While the world lauds the late Montazeri for his opposition to the mullahcracy, it is useful to remember that he held what are mainstream -- not extremist -- Shi'ite views about unbelievers. "Montazeri's Limited Tolerance of Non-Muslims," by Jamsheed K. Choksy in (of all places) the Huffington Post, December 21:
[...] Following long-standing Shiite attitudes toward non-Muslims, Iran's revolutionary leader Grand Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini once declared that "the following eleven are unclean: first urine, second feces, third semen, fourth corpses, fifth blood, sixth dogs, seventh pigs, eighth non-Muslims, ninth wine, tenth beer, and eleventh the sweat of a camel which has consumed impure food." Khomeini had gone on to add, "every aspect of a non-Muslim is unclean."Yes Montazeri, once cast aside by the revolutionary elites, did become a fierce critic of the theocratic regime. As the years went by, he also was more open to extending additional rights beyond those of medieval-like dhimmi or protected status to non-Muslims in Iran. However, he did not sway from the orthodox Shiite perception that non-Muslims are impure. He merely suggested that any non-Muslim could make himself or herself "pure through chaste, Muslim-like, behavior."
Montazeri's comments on members of other faiths may seem more tolerant than ones by Khomeini or other ayatollahs like Ahmad Jannati who compared non-Muslims to "animals roaming the Earth and engaging in corruption." Yet the religious minorities in Iran see little theological difference and only a marginal pragmatism among the various Shiite views. Montazeri's opinion was characterized by one Iranian Christian clergyman as "rubbing salt into our wounds."...
There you go...
In other words, another Ayatollah. Another Sistani. Another As-sole who believes this:
The following ten things are essentially najis:
Urine
Faeces
Semen
Dead body
Blood
Dog
Pig
Kafir
Alcoholic liquors
The sweat of an animal who persistently eats najasat.
Kafir. Google it. That's you and me.
A mullah is a mullah is a mullah. They all hate the kuffar.
"Marg bar Amrika"
He merely suggested that any non-Muslim could make himself or herself "pure through chaste, Muslim-like, behavior."
of course....SUBMIT...submit to Islam and Muslims....
by their actions across the globe, it would indeed appear the Muslims by and large...do hate the kuffar.....hate that is probably taught to them by their religious clerics preaching from the Qur'an....
"He merely suggested that any non-Muslim could make himself or herself "pure through chaste, Muslim-like, behavior."
In the eyes of a Muslim who practices very well his religion, a Non-Muslim person remains an inferior being.
Be a nice kaffir and shut up !
I think Islam is the only "faith" which has so much attention to feces and urine. How spiritual it is !
Houellebecq was quite right: L'Islam est la religion la plus con ! (Islam is the dumbest religion !)
If Montesari is inspiration for the forces of freedom to rise up and shake their fists at the mullahs, so be it. There are thousands and a growing thousands more who see the farce of Islam and the its true face in Iran. We should be in full support of the uprising irregardless of the inspiration for the uprising.
"He merely suggested that any non-Muslim could make himself or herself "pure through chaste, Muslim-like, behavior.""
So if I grow a beard, get a few child brides, beat my wife, order an honour killing or two for those women who have dishonoured my clan and urge the Muslim umma to lie, cheat and kill non-Muslims, THEN I'll be "pure"? Just like the "prophet" Muhammad?
I get it now.
Let's see,
I think I have this right,
in chronological order:
Judaism is the religion of God's children.
Christianity is a reality.
Islam is an ideology, masquerading as a religion, that is hell bent on conquering the western world, the eastern world, the north pole, (sorry Santa), the south pole, and anything that's left.
My Iranian Best-Buddy, Gholam Hussein, obviously forgot what he had told me this past summer vis-a-vis The Great Iranian Election Fraud and the "dissident" Moussavi! At the time he said, "Eli, the ONLY difference between A'jad and Moussavi is in the weight, in the size, and the hate in the stones they cast at adulteresses!"
Yesterday he prefaced a similar thought about the death of the "dissident" Montazeri's death by saying: "Does the West really believe that Khomenei's best-buddy, a very high-ranking Imam, would be sympathetic to calls for Secular Democracy? The only difference between Montazeri and Khameini is the number of and the manner in which the kaffirs they both detest should be decollated!"
I'm beginning to think that this is more than naivete on the part of the West! It's beginning to feel more like deadly wishful thinking, lethal day-dreaming, which will only be dissipated by a series of loud booms!
My Iranian Best-Buddy, Gholam Hussein, obviously forgot what he had told me this past summer vis-a-vis The Great Iranian Election Fraud and the "dissident" Moussavi! At the time he said, "Eli, the ONLY difference between A'jad and Moussavi is in the weight, in the size, and the hate in the stones they cast at adulteresses!"
Yesterday he prefaced a similar thought about the death of the "dissident" Montazeri's death by saying: "Does the West really believe that Khomenei's best-buddy, a very high-ranking Imam, would be sympathetic to calls for Secular Democracy? The only difference between Montazeri and Khameini is the number of and the manner in which the kaffirs they both detest should be decollated!"
I'm beginning to think that this is more than naivete on the part of the West! It's beginning to feel more like deadly wishful thinking, lethal day-dreaming, which will only be dissipated by a series of loud booms!
Salam,
Why is it inmportant for you to be liked by Islam. Life is not like that; Islam is very clear and introduces boundaries for believers; However remember that Allah SWT has been most kind and has BOTHERED to instruct the kufr to his fold...he didn't have to ...but he has.
So I think you can recopricate to the kind message...learn the sahada, wear the prayer cap, see if the fit is right, take pictures of yourself wearing it, hang pictures of the Kabaah in your house, listen to islamic naatas...and the teacher shall automatically present himself to you.
That list of 10 unclean things are not for you see...you don't have to be on that list...CHANGE...make 2010 the year you took yourself OUT of the list of the unclean.
Make that change , take ACTION....Allah SWT awaits his new slaves.
Yom-seem, please. Go fuck yourself.
Oh, and have a Merry Christmas.
allah is the arab Demon who is trying every deception to humiliate humans by trying to convert them into muslims and
make them worship each others a..es and a..holes and any muslim or mullah who thinks otherwise is simply an ignorant
fool; and as for shias, they are nothing but dogs in the eyes
of the sunnis.
what a shame, unclean animals i.e. muslims trying to rate the
humans.
Isabella,
That's not very nice is it? Why the personal attack...do I ever attack you personally? ...NO never....to me this is a sign of weakness where your "adversary" has "lost it" and has no defence to the argument.
Let me tell you that I get this strength and understanding of human nature from Allah SWT , Muhd SAW Hadith and the Koran Sharif.
But you probably know all this ...strength of Islam I mean.
Remember it's NEVER too late to convert whilst you are alive...get off that unclean list NOW.
Oh and happy ISA-MAS to you too.
Yom
What the author of the article left out was that Khomeini and Montazeri fell out over very real policy differences.
Listen folks, I'm not for a minute suggesting that Montazeri was "good", I'm merely pointing out that the policies he advocated were preferable to those of Khameini, just as those of Pakistan's current PM are preferable to those of the Taliban.
Muslim-advocacy groups in the West are adroit at exploiting differences between infidels; they clearly prefer Leftists in power and effectively lobby those same Lefties to achieve their malevolent ends. Why shouldn't we similarly exploit the ideological differences between Muslims in Darul Islam?
Should the Iranian opposition ever achieve power (improbable, as things are), problems will persist between Iran and the West, particularly over the nuke program. Nonetheless, it's very likely that relations will improve over an array of issues.
For us to insist that "all Muslims are the same" has a certain logic when it comes to immigration policies and religious profiling at home, but it is detrimental to our aspirations abroad of encouraging divisions in the Muslim world and isolating the most violent, fanatical elements. And let's be clear, we can play the game of 'great power' politics without validating Islam as a belief system (unlike current policy). Doing so makes a lot more sense to me than walking away from the Muslim world, leaving what friends we have there to their own devices, and pretending to be indifferent to who rules what country, and by extension, who is planning what for us...down the road.
Infidels! How soon you forget! You can never become unclean!
It is I, unbelievers and believers, Abdullah Bhullah, the wacky mullah.
There is no taquiyya from me, O sons of apes and pigs! Despite what you may hear from the uninformed, Allah has created you so that Muslims can kill you, rape your wives and sell your children into slavery. After you are dead, O infidels, Allah may torture you for eternity! Allah is merciful and compassionate!
So forget about taking a bath and becoming an ignorant believer! You are so doomed to be what Allah created! Target practice for jihadi warriors!
Predestination is prevalent in Islam! Mohammed makes Calvin look like a piker!
Happy Infidel Holiday
A.B.
That should read...
"...we can play the game of 'great power' GEO-politics without validating Islam as a belief system..."
I like being a filthy kufr...I never wash my feet five times a day, once a month is sufficient...I take a bath every Saturday night even if I don't need one...Every day, I go about doing unIslamic things...I try to be the best filthy kufr that I can be...
Yom...and the teacher shall automatically present himself to you.
I tried that once Yom...It was a 'she' teacher...She taught me many things...especially the lesson about shared bank accounts...As a result I threw her out along with the prayer rugs, caps, my prize picture of the Kaaba, and that terrible naatas stuff...it took a while to get filthy again, Allah kept bugging me with tales of erotic Paradise, but I managed to overcome that by smoking lots of pot, and drinking beer...Watching Oprah also helped...
But that was a long time ago and now I have redeemed myself in the eye's of kufr...I still drink, smoke pot, watch Oprah, and bathe one a week, but Allah has quit pestering me...
He's very wise you know...besides he can't stand the smell...Allah repellent...A squirt a day, keeps Allah away...If I could bottle that, I could get rich...
The only thing I ever agreed with abdullah mikhail of CAIR Dallas about was Yom al Juma.
Yom al Juma is a FAKE.
"For us to insist that "all Muslims are the same" has a certain logic when it comes to immigration policies and religious profiling at home, but it is detrimental to our aspirations abroad of encouraging divisions in the Muslim world and isolating the most violent, fanatical elements."
For someone (the poster responsible for the statement above) to suggest that showing how ontazeri is not quite the splendid fellow he is now mistakenly, by some, being thought to be, because he disagreed on some things with Khomeini and Khomeini's epigones, is somehow "to insist that 'all Muslims are the same'" is illogical.
And the divisions in the Camp of Islam that are most usefully exploited are the sectarian and ethnic divisions, particularly the fissures between Sunni and Shi'a in Iraq (and, most immediately, in Bahrain, Yemen, Lebanon, Kuwait) and, in the wider world, between non-Arab and Arab Muslims. AS the former come to realize all the ways that Islam has been and remains a vehicle for Arab supremacism), some may be susceptible to seeing Islam as what it was called by the late apostate Anwar Sheikh: the "Arab National Religion." The third split that I frequently note, is the economic one, in the Ummma, between the oil-and-gas rich Muslim members of OPEC, and those Muslims who do not possess such unmerited riches (and have not been given any share in Allah's bounty by the richer members of the Umma).
The poster above, however, wishes to concentrate on that division he sees between "moderate" and not-so-moderate Muslims. Focus on that, however, leads to all kinds of policy mistakes and squanderings. The idea that "moderate" Muslims are just fine, even though no one has presented a working definition of those "moderates" that could possibly assuage worries, given that, as Ibn Warraq says, "Islam itself is not moderate" and the "moderate" Muslims can become most immoderate whenever they choose, for whatever reason, to take their Islam straight up rather than on the rocks (of nuance, local custom, the influence of Infidels nearby, temporary necessity).
Yom-seem, you keep telling yourself that honey. ; )
Yom...Let me tell you that I get this strength and understanding of human nature from Allah SWT , Muhd SAW Hadith and the Koran Sharif.
Well that explains it...I bet that hurts...what medications are you on?
HUGH: "The idea that "moderate" Muslims are just fine,..."
RESPONSE: The above characterization is deliberately misleading. My exact quote:
"I'm not for a minute suggesting that Montazeri was "good" [i.e., "just fine"], I'm merely pointing out that the policies he advocated were preferable to those of Khameini..."
As for the broader issue, yes, I believe Karzai in Afghanistan, for all his faults, is preferable to the Taliban; I believe PM Zadari is preferable to the Pakistani Taliban; I believe the current Iraqi government is preferable to AQI or Al Sadr's forces. This doesn't mean they are "just fine"...far from it. But it does mean that our withdrawal of support for any one of the three would have very real and undeniable national security and geo-political repercussions.
These contenders are slaughtering each other with gusto...which is neither accidental nor incidental; for us to pretend their differences are irrelevant is to squander opportunities to shape events and outcomes in Darul Islam. Whether or not we should be spending the blood of our countrymen and inordinate amounts of treasure in these battles is most certainly a legitimate question. But the belief by some that our leaving the field will have no repercussions for America and the world is - in my humble opinion - terribly naive.
eliXels --
You are precisely correct, and it is disheartening to see so many Jihad Watchers remain all starry-eyed about the romanticized "Iranian People". A good dose of reading a few Diana West articles about this subject, penned over this past year, should help to cure the Persian Flu.
Montazeri, great "reformist" Ayatollah, had hatred and contempt for non-Muslims
.........................
In many ways, I consider this very analogous to Westerners who managed to convince themselves that Soviet Russia would have been an entirely decent place if Lenin had stayed in power, or if Trotsky had not been exiled and murdered—when the ideology and policies of these two would have been only slightly more "moderate" than the horrific Stalin.
From the Wall Street Journal:
U.S. Condolences Mark Support for Iran Dissidents
"With Montazeri's voice gone, what happens to the movement? That remains to be seen."
Many U.S. diplomats and strategists also continue to believe that any aggressive and overt American support for Iran's democrats at this stage could hasten a broader political crackdown by Tehran's security forces.
.........................
"Iran's democrats"—is that what they are?
I have found it generally craven that Obama has stood by with hardly a rebuke about the murderous crackdown by the Iranian Mullocracy on dissidents.
At the same time, to uncritically consider these dissidents to be "Iran's democrats" seems incredibly naive to me.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB126135904319299557.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
I was going to scold you because Yom was using sarcasm, but now it appears that he/she was serious. Wow, you can't make this stuff up.
On a more encouraging note, it is nice to see that we Kafir rank higher on the unclean list then shit, piss, and dead bodies! There must be something to this Islamic tolerance thing after all.
The poster "gravenimage" above is reminded, and in turn reminds us, of the simiilarities between those disenchanted with Communist rule who nonetheless clung to a myth of the Good Lenin, Ilyich the Good, and those Iranian dissidents who looked up to Montazeri, and now honor him, as part of their need to ask themselves the wrong question -- "where did the Islamic Revolution go wrong?" rather than insist on a forthright and grim recognition that "the Islamic Revolution was always wrong" because Islam itself needs to be checked, Islam itself is not an answer to anything in Iran. What is an answer is the secularizing spirit of those behind the 1906 Revolution, the first sign of liberalization and getting away from Islam in Iran, a country whose people, with their fierce pride in all the non-Arab (and non-Islamic) aspects of their history provides an alternative identity to that which Islam offers, and may yet save them.
Hello Wally,
Yom-seem is really Naseem from the good old days at JW, a Muslima from Lahore with a furniture shop and a husband she says died in an earthquake back a few years ago. She also has a son whom she was fretting might marry an English Christian girl. Because she has never made any more comments about him I'm pretty sure they are married now, much to Yom-seem's chagrin. She loves to get on and proselytize and was booted out of here a year or so ago so she now masquerades as Yom-al-something or ruther, and swears she's a "virile Muslim man". Don't you always go around telling everyone how virile you are?
As for my use of the F-bomb, I do deserve a scolding and would never say that in front of my mother but at this time of year, with the politically correct nonsense of "Happy Holidays" being spouted out like some enlightened, meaningful greeting, which I abhor, I offer two greetings, either of which any of my fellow human beings may choose. The first would normally be "Merry Christmas" which I utter with all my heart. If some find that offensive then there is always "Fuck You" as a back up. Because Yom-seem/Naseem is so special I let her have it, er, let her have both. All's fair in love and Dar al harb.
BTW, it really isn't any of my business what Muslims think about me, nor could I care less. As if their opinion meant anything. Please.
Ah yes, I remember Naseem. I was wondering what happened to her.
As far as my virility is concerned, I usually talk about that on other websites.
Grand Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini once declared that "the following eleven are unclean: first urine, second feces, third semen, fourth corpses, fifth blood, sixth dogs, seventh pigs, eighth non-Muslims, ninth wine, tenth beer, and eleventh the sweat of a camel which has consumed impure food."
Are those listed in any kind of ranking? I.e. is urine the most (or least) unclean? Or are they given in no particular order?
Also, this is the first I've heard of a camel's diet being halal or haram. So what are impure things for a camel to eat? While one might train a camel to drink beer, I don't believe one could ever get a camel to eat pork.
And if camels can have an impure diet, what about goats and sheep?
"What is an answer is the secularizing spirit of those behind the 1906 Revolution..."
I have a simple non-negotiable litmus test for even beginning to entertain the possibility of a viable Iranian "reform" movement: Its members and leaders must praise the former rule of the Shah as the best rule Iran/Persia has had since its people succumbed, by hook or by crook, to Islam centuries ago.
LOL! Just walked in and saw this. I'm glad I wasn't drinking anything at the time. ; )
BTW, Yom-seem seems to have disappeared. Hmmm...
...truth, the real troll repellent.
Montazeri's comments on members of other faiths may seem more tolerant than ones by Khomeini or other ayatollahs like Ahmad Jannati who compared non-Muslims to "animals roaming the Earth and engaging in corruption."
This phrase jumped out at me. Not so much because "other" Islamists saw infidels as "animals" (already knew that), but at the concept of animals "engaging in corruption". Um. Is there, in the Muslim mind, anything but Muslims that aren't corrupt? Again, I take note at the total depth and breadth of Islamic hatred; they do seem to hate everything but thsmselves.
Isabella - Feel heartened. Everywhere I've been in this new town so far, people have wished me a "Merry Christmas!" Not a Happy Holidays to be seen or heard. ANd I happily wish a Merry Christmas (and a Happy New Year) back to them.
And for some reason, the Christian lady in the second-hand bookstore, whom I have only met once before, hugged me. O.o
"Remember it's NEVER too late to convert whilst you are alive...get off that unclean list NOW."
old number one and number three on the Muslim ultimatum list.....convert, pay jizyah, or die......
I see that beer and wine are listed as separate items on the list, rather than alcoholic drinks in general. Was Montezeri a secret sherry/whisky/brandy/bathtub gin drinker?
Yom,
As a Najis infidel I would like to echo the advice given by Isabella; though if you are offended by that perhaps I should say please go fuck yourself.
Allah and Mohammed can do the same.
Merry Christmas.