the star of David,' the man said. 'But we changed it out of sensitivity to the Jewish people.'"
The Globe and Mail (Canada)
March 29, 1993 Monday
MIDDLE KINGDOM BELIEFS Waiting for God with the ever-optimistic
BYLINE: PATRICK MARTIN
That story, however, is just a cover so that the Jews will not be suspicious of their plan to expel the Jews from Jerusalem. The Raelian equivalent of Taqiyya!
Here's more on the group:
"Rael advocates free love, group sex, nude meditation and eternal cloning. New members undergo a two-part induction process, the first of which is a 'sensualisation' seminar. Sex is obviously a draw for male members, and perhaps that's why the Raelians have an inordinate number of strippers among their flock."
The Independent (London)
June 11, 2002, Tuesday
OUT OF THIS WORLD; MEMBERS OF THE RAELIAN CULT CLAIM TO BE ON THE VERGE OF CREATING THE FIRST CLONED HUMAN BEING. SUSAN HUGHES GLIMPSES THEIR VISION OF THE FUTURE AT UFOLAND, THEIR QUEBEC BASE
BYLINE: Susan Hughes
Sounds pretty cool. I am going to sign up. I want the biggest house in Jerusalem when we kick everyone out to reclaim our Holy Land.
"Raelians believe that aliens created the human race about 25,000 years ago."
Washington University Law Review, 2006,
84 Wash. U. L. Rev. 63
ARTICLE: INTELLIGENT DESIGN AND THE FIRST AMENDMENT: A RESPONSE
NAME: JAY D. WEXLER
Jews say that they should have Palestine because they were there first. Obviously, me and my fellow Raelians were there long before the Jews, and we therefore have the original claim to the land. Our Holy Land. If you live in Jerusalem, please vacate your home within 30 days.
Everybody here knows that the wacky crap the Raelians believe or claim to believe doesn't matter much. Right?
The question is whether the Turkish courts are going to cave to the theocrats and put this pitiable idiot up for execution.
The theocrats are gaining power daily in Turkey. And it may well be soon that the Turks find themselves in the same position as the Persians ... crushed and tormented by their preachers.
That means that this case, as comical as the subject matter is, actually matters. At least as far as being an indicator of how far the disease of theocracy has progressed in what was once, relatively secular and sophisticated Turkey.
BTW I think the Greeks and Armenians better be paying pretty close attention.
They're always next on the Turkish menu.
dave742, why do you use 'honey' when you address me?
I wouldn't be surprised if you did take up with another cult. It fits the obvious lack of comprehension that your posts exude and the desperation for someone to hear your sad little voice.
Poor, lonely dave742.....
Question Everything:
[dave742, why do you use 'honey' when you address me?]
You told me about the swastika history with a snotty comment (if you apply a little research and less knee-jerk grasping you'll find...). You obviously thought you were being the know-it-all, and because I already knew what you were bringing up, I answered with sarcasm. I guess I have to end my sarcastic remarks with "/sarc" from now on.
[I wouldn't be surprised if you did take up with another cult.]
I am not in a cult now. I am an atheist. I have never heard of atheism being a cult. The Raelian religion does sound like fun, considering that my wife and I have been know to do some swapping. Maybe it's a good way to meet new like-minded people, and get a free house in Jerusalem as well.
joeblough:
[Everybody here knows that the wacky crap the Raelians believe or claim to believe doesn't matter much. Right?]
How funny. You are obviously referring to the space aliens part of their beliefs. I quoted the following above:
"Like Jews and Christians, Raelians believe that the ancient Israelites had a special covenant with Earth's creator. But where Jews and Christian believe that covenant was with God, Raelians believe it was with "the Elohim" - space aliens who created humanity in test tubes thousands of years ago. (Elohim also happens to be one of the Hebrew words for God.)"
All the Raelians did regarding their founding myth is replace the God in the "heavens" with a space alien. Why is it completely rational to believe that some old man in the clouds is watching you and judging you, but to believe that instead of the old guy in the clouds, it was really a space alien, is "wacky crap"? From my point of view, the two are identical.
Question Everything:
[Poor, lonely dave742.....]
If you knew my wife and I (regarding what I mentioned above), you would realize that being "poor" and "lonely" is far rom my reality. I actually have quite a good time. But thanks for caring.
An Atheist swinger......riiiiiiight!
From your posts you come across as a desperately sad moslem.
Funny that, eh?
p.s. Your 'sarcasm' needs some work. Actually quite a lot.
It sounds like the Raelians have been drinking the same stuff that some of the Black Muslim sects drink, with their ideas of the white race being created by an evil demon and blacks destined to be rescued by their space brothers coming in the "mother ship". As for myself, I prefer the Sky Kingdom.
Question everything:
[you come across as a desperately sad moslem]
You think this because you cannot comprehend someone whose worldview is not controlled by in-group thinking. I know dozens of non-Muslims who agree with most of my politics. Maybe you haven't met anyone unlike yourself because you live in the middle of Nebraska somewhere.
The sad people are the ones who read this blog and believe the crap it contains, walking through life desperately afraid of when the evil Muslims (or Commies, or whatever other boogeyman you're afraid of) are going to get you. Luckily, I don't have these worries. I do empathize with victims of our pathetic culture, but it doesn't affect my whole life like your paranoia affects yours. But thanks again for caring.
"I prefer the Sky Kingdom." -- from a posting just above
Well, I prefer Sky King:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LBEJiOZKNs&feature=related
I guess that's what makes horse races.
Ah, Sky King, the Holy Writ, or the Holy Video, itself!
Now is this person a raelian or an Atheist. Can't be both
I'm only going to address this coz I'm bored. ;)
I suppose it depends on one point of view. If one defines a "god" as necessarily a non-material being, then they are atheists. If not, well, the creation of life is a "god-like" act; but as we mere humans now know how to manipulate DNA and possibly create a new species, that would put US in the category of "gods". One of the more striking genetic manipulations that comes immediately to mind is the "spider-goat". No, it's not a scary monster, it's a goat who makes spider silk in her milk, which can be extracted for industrial purposes. If one worships these mythical genetically-engineering aliens as "gods", then that would make us at least minor gods.
The whole thing, however, is not only preposterous, it also seems to be another excuse for sexual hedonism; fortunately, they do advocate the wearing of condoms. (I got this info from a skeptic's site. I really don't feel like wading through their own literature right now, I have more sensible things to do!) I've also seen references to it being a version of "intelligent design" for atheists. Sheesh.
I'm not an advocate of half-baked space visitor theories (outside of entertaining movies or books), nor am I supportive of the "panspermia" concept (unless such evidence comes to hand). It generally bothers me re: the lack of imagination of space-visitor fanatics, though, they generally don't grasp the fundamental idea of separate evolutionary paths, and their "aliens" generally look a lot like us (a la Star Trek) or an evolved version of us (Greys, for instance).
You might think then, it's ironic that I run SETI@Home. That's because I think looking for someone else's stray broadcasts is a legitimate inquiry into the question of whether there is technological life somewhere out there. It might take a long time, it might be never, but now that SETI is a volunteer force, we can have the patience to wait. In a way, it's kind of a good thing the US government killed it's SETI project - now uncredentialed mooks like me can have a hand in Big Science. And whomever's computer finds the holy grail, they (and their team) get the glory.
I also hang around at JPL's PlanetQuest page; it's amazing, they seem to find new planets by the month, and so far, all within a radius of only about 300 light-years.
However, the realistic view is that the first alien life we encounter will likely be a bacterium - or a fossil of such.
All that aside, I certainly don't think advocates of crackpot science ought to be killed - just confronted and their piss-poor understanding of current scientific knowledge cleared up for the confused. And there's so many believers in bad science out there, you'd never be able to dig a hole big enough. :P
I find it odd in a way that "dave742" is so focused on the use of symbols by the pathetic "Raelians"—considering that his own avatar with the old IntenseDebate system was the loathsome *Hizb'allah logo*.
Ladies and gentlemen
re. our Mohammedan dementor, dave742, who is probably a 'dawud'...
has anyone else noticed that he mostly seems to pop up in stories with an Iranian angle?
I see him as a hired pen of the Iranian Islamic regime, or else a freelance supporter thereof, here to try to confuse the newbies, 'split the camp', sow disinformation and doubt, and generally run interference for Islam; but with a special emphasis on anything pertaining to Iran.
(I'm a bit surprised he hasn't made an appearance in the story about the British yachties that the Iranians have just kidnapped).
dumbledoresarmy:
[has anyone else noticed that he mostly seems to pop up in stories with an Iranian angle?]
Have you noticed that JW seems to focus on Iran and all things Islamic? If I talked about anything else, it would be off topic. On HotAir, Townhall, Pajamasmedia, etc., I talk about Chavez, Health care, etc.
"From your posts you come across as a desperately sad moslem."
I think he comes across as an apologist for Islam, with a special interest in apologizing for Iran and its terrorist lackeys, as dda points out. I doubt he's a hired pen of the Islamic regime, as dda speculates, but he might as well be. And as he points out by saying that he's friends with dozens of non-Muslims who agree with most of his politics, his apologetic views on Islam aren't much different to the platitudes offered by our elites, or those who haven't bothered to educate themselves about Islam. His fascination and apologetics for Iran, however, do put him in a more extreme place than his co-apologists, who would tend to claim that Iran is extreme, but Islam isn't.