"THIS IS AN OPEN THREAT TO YOU AND YOUR ORGANIZATION TO STAY AWAY FROM MUSLIMS AND ISLAM IF YOU KNOW WHAT IS GOOD FOR YOU."

Robert,

And I will add to what Mr.Fitnah offers. For the next time you plan to be in the 460 (Metro Indy) area, let me know. We can take a leisurely drive west to Plainfield and throw rotten eggs at Fortress ISNA.

Well, maybe just stop by and ask some pointed questions about their relationship with the Muslim Brotherhood.

Would be an interesting day! Keep me in mind.

Cheers from the Infidelic Red State of Indiana!

all you f*cking religious people are the same.
may GOD rest your soul.

A textbook case of cognitive dissonance...

At least he's consistent with his inconsistency...

I would suggest, duh_swami, that Hugh's characterization of him as a Father Coughlin type is pretty much on the money. After all, Coughlin glossed over Nazi barbarism (like Kristallnacht) while he excoriated those who criticized Adolf and his gang. Why just yesterday fairuzfan wrote about "Zionist Jewish supremacism" and praised a terrible revisionist historian, I mean simply wretched, who thinks Abraham Lincoln was a war monger and a below average President (see the thread on Martin Van Buren from the day before).

"I notice Fairuzfan stays away from these threads...Wonder why?" - duh swami

Yes, how odd, swami - esp considering that he's a Jew (yeah right!)

Thanks for your defense, btw.

"Even Moses was flawed, as was Jesus - I know my Christian friends will disagree."

May I inquire as to exactly how Jesus was "flawed?"

I'm not a Christian, wildjew, but I would be quite interested, as is darcy, as to exactly how Jesus was flawed. Just for the record and all that. Waiting.

Well, personally, I've always been a little bothered by the scene where he casts demons out, only to put them into a herd of pigs, who are then driven off a cliff, iirc.

Yeah, I think it was all about them being Roman-owned pigs, who likely had no business being in Jerusalem, but that's not the pigs' fault.

I would expect a little better all the way around. Just sayin'.

Not bad, Spirit Wolf. Not bad at all. After all, what did the pigs do to deserve this? Hmmm. Reminds me of a quote from Churchill (most everything does). He said that he liked pigs and observed that dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs, well, they treat us like equals.

Yes, I know that levity and a little irreverance has entered into this thread (which is really quite the serious one because of threats on Robert Spencer's life), but humor redeems us, even in dark circumstances, and that's why I just noted what I did. Come to think of it, there's not much humor in the Islamic world, now is there? Yet another minus we can level on that sphere of mankind. And musical theatre (hell, any music) is kind of scarce there too, no? Not to mention freedom. Or equal rights for women. Or great athletic achievements. Or fine breweries (well, scratch that one completley, eh?). In fact, is there ANYTHING the Islamic world does well which is a positive for mankind? Can't think of any. Can anyone?

To get back to a more serious topic (and to redeem myself in the eyes of devout Christians), Jesus, I have many times maintained here at JW, even though I am not a Christian, is an almost infinitely superior character to Mohammed. No comparison. Mohammed was wretched. Jesus was not. Case closed, regardless of religious predilections.

On this point I must disagree with Churchill - I have cats and they definitely do not "look down" on me. Rather, they're sweet, loving, affectionate, interesting and fun. Smart, too. In fact, right now "Cubby" is grooming herself on a corner of my "Crusader" sweatshirt - you see, smart, very smart. I don't believe Churchill was a cat-owner.

"Mohammed was wretched. Jesus was not. Case closed." - Wellington

Exactly. Tonight I watched "A Charlie Brown Christmas," which I do every year, and at the end when the gang sings "Hark! the Herald Angels Sing" around the tiny fir tree symbolizing Jesus, tears welled in my eyes. I guess that means I'm in the Christmas spirit!

Merry Christmas to everyone! (Ignore the vile hate-filled brainwashed Mohammedans).

The cats comment from Churchill aside (I actually like cats myself but I'm allergic {very} to them), we agree, darcy, on far more than we disagree on. Merry Christmas to you and to your family.

As an aside, I know of no religious feast which has produced more pure beauty and wonder than Christmas. With respect to all who are religious (except Muslims who have much to answer for), Christmas, from a purely aesthetic point of view, is the greatest of all religious holidays. Chalk one up for the Christians.

As for cats, mine walk all over me. Mostly because I let them. :)

I actually wish you would refrain from proselytizing. There are Hindus, Buddhists, and Jews who are afflicted by Islam. This is not a sectarian site. People conveying short prayers or answering Islamist claims should post the appropriate references, including scriptural ones. However, using this site to push one's faith is not an appropriate use of this resource. In fact, it really does legitimize Islamist claims that this is simply a "Christian" site.

Also, even from a Christian perspective, your presentation of St. Paul's Epistle to the Romans is pretty canned and tedious. There are other places for such activities, and you should spend your time on those sites, rather than doing what you are doing here.

Foolster,

You do not have to worry about terrorists taking over, because the US rendition program apprehends all suspected terrorists before they have a chance to harm the US govt. in anyway.

As for christians, they need to trust God because everything is in God's hands and that is why Jesus prophesied that the Jews should flee Jerusalem when the terrorist Romans came to attack Jerusalem in AD70 since in God's infinite wisdom, there is no such thing as a "just" war, even against the terrorist pagan Romans who were determined in destroying Jerusalem.

Foolster,

You have acknowledged in the past that christians are capable of violence, just as a tiny minority of preachers have been known to murder.

I did not blame all christians in Soviet Russia for the massacres, but I do blame a tiny minority of christians in Soviet Russia for the genocides, just as I blame a tiny minority of christians for the American revolution, the American civil war, the massacres of native Americans and all the imperial expansions of the US govt.

Jesus was a human being. How could he be perfect, without sin as the Christian bible maintains? No man is without sin. Not even messiah is without sin. Messiah is supposed to come from the house of David. In fact, he is called David from time to time in the prophets. Was David without sin? Moses said, God would raise up a prophet from among your brethren (i.e., not from among the Arabs or the Ishmaelites, but from the Jews) "like me." Was Moses perfect, without sin? If Jesus was omniscient, as one might expect of the Almighty, why did he tell his disciples there were things he did not know; like when the last day would come or who would sit at his right hand, etc.? Why did he say, only the Father (God Almighty / YHWH) knows these things? If God is one and only one as the Torah maintains - and there is none like Him - how can He be three gods?

Wild Jew, you have a perfect right to ask those questions. Let me explain the three god concept.

There aren't three gods. There are three persons in one God, the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. This is hard for us to understand but as I was taught in first grade at Catholic school it is a mystery. I don't really understand physics but I believe that it exists.

Jesus isn't just a man, He is also God. As the Son of God He is not beneath the Father but as much God as the Father is. I know this is hard to believe but to me it makes sense. In the Old Testament God promised to send a redeemer. Jesus fulfilled this promise. What evidence do I have to back up this claim? Well, look at what He did while He was here. His contemporaries document that He healed withered hands, useless limbs, sightless eyes and broken hearts. He removed demons from people who had been suffering for many years. He told the woman at the well what her sins were. He raised Lazarus from the dead. And most importantly, He said he would die on the cross, meaning He would die one of the most painful and humiliating deaths, a death that left no room for the possibility of survival, so we know He was really dead. And then after three days He rose again. No one else in the history of mankind has done this.

The other thing that we've got to pay attention to is what an act of love this was. God didn't owe us anything. And yet when we screwed up He forgave us and gave us a way to redeem ourselves, except that He didn't expect us to die on the cross, He decided to do that Himself. Amazing.

I gotta go but one other way to look at the three in one concept is to go back to the way St. Patrick converted the Irish people. He picked up a shamrock and pointed out that it had three petals but was one leaf. (?) (Not sure what you call that.) One whole with three parts.

Gotta run. And I wish you from my heart, Have a good day!

Heidi2027 : Update from South Carolina

That's a great Vid, thanks for the link and well done!

Reassuring to know we can reach them at quranic universities....Road trip!

When will the Govt. wake up?

Yeah, I hope he has turns all of this to the FBI. I don't know if it will do any good with this administration. They remind me of the FBI of Janet Reno/Clinton. When the OKC bombing and all the 'lost' information (read, the Third Terrorist).

But, I figured that Mr. Spencer was on a death list in Islam's world of piece('s of body parts). I was surprised to see him in videos where Muslims are located at. It would just take one psychopath (that Islam seems to nurture) to take him out.

Please stay safe. We pray for you and others who are at the front lines.

"You do not have to worry about terrorists taking over, because the US rendition program apprehends all suspected terrorists before they have a chance to harm the US govt. in anyway."

You probably need to get out of your basement more. That is one of the most thick comments I have seen in months.

I can see what Foolster is talking about. You really do need to check in it your caregiver. The medications are not working for you.

Wildjew asks:

"If Jesus was omniscient, as one might expect of the Almighty, why did he tell his disciples there were things he did not know; like when the last day would come...?"

CARM: Christian Apologetics and Research Ministy, offers an excellent and succinct explanation to your query, entitled:

**"If Jesus is God, then why did He not know the time of His return?"**

Go to this link for the answers:
http://www.carm.org/christianity/christian-doctrine/if-jesus-god-then-why-did-he-not-know-time-his-return

Excerpt from above link:

"Jesus was both God and man. He had two natures. He was divine and human at the same time. This teaching is known as the hypostatic union; that is, the coming-together of two natures in one person. In Heb. 2:9 that Jesus was ". . . made for a little while lower than the angels . . ." Also in Phil. 2:5-8, it says that Jesus "emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men . . ." Col. 2:9 says, "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form." Jesus was both God and man at the same time."

...it continues ...and this is very important to note as it addresses your other query:

"Before Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection He said the Father alone knew the day and hour of His return. It wasn't until after Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection that omniscience is attributed to Jesus. As I said before, Jesus was cooperating with the limitations of being a man and completed His ministry on this earth. He was then glorified in His resurrection."

Wildjew asserts: "Messiah is supposed to come from the house of David."

Dr. Fruchtenbaum, from Ariel Ministries, offers a comprehensive work proving that Yeshua is Messiah and from the house of David, entitled:

**"Was Yeshua (Jesus) the legitimate Messiah? Messiah's Right to David's Throne"**

Go to this link for the answers:
http://www.messiahnj.org/af-throne.htm

Excerpt from above link:

"The legitimate Messiah needed to be a descendant of King David and he needed to be appointed by God. The following Rabbinic account attempts to dispel Yeshua’s right to David’s throne and, therefore, the legitimacy of His Messiahship. In contrast, the Messianic interpretation, given by Dr. Fruchtenbaum, is a fascinating study proving that Yeshua truly is the rightful heir of David’s throne."

Hesperado, you stated :

"You do not have to worry about terrorists taking over, because the US rendition program apprehends all suspected terrorists before they have a chance to harm the US govt. in anyway."

They did a great job with Hasan, didn't they?

Comment :

I was talking about terrorists taking over the US govt. and believe me, the US govt is not going to kill "the goose that lays the golden egg " by allowing terrorists to take over the US govt.

Between 1776 and 2009, how many American muslim soldiers killed their fellow soldiers ?

How many of the 3500 American muslim soldiers killed their fellow soldiers ?

There have been numerous incidents of non-muslim soldiers killing their fellow soldiers since 1776 and probably a couple of American muslim soldiers did kill their fellow soldiers, but nothing compared to the number of non-muslim soldiers killing their fellow American soldiers.

Hasan was reacting to US foreign policy and if the US govt. wants all Americans to be totally safe, the US govt. needs to dramatically change its foreign policy and not cater to the profit agenda of the bloated, greedy, corrupt, wasteful, military/industrial, pork laden, corporate welfare, entitlement complex that is presently looting the US treasury of well over a trillion dollars or 68 cents of every hard earned tax dollar, every year.

Hesperado, you stated :

Given the willful suppression of important data that constitutes the profile of the Muslim terrorist (e.g., the shameful marginalization of the only man, Stephen Coughlin, in the Pentagon who believed that Islamic law might have something to do with the ideological formation, inspiration and motivation of Muslim terrorism), I do not feel all that secure, especially with the reasonable likelihood that Muslim terrorists are, and have been for years, assiduously trying to get their ducks in a row for a horrific WMD attack on highly populated targets of which we may not know until they happen.

Comment :

Willful suppression of data is to keep the problem going, in order to keep the fear level high enough so that the good citizens of the US do not question the yearly trillion dollar looting of the treasury by the military/industrial complex.

A WMD attack will never happen for the following reasons :

(1) Osama Bin Laden has clearly said that a WMD attack is what the US does ( talking about the US nuclear attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki ) and Osama has said that Islam prohibits using WMD.

(2) Countries with WMD have very high security because they do not want to share their power with anybody, especially terrorists.

(3) There is no proof that terrorists have the capability of producing WMD since it requires highly specialized equipment that are also well secured by countries that have WMD, unless you have proof of specialized equipment getting into the hands of terrorists.

(4) All the scientists who are capable of producing WMD are well compensated by their individual govts and its highly unlikely that a person with decades of specialized training will suddenly become a terrorist, unless you have proof of a scientist becoming a terrorist and even then, how is he going to get the highly specialized equipment ?

(5) All the talk about terrorists getting WMD is a scare tactic on the part of the US govt's propaganda machinery to keep the looting of the treasury going at over a trillion dollars every year or 68 cents of every hard earned tax dollar, so that the re-election of puppet politicians of the military/industrial complex is assured as the military/industrial complex financially supports its puppet politicians.

Hesperado, you stated :

It is that latter prospect that we must take deadly seriously, and which ramps up the risks to a level where we must take extraordinary actions, including a radical reappraisal of how we profile for Muslim terrorists.

Comment :

You really believe everything the US govt tries to tell you ?

The US govt. knows that the human brain has not evolved to the point where propaganda does not work and fear is more of a human condition than any other emotion and both the terrorists and the US govt. play on the fears of people.

Now, if 3 different WMD scientists who are not part of the same organization and are not working for the US govt. or the military/industrial complex, tell us that it is possible for a terrorist to make a nuclear weapon or WMD, let me know.

Hesperado, you stated :

As an example of the latter suggestion, at the very least we should surveil, detain, thoroughly background-check, and interrogate with creative methods if need be any Muslim who sneezes the wrong way.

Comment :

The US govt cannot just pick out one group of people for surveillance.

The US govt. should pick out any hate group; whether it is the KKK, groups sympathetic to Timothy McVeigh or David Koresh, white supremacist groups, groups sympathetic to the columbine or virginia tech mass murders or a radical muslim group sympathetic to Al-Qaeda.

The US govt needs to have American citizens as its "eyes and ears" on any suspicious activity by any group.

but more importantly, the US govt should drastically change its foreign policy to approximate that of Switzerland that does not have the kind of terrorist attacks experienced by Americans here and abroad because terrorists are not born but made by adverse US foreign policies ; policies that cause the collateral deaths of women, children and babies in war zones, which in turn serve as recruiting propaganda for terrorists.

Worry,

In what way have the terrorists harmed the US govt ?

It would be like an ant harming an elephant.

If the US govt. wants terrorists to stop killing Americans, all the US govt. has to do is change its foreign policies to approximate that of Switzerland, that has not experienced the kind of terrorist attacks against Americans here or abroad.

Question,

Terrorists are made because you will not find terrorists being made in Switzerland to attack Switzerland, at least not to the extent of terrorism against the US or Americans abroad.

Also, every time foreign armies left a country, you will not find terrorists from that country following that army back home. (example: when the US military left Lebanon or Somalia, you do not find Lebanese or Somalian terrorists following US troops back home to the US )

So why does the US govt. instigate terrorism ?

Because the US govt is interested in keeping the fear level high enough so that the public does not question the trillion dollar looting of the treasury every year by the military/industrial complex and also

because the US govt is more interested in its broader strategic interests rather than a small group of terrorists who can never bring down the US govt. and the US govt. knows that, so the US govt. is more interested in looting the US treasury of over a trillion dollars or 68 cents of every hard earned tax dollar, every year, in order to spend money on its friends and supporters in the bloated, corrupt, wasteful, greedy military/industrial, pork laden, corporate welfare, entitlement complex and the rich and powerful in the military/industrial complex in turn support the re-election campaigns of their puppet politicians in the US govt.

At this rate of spending on the military/industrial complex, the US govt is heading towards insolvency and to prevent that from happening, the US govt will raise taxes dramatically and/or dramatically cut essential services like health care, medicare, medical research, pollution controls, repairing bridges, infrastructure maintenance, utilities maintenance, food safety inspections, poisons control, terrorism prevention, gang control, oversight etc etc etc

Great advice, AlaskanInfidel.

And it's frightening to know that someone like your ex-brother-in-law is still roaming the streets, assuming that he is still alive, that is. Good gawd.

I, too, received a death threat from someone that is now an ex-BROTHER, so I understand how serious and impactful death threats are -- especially from someone you know. Yeah, 8 years ago one of my psychotic brothers actually threatened to shoot me, my husband, and our four children in cold blood! To my knowledge he never murdered anyone before making that threat, but at the time he owned over 30 guns (shotguns and handguns). Fortunately, he is now a felon, so his guns were taken away because he was arrested a year later on arson charges by attempting to set fire to a neighbors house (crazy, pos!)

Anyway, it also frightens me knowing that my ex-bro, whom I want N.O.T.H.I.N.G. to do with, is still roaming the streets free and up to God-only-knows-WHAT. Plus, he only served 45 days in county for that arson crime; and even though his guns were taken away, I KNOW that he has probably purchased more guns from the scumbag that sold him other illegal weapons in the first place.

Robert receives constant death threats, so I really hope he heeds your prudent advice.

Be careful, Robert!

So, as long as they do not take over the U.S. government we should be happy about 9/11 and other terrorists acts committed by Moslems(citizens and non-citizens) on our shores? Actually, I have an even better idea for you. All Moslems who are not U.S. citizens should have their residency permits revoked and should be immediately deported. That would be followed by those who became naturalized citizens under false pretenses. Once that is done, there should be a moratorium on further Moslem immigration into the United States. This would be satisfactory. In turn, all but critical economic contacts with Moslem nations should be severed. Let Islam take care of its own, since it is the best of all religions.

Lou,

What some members of Jihad Watch do is insult Islam and then the radicals within Islam insult Jihad Watch.

The cycle of insults or hate will not stop until we can all become peacemakers, as Jesus said, "blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called children of God".

God will bless us in our lives, as He has blessed me, only when people become peacemakers and not haters because hate begets hate and its never ending

Yeeeesss!

Just made my day to know you are blessed but now please do all of us who have common sense and some idea of how the world really works a favor and just go away. Yeah, I know you think most all of us are wrong and we get that. And we think you're a fool and hopefully YOU get that. You're not going to convince us and we're not going to convince you. So, so long. Peddle your "love is all that really matters" mantras someplace else. You're certainly making no progress here, regardless of whether you're a Mohammedan in disguise, a pacifist to a suicidal degree or someone who thinks the Browns will make it to the Super Bowl next year. Ah, done here, as I am with you.

thetruthsayer, you stated :

Hey 45ch, do you think that the swiss minaret ban will instigate a terrorist attack on Switzerland? I mean you seem to be the expert in terrorism and what causes it.

Comment :

Answer is no.

Terrorism results from collateral killings by the occupying forces; for example : the terrorism by a small minority of American revolutionaries on American loyalists who were loyal to the British crown during the Revolutionary war.

Why did a tiny minority of American revolutionaries terrorize their fellow Americans who were loyal to Britain ?

Its called collective punishment. When the British killed Americans, the American revolutionaries took their revenge on Americans loyal to the British.

Switzerland will not be subject to a terrorist attack because terrorist recruiting propaganda mostly recruits from those whose families were victims of US collateral actions which resulted in the horrifying deaths of women, children or babies.

The 19 hijackers on 9/11 either had family members collaterally killed by the actions of the US govt in the Persian Gulf war or saw the horror on tv, experienced by muslim children due to the collateral actions of the US govt in the persian gulf war in the early 90s.

thetruthsayer, you stated :

I mean I thought that jihad was only a defensive action if one is attacked? How did the banning of the swiss minaret physically attack Muslims. Oh yes it offended them and therefore that will justify western agression against muslims, thereby provoking a terrorist act.

Comment :

Most muslims interpret Jihad as a defensive war but a tiny minority of muslims want revenge for the deaths of muslims in wars created by the US govt.

thetruthsayer, you stated :

You dunce of a human being, even if we stop supporting Israel and get out of the middle east, terrorism will not stop. This is a religious duty, nothing to do with policies.

That is a PC myth.

Comment :

Religious duty ? Are you saying it is the religious duty of 1.5 billion muslims to wage war ? The evidence does not support that.

Every time western armies left muslim countries, the terrorists did not follow the armies back to their home country. Example : the US military left Lebanon and Somalia and no Lebanese terrorists or Somalian terrorists followed the US military back to the US.

The US never experienced terrorism on US soil until the US govt got involved in wars in the middle east and ended up stationing troops in muslim countries like Saudi Arabia

thetruthsayer, you stated :

BTW, have you shared your views with any muslim clerics here in America and around the world? Any muslim leaders? I am sure they would be ecstatic to hear them and they would make you a poster child for their campaign against "western agression."

No hard feelings.

Comment :

All muslims I have talked to condemn the attacks on 9/11 and some of them do believe, as I do, that the US govt instigates attacks.

here is a long list of muslims condemning the attacks on 9/11

ref : http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php

I never have hard feelings, ever since I became born again.

Most people are just like babies, you have to be patient with them and if some of them throw a temper tantrum or insult you, just treat them like how you would treat a baby, by giving them a "pacifier" and never scold babies, even if they are 60 years old, because, just like babies, they do not know what they are talking about, so be very patient with them.

God has blessed my life because I have become a peacemaker and as Jesus said, "blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called children of God."

Thetruthsayer,

Before the US govt became a military power, there were empires that did expand beyond their borders and one of them was the islamic empire.

Its the nature of empires to expand but even at the height of its power, the islamic empire started breaking up because not all muslims think alike and the empire kept breaking up and today we have 57 different muslim countries with 57 differing agendas and none of those agendas is about expansion beyond their borders.

As for using religion in expansionism, all empires used religion as part of their expansionist policies, just as many US Presidents used "christianity" as the basis of the imperial expansion of the US from its original 13 colonies

This is not your website, we can do, and say what we please.

If you do not like it, do not come here.

After all, it isn't as if you read the web site anyway.

Wellington,

I am not here to convince anybody because I understand that some of the members in Jihad watch are trying to get everybody to hate muslims.

Hate is a dangerous thing and hate can lead to violence as Hitler managed to do, by indicting an entire race for the wrongs done by a few.

I don't want to see a non-muslim or muslim child get hurt because of the hate being spread here.

Hate begets hate and that is why Mr Spencer is receiving hate mail and this hate will never stop until there are enough peacemakers out there to bring sanity to this cycle of hate.

Since google and other bots are picking up my talking points, I am here for the larger Internet audience who are mostly moderate in their views ( not hateful ) and my contribution will give the moderates out there discussion points and hopefully affect US policies in the future for a peaceful future since hate never accomplished anything but more war and more tragedy and more terrorism.

You will be blessed by God if you join the growing number of peacemakers in the US, as Jesus said, "blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called children of God ".

You are completely clueless. Utterly. It's not all Muslims that most posters here hate, though I believe, like myself, the vast majority of those who post at JW think all Muslims confused. How can you not be confused when Mohammed, a psychopath and sexual pervert, is someone you hold up as the founder of the true faith? It's Islam that is despised, as it should be, just as Marxism and Nazism should be villified. And you don't get this. Not at all. You function in an alternative universe, a silly one, and so this is my last communication to you. You're hopeless. Bye.

Sorry...shoulda clarified...he's dead. I continued to carry as it became legal and I felt less vulnerable in general. I carry because I am responsible for me. I do not run for help if threatened. I may back away slowly, but no running.
I have drawn my weapon once in all this time. One shot fired and one pickup truck disabled.
Well...that's what he gets for tryin' t' run me off the road in my little Mazda...and that was 25 years ago.

islam is a lie and
Truth is killing it.

Wrong...sorry but...wrong.
There will be no peace as long as islam exists
They have had 1400 years to get it right and they have failed.

Cancer cannot be tolerated in any part of the body. And before you accuse me of hatred of muslims...wrong. I detest islam and what it does to free men and to those that are born in to the slavery of islam. muslims are islams victims...for the most part. The higher ranking muslims fare far better than the average muslim...as some animals are more equal than others.

islam, it is clear to me now, will never reform itself. Hatred will always spew from the mouths of their ayatoilets and will be practiced by the more devout of the ummah.

One would think that a billion peaceful muslims could control, change the supposed few that kill every single day, in the name of the "religion of peace" aka the Religion of Blood and Death.

Loving Nazis did not kill them or stop their genocide. Loving our enemy never won a battle or a war. We are at war, like it or not. islam has been at war with you and I before we were born, and will still be at war with free men when we are gone...unless islam dies first.

islam is a lie and
Truth is killing it.

Rhetorically speaking, Lou, to make a point. Just rhetorically speaking.

Wow...I just read a bunch of your other posts.

And may I say...no matter how deeply you bury your head in the sand, your throat will still be exposed.

You're willingness to ignore the Truth, re-write history, and re-invent the islamic religion according to your own limited knowledge of it is laughable and truly pathetic.

Take your "holier than thou" attitude of superior enlightenment and pack it. And don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining. I'm not the only one here that can see you for exactly what you are. You see yourself as the enlightened one, come to the camp of the barbarians bearing truth and enlightenment, only to be shunned for your brilliance and the light of love that shines from your beatific face. Your love and wisdom...wasted on the ignorant "haters" you find here.
No one here encourages anyone to hate muslims...but I damn sure hate islam.
Are you familiar with the idea of hating the sin, not the sinner?
Feh! Like arguing with a goat... I just thank God that morons like you are in the minority. My only worry is that a majority of them can be found in the White House.

islam is a filthy diseased lie
and Truth is killing it, despite idiots like you.

Alaskan,

Anybody can hate any religion for what it says.

I don't hate Judaism because it calls for the genocide of women, children and babies in Deuteronomy 20.

Hate only consumes your soul and many people have got cancer because once the soul is consumed, your body is ripe for infection of some deadly disease.

If you think something is wrong, don't be hateful, but in a rational way explain your position so that people will be won over by your rationality.

When people feel insulted, they will stop listening to what you have to say and concentrate on the insult.

I will never tell a Jew that his religion calls for genocide.

What I will tell a Jew is, to explain Deuteronomy 20 to me, so that we can have a rational discussion and not a heated exchange where nothing gets resolved.

Why did Christianity spread throughout the pagan Roman empire ? its because the pagans saw that christians were different.

No matter how much suffering the terrorist Romans subject the christians to, the christians never fought back or hated the Romans and so God was able to change the hearts of the terrorist Romans because when the Romans heard the Christians, they were actually hearing God talk to them through the power filled words of the Christians.

Lou,

Islam in very few parts of the world is equivalent to 15th century christianity, since islam started about 600 years after christianity.

What was it like in 15th century christianity ?

It was the century in which Joan of Arc was burned alive for being a "heretic", the Pope authorized Spain and Portugal to divide the world amongst themselves and the terrorist institution of the inquisition was begun by the church.

Yes, religions have reformed and even though christianity had a 600 year head start on islam, only during the 1960s did a christian nation, the US , give full rights to all human beings when Jim Crow laws were abolished.

Islamic countries like Malaysia ( even though Malaysia is only 50 years old after independence ) have much better human rights record compared to the same period after American independence when the US still had the terrorist institution of slavery.

Yes, islam needs to reform further but already you see numerous muslim countries that have secular laws instead of sharia.

And to further reform muslim countries, the US govt. should be having a dialog on islam with muslim countries, instead of busy selling them weapons and weapons systems for the benefit of the bloated, corrupt, wasteful, greedy US military/industrial pork laden, corporate welfare, entitlement complex which is looting the US treasury of over a trillion dollars or 68 cents of every hard earned tax dollar, every year

and at this rate of looting, the US govt will become insolvent eventually and to prevent insolvency from happening , the US govt will have to eventually raise taxes dramatically or dramatically cut essential services like health care, medicare, pollution controls, medical research, food safety inspections, infrastructure maintenance, maintenance of bridges/roads/levees, utilities maintenance, terrorism prevention, cargo inspections, gang violence prevention etc etc

Isabella,

Was Jesus a pacifist, when He prophesied that the Jews should flee Jerusalem when the terrorist Romans came to attack Jerusalem in AD70 ?

Wellington,

The reason muslims follow Muhammad is because compared to Jews who follow the bible, Muhammad's life was actually mild compared to what happened during Old Testament times where genocide was prevalent.

Why do people follow genocidal religions like Judaism ?

Its because they follow the parts of the bible that are not controversial and the parts that are controversial, they basically ignore, just as almost all muslims basically ignore the controversial parts of the Koran or Hadith or explain it as pertaining to the times when the bible/koran was written and not as commands for today

"Sorry...shoulda clarified...he's dead."

Thank God! ...and good riddance to bad rubbish.

I don't know 45ch. Would you say that Jacques Cousteau was a vegetarian or an existentialist? Or was that Jacques Rousseau?

45,

Only the ignorant, the foolish, or the perverse would lie about Judaism in defense of Islam.

Which are you?

(Or would you argue by example that the three are not mutually-exclusive?)

Nowhere can you point to any open-ended, universal commands for Hebrews to "kill the Gentiles wherever you find them," or "fight until all religion is for YHWH."

Ancient Israel was commanded to destroy all those remaining in Canaan's cities who resisted dispossession (a process begun decades before Joshua and the Israelites reached the Promised Land; it was a Divine judgment for great evil and a fate that Israel later experienced at the hands of Babylon for the same sins.)

From Israel would come the Messiah, Who committed no sin, spoke only the truth, healed the sick, raised the dead, died for the sins of the whole world, and resurrected. He preached "Love your enemies," praying even for those who were murdering Him.

On the other hand, Muhammad commanded his followers to enslave or slaughter all who refuse the "invitation" to Islam "until all religion is for Allah." He "sacralized" the violation of all Ten Commandments and the Golden Rule. What about that cries out "prophet of god" to you?

There's no moral equivalence between the two.

So, what exactly do you find appealing about a genocidal, pedophilic, raping, torturing, mutilating, enslaving, thieving, extorting, blaspheming terrorist who claimed, "allah made me do it, and you should too"?

http://amillennialist.blogspot.com

"Only the ignorant, the foolish, or the perverse would lie about Judaism in defense of Islam.Which are you?"

Which are you then? as that is a blatantly untrue

"Nowhere can you point to any open-ended, universal commands for Hebrews to "kill the Gentiles wherever you find them," or "fight until all religion is for YHWH."

What do you call the below? and tell me about Judasims laws for apostate Jews, (including Jesus)

Exodus 32: 3,000 Israelites killed by Moses for worshipping the golden calf.

Numbers 31: After killing all men, boys and married women among the Midianites, 32,000 virgins remain as booty for the Israelites. (If unmarried girls are a quarter of the population, then 96,000 people were killed.)

Joshua:
Joshua 8: 12,000 men and women, all the people of Ai, killed.

Joshua 10: Joshua completely destroys Gibeon ("larger than Ai"), Makeddah, Libnah, Lachish, Eglon, Hebron, Debir. "He left no survivors."

Joshua 11: Hazor destroyed. [Paul Johnson, A History of the Jews (1987), estimates the population of Hazor at ?> 50,000]

TOTAL: if Ai is average, 12,000 x 9 = 108,000 killed.

Judges 1: 10,000 Canaanites k. at Battle of Bezek. Jerusalem and Zephath destroyed.

Judges 3: ca. 10,000 Moabites k. at Jordan River.

Judges 8: 120,000 Midianite soldiers k. by Gideon
Judges 20: Benjamin attacked by other tribes. 25,000 killed.

1 Samuel 4: 4,000 Isrealites killed at 1st Battle of Ebenezer/Aphek. 30,000 Isr. k. at 2nd battle.

David:
2 Samuel 8: 22,000 Arameans of Damascus and 18,000 Edomites killed in 2 battles.

2 Samuel 10: 40,000 Aramean footsoldiers and 7,000 charioteers killed at Helam.

2 Samuel 18: 20,000 Israelites under Absalom killed at Ephraim.

1 Kings 20: 100,000 Arameans killed by Israelites at Battle of Aphek. Another 27,000 killed by collapsing wall.
2 Chron 13: Judah beat Israel and inflicted 500,000 casualties.

2 Chron 25: Amaziah, king of Judah, k. 10,000 from Seir in battle and executed 10,000 POWs. Discharged Judean soldiers pillaged and killed 3,000.

2 Chron 28: Pekah, king of Israel, slew 120,000 Judeans
TOTAL: That comes to about 1,283,000 mass murder.

"On the other hand, Muhammad commanded his followers to enslave or slaughter all who refuse the "invitation" to Islam "until all religion is for Allah." He "sacralized" the violation of all Ten Commandments and the Golden Rule. What about that cries out "prophet of god" to you?
There's no moral equivalence between the two."

Now you're being a hypocrite. You justify one genocide because you think it will save you, and say another man is evil, simply because your own theology rejects it? If your Messiah was sentenced to death by his own people, then you have no ground to stand on.

If Israel becomes a theocracy, tell me what will happen to the Christians and other non Bani Noach there?

Amillennialist, traditional Jewish belief regards Christians as idolators eligible for death, as well as other "idolators". The questions is, more and more people in Israel (40%) at the moment, are calling for a theocracy, and at some point in the future, it will be a theocracy if trends remain as they are. The new generation of Israeli's are more observant, not secular like the older generation. Didn't an Israeli minister recently call for a theocracy and have good support?

http://www.chayas.com/notsriissues.htm#money

The Technical Status of Christians & Muslims In Jewish Law - In terms of idol worship...

RaMbM’s commentary on the Mishnah is very clear. At a certain point in time (~1100s), Christian followers were clearly violating the prohibition of idolatry (in the form of the Trinity or Incarnate worship). This was not the case in Islam.

“Know that this Christian nation, who advocates the messianic claim in all their various sects, all of them are idolaters. On all their various festivals it is forbidden for us to deal with them. And all Torah restrictions pertaining to idolaters pertain (benefiting from their money is mentioned in the MT – see below) to them.... We deal with them as we would deal with any idolaters on their festival.”34

[CATHOLICISM] [PROTESTANTISM]


Can one be a Noahide & Christian at the same time? Path of Avraham Site
ANSWER: The quick and final answer to this question (documented by Maimonides) is NO. All of today's modern Christianity violates one or more of the 7 Noahide Commandments . To explain...

According to the Noahide Laws, the 7 laws which Jews believe to be binding on the non-Jewish world, the non-Israelite nations are also forbiddon to worship anything other than the Absolute Creator. One can find this in Hilkhot Melakhim u'Milhhamotehem (Laws of Kings and their Wars) chapter 9 in the Mishneh Torah.

Judaism holds that any beliefs or practices which significantly interferes with a Jew's relationship with God may, at some point, be deemed idolatry.

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/jewfaq/gentiles.htm
• • While it is recognized that Moslems worship the same God that we do (though calling him Allah, He is the same God of Israel), even those who follow the tenets of their religion cannot be considered righteous in the eyes of God, because they do not accept that the Written Torah in the hands of the Jews today is the original Torah handed down by God and they do not accept the Seven Laws of Noah as binding on them.

• While the Christians do generally accept the Hebrew Bible as truly from God, many of them (those who accept the so-called divinity of Jesus) are idolaters according to the Torah, punishable by death, and certainly will not enjoy the World to Come. But it is not just being a member of a denomination in which the majority are believers in the Trinity that is idolatry, but personal idolatrous practice, whatever the individual's affiliation.


Some European rabbis (presumably because of fear of reprisal from their Christian neighbors, famous for their violence to Jews) have gone so far as to say that worshipping God in the form of a man constitutes idolatry for a Jew punishable by death, but the Trinitarian Christian worship of Jesus does not constitute idolatry.

In truth, any idolatry for which a Jew is punishable by death is also punishable by death for non-Jews, including the worship of a man as a god.

Ami,

Did you read Deuteronomy 20.

There is no time limit or boundaries set for unlimited conquest and the subjugation of non-jews outside the promised land and no time limit for the genocide of all non-jews including women, children and babies within the promised land which includes present day Iraq.

I am not defending Islam and neither am I indicting Judaism.

All I am saying is that people choose what they want to believe in each religion and the controversial parts are either ignored or interpreted to mean that those commands were valid only during the time of the revelation and not as commands for today.

And that is why you will find almost all muslims today are not involved in wars of conquest.

Amillienialist said:-

"Nowhere can you point to any open-ended, universal commands for Hebrews to "kill the Gentiles wherever you find them," or "fight until all religion is for YHWH."

I proved you wrong above.

And anyway, even if idolators were not eligible for death (which you as a Christian or Messianic are) under Halachic law, it does not mean Joshu's genocide of the Caananites, and the subsequent genocide was justified, "Kill one, kill all humanity".

It if is justified once, it is justified for all.

Even if the comman for genocide in the Tanakh was for one time (which it wasn't) There is no difference between a one time command for genocide and one that is eternal.

Just because you believe in one faith, doesn't make the other one evil. They either both are evil, or not, and if you're saying Judaism is not, whilst being a Chrisitan, you're just a plain hypocrite.

Isabella,

Simple question : Was Jesus a pacifist when He prophesied that the Jews should not defend Jerusalem in AD70 against the terrorist Romans ?

DDA,

Did you read Deuteronomy 20.

There is no time limit or boundaries set for unlimited conquest and the subjugation of non-jews outside the promised land and no time limit for the genocide of all non-jews including women, children and babies within the promised land which includes present day Iraq.

So why do people follow Islam or Judaism ?

Its because people choose what they want to believe in each religion and the controversial parts are either ignored or interpreted to mean that those commands were valid only during the time of the revelation and not as commands for today.

And that is why you will find almost all muslims today are not involved in wars of conquest.

I will have no further truck with you. I wonder...how old are you? Have you been on the planet long? 'Cause yer comin' across like some twisted, brainwashed 17 year old kid, out to piss off his betters.
You get your ass kicked but good and then plow ahead with some other BS line of half assed thought only to get your ass kicked again. So childlike...
Well...rhetorical questions. I expect no real answer nor will I respond to your barking.
Do you think that in the years we have been here, that you are the first to pose these questions?
Do you really believe that you are the only one that has posted the crap that you now post and tried and tell us it's Truth?
You haven't a clue as to how many times the same crap you now spew has been spewed here. I used to enjoy engaging maroons like you...kinda boring though...answering the same arguments over and over.
You are in fact quite boring, predictable and good only for entertainment value at this point.
I'll watch you get body slammed a few more times... I'd give you points for tenacity, but I think it's stupidity, not tenacity that fuels your argument.

No islam...Know Peace
Know islam...throw up.

I will have no further truck with you. I wonder...how old are you? Have you been on the planet long? 'Cause yer comin' across like some twisted, brainwashed 17 year old kid, out to piss off his betters.
You get your ass kicked but good and then plow ahead with some other BS line of half assed thought only to get your ass kicked again. So childlike...
Well...rhetorical questions. I expect no real answer nor will I respond to your barking.
Do you think that in the years we have been here, that you are the first to pose these questions?
Do you really believe that you are the only one that has posted the crap that you now post and tried and tell us it's Truth?
You haven't a clue as to how many times the same crap you now spew has been spewed here. I used to enjoy engaging maroons like you...kinda boring though...answering the same arguments over and over.
You are in fact quite boring, predictable and good only for entertainment value at this point.
I'll watch you get body slammed a few more times... I'd give you points for tenacity, but I think it's stupidity, not tenacity that fuels your argument.

No islam...Know Peace
Know islam...throw up.

"It seems we have a rabid antisemite in the house, probably a Mohammedan sh*t-stirrer trying some tired old tu quoque of the usual kind, to wit, "

Look who is using ad hominem attacks, rather than address the points, which he calls "rabid antisemitism"

Anti-semitism?

He then desperately tries to pretend that its "stirring", when he feels a stone on the glass house he is inhabitiing.

The hypocrite Dumbledorsarmy said:

"Does he really think that the Jews and Christians who are regulars here - including some strongly observant Orthodox (you reading this tonight, Shy Guy in Jerusalem?) - are going to get angry and fall out with each other just because of a Muslim in a mask, trying to stir up trouble?

To all Jewish lurkers and posters - I observe that Hanukkah begins at sunset tomorrow evening [Australian time] (Friday 11th December). May all your preparations go well, and may you have eight days of joy and blessing."

Dumbledoresarmy doth protest too much. Of course he will not comment on the substantive JEWISH texts above, nor the website below. Nor will he explain why self hating Jews normally convert to Christianity (Israel Shamir, the nuclear whistleblower Mordechai Vananu) nor will he explain why Christians are more persecuted than the Moslems in Israel.

Jewish Israel takes a critical look at Israel’s alliances with Fundamentalist Christian groups
http://www.jewishisrael.com/

thetruthsayer, you stated :
45ch,

If you want to call me a baby and say I throw temper tantrums when I state the truths, then go ahead. I am not bothered by them or your lack of ability to see outside the box.

I will not repeat the history of Islam that I have posted before because it is obvious that no matter what, you will still want to believe that America is the instigator of all things.

Comment :

Being called a baby is not a bad thing because I love babies and you might not be as much of a baby as some others in jihad watch.

The US govt has not instigated all things but it definitely has not been a blessing to the world but rather its blow back policies have resulted in misery and death to hundreds of millions of people ever since its involvement in WW1.

Here is a glaring example of the US govt.'s instigation policies :

The US govt instigated Japan by freezing Japanese assets, helping the Chinese military against Japan and as the McCollum Memo from US naval intelligence and Stimson, the Secretary of War admitted that the US govt. did everything short of all out war, to instigate the Japanese govt to attack, since only if the Japanese attacked first would that unite the American people for war, since the American people did not want another world war since WW1.

Stimson, the Secretary of War confided in his diary after a meeting of the war cabinet on November 25, 1941 : “The question was how we should maneuver them [the Japanese] into firing the first shot without allowing too much danger to ourselves".

After the Pearl Harbor attack, Stimson confessed : “my first feeling was of relief ... that a crisis had come in a way which would unite all our people."

thetruthsayer, you stated :

While we did force the native americans off their land, and Andrew Jackson tried to force them to convert to Christianity, Christianity does not call for that, nor does it call for the global domination by waging war.

Comment :

Christianity does not call for empire or conquest, but that does not stop "christians" from conflating the Old Testament and the New Testament and mistaking Jesus for a warrior and earthly King.

Many US presidents have referred to God and they basically refer to the God of the Old Testament when it suits their war ambitions and refer to the God of Jesus when it suits their political needs.

thetruthsayer, you stated :

You stated 45:
All muslims I have talked to condemn the attacks on 9/11 and some of them do believe, as I do, that the US govt instigates attacks.

HMMMM, maybe you missed it when muslims all over the Middle East and America were cheering. I kmow I didn't.

Comment :

I know that christian preachers like Pat Robertson were saying that America was being punished by God on 9/11 but that is a tiny minority view.

I did see a few palestinians cheering on 9/11 but that was a tiny minority compared to 1.5 billion muslims who were shocked at the events of 9/11 and I did give you a long list of muslims and muslim organizations condemning the attacks on 9/11.

thetruthsayer, you stated :

While they want to use "western" aggression as part of their excuse to attack us, and saying that we are killing their women and children when they use them as shields, which I have not seen you comment about. What about the school children in Besla that were murdered by Islamic jihadists, do u want to blame America for that? The children that were killed on 9/11? That is a cop out and you know it. Wise up.

Comment :

Shields ? you mean when the Israeli govt collaterally massacred hundreds of children in Gaza ? when the Israeli govt knew that they were going into a very densely populated Gaza full of children since half the population of Gaza are made up of children.

There is no proof that women and children were used as shields and even if they were, Israeli intelligence should have known that going into Gaza would result in militants shooting from civilian areas.

Do I blame America for the killings in beslan ? Americans are a great and generous people and I have never blamed America for anything, but I have been very critical of the corrupt US govt.

As for the beslan siege :

The handling of the siege by Vladimir Putin's administration was criticized by a number of observers and grassroots organizations, amongst them "the Mothers of Beslan" and "Voice of Beslan" groups.

Some human rights activists claim that at least 80 percent of the beslan hostages were killed by indiscriminate Russian fire.

You say that christians are not following Christ when it comes to forcing conversions of native Americans, so by that same reasoning, should we blame Islam if some kids got killed accidentally by the Jihadists when the school was stormed by Russian troops ?

thetruthsayer, you stated :

you stated:
Why do people follow genocidal religions like Judaism?

thetruthsayer Comment:

Can you tell me when when Judaism called for the global military expansion of the world? Can you tell me the last time Judaism was used to behead people, cut off their hands and feet, or since Judaism has been around before Islam, that it used its "power" to expand militarily.

Comment :

Islam did spread through empire building, just as numerous empires expanded through war and the use of religion in inspiring their soldiers to fight on and win more territory for their king or queen.

The Jewish nation would have expanded since the command in Deuteronomy 20 was to conquer all lands up to present day Iraq and to commit genocide on all those non-jews living in those lands but Deuteronomy does not give a time limit or boundary limit to conquests and the enslavement of people beyond the promised land.

The Jewish armies would have followed all the commands in Deuteronomy 20 but Israel was under constant pressure from enemies from all sides and so its expansionist dreams were never realized.

As for beheading and the cutting off of hands and feet, almost all muslim countries do not punish criminals that way, today.

thetruthsayer, you stated :

As you will clearly see, Judaism is not that wide spread with many adherents and that is due to the fact that it did not spread like Islam. Through military might, enslaving people, forced conversions, and bloodshed.

Remember, like you said Christianity was around what 600 yrs before Islam and within 460 yrs after the inception of Islamic beliefs,Christianity was mostly wiped out in the Middle East and almost all of Europe by Islam.

Comment :

Jewish armies did not fulfill all the commands in Deuteronomy 20 and that is because Israel was being harassed from all sides by enemies and Israel was too weak to expand to present day Iraq.

Please give a reference to Christianity being almost wiped out in the middle east and almost all of europe.

It is true that half of christians lived under muslim rule, after christians and jews welcomed the muslim armies in liberating christians and Jews from the Roman and Persian empires.

ref : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquests

The numbers of Christians in the territories of Islam declined with the 13th‑century Mongol invasions.

Today, millions of christians live under muslim rule and they seem to be doing just as fine as blacks in America who still feel discriminated against.

thetruthsayer, you stated :

I believe that the Jews were living peacefully in the Arab world before Muhammed. They were living in Jerusalem before Islam.

We do not attack women and children, but hey casualties happen. The Islamic jihadists purposely attack their own and kill women and children. Think about that the next time you want to make a comment to my post and look outside the 4 walls of your house.

Comment :

Casualties happen ? In other words, the US govt will guarantee the death of innocent women and children in war, right ? and yet, knowing this, the US govt still wages war and has been waging war ever since 1776.

jihadists purposely kill women and children ? were they following the example of Muhammad or were they in direct contradiction to the commands in the koran/hadith regarding the killing of women and children ?

thetruthsayer, you stated :

I will one more time for the sake of "some" bloggers here, put the definition of terrorism up.

Terrorism: The systematic use of terror as a means of coercion.

There, the definition of terrorism.

Did Muhammed not use that against the Quraysh tribe when he attack and looted their caravans? How about when he had his followers slaughter innocent men, women, and children? How about taking the women and children as slaves when he found out he could get more out of that? How about the systematic use of terror his followers envoked upon anyone not willing to convert to Islam?

Comment :

whatever Muhammad did , the Old Testament did worse, so why do people follow either islam or judaism ?

People follow Judaism or Islam because they follow the parts of the bible/koran that are not controversial and the parts that are controversial, they basically ignore, just as almost all muslims basically ignore the controversial parts of the Koran or Hadith or explain it as pertaining to the times when the bible/koran was written and not as commands for today.

thetruthsayer, you stated :

I suggest 45 that you read more into Islam and not so much listen to what your muslim friends tell you. According to Surah 5:51 they are not to take you as a friend.

Here are just a few Koranic verses to show how Islam feels about Christians, if you call yourself that.

Comment :

All religions basically insult the other religions.

here are several references in the Jewish Talmud regarding christians :

(1) Kerithuth (6b p. 78): Jews called men, Christians are not called men.

(2) Makkoth (7b): (Jew) Innocent of murder if intent was to kill Christian.

(3) Schabbath (116a): Talmudists agree that the books of Christians are to be burned.

(4) Abhodah Zarah (22a): Do not associate with gentiles, they shed blood.

(5) Sanhedrin (59a): Christians who study the Jews' "Laws" {Talmud} to be put to death. (This is a minority opinion among Jews )

(6) Sanhedrin (59a) & Abohodah Zarah 8-6: "Every goy [non-Jew] who studies the
Talmud and every Jew who helps him in it, ought to die."( This is also a minority opinion among Jews )

thetruthsayer, you stated :

You stated that there is no proof that Islam calls for terrorism.

Qur'an:8:12 "I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle."

Comment :

here is a contradictory verse from the Koran : "But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in God: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things)." ( Quran, 8:61)

So if you take both verses together it seems that if the enemy asks for peace, the muslim army is obliged to give peace in return but if the enemy fights without asking for peace,than Allah will terrorize the infidel army.

thetruthsayer, you stated :

Islam has not been reformed to coincide with the 21st century and the human rights laws. It will never be compatible with democracy like Christianity and Judaism. Christianity went through a reformation period. Islam never has and never will.

Comment :

Islam in very few parts of the world is equivalent to 15th century christianity, since islam started about 600 years after christianity.

What was it like in 15th century christianity ?

It was the century in which Joan of Arc was burned alive for being a "heretic", the Pope authorized Spain and Portugal to divide the world amongst themselves and the terrorist institution of the inquisition was begun by the church.

Yes, religions have reformed and even though christianity had a 600 year head start on islam, only during the 1960s did a christian nation, the US , give full rights to all human beings when Jim Crow laws were abolished.

Islamic countries like Malaysia ( even though Malaysia is only 50 years old after independence ) have much better human rights record compared to the same period after American independence when the US still had the terrorist institution of slavery.

Yes, islam needs to reform further but already you see numerous muslim countries that have secular laws instead of sharia.

And to further reform muslim countries, the US govt. should be having a dialog on islam with muslim countries, instead of busy selling them weapons and weapons systems for the benefit of the bloated, corrupt, wasteful, greedy US military/industrial pork laden, corporate welfare, entitlement complex which is looting the US treasury of over a trillion dollars or 68 cents of every hard earned tax dollar, every year

and at this rate of looting, the US govt will become insolvent eventually and to prevent insolvency from happening , the US govt will have to eventually raise taxes dramatically or dramatically cut essential services like health care, medicare, pollution controls, medical research, food safety inspections, infrastructure maintenance, maintenance of bridges/roads/levees, utilities maintenance, terrorism prevention, cargo inspections, gang violence prevention etc etc

thetruthsayer, you stated :

I suggest if you feel that America is not the country of morals, freedom, democracy for all, has been so hard on you or your muslim friends, that we are worse than any other nation, I suggest you buy yourself a one way ticket and leave. You do have that freedom. I am sure America would be better off. Take the other muslim apologists and muslims with you.

Comment :

As I said before, America is a great place and Americans are a great and generous people but the US govt is corrupt.

But if I were to choose to live some other place in the world, it would be islamic Malaysia with its beautiful beaches, spectacular sunsets, simply amazing food and very friendly muslims and non-muslims who are happy to live under islamic rule with its anti-pornography and anti-abortion laws

DDA,

Is it hard to believe that a Jew can be critical of Jews and a christian can be critical of christians ?

Jesus had the most criticism of which group ?

His own Jewish leadership because according to Jesus, we have to remove the "log from our own eyes" before seeing the "speck in the other group's eyes" (paraphrasing the words of Jesus )

Question,

The Swiss are still safe, as long as they do not involve themselves militarily in muslim lands.

As for terrorists launching attacks from Switzerland, its a law enforcement problem in which those terrorists should be arrested and tried in a court of law

Demsci,

Hate is when :

(1) Muslims are called less than human or referred to as less than human as what happens in jihad watch on a regular basis ( example : referring to muslims as an infestation )

(2) All muslims are subject to second class citizenship as proposed by some in jihad watch

(3) All muslims are targeted for deportation as proposed by some in jihad watch

Hitler used all three tactics above to indict an entire race of Jews for the wrongs done by a few.

Criticizing Islam or the US govt is fine and should be encouraged because what we need more of is critical thinking and not propaganda from anybody or any religion

45ch, you advocate a 'feed the crocodile' approach?

I'll stick to taking the battle to the crocodile, thanks.

45ch : Hitler used all three tactics above to indict an entire race of Jews for the wrongs done by a few.

Firstly, what did the Jews do wrong in Nazi Germany? Other than being well educated, successful businessmen and wealthy? Wow, you have issues....

Race isn't a choice, whereas religion, or the supremacist ideology of islam, is a choice and the adherents should be treated differently. To say otherwise is foolish in the extreme.

Foolster41, you stated :

45ch said: "Terrorism results from collateral killings by the occupying forces;"
Ah, so I suppose the Mohammad cartoon riots, the death of Theo Van Gough and the death fatwa against Salman Rushdie never happened?
After all, no one was harmed in any of these incidents.

Comment :

I was talking about an organized network of terrorists, example : Al-Qaeda.

The Muhammad cartoons resulted in riots and almost all of the people killed were muslims in muslim countries , killed by the police.

The killer of Theo Van Gough was radicalized after the Iraq war and just like some members of Jihad watch blame all muslims for the wrongs done by a few, the killer of Theo Van Gough blamed the west and all westerners for the wrongs done in the Iraq war by the allies but even though he blamed everyone in the west, he went after Van Gough because Van Gough represented the worst of the westerners, the very westerners in his mind that collaterally killed muslim children in the Iraq war.

As for the fatwa on Salman Rushdie , it is the work of one Ayatollah out of 1.5 billion muslims, so indicting all of islam for the criminal behavior of one Ayatollah is not helpful.

All the other 56 muslim countries did not issue fatwas, so that is progress, don't you think ?

Also, if the Ayatollah was serious in his fatwa, Salman Rushdie would be dead considering the fact that he had many enemies, including those in the US govt since he wrote a book highly critical of US foreign policy, saying that the US govt was a "bandit posing as the sheriff" in Nicaragua.

Unlike the western Mafia that would kill entire families, the fatwa never targeted Rushdie's family.

Despite the threats on Rushdie, Rushdie has publicly said that his family has never been threatened and that his mother (who lived in Pakistan during the later years of her life) even received outpourings of support.

Also, long before the fatwa, Rushdie had already left islam and yet was not even threatened with death for leaving islam, so muslims have progressed from the days of killing apostates.

Foolster41, you stated :

45ch said: "What some members of Jihad Watch do is insult Islam and then the radicals within Islam insult Jihad Watch."
I'm curious, am I on your list of "some members"? If so, why? You admonish to "not hate" but say people can discuss Islam calmly. What is in your opinion the difference?

Comment :

I do not recall you insulting islam.

Criticizing islam or the US govt is valid but demeaning insults, calling for the deportation or detention of all muslims or referring to muslims as less than human does not help in reducing the level of hate on both sides.

Hate begets hate and it never stops.

Foolster41, you stated :

Wouldn't oh, I don't know- I'm totally spit balling here- starting a blog that demonstrates the hateful aspects of Islam in their Quran and maybe even for a side reporting on attacks by Muslims who quote the Koran as justification in your mind be hateful?

Someone should totally start that site by the way, I'd probably visit it every day. Oh! and there should also be a comments section too so people can talk about the articles. Hmm. muslimspy.com? Nah. I'll get back to you when I come up with a good name.

Comment :

I am sure for every hateful thing in the Koran, you can find a equally hateful thing in the bible, so why do people follow the bible or Koran ?

Its because people choose what they want to believe in each religion and the controversial parts are either ignored or interpreted to mean that those commands were valid only during the time of the revelation and not as commands for today.

And that is why you will find almost all muslims today are not involved in wars of conquest.

Question,

Hitler had the tendency to blame all jews for the violence of a few jews which included the assassination of German diplomat Ernst vom Rath on November 7, 1938 by a Jew.

In Hitler's book "Mein Kampf " , Hitler announces his hatred of what he believed to be the world's twin evils: Communism and Judaism.

In Mein Kampf, Hitler writes about a final war that destroys what Hitler saw as the "Judeo-Bolshevik" regime in the Soviet Union.

Hitler knew that some Jews were involved in the violent conspiracy to murder the Russian Czar, his wife and all his children.

Hitler hated the jews for their violence in gaining power because even according to Churchill, Jews played a part in the violent overthrow of the Russian Czar.

With the notable exception of Lenin (Vladimir Ulyanov), most of the leading Communists who took control of Russia in 1917-20 were Jews.

Leon Trotsky (Lev Bronstein) headed the Red Army and, for a time, was chief of Soviet foreign affairs. Yakov Sverdlov (Solomon) was both the Bolshevik party's executive secretary and -- as chairman of the Central Executive Committee -- head of the Soviet government. Grigori Zinoviev (Radomyslsky) headed the Communist International (Comintern), the central agency for spreading revolution in foreign countries.

Other prominent Jews included press commissar Karl Radek (Sobelsohn), foreign affairs commissar Maxim Litvinov (Wallach), Lev Kamenev (Rosenfeld) and Moisei Uritsky.

Lenin himself was of mostly Russian and Kalmuck ancestry, but he was also one-quarter Jewish. His maternal grandfather, Israel (Alexander) Blank, was a Ukrainian Jew who was later baptized into the Russian Orthodox Church.

Two weeks prior to the Bolshevik "October Revolution" of 1917, Lenin convened a top secret meeting in St. Petersburg (Petrograd) at which the key leaders of the Bolshevik party's Central Committee made the fateful decision to seize power in a violent takeover.

Of the twelve persons who took part in this decisive gathering, there were six Jews.

To direct the takeover, a seven-man "Political Bureau" was chosen. It consisted of four Jews (Trotsky, Sokolnikov, Zinoviev, and Kamenev).

Meanwhile, the Petersburg (Petrograd) Soviet -- whose chairman was Trotsky -- established an 18-member "Military Revolutionary Committee" to actually carry out the seizure of power. It included six Jews.

Finally, to supervise the organization of the uprising, the Bolshevik Central Committee established a five-man "Revolutionary Military Center" as the Party's operations command. It consisted of two Jews (Sverdlov and Uritsky).

Well-informed observers, both inside and outside of Russia, took note at the time of the crucial Jewish role in Bolshevism.

Winston Churchill, for one, warned in an article published in the February 8, 1920, issue of the London Illustrated Sunday Herald that Bolshevism is a "worldwide conspiracy for the overthrow of civilization and for the reconstitution of society on the basis of arrested development, of envious malevolence, and impossible equality."

Churchill wrote the following :

"There is no need to exaggerate the part played in the creation of Bolshevism and in the actual bringing about of the Russian Revolution by these international and for the most part atheistical Jews. It is certainly a very great one; it probably outweighs all others. With the notable exception of Lenin, the majority of the leading figures are Jews. Moreover, the principal inspiration and driving power comes from the Jewish leaders. Thus Tchitcherin, a pure Russian, is eclipsed by his nominal subordinate, Litvinoff, and the influence of Russians like Bukharin or Lunacharski cannot be compared with the power of Trotsky, or of Zinovieff, the Dictator of the Red Citadel (Petrograd), or of Krassin or Radek -- all Jews.

In the Soviet institutions the predominance of Jews is even more astonishing. And the prominent, if not indeed the principal, part in the system of terrorism applied by the Extraordinary Commissions for Combatting Counter-Revolution [the Cheka] has been taken by Jews, and in some notable cases by Jewesses" . (end of quote )

45ch, do you have a copy of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion by chance? I bet you do. I'm sure you also own a dog-eared copy of Mein Kampf. Clearly you're a raging anti-Semite.

One point: On the eve of the February Revolution, the Bolshevik party had about 10,000 members, of whom 364 were ethnic Jews. Hardly a majority?

Also, you completely failed to address my final comments: Race isn't a choice, whereas religion, or the supremacist ideology of islam, is a choice and the adherents should be treated differently. To say otherwise is foolish in the extreme.

Demsci,

Jesus criticized solely the Jews and especially the Jewish leadership and did not criticize the actual terrorists of His day, the Romans.

Why is that ?

Because Jesus had much more control over His own people than what orders were being given to the terrorists from Rome, over 1400 miles away and besides, Jesus was not a citizen of Rome.

Likewise, do you really want me to waste time by talking to terrorists thousands of miles away by internet, when I have a much better chance of changing the US govt through political activity right here at home ?

If we can make changes to our own govt. and our govt. does become more like Switzerland, do you think the terrorists themselves will also change their way of dealing with us ?

Question_Everything!, you stated :

45ch, do you have a copy of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion by chance? I bet you do. I'm sure you also own a dog-eared copy of Mein Kampf. Clearly you're a raging anti-Semite.

Comment :

No, I do not have a copy of any book based on propaganda, just as I do not buy anything the US govt. says unless it can be verified by competent people outside the military/industrial complex.

Was God anti-semitic when He punished the Jews on several occasions ?

Was Jesus anti-semitic when He did not criticize the terrorist Romans but He only criticized the Jews and especially the Jewish religious leadership ?

Criticizing some Zionists, especially the Israeli govt. is not anti-semitic, just as you criticizing some muslims does not make you anti-muslim

Question_Everything!, you stated :

One point: On the eve of the February Revolution, the Bolshevik party had about 10,000 members, of whom 364 were ethnic Jews. Hardly a majority?

Comment :

Not in the mind of Hitler.

Just as some members of Jihad Watch blame all muslims for the actions of a tiny minority of muslims, Hitler blamed all Jews for the actions of 364 Jews, even if most of the 364 Jews held prominent positions within the communist regime.

Question_Everything!, you stated :

Also, you completely failed to address my final comments: Race isn't a choice, whereas religion, or the supremacist ideology of islam, is a choice and the adherents should be treated differently. To say otherwise is foolish in the extreme.

Comment :

You are right, race isn't a choice, but which is easier to change; a person's religion or US foreign policy ?

Yes, both religion and US foreign policy is a choice, but which is easier to change ?

So criticizing US foreign policy is much more of a fruitful course of action than criticizing religion.

Yes, you should criticize both religion and US foreign policy, but I submit to you that it is easier to change US foreign policy than it is to change a person's religion.

Hesperado,

I very much want to be on your side, but you have not produced any study that clearly shows that muslims are more dangerous than non-muslims or that a network of terrorists are capable of conquering the world or changing the political structure of the western world,

but meanwhile, I submit to you 10 areas which shows that the opposite might very well be true, and that is non-muslims are more dangerous than muslims and here are the 10 areas :

Just as Jews/Christians do not follow the controversial aspects of the bible, muslims do not follow the controversial aspects of the Koran and the statistics prove that too.

Here is what the statistics say :

The problem lies more among non-muslims than muslims, according to every major statistics regarding violence.

I wish the opposite were true so I can be on your side, but I have to go with the facts and not emotions.

Here are 10 areas pointing to non-muslims being more violent :

(1) 1400 islamic terrorist attacks should be compared to the number of attacks by the US military on targets and the number of sorties run by the US air force every day since 2001 which have resulted in hundreds of thousands of civilians dead according to the Lancet report and that is only in Iraq and does not include the tens of thousands dead in Afghanistan due to US collateral actions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancet_surveys_of_Iraq_War_casualties

(2) More than a hundred million have died due to genocides in non-muslim countries compared to the genocides in muslim countries

http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/dictat.html

(3) in non-war zones :

I am sure you have heard of stories or read the news about your town's murders etc and most of them were done by non-muslims and probably non by Al-Qaeda, so you are more in danger from your fellow citizens.

If you were living in a muslim country, there is a good chance you could be a victim of a muslim but at the same time, the murder rates in a place like Saudi Arabia (rank : 61) is much lower than in the US ( rank : 24) and several muslim countries have lower murder rates than the US.

ref : http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

(4 ) In fact, the countries with the most murder rates, the top 12 are non-muslim.

ref : http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

ref : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

(5) Here is a site that records the fact that there are more non-muslims committing mass murder than muslims :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_murderers_and_spree_killers_by_number_of_victims

(6) you do not find American muslims killing "infidels" in America today and in fact all the killing sprees in the world are overwhelmingly committed by non-muslims

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spree_killer

(7) Compared to American muslims targeting non-muslims, many more of the non-muslim majority target muslims in America .

The targeting of innocent minorities for alleged crimes/sins perpetrated by others is common everywhere, including the US : In 2001 after the 9/11 attacks, Arab Americans, Muslims, and Sikhs were victimized in nearly five percent of the total number of hate crimes reported that year (481 out of 9,730), a seventeen-fold increase over the prior year.

http://www.civilrights.org/publications/hatecrimes/arab-americans.html

(8) Jewish militias forced palestinians to flee their homes during the war of independence in 1948 when the Israeli army committed more atrocities and killed more civilians than the Arabs did, in large part because the Israelis captured 400 Arab towns and villages, whereas the Arabs took fewer than a dozen Israeli settlements.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killings_and_massacres_during_the_1948_Palestine_War

Regarding genocides committed by Jews in Old Testament times :

A Jerusalem-based Holocaust Studies Professor Yehuda Bauer stated : "As a Jew, I must live with the fact that the civilization I inherited ... encompasses the call for genocide in its canon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history#Before_1490

(9) Here are the facts from the US dept. of justice:

American men and women who have killed their own children or loved ones or relatives or ex-spouses between 1976 and 1997 number at 116,814 ( annual rate of 5562 )

ref : http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/ascii/wo.txt

Annual worldwide high end estimate of honor killings : 5000 per year

ref : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing

Tragically, Muslims don't follow sharia as much as non-muslims follow the ideology of hate in killing their daughters/children, loved ones, intimate partners or ex-spouses or relatives.

No matter how much sharia is out there, the sad fact is that non-muslims have been more violent towards their relatives/daughters/loved ones/ex-spouses/children/intimate partners than muslims have been been

ref : http://crime.about.com/b/2004/10/29/parents-killing-their-children.htm

(10) Both violent and non-violent muslims in prison number about 9,600 Muslim inmates in federal prisons in 2003 out of a US prison population of 7.3 million, so out of one muslim (either violent or non-violent ) going into prison, there are about 760 non-muslims in prison, not considering converts to islam in prison since the crime was committed before their conversion.

ref : http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/03/02/record.prison.population/

ref : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States%27_prisons

Conservative estimate of the muslim population in the US taken from the Pew Research Center instead of the figures reported by the Council on American-Islamic Relations which reports 6-7 million muslims :

2.5 million muslims in 2009 out of 300 million Americans, meaning for every 1 muslim, there are about 120 Americans according to the Pew Research Center

ref : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_the_United_States#Demographics

So muslims in prison ( both violent and non-violent) 1 for every 760 non-muslims

Muslims in the general US population : 1 muslim for every 120 Americans meaning there are about 6.3 times less muslims in prison as compared to the general muslim population in the US.

Non-muslims in the general US population : 297,500,000 which is about 99% of the population according to the 2009 data from the Pew Research Center

ref : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_the_United_States#Demographics

Non-muslims (before converting in prison) in the prison population : 7,290,400 which is about 99% of the prison population.

If muslims in prison are 6.3 times less in number than the general muslim population in America and non-muslims in prison represent about the same proportion as the general population,so is it right to say that muslims are on the whole much less violent than non-muslims ? or even if the data is horribly skewed for some inconceivable reason, we still cannot say that muslims in America are more violent than the non-muslims in America.

Islam does not have a hold on muslims as seen in numerous muslims leaving Islam and Islam does not make muslims follow Sharia as can be seen in numerous muslim countries that do not have sharia :

Burkina Faso
Chad
Gambia
Guinea
Mali
Senegal
Somalia
Kazakhstan
Kyrgystan
Tajikstan
Turkmenistan
Uzbekistan
Albania
Azerbaijan
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Kosovo
Turkey

45ch :Was God anti-semitic when He punished the Jews on several occasions ?

There is no god so your question is pointless.

45ch :Was Jesus anti-semitic when He did not criticize the terrorist Romans but He only criticized the Jews and especially the Jewish religious leadership?

The Romans weren't terrorists. Did jesus even exist? There's no evidence.

45ch :Not in the mind of Hitler.

You're a mind reader?

45ch :You are right, race isn't a choice, but which is easier to change; a person's religion or US foreign policy?

Either. Religion is just a security blanket for scardy-cats.

45ch :So criticizing US foreign policy is much more of a fruitful course of action than criticizing religion.

To you, maybe, but I'm an Atheist and see that religion has caused more harm than any foreign policy. No, Atheism didn't kill all those people. That was Communism/Fascism/Maoism. Lack of belief in a deity has never killed anyone.

45ch :Yes, you should criticize both religion and US foreign policy, but I submit to you that it is easier to change US foreign policy than it is to change a person's religion.

As we have a democratically elected Government giving us our foreign policy we should be able to change it far more easily than we should change the mind of a theist. Superstitious people are by far the most difficult to educate. You're right there.

45CH, you impress me a lot. Sometimes I stand reeling from your blows. As truth-finding is more important than winning to me. I learn a lot from you, you inspire my thinking very much, thank you.

I learned from you the phrase: “Do not indict an entire people for the crimes of a few”. Robert Spencer explicitly tells us that he is not responsible for all the comments here. Neither are most posters, only the few are, so YOU please do not indict Jihad Watch. And for Robert and the vast majority of posters it is a strawman fallacy from you to say that they consider Muslims lesser humans or that Muslims should be subject to 2nd-class citizenship or ALL targeted for deportation. citizenship (I would defend them myself with every ounce of courage I can scrape together if these actions/ measures were tried).

About Jesus, my answer is the same as that of Question-everything as I am a Darwinist. But good question though!

I consider what we are doing here a non-violent fight over the best way to organize society; Democracy or Theocracy Islamic Style. America stands for Democracy in my view. Therefore I refer to our side and your side, as I theorize you may well be a professional Debater, paid by Saudi money. But maybe you are what you say you are.

Your statistics were impressive, thank you. But they validated my side a lot also. With Scaruffi for instance:
“Can we consider President Bush a genocider due to all of the civilians killed in Iraq under his watch? I don't think so, because the vast majority of civilians killed in Iraq were NOT killed by USA troops.”

And about Hiroshima and Nagasaki:
“All the evidence indicates that the second atomic bomb was crucial to end the war.”
To me such a relief, after all that Islamic innuendo about these bombs.

And then:
“Even today many in Vietnam think that the aggressor was North Vietnam, not the USA, at least at the beginning, whereas everybody in Afghanistan blames the Soviet Union for that invasion. Nobody welcomed the Soviet Union, whereas about half of Vietnam welcomed the USA.”

The Non-Muslims that you talk of, mostly, are certainly NOT Americans, or Democratic-country-citizens!!!

And when I said talk to the other side I was not referring to a stark choice between criticizing the US government OR the terrorist organizations overseas. I meant that you address in the same way you address us, the Muslims in Western countries and India, and their allies or apologists.

Hesperado

"The adherents of this sinister confederacy are mostly men reared up among the unhappy populations of countries where Jews are persecuted on account of their race. Most, if not all, of them have forsaken the faith of their forefathers, and divorced from their minds all spiritual hopes of the next world."

Halachically, atheist Jews are Jews. Unles a Jew is actually following an organised religion (converts to another) he is still a Jew.

Those atheist Jews were still Jews, if Churchill were more aware of Jewish law and what defines Jewishness he wouldn't have made that distinction. Besides, the Jews who were helping Stalin, even though they were atheists, they did take out their fury over Christian persecution once they were in power. They had Talmud's and Jewish parapherlia with them, even though they were athests.

Nice try. Ynet is an Israeli daily.

Stalin's Jews
We mustn't forget that some of greatest murderers of modern times were Jewish
Published: 12.21.06, 23:35 / Israel Opinion
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3342999,00.html

Within a short period of time, Cheka became the largest and cruelest state security organization. Its organizational structure was changed every few years, as were its names: From Cheka to GPU, later to NKVD, and later to KGB.

We cannot know with certainty the number of deaths Cheka was responsible for in its various manifestations, but the number is surely at least 20 million, including victims of the forced collectivization, the hunger, large purges, expulsions, banishments, executions, and mass death at Gulags.

In his new, highly praised book "The War of the World, "Historian Niall Ferguson writes that no revolution in the history of mankind devoured its children with the same unrestrained appetite as did the Soviet revolution. In his book on the Stalinist purges, Tel Aviv University's Dr. Igal Halfin writes that Stalinist violence was unique in that it was directed internally.

And us, the Jews? An Israeli student finishes high school without ever hearing the name "Genrikh Yagoda," the greatest Jewish murderer of the 20th Century, the GPU's deputy commander and the founder and commander of the NKVD. Yagoda diligently implemented Stalin's collectivization orders and is responsible for the deaths of at least 10 million people. His Jewish deputies established and managed the Gulag system. After Stalin no longer viewed him favorably, Yagoda was demoted and executed, and was replaced as chief hangman in 1936 by Yezhov, the "bloodthirsty dwarf."

Yezhov was not Jewish but was blessed with an active Jewish wife. In his Book "Stalin: Court of the Red Star", Jewish historian Sebag Montefiore writes that during the darkest period of terror, when the Communist killing machine worked in full force, Stalin was surrounded by beautiful, young Jewish women.
Many Jews sold their soul to the devil of the Communist revolution and have blood on their hands for eternity. We'll mention just one more: Leonid Reichman, head of the NKVD's special department and the organization's chief interrogator, who was a particularly cruel sadist.

In 1934, according to published statistics, 38.5 percent of those holding the most senior posts in the Soviet security apparatuses were of Jewish origin. They too, of course, were gradually eliminated in the next purges. In a fascinating lecture at a Tel Aviv University convention this week, Dr. Halfin described the waves of soviet terror as a "carnival of mass murder," "fantasy of purges", and "essianism of evil." Turns out that Jews too, when they become captivated by messianic ideology, can become great murderers, among the greatest known by modern history.

The Jews active in official communist terror apparatuses (In the Soviet Union and abroad) and who at times led them, did not do this, obviously, as Jews, but rather, as Stalinists, communists, and "Soviet people."

Even if we deny it, we cannot escape the Jewishness of "our hangmen," who served the Red Terror with loyalty and dedication from its establishment. After all, others will always remind us of their origin.

Question_Everything, you stated :

45ch :Was God anti-semitic when He punished the Jews on several occasions ?

There is no god so your question is pointless.

Comment :

There is no God ? So you believe that the very first atom came from nothing ?

Question_Everything, you stated :

45ch :Was Jesus anti-semitic when He did not criticize the terrorist Romans but He only criticized the Jews and especially the Jewish religious leadership?

The Romans weren't terrorists. Did jesus even exist? There's no evidence.

Comment :

Romans were not terrorists ? So what is your definition of a terrorist ?

No evidence of Jesus existing ? So every person you do not see with your own eyes, does not exist ?

Question_Everything, you stated :

45ch :Not in the mind of Hitler.

You're a mind reader?

Comment :

So what was going on in the mind of Hitler regarding the Jews ?

Question_Everything, you stated :

45ch :You are right, race isn't a choice, but which is easier to change; a person's religion or US foreign policy?

Either. Religion is just a security blanket for scardy-cats.

Comment :

Scaredy-cats ? what are they scared of ?

Question_Everything, you stated :

45ch :So criticizing US foreign policy is much more of a fruitful course of action than criticizing religion.

To you, maybe, but I'm an Atheist and see that religion has caused more harm than any foreign policy. No, Atheism didn't kill all those people. That was Communism/Fascism/Maoism. Lack of belief in a deity has never killed anyone.

Comment :

Religion has caused more harm than foreign policy ?

Foreign policy does not come out of thin air, does it ?

isn't all foreign policy also based on either religion or some other belief system which approximates propaganda ?

So all the genocides, mass murders and wars in history were not due to foreign policy ?

Question_Everything, you stated :

45ch :Yes, you should criticize both religion and US foreign policy, but I submit to you that it is easier to change US foreign policy than it is to change a person's religion.

As we have a democratically elected Government giving us our foreign policy we should be able to change it far more easily than we should change the mind of a theist. Superstitious people are by far the most difficult to educate. You're right there.

Comment :

Did you change your mind ?

Right above you said " Either " , regarding the ability to change one's religion or change foreign policy

And now you say its harder to change one's religion.

Well reasoned.

Demsci, you stated :

45CH, you impress me a lot. Sometimes I stand reeling from your blows. As truth-finding is more important than winning to me. I learn a lot from you, you inspire my thinking very much, thank you.

Comment :

Sorry, I did not mean to create the impression of delivering "blows".

Yes, I am with you and that winning is not important but the truth.

You're welcome. I hope I inspire people to not listen to propaganda but to weigh all evidence before making judgements and never ever to think that all people are the same, just because a small group of people are radical.

Do you remember the case in Texas where an entire community of people had their children taken away because of some rumors that some adults were having sexual relations with children ?

It was the case of the YFZ ( Yearning For Zion ) religious commune.

It took the Texas Supreme court to come up with the right decision and all the children were returned back to their parents because ( I am paraphrasing here ) the Court stated; even if 99 out of 100 adults in that commune were molesting their children, the state had no right to indict the 100th person for the wrongs done by the rest of the 99 adults.

So basically, every person is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law and no one has the right to punish everybody in a community even if 99 out of 100 people are guilty and punishing the 100th person for the wrongs done by 99 other people is wrong and unjust.

Demsci, you stated :

I learned from you the phrase: “Do not indict an entire people for the crimes of a few”. Robert Spencer explicitly tells us that he is not responsible for all the comments here. Neither are most posters, only the few are, so YOU please do not indict Jihad Watch.

Comment :

Indict is too strong a word qith regards to some people in Jihad Watch.

I am critical of some people in Jihad watch , especially when they refer to muslims as less than human and call them an infestation.

Hitler started to refer to Jews as less than human and so it was easier for the German people to look the other way when Jews were being rounded up because Hitler had convinced them that Jews were not really human beings.

If Hitler were alive today, I am afraid some in Jihad Watch would be mesmerized by his charisma and be swayed by his propaganda.

Here is a video of muslims; would some in jihad watch think they are not human beings ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwEOM2XNsp0&feature=related

Demsci, you stated :

And for Robert and the vast majority of posters it is a strawman fallacy from you to say that they consider Muslims lesser humans or that Muslims should be subject to 2nd-class citizenship or ALL targeted for deportation. citizenship (I would defend them myself with every ounce of courage I can scrape together if these actions/ measures were tried).

Comment :

I suspect that Mr Spencer and others here are genuine in their fear of Islam because some human beings always see the glass as half empty and others, like me, always see the glass as half full.

I am also pragmatic and understand that the US rendition program is helpful in stopping the next "hitler" from taking power.

I am glad to know that I can count on you to defend the rights of every citizen, including our muslim citizens.

Demsci, you stated :

Your statistics were impressive, thank you. But they validated my side a lot also. With Scaruffi for instance:
“Can we consider President Bush a genocider due to all of the civilians killed in Iraq under his watch? I don't think so, because the vast majority of civilians killed in Iraq were NOT killed by USA troops.”

Comment :

President Bush knew from CIA reports that there would be civil strife in Iraq if the US govt sent its troops into Iraq and he knew there would be a blood bath but he was not concerned because, just like terrorists, people in power are not concerned about what happens to civilians as long as the strategic goals are realized.

Is President Bush similar to Stalin or Hitler ? No, he is not, but just because he is not as bad as Hitler or Stalin, that does not mean he is not guilty of knowing that women , children and babies will die in every war, from civil strife and from the collateral actions of the US govt.

Demsci, you stated :

And about Hiroshima and Nagasaki:
“All the evidence indicates that the second atomic bomb was crucial to end the war.”
To me such a relief, after all that Islamic innuendo about these bombs.

Comment :

The war with Japan could have been avoided but the US govt was not interested in avoiding war because it knew it had 100 times the industrial production capacity of Japan, so basically the US govt. pushed Japan into war because the US govt did not want another power in the Pacific, even if that power only had 1/100th of the potential industrial production capacity of the US.

The fire and atom bombing of Japan in 1945 was totally unnecessary since Japan was already defeated as early as July of 1944 when Tojo resigned and Japan was negotiating concessions to the communists but FDR did not care about communists either killing tens of millions of civilians or that the crushing of Japan enabled communism to expand in Asia resulting in hundreds of thousands of US soldiers either dying horrifying deaths or being maimed, disfigured, deformed, blinded or paralyzed for life during the cold war.

Also, the fire and atom bombing of Japan resulted in US/Allied POWs in Japan and hundreds of thousands of Japanese children being terrorized, tortured and burned alive in the US fire and atom bombings of Japan and people like Osama Bin Laden must have concluded that if the FDR/Truman did not care about the plight of their own US soldiers captive in Japan and the lives of hundreds of thousands of Japanese children, why should Osama bin Laden care about lives when strategic goals were more important.

If FDR truly cared about the plight of US/Allied POWs in Japan and the lives of hundreds of thousands of Japanese children and babies, he could have easily ordered a cease fire in July 1944 when Japan was already defeated and fighting for its life to survive an invasion of the Japanese home islands.

Demsci, you stated :

And then:
“Even today many in Vietnam think that the aggressor was North Vietnam, not the USA, at least at the beginning, whereas everybody in Afghanistan blames the Soviet Union for that invasion. Nobody welcomed the Soviet Union, whereas about half of Vietnam welcomed the USA.”

Comment :

Please see the movie "Born on the Fourth of July" (1989) starring Tom Cruise, to get an accurate depiction of what the Vietnam war did to human beings ( soldiers and civilians on both sides )

When it suited the US govt, it supported the terrorist Jihadists in Afghanistan against the Soviet Union's occupation of Afghanistan and the US govt called them freedom fighters at that time,

but when the Jihadists turned against the US in Afghanistan, to get the US out of Afghanistan, the jihadists are now referred to as terrorists and not freedom fighters.

Demsci, you stated :

The Non-Muslims that you talk of, mostly, are certainly NOT Americans, or Democratic-country-citizens!!!

And when I said talk to the other side I was not referring to a stark choice between criticizing the US government OR the terrorist organizations overseas. I meant that you address in the same way you address us, the Muslims in Western countries and India, and their allies or apologists.

Comment :

I have written to an American islamic militant but after a few messages, he stopped replying to my messages.

It will definitely be very hard to convince any militant in the US because as long as muslim kids are dying in the middle east due to US foreign policy with regards to Israel, Iraq and Afghanistan, people like Army psychiatrist Nidal Hasan and US soldier Timothy McVeigh will keep killing Americans because they , just like some people in Jihad watch, indict everybody or an entire nation for the wrong or murderous actions of a few.

Its easier to change US foreign policy and thereby deprive terrorists of their recruiting base ( the terrorist recruiting base is all people adversely affected by US foreign policy ).

Here is a letter I wrote to an American Islamic militant :

Dear Yousef,

If you did happen to go to the website jihadwatch.org and see the hate filled messages, I apologize on behalf of all decent American people.

Those views are not the views of the majority of the American people who are mostly a decent and generous people who are ignorant of what our govt. is doing to them and the people in the muslim world.

There are dissenting voices in Jihadwatch.org from not only me but there are muslims who are allowed to express their views in jihadwatch.org.

Since you do not like clicking on links, I reproduce here a response from a muslim ( Abdullah Mikail ) on jihadwatch.org :

AbdullahMikail | November 12, 2009 11:08 AM | Reply
Beyond the condemnation of our secular US Law, we can even condemn what Nidal did under Sharia.

Read the rules for engagement in a justified legal conflict goverened by Islam and nowhere in them will you find it allowed to attack unarmed soldiers whom you had sworn an oath to protect...furthermore, I note there is a hadith about the keeping of one’s word even with an open and sworn enemy:

Sahih Muslim, Book 019, Number 4411:

"It has been reported on the authority of Hudbaifa b. al-Yaman who said: Nothing prevented me from being present at! he Battle of Badr except this incident. I came out with my father Husail (to participate in the Battle), but we were caught by the disbelievers of Quraish. They said: (Do) you intend to go to Muhammad? We said: We do not intend to go to him, but we wish to go (back) to Medina. So they took from us a covenant in the name of God that we would turn back to Medina and would not fight on the side of Muhammad (may peace be upon him). So, we came to the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) and related the incident to him. He said: Both, of you proceed (to Medina) ; we will fulfil the covenant made with them and seek God's help against them."

So here is a desperate situation, the Battle of Badr, where the Muslims where grossly outnumbered and in need of every fighting man available.

Two Muslims were accosted by the Pagan Quraish and, under coercion, forced to swear they would not fight the Pagan Quraish, their sworn open enemies.

Mohammad ordered those two to keep their oaths and leave the battlefield and not fight the enemy.

How important do you think it is that Major Nidal keep this word, this contract, this oath, that he signed upon the US Army granting his comission?

“I Nidal Hasan having been appointed a (insert rank) in the U.S. Army under the conditions indicated in this document, do accept such appointment and do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter, so help me God.”

What would Mohammad say about Nidal breaking this oath and murdering the people he swore he would protect? To answer my own question, I think Nidal would be in deep shit with our Prophet.

Rest assured, Nidal is in deep shit with our Armed forces, and he will receive whatever justice we can arrive at through the UCMJ.

Peace
Abdullah (end of quote )

Yousef, do you think one day, conservative muslim countries would allow debate, however crude, that is going on in forums like Jihadwatch.org ?

David (end of letter to an American islamic militant )

45ch : There is no God ? So you believe that the very first atom came from nothing?

So despite all the evidence, science-based no less, to the contrary, you believe in god. Read up on the Smolin Solution (Lee Smolin) for a far more acceptable theory on creation of Universes. If you REALLY think god created one planet for us to frolic on you should take a science course. If you think he created all the heavens and earth...you need help.

A Possible Solution For The Problem Of Time In Quantum Cosmology

45ch :Foreign policy does not come out of thin air, does it?

Please tell me you don't think it's based on religion? I'll give you a hint: P l t c s. You can supply the vowels.

45ch : Scaredy-cats ? what are they scared of?

Typically death. Being alone on a huge rock hurtling through space. Lacking direction in their lives....that kind of stuff.

Right above you said " Either " , regarding the ability to change one's religion or change foreign policy. And now you say its harder to change one's religion.

Oooh, you got me! The only reason it may be easier to change foreign policy as opposed to a persons religion is that we have processes that allow us to change FP. Only truly childlike people, in my opinion, are religious and they can be very stubborn. Both can be changed, it just depends on the intelligence of the subject and the amount of time at your disposal.

FP may have the edge but only just.

Hesperado, you stated :
45ch,

"you have not produced any study that clearly shows that muslims are more dangerous than non-muslims"

That's because nobody has thought it necessary to study that problem;

Comment :

Could it be because govts. know that terrorist networks and a tiny minority of terrorist supporters are not going to change any govt in any substantial way ?

but to keep the fear level high enough so that the US govt can continue looting the treasury every year, the US govt lets the rumors or fear of WMD (being used in a US city ) spread

and the US govt knows that the human brain has not evolved to the point of not listening to propaganda and that fear always trumps logic and well reasoned judgements.

So the end result is the rich and powerful in the military/industrial complex "laughing all the way to the bank" every year with over a trillion dollars or 68 cents of every hard earned tax dollar while the average American has to forgo a better and healthier standard of living as taxes are dramatically increased and/or essential services like health care, medicare, poisons control, pollution control, food safety inspections, medical research, finding cures for cancer, terrorism prevention, infrastructure maintenance, utilities maintenance, gang violence prevention etc etc are drastically cut because the US govt will want to prevent insolvency due to the yearly trillion dollar looting on behalf of the greedy, wasteful, corrupt, bloated military/industrial, pork laden, corporate welfare, entitlement complex.

Hesperado, you stated :

due to the staggering amount of violence committed by Muslims all over the world, by the outrageously intolerant and hateful things that so many Muslims around the world are on record saying in all manner of venues -- from mosque sermons recorded by undercover reporters, to mosque sermons brazenly allowed to be recorded by overt reporters, by Muslim clerics, scholars and pundits in writings often in prestigious settings such as Al-Azhar University, by mass demonstrations of ordinary Muslims; etc. -- and by the ghoulishly grotesque quality of much of the violence (rape of children in Beslan; sawing off heads while praising Allah in Iraq and Pakistan; beheading little girls because the beheaders wanted to "do something good for Ramadan"; etc., ad existential nauseam).

Comment :

You give a lot of information but no references.

Staggering amount of violence committed by muslims ? as compared to what other group ?

So many muslims around the world are saying hateful things ? as compared to so many members of Jihad watch saying hateful things and that is only in jihad watch............have you seen the comments in youtube and numerous other forums and websites ?

mass demonstrations of muslims ? how many demonstrations and on what are they demonstrating and how many attended those demonstrations ?

How many muslim preachers are saying hateful things ? and exactly what are they saying ? and how does that compare to any other hateful non-muslim group ?

Rape of children in Beslan ? and nobody among non-muslims rape children ?

How many beheadings in the name of religion ? as compared to how many murders in the non-muslim world in the name of hate ?

Hesperado, you stated :

"or that a network of terrorists are capable of conquering the world or changing the political structure of the western world"

I've already stated that the problem is not that Muslims will conquer the world, nor that they will change the West politically, but that they are trying, and in trying and even ultimately failing, they will cause more mayhem and misery which we could prevent if we didn't have millions of people in the West who think more or less like you.

Comment :

How are they trying ?

The way I think is that the glass is half full and its not as dire as some imagine it to be.

I am not saying that fears are imagined but they surely are irrational considering the fact that all murderous muslims are on the run from our US rendition programs

Hesperado, you stated :

"Just as Jews/Christians do not follow the controversial aspects of the bible, muslims do not follow the controversial aspects of the Koran and the statistics prove that too."

No, statistics show the opposite. Over 70% of Muslims in Pakistan favor the death penalty for blasphemy. Show me any other religion today whose adherents feel the same way in anywhere near that mind-boggling number.

Comment :

I don't know where you got the 70% figure because in Pakistan, I don't know of any cases where a person has been put to death for blasphemy.

How was the question in the poll worded: do you have the exact question asked of Pakistanis ?

And you feel that one day muslims are going to demand the death penalty in the US for blasphemy ?

The last time people in the US were sentenced to death for "free speech" was during WW2 when 49 soldiers were convicted of deserting their post.

You need to be little patient for some muslim countries to evolve and already there are numerous muslim countries that do not have sharia and even in islamic Malaysia, its only 50 years old and it has much more freedom than a similar period of time in the US , when the US had the terrorist institution of slavery, fifty years after its independence.

Remember, Christianity had a 600 year head start on islam and in very few parts of the muslim world, islam is about the equivalent of 15 th century christianity, the century in which Joan of Arc was burned alive, the Pope authorized Spain and Portugal to divide the world amongst themselves and the terrorist institution of the Inquisition was started by the church.

In the US : The New York Colony instituted the Duke's Laws of 1665. Under these laws, offenses such as denying the "true God," were punishable by death.

If blasphemy laws were still present in the US in the 17th century, is it surprising that similar laws might exist in a few muslim countries today since islam today in very few parts of the world is equivalent to 15th century christianity since Islam started 600 years after christianity and christian nations did reform and even then only in the 1960s did all Americans get full human rights after Jim Crow laws were abolished.

I am sure if you took a poll in the US regarding death for blasphemy, you might get a huge number saying yes, but that does not mean those very people will petition the govt to carry out a death sentence against free speech.

What about the other 56 muslim countries; do they also favor the death penalty for blasphemy and if so, how may actual cases of people being put to death for blasphemy ?

Because there are laws on the books, does not mean the punishments in violation of those laws would be carried out.

Here is a blasphemy law in the US which is still on the books :

Chapter 272 of the Massachusetts General Laws states :

Section 36. Whoever willfully blasphemes the holy name of God by denying, cursing or contumeliously reproaching God, His creation, government or final judging of the world, or by cursing or contumeliously reproaching Jesus Christ or the Holy Ghost, or by cursing or contumeliously reproaching or exposing to contempt and ridicule, the holy word of God contained in the holy scriptures shall be punished by imprisonment in jail for not more than one year or by a fine of not more than three hundred dollars, and may also be bound to good behavior. (end of quote )

Bottom line is : polls is about free speech and sometimes free speech is hateful but as long as it does not lead to violence and as long as death penalties are not enforced, we should not worry but if you can show actual death sentences carried out, then the US govt should take immediate action to make sure nobody dies due to free speech in any country.

Hesperado, you stated :

Aside from polls, we have Muslims demonstrating in favor of fanatical beliefs (cartoon riots, etc.). I have been reading about this for 8 years, I have read a mountain of data that shows that Muslims are egregiously more fanatical than any other adherents of any other religion, and the fanaticism is dangerous for us, not just grotesquely unjust for Muslims themselves. There's nothing you can show me to change my mind. So you might as well spare yourself the time and effort.

Comment :

Cartoon riots in which all the victims were muslims who were killed by police in muslim countries.

Compare that to the lynching of thousands of blacks by right wing mobs in the 19th and even in the 20th centuries.

Yes, some muslims might be fanatical about their religion, but you have still not shown me that they are more violent than non-muslims.

If muslims are more violent than non-muslims, why are there 6.3 times less muslims in US prisons as compared to non-muslims, according to their proportional representations in the general public ?

ref : ref : http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/03/02/record.prison.population/

ref : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States%27_prisons

ref : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_the_United_States#Demographics

Why are there over 5560 annual murders of children, spouses, ex-spouses and intimate partners in the US alone compared to a world wide (high end ) total of 5000 honor killings per year ?

ref : ref : http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/ascii/wo.txt

ref : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing

I can show you more areas where it seems muslims are not as violent as non-muslims, so let me know if you need further information.

Question_Everything, you stated :

45ch : There is no God ? So you believe that the very first atom came from nothing?

So despite all the evidence, science-based no less, to the contrary, you believe in god. Read up on the Smolin Solution (Lee Smolin) for a far more acceptable theory on creation of Universes. If you REALLY think god created one planet for us to frolic on you should take a science course. If you think he created all the heavens and earth...you need help.

Comment :

I asked a very simple question : Do you believe the very first atom came from nothing ?

Just answer the above question, thanks.

Question_Everything, you stated :

45ch :Foreign policy does not come out of thin air, does it?

Please tell me you don't think it's based on religion? I'll give you a hint: P l t c s. You can supply the vowels.

Comment :

Does politics come from thin air or is it based on a belief system ?

So you don't think all the wars was due to foreign policy ?

Question_Everything, you stated :

45ch : Scaredy-cats ? what are they scared of?

Typically death. Being alone on a huge rock hurtling through space. Lacking direction in their lives....that kind of stuff.

Comment :

So you are reading minds or did some scaredy-cats actually tell you this ?

What about those who commit suicide ? what do they believe in ?

Question_Everything, you stated :

Right above you said " Either " , regarding the ability to change one's religion or change foreign policy. And now you say its harder to change one's religion.

Oooh, you got me! The only reason it may be easier to change foreign policy as opposed to a persons religion is that we have processes that allow us to change FP. Only truly childlike people, in my opinion, are religious and they can be very stubborn. Both can be changed, it just depends on the intelligence of the subject and the amount of time at your disposal.

Comment :

So you have never had a spiritual experience in your life ? and you believe that once your heart beats for the last time, its lights out and forever and ever, you will never again experience a sunset, a sunrise, holding hands, love, your favorite food and for eternity its nothingness forever and ever like you were never born ?

so what do you do every morning you wake up ? do you thank yourself for not dying in your sleep and hope you can have one more day of your life to enjoy and do you repeat that every morning, thanking yourself for one more day and hoping that that is not your last morning ?

So you are fine with not existing forever and ever and every morning you wake up might be your very last day to enjoy since after that morning, you might not exist forever and ever if you die in your sleep, when your heart stops beating and you would not even know you died in your sleep.

have you ever put your hand over your heart to feel how hard its beating to make sure you stay alive and at any moment in your sleep it might just give up and you will never know you had died in your sleep ?

do you ever wonder every night before you go to bed whether you will ever have another tomorrow ? and what it is like to not exist forever and ever if your heart stops beating in the middle of your sleep.

Will there ever be a tomorrow ? On the day you finally die, I will be very sad knowing you died all alone and without God.

Question_Everything, you stated :

45ch, what you posted about the Japanese/U.S. war is utter rubbish.

How did an attack on Pearl Harbor equal 'the US govt. pushed Japan into war because the US govt did not want another power in the Pacific'?

Comment :

Its because of the sequence of events.

The US govt forced Japan "at the point of a gun" into signing unequal treaties in the 1800s.

Some in Japan did not ever want to be humiliated by the US govt ever again.

So japan started building up its military in order to be a pacific power and just like the imperial expansion of the US across the North American continent, across Spanish colonies and the Pacific, Japan expanded into Korea and China because Japan lacked the resources to be a strong industrial nation.

The US govt did not like this one bit because it did not want anybody in the Pacific having any expansionist agenda which was only reserved for the US.

The only way to break Japan was to instigate it into attacking US bases in the Pacific because the US govt knew a war with japan would result in the utter destruction of Japan, which proved to be the right assessment due to the fact that the US had an industrial production capacity that was 100 times more than Japan's industrial production capacity.

The US govt instigated Japan by freezing Japanese assets, helping the Chinese military against Japan and as the McCollum Memo from US naval intelligence and Stimson, the Secretary of War admitted that the US govt. did everything short of all out war, to instigate the Japanese govt to attack, since only if the Japanese attacked first would that unite the American people for war, since the American people did not want another world war since WW1.

Stimson, the Secretary of War confided in his diary after a meeting of the war cabinet on November 25, 1941 : “The question was how we should maneuver them [the Japanese] into firing the first shot without allowing too much danger to ourselves".

After the Pearl Harbor attack, Stimson confessed : “my first feeling was of relief ... that a crisis had come in a way which would unite all our people."

Question_Everything, you stated :

What evidence did the U.S. have that a peace agreement could be signed by the Japanese and honored? All we had seen at that point was an enemy that fought to the death.

Comment :

All the Japanese wanted was to be left alone but the US govt could not let Japan have korea or part of China, even though the US govt felt free to take a large part of North America, almost all Spanish colonies and islands in the Pacific including hawaii and the Philippines.

After war broke out, the Japanese were fighting to survive an invasion of their home islands and off course, they were willing to fight to the death to prevent an invasion of their home islands.

Question_Everything, you stated :

45ch :Please see the movie "Born on the Fourth of July" (1989) starring Tom Cruise, to get an accurate depiction of what the Vietnam war did to human beings ( soldiers and civilians on both sides)

That's hilarious! A classic Hollywood anti-war movie reviewed as an historically accurate example of war. ROLF!

Comment :

Did you see the movie ?

if the movie is not correct, why do we have, over the course of a year, approximately 500,000 veterans experiencing homelessness ?

19 percent of soldiers who served in Iraq screened positive for a potential mental health disorder, including PTSD .

Studies have reported that individuals exposed to stress are more likely to abuse alcohol and other drugs or undergo relapse

ref : http://www.drugabuse.gov/stressanddrugabuse.html

Veterans are prone to depression, PTSD, nightmares, alcohol abuse, drug addiction, mental illness, divorce and eventually either suicide or homelessness

Veterans face twice the risk of suicide compared to the general public.

ref : http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/13/cbsnews_investigates/main3496471.shtml

ref : http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache%3AMitePtW-jvIJ%3Awww.voa.org%2FDocument-Vault%2FHomeless-Veterans-Report.aspx+homelessness+more+prevalent+among+veterans+than+any+other+group&hl=en&gl=us

Question_Everything, you stated :

45ch : When it suited the US govt, it supported the terrorist Jihadists in Afghanistan against the Soviet Union's occupation of Afghanistan and the US govt called them freedom fighters at that time.

Oh dear......

but when the Jihadists turned against the US in Afghanistan, to get the US out of Afghanistan, the jihadists are now referred to as terrorists and not freedom fighters.

Here's an analogy. See if you can keep up:

Person A attacks person B. You see Person B getting hammered and you step in. Person A runs away. You help Person B to their feet and then Person B attacks you. Person B is no longer a 'victim' but an 'assailant' and should be dealt with accordingly.

Comment :

So what you saying is that , even though Person B is a terrorist jihadist, the US govt should have stepped in to help because the Soviets were punishing the terrorist jihadists ?

Question_Everything!, you stated :

You're the type of person who would have let Saddam Hussein have Kuwait in the hopes of peace.

Comment :

You are right. War is never the solution to the problem because war creates more problems than it solves.

I have never come across a war that truly saved more lives than it destroyed.

If the US govt had not got involved in the gulf war, we would not have had the attacks on 9/11 and the subsequent loss of hundreds of thousands of lives in both the Afghan and the Iraq wars.

If you want a one on one discussion, please go to the following site :

http://www.bernardgoldberg.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=31532

Demsci,

The problem is that the US govt. is more interested in selling weapons and weapons systems to muslim dictatorships and sharia states than trying to get sharia states and dictatorships to give more human rights to their citizens.

Some muslim countries are afraid of moving to full democracy because they are afraid that the islamists will take over in a democratic election but I remain firm with the conviction that incorporating islamists into any govt. will actually lead to more moderation than extremism, as seen in Malaysia where islamists are quite moderate compared to the dictatorship in Saudi Arabia that does not allow islamists to rule the country through a democratic process.

Here are muslim democratic countries with aspects of sharia but that sometimes restrict islamists from gaining power :

Malaysia ( human rights much better in 50 year old Malaysia, compared to when the US was 50 years old and had the terrorist institution of slavery )

Algeria ( in the 2002 elections, legal Islamist parties received some 20% of the seats in the National Assembly, way down from the islamist's 50% in 1991 )

Pakistan ( The episodes of sectarian violence have significantly decreased in frequency over the years due to the conflictual engagement of the Islamic militant organizations with the state's armed forces and intelligence agencies )

Bangladesh (The Government helped support the Council for Interfaith Harmony-Bangladesh, an organization created in 2005 with a mandate to promote understanding and peaceful coexistence )

How do we get more muslim states going in the democratic direction of the following non-sharia, democratic muslim countries ? :

Albania

Turkey

Kosovo

Azerbaijan

Bosnia and Herzegovina

Kazakhstan

Burkina Faso

Chad

Tajikistan

Gambia

Mali

Kyrgyzstan

Senegal

Turkmenistan

Solution is pretty simple :

allow all islamists, without sanctions, to fully participate in the democratic process and the US govt should push for muslim dictatorships to allow islamists in a free and democratic election process and I firmly believe that once the islamists are elected in a free and fair election, they will moderate in their views and eventually abolish the cruel aspects of sharia.

DDA,

Yes, I do think that democracy can moderate islamists, just like in Malaysia.

How do you explain the existence of numerous democratic non-sharia muslim states ?

45ch, your skewed or horrendously uninformed view of Malaysia is typical of most if not all of your posts.

Democracy and islam are mutually exclusive. Nowhere in the World today do we have a truly democratic moslem example of government.

Question,

The following muslim countries have non-sharia democratic governments

and all of them are much more democratic than a similar period of time after independence when the US govt was democratic but had the terrorist institution of slavery and did not let certain groups vote :

Albania

Turkey

Kosovo

Azerbaijan

Bosnia and Herzegovina

Kazakhstan

Burkina Faso

Chad

Tajikistan

Gambia

Mali

Kyrgyzstan

Senegal

Turkmenistan

Question,

You have to compare apples to apples and if you want to point out the defects in democracy in non-sharia muslim countries, you have to compare them to a similar time in US history.

All the non-sharia countries which are democratic are not perfect, BUT THEY ARE MUCH BETTER OFF THAN THE US DURING A SIMILAR TIME AFTER INDEPENDENCE WAS ACHIEVED BY THE US in which the US still had the terrorist institution of slavery and certain groups were not allowed to vote.

I'm comparing them to 2009 countries. That's the situation we currently have and to use a sliding scale then changes the 'apples-to-apples' to 'apples to hand grenades'.

Oh, and don't keep telling me what I have to do.

If you can't see why and how islam retards the progress of any potentially civilized country then you're not being honest.

Question,

Countries evolve and become more moderate over time, just as the US did and that is why I was saying to compare muslim democracies to the same time period the US was after independence.

Even though the US in some cases is hundreds of years older than non-sharia muslim democracies, the US govt.'s human rights record is far from perfect :

(1) In 2003, Amnesty International reported those who kill whites are more likely to be executed than those who kill blacks, citing of the 845 people executed since 1977, 80 percent were put to death for killing whites and 13 percent were executed for killing blacks, even though blacks and whites are murdered in almost equal numbers.

(2) As of 2004 the United States had the highest percentage of people in prison of any nation.

(3) "Human Rights Watch believes the extraordinary rate of incarceration in the United States wreaks havoc on individuals, families and communities, and saps the strength of the nation as a whole

(4) Mistreatment of prisoners : Examples of mistreatment claimed include prisoners left naked and exposed in harsh weather or cold air;

"routine" use of rubber bullets

and pepper spray;

solitary confinement of violent prisoners in soundproofed cells for 23 or 24 hours a day;

and a range of injuries from serious injury to fatal gunshot wounds, with force at one California prison "often vastly disproportionate to the actual need or risk that prison staff faced."

(5) Human Rights Watch raised concerns with prisoner rape and medical care for inmates. In a survey of 1,788 male inmates in Midwestern prisons by Prison Journal, about 21% claimed they had been coerced or pressured into sexual activity during their incarceration and 7% claimed that they had been raped in their current facility. It has been fought against by organizations such as Stop Prisoner Rape.

(6) The United States has been criticized for having a high amount of non-violent and victim-less offenders incarcerated.

(7) The United States is the only country in the world allowing sentencing of young adolescents to life imprisonment without the possibility of parole.

(8) In a 1999 report, Amnesty International said it had "documented patterns of ill-treatment across the U.S., including police beatings, unjustified shootings and the use of dangerous restraint techniques.

(9) According to a 1998 Human Rights Watch report, incidents of police use of excessive force had occurred in cities throughout the U.S., and this behavior goes largely unchecked.

(10) An article in USA Today reports that in 2006, 96% of cases referred to the U.S. Justice Department for prosecution by investigative agencies were declined. In 2005, 98% were declined.

(11) In 2001, the New York Times reported that the U.S. government is unable or unwilling to collect statistics showing the precise number of people killed by the police or the prevalence of the use of excessive force.

(12) According to a January 2006 Human Rights First report, there were 45 suspected or confirmed homicides while in US custody in Iraq and Afghanistan; "Certainly 8, as many as 12, people were tortured to death.

(13) In addition to acts of humiliation, there were more violent claims, such as American soldiers sodomizing detainees (including an event involving an underage boy), an incident where a phosphoric light was broken and the chemicals poured on a detainee, repeated beatings, and threats of death. Six military personnel were charged with prisoner abuse in the Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse scandal.

(14) In 2005 Amnesty International expressed alarm at the erosion in civil liberties since the 9/11 attacks. According to Amnesty International:

The Guantánamo Bay detention camp has become a symbol of the United States administration’s refusal to put human rights and the rule of law at the heart of its response to the atrocities of 11 September 2001. It has become synonymous with the United States executive’s pursuit of unfettered power, and has become firmly associated with the systematic denial of human dignity and resort to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment that has marked the USA’s detentions and interrogations in the "war on terror".

Amnesty International also condemned the Guantánamo facility as "the gulag of our times", which raised heated conversation in the United States. The purported legal status of "unlawful combatants" in those nations currently holding detainees under that name has been the subject of criticism by other nations and international human rights institutions including Human Rights Watch and the International Committee of the Red Cross.

The ICRC, in response to the US-led military campaign in Afghanistan, published a paper on the subject The legal situation of unlawful/unprivileged combatants (IRRC March 2003 Vol.85 No 849).

(15) Human Rights Watch cites two sergeants and a captain accusing U.S. troops of torturing prisoners in Iraq and Afghanistan.

(16) United States citizens and foreign nationals are occasionally captured (and at times claimed to be abducted) outside of the United States and transferred to secret US administered detention facilities, sometimes being held incommunicado for periods of months or years, a process known as extraordinary rendition.

According to The New Yorker, "The most common destinations for rendered suspects are Egypt, Morocco, Syria, and Jordan, all of which have been cited for human-rights violations by the State Department, and are known to torture suspects

Question,

Why do you say that muslim democracies with no sharia is regressive ?

Isn't it progressive when a muslim country is both a democracy and does not have sharia ?

Even Islamic Malaysia which does have sharia has more human rights than the US during a similar period after both countries achieved their independence from Britain.

A 50 year old Malaysia with voting rights for everybody and no slavery should be compared to the US, when the US govt was 50 years old with the terrorist institution of slavery and certain groups were not allowed to vote unless they were white and male.

Question,

Sex slavery in Malaysia is illegal, unlike the terrorist institution of slavery that was legal in the US in the same time period after both countries had their independence from Britain.

No democracy is perfect but at the same time, when numerous muslim countries have not instituted sharia and have instituted democracy, most people will say its progress in the right direction.

So tell me why numerous non-muslim countries are democratic and do not have sharia ?

Question,

In addition to the above comment, here are the sex "slavery" data in the US as of 2001 :

The U.S. government estimates that 50,000 women and children are trafficked each year into the United States

ref : http://www.uri.edu/artsci/wms/hughes/sex_traff_us.pdf

Question,

Do you know of any hard-liners taking over a democratic non-sharia muslim country ?

The general direction of islam in almost all muslim countries is moving in the right direction.

In Algeria, in the 2002 elections, legal Islamist parties received some 20% of the seats in the National Assembly, way down from the Islamists' 50% seat count in 1991.

ref : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Algeria

In Malaysia, in 2004, the Islamists lost seats to the moderate muslim parties.

ref : http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:LntaWn1AaHIJ:home.uchicago.edu/~slater/files/KRSA-Malaysia-Final.pdf+islamists+losing+power+in+malaysia&hl=en&gl=us&sig=AHIEtbSvI1XP3uBplzlbG2qVhOkAC_thjA

As you don't have the decency to answer my question to you I have no more to say.

Question_Everything!, you stated :

45ch, you stated that Malaysia has no slavery, which is clearly a fabrication, whether deliberate or not.

I just wanted to clearly show that your premise is wrong.

Comment :

At the age of 50 years ( after independence ) Malaysia never had legal slavery unlike the US when the US was 50 years old after independence.

I was comparing slavery as a US legal institution.

Saying that Malaysia has no sex slavery will be like saying the US has no murders.

There are crimes in both Malaysia and the US but that does not make the crimes legal, unlike the legal terrorist institution of slavery in the US that was sanctioned by the US govt.

Question_Everything!, you stated :

Now, can you agree that living a life based on a fable fabricated by a mentally unstable desert bandit with a penchant for pedophilia, misogyny, murder, lies, theft etc is bad?

This is a simple question with a yes or no answer.

Thanks.

Comment :

You believe everything written about Muhammad and yet you don't believe anything written about Jesus ?

Muhammad was a product of his times and according to his times, everything he did was legal, just as Mary, mother of Jesus being married at the age of 12 to a much older Joseph was legal for those times.

Muhammad could not have ended up with 1.5 billion followers if he did things that were considered evil.

Question,

Are you saying that muslims know that Muhammad was evil and that is why they follow him ?

Question Everything

45ch NEVER gives a straight yes or no answer. It is one of the things that convinces me he is a Mohammedan. I have asked him questions, in the past, to which any sane and decent non-Muslim, whether Christian or atheist, would have instantly given a straight Yes, or a straight No (depending on the question) and he has...dodged the question with a spew of ambiguous verbiage.

BTW, 45ch's assertion that Mary was 12 when she married a much older Joseph, has NO foundation in the core texts of the Christian scriptures, the Gospels and Epistles, which do. not. state. the age of either Mary *or* Joseph. In the absence of information, tradition has indulged in speculation, but those speculations *are not canon*. Even if one regards the canonical texts themselves as fictions, one must say that they - which are seen by Christians as having greatest and final authority - do not supply this particular detail.

Some of the speculation seems to me to be linked to the heavy Catholic and Orthodox emotional investment in the perpetual virginity of Mary which means they must assert that Joseph and Mary never had sex (and therefore, some have sought to make this [radically non-Jewish] behaviour believable by imagining Joseph as really elderly and therefore 'past it'; but *I* don't have to think that, because I'm an Evangelical Protestant and I don't think either the canonical texts or the profoundly Jewish milieu in which everything was happening, require that we think it. Indeed I'm going to shock the really traditional Orthodox and Catholics by saying that although I share their high view of the Incarnation (which of course, you as an atheist are free to dismiss as ridiculous), I don't see anything wrong at all in supposing that Joseph and Mary did have sex and that they had *at least* five children after Jesus' birth - since the Gospels refer to three brothers by name, and sisters, plural, i.e. at least two, who knows, might have been more).

Given what is known from the Gospels, in which Mary appears on her own at the wedding of Cana, for example, it looks as though Joseph died before Jesus turned 30; but that doesn't necessarily mean Joseph was years and years older than Mary, it could merely mean that a relatively young Joseph met a premature death from an accident (he was a carpenter, after all) or from some disease or other, e.g. pneumonia. After all, average life expectancy in those days wasn't that great.

(Actually, the fact that Joseph is described as *the carpenter* suggests that he was NOT a doddering old bloke at the time of the marriage or during Jesus' childhood).

I have pointed out to 45ch on several occasions previously that the Bible says nothing at all about either Mary's age or Joseph's at the time of their marriage, and that Joseph's predeceasing Mary is not ironclad proof that he was decades older than she, but as usual, 45ch will. not. listen.

(I might add, btw, that although in a previous thread 45ch claimed to be a 'born-again' Christian of Lutheran extraction, this tu quoque 'argument' [if it can be called an 'argument'] in which he uses a supposed 12 year old Mary and elderly Joseph to excuse Mohammed's marital rape of Aisha, rather suggests that 45ch was lying about his supposed identity, because no Lutheran evangelical would treat extra-biblical Catholic/ Orthodox traditional speculations as if they were established historical fact.)

DDA,

Mary could have been engaged as early as the age of six, as betrothals can be arranged before or after the age of 7

ref : http://www.newadvent.org/summa/5043.htm

As with regards to marriage , Mary could have been as young as 12, since 12 was the marriageable age in Palestine during the first century.

ref : http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm

Up to about the 17th century, Joseph tends to be depicted as a man advanced in years, with grey hair, often balding, occasionally frail and with arthritic fingers and a sharp nose, a comparatively marginal figure alongside Mary and Jesus if not entirely in the background, passive other than when leading them on their flight to Egypt.

Joseph is shown mostly with a beard, not only in keeping with Jewish custom, but also because – although the Gospel accounts do not give his age –

later literature tends to present Joseph as an old man at the time of his wedding to Mary.

ref : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Joseph#In_apocryphal_anecdotes

45ch,

You still haven't addressed my question but continue to ask and ask and ask, therefore, taking the wise council of Dumbledoresarmy, I will ignore you henceforth.

Question,

What was the question ?

Here is a video of a muslim saving a Jew:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90KVt2NzYQI&NR=1&feature=fvwp