Why I Murdered 13 American Soldiers at Fort Hood: Nidal Hassan Explains It All to You

Verse 60:08 "Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you NOT for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just."

What is with all of the double negatives? Couldn't Allah just come right out and make a simple declarative statement? If they are "not forbidden" from doing this or that, that still doesn't mean they are affirmatively commanded to do this or that. It just means that they are not forbidden. And if the thing in question is a good thing, presumably in this case to befriend those who fight you but NOT those who fight you for religion or homes, it is just a circle of illogical mumbo jumbo. No wonder Muslims are so confused and go out and blow themselves up.

Can anyone reword that entire verse including the second not in the middle about religion and homes so that it makes simple sense?

You do seem to be quite evasive in your declarations, if not hysterical. Also, Timothy McVeigh was not part of any known movement. His crime occurred 14 years ago, and there have not been any followers of his carrying on that work. You might actually take a look at Major Hasan's slide show rather than balling up like a porcupine in distress. Major Hasan, on the contrary, attended a radical mosque in Virginia, e-mailed an al-Qaida supporting imam in Yemen at least twenty times, and also apparently engaged in wire transfers with people Pakistan. He was not a stray penny, out of the loop, or a failure like Timothy McVeigh. You can keep grinding out the same old talking points, but they do not impress anyone here, and are becoming less impressive with the general public. You are like someone who removes or repaints signs on a road that would warn a driver about a downed bridge or an upcoming cliff. Such a person will not be deemed innocent of the harm which ensues.

Totalitarian ideologies tend to be that that way. No matter how many failures or shortcomings appear before them, Islamists dare not openly question the efficacy of any action taken or course pursued in the name of Islam.

Comparing American foreign policy with Islam is completely inapt (and inept). The former does not exist with the goal of making everyone in the world either an American, a person of subservient status or dead. But this is precisely what Islam offers, i.e., be a Muslim, be a second-class non-Muslim human being or be no longer living. Moreover, American foreign policy, while certainly not perfect and at times very wrong-headed, has also been invaluable on numerous occasions in insuring that freedom is preserved, protected, promoted and even extended to different regions of the earth. As examples here I would mention the Truman Doctrine, the Marshall Plan, MacArthur's enlightened administration of Japan after WWII and many of President Reagan's initiatives which helped accelerate the demise of the freedom-crushing Soviet Union.

By contrast, when has Islam ever brought true liberty to anyone? Islam enslaves the mind and treats non-Muslims as the equivalent of human waste. Your comparison disgusts me, as it should anyone who knows of America's greatness and Islam's wretchedness.

Finally, to drive home the idiocy of your comparison, Nidal Hasan acted in the name of Islam while Timothy McVeigh did not act in the name of American foreign policy. Duh. Really, and as Worroy01 has already pointed out, you impress no one here and people like you are impressing fewer and fewer folks with your pathetic, ill-reasoned attempts to exculpate something which should not be exculpated-----Islam.

DP111: by the UCMJ, Hasan will be tried before one judge(not likely) or a jury of his peers, which will probably be 6 or 12 officers, as opposed to enlisted men.

These guys are less likely than civilians to get their throats slit but, you're right: it will be on their minds.

Agreed, Cornelius (and I am drinking a beer right now while writing to you). Sadly, though, my Steelers lost today to a very scrappy Bengals team (hats off to them). Still, your trinity of pleasures you listed above holds true irrespective of this temporary setback.

It is the reaction one would expect from a follower of Jim Jones or Charlie Manson.

Also, note the canned statement that he has posted elsewhere: "You are more likely to be a victim of a non-muslim fellow American than a muslim terrorist so we need to address both problems and not just concentrate on muslim terrorists."

It is a conflation of ordinary crime act, such as armed robbery, with a religious based attack, such as a suicide bombing at a marketplace.

45ch -

1. Nadal was acting on commands in Islam to commit his act. McVeigh was reacting to government policy. Act versus react.
2. McVeigh was agnostic at the time of his act. Nadal was and is a Muslim. Nobody in Islam is declaring him an apostate. Interesting, no?

"If Islam never existed, Nidal would have found some other ideology to influence him to acts of violence" Really? Then there should be equal numbers of terrorist acts between Muslims and non Muslims, proportionate to the population.

"You are more likely to be a victim of a non-muslim fellow American than a muslim terrorist so we need to address both problems and not just concentrate on muslim terrorists." Do we? You seem to be making the point that Islamic violence is a subset of all violence; that it is irrelevant that Islamic violence finds as its inspiration a set of sacred texts. An Islamist can find comfort in his texts that his violence will lead him to paradise, regardless of his sins - no other religion promotes this nonsense.

"As Ray Ibrahim has said, Islam and Sharia embody a precise set of principles which can be understood..." -- jewdog

Exactly. It's their game plan, and includes all the tactics and methods of deception fully spelled out. Amazingly, they even proudly and loudly shout it from the rooftops. It ought to be obvious that if you have an enemy, and further if you have his game plan in your hands, which he has not only freely given to you, he even insists on explaining it to you in great detail, that ought to be to your advantage, right?

So, since jihadists are guided by unchanging Islamic principles handed down through Mohammad and enunciated by scholars from Cairo to Qom, and since it is all so precise and predictable, then why are we not making better use of this intelligence in fashioning both domestic and foreign policy that takes this into account? Instead, we (meaning our clueless leaders, both cultural and politial) ignore 1400 years of history and act as if we were born yesterday. We are blindsided when someone like OBL or KSM or Nidal decides to act, even though they have announced their intentions before hand.

The intelligence agencies seem to be busy identifying and rounding up terrorists, so it appears that somewhere within the bowls of the CIA and FBI someone has a clue, and perhaps is making use of the Islamic playbook in just the way I describe above. This is good if that is, indeed, the case. However, there needs to be a broader effort to educate the public, the voters who put politicians into office, about the challenge we face. It's here where the education efforts of Robert and Pamela and Geert and Bridget and Daniel are so badly needed, and their web sites are freely accessible portals providing an education that would not otherwise be available. No less valuable are the real life stories of Muslim apostates like Nonie Darwish and Ayann Hirsi Ali and many others who can explain the realities of life under Shariah, which many in the West who have grown up within liberal societies simply cannot, or refuse to, believe are problematical.

There's a business opportunity waiting for some enterprising game writer to add appropriate modules to the large repertoire of games, such as Age of Empires, where epic battles in Islamic history could be played out. Wouldn't it be great to see a module where, say, the Battle of the Camel is fought and a game option is that, instead of pardoning her, Ali decides to execute Aisha? Or Mahmet II takes an arrow through the eye during the assault on Constantinople in 1453, or, Saladin is murdered before he can recapture Jerusalem in 1187, or Philip IV of France dies before he can disband the Knights Templar in 1307? Lots of material here just waiting to be exploited.

Worry01,

Would it be ok with you if somebody started a website solely reporting on non-muslims with non-islamic ideologies who commit acts of criminality and terror ?

Here is a partial list of mostly non-muslim mass murderers :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_murderers_and_spree_killers_by_number_of_victims

Singling out just one ideology and not looking at the entire spectrum of ideologies including husbands/boyfriends who have the ideology that beating up women is one way to keep them in order is dangerous to our security as can be seen by numerous cases here in the US where people die everyday from one type of terror or another

Did they ever teach logic, I mean formal logic, where you went to school?

Or do they not teach logic at the madrassa?

Wife beaters do not say: "I have to stay true to the tenets of wife beating or there will be no reward for me in heaven"

Serial killers do not say: "I must do this for the sake of Satan (except in Berkowitz's case) or I won't get my 72 virgins and prepubescent boys"

The Columbine idiots didn't say: "Wow, Mr. Ancient Spree Killer is the perfect man for all times, worthy of emulation. I must kill all who do not believe in him."

When you have a logical argument worthy of discussion, let us know.

Worry01,

An ideology is a system of beliefs and there does not have to exist a well defined organization behind it

ref : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideology#Ideology_in_everyday_society

Since the terror from Timothy McVeigh, thousands of Americans have died from one form or terror or another, from ideologies that are non-islamic in nature ( example, every year, hundreds of people get murdered by intimate partners who believe in the ideology of murder if the wife or girlfriend cheats )

winoceros, you stated :

Did they ever teach logic, I mean formal logic, where you went to school?

Or do they not teach logic at the madrassa?

Wife beaters do not say: "I have to stay true to the tenets of wife beating or there will be no reward for me in heaven"

Serial killers do not say: "I must do this for the sake of Satan (except in Berkowitz's case) or I won't get my 72 virgins and prepubescent boys"

The Columbine idiots didn't say: "Wow, Mr. Ancient Spree Killer is the perfect man for all times, worthy of emulation. I must kill all who do not believe in him."

When you have a logical argument worthy of discussion, let us know.

Comment :

The criminals you mentioned, are their crimes less because they were non-muslim ?

If Islam never existed, will we have peaceful world ?

Blaming just one ideology for the problems in the world is dangerous to our security.

You are more likely to be a victim of a non-muslim American than you would be a victim of a muslim

Wellington, you stated :

Comparing American foreign policy with Islam is completely inapt (and inept). The former does not exist with the goal of making everyone in the world either an American, a person of subservient status or dead. But this is precisely what Islam offers, i.e., be a Muslim, be a second-class non-Muslim human being or be no longer living.

Comment :

Both American foreign policy and Islam are ideological in nature and that was what I was saying.

An ideology is a system of beliefs and it does not depend on any formal organization, as in the case of Timothy McVeigh who was not part of any formal organization but who did react to American foreign policy as Nidal did too.

Did American foreign policy or Islam override the free will of Nidal or Timothy McVeigh ? No it did not; they committed their criminal acts out of their own free will.

Wellington, you stated :

Moreover, American foreign policy, while certainly not perfect and at times very wrong-headed, has also been invaluable on numerous occasions in insuring that freedom is preserved, protected, promoted and even extended to different regions of the earth. As examples here I would mention the Truman Doctrine, the Marshall Plan, MacArthur's enlightened administration of Japan after WWII and many of President Reagan's initiatives which helped accelerate the demise of the freedom-crushing Soviet Union.

Comment :

American foreign policy has been a detriment to the world and to Americans.

If you look at the history of the US govt,

from its rebellion ,

its treatment of blacks and native Americans,

its imperial conquests of native American nations,

hawaii,

spanish colonies,

its gun boat diplomacy,

its genocidal occupation of the Philippines,

its merciless atom and fire bombing destruction of a defeated Japan

and its blow back policies that spawned WW2, the Cold War, the Middle Eastern Wars, Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the expansion of communism/fascism etc. etc.

and the resulting loss of hundreds of millions of lives and the loss of hundreds of thousands of US soldiers dying horrifying deaths or the hundreds of thousands of US soldiers maimed, deformed, blinded, paralyzed or disfigured for life

and the despair experienced by hundreds of thousands of American families who have their loved ones adversely affected by war,

you would have to conclude that the US govt. has not been a blessing to the world

Wellington, you stated :

By contrast, when has Islam ever brought true liberty to anyone? Islam enslaves the mind and treats non-Muslims as the equivalent of human waste. Your comparison disgusts me, as it should anyone who knows of America's greatness and Islam's wretchedness.

Comment :

The US govt or the Caliphate cannot liberate people by collaterally killing the very people they are trying to liberate.

America is great but not the US govt.

If the US govt was never a military power, the world would have been spared the advance of nazism, communism and the resulting middle eastern conflicts and the tragedy of hundreds of thousands of our beloved soldiers either dying horrifying deaths or being maimed, deformed, blinded, disfigured or paralyzed for life due to WW1, WW2 and the Cold War

Wellington, you stated :

Finally, to drive home the idiocy of your comparison, Nidal Hasan acted in the name of Islam while Timothy McVeigh did not act in the name of American foreign policy. Duh. Really, and as Worroy01 has already pointed out, you impress no one here and people like you are impressing fewer and fewer folks with your pathetic, ill-reasoned attempts to exculpate something which should not be exculpated-----Islam.

Comment :

Would Nidal have acted solely on his religion or did American foreign policy have a lot to do with his actions ?

Both Nidal and Timothy McVeigh reacted to American foreign policy

Abscedere,

If you give me your e-mail address, I am sure I can send you news of non-muslims committing acts of terror on a regular basis.

Remember, ideology is a system of beliefs and the person following that ideology does not have to belong to any formal organization, as in the case of Timothy McVeigh.

Below is one example of terror happening right here in America on a regular basis:

Hundreds of Americans are murdered every year by intimate partners who believe in the ideology of murder when their partner cheats on them

here is the most recent spree killing due to the ideology of murder :

http://www.bild.de/BILD/news/bild-english/world-news/2009/08/05/bridgeville-gym-shooting/gunman-killing-spree-at-la-fitness-in-us-leaves-at-least-four-dead.html

here is another spree killing due to the ideology of murder :

http://www.bild.de/BILD/news/bild-english/world-news/2009/07/06/miami-party-shooting/12-injured-in-masked-gunmen-bloodbath-in-florida.html

Spirit Wolf, you stated :

If the US govt was never a military power, the world would have been spared the advance of nazism, communism and the resulting middle eastern conflicts and the tragedy of hundreds of thousands of our beloved soldiers either dying horrifying deaths or being maimed, deformed, blinded, disfigured or paralyzed for life due to WW1, WW2 and the Cold War

Neither the rise of Hitler nor the Bolshevik Revolution of 1917 had anything to do with the US or its unilateral policies. They arose from serious internal problems in their respective countries - the Bolsheviks being a reaction against the Czar, and Hitler came to power when there was a serious depression on, and the government kept falling every few months.

Comment :

Without US interference in WW1, Germany would have had a stalemate with Britain and dominated Russia and prevented communism from expanding its power.

Germany's victory over both Britain and Russia would have resulted in the prevention of the humiliations experienced by German people due to the Treaty of Versailles which Hitler exploited to his advantage.

Without the treaty of Versailles, Germany would have been powerful and triumphant enough to prevent the spread of Nazism and the election of Hitler to power

Spirit Wolf, you stated :

As for the pact that ended WWI and took away Germany's rights to a military (which Hitler campaigned against), that was a group thing, and America was not particularly in the forefront of that - Britain and France were very eager to see Germany disarmed. As for Hitler himself, he didn't give a damn about America, as he saw it as a weak country full of "mongrels".

Comment :

Without the US govt entering into WW1, there would not have been a treaty of Versailles and the humiliations the German people experienced from that Treaty which Hitler exploited to his advantage.

Spirit Wolf, you stated :

America's real rise to power didn't happen until after WW2.

Comment :

Without American power, Britain could not have won WW1 and the communists could not have expanded their power after Germany's defeat due to American involvement

Spirit Wolf, you stated :

As far as the cold war goes, it wasn't unilateral, either. The US and Russia did not trust one another, and the Soviet Union was quite expansionist, which had the eastern parts of western Europe peeing in their pants. America stood behind Europe in order to keep Soviet hands off more and more territory.

Comment :

The Cold War was due to the US govt being involved in WW1 and the crushing of Japan during WW2.

People read about the following regarding how communism expanded in Asia and the US govt was more interested in destroying Japan and not even caring about our own US soldiers imprisoned in Japan :

US govt. fire and atom bombing Japan in 1945 when Japan was already defeated as early as July of 1944 when Tojo resigned and Japan was negotiating concessions to the communists but FDR did not care about communists either killing tens of millions of civilians or that the crushing of Japan enabled communism to expand in Asia resulting in hundreds of thousands of US soldiers either dying horrifying deaths or being maimed, disfigured, deformed, blinded or paralyzed for life during the cold war.

US/Allied POWs in Japan and hundreds of thousands of Japanese children being terrorized, tortured and burned alive in the US fire and atom bombings of Japan and must have concluded that FDR/Truman did not care about the plight of their own US soldiers captive in Japan and the lives of hundreds of thousands of Japanese children

Pazuzu,

Both Timothy McVeigh and Nidal reacted to American foreign policy.

The question is, would Nidal have committed his crimes solely on religious beliefs if the US govt was not involved in wars and the collateral killing of hundreds of thousands of civilians according to the Lancet report ?

ref : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancet_surveys_of_Iraq_War_casualties

I was going to reply to 45ch again and specifically his absurd, bizarro world charge that the advance of Nazism and Communism was due to the existence of the American military but you already addressed that particular absurdity and so what the hell. Really, it's stunning to reflect upon a mind like 45ch's which can be so convoluted and have most everything ass backwards. I guess Islam indeed warps the brain or attracts warped brains to it or both.

Anytime a Muslim kills a kuffar it is just another act of Jihad.

The Qur'an spends over 60% of its time discussing what to do with kuffars, how to kill them, what horrible things (described in loving detail) will happen to kuffars in hell, battle tactics, etc. Muslims have killed over an estimated 270 million human beings over the last 1400 years. Do the math. That's close to 200,000 people per year. There have been over 14,000 jihadi attacks since 9/11.

Anytime a Muslim kills a kuffar it is just another act of Jihad.

Indeed, Wellington, I've never seen a more bizarre recital of twisted "history" in my life. One can get a more sensible history lesson from Simon and Peabody cartoons.

After his last post, I don't even know where to begin with him, and I'm not about to get dragged into a totally unfruitful discussion with the nut.

One thing about having been hanging around FIDOnet and the internet for so many years, I've had a really good window into the abnormal human mind ... but this is even weirder than the folks who claim that Julius Ceasar killed Jesus(?!), the ones who suffered fundie meltdown from someone asking "Where did Cain's wife come from?" and the moon-landing deniers, etc. He's even weirder than the bloke who used to live in a pyramid in Tennessee or some such, and claimed to be in contact with Greys. Mayne this is the same guy, in a different guise. Hmm.

Don't be knocking the Wayback machine.........

Hesp:

"how many other Jim Jones incidents have we seen? -- zero, "

Well, there was that Heaven's Gate cult, I think they were called, the ones who wanted to go for a comet ride. But iirc, they were all adults, and all went willingly, it appears, as opposed to Jonestown. And Japan had that cult that put the poison gas in the subways.

But it's still far and between compared to the amount of Islam-inspired violence that happens every day.

Yes, 4Chan, I do believe that eradication of Islam would be a great step forward in terms of world peace, and peace within nations. Once we don't have to worry about jihadists blowing themselves up, resources can be redirected back towards dealing with the more ground-level crimes of poverty and passion, and helping our own citizens out of poverty, so they don't feel they have to steal or turn to hard drugs for comfort and such.

You said: 'sheesh the trolls are busy'.

Of course they are! The Nidal Hasan case - complete with his damning powerpoint presentation followed by actual practical demonstration - was a spectacular case of the Cat Getting Out Of The Bag. Or perhaps, Crocodile out of the bag, or Gremlin out of the Bag.

The Mohammedtrolls are trying hard to stuff it back in before anyone notices all those teeth and claws.

Wellington, you stated :

I was going to reply to 45ch again and specifically his absurd, bizarro world charge that the advance of Nazism and Communism was due to the existence of the American military

Comment :

Sadly the US govt has not been a blessing to the world but rather facilitated the expansion of Nazism, Communism and the present middle eastern conflicts

Its not the existence of the American military that is the problem but what the US govt did during WW1 and that is the US govt facilitated the expansion of communism and nazism because if the US govt was never involved in WW1, communism and nazism would never had a chance to expand which ultimately resulted in WW2 and the Cold War in which hundreds of thousands of US soldiers were either brutally killed or were maimed, deformed, blinded, disfigured or paralyzed for life and hundreds of millions of people either were brutally killed or were maimed, disfigured, deformed, blinded or paralyzed for life due to Nazism and Communism

DDA,

If everybody had the attitude that only islamic militants are the problem, how do we stop the next Timothy McVeigh or the next non-muslim serial killer or the next non-muslim spree killer or the next non-muslim mass murderer or the next Hitler ?

You are more likely to be a victim of a non-muslim fellow American/Australian than a muslim terrorist so we need to address both problems and not just concentrate on muslim terrorists.

Hesperado, you stated :

Of all anomalous criminality, Islam represents the most massive, frequent (how many other Jim Jones incidents have we seen? -- zero, compared with thousands of incidents of Islamic violence in the last quarter century) globally influential, effectively networking through social grapevines whose sociology we still cannot sufficiently fathom, fanatically obsessive, zealously supremacist, and grotesquely ultra-violent of any we have seen in centuries, perhaps in all history.

Comment :

If you look at three types of criminality, it shows that criminality in non-muslim countries is far worse than in muslim countries :

(1) About 2000 annual murders of intimate partners in the US alone, compared to 5000 annual honor killings world wide.

ref : http://www.soundvision.com/Info/domesticviolence/statistics.asp

ref : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing

(2) Murder rates in non-muslim countries on the whole are greater than in non-war zone muslim countries

ref : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

(3) More than a hundred million have died due to genocides in non-muslim countries compared to the genocides in muslim countries

ref : http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/dictat.html

Hesperado, you stated :

And so here is the answer to 45ch's question:

-- a mass cult that, in sum, transforms anomalous criminality into the norm and then sublimates that criminality into a project of eternal war against all who do not submit themselves to it.

Comment :

A mass cult ? where is the existence of this mass cult that has an eternal war against those who do not submit ?

If you do visit muslim countries, you will realize they are just like us in every aspect except for the tiny number of muslims who long for the days of the caliphate which will never happen because islam is becoming more and more liberal as the years go by as evidenced by the presence of numerous muslim countries that have secular laws and not sharia :

Here is a list of secular muslim countries that do not follow sharia :

Burkina Faso
Chad
Gambia
Guinea
Mali
Senegal
Somalia
Kazakhstan
Kyrgystan
Tajikstan
Turkmenistan
Uzbekistan
Albania
Azerbaijan
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Kosovo

Even in the Sharia states of Malaysia, non-muslims can wear skimpy clothing and live just like Americans.

Hesperado, you stated :

I.e., the very fact that 45ch is more or less right about non-Islamic crime in non-Muslim countries -- not, of course that it is tantamount in quality to Muslim pathologies but that it is nonetheless a serious problem for us -- positively behooves us to seek ways to rid ourselves of this superadded unique problem that Muslims represent when they insinuate themselves into our societies.

Comment :

You are talking about a very tiny minority among muslims who want to impose their will on everybody else.

As I said before, the Caliphate is not returning for the very fact that muslims are not united about their religion and that is one reason you find about 57 muslim countries in the world today because muslims were never united and never will be.

As charismatic as Osama Bin Laden is to some muslims, he could not find any of the millions of American muslims on 9/11 to carry out the attacks

Spirit Wolf,

This site reminds me of the days when the media was busy discussing Monica Lewinsky's dress while Al-Qaeda was plotting to attack the US.

Instead of complaining about a tiny minority of muslims who will never pose a threat to western civilization, how about discussing the real threats to our security

Here is a partial list :

(1) American foreign policy

(2) poisons in everyday household items that can produce cancer

(3) Govt corruption in spending 68 cents of every tax dollar on the bloated, greedy, wasteful military/industrial pork laden, corporate welfare entitlement complex

(4) gang violence

(5) gun violence

(6) only 2% of imported food being inspected right now

(7) dangerous bridges

(8) Millions of consumers are being made ill, hundreds of thousands hospitalized and thousands are dying each year from preventable food borne illnesses," according to The Center for Science in the Public Interest. "Unfortunately, the FDA is saddled with outdated laws, and lacks the authority, tools and resources to fight unsafe food."

4Chan -

If you're concerned about those issues, then by all means, go to sites that address those issues. I'm sure others here are alos involved with other issues as well. I, for one, am also involved in wildlife and scientific issues, and act as a volunteer tutor to anyone who asks. I am also a cartoonist who does animal fables based on many things; my time spent here has given me the basis for my latest production (still in the works).

My concern has been, for a long time, religious-based censorship and interference with the sciences, and other forms of creeping religio-fascism. I used to rumble with the rabid fundies of ALL stripes on FIDO/Holysmoke in the BBS days, while making friends and allies with the moderates.

I see Islam as a general threat to Western freedoms, even moreso, at the moment, than the worst of the Christian hate-fundamentalists (who to me seem to simply be the other side of the coin to Islamics, and would be likely to side with them against all the "sinners", gays, atheists, etc.) No one takes the Christian fundies too seriously any more - they are basically defanged, except for the odd skirmish over "intelligent design" or whatever they're calling creationist rot now. I don't really care if someone believes that stuff, I simply don't think it belongs in a science class, at least until someone can come up with valid and credible evidence to support their case.

In the case of Islam, however, it seems to be getting a free pass from people who should bloody well know better, because, unlike criticizing Christian fundamentalism, to criticize Islamic fundamentalism is seen as "racist", and that's absolute rubbish.

My focus for being here is mostly free speech issues; as a cartoonist, I was profoundly struck by the Danish "cartoon crisis". I've never seen that sort of behaviour from groups of Christians over any movie or publication. Protests with signs and such, yes. Attempts to ban books, yes. But not rioting and killing and burning things in the street.

Islamics WILL kill you if they don't like what you say. Witness Theo van Gogh, Pim Fortuyn, and those who are in hiding for what they said, like Rushdie. THIS is why this site exists - to wake people up to the threat against our Western culture and freedoms and equalities that Ialam poses, due to its very core tenets.

Dig now?

DDA,

Treaties were not honored ?

Just as the US govt went back on treaties with the Native Americans ?

I can assure you, you are more in danger from your fellow Australians than any muslim terrorist

And you are more in danger from everyday household items or foods that you eat that can have deadly consequences either in the short term or long term.

And you are more in danger of getting cancer because cancer is the result of hate that consumes the soul.

So you would be better off concentrating on the true dangers to your health and safety and not "cooked up dangers from Islam" that only benefit the profit agenda of the bloated, greedy, corrupt military/industrial pork laden corporate welfare entitlement complex where here in the US the complex is looting the US govt of 68 cents of every hard earned tax dollar amounting to over a trillion dollars a year

Wellington, you stated :

leads you to fault the greatest and noblest political entity of all time, America, again and again)

Comment:

America is not at fault, its the corrupt US govt that is at fault.

The US govt was founded on rebellion and I cannot respect any person or entity using violence to achieve any objective, whether it be the genocidal Jewish army in Deut 20:16 or Islamic armies that swept across the middle east or the US govt that advocates violence to collaterally kill the very people it says it is liberating.

If you look at the history of the US govt,

from its rebellion ,

its treatment of blacks and native Americans,

its imperial conquests of native American nations,

hawaii,

spanish colonies,

its gun boat diplomacy,

its genocidal occupation of the Philippines,

its merciless atom and fire bombing destruction of a defeated Japan

and its blow back policies that spawned WW2, the Cold War, the Middle Eastern Wars, Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the expansion of communism/fascism etc. etc.

and the resulting loss of hundreds of millions of lives and the loss of hundreds of thousands of US soldiers dying horrifying deaths or the hundreds of thousands of US soldiers maimed, deformed, blinded, paralyzed or disfigured for life

and the despair experienced by hundreds of thousands of American families who have their loved ones adversely affected by war, you would have to conclude that the US govt. has not been a blessing to the world

Wellington, you stated :

and your inability to see that Islam is the one major religion which has a theological blueprint that GUARANTEES that it will remain a death cult for all time for a certain percentage of its believers when they don't get their way is dispositive of your emotional and intellectual blindness.

Comment:

A certain percentage ?

Yes, 1% of 1% of muslims will go to their deaths according to the directions of Osama Bin laden but almost 100% of muslims will not.

What is happening in war zones is a different story because that is what happened during the American revolution.

If you were in a war zone and you see your family murdered by rebels or collaterally killed by the occupying force, knowing that you do not compromise with injustice , what would you do ?

When a foreign power occupies another country or when separatist movements reject the govt., it tends to result in terrorism, as was seen by the torture that many loyalist Americans/British went through by being tarred ( boiling tar being poured on them) because they were seen as loyal to the occupying British forces by the American rebels.

Another form of terrorism was the killing of british troops by the American rebels, after the British troops had surrendered.

ref : http://home.golden.net/~marg/bansite/banecdotes/96quarter.html

Lynchings were ordered by American Patriot Judge Charles Lynch on the terrorized American loyalists who were loyal to the British Crown.

So terrorism can be the result of being in a war zone and its either terrorism from the occupying force through collateral actions or the terrorism of the rebels against those loyal to the occupying force.

The fact that most American loyalists who were loyal to Britain fled the US, shows the terror they faced, not only from being tarred or properties confiscated but being lynched to death.

ref : http://www.redcoat.me.uk/

Wellington, you stated :

Islam sucks and you don't get it. I doubt you ever will.

Comment:

Any ideology, including Judaism and American foreign policy, that advocate violence does suck, so just concentrating on Islam is not helpful but even dangerous, just as the media was concentrating on gossip (example : Monica Lewinsky's dress ) during the 90s while Al-Qaeda was plotting the attack on the US.

Wellington, you stated :

It was founded by one of the greatest frauds of all time (ANYONE who thinks highly of Mohammed has entirely lost the built-in crap detector they were born with) and is a prescription for the crushing of liberty. It's the ultimate cult.

Comment:

Insulting Muhammad is not going to help matters as it is important to get 1.5 billion muslims on our side so that we can prevent the next terrorist attack and the way to prevent the next terrorist attack is to co-opt the muslim world by drastically changing US foreign policy which is now catered solely to enrich the rich and powerful in the bloated, corrupt, greedy military/industrial pork laden corporate welfare entitlement complex while the so called adults send our young and beloved soldiers to their deaths all in the name of patriotism, honor and duty, during which time, the rich and powerful in the military/industrial complex laugh all the way to the bank

Wellington, you stated :

Other instititions, religions and polities have their faults to be sure, but there are some systems of thought, like Nazism, Marxism and Islam, which are so putrid that the attempt to defend them is pathetic and tragic. Done here.

Comment:

Defending violence is wrong, unless that violence is purely in self defense.

When the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor,defending Pearl Harbor was justified but what happened after Pearl Harbor when the US govt destroyed a defeated Japan, that was totally wrong.

Here is what the world reads:

(1) about the US govt. fire and atom bombing Japan in 1945 when Japan was already defeated as early as July of 1944 when Tojo resigned and Japan was negotiating concessions to the communists but FDR did not care about communists either killing tens of millions of civilians or that the crushing of Japan enabled communism to expand in Asia resulting in hundreds of thousands of US soldiers either dying horrifying deaths or being maimed, disfigured, deformed, blinded or paralyzed for life during the cold war.

(2) about US/Allied POWs in Japan and hundreds of thousands of Japanese children being terrorized, tortured and burned alive in the US fire and atom bombings of Japan and must have concluded that FDR/Truman did not care about the plight of their own US soldiers captive in Japan and the lives of hundreds of thousands of Japanese children.

Spirit Wolf, you stated :
4Chan -

If you're concerned about those issues, then by all means, go to sites that address those issues.

Comment :

A site that solely caters to gossip, as the media did during the 90s is not helpful.

Now, if Jihad watch gave practical, pragmatic solutions to the problem of terrorism or the problem of human rights in the muslim world, then it will be helpful.

If you see somebody who needs help and you don't stop to help, would that be responsible of you ?

So likewise, by me suggesting solutions to our problems in jihad watch is helping Jihad watch and not hindering Americans in anyway.

Again, gossip about islam or terrorism or human rights in muslim countries is not helpful but rather pragmatic and practical solutions.

If all jihad watch is interested in is selling books and gossip, then in the end Americans are in danger and all the bandwidth is being wasted

Spirit Wolf, you stated :

I'm sure others here are alos involved with other issues as well. I, for one, am also involved in wildlife and scientific issues, and act as a volunteer tutor to anyone who asks. I am also a cartoonist who does animal fables based on many things; my time spent here has given me the basis for my latest production (still in the works).

Comment :

As long as you are in the business of coming up with pragmatic, practical solutions, your input in jihad watch should be appreciated by all , including muslims and dissenters of American foreign policy.

Spirit Wolf, you stated :

My concern has been, for a long time, religious-based censorship and interference with the sciences, and other forms of creeping religio-fascism. I used to rumble with the rabid fundies of ALL stripes on FIDO/Holysmoke in the BBS days, while making friends and allies with the moderates.

Comment :

Yes, we should all be concerned about censorship etc but I can assure you, all our problems regarding terrorism can be solved easily if the US govt changes its foreign policy.

Look at Switzerland, do they have a terrorism problem ?

Every country that tries to oppress the minority and collaterally kills the innocent, those countries usually have a terrorist problem because terrorists thrive on recruiting from the families of victims of either US govt's foreign policy or the policies of the allies of the US

Spirit Wolf, you stated :

I see Islam as a general threat to Western freedoms, even moreso, at the moment, than the worst of the Christian hate-fundamentalists (who to me seem to simply be the other side of the coin to Islamics, and would be likely to side with them against all the "sinners", gays, atheists, etc.)

Comment :

Saying that Islam is a threat would be like saying a gun is a threat.

Yes, both a gun and Islam can influence a person to kill but is that a helpful way to look at the problem ?

If Britain did not tax the colonists, would the colonists have rebelled ?

So was the problem, the American rebellion or was the real problem, the British who taxed the colonists ?

Islam is not the real threat, its the terrorists who are the real threat and that can be solved by adopting the foreign policies of Switzerland.

If you were in a war zone and you see your family murdered by rebels or collaterally killed by the occupying force, knowing that you do not compromise with injustice , what would you do ?

When a foreign power occupies another country or when separatist movements reject the govt., it tends to result in terrorism, as was seen by the torture that many loyalist Americans/British went through by being tarred ( boiling tar being poured on them) because they were seen as loyal to the occupying British forces by the American rebels.

Another form of terrorism was the killing of british troops by the American rebels, after the British troops had surrendered.

ref : http://home.golden.net/~marg/bansite/banecdotes/96quarter.html

Lynchings were ordered by American Patriot Judge Charles Lynch on the terrorized American loyalists who were loyal to the British Crown.

So terrorism can be the result of being in a war zone and its either terrorism from the occupying force through collateral actions or the terrorism of the rebels against those loyal to the occupying force.

The fact that most American loyalists who were loyal to Britain fled the US, shows the terror they faced, not only from being tarred or properties confiscated but being lynched to death.

ref : http://www.redcoat.me.uk/

Spirit Wolf, you stated :

No one takes the Christian fundies too seriously any more - they are basically defanged, except for the odd skirmish over "intelligent design" or whatever they're calling creationist rot now. I don't really care if someone believes that stuff, I simply don't think it belongs in a science class, at least until someone can come up with valid and credible evidence to support their case.

Comment :

Just as Americans rebelled against British taxation and even terrorized American/British loyalists,

terrorism is a reaction to American foreign policy and without that, terrorism will die a very quick death as terrorists are not able to recruit anymore if there does not exist the families of victims of American foreign policy.

The reason Osama Bin Laden was able to recruit is because of the horrendous collateral deaths of children due to US bombings during the gulf war and some muslims see those children as their own and so they were vulnerable to the recruiting propaganda of Al-Qaeda.

Spirit Wolf, you stated :

In the case of Islam, however, it seems to be getting a free pass from people who should bloody well know better, because, unlike criticizing Christian fundamentalism, to criticize Islamic fundamentalism is seen as "racist", and that's absolute rubbish.

Comment :

Once again, Islam is not the practical problem but American foreign policy, just as British taxation was the problem and American rebellion was the reaction to the problem.

If the US govt withdraws from muslim lands, stops proliferating weapons to govts in the middle east, compensates all victims of terrorism and US collateral actions, I can guarantee you that terrorism will die a quick death since they will not be able to recruit.

the US govt and its allies using heavy weaponry creates collateral deaths among children and the families of those children are vulnerable to the recruiting propaganda of Al-Qaeda

Spirit Wolf, you stated :

My focus for being here is mostly free speech issues; as a cartoonist, I was profoundly struck by the Danish "cartoon crisis". I've never seen that sort of behaviour from groups of Christians over any movie or publication. Protests with signs and such, yes. Attempts to ban books, yes. But not rioting and killing and burning things in the street.

Comment :

Here again, a very tiny minority of muslims rioted, nothing that would endanger national security.

the danish cartoons

initially drew non-violent public

protests and when the publishers

further aggravated the situation by

allowing 50 other countries to

publish the cartoons, all of the

deaths happened in predominantly

muslim countries where almost all

deaths were among muslims and no

deaths were reported in western

countries. As usual, the victims

died due to the "bad apples" in the

crowd and the police overreacting

and killing about a 100 muslims.

Riots are not exclusively from muslims but America has experienced riots (example : LA riots ) and worst than riots when American mobs lynched thousands of blacks during the late 19th and through the 20 th century.

People also riot over superficial things like after soccer games when people have been known to have died.

All the muslim protestors were doing is being protestors in western countries, but in muslim countries, there were a few bad apples who did act violently towards the police and the police in muslim countries overreacted and killed muslim civilians and all the deaths were in muslim countries and 99.9% of the deaths were among muslims.

Just as "holocaust denying" speeches are prohibited in Europe, the publishers of the cartoons should have gone into dialog with the leaders of the protestors before further distributing the cartoons

Spirit Wolf, you stated :

Islamics WILL kill you if they don't like what you say. Witness Theo van Gogh, Pim Fortuyn, and those who are in hiding for what they said, like Rushdie. THIS is why this site exists - to wake people up to the threat against our Western culture and freedoms and equalities that Ialam poses, due to its very core tenets.

Dig now?

Comment :

What you are talking about happens in war zones but you will never find American muslims hunting down Rushdie in a non-war zone country like the US.

But in war zones, dissent is frowned upon.

When a foreign power occupies another country or when separatist movements reject the govt., it tends to result in terrorism, as was seen by the torture that many loyalist Americans/British went through by being tarred ( boiling tar being poured on them) because they were seen as loyal to the occupying British forces by the American rebels.

You will save a great of time if you just post,

The-people-who-are-killing-us-are-really-very-nice-and-anyway-its-all-our-fault.

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

For any non-Muslim who may stumble in here, and has waded through the mountains of verbiage poured out by the Mohammedan-in-a-mask, '45ch' (= Chapter 45, that is, Surah 45 of the Quran, perhaps?), here is a news story that has appeared elsewhere on this site.

Read it and then decide who exactly is currently being eaten up by hate.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2009/11/egypt-christians-hide-in-homes-after-muslims-distribute-leaflets-saying-burn-vandalize-and-clean-the.html

Comment :

This criminal act was not sanctioned by the govt. of Egypt and accordingly, the govt. sent its security force to make sure no further hate crimes occurred while the actual murderers were indicted.

Compare what happened in Egypt with the rioting in the US when police officers were not found guilty by a court of law.

A minority of people can easily be agitated when they perceive injustice.

Also people riot over superficial reasons as in soccer riots in which people have died.

ref : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_hooliganism

Indicting an entire community for the criminal behavior of a few is what people like Hitler have done which resulted in more hate crimes being committed against the minority.

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

45ch refuses to recognise that the active rejection of an evil ideology (Islam) - and, therefore, open and trenchant criticism of it and of the evil conduct of those who follow its tenets to the letter, and active opposition to its spread and its followers' attempts to dominate and destroy others - does not necessarily involve 'hatred' of all those imprisoned within it. Anger, yes, at times. But not hate.

Comment :

Hate is when all innocent muslims are being indicted for the crimes of a few and the those who stand up for muslims are called less than human and insulted with name calling.

This is exactly the same tactic used by all haters like Hitler and Stalin who indicted an entire race of people as criminal.

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

45ch claims that I am a hater. For his information, every Friday I pray for two things - 1. the utter and total defeat of the Jihad, and 2. the conversion of Muslims to Christ.

Comment :

Everybody prays for violence to stop and everybody prays for muslims to accept Christ but hate is different.

Hate is when all innocent muslims are being indicted for the crimes of a few and the those who stand up for muslims are called less than human and insulted with name calling.

This is exactly the same tactic used by all haters like Hitler and Stalin who indicted an entire race of people as criminal.

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

It would be interesting to see what 45ch thinks of Fr Zakaria Botros:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2008/09/al-qaeda-declares-coptic-priest-zakaria-botros-one-of-the-most-wanted-infidels-in-the-world.html

Comment :

The fact that Coptic priest Zakaria Botros appears frequently on the Arabic channel al-Hayat shows that not all muslims are against Botros and do allow him to appear on Al-Hayat.

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

'Why are the Radicals so enraged by an elderly Coptic priest from Egypt who is in his 70s? Because Botros is waging an air war against them, and he is winning.'

Comment :

Muslims can change as seen in numerous secular muslim countries that have progressed much faster than during the same time period the US progressed after its independence

Most muslims would say what Botros is saying applies to historical events under circumstances Muhammad found himself in, just as Jews that heeded to the command of genocide in Deut. 20:16 are very different from Jews of today who look at the genocide of non-jews as a historical event, not applicable to today even though Deut 20:16 does not give a time table as to the end of the genocide or the subjugation of non-jews outside the promised land.

Its up to western govts to bring both Botros and muslim leadership into peaceful dialog to resolve any issues and to keep pushing for human rights reforms in all muslim countries.

Remember, western countries have had a 600 year head start on Islam and only in the 60s did all Americans receive full human rights after Jim Crow Laws were abolished.

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

"Using state-of-the art satellite technology to bypass the efforts of Islamic governments to keep the gospel out of their countries,

Comment :

Here is evidence that muslims can change and become christians :

Christians officially make up less than 4 percent of Iran’s population but the number is growing as people join the strong house church movement and accept Jesus Christ through satellite television

ref : http://www.fcnn.tv/start/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5176&Itemid=77

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

"Botros is directly challenging the claims of Muhammad to be a prophet, and the claims of the Qu'ran to be God's word.

"He systematically deconstructs Muhammad's life, story by story, pointing out character flaws and sinful behavior.

"He carefully deconstructs the Qu'ran, verse by verse, citing contradictions and inconsistencies.

"And not only does he explain without apology what he believes is wrong with Islam,

"he goes on to teach Muslims from the Bible why Jesus loves them and why is so ready to forgive them and adopt them into His family, no matter who they are or what they have done."

Now: would 45ch classify Fr Botros as a 'hater'?

Comment :

Botros is not a hater because he is not going after the muslim people but he is going after muslim leadership, some of whom have views that can lead to terrorism.

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

And let us reflect that Fr Botros can present his program because he now lives outside the Islamic world, in a majority-kafir free country. Were he still in Egypt he would simply not be able to do what he does; he would have been murdered long ago, to shut him up.

Comment :

There are millions of muslims living in the same country Botros lives in and those muslims are not hunting Botros down.

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

The resolute maintenance and defence of largely Islam-free societies, in which critique and questioning of Islam and public propagation of non-Islamic faiths are possible without incurring the risk of execution for 'blasphemy', is what *permits* the peaceful preaching of the Christian gospel, via satellite TV and radio whose stations are based in non-Muslim lands, into dar al Islam to open hearts and liberate minds from spiritual slavery.

Comment :

The Center Party of Egypt (Hizb ul-Wasat ), Turkey's ruling AKP Party, Tehreek i Insaf Party of Pakistan and Iran's Defenders of Human Rights Center are four of numerous muslim organizations and muslim reformers who don't hate muslims but want reformation in the muslim world.

Here is a partial list of reformist muslim organizations and reformists :

(1) Ibn Taymiya

(2) According to 18th century records, the Ottoman empire - Islam's ruling power - had not flogged, imprisoned, or passed the death sentence on adulterers for nearly 400 years.

ref : http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2007/sep/28/theislamicreformation

(3) Muslim Canadian congress

(4) Tariq Ramadan

(5) Salman Al-Audah

(6) Shah Waliullah

(7) Aqa Bihbihani

(8) Reformed Shi'sim or Bahai

(9) Ahmadiyya movement

(10) Deoband movement

(11) All Salafi Scholars spoke against present so called jihad and they hold thier opinion as ""No individual has the right to take the law into his own hands on any account. Even the closest of Muhammad's companions never killed a single of his opponents even when invectives were hurled at him day and night in the first thirteen years of his Da'wah at Makkah. Nor did they kill anyone in retaliation when he was pelted with stones at Ta'if"".

ref : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salafi#Current_disagreements_and_division

(12) Fiqh Council of North America

(13) Ali Gomaa, the grand mufti of Egypt and one of the highest-ranking clerics in the Sunni Muslim world

(14) Amina Wadud

(15) Laleh Bakhtiar

(16) Abdullahi Ahmed An-Naim, muslim legal scholar

(17) Mahmoud Mohamed Taha

(18) Javed Ghamidi of muslim satellite TV

(19) Shaykh Waheeduddin Khan, another mainstay of Muslim satellite TV

(20) Amr Khaled

(21) Farhat Hashmi

(22) Indonesian president Bambang

(23) Junoon, a sufi muslim

(24) Akbar Ganji in Iran

(25) REZA ASLAN

(26) IRSHAD MANJI

(27) RIFFAT HASSAN, Ph.D. Professor of Religious Studies and Humanities

(28) KASSIM AHMAD, former president of Malaysian Socialist Party

(29) GATUT ADISOMA, PhD, Indonesia

(30) Layth Saleh al-Shaiban

(31) AISHA Y. MUSA, PhD, Assistant Professor of Islamic Studies

(32) Abdel Moneim Mohammed of the Muslim Brotherhood who wants to reform the Muslim Brotherhood

ref : http://www.boston.com/news/world/africa/articles/2007/10/11/egypts_brotherhood_party_details_platform_akin_to_that_of_iran/

(33) Abdel Moneim Said, head of the leading Al Ahram Center for Strategic and Political Studies

(34) Shirin Ebadi, the Nobel Prize winner

(35) Rahim Jahanbegloo, called "the Iranian Gandhi" for his non-violent approach to protest.

(36) Ayatollah Kazemeini Boroujerdi.

(37) Muhammad Sa'id al-Ashmawi

(38) Muhammad Khalaf-Allah

(39) Nurcholish Madjid of Indonesia

(40) Fazlur Rahman,

(41) The Center Party of Egypt (Hizb ul-Wasat )

(42) Turkey's ruling AKP Party

(43) Tehreek i Insaf Party of Pakistan

(44) Shaykh Yusuf Qaradawi

(45) Ayatollah Muhammad Husain Fadlallah of Lebanon

(46) AbdulHakim Murad

(47) Shaykh Muhammad Afifi al-Akiti

(48) Shaykh Hamza Yusuf

(49) Shaykh Muhammad Sayyed Tantawi

(50) Ayatollah Ali Khamanei of Iran

(51) Seyyed Hossein Nasr, Iranian scholar

(52) Muzammil H. Siddiqui

(53) Shaykh Muhammad Sayyed Tantawi, Grand Imam of Al-Azhar University

(54) Shaykh Muhammad al-Munajjid

(55) Imam Zaid Shakir

(56) Tahir ul Qadri, Pakistani cleric

(57) AbdulHakim Murad, scholar

(58) Muzammil H. Siddiqui

(59) Moiz Amjad, Pakistani scholar

(60) Sheikh Abderrahman al-Sudayes

(61) Shaikh Abdulaziz Al-Ashaikh

(62) Shaykh Abdul-Aziz Aali-Shaykh

(63) Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia and President of the Committee of Senior Scholars

(64) Shaykh Saleh Al-Lehaydaan, Chief Justice Of The Saudi Arabian Judiciary

(65) Shaykh Dr. Saaleh Ibn Ghaanem As-Sadlaan, Pres. Higher Studies Dept. Al-Imaam Muhammd Ibn Saud Islamic University

(66) Khaled Abou El Fadl

(67) Jamil Abdul Razzak Hajoo, of Idriss Mosque, Seattle

(68) Shaykh Abdul Azeez bin Abdullah bin Baaz

(69) Shaykh Muhammad Bin Saalih al Uthaymeen

(70) Hamza Yusuf

(71) Shaykh Salah al-Lahidan, head of the Islamic Judiciary of Saudi Arabia

(72) Imam Siraj Wahhaj

(73) Ali abd al-Raziq

(74) Mustafa Kemal Ataturk

(75) Reza Shah of Iran

(76) Ahmad Kasravi of Iran

(77) Habib Bourguiba of Tunisia

(78) Ya'qub Sarruf of Egypt

(79) Faris Nimr of Egypt

(80) Nicola Haddad of Egypt

(81) Hizb 'Almani or the Wafd party of Egypt

(82) Arab nationalist Baath Party of Syria

(83) Azza Karam

(84) Rabat Al-Mar’a Al`arabiyya (the Alliance for Arab Women)

(85) Faraj Foda

(86) Dr. Muhammad Imara

(87) Shirin Ebadi of Iran

(88) Nazanin Afshin-Jam of Iran

and the list goes on, but I think you get the picture

FredMk_1,

The reactionary forces to American foreign policy is analogous to the reaction to the Vietnam war during the 60s.

When the Vietnam war started, there was little protest but as the war kept going, the protests started and then when the war stopped, the war protesters went back to their daily lives.

Similarly, if the US govt withdraws from muslim lands, you will see, just like the 60s protesters, the terrorists will quickly fade away or concentrate on trying to bring down their own govts while leaving the US alone

The commenter 44ch has said a great many misleading things.

I do not have the time to go into all of them, but here is a sample.

44ch has said -- ". . .you will never find American muslims hunting down Rushdie in a non-war zone country like the US."

This ignores the fact that the government of Iran had an international assassination program that operated in the United States.

"Ali Akbar Tabatabai was shot dead at his home in Maryland, U.S.A., on July 22, 1980. Tabatabai, a well-known figure in diplomatic circles, had served as a former press attaché for the Iranian Embassy in Washington, D.C. After the revolution, he became a vocal critic of Ayatollah Khomeini and made a number of appearances in the U.S. media."
http://www.iranhrdc.org/httpdocs/English/pdfs/Reports/No-Safe-Haven_May08.pdf

44ch has also repeatedly stated that American foreign policy is the root cause of Islamic terrorism. Again, there is reason to doubt that assertion.

Before America had any foreign policy to speak of her ships were siezed by Muslims, and the cargo, and crew held for ransom.

When asked why they were doing this to a country that had done them no harm, the answer was this:

"“. . .it was written in their Koran, that all nations which had not acknowledged the Prophet were sinners, whom it was the right and duty of the faithful to plunder and enslave,” but he also told them that for what they considered outrageous sums of money they could make peace.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_corsairs

44ch has tried to impress us with quanity rather than quality by including an overly long list of supposed Islamic reformers.

Just a cursory look at the list reveals 44ch's true nature.

Starting with the first name, and than picking others at random we find;

Ibn Taymiyyah
is described by Wikipedia as being:

"known for his devotion to jihad, or what he called the best of the forms of voluntary service man can devote to God. The ulema agree in proclaiming it superior to pilgrimage, for men, and to the `umra, as well as to prayer and supererogatory fasts, as is shown in the Book and in the Prophetic Sunnah."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Taymiyyah

Tariq Ramadan, who is Muslim Brotherhood royalty, is included in 44's list.

For some reason Hamza Yusuf is included twice.

Hamza Yusuf is a self admitted extremist, and has failed Daniel Pipes test for a "moderate".
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2004/09/hamza-yusuf-fails-my-test

Yusuf Qaradawi also made the list.

From his Wikipedia page --

"In modern times, Qaradawi has suggested the legitimate use of suicide bombings against enemy combatants if the defending combatants had no other means of self-defense."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yusuf_al-Qaradawi#Democratic_perspective

I will stop with the inclusion of Muhammad Sa'id al-'Ashmawi in 44ch's list.

There is little doubt that the former Egyptian Supreme Court Justice would like to reform Islam, because he lives under 24hr police protection from Muslim Brotherhood "militants".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Sa'id_al-'Ashmawi

Does it sound like Jewish conspiracy theory when 44ch says -- "Germany's victory over both Britain and Russia would have resulted in the prevention of the humiliations experienced by German people due to the Treaty of Versailles which Hitler exploited to his advantage."

From Wikipedia:

"During the 1930s and 1940s, a new ideology appeared which accused “the Jews” of dominating Franklin Roosevelt’s administration, of causing the Great Depression, and of dragging the US into WW2 against a new Germany which deserved but admiration."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_antisemitism_in_the_United_States

44ch has used all sorts of methods to deflect the discussion off topic.

The fact remains that Hassan can talk, and he will say he was inspired by Islam to commit murder.

Although there will be no official backlash, enlisted men are going to ( quite rightly) ask their fellow soldiers, "Is this what you believe?"

If the answer comes in the form of the rhetoric tht we have seen from 44ch, then it is better that Muslims do not serve in the US military, for all our sakes.

livingengine, you stated :

44ch has said -- ". . .you will never find American muslims hunting down Rushdie in a non-war zone country like the US."

This ignores the fact that the government of Iran had an international assassination program that operated in the United States.

Comment :

The fact still remains that Rushdie is alive either because the Iranian govt is not powerful enough to assassinate Rushdie and/or American muslims are not willing to kill Rushdie.

Rushdie must have met numerous muslims in America and none of them wanted or attempted to kill him, which shows that not all muslims are united in purpose as can be seen in about 57 muslim countries in existence which goes to show that muslims are not and were never united in purpose.

livingengine, you stated :

44ch has also repeatedly stated that American foreign policy is the root cause of Islamic terrorism. Again, there is reason to doubt that assertion.

Comment :

The reason that Switzerland is not a target of terrorists shows that US foreign policy has a lot to do with what the CIA calls blowback, the unintended consequences of US foreign policy.

livingengine, you stated :

Before America had any foreign policy to speak of her ships were siezed by Muslims, and the cargo, and crew held for ransom.

When asked why they were doing this to a country that had done them no harm, the answer was this:

"“. . .it was written in their Koran, that all nations which had not acknowledged the Prophet were sinners, whom it was the right and duty of the faithful to plunder and enslave,” but he also told them that for what they considered outrageous sums of money they could make peace.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_corsairs

Comment :

The Barbary pirates were terrorists who were not interested in converting anybody to islam.

Did the Barbary pirates force Americans to convert to islam ? and if they did not, then it was not a religious war but rather piracy for profit.

All countries in past centuries have used religion as an excuse for their wars or crimes and its not surprising that the Barbary pirates would use religion as an excuse to commit their crimes, so both "christian" countries and muslim countries used religion as an excuse for their wars but the end result was profit from war or piracy and has very little to do with religion

livingengine, you stated :

44ch has tried to impress us with quanity rather than quality by including an overly long list of supposed Islamic reformers.

Just a cursory look at the list reveals 44ch's true nature.

Starting with the first name, and than picking others at random we find;

Ibn Taymiyyah
is described by Wikipedia as being:

"known for his devotion to jihad, or what he called the best of the forms of voluntary service man can devote to God. The ulema agree in proclaiming it superior to pilgrimage, for men, and to the `umra, as well as to prayer and supererogatory fasts, as is shown in the Book and in the Prophetic Sunnah."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Taymiyyah

Tariq Ramadan, who is Muslim Brotherhood royalty, is included in 44's list.

For some reason Hamza Yusuf is included twice.

Hamza Yusuf is a self admitted extremist, and has failed Daniel Pipes test for a "moderate".
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2004/09/hamza-yusuf-fails-my-test

Yusuf Qaradawi also made the list.

From his Wikipedia page --

"In modern times, Qaradawi has suggested the legitimate use of suicide bombings against enemy combatants if the defending combatants had no other means of self-defense."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yusuf_al-Qaradawi#Democratic_perspective

I will stop with the inclusion of Muhammad Sa'id al-'Ashmawi in 44ch's list.

There is little doubt that the former Egyptian Supreme Court Justice would like to reform Islam, because he lives under 24hr police protection from Muslim Brotherhood "militants".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Sa'id_al-'Ashmawi

Comment :

Each of the people on the list did at least one important thing to reform the countries they lived in but were they perfect ? off course not.

No reformer in history has been perfect, not even Martin Luther who reformed the Catholic Church.

livingengine, you stated :

Does it sound like Jewish conspiracy theory when 44ch says -- "Germany's victory over both Britain and Russia would have resulted in the prevention of the humiliations experienced by German people due to the Treaty of Versailles which Hitler exploited to his advantage."

From Wikipedia:

"During the 1930s and 1940s, a new ideology appeared which accused “the Jews” of dominating Franklin Roosevelt’s administration, of causing the Great Depression, and of dragging the US into WW2 against a new Germany which deserved but admiration."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_antisemitism_in_the_United_States

Comment :

The US govt's involvement in WW1 resulted in the defeat of Germany which in turn resulted in the rise of Hitler to power and the expansion of communism in Russia and the destruction of a defeated Japan in WW2 resulted in the expansion of communism in Asia and the resulting Cold War that either killed or maimed, disfigured, deformed, blinded or paralyzed for life hundreds of thousands of our beloved soldiers and over a hundred million civilians lost their lives during the Cold War

livingengine, you stated :

44ch has used all sorts of methods to deflect the discussion off topic.

The fact remains that Hassan can talk, and he will say he was inspired by Islam to commit murder.

Although there will be no official backlash, enlisted men are going to ( quite rightly) ask their fellow soldiers, "Is this what you believe?"

If the answer comes in the form of the rhetoric tht we have seen from 44ch, then it is better that Muslims do not serve in the US military, for all our sakes.

Comment :

We need the help of muslims as translators and infiltrating terrorist networks.

Insulting Islam is not going to help matters as it is important to get 1.5 billion muslims on our side so that we can prevent the next terrorist attack and the way to prevent the next terrorist attack is to co-opt the muslim world by drastically changing US foreign policy which is now catered solely to enrich the rich and powerful in the bloated, corrupt, greedy military/industrial pork laden corporate welfare entitlement complex while the so called adults send our young and beloved soldiers to their deaths all in the name of patriotism, honor and duty, during which time, the rich and powerful in the military/industrial complex laugh all the way to the bank.

I can assure you, you are more in danger from your fellow citizens than any muslim terrorist

And you are more in danger from everyday household items or foods that you eat that can have deadly consequences either in the short term or long term.

And you are more in danger of getting cancer because cancer is the result of hate that consumes the soul.

So you would be better off concentrating on the true dangers to your health and safety and not "cooked up dangers from Islam" that only benefit the profit agenda of the bloated, greedy, corrupt military/industrial pork laden corporate welfare entitlement complex where here in the US the complex is looting the US govt of 68 cents of every hard earned tax dollar amounting to over a trillion dollars a year

DDA,

We need the help of muslims in the military as translators and we need their help in infiltrating terrorist networks.

Insulting Islam is not going to help matters as it is important to get 1.5 billion muslims on our side so that we can prevent the next terrorist attack and the way to prevent the next terrorist attack is to co-opt the muslim world by drastically changing US foreign policy which is now catered solely to enrich the rich and powerful in the bloated, corrupt, greedy military/industrial pork laden corporate welfare entitlement complex while the so called adults send our young and beloved soldiers to their deaths all in the name of patriotism, honor and duty, during which time, the rich and powerful in the military/industrial complex laugh all the way to the bank.

I can assure you, you are more in danger from your fellow citizens than any muslim terrorist

And you are more in danger from everyday household items or foods that you eat that can have deadly consequences either in the short term or long term.

And you are more in danger of getting cancer because cancer is the result of hate that consumes the soul.

So you would be better off concentrating on the true dangers to your health and safety and not "cooked up dangers from Islam" that only benefit the profit agenda of the bloated, greedy, corrupt military/industrial pork laden corporate welfare entitlement complex where here in the US the complex is looting the US govt of 68 cents of every hard earned tax dollar amounting to over a trillion dollars a year

44ch -- "We need the help of muslims as translators and infiltrating terrorist networks."

No we don't. We should use Christians instead.

44ch -- ". . .it is important to get 1.5 billion muslims on our side"

No it's not. There are more of us than there are of you, and Muslims have enemies all over the world.

44ch -- "I can assure you, you are more in danger from your fellow citizens than any muslim terrorist"

That depends on where you live, and whether you are a Hindu, Christian, or Jew.

There are 751 "no-go zone" in France, and several in Great Britian.

44ch -- "All countries in past centuries have used religion as an excuse for their wars or crimes and its not surprising that the Barbary pirates would use religion as an excuse to commit their crimes, so both "christian" countries and muslim countries used religion as an excuse for their wars but the end result was profit from war or piracy and has very little to do with religion"

Not so fast mr. 44ch, piracy has a great deal to do with a particular religion - Islam, whose prophet, among other things, was a pirate.

You keep trying to change the subject, and have strayed off topic for the reason that you do not want to criticize Islam, or even examine the role it played in Hassan's decision to murder.

Nice analogy, Fred.

livingengine, you stated :

44ch -- "We need the help of muslims as translators and infiltrating terrorist networks."

No we don't. We should use Christians instead.

Comment :

Are you talking about Arab christians as translators ?

How would a christian manage to infiltrate an Al-Qaeda terrorist network and betray his faith in Christ by performing muslim prayers ?

livingengine, you stated :

44ch -- ". . .it is important to get 1.5 billion muslims on our side"

No it's not. There are more of us than there are of you, and Muslims have enemies all over the world.

Comment :

Christians are not enemies of muslims or hindus etc since Jesus said to love the enemy.

What is the worst that can happen if muslims are on our side ?

I do not know how accurate the movie "slumdog millionaire" is but you are right that muslims have enemies who would kill them as the hindu mob killed muslim women in that movie.

livingengine, you stated :

44ch -- "I can assure you, you are more in danger from your fellow citizens than any muslim terrorist"

That depends on where you live, and whether you are a Hindu, Christian, or Jew.

There are 751 "no-go zone" in France, and several in Great Britian.

Comment :

I am sure you have heard of stories or read the news about your town's murders etc and most of them were done by non-muslims and probably non by Al-Qaeda so you are more in danger from your fellow citizens.

If you were living in a muslim country, there is a good chance you could be a victim of a muslim but at the same time, the murder rates in a place like Saudi Arabia (rank : 61) is much lower than in the US ( rank : 24) and several muslim countries have lower murder rates than the US.

In fact, the countries with the most murder rates, the top 12 are non-muslim.

ref : http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

ref : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

livingengine, you stated :

44ch -- "All countries in past centuries have used religion as an excuse for their wars or crimes and its not surprising that the Barbary pirates would use religion as an excuse to commit their crimes, so both "christian" countries and muslim countries used religion as an excuse for their wars but the end result was profit from war or piracy and has very little to do with religion"

Not so fast mr. 44ch, piracy has a great deal to do with a particular religion - Islam, whose prophet, among other things, was a pirate.

Comment :

All ancient religions including Judaism did practice confiscating the properties of the enemy.

Whether piracy is due to a particular religion, the fact is that piracy has been practiced by non-muslims too.

The selling of slaves was common and the practice is not only from muslims.

ref : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery#History_of_slavery_and_the_slave_trade

livingengine, you stated :

You keep trying to change the subject, and have strayed off topic for the reason that you do not want to criticize Islam, or even examine the role it played in Hassan's decision to murder.

Comment :

Do you find any muslims in America from 1776 through 1960s who mass murdered US soldiers on American soil ?

During and after the 1960s when the US govt started arming Israel and being militarily involved in the middle east, I would not be surprised if some American muslims did kill American soldiers, especially when either the US govt collaterally killed muslim children or the US govt supplied weapons that collaterally killed muslim children

Criticizing Islam is not helpful because it does not solve the problem because 1.5 billion muslims are not going to change their religion due to our criticism.

But changing American foreign policy is possible.

What motivated Hassan and Timothy McVeigh is American foreign policy because I can assure you , if the US govt was not in muslim lands and waging war resulting in the collateral killing of muslim children, Hassan would probably not have committed his crime.

Hesperado, you stated :

45ch dumps mountains of factoids in each of his posts. Pick out any one of the factoids and check it out -- it can be a fun game, like where's Waldo.

"According to 18th century records, the Ottoman empire - Islam's ruling power - had not flogged, imprisoned, or passed the death sentence on adulterers for nearly 400 years."

"ref: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2007/sep/28/theislamicreformation "

45ch's "ref" for this preposterous and grandiose claim about the Ottoman Empire is an article by the dubious Ali Eteraz, in which Eteraz merely asserts the claim to be so and offers no evidence, only a tangential remark -- Under the kanun - secular Ottoman imperial law - the highest punishment for adultery had been a fine -- in which the words "highest punishment" are linked to a book available for purchase at Amazon.com, Women in the Medieval Islamic World. No page numbers cited. For such a grandiose claim, this is a shabby and inadequate "ref".

Comment :

Statistics are just that, it points one in the right direction but unless a comprehensive study is done, you are right, all statistics can be found wanting.

What is important to note is that there are reformers and organizations that are interested in reformation in the muslim world and that is a fact.

Now are all these reformers or organizations, perfect ? probably not.

Even Martin Luther who reformed the catholic church , was not perfect.

What we in the west need to do is help the reformers in the muslim world and one way to do that is not make their work harder by having blowback American foreign policies that only instigate by collaterally killing muslim children either through direct collateral actions of the US govt or through indirect collateral actions of dictators or govts backed militarily by the US govt.

DDA,

The Black Knight did not follow Christ's command to be a peacemaker.

In being peacemaker, you will be blessed by God as Jesus said, "blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called children of God "

FredMk_1,

The Black Knight did not follow Christ's command to be a peacemaker.

In being peacemaker, you will be blessed by God as Jesus said, "blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called children of God "

The Black Knight also did not use tu quoque, straw men, and false equivalencies.

Well said, mate.

As far as I am concerned, whenever I hear 45ch - who is a Mohammedan and who, therefore, is taught to *despise* Christian scripture and to *despise* Christians as practitioners of the worst sin of all, 'shirk', because of their worship of Jesus as Son of God - quoting Christian Scripture at us to tell us to be 'peacemakers' (i.e. to present NO resistance either verbal or physical to the Muslim drive to turn the world into a global theocratic gulag), all I hear is a voice hissing 'Submit!' 'Submit! Shut up, bow down and submit to us!'

'Peacemaker' in *his* vocabulary = DHIMMI - someone who quietly accepts subhuman/ animal status in order to remain (temporarily) alive at the sufferance of the Muslim Uebermenschen, until and unless they decide they feel like killing him.

DDA --

I want to thank you for all your outstanding comments, and that I have your back here at JW.

45ch

I know there are no jokes in islam so I need to explain that The Black Knight did not actually exist - ever. He was just a character in a movie making fun of a Christian legend. It was not really King Arthur either and he did not really cut the other fellows arms and legs off. They were just two guys dressed up as knights for a comedy sketch.

I was saying you are like the Black Knight character (who I say again was NOT a real person) because whatever the King Arthur character said or did, he (The Black Knight) refused to accept how ridiculous his position was.

However that you have not grasped these points explains why you can carry on so long and so often writing historical, political and possibly theological nonsense.

livingengine, you stated :

The Black Knight also did not use tu quoque, straw men, and false equivalencies.

Comment :

The Black Knight represents violence and violence for any reason is wrong unless its purely for self defense.

There are many movies where the hero is actually protecting people and not creating collateral damage or injuries but that is not the case with the Black Knight

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :
Well said, mate.

As far as I am concerned, whenever I hear 45ch - who is a Mohammedan and who, therefore, is taught to *despise* Christian scripture and to *despise* Christians as practitioners of the worst sin of all, 'shirk', because of their worship of Jesus as Son of God - quoting Christian Scripture at us

Comment :

I personally do not know of any muslim who despises christian scripture.

If you met muslims in your life, I am sure that most of them would not despise christian scripture.

Many muslims understand that the designation of Jesus as the Son of God is not that God had a wife and then had a son but rather a spiritual designation, similarly to people in church calling you sister.

Jesus never said to worship Him but in the Lord's prayer, He said to worship God the Father but we know that in worshiping God the Father, we also worship God the Son.

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

to tell us to be 'peacemakers' (i.e. to present NO resistance either verbal or physical to the Muslim drive to turn the world into a global theocratic gulag),

Comment :

Muslims can never turn the world into a global theocracy because almost all muslims are not working towards that goal as can be seen in the existence of numerous secular muslim countries which goes to show that muslims have differing agendas and goals and none of them are united in the purpose of a global theocracy and even at the height of islamic power, they were not able to conquer the world or even stay united as the islamic empire broke up continuously throughout history and the result today is the presence of 57 or so muslim countries

The Romans were just as bad as the worst terrorists you will never encounter in your lifetime and yet Jesus said to

(1) love the enemy

(2) Pray for those who persecute you

(3) If somebody slaps you, turn the other cheek

(4) Forgive, not once but again and again

(5) Be a peacemaker and you will be called a child of God ( in other words, you will be blessed in this lifetime as a child of God )

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

all I hear is a voice hissing 'Submit!' 'Submit! Shut up, bow down and submit to us!'

Comment :

Yes, the early christians through the guidance of the Holy Spirit did submit to the terrorist Romans even when the terrorist Romans were hunting them down and torturing them.

Why is it that the Holy Spirit, sent by the Son of God/God the Father, guided the early christians to submit to horrendous persecution ?

Could it be because that was the only the only way to win the hearts of the pagan Romans and non-christians ?

Why is it that non-violence is the only way to evangelize ?

Why did the Word clearly state the following :

As it is written:
"For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Amen ( Romans 8:36-39 )

Why the emphasis on not retaliating and nothing can come in between Christ and the persecuted christians ?

How were the poor, defenseless, persecuted christians, who did not retaliate, able to win the hearts of the pagans and the terrorist Romans to the point where Christianity was recognized as the official religion of Rome ?

Why were Christians told by the Holy Spirit not to take revenge or to retaliate ?

Could it be because if non-christians see christians glorifying God in the midst of persecution and torture that those non-christians will see that christians do not derive their power from the gun or sword but derive their power from God so that christians are able to love their enemies without retaliation or revenge ?

It is very easy to rely on the sword or gun for power but in order to have the power to convert people to Christ, a christian should totally rely on God and not any earthly power and that is what the pagans saw in the early Christians; the power to love, the power to evangelize and the power to forgive without relying on any earthly power and so the pagans realized that those christians truly derived their power from God and so the pagans gave their hearts to God and became christians and the persecutions of christians eventually stopped.

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

'Peacemaker' in *his* vocabulary = DHIMMI - someone who quietly accepts subhuman/ animal status in order to remain (temporarily) alive at the sufferance of the Muslim Uebermenschen, until and unless they decide they feel like killing him.

Comment :

Christians were able to win over numerous pagans to Christ through their submission to the terrorist Romans and the way you and I are going to win over muslims to Christ is through love and not the power of the sword or the gun as clearly shown by the christians of the first couple of centuries AD.

This site reminds me of the days when the media was busy discussing Monica Lewinsky's dress while Al-Qaeda was plotting to attack the US.

Instead of complaining about a tiny minority of muslims who will never pose a threat to western civilization, how about discussing the real threats to our security

Here is a partial list :

(1) American foreign policy

(2) poisons in everyday household items that can produce cancer

(3) Govt corruption in spending 68 cents of every tax dollar on the bloated, greedy, wasteful military/industrial pork laden, corporate welfare entitlement complex

(4) gang violence

(5) gun violence

(6) only 2% of imported food being inspected right now

(7) dangerous bridges

(8) Millions of consumers are being made ill, hundreds of thousands hospitalized and thousands are dying each year from preventable food borne illnesses," according to The Center for Science in the Public Interest. "Unfortunately, the FDA is saddled with outdated laws, and lacks the authority, tools and resources to fight unsafe food."

I am prosperous in my life because I have been blessed by God in being a peacemaker.

So be a peacemaker, and you will be blessed and no terrible thing will befall you because hate is like a cancer that can consume your soul and that is one reason people get cancer because their hate consumes them and they are vulnerable to all kinds of deadly diseases.

livingengine, you stated :

DDA --

I want to thank you for all your outstanding comments, and that I have your back here at JW.

Comment :

You and DDA are united in your goals but you will find that that kind of unity does not exist in the muslim world and that is why there will never be a global theocracy.

Muslims can never turn the world into a global theocracy because almost all muslims are not working towards that goal as can be seen in the existence of numerous secular muslim countries which goes to show that muslims have differing agendas and goals and none of them are united in the purpose of a global theocracy and even at the height of islamic power, they were not able to conquer the world or even stay united as the islamic empire broke up continuously throughout history and the result today is the presence of 57 or so muslim countries.

livingengine, you stated :

The riots are believed to have been "orchestrated by ganglord Dawood Ibrahim and his D-Company syndicate, in which 250 people died."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombay_riots

Comment :

So according to the movie, muslim women and children were the victims of the hindu mob ?

So the hindu mob was collectively punishing all muslims for the acts of Dawood Ibrahim ?

livingengine, you stated :

Yes, Muslims are making enemies all over the world.

Comment :

There is no evidence that muslims are making enemies all over the world, just as not everyone in the world hates the US govt's foreign policy.

You will find numerous christians, jews and muslims living in peace in muslim countries but communal tensions do rise once in a while, just as the riots in LA showed that blacks and whites do not always get along due to perceived injustice.

livingengine, you stated :

It is time to stop the denying, and start participating in a solution to violent jihad, or reap the whirlwind.

Comment :

One of the ways to stop violent jihad is co-opt all the muslims in the world and put the leaders on the CIA payroll while going after terrorists through our rendition program to prevent truly dangerous individuals from acquiring power.

Also, in order to further push for reforms in the muslim world, what we in the west need to do is help the muslim reformers in the muslim world and one way to do that is not make their work harder by having blowback American foreign policies that only instigate by collaterally killing muslim children either through direct collateral actions of the US govt or through indirect collateral actions of dictators or govts backed militarily by the US govt.

FredMk_1, you stated :
45ch

I know there are no jokes in islam so I need to explain that The Black Knight did not actually exist - ever.

Comment :

I knew that was a movie but my point is that the movie should not show violence unless its purely for self defense and there was no indication that the black knight was acting in self defense but rather inviting violence into his life through his belligerent stance

Joking about violence , even in a movie, is not conducive for the advance of humanity or as a teaching tool for children.

Violence, especially violence that is not carried out as self defense, should never be a teaching tool for anybody, especially children.

Yes, I was raised on toy soldiers and cowboys and indians but parents were ignorant those days by letting their children play with war toys or seeing movies glorifying violence or even these days parents let their kids play violent video games

FredMk_1, you stated :

He was just a character in a movie making fun of a Christian legend. It was not really King Arthur either and he did not really cut the other fellows arms and legs off. They were just two guys dressed up as knights for a comedy sketch.

Comment :

A violent character in a movie.

There are many movies that show the hero actually defending people and not creating collateral injuries or death but the Black Knight is not one of those heroes.

Showing movies, cartoons or video games that just glorify violence or depict violence that has nothing to do with self defense or showing movies with blood and gore is not helpful in the development of a peaceful society or the development of our children

FredMk_1, you stated :

I was saying you are like the Black Knight character (who I say again was NOT a real person) because whatever the King Arthur character said or did, he (The Black Knight) refused to accept how ridiculous his position was.

Comment :

But showing gore and bloody violence is not a good teaching tool.

To prove your point, you could have used a movie that did not have violence, blood or gore in it.

There are too many movies, cartoons and video games that show too much violence and gore and they should never be used as a teaching tool or lesson for anybody, especially children.

FredMk_1, you stated :

However that you have not grasped these points explains why you can carry on so long and so often writing historical, political and possibly theological nonsense.

Comment :

Here are my main points in the discussions at JW :

The threat from Al-Qaida only became real when the US govt decided to interfere violently in the middle east, starting with the gulf war in the 90s.

The threat from the Taliban only became real when the US govt decided to start an unnecessary war with Afghanistan in 2001 when intelligent negotiations could have resulted in the apprehension of Osama bin Laden.

But the US govt is not interested in intelligent negotiations because war benefits its supporters in the bloated, wasteful, greedy, corrupt military/industrial pork laden corporate welfare entitlement complex who benefit during war through no-bid contracts

the US govt is corrupt because of war mongering chicken hawk politicians and their profit driven supporters in the greedy, corrupt, wasteful, bloated military/industrial pork laden corporate welfare entitlement complex that has got hundreds of trillions of dollars of hard earned taxpayers money over the decades, all in the name of patriotism.

As Samuel Johnson said in 1775, "patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel".

The instigation policies of the US govt is the same scenario repeated over and over again : which results in directing hundreds of billions of dollars of hard earned taxpayers' money to the bloated, wasteful military/industrial complex, instead of directing those dollars to improve the lives of the average citizen: Doing that, not only destroys lives but does not keep the average American safer and so,

History always repeats itself ( and our organization is not going to let it repeat ) resulting in the death of thousands of innocent children, all in the name of freedom.

When the US govt is spending over a trillion dollars every year on the bloated, corrupt, greedy military/industrial pork laden, corporate welfare entitlement complex, off course diplomacy takes a back seat and every problem has a major military component to it.

All the arguments here are part of the project to create a third party in order to break the monopoly of the democrats/republicans in govt and improve the health, security, well being and standard of living of the average American

This site reminds me of the days when the media was busy discussing Monica Lewinsky's dress while Al-Qaeda was plotting to attack the US.

Instead of complaining about a tiny minority of muslims who will never pose a threat to western civilization, how about discussing the real threats to our security

Here is a partial list :

(1) American foreign policy

(2) poisons in everyday household items that can produce cancer

(3) Govt corruption in spending 68 cents of every tax dollar on the bloated, greedy, wasteful military/industrial pork laden, corporate welfare entitlement complex

(4) gang violence

(5) gun violence

(6) only 2% of imported food being inspected right now

(7) dangerous bridges

(8) Millions of consumers are being made ill, hundreds of thousands hospitalized and thousands are dying each year from preventable food borne illnesses," according to The Center for Science in the Public Interest. "Unfortunately, the FDA is saddled with outdated laws, and lacks the authority, tools and resources to fight unsafe food."

I am prosperous in my life because I have been blessed by God in being a peacemaker.

So be a peacemaker, and you will be blessed and no terrible thing will befall you because hate is like a cancer that can consume your soul and that is one reason people get cancer because their hate consumes them and they are vulnerable to all kinds of deadly diseases.

Hesperado, you stated :

Another cherry plucked from the obsessive-compulsive cornucopia of 45ch's posts:

He quoted dumbledoresarmy, who wrote:

"45ch - who is a Mohammedan and who, therefore, is taught to *despise* Christian scripture and to *despise* Christians as practitioners of the worst sin of all, 'shirk', because of their worship of Jesus as Son of God..."

and he, 45ch, in his response

1) cleverly redefined Christian scripture as Islamic -- i.e., as supporting the Islamic view of Jesus -- and thus, and only thus, could with disarmingly disingenuous sincerity claim that Muslims do not in fact despise Christian scripture;

Comment :

If you do meet any muslims in your life, you will find that almost all muslims do not depise christian scripture.

I am sure you will find a tiny minority of "christians" despising muslims and I am sure you will find a tiny minority of muslims despising christian scripture but that is the exception to the rule.

Yes, there are muslims who disagree with christian scripture and there are christians who disagree with muslim texts, but disagreement does not mean despising or hating.

There is no hate between muslims and christians.

Here is a video of an American who says Saudi muslims are a joy to be with :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfNrGXSX7Xc&NR=1

Hesperado, you stated :

then

2) he completely, and again cleverly, ignored the crucial corollary in dumbledoresarmy's comment: that Muslims despise Christians as Mushrikoon -- practitioners of Shirk -- in their elevation of one of Allah's messengers, Isa, into God Himself as Son, one of the Holy Trinity who is divine.

Comment :

Yes, Jesus is divine, the Word of God, the Logos and no, muslims do not hate or despise christians.

If you visited a majority muslim country, like Malaysia, you will see the hospitality of muslims towards non-muslims.

Here is the same American in Egypt who says muslims are a welcoming people :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AS_hRtksgwE

Hesperado, you stated :

45ch knows that this is the worst crime in the world, worse than murder, and that Christians are hated by Allah, and by Mohammed, for persisting in so perversely and wickedly twisting the Guidance of Islam to the Truth.

Comment :

You will find muslims disagreeing with Christians but no muslim will say its a crime to believe in Jesus as God.

Its not a crime to believe that Jesus is God or Jesus is the Son of God or that Jesus died and rose again from the dead.

The muslims who believe that is a crime are a very tiny minority.

Hesperado, you stated :

But 45ch cannot be honest with us, because his agenda is to hide the Jihad of the Sword behind the Jihad of the Pen.

Comment :

Jihad of the Pen ?

As long as it does not end up killing people, I have no objections against the jihad of the pen.

Even Osama Bin Laden has never said that he hates christians but he does hate the foreign policies of the US govt.

I can assure you, you are more in danger from your fellow citizens than any muslim terrorist

And you are more in danger from everyday household items or foods that you eat that can have deadly consequences either in the short term or long term.

And you are more in danger of getting cancer because cancer is the result of hate that consumes the soul.

So you would be better off concentrating on the true dangers to your health and safety and not "cooked up dangers from Islam" that only benefit the profit agenda of the bloated, greedy, corrupt military/industrial pork laden corporate welfare entitlement complex where here in the US the complex is looting the US govt of 68 cents of every hard earned tax dollar amounting to over a trillion dollars a year

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

NOW, here is the reality check: Tawfiq Hamid, raised a Muslim in 'moderate' Egypt, in an article he wrote in 2008, describing the films he watched *in secondary school*, that is, at the behest and under the aegis of the Egyptian government.

"In secondary school I watched films about the early Islamic conquest. These films promoted the notion that "true" Muslims were devoted to aggressive jihad."

I haven't heard lately of any non-Muslim governments requiring all secondary students to watch, say, 'Khartoum'.

Comment :

True muslims were devoted to aggressive jihad, similar to the "aggressive jihad" of the US govt against the native Americans and the "aggressive jihad" of the Australian govt against the aborigines ?

All acts of violence, whether it be by islamic armies across the middle east, or the imperial conquests of the US govt across the American continent and beyond are wrong and evil.

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

And shall we remind 45ch about the surreal bloodthirstiness of Hamas kiddieTV, and about the production and circulation of videos of beheadings of non-Muslims, by Muslims ecstatically chanting allahu akhbar as they saw off heads with big knives.

Comment :

Terrorism and murder is wrong and evil, carried out by criminals and there are criminals in every religion.

If you were in a war zone and you see your family murdered by rebels or collaterally killed by the occupying force, knowing that you do not compromise with injustice , what would you do ?

When a foreign power occupies another country or when separatist movements reject the govt., it tends to result in terrorism, as was seen by the torture that many loyalist Americans/British went through by being tarred ( boiling tar being poured on them) because they were seen as loyal to the occupying British forces by the American rebels.

Another form of terrorism was the killing of british troops by the American rebels, after the British troops had surrendered.

ref : http://home.golden.net/~marg/bansite/banecdotes/96quarter.html

Lynchings were ordered by American Patriot Judge Charles Lynch on the terrorized American loyalists who were loyal to the British Crown.

So terrorism can be the result of being in a war zone and its either terrorism from the occupying force through collateral actions or the terrorism of the rebels against those loyal to the occupying force.

The fact that most American loyalists who were loyal to Britain fled the US, shows the terror they faced, not only from being tarred or properties confiscated but being lynched to death.

ref : http://www.redcoat.me.uk/

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

45ch condemns *any* representation of violence and war in the fiction of non-Muslims, whilst carefully ignoring the popularity, among far too many Muslims, of hideous real-life footage of Muslims sadistically murdering helpless hog-tied non-Muslim captives.

Comment :

As I said before, there are criminals in every religion and the solution is simple .

One of the ways to stop violent jihad is co-opt all the muslims in the world and put the leaders on the CIA payroll while going after terrorists through our rendition program to prevent truly dangerous individuals from acquiring power.

Also, in order to further push for reforms in the muslim world, what we in the west need to do is help the muslim reformers in the muslim world and one way to do that is not make their work harder by having blowback American foreign policies that only instigate by collaterally killing muslim children either through direct collateral actions of the US govt or through indirect collateral actions of dictators or govts backed militarily by the US govt.

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

So: whenever s/he accuses people here of being 'eaten up with hate', 45ch is merely repeating his/ her Islamic catechism. The Quran says non-Muslims qua non-Muslims are haters; we here are openly and proudly non-Muslims; ergo, we are haters!

Comment :

Almost all christians are not haters but when a tiny minority call dissenters names or supporters of muslims are called less than human,than that is hate.

If you want to win the hearts of muslims to Christ, you have to show them love and not hate and the way to show them love is not criticize their religion but show them how the love of Christ will set them free.

The Word states : Do everything in love ( 1 Cor. 16:14 )

So in your life, if you find yourself doing something out of hate, just stop and pray that the hate goes away and you will be blessed in your life and you will ward of any terrible disease because hate consumes the soul, the life giving energy.

I am prosperous in my life because I am a peacemaker, as Jesus said, "blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called children of God" and as a child of God, I have been blessed by God.

You can also receive God's blessings in your life if you are a peacemaker and encourage others to be peacemakers too.

No matter what other people do to you, everything is in God's hands and He will take care of you and even if you have to suffer for your faith in Christ, God will reward you either in this life or the next according to His will, as the Word states :

And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written:

"For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.

For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Amen !!! ( Romans 8 : 28-38 )

It is easy to hate and its easy to rely on a gun for protection but it takes long hours of prayer to rely totally on God for your protection and to love your enemies but it can be done and the power you receive from God is beyond all human understanding but it can happen in your life.

dumbledoresarmy, you stated :

Nonie Darwish, in a chapter of her book 'Cruel and Usual Punishment',

On p 156 Nonie adds, [after having described Mohammed as one who regularly cursed his perceived enemies] 'Is it any wonder that cursing has become a tradition and a common phenomenon in mosques and in Muslim society as a whole?

Comment ;

Even Nonie Darwish does not hate muslims and is affiliated with a site of muslims who support her :

here is a quote from a site affiliated with Nonie Darwish :

"Islam is perfect, Muslims are not."

http://arabsforisrael.blogspot.com/