Franklin Delano Roosevelt, December 8, 1941:
No matter how long it may take us to overcome this premeditated invasion, the American people, in their righteous might, will win through to absolute victory.I believe that I interpret the will of the Congress and of the people when I assert that we will not only defend ourselves to the uttermost but will make it very certain that this form of treachery shall never again endanger us.
Hostilities exist. There is no blinking at the fact that our people, our territory and our interests are in grave danger.
With confidence in our armed forces, with the unbounding determination of our people, we will gain the inevitable triumph. So help us God.
"Hostilities exist. There is no blinking at the fact that our people, our territory and our interests are in grave danger." Of course, we live in a different age. Now the learned analysts know that the way to repel aggression is to pretend that hostilities do not exist. To win hearts and minds. To build bridges. To proclaim the problem much smaller and more manageable than it is.
Meanwhile, however, the jihadis fight on.
Hot Air has a good explanation of how the leftbots who run things think and why.
Teleology.
Hostilities exist. There is no blinking at the fact that our people, our territory and our interests are in grave danger.
Ironic that these words fell from the lips of the very man who gave Marxism its foothold in America, a grip that has been steadily expanded since.
*** 92:8 ***
And it is troubling that the Marxists in all their forms (globo-socialist, multi-culturalist, environmentalist) exhibit a natural affinity for Moslems. Give 'em enough rope, the communists sneered. Well give 'em enough rope and some Moslems to boot to eagerly help fit the rope around our collective neck.
*** 66:2 ***
A corrupt Supreme Court is this country's worst nightmare, and that's what we've got. There will be no heroic naval battles in this war, just squalid legal battles, starting with the KSM circus trial coming up in Fun City.
We have a tendency to idealize the past, as if somehow people were different then, different before December 7, 1941, than they are now. However, the US House of Reps passed selective service (the draft)by only one vote in August 1941. (If memory serves me correctly, the selective-service bill was in the senate, being debated, right up to pearl Harbor.)
Charles Lindbergh, the majority of Americans, including Senator Vandenberg and the GOP, and most Democrats, utterly opposed any military build-up that would even remotely imply that America might contemplate war against a Nazi and a "Hakko Ichiu" motivated Japan. Americans, until December 7, 1941, were in a dream-land about the danger abroad, as Japan raped China, as the Nazis invaded Russia and approached Moscow.
Pearl Harbor only changed public perception re reality so that even the German-American-Bund (the CAIR of its era) slinked away forever, never again to play its large role on the stage.
The war in Asia had been raging since 1931, and in Europe from 1939, but still, in early 1942, most Americans were more interested in the baseball standings than the Jihad of that time.
1942 was a dark year in which the Axis came very close to winning the world because of American indifference to the Nazi and Japanese "Hakko Isnieu" Jihad. Things are not different now. It's going to take something more than 911 to wake America to the peril.
However, once the "sleeping giant" (as Yamamoto called America) wakes up-Jihad may may well end as Japan's "Hakko Ichiu" ended. "The more things change, the more they stay the same."
Not only have we changed, but the nature of our enemy has changed.
As treacherous as imperial Japan was, at least they targeted military assets, while jihadists target civilians, as in 9/11 or the Mumbai attacks.
Our enemies today are more troubling because they have zero honor.
"As treacherous as imperial Japan was, at least they targeted military assets, while jihadists target civilians, as in 9/11 or the Mumbai attacks."
That's not true. Read Iris Chang's The Rape of Nanjing. The Japanese routinely butchered civilians. For them it was a "Holy War" and non-Japanese were a kind of "not innocent" cattle, or at best a Dhimmi to be exploited.
"Hakko Ichiu" came to its end on August 6 and August 9 1945. But it targeted civilians-big time.
We don't think of General MacArthur as a religious reformer, but he was that in the occupation. He ended Hakko Ichiu once and for all.
In any case, the Japanese targeted civilians in their Holy War. (I think, if memory serves me, they killed 300,000 civilians just in Nanking. Most were beheaded. They raped the Chinese women everwhere there and elsewhere in China. It was "Holy War".)
http://erud-awakening.blogspot.com/2009/09/righteous-nazi.html
"1942 was a dark year in which the Axis came very close to winning the world because of American indifference to the Nazi and Japanese "Hakko Isnieu" Jihad. Things are not different now."
While Frank has a point, I think it's an exaggeration. Once America was galvanized, America rallied appropriately -- unlike America post-9/11 (which was a worse attack than Pearl Harbor, not hitting some distant outpost but striking into the very socioeconomic nerve center of the USA, downtown New York City, as well as the political capital, the Pentagon in Washington, D.C., and killing more Americans as well).
A significant part of that appropriate response back in the '40s -- once America woke from its nappy time -- was the internment of domestic populations deemed rationally to be potential enemies: Japanese-Americans (as well as some German-Americans and Italian-Americans). Though FDR was slightly reluctant to authorize it, he did so nevertheless; and one reason he did so was that most of the American public wanted it. Would most of the American public countenance internment today? Heck, even most Jihad Watchers (let alone most Americans and Westerners at large in the world) I wager have been gassed with PC MC and thus sincerely believe that the internment of Japanese-Americans was a "shameful chapter" in our history!
The U.S. Supreme Court did not at the time, nor have they ever since to this very day, rule that the internment was un-Constitutional.
However, in the intervening half century since that time, a higher Court has come into existence: the Supreme Court of Political Correctness, which has more power than a mere legal court does, because it infiltrates into the hearts and minds of people through a sociocultural process of a shift in worldview, so that they sincerely believe that its precepts and givens are good things.
There is a direct connection between
1) the fact that most Americans today would think that the internment of Japanese-Americans was a "shameful chapter" in our history
and
2) the fact that most Americans continue to be, at best, squeamish about condemning Islam and all Muslims who follow Islam, and at worst think such condemnation is "bigoted".
"Al-Zahrani's roommates say he was dealing with a lot of problems. He expressed being worried about finishing his dissertation on time. He was also no longer on scholarship and didn't have a job.
'I would think it was because of the whole dissertation being rejected. But I cannot confirm it, he had issues with his financials. I don't know what he had against that professor,"'said Luis Pena, a graduate student."
And this is the point. It was personal problems -- his financial proplems, problems with his thesis -- that led him to blame the Nearest Infidel.
I have written about this many times, and here, for example, is an excerpt from in an article posted two years ago:
"Fitzgerald: Anything To Do With Terrorism?"
There has been much discussion lately of whether or not this or that case has anything to do with "terrorism." The Salt Lake mall shooter and the Nashville would-be murderer by taxicab spring immediately to mind. The word "terrorism" may not quite fit if the FBI takes it to mean some kind of organized conspiracy, something done by a group. What should be made clear is that Islam supplies a pre-fabricated mental grid or, to vary the metaphor, a prism through which to view the universe. And on that grid, or through that prism, there is always an Identifiable Enemy, and that Enemy is Always the Infidel.
Feeling bad? Feeling blue? Feeling things aren't going right for you? It happens to all of us. We blame our parents, our siblings, our children, The System, Amerika with a "k," Capitalism, fate, the stars, our serotonin level, our cholesterol level. Even, at times, we may blame ourselves. That's if you are an ordinary Infidel.
What if you are a Muslim? You don't have to blame your parents, your siblings, or anyone or anything else except: the Infidel. And you don't need to be part of Al-Qaeda, or Islamic Jihad, or Jaish-e-Muhammad. You don't even have to have been a faithful attender of a mosque. You can be Intel engineer "Mike" (Muhammad) Hawash, married to an American, with Little-League-attending children, earning $360,000 a year. And when the banality and boredom of life assails you, you can return to that Old-Time Religion, that is to Islam, and start reading, and re-reading, with the effects we all know, the Qur'an. Then you can light out for the territories, in this case those territories being Western China, and thence, you hope, to Afghanistan, in order to kill Americans. Yes, you are technically an "American" yourself, but the categories and the loyalties of the Infidel nation-state mean nothing to you: you are a Muslim, and that is the only Category that counts, Muslim as opposed to Infidel.
I happened to pick the above link quickly from the many google photos of the Rape of Nanjing. But Nanjing was only a part of the grusome picture that was developing all over China in the 1930s. Civilians were sitting ducks for the Japanese.
The US finally slapped an oil embargo on Japan and that led to the fateful rendezvous of America and Japan at Pearl Harbor. However, the US was supporting China ("The flying tigers" etc.) covertly before the attack on December 7, 1941, and was doing everything possible to get the Japanese out of there. In any case, As Iris Chang said, the Japanese behaved as "beasts" in China. (I sometimes think her understanding of what they did in China and Asia caused her to become depressed and take her own life. Her parents witnessed the mass beheadings and rapes in Nanjing.)
The Japanese finally got out of China the hard way, and General MacArthur did some fancy footwork with Shinto and Hirohito to make Japan everybody's Bonzi Buddy. But there are still hard feelings in Asia because of the "Holy War."
"December 7th, a day that will live in infamy"
Our December 7th in this Twenty first century was of course September 11th. But the enemy is different, he does not wear a uniform,he doesn't necessarily have an allegiance to a country,he follows the jihadist teachings of an unchanging ideology, he can be found almost anywhere on the planet. This enemies followers can be found right among us from Dearborn to San Diego, from Minneapolis to Phoenix.His bases of operation are madrasses, and mosques and numerous private encampments from Oregon to California to New York. he has invaded hundreds of our University campuses from Irvine California to Princeton and Columbia.
And yet we are standing still, paralyzed by the threat of political correctness that is driven by an organization of our own making; trial lawyers of which many have become the best friends and fighting tools of the stealth jihadist among us.
Unthinkable now more than two generations is the internment camps of WWII even though those Japanese Americans where just that, proud Americans who got caught up in the fear of Imperialist Japan against America.
Will it take another Major Hasan? another 9-11 or worse, probably because the sleeping giant took way to many happy pills before he went to sleep.
"...the US House of Reps passed selective service (the draft)by only one vote in August 1941."
My texts say you're off by a year: the Selective Service bill passed Congress in August, 1940, became law in September, and the first lottery drawing was in late October.
I'm with you, Hesperado. Internment of the Japanese during WW2 was NOT shameful,and ALL Muslims are dangerous (unless on the way out, the ones with brains and courage.)
"And yet we are standing still, paralyzed by the threat of political correctness that is driven by an organization of our own making; trial lawyers of which many have become the best friends and fighting tools of the stealth jihadist among us."
You make a powerful point.
There are differences in the perception of similar things such as Jihad and Hakko ichiu in history. The difference now is PC.
But that will change fast after we get hit with a terror attack that makes 911 look like peanuts. Then you will see the kind of rage that closed a ring on the Nazis and Japan, which demanded unconditional surrender, the denazification of Germany and "religious" reform in Japan.
But after that happens in the future, over time everybody will forget, some new PC crowd will then arise to teach fairy-tail history, a new "Holy War" will be launched somewhere, and ignored, a future Jihad Watch will be poo-pooed, and we will do the deja-vous-thing-all-over-again.
Netanyahu at the UN noted the "unteachability" of man. They walked out on him as they walked out on Churchill.
Class dismissed again and again and again....
You've argued your point well, Hesperado. Even assuming that internment of Japanese-Americans was not necessary, a polity that wishes to survive must not assume the best of potential enemies but the worst and act accordingly (within rational and humane limits of course; hysteria should never be paramount). Later, amends can be made for wrongs that are dwarfed by the exigencies of a particular present.
PC/MC nonsense would now have us assume that unless certainty exists of harm from a particular group (and perhaps even not then for the real loons out there in places like academia, the Left Coast and the Upper Left side in Manhattan), no action against that group should be taken. This is suicide disguised as enlightenment. But, sadly, it's the reality of our times. And contemplate for a moment if we had had an Obama type as President when Pearl Harbor was attacked. Disturbing, no?
With each passing month I more and more see Obama as the most influential fool in American history. He gets almost nothing right and he has too big of an ego to realize he's capable of massive errors and possessed of many terrible ideas. Not good.
To me what is the most agregious about our failure to put every Muslim in an internment camp is the fact that we allow them to enter into our military. We do this knowing that Imans around the country and throughout the world are telling their minions that they may not serve in the Army of the infadel unless it is to collect information which is then provided to the jihadists. I mean have we lost our minds by allowing this? I'm not saying we should be putting in all Muslim in internment camps. But I am saying we have to be out of our minds to allow them to serve in our military unless they wish to denounce their so called faith.
This is the difference between the American leftists and progressives of the past and those of today.
The meddling statist creeps of FDR's time still respected America.
Today they hate America, regard America with contempt and are doing their level best to dismantle it.
Yes, Frank, I've read "The Rape of Nanking" several years ago.
Anyone who thinks the Japanese did not commit atrocities against Chinese civilians, including against Chinese females, needs a reality check.
The photos contained in the book are horrifying. Take a look at them if you see the book. Never mind, you don't want to.
Frank, have you read John Rabe's diaries - "The good Man of Nanking" who was a Nazi?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Good_Man_of_Nanking
Joe,
America will be safer if the US govt ceases to be a military power.
"Today they hate America, regard America with contempt and are doing their level best to dismantle it."
Hummm, who can this be refering to?
The Japanese also, prior to WW2, massacred hundreds of thousands of innocent Filipinos. And ilk like 45ch thinks the Japanese were the victims of WW2!
I'm not ignoring or excusing Japanese war butchery. What I'm saying is that when they attacked us in Hawaii, they chose military targets. Excluding the Pentagon, the 9/11 hijackers chose civilian targets.
My point is that Islam makes no civil-military distinction. Either your a believer, or an unbeliever to be slain.
"The US finally slapped an oil embargo on Japan and that led to the fateful rendezvous of America and Japan at Pearl Harbor."
Nice try frank but you didn't tell the whole story.
The naval strike was intended to neutralize the U.S. Pacific Fleet, and hence protect Japan's advance into Malaya and the Dutch East Indies, where Japan sought access to natural resources such as oil and rubber. Both the U.S. and Japan held long-standing contingency plans for war in the Pacific which were continuously updated as tensions between the two countries steadily increased during the 1930s, with the Japanese expanding into Manchuria and mainland China. Japan spent considerable effort trying to isolate China and achieve sufficient resource independence to attain victory on the mainland; the "Southern Operation" was designed to assist these efforts.
In 1940, following Japan's invasion of French Indochina and under the authority granted by the Export Control Act, the United States halted shipments of airplanes, parts, machine tools, and aviation gasoline, which was perceived by Japan as an unfriendly act.The U.S. did not stop oil exports to Japan at that time in part because prevailing sentiment in Washington was that such an action would be an extreme step, given Japanese dependence on U.S. oil, and likely to be considered a provocation by Japan.
Japanese planning staff studied the 1940 British attack on the Italian fleet at Taranto intensively. It was of great use to them when planning their attack on US naval forces in Pearl Harbor.
Following Japanese expansion into French Indochina after the fall of France, the U.S. ceased oil exports to Japan in July 1941, in part because of new American restrictions on domestic oil consumption. President Franklin D. Roosevelt had earlier moved the Pacific Fleet to Hawaii and ordered a military buildup in the Philippines in the hope of discouraging Japanese aggression in the Far East. As the Japanese high command was (mistakenly) certain any attack on the British Southeast Asian colonies would bring the U.S. into the war,a devastating preventive strike appeared to be the only way for Japan to avoid U.S. naval interference. An invasion of the Philippines was also considered to be necessary by Japanese war plans, while for the U.S., reconquest of the islands had been a given of War Plan Orange in the interwar years.
War between Japan and the United States had been a possibility each nation had been aware of (and developed contingency plans for) since the 1920s, though tensions did not begin to grow seriously until Japan's 1931 invasion of Manchuria. Over the next decade, Japan continued to expand into China, leading to all out war in 1937. In 1940, Japan invaded French Indochina in an effort to control supplies reaching China, and as a first step to improve her access to resources in Southeast Asia. This move prompted an American embargo on oil exports to Japan, which in turn caused the Japanese to initiate their planned takeover of oil production in the Dutch East Indies.
It was japanese expansion into "Manchuria" and "French Indochina" which caused the "oil embargo". Stop blaming yourself. If you'll do it with the Japanese you'll do it with the dishonorable muslims.
The overall death toll reached 2,350, including 68 civilians, and 1,178 injured.
Just sayin. Japan didn't ethier. If you believe japan cared one iota about those 68 civilians they purposely kamazied on the pearl harbor base then I have a unicorn to sell you.
Good thing you aren't running this country God only knows how many enemies would descend upon us.
If you believe japan cared one iota about those 68 civilians they purposely kamazied on the pearl harbor base then I have a unicorn to sell you.
Here's a fun factoid. During WW2 the mortality rate among American POWs under German supervision was 4%.
The death rate for POWs in Japanese camps was 27%.
Proxy,
Safety of Americans is very simple.
Once the US govt removed its troops from any country, there has never been any incident where the enemy followed our troops back home.
The enemies are descending upon us because the US govt is causing the collateral deaths of women, children and babies in war zones.
On the day the US govt makes peace with all its enemies is the day when all Americans will be safe and secure, here and abroad.
Dave,
Nobody hates America, not even the terrorists hate America.
What people hate are the adverse foreign policies of the US govt that is creating more danger than safety for the American people.
Who benefits from creating more danger for the American people ?
The bloated, greedy, corrupt, wasteful military/industrial pork laden, corporate welfare, entitlement complex,
and as the rich and powerful in the military/industrial complex "laugh all the way to the bank" , their "old men, war mongering" puppets in the US govt send our young and beloved soldiers deliberately into harm's way all in the name of patriotism, honor and duty,
resulting in the horrifying deaths of our beloved soldiers and the collateral deaths of women, children and babies, the very civilians the US govt claims to free from tyranny.
Hesperado,
Do you really believe the US govt is not corrupt ?
The Japanese were not victims of WW2 unlike the Filipinos who were victims of the US govt's genocidal occupation of the Philippines.
If the Japanese govt embargoed oil to the US, froze US assets, helped the Filipino rebels against the US govt., do you think the US govt will think of the Japanese actions as an act of war ?
Yes, the US govt did instigate the Japanese to attack.
The US govt instigated Japan by freezing Japanese assets, helping the Chinese military against Japan and as the McCollum Memo from US naval intelligence and Stimson, the Secretary of War admitted that the US govt. did everything short of all out war, to instigate the Japanese govt to attack, since only if the Japanese attacked first would that unite the American people for war, since the American people did not want another world war since WW1.
Stimson, the Secretary of War confided in his diary after a meeting of the war cabinet on November 25, 1941 : “The question was how we should maneuver them [the Japanese] into firing the first shot without allowing too much danger to ourselves".
After the Pearl Harbor attack, Stimson confessed : “my first feeling was of relief ... that a crisis had come in a way which would unite all our people."
Here are two examples of the US govt's actions against Japan that did not help matters with Osama Bin Laden :
(1) Osama Bin Laden read about the US govt. fire and atom bombing Japan in 1945 when Japan was already defeated as early as July of 1944 when Tojo resigned and Japan was negotiating concessions to the communists but FDR did not care about communists either killing tens of millions of civilians or that the crushing of Japan enabled communism to expand in Asia resulting in hundreds of thousands of US soldiers either dying horrifying deaths or being maimed, disfigured, deformed, blinded or paralyzed for life during the cold war.
(2) Osama Bin Laden must have read about US/Allied POWs in Japan and hundreds of thousands of Japanese children being terrorized, tortured and burned alive in the US fire and atom bombings of Japan and must have concluded that if the FDR/Truman did not care about the plight of their own US soldiers captive in Japan and the lives of hundreds of thousands of Japanese children, why should Osama bin Laden care about lives when strategic goals were more important.
"The naval strike was intended to neutralize the U.S. Pacific Fleet, and hence protect Japan's advance into Malaya and the Dutch East Indies, where Japan sought access to natural resources such as oil and rubber."
Yes, of course, because of the oil embargo on Japan, you moron. You point out the obvious. Your whole comment is moronic.
Maybe you should discuss the Rape of Nanjing and the "Holy War" (hakko ichiu) launched by Japan on China in 1931 (beginning with Manchuria), all the beheadings, etc. Iris Chang had a deep understanding of what happened in Asia, especially in China, in the ten years before Pearl Harbor. Read her book. The Rape of Najing is a great read.
Frank,
All of Japan's advances outside of China was only after the allies started helping the Chinese military.
Japan's strategy was to acquire as much of the colonial possessions of the Allies in South East Asia, so that the territories acquired could serve as bargaining chips for an eventual peace treaty.
The rape of Nanking ?
Are you saying that when the US govt was committing atrocities in massacring native Americans or instituting the terrorist system of slavery or the genocidal occupation of the Philippines, nations should have got together and liberated the native Americans, the blacks and the Filipinos from the imperial terrorist expansion by the US govt ?
Ladies and gentlemen
in dealing with 45ch it is worth remembering something that a poster here said, four years ago, about what tends to happen when one is arguing - if it can be called that - with Muslims (which is what 45ch is, if he is not a mere Troll of no particular convictions, assuming a persona in order to stir sh*t for the fun of it).
I have checked off all those traits which seem to me to have appeared in 45ch's postings, some of them very frequently.
"The Muslims use the following tactics, in self defense when exposed.
l. The[y] attack the source, the ad hominem [CHECK]
2. they change the subject [CHECK], and if possible try to impugn your character [CHECK - the 'you' being here 1. the USA and 2. more broadly 'the West'] and make you the subject [CHECK], failing that distract, distort, deny [CHECK]
3. They cry hate [CHECK] and try to put the kaffir on a guilt trip [CHECK, IN SPADES]: *they are quick learners, because guilt is an alien concept in Islam* {nota bene - dda: 45ch's favourite ploy seems to be the attempt to put the USA, and indeed all westerners, on a guilt trip], but it is both a defect and humanizing in westerners.
'I get the hate charge thrown at me all of the time, with the expectation I'll go on the defensive and thus change the subject so they can go on the attack.
Doesn't work on me, I'm a quick learner and I've studied Muslims and learn what I needed from them.
4. Lastly, the operating word to describe Muslims is aggressive [CHECK] (like the operating word to describe Judeo Christians is guilt) always expect them to be aggressive and cry persecution and foul, even when they initiate aggression.
The leit motif is that the kafir (like the Israels or Amriki in Iraq) are not supposed to defend themselves [CHECK] when they [Muslims] attack;
*in the Muslim world defense by the kufr is aggression*.
- Posted by: Giaour at May 21, 2005 12:59 AM
Those of you who have jousted, in the last couple of months, with 45ch in his present form or under his previous moniker of 'loveverybody', or who have stood back and watched the exchanges...or who have, in exasperation, scrolled down through his endlessly repetitive and monotonous postings chewing up inches of bandwidth, will recognise that at some time or another, or even all at once, 45ch's postings fit pretty closely the pattern described, four years ago, by 'Giaour'.
DDA,
It is very obvious that almost all govts. in the world are corrupt; whether they are muslim or non-muslim because the so-called wise men who are actually war mongering puppets of the military/industrial complex , send the young and vulnerable ( our beloved soldiers ) deliberately into harm's way all in the name of freedom, patriotism, duty and honor,
as the rich and powerful in the military/industrial complex "laugh all the way to the bank" while our beloved soldiers die horrifying deaths and women, children and babies are collaterally killed all in the name of freeing them from tyranny.
Why are the rich and powerful in the military/industrial complex "laughing all the way to the bank" ? well its because, here in the US, the military/industrial complex is looting the US treasury of over a trillion dollars or 68 cents of every hard earned tax dollar every year and to prevent the US govt from becoming insolvent, the US govt will have to eventually raise taxes dramatically and/or dramatically cut essential services like health care, medical research, pollution controls, food safety inspections, infrastructure maintenance, medicare, social security etc etc
"Are you saying that when the US govt was committing atrocities in massacring native Americans or instituting the terrorist system of slpeoplevery or the genocidal occupation of the Philippines, nations should have got together and liberated the native Americans, the blacks and the Filipinos from the imperial terrorist expansion by the US govt ?"
This is infantile nonsense that shows you have no understanding of history.
There is not one place on the face of the earth that is not occupied by some "indigenous people" who displaced a previous "indigenous people." There is no such thing as an "indigenous people" anywhere. It's a phony-racket attempt to shame others as we hide the blood that drips from our collective hands.
The theme song song of history should be "Istanbul was Constantinople." The problem is in human nature. History is a mirror of the human beast launching "Holy War."
The Aztecs took the land of the Toltecs, the Spanish took their land, the Arabs invaded Spain, the Muslim Turks and others nearly destroyed Hindu India (probably the worst attack of all the constant attacks of one culture upon another culture in history). The beat goes on-everywhere.
The record of humans is everywhere one of bloodshed, self-righteous-Jihad-by-some-other name,rationalizing "dominance"-conquest, and the Dhimmihood status of others, and that is true with Muslim-Arabs, Turks, British, Chinese, Americans, etc. etc. etc.
The Japanese "hakko ichiu" was no different than the current Muslim Jihad in rationalizing dominance-exploitation in china, or the Nazis invading Russia. We all launch our "holy wars." Americans have equal guilt, as do every people on earth, including the "native-Americans"-who were quite busy killing each other.
It's amazing how we humans point fingers at each other when we should be pointing into our mirrors re the cause of all the horrors in history.
"Are you saying that when the US govt was committing atrocities in massacring native Americans or instituting the terrorist system of slpeoplevery or the genocidal occupation of the Philippines, nations should have got together and liberated the native Americans, the blacks and the Filipinos from the imperial terrorist expansion by the US govt ?"
This is infantile nonsense that shows you have no understanding of history.
There is not one place on the face of the earth that is not occupied by some "indigenous people" who displaced a previous "indigenous people." There is no such thing as an "indigenous people" anywhere. It's a phony-racket attempt to shame others as we hide the blood that drips from our collective hands.
The theme song song of history should be "Istanbul was Constantinople." The problem is in human nature. History is a mirror of the human beast launching "Holy War."
The Aztecs took the land of the Toltecs, the Spanish took their land, the Arabs invaded Spain, the Muslim Turks and others nearly destroyed Hindu India (probably the worst attack of all the constant attacks of one culture upon another culture in history). The beat goes on-everywhere.
The record of humans is everywhere one of bloodshed, self-righteous-Jihad-by-some-other name,rationalizing "dominance"-conquest, and the Dhimmihood status of others, and that is true with Muslim-Arabs, Turks, British, Chinese, Americans, etc. etc. etc.
The Japanese "hakko ichiu" was no different than the current Muslim Jihad in rationalizing dominance-exploitation in china, or the Nazis invading Russia. We all launch our "holy wars." Americans have equal guilt, as do every people on earth, including the "native-Americans"-who were quite busy killing each other.
It's amazing how we humans point fingers at each other when we should be pointing into our mirrors re the cause of all the horrors in history.
DDA,
The only way to win over muslims is to show them the love of Christ as Jesus said," love your enemies" and "blessed are the peacemakers".
The early christians won over the terrorist Romans (eventually ) when the early christians showed them the power of God's love, instead of the power of the sword
because the only way to win over anybody is to show them that you rely totally on God's power rather than the power of the sword and in so doing, the early christians were able to over-power the Roman empire, not by the sword, but by God's love through prayer, perseverance, fasting, love and the power filled Words given by the Holy Spirit through the early christians that eventually melted the hearts of the enemy.
And God promised the early christians that no amount of persecution or terrorism from the Romans will ever be able to make the christians deny Christ and God will never leave them, no matter what ,
As the Word states in Romans 8: 28-39 :
"And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love Him, who have been called according to His purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things?
Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?
As it is written:
"For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.
No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all of creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord." Amen !!
Sorry for the double post. Posting here is sometimes like Einstein's "time dilation". Time slows and drags as a post appears suspended. Maybe we are approaching the speed of light on JihadWatch. (Einstein was a funky guy who traveled the universe in his head. I wish we all had his mind.)
Frank, you stated :
There is not one place on the face of the earth that is not occupied by some "indigenous people" who displaced a previous "indigenous people." There is no such thing as an "indigenous people" anywhere.
Comment :
So when Japan occupied parts of China, should the US govt. have intervened when the track record of the imperial expansion of the US govt across the North American continent, across spanish colonies and across the pacific was not much different than the occupation of parts of China by the Japanese govt ?
So, you think relying on God's power rather than the sword would have won over Adolf Hitler? Really, your naivety, as "Frank" has already stated, is, quite simply, pure silliness. Sometimes legitimate force has to be used to displace illegitimate force. You know this or should know it. Also, singling out America for wrongdoing without mentioning the fact that virtually all people have engaged in it (again a la "Frank") is pure propaganda. Grow up.
By the way, the Roman Empire was overpowered by a number of things, including excessive taxation, debasement of the coinage, barbarian invasions, uncertain succession to the emperorship, declining civic duty, defending borders after centuries of expanding them and a whole host of other things, not just the growth of Christianity. Interesting and educational to reflect upon how people with very limited information can be so sure of things.
This ishildish nonsense.
The US is no different than any other nation or empire in history. No different than the Arab empire, China, etc. All have interests and "foreign policies." All create Dhimmis by some name or other.
To answer directly: I think it was in both the interest of China and the US to halt the jihad-by-another-name of the Japanese in China. It was in US interest to stop Hitler. We supported China and England and Russia for the same reasons: self-interest. Ultimately, Japan and the Nazis would have attacked America if China, Russia, and England had fallen.)
(You answer me directly: would you have preferred that outcome? Preferred America not to intervene in China and Europe? conquest by Japan and Nazi Germany?)
----
Nations-states-empires are amoral-every one of them. They all rationalize their "interests" behind a facade of religion or ideology. (Islam is really perfect for that. In fact, Hitler regretted that Islam was not the religion of Nazi Germany. He called Christianity "The Jewish Christ creed with its pity ethics.")
We have "Democracy"-an ideology that justifies our Jihad (Holy War). All empires have some kind of Jihad. That is true of the Arab Empire, American Empire, Chinese Empire, etc.
However, that being said, the US world dominance is probably one of the mildest in history. There are many reasons for that, including our funky political system (two legislatures, a president with a veto) that puts a lot of buffers on our Jihads. We are also a nation that is the result of the greatest mass-migration in history. Most Americans cannot trace their ancestry back before 1880. That's astonishing. That also causes us to look at the world differently, to make our empire different. (Would Saudi Arabia accept a million Somalis into Saudi Arabia? Only in America can that happen.) Somehow, I think, that our immigration history plays a subtle but powerful role in our foreign policy.
----------
The world will fall into chaos if we leave the scene too early. But I think it will anyway. The global economy pipe dream that was supposed to make us all more affluent is going poof. It looks more like a New Dark Age of barbarism, invasions, terror, is on the way, as happened with the Muslim invasions of India, or the Germanic invasions of Europe. It looks like China is making a move on Africa. (They will point fingers at Japan as they kill-starve Africa and move on their resources.)
Breakdowns of political order can quickly bring a Dark Age. The transportation and communication revolutions of the past 100 years could finally bring sudden death to billions of people in the 21st century. Radio is less than a hundred years old, so is nuclear power. We may be on the brink of a New Dark Age, brought about by technology.
Wellington, you stated :
So, you think relying on God's power rather than the sword would have won over Adolf Hitler? Really, your naivety, as "Frank" has already stated, is, quite simply, pure silliness.
Comment :
Winning over Adolf Hitler should have been done by the church while Hitler was growing up but once grown up and once he was planning the massacre on the "night of the long knives", a US rendition "covert" program would have stopped Hitler and saved the lives of tens of millions of people since WW2 could have been prevented with Hitler and his thugs in US custody, but sadly, the US rendition program came too late, only after the attacks on 9/11.
My advice to christians is very different from how I would advise the US govt.
My advice to christians is never to use the sword under any circumstances because even if they die without using the sword, they go to heaven.
My advice to the US govt is never to use force militarily unless the US is under attack and then only for purely self defense, but sadly, the US govt is in the business of instigation so all the attacks faced by the US had been instigated in some way.
Wellington, you stated :
Sometimes legitimate force has to be used to displace illegitimate force. You know this or should know it.
Comment :
I have never come across a situation where an offensive war had to be necessary
Wellington, you stated :
Also, singling out America for wrongdoing without mentioning the fact that virtually all people have engaged in it (again a la "Frank") is pure propaganda. Grow up.
Comment :
I have always said that almost all govts. are corrupt, whether they are muslim or non-muslim but since the US govt is richer than almost all govts. put together, the corruption in the US govt is much more deep and entrenched since corrupt politicians are attracted to the trillions of dollars of hard earned taxpayers money taken in every year; the temptation to use that money for political gain and the temptation to use that money to enrich their supporters in the military/industrial complex is just overwhelming.
Wellington, you stated :
By the way, the Roman Empire was overpowered by a number of things, including excessive taxation, debasement of the coinage, barbarian invasions, uncertain succession to the emperorship, declining civic duty, defending borders after centuries of expanding them and a whole host of other things, not just the growth of Christianity. Interesting and educational to reflect upon how people with very limited information can be so sure of things.
Comment :
I was not talking about Christianity taking over control of the political structure of the Roman empire or helping its decline.
I was talking about christianity over-powering the terrorist Romans, not with the sword but by God's love and so the terrorist Romans eventually gave their hearts to Christ and so eventually christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire.
Frank, you stated :
US world dominance is probably one of the mildest in history.
Comment :
If you look at the history of the US govt,
from its rebellion ,
its treatment of blacks and native Americans,
its imperial conquests of native American nations,
hawaii,
spanish colonies,
its gun boat diplomacy,
its genocidal occupation of the Philippines,
its merciless atom and fire bombing destruction of a defeated Japan
and its blow back policies that spawned WW2, the Cold War, the Middle Eastern Wars, Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the expansion of communism/fascism etc. etc.
and the resulting loss of hundreds of millions of lives and the loss of hundreds of thousands of US soldiers dying horrifying deaths or the hundreds of thousands of US soldiers maimed, deformed, blinded, paralyzed or disfigured for life
and the despair experienced by hundreds of thousands of American families who have their loved ones adversely affected by war, you would have to conclude that the US govt. has not been a blessing to the world,
all because of the power trips of the war mongering chicken hawk politicians and their profit driven supporters in the greedy, corrupt, wasteful, bloated military/industrial pork laden corporate welfare entitlement complex that has got hundreds of trillions of dollars of hard earned taxpayers money over the decades, all in the name of honor, duty, freedom, patriotism and liberty.
As one wise Samuel Johnson said on the evening of April 7, 1775, "patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel".
If any defense contract gets reduced or canceled, you can bet the war profiteering defense contractor and his puppet in the US govt. will rally up his supporters and say its not patriotic to cancel a defense contract.
If the US government makes peace with Iran and co-opts the Ayatollahs as President Reagan co-opted Saddam Hussein, there will be one less enemy in the world, but that will not sit well with the those who want as many enemies as possible in order to keep the fear level high enough so that the American public will not question that 68 cents of every hard earned tax dollar or more than a trillion dollars is going every year to the bloated, greedy, wasteful, corrupt military/industrial pork laden corporate welfare entitlement complex.
The rich and powerful in the military/industrial complex are "laughing all the way to the bank " while the average American has to forgo a better and healthier standard of living due to a trillion dollars or 68 cents of every hard earned tax dollar being squandered every year on projects that have little value with the actual safety or security of the American people.
The yearly trillion dollar looting of hard earned taxpayers' money from the treasury by the military/industrial complex and its puppets in the US govt is giving us neither security or safety as evidenced by 19 hijackers using box-cutters on a half million dollar budget, infiltrating all our trillion dollar defenses and that is one reason the guilt-ridden US govt had to compensate the families of the victims on 9/11.
The entire US govt. is corrupt, especially in the area of "defense" which will eventually make the US govt. insolvent and in order to prevent insolvency the US govt will dramatically increase taxes and/or dramatically cut essential services like oversight, medical research, health care, pollution controls, food inspections etc etc.
Not only is the US govt corrupt, its foreign policies make it dangerous to the safety and security of the American people and all the people outside of America who are adversely affected by US foreign policy.
From the destruction of innocent Japanese cherry blossom trees during World War Two in Washington DC to the presence of US nuclear weapons that "tell" foreign governments that if they kill our children with a nuclear attack, the US government has the right to kill all their children with our nuclear weapons, is a testimony to the similarity between the terrorists and what the US government has at least done in the past in which both the terrorists and the US government have punished or wanted to punish collaterally or otherwise, "trees" and the general population (of innocent men, women, children and babies ) for the evil doings of a few.
Man you are a certified member of the Low-IQ-Club. You really are stupid. End of discussion.
Man, Frank, is right, you are stupid. I will give you just one reply to your many inanities. You fault America for not taking action via a rendition program while Hitler was planning his Night of the Long Knives (June 1934). America didn't know anyting about this until after it happened and, in any case, FDR and America were coping with the Depression. Really, you go out of your way to fault America time and time again. It's ludicrous how much you fault the United States. Let's see here, America is the real cause of WWII because in 1934 we didn't stop Hitler from killing mostly fellow Nazis on the night of June 30th. Yeah, Frank is right. Done here.
Frank
I like your 9.22 pm retort above, to 45ch. That's about all the answer 45ch deserves: he pretends to be a Christian pacifist but I suspect him to be a Mohammedan who thinks he's found a cool jiu-jitsu trick to persuade the 'christian' world to disarm itself and silently submit to the Muslims.
By the way - I well remember when you were a regular poster here, oh, more than a year ago; you always had an interesting take on things. Then you disappeared for a while. Hope you've been well.
Given your posting above about imperialism in general, and the human propensity for evil: ever read Jacques Ellul? You should read 'The Meaning of the City', 'The New Demons', 'The Subversion of Christianity' and 'The Humiliation of the Word'.
To go with those, I commend Charles Williams 'the Descent of the Dove' and 'The Forgiveness of Sins' (very interesting: written in the middle of World War II); and David Bentley Hart, 'Beauty of the Infinite', 'The Doors of the Sea', 'Provocations and Laments' (anthology of essays, book reviews, etc., some very edgy stuff there including some thoughts on Just War which I think you'd find interesting), and 'Atheist Delusions: The Christian Revolution and Its Fashionable Enemies', which has a very challenging and rather counter-intuitive 'take' on the rise of the modern secular state.
The Bible seems to me to take a very dim view of Empire as such - all the way through from the tower of Babel to the plagues of Egypt to the story of Daniel and of his three friends who refused to bow down to the great golden image of King Nebuchadnezzar, and the Revelations passage with its archetypal cry, 'Fallen, fallen is Babylon the Great'.
The distinction I would make between the empires of 'Christian' societies and the imperialism of Islam is this and only this: that to play the game of Empire properly the semichristian societies of Europe had to set to one side, had to suppress or ignore, the example and the teachings of Christ (which always came back to bite them); whereas the Muslim imperialists didn't have to worry, for their imperialism *was* in perfect congruence with the example of Mohammed and the teachings of their 'religion' (which may best be described, indeed, as the Arab National Religion or even as the Arab Imperial Religion).
Christianity makes a piss-poor imperial religion, it has to be seriously distorted to serve the purpose (and no matter how well the imperialist thinks he's succeeded in making use of it, up pop the gadflies like Bartolomeo las Casas and William Wilberforce, or Archbishop Bede Polding and Lancelot Threlkeld in colonial Australia, complaining and denouncing), whereas Islam *is* an imperial religion, custom-made for the purpose. Muslims felt nothing but a glow of righteous glee as they mass murdered, mass enslaved, pillaged and dispossessed, whereas any nominally Christian imperialist, busy breaking every item in the second table of the Ten Words, had to tell himself all kinds of lies in order to suppress the persistent whispering in his heart. (To try to pretend one is repeating the conquest of Canaan, though a nice rhetorical trick and sometimes attempted, doesn't have a real theological leg to stand on).
By the way, and quite offtopic - if you've an interest in stories from the eastern front of World War II, you might like to read Gladys Aylward's memoirs as told to Christine Hunter in 'The Little Woman' (much more down to earth and interesting than either the romanticised biography 'The Small woman' by Alan Burgess, or the even more romanticised and heavily fictionalised film 'Inn of the sixth Happiness'); and "If I Perish" by Esther Ahn Kim.
Aylward describes the Japanese invasion of her part of China, and what subsequently happened all the way through to the communist takeover and the persecutions and killings of Christians by Maoists - some of which she personally witnessed.
Esther Ahn Kim is a Korean Christian and describes the ever-increasing cruelty of Japanese rule in Korea in the 1930s, including attempts to force Korean Christians to bow down en masse to Amataseru the sun goddess of Japan, on pain of imprisonment or even death. Kim, who spoke fluent Japanese, was part of a last-ditch delegation of Korean Christians who travelled to Japan itself with what they believed was a warning from the biblical God: stop what you are doing, or you will be destroyed by fire from heaven.
She describes speaking to a elderly Japanese Christian, a member of the Salvation Army church, and telling him about the Japanese government's vicious persecution of Korean Christians and tyranny in Korea; and then she said, "We [the Christian Koreans] are ready to die...but Japan will also suffer. She will soon be burned up by sulphur fire". And again, to another Japanese, the former general and a former colonial governor of Korea, one Kazunari Ugaki who had been tolerant and just, she dared to say that because of the evil that was being perpetrated - the killings, torturings, persecutions - "God has clearly told me that Japan will be punished and will be burned and destroyed by sulphur rain unless she repents and turns from this course of destruction".
That was in 1939. And besides these two people, she and the party she was with even went all the way to the Diet, to try to convey their warning of urgent and impending danger for Japan if Japan persisted in flagrant evildoing.
Wellington,
Two ways the US govt could have stopped Hitler:
(1) US govt. not getting involved in WW1
(2) US govt. having a covert operation to apprehend Hitler when it became obvious he was planning to murder his opponents or during the time when Hitler and his thugs were in prison for treason.
The US rendition program is in existence today and is intended to stop every terrorist attack around the world, so if the US govt. had a similar program in the early 1900s, the US govt could have prevented the massacre of the "night of the long knives" and apprehended Hitler and his thugs and thus prevented WW2 and prevented democratic Germany into becoming a dictatorship.
The US govt. could have easily stopped Hitler and the expansion of communism if the US govt. never got involved in WW1 but because the US govt. was involved in WW1, WW1 resulted in the defeat of Germany , the expansion of communism since Germany could no longer contain communism from expanding and because of the involvement of the US govt in WW1, a defeated Germany could not mitigate/prevent the advances of either Nazism or Communism or the collapse of the Ottoman Empire and the result of a defeated Germany was WW2, the Cold War and the eventually the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
Without the US govt as a military power; WW2, the Cold War and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict would never have happened since a strong and triumphant Germany would have prevented the rise of Nazism after WW1, dominated the communists during and after WW1, prevented the Ottoman Empire from being defeated in WW1 and thus Germany would have prevented WW2, the Cold War and the Israeli- Palestinian conflict.
So why did the US govt get involved in WW1 ?
The only explanation is the re-election power agendas of war mongering politicians and the profit agenda of the military/industrial complex because war is not all about saving lives but has more to do with power and money as the "old men" politicians send our young and beloved soldiers deliberately into harm's way, all in the name of patriotism, honor, freedom and duty, while the rich and powerful in the military/industrial complex "laugh all the way to the bank" as our beloved soldiers die horrifying deaths and women, children and babies are collaterally killed as the US govt pretends to save them from tyranny.
DDA, you stated :
Christianity makes a *poor imperial religion, it has to be seriously distorted to serve the purpose (and no matter how well the imperialist thinks he's succeeded in making use of it, up pop the gadflies like Bartolomeo las Casas and William Wilberforce, or Archbishop Bede Polding and Lancelot Threlkeld in colonial Australia, complaining and denouncing), whereas Islam *is* an imperial religion, custom-made for the purpose.
Comment :
Christianity was never meant to rule empires because Jesus said to render unto the pedophile, terrorist Roman Emperor and not to rebel against any terrorist govt.
But the problem with most christians is that they conflate the Old Testament and the New Testament and mistake Jesus for a earthly King and warrior.
That is why the "christian" Adolf Hitler mistook Jesus for a warrior, when Adolf said in Mein Kampf:
"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." (end of quote )
Here is an excerpt from the battle hymn of the Republic, quoting not from Christ but from the bible ( Old Testament ) :
Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord;
He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;
He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword;
His truth is marching on. (end of excerpt )
Here is a quote from President Lincoln regarding "christianity" during the civil war :
"The will of God prevails. In great contests each party claims to act in accordance with the will of God. Both may be, and one must be, wrong."
-- September 1862 - Meditation on the Divine Will.
Numerous Presidents have used biblical (old testament ) justification for their violence in wars and empire.
Why were Americans killing each other in the American civil war ? unless they found justification in the bible ( not Jesus, but the bible in the Old Testament )
The American civil war was a war between christians but that does not mean they were killing each other over religion but rather over political ideology, while saying that God was on their side. ( in other words, a mixture of political ideology and religious ideology based on the Old Testament )
It is obvious that both Stalin and Hitler grew up in a christian tradition but off course they could not quote Jesus regarding violence but they had plenty of material in the bible ( the Old Testament )
English historian Simon Sebag Montefiore studied Stalin’s hobbies and personal library, what Stalin liked to read, what kind of marks he left in his books. He found that Stalin liked to quote long quotes from the Bible.
Stalin and Hitler might have left the church, but they had plenty of help from people who were at least christian by name, just as the American revolutionaries were "christians" who tortured by tarring loyalists ( christians), lynched loyalists ( christians ) and confiscated loyalist (christian) properties.
Did they do it in Christ name ? off course not, just as God sometimes punished the Jews, not for being Jews but for what the Jews had done.
So what happened in Christian countries ?
why the "christian" genocides ?
why the inquisitions by the Church ?
why the crusades ?
why the "christian" empires ?
Not based on the pacifism of Christ but based on a mixture of political ideology and religious ideology ( based on the bible, the Old Testament ), just as President Lincoln justified the war against the South, by saying that God was on his side.
I wasn't talking to you, 45ch.
I was talking to Frank.
With every posting you make, you reveal yourself more and more as a Mohammedan in a mask, all the creepier because of it. Oh you're a pacifist alright, but the peace you're peddling is the peace of Islam that is no peace at all.
Don't think I don't see the tell-tale might-have-been that you're hankering after: that if the USA had only stayed out of World War One, the Germans would have won, and the Caliphate would have remained, and Ottoman Muslim Turkey would have remained firmly in possession of...Jerusalem.
And guess what, oh goody! - no Israel, no ultimate independence from Muslim dominion for them wicked nasty Joooz.
*That'*s what sticks in your craw, isn't it, about the way things did in fact turn out? America entered the Great War, Germany lost, and her ally Muslim Turkey lost too, and thus eretz Israel came under non-Muslim authority for the first time since the Crusades; opening the way for the restoration of...a Jewish state.
That which Indro Montanelli regarded as the only good thing that came out of the terrible twentieth century - the restoration of the Jewish state of Israel - is the thing that you want not to have happened.
DDA,
Jesus was pacifist in every sense of the word and so are many orthodox Jews who are pacifists but Zionists cannot follow the pacifism of Christ or that of the orthodox Jews.
Yes, the Ottoman Empire would have had control over Jerusalem if they did not get defeated in WW1 due to the US govt's involvement.
If Germany triumphed in WW1, the Ottoman Empire would have continued to allow Jews to settle in Jerusalem as they did in the 1800s but would have not allowed Zionists to take control of Palestine.
What would Jesus have done with the Ottoman Empire ?
the same thing Jesus did with the terrorist Roman Empire and that is told the Jews to be good citizens under Ottoman or Roman rule.
You are in rare form, DDA.
I am enjoying your work, and wanted to say I had been thinking the same thing about this commenter, who Hugh has called a "propangandist".
I find his itching to argue about Palestine very suspicious.
In a subsequent post to this one, about a death threat Robert Spencer recieved, 45ch is there telling everyone to be nice, and to remember this is going out on the Internet, and he is there to balence the record, and . . . who cares?
He might be Islamic, or very naive, but one thing he deffinatly is NOT is a reader of JihadWatch.
No, he's not interested in that. He would rather lecture us, or pacify us, all the while ready to boil over about Palestine if given the chance.
Very suspicious.
Icon of Evil
livingengine,
Here is the solution to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict :
..(a) the complete withdrawal by Israel from all occupied territories including East Jerusalem
(b) compensate all Israelis for settlements vacated
(c) compensate all Israeli victims of terrorism
(d) compensate all Palestinian victims of collateral damage
(e) compensate all Palestinian refugees for land confiscated by Israel as a result of previous wars
(f) Give a gift to the Palestinians by building them a four lane expressway that connects the Gaza strip to the West Bank........underpasses will connect the north side of Israel to the south side of Israel on either side of the expressway
(g) build an all encompassing electronic fence that completely separates Israel from the West Bank, the Gaza strip and the GS-WB Expressway
(h) directly aid the Palestinians to improve their economy.....aid should not go through the Palestinian government
(i) give incentives to American and Israeli corporations to help the Palestinian economy by creating jobs in Palestine
(j) the leaders of Israel, the Palestinian Authority, the political leaders of Hamas, Al-Aqsa Brigade and Islamic Jihad should be financially compensated in order to expedite the Israeli-Palestinian solution as soon as possible.......terrorists who are murderers would be covertly apprehended at a later date for a secret trial and secret detention.......if the well compensated political leaders of Hamas, Al-Aqsa Brigade and Islamic Jihad (who do not have blood on their hands) prove to be truly peaceful in the post-solution era than any secret US tribunal would consider the future peaceful actions of secretly indicted leaders as mitigating facts that might postpone the execution of any covert operations to apprehend those leaders.
An elaborate and expensive waste of time; and it would make Israel less, not more defensible.
DDA,
It would make Israel less defensible, when Israel is the most powerful country in the middle east with also nuclear weapons ?
I hope this man is wrong in his terrifying vision of a possible future:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1167467762531&pagename=JPArticle%2FShowFull
I hope that this man, instead, is right.
http://mid-eastplus.blogspot.com/2008/05/photograph.html
"Today, Israel is a women, bent at the knees and hips, a child in her arms, waiting for the bullet that will pound through her head.
But today, she will put the child on his feet and turn to face the SS soldier, and she will hold an Uzi sub-machine gun in her hand."
For *this* is just one small sample of what she faces:
http://mid-eastplus.blogspot.com/2008/10/annihilation-of-jews.html
I have posted these links not because I believe that you, 45ch, will follow them up, or that if you do, you will in any way be capable of understanding or empathising with what the authors are saying; but for the benefit of others in this forum.
DDA,
Explain to me how a nuclear armed Israel is vulnerable because by any standard, Israel is the most powerful country in the middle east.
If you think Pakistan and/or Iran are going to suicidally attempt a mutually assured destruction of both Israel and Pakistan/Iran due to nuclear exchanges, then all Israel has to do is make peace because if Pakistan or Iran are following the Koran, the Koran does say to make peace with those who want peace.
If ever there comes a day when Israel is destroyed, I will send you $1000 by paypal and apologize to you everyday, for the rest of my life but I am 100% sure that day will never come,
And on your death bed you will remember what I said to you today about Israel and maybe on your death bed, you will realize I was right all along and when you get to Heaven, God Himself will tell you I was right all along and that you need to forgive all your enemies, including your muslim friend : the lady who hurt your feelings.
DDA,
Here is a video of Jews in Iran saying they are proud of Iran and their jewish identity:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjSQWxETUbg&feature=PlayList&p=B04115C71038FC15&index=24
Video of an iranian jew who loves iran :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vA7yz2vciGk&feature=PlayList&p=B04115C71038FC15&index=17
a video of a jew saying that islamic iran is good for jews :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2Skmj8q0Wg&feature=PlayList&p=B04115C71038FC15&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=4
If Iran actually wants to destroy Israel, why are tens of thousands of jews in Iran, living in peace ?
Here is a video stating clearly that the President of Iran was talking about a democratic referendum in Palestine which will settle the issue of whether the govt of israel should exist or not and not what the US media is repeating that he wants Israel destroyed
ref : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mScWWtRfGQ&feature=fvw
Here is a video where the President of Iran says he is not denying the holocaust but asking why palestinian refugees should be denied the right to live in their own state and the excuse given is the holocaust :
ref : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykd-syzZ4ZY&NR=1
The so-called holocaust denial conference in Iran was attended by orthodox Jews too.
ref : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xA1DbBAcOQ&feature=related
Do you think orthodox Jews would be attending a conference in Iran if they knew that the President of Iran was actually wanting to destroy Israel with nuclear weapons or denying that jews died in the holocaust ?
Oh, give it up, mate. You really think that that proves anything?
I believe those heavily-scripted protestations from the heavily-dhimmified remnant of Persian Jewry, about as much as I believe the similar sorts of protestations we used to hear from those 'token' Jews or Christians who would be wheeled out, during the Soviet years, to tell everyone how wonderful it was in Russia. Dhimmis are often in denial. They're virtual hostages. They are *forbidden* to complain to outsiders, let alone ask for help from them, on pain of severe punishment. They *cannot* criticise their Muslim overlords, again, on pain of severe punishment. They know that if even one of them steps out of line or is perceived as having stepped out of line, 'breaking the dhimma', massive collective punishment may be inflicted by screaming Muslim mobs, upon their entire community. That is what I learned from reading Bat Yeor's 'The Dhimmi' and 'The Decline of Eastern Christianity Under Islam'.
The current Persian Jewish populations is no more than thirty thousand. Care to do some research and find out how many Jews lived in Persia during the time of the Shah of Iran and before the rise to power of the Ayatollah Khomeini? And just how many left precipitately either just before or not long after Khomeini reinstituted a heavily Islamified regime? Funny that. Check out Lawrence Loeb on the Jews of Persia.
Your apologetics for Ahmadinejad are beneath contempt.
And as for your attempt to pass off the Neturei Kartei, attending that obscene conference in Iran, as representative Jews...puh-leeze!
Post scriptum: FYI I pray each week for the Muslim woman who cheated me (she did not just 'hurt my feelings', she cheated our family out of a considerable sum of money which we could ill afford), and for her teenage daughter. Those prayers do not consist of curses (as you are probably fantasising that they do) but an entirely sincere plea to YHWH to liberate her and her daughter from the falsehood and slavery that is Islam. Of course, you will choose not to believe me; you seem to want to imagine me and all other resisters here, as eaten up by hate. But then you seem to be using a Mohammedan definition of 'hate', anyway, whereby anything other than total acquiescence to Muslim demands, and fawning flattery toward all things Islamic, constitutes 'hate'.
Anyway, if you are fantasising that my opposition to the ugly, totalitarian belief system that is Islam, is based on this particular personal experience, you are mistaken. I had read the Quran at least ten years before I met her, and pegged it then as a dangerous, bizarre and violent cult text (a judgement confirmed by the events of September 11th 2001, which also took place years before I met her); and I had also already read the testimony of certain persons escaped from Islam - Bilquis Sheikh in her book 'I Dared to Call Him Father', and Gulshan Esther in her book 'The Torn Veil' -,which meant that I knew about the sharia rule that apostates must be killed; another 'data point' which suggested to me that Islam is a dangerous closed cult. Furthermore, the horror stories coming out of Afghanistan about the way the Taliban treated women, had exposed to me the misogyny that suffuses classical, purist Islam.
DDA,
Persian Jews are in denial ? please explain, thanks
and why do they visit Israel and then go right back to Iran even though some Jews have left Iran for Israel due to the financial incentives given to Persian Jews by Israel.
DDA,
How do you explain orthodox jewish rabbis visiting Iran for the so-called holocaust denial conference ?
45 ch.
You don't know what kind of hold Iran had over those Jews whom it permitted to leave...who knows whether they may not have been told that there would be reprisals against family members, if they did not return. You also must bear in mind that the ancestors of these Jews have been in Persia far, far longer than Islam; perhaps they think that if they hang on and wait things out, eventually Islam will pass away as other empires have done.
As for Neturei Karta: they most assuredly do not speak for all thirteen million Jews in the world today. They are not even representative, so far as I can see, of the main tradition of Jewish Orthodoxy. They represent, in terms of numbers, what could truly be called 'a tiny minority' and their hostility toward the state of Israel, and their collaboration with and support for Jew-hating Muslim entities, seems to me to be both foolish and tragic.
This conversation is at an end, because no matter what anyone ever says to you, you keep on repeating by rote your canned taqiyya-and-tu quoque, like a robot.
After a while it ceases to be infuriating and becomes merely boring.
Go away, Mohammedtroll.
dumbledoresarmy, you stated :
You don't know what kind of hold Iran had over those Jews whom it permitted to leave...who knows whether they may not have been told that there would be reprisals against family members, if they did not return.
Comment :
If they did not return ? why does Iran want jews to return to Iran ?
So why do Iranians demonstrate on the streets of Tehran and even insult the President of Iran at colleges if there is a history of reprisals against family members ?
Even Salman Rushdie said that Iran did not have any reprisals against his family even though he himself was under a death threat.
Rushdie's mother (who lived in Pakistan during the later years of her life) even received outpourings of support.
ref : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salman_Rushdie
dumbledoresarmy, you stated :
As for Neturei Karta: they most assuredly do not speak for all thirteen million Jews in the world today. They are not even representative, so far as I can see, of the main tradition of Jewish Orthodoxy. They represent, in terms of numbers, what could truly be called 'a tiny minority' and their hostility toward the state of Israel, and their collaboration with and support for Jew-hating Muslim entities, seems to me to be both foolish and tragic.
Comment :
here is a video of a orthodox Jew saying the muslim and christian Arabs are like his brothers but not the Zionists :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2mTgq-jw8M&feature=related
The reason hundreds of thousands of Orthodox Jews do not support the state of Israel is because God never wanted a secular state but rather a theocratic state ruled by prophets or the Messiah.
Around Israeli election days, posters are posted throughout Haredi neighborhoods of Jerusalem proclaiming that it is forbidden to vote in the elections, and that doing so is a grave sin
Here are the main orthodox jewish groups opposed to Zionism and the govt. of Israel :
(1) Satmar Hasidic organization counts more than 130,000 members
(2) Neturei Karta organization
(3) Dushinsky organization
(4) Shomer Emunim organization
(5) Mishkenos HoRoim organization
(6) Edah HaChareidis organization
(7) Toldos Aharon community
(8) Toldos Avrohom Yitzchok community
The following organizations do support the govt. of Israel but are anti-Zionists :
(1) Lithuanian ('Litvish') Haredi Judaism
(2) Ger and Belz Hasidim
(3) Chabad-Lubavitch
45ch
Classical, traditional, mainstream Islam is fundamentally antisemitic. Hatred of Jews is hardwired into the Islamic scriptures and their mainstream interpretations past and present, and has been manifested by countless acts of evil committed by Muslims, against Jews, down through the centuries. I have seen the evidence and I am convinced. Shiite Islamic Persia was no exception; indeed, periodically throughout its Muslim history it was one of the very worst places in the Muslim world, to be a Jew. (And don't even bother to come back at me with turnspeak/ tu quoque arguments about Christendom: evil done by others for other reasons *does not make to disappear* or excuse or make any less bad, the evil deliberately done by Muslims for explicitly, specifically Islamic reasons).
I don't care how many times you deny or try to airbrush away the appalling history of Muslim cruelty toward Jews, in Islamic Persia or anywhere else in dar al Islam and I don't care how many dhimmi Jews you may trot out to 'prove' the contrary.
As for those anti-Israel Jewish groups you list (for only one of which you cite any numbers), it is my firm belief that any Jew who willingly makes himself a janissary of the Jihad by allying himself with Muslims against other Jews, or for that matter, against other non-Muslims of whatever religion, is a fool. Likewise, any Christian or Hindu who willingly chooses to help Muslims wage Jihad against non-Muslims, whether those targeted non-Muslims belong to his own group or another, is a fool.
Jews in Muslim Persia were treated badly and at intervals appallingly badly; their only real period of flourishing was during the reign of that modern Shah whom Khomeini's revolution deposed.
Another example of Muslim abuse of Jews within dar al Islam, is the testimony of the Jewish community of Yemen. They lived under sharia; basically the same sharia that has been imposed, steadily, unrelentingly, since Khomeini re-imposed an Islamic regime in Persia.
Here, from this very comments floor, is the testimony of a Jewish poster re. the feelings of those Yemeni Jews who had escaped to Israel, people he personally knew:
"I have never lived under sharia, but I have known former dhimmi who did, in Yemen back in the bad old days.
"*They tell me it was hell on earth to live that way, and that they would die before they would go back* {my emphasis - dda}.
"More to the point, they would kill before they would go back.
Posted by: ElderlyZionist at October 18, 2006 3:14 PM
More:
'I was once told a story about Yemen in the bad old days, before the Jews had left, about how Muslims 'protected' their dhimmi. I don't know whether it's true, but I believe it.
An Arab sheikh went to visit his neighbor, who welcomed him warmly. "Oh Abu Mustafa, my old friend. I'm glad you came to visit, it's been far too long. Please come sit, drink some coffee, and tell me what has brought you to my home today."
"Oh Abu Usama, my dear friend, it is black trouble that has brought me here. I am sorry to say that your sons have done something very wrong; they have damaged my honor, and if this thing is not made right, then there must be war between your clan and mine."
"Oh Abu Mustafa, this must not be! Now tell me how my sons have offended you, and for the sake of our old friendship, and of the peace between our families, surely I will make it right."
"Oh Abu Usama, your sons have shot one of my Jews, and raped his wife and daughter. This Jew was under my protection! By harming him, your sons have damaged my honor, and that of my whole clan. Now for the sake of my honor, and for the respect that is due my family, I must demand justice of you, and satisfaction for the harm done to my Jew."
"Oh Abu Mustafa, my old friend, I am so glad you came today to talk this matter over with me. You are completely right, and what my sons have done was very wrong. Surely, for the sake of our friendship and to keep the peace between us, I will give you justice.
"Now here is what I propose. Oh Abu Mustafa, let your sons come, and shoot one of my Jews, and rape his wife and daughter. So the balance between us will be restored, and your honor will be made whole."
And so it was done.
Posted by: ElderlyZionist at October 18, 2006 3:45 PM
Elderly Zionist's reporting of the way things worked in Yemen, as told to him by Jews escaped from Yemen, is confirmed by Hugh from a scholarly/ historical source:
"The story about the two Arabs in the Yemen is not apocryphal. That precise example -- that of a Jew "belonging" as chattel to Arab Tribe A being killed by a member of Arab Tribe B, and by way of obtaining appropriate justice, the members of Arab Tribe A are permitted to kill a Jew "belonging" to Arab Tribe B, is mentioned by R. S. Serjeant, the English scholar, in one of his articles on life in Yemen in the early 1950s."
Posted by: Hugh at October 18, 2006 11:13 PM
Furthermore, in this thread:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2008/12/muslim-extremist-kills-yemeni-jew.html
is another witness to the condition of those Jews who escaped from Yemen.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2008/12/muslim-extremist-kills-yemeni-jew.html#comment-489953
"When I was in college, one of my editors told me she had spent time in Israel in the late '70s. She had volunteered to help Jewish refugees navigate the social services system.
'She had the idea that she would be dealing mostly with "refuseniks" from the Soviet Union.
'Instead, she found herself dealing almost entirely with large numbers of Yemeni refugees. Hotel rooms set up originally for couples held entire families.
'She heard terrible stories of violence and oppression, which at first she had assumed were exaggerations, because they were so extreme.
'Finally, the stories were so similar, and the refugees so traumatized, that she started to credit the accounts.
This community had been very isolated, and knew very little about life outside their villages. Suddenly they wound up in modern highrises in Tel Aviv. They felt completely overwhelmed. Nonetheless, most were extremely grateful, and knew they were lucky to have been rescued."
- From Wikipedia:
'If one includes Aden, there were about 63,000 Jews in Yemen in 1948. Today, there are about 200 left...
'The Israeli government's Operation Magic Carpet evacuated around 44,000 Jews from Yemen to Israel in 1949 and 1950. Emigration continued until 1962, when the civil war in Yemen broke out. A small community remained unknown until 1976, but it appears that all infrastructure is lost now'.
I think it was members of this last cited group who my friend worked with in the 1970s.
'The few Jews now left in Yemen are just a tiny remnant, but even they are not safe.
'Muslims will not be satisfied until Yemen is "Judenrein".
'This has happened throughout the "Muslim world". Jewish and other minorities are being systematically driven out or murdered."
Posted by: gravenimage at December 13, 2008 12:35 AM
I quote, note well, everyone:
"terrible stories of violence and oppression, which at first she had assumed were exaggerations, because they were so extreme.
"Finally, the stories (of these Yemeni Jews escaped from dhimmitude) were so similar, and the refugees so traumatized, that she started to credit the accounts."
I suspect that those who work with the Christians and animists who have fled the Jihad and the horrors of Muslim rule in the Sudan, or with the Assyrian Christians who have managed to escape out of Iraq, or with any other set of people (e.g. the Christian and animist East Timorese) who have lived within Muslim lands but then have finally escaped into freer, happier places or (Timor) thrown off the Muslim yoke, could tell the same story as Gravenimage's friend: of having heard, from the escapees, "terrible stories of violence and oppression", which are so 'extreme' that the hearer wonders if they are exaggerated; until by dint of the repetition of the same awful testimony by person after person, and the obvious trauma of the persons relating their experiences, forces the hearer to recognise that the stories are nothing but the bare, brutal truth of what Muslims very habitually do to non-Muslims who are under their boot.
45ch wants us to pretend that none of this evidence as to how Muslims treat non-Muslims (all of it in full accord with the prescriptions in Islamic texts, as to how non-Muslims should be treated by Muslims) matters. 45ch probably wants us to pretend that none of this even happens, or ever happened.
45ch is either a Mohammedan engaging in jihad of the pen; or a blind fool.
DDA,
I believe the hatred towards Jews started during the time of the events in Deuteronomy 20 when Jewish armies were involved in genocide.
You cannot say that hatred of Jews is only confined to certain radical muslim groups, because you can find white supremacist groups hating Jews too.
Do you believe that Jesus hated Jews because He never criticized the terrorist Romans but only criticized Jews and Jesus had the harshest criticism of the Jewish religious leadership ?