You knew there would be a catch, didn't you?
"Praying behind imams who endorse terror declared haram," from the Daily Times, December 16 (thanks to Block Ness):
KARACHI: Offering prayers behind any imam who endorses terrorism and suicide attacks on Muslims, mosques, imambargahs, women and children and the country's security forces is declared haram (forbidden in Islam), according to a decree issued by religious scholars on Tuesday. "Suicide bombings and terrorist attacks in Pakistan are haram. Offering namaz behind those religious leaders who support suicide bombings and terrorism in the country is also haram," the decree stated. The decree against the pro-terrorism clerics and religious party leaders came at an Ulema Convention that was held at the Jinnah Ground, under the aegis of the Muttahida Qaumi Movement. The clerics urged unity among the various sects of Islam, saying that all sects should respect each other in the light of the teachings of the holy Quran and the Sunnah of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). MQM chief Altaf Hussain had appealed to scholars to condemn pro-terrorism leaders as well. The MQM chief asked religious scholars to create awareness among the masses about religious extremism. He said their role was crucial in defeating extremism in the country. He said use of force to impose sharia as well as terrorists involved in suicide bombings had defamed Islam across the world.
Just goes to show you how much of a bigot Robert is.
He does not appreciate any move that any Muslim makes to express and espouse a more moderate vision.
Robert is a contributing factor to the problem, and anything he says akin to "if the jihad went away I'd be happy and stop writing about it..."
BS...Robert has no desire to see the truth of Islam and the peace that it commands...as long as there is a book sale to be made.
Chaching! $18.95 a pop, he'll sell you all about it.
What is for real and what is for sale?
Peace
Abdullah Mikail
He said use of force to impose sharia as well as terrorists involved in suicide bombings had defamed Islam across the world.
Actually the actions and attitudes of moslems defame islam.
Muslim behavior is the main reason for the change, the hardening, of attitudes toward Islam and Muslims, all over the West. Those Infidels whotake note of that behavior, and explain it by reference to the texts of Islam, to what Islam inculcates, are merely doing the obvious -- so obvious, indeed, that members of our ruling classes have to make heroic efforts to avoid doing that obvious themselves.
AM
"He does not appreciate any move that any Muslim makes to express and espouse a more moderate vision."
More moderate than what exactly?
You are in essence confessing that there is in fact valid evidence that Islam is not moderate, and that these "moderate visions" of Islam are not normal.
Also, why should we accept and applaud these "moderate visions" that do not address the treatment of us infidels as being in any way progressive?
Poke a Christians conscience about being a more devout Christian, and you will get soup kitchens, homeless shelters, the abolition of slavery, equal rights movements, etc.
Poke a Muslim about being more devout, and you end up with blown up buildings, crashed airplanes, acid thrown into woman's faces, honor killings, and just general murder and mayhem.
A prophet, espoused to be valid by Muslims once said, "By their fruits you shall know them".
I think I have seen enough of the rotten fruit of Islam to know it is not from any sort of good god.
Andrew Bostom, in a review of Raphael Israeli's book, few years ago, 'Islamikaze: Manifestations of Islamic Martyrdom', refers to Mr. Israeli's practical suggestions for opposing such Islamic jihad:
[Extract from review] -
"The author concludes with a most unique and unflinching prescription for how Western democracies should respond to the Islamikaze threat. He proposes the creation of an Alliance of Western and Democratic States (AWADS), consisting of a nucleus of the United States, Canada, Australia, and Western Europe (and these core nations can sponsor other countries proven to conform to its rules and standards), with the following six avowed 'rules of engagement':
"Strict control of immigration from Muslim countries without reliance on the 'efforts' of the countries of origin, who have shown neither the will nor the means to stop this massive flow, much of it already illegal. This policy should include interception and routine unceremonious repatriation of the illegal immigrants themselves, and expulsion from AWADS nations of those who assist them."
More specific measues are articulated in the article here:
"Caliphate Dreams"
http://97.74.65.51/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=15064
Lorgan, Please don't get Mikey started on his philanthropic endeavors....
[vomit]
"The clerics urged unity among the various sects of Islam, saying that all sects should respect each other in the light of the teachings of the holy Quran and the Sunnah of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)."
Unity is a foreign concept and practice within Islam, and it was foreign to the unholy prophet Muhammad (PBUH: prison be upon him) as well. It is a known fact that Muhammad lived an evil life through lying, theft, sexual depravity, and murder 'n mayhem. And anyone calling this man a "Holy Prophet" has aligned themselves with evil, too; along with those that defend, promote, or adhere to the tenets of Islam & Company.
Media uses the term "Radicalization". I am not sure what that means. Can some one define a "Radical Muslim"? In terms of definition how is "Radical Muslim" different from "Devout Muslim". Exactly which aspects are different and which are similar.
Can someone explain?
Further to my comment at 3:09 pm above -
Raphael Israeli's latest book is:
"The Spread of Islamikaze Terrorism in Europe: The Third Islamic Invasion"
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/reader/0853037345/ref=sib_dp_pt#reader-link
Actually, Abby is pretty myopic. In his eyes, a condemnation of Moslems slaughtering other Moslems is all that is really important. Infidels are not worthy of any mention. If that little omission is brought up by anyone, they are a bigot. After that little tantrum, he raves about the price of one of Mr. Spencer's books apparenly. I guess it is hard for Abby buy things with his minimum wage job, so he whines.
Perennially interesting and quite instructive to see Muslims scramble to save their religion from itself by indicting this action by some Muslims or that action by other Muslims. All the while, Islam itself is the problem and Muslims refuse to see this. What other religion has to continually define, refine, explain, exculpate, make excuses for, the violence of so many of its adherents, whether against fellow believers or non-believers. All of this just proves the inherent rottenness of Islam and the reality that Islam can't be reformed. It must simply be discarded. Discarding Islam, not preserving it in any way (except as a curiosity of man's capacity for massive error), is the only rational course of action that will preserve liberty and other good things (e.g., real equality for women) which Islam knows nothing about.
The Muslim rube in this article who was quoted about Islam being defamed around the world stumbled into the truth but did not understand why. But the reason is obvious to all of those who can see clearly. Islam can't help defaming itself and becoming increasingly despised, even though enablers of Islamic evil appear everywhere (including here at JW) to offer one kind of pathetic whitewashing or another (e.g., the contextual argument to proclaim that the Koran and Hadith don't really mean what they clearly do) for the monstrous ideology which is Islam.
Poor AM
It's getting harder and harder to defend the indefensible.
The fruits of Islam are on display 24/7 -- about one third of the news reports down here cover the latest Islam on Islam mass atrocity -- the rest of the world has to share the other two thirds. This unremitting pouring of horror, mayhem and suffering is slowly slowly penetrating even the heavily defended minds of our governing bodies. "Ah, the peace and joy of Islam' I say, at each news horror show.
This reminds me of that episode of 'Seinfeld' where Jerry decides that he and Elaine, who formerly dated and are now good friends, should have sex in order to save the friendship.
How does one go about 'creating awareness' among the masses regarding terrorism and 'extremism?' Are they not aware of it already?
And urging unity between Shia and Sunni is one thing; ask either of them to band together with the Sufi, and you might see an honest-to-badness enactment of the classic sci-fi film 'Scanners.' :)
The whole thing stinks, like a gigantic un-flushed turd. As usual.
98:6 of the Qur'an calls unbelievers the vilest of creatures. According to Bill Warner, director of the "Center for the Study of Political Islam", 61% of koranic verses denounce unbelievers, and he says that there is no concept of "humanity" in Islam since unbelievers are outside the pale. That's why the Golden Rule only applies to Muslims in Islam.
Despite, or because of, the Qur'an's reverence for belief, violence and hatred directed at unbelievers is at the root of intra-Muslim violence, since the definition of belief is necessarily subjective and can never achieve total consensus, thereby guaranteeing perpetual strife.
Bill Warner's group has also analyzed the ahadith to measure how many verses on jihad actually refer to it as an inner struggle as opposed to waging war against infidels: Only 3% of the verses defined it that way. Remember that the next time someone quotes a hadith which seems to equate jihad with yoga.
The 'truth' inherent within Islam (and whether or not such a statement can rightly be classified as oxymoronic) can be up for discussion, but the 'peace that Islam commands' is a whole other matter.
Having seen several examples of such 'peace,' do feel free to enlighten me as to how I am not quite up to understanding it just yet.
Peace at the point of a sword (or the barrel of a gun) is no peace at all; coercion, certainly, but not peace. It is merely subjugation and humiliation on Islam's own terms, with no regard for those with whom you cannot find an accord.
Great!
An in-house argument between jihaddis who don't care about killing mohammedans and jihaddis who think that killing mohammedans is a bad thing.
And the rest of us are supposed to care because ...
Ah yes, the old 5:32 rationale, also applying, albeit silently, the 5:33 portion to declare non-muslim adult males as part of the protected group from this "haram" endeavor by Muslims in this laughable condemnation of "suicide" bombing. Robert aptly pointed it out and Abby, as usual, continues to try and tap-dance his way through the truth.
Absolutely, the actions of Muslims hurt the image of Islam, and rightfully so, the disgusting ideology that it is.
Back to the drawing board in the backroom offices of CAIR for you Abby, for another disingenuine attempt to spin the truth into something else.
Love that reasoning process of yours, Isabella. Of course, the wisdom and truth of it will escape the troll.
I just got Stealth Jihad in the mail yesterday (the book, not a bunch sneaky islamists), and I was quite satisfied with the price I paid for it.
Nope, you are the bigot, you and your hate-filled ilk. Oh, lest I forget, you're also a racist and a hater. Let's see, did I forget anything? Oh, that's right - you're an Infidelophobe.
Just goes to show you how much of a bigot Robert is. He does not appreciate any move that any Muslim makes to express and espouse a more moderate vision.
I don't think that is so but even if it were so what? Personal attacks will do nothing to get whatever point you have across. It will only harden those here who might give you a fair hearing.
Robert is simply pointing out that when words like "innocent", "muslims", etc are used to qualify such "moderate" statements (words that may be directly or indirectly interpreted by muslims as to exclude non-muslims) then such statements become suspect.
You should take a look at Are Western Civilians Legitimate Targets in War?. A set of for/against arguments used by muslims. This site is apparently run by a muslim who seeks to encourage debate inside the muslim community. I find it refreshing at least that some muslims see the need for this.
Robert is a contributing factor to the problem, and anything he says akin to "if the jihad went away I'd be happy and stop writing about it..." BS...Robert has no desire to see the truth of Islam and the peace that it commands...as long as there is a book sale to be made. Chaching! $18.95 a pop, he'll sell you all about it. What is for real and what is for sale?
What problem is that? That muslims claim to kill (and more) in the name of islam? This is not Robert's doing regardless if you like the way he comments on it or not. And yes, if jihad went away, Robert would have to find something new to do. BTW: Selling books is a normal activity regardless of the subject matter. The fact that an author sells his work does not ipso facto discredit the author and the material.
; )
Infidelophobe? Never saw this before. Good one, darcy. Hope it becomes a regular appellation. It certainly deserves to be.
Yep darcy, couldn't agree more. Micky is an Infidelophobe and a bigot as well.
I wonder where the peaceful message of Islam lies hidden. I haven't managed to find that treasure yet. Did the Easter bunny hide that chest?
But I'm probably only a misunderstander. Spreading a faith by fire and sword is very peaceful, isn't it? And killing people who aren't of the same opinion as you are is peaceful as well. You see it's all a matter of definition. Peace lies in the eyes of the beholder. Micky will teach and enlighten us.
Congrats to the invention of a new term.
Well said, big-pete, well said.
But of course he could always just borrow any of Mr. Spencer's books from the library of his local mosque. They no doubt have them all what with their constant striving to grow in knowledge and critique of their most important faith.
Not to be toooo repetitious, but, 'there is Islam, and there is sanity'...Abdullah, has obviously made his choice...
'The clerics urged unity among the various sects of Islam, saying that all sects should respect each other in the light of the teachings of the holy Quran and the Sunnah of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)'.
Urging unity...
These guys are afraid that they will be next...
at the Ulema conference:
"The declaration, signed by prominent clerics, including Mualana Fazlur Rehman, said that people were being instigated to rush to Islamabad and participate in Jihad. “Masses are being instigated through provocative statements, pamphlets, telephonic address and slogans to provoke them."
oh yeah,.....and the promise of a violent death upon you and your family if you don't help out the violent Taliban types......a promise made and carried out by the Taliban...
These clerics are doing nothing to combat the Taliban types nor are they helping the allied forces locate and fight the Taliban types....
These clerics are all talk...smoke and mirrors...intending only to try to pacify the growing "Islamophoebia".....Islamophoebia which is being nurtured by the ongoing violent acts of the Muslims themselves....and like a snowball running downhill...it will turn into an avalanche soon...an unstoppable avalanche..one the jihadi type Muslims won't like...
"He does not appreciate any move that any Muslim makes to express and espouse a more moderate vision."
Umm, not that I have noticed. While he and I disagree on certain specifics regarding tactics I have never gotten the impression that Robert is close minded on this subject.
I would say that he holds self-proclaimed moderates to rather high expectations regarding their public behavior and utterances. He might even be called a bit jaded about the concept of Muslims who CALL themselves moderates while talking out of both sides of their mouths.
I can understand that his being a devout Christian colors his expectations of a man-made religion (Islam) finding "enlightenment". But, given his apparent beliefs about God and reality, I think he is exquisitely fair-minded regarding Islam. I do not think his beliefs mean he denies the concept that subsets of Islam could reject and eject the Sharia and the hadith; everything but the Quran itself, and undergo a major schism.
But, I do get the impression he would give long odds against it happening anytime soon. I agree, but I myself am a hopeless optimist and refuse to give up on seeing it happen myself.
When the suicidal-homicidal-genocidal "Palestinian" jihadists were committing mass murders of innocent Israeli men, women and children, the Muslims around the world cheered, and their lowly white dhimmi groupies in EUrabia and the US were making excuses for all those murders, slandering, dehumanizing, blaming and vilifying the victims. Global hate campaign after rabid global hate campaign against Israel were waged because the Israeli government actually tried to protect its innocent people from murderers.
Now, ironically, Israel is the only one without suicide bombings. The murder-suicide is happening everywhere else: Spain, England, the US, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Indonesia, Turkey, Thailand, Morocco, Tunisia, Algeria, India ... .
What starts with the Jews does not end with the Jews.
Ruslan Tokhchukov, EnragedSince1999.
"Congrats to the invention of a new term."
Thanks, both Wellington and epistemology.
I was just thinking of the buzz words that Muzlims and their Apologists always label us with - you know, the "racist/bigot/hater" usual suspects. Then, I thought of the obligatory "Islamophobe" label we all love so much. So, how can it be turned back against them? Why, "Infidelophobe," that's how.
Hugh writes:
"...so obvious, indeed, that members of our ruling classes have to make heroic efforts to avoid doing that obvious themselves."
Hugh is still ignoring the normal sociological/cultural dimension of the problem. In this case, no heroism is needed to avoid the obvious; quite the reverse. To notice Islamic geopolitical pathology, and to contextualize it in terms of Islamic texts, is, in our time, to go à rebours.
AM
Glad to see you've been buying Robert's books. You're still not quite there yet in terms of understanding Islam but purchase a few more books, read them and you'll be fine.
Cheers.
why just stop at calling "AM" the infidelophobe because obviously mohammad who invented islam must be infidelophobe and quran is full of infidelophobia and as muslims claim it to
be the word of allah the Demon making it an infidelophobe and
the list goes on.
these so called muslim ulema are just as ignorant as any other
muslim; if they are sincere about declaring suicide bombing
and muslim extremism "haram" they should declare islam itself
to be "haram" and quit worshipping allah the demon.
Wow, I see that my newly-coined word is already being put into use! Thanks, Aziz!
Mohamet - the ultimate Infidelophobe.
http://thereligionofpeace.com/Articles/Infidelophobia.htm
"...and quit worshipping allah the demon."
You've got that right! ...yes, evil does exist, and anyone that thinks that it doesn't is stupid. Allah and satan are one in the same.
While I agree that 'infidelophobia' is quite catchy, it is letting the Muslims set the discourse.
THEY are the infidels, not us.
Great point, Silvester :)
Hi Tom, I clicked on your link from the excellent "thereligionofpeace" site and saw that "infidelophobia" has been previously coined (2005), to wit: (from the article) -
"Victims of Infidelophobia have good reason to be afraid because unlike Islamophobia, which may usually be categorized as a natural apprehension based on empirical observation, Infidelophobia is nurtured by thousands of radical imams in hate-filled sermons across the globe, as well as thousands of Islamist schools teaching extreme bigotry. There are even millions of Infidelophobes across the world, quite apathetic or even supportive of the many violent fanatics busily applying a literal interpretation of the Qur'an by killing thousands of infidels each year."
Obviously, it's a legitimate term. Sorry, Silvester, but "turnabout is fair play." And, it's NOT letting the Barbarians "set the discourse." It's OUR legitimate discourse, as Mohammedans hate "Infidels." Just as you are an Infidel, to the Mohammedans, Silvester.
"Infidelophobia" = Islam. End of story.
Mohamet - the ultimate Infidelophobe.