Predictably, the article avoids naming any particular religion as much as possible. So we're left to assume that some of this is the work of a militant wing of lapsed Quakers. "Honour crime up by 40% due to rising fundamentalism," by Rebecca Camber for the Daily Mail, December 7 (thanks to Kris):
Police have seen 'honour' crime surge by 40 per cent due to rising fundamentalism, new figures show.
Honour-based violence, including crimes like murder, rape and kidnap has rocketed in London during the past year.
Reported instances of intimidation and attempts at forced marriage have also increased by 60 per cent.
A report into the scale of the problem by Scotland Yard found there were 161 honour-based incidents recorded in 2007-8, of which 93 were criminal offences.
But in 2008/9 the number of incidents had risen to 256, with 132 being criminal offences.
The latest figures indicate that the trend is continuing, with 211 incidents reported in the last six months until October, of which 129 were offences - more than double the number in the same period last year.
Police define honour crimes as offences motivated by a desire to protect the honour of a family or community.
Diana Nammi, of the Iranian and Kurdish Women's Rights Organisation, said the group is now dealing with four times more complaints relating to honour than two years ago.
She said: 'More women are coming forward. They are becoming more aware of their rights in the UK, that there is help available and they feel confident enough to report matters to the police.
'But I also think cases and violence are increasing.
'One reason is the rise in fundamentalism. The problem is increasing in communities around the UK.
'We are seeing a rise not only in honour killings, but also in female genital mutilation and polygamy.'
There should not ever be a single case of female genital mutilation in Britain, of all places, or anywhere else in the West. Period. The same goes for honor killings, forced marriage, and polygamy. Unfortunately, policymakers seem to have taken the attitude of the Ford Motor Company around the time of the "Pinto memo": the path of least resistance is to let a few tragedies slip by.
Wow, just read the article and islam is not mentioned once, although muslim is mentioned once.
"In July, a 24-year-old Asian man from Denmark lost part of his tongue and was left blind in one eye when he had acid thrown in his face in Leytonstone.
Police believe he was attacked over his relationship with a married Muslim woman."
I'm wondering if the "Asian man" was muslim or Infidel?
Jew_Lover - Crazy Islam
As jihad-mindedness increases, as the sharia-pushers ("allah's enforcers" as Nonie Darwish calls them) grow bolder, as more Muslim women don heavier and more obvious slave-rags, the number of ritual murders of females in Muslim families will also increase.
The more thoroughly and intensely and overtly Islamic a Muslim entity is, the more of its women it will kill.
The logical end result seems to me to be a society like Afghanistan became under the Taliban; a society that eats its women so voraciously that, if quarantined and prevented from stealing the females of its neighbours to make up its self-inflicted woman-deficit, it would probably, over time, destroy them all.
The 169 page report (2008) by CSE :
"Crimes of the Community: Honour-based Violence in the UK"
concludes:-
"Most of the honour killings known to have occurred in the
UK appear to have been carried out be people of South Asian origin.
"Most of these murders are carried out by Muslims from Pakistan and Bangladesh.
"Hindus and Sikhs also carry out honour killings
but seemingly at a proportionally lower rate.
"Although many
– and perhaps most – honour-related murders are carried out
by first-generation immigrants to the UK, an increasing number
also involve people born and raised in Britain.
"Honour killings
by South Asians occur nationwide."
- The full CSE report is available in PDF format here:
http://www.socialcohesion.co.uk/files/1229624550_1.pdf
"Honour" crimes are up?
Honour, Honour. This is good news surely.
It is the height of cultural arrogance to
1) import millions of people from another culture and presume they won't be bringing their cultural pathologies with them
2) obsequiously validate imported cultures while at the same time demonizing the native culture...and then being mystified that the "other" is uninterested in assimilation
PS - Marisol, let's give Ford a break these days, shall we? They were the only one of the big three to refuse bail-out money and keep their company in private hands...and are now using their own thrift and guile to turn a profit.
As a British person I am not suprised that the muslim savages import thier hienous practices with them. The fact the virtually all arms of the state ignore, or treat these instances as one-offs and due to the infamous "its cultural innit" school of thought as proffered by the muslim apologists and muslims themselves is somehow excused even though these practices break virtually every law in the book. This is a crime against British society - not to mention the unfortunate victims. When we had the Baby P scandal in Britain, the press could not get enough of it. Investigations, calls for a public inquiry, outrage, shock, horror and the rest of it. BUT when its Muslims committing savage and outrageous acts against each other and also let us not forget the wider society nothing is said. I am very suprised that the ineptly named "Social Cohesion Unit" was allowed to get away with publishing this report. I wonder how many prosecutions there have been and what the sentences were. Where are all the outraged feminists ? We must end ALL Muslum immigration NOW, Deport terrorist subjects along with thier entire families, have a complete overhaul of the social security system to stop Poligamy, prosecute to the full extent of the law those that practice the latter, strip citizenship from naturalised Muslims or others who commit "honor killing" and deport them to thier country of origin & abrogate from the ineptly named Human Rights Act. That just for starters, can onyone add to this list - I certainly could !
OT but Robert speaking of Christian fundamentalism above reminds me that I heard a snippet on the radio last week of an interview with the priest, Fr Sinnott, who was kidnapped in the Philippines recently.
The interviewer asked him if there were tensions between Christians and Muslims in Mindanao where he had been working. (He's in Ireland on a month-long break at the moment.)
Yes there are, he said, but was quick to add 'but there are fundamentalists on both sides.'
Now I don't think he was prepared for the following question: 'And how does this Christian fundamentalism manifest itself?'
With bated breath I waited for his answer.
His answer: 'Well,they're very suspicious of the Muslims, and fearful of them.'
So, Christian fundamentalism in the restive southern part of the Philippines consists of fear and suspicion of Muslims!!
Ericthekuffar, as a fellow Brit I agree completely with you. In the UK we have possibly the most advanced women's rights in the world and it boggles my mind that the police, the judiciary, politicians and the media let these monsters get off so lightly with treating women worse than anything humanly imaginable.
I hope there are publicly funded women's refuge centres specifically for the victims of honour crime, but something tells me that those with the power to do that - local councils in heavily muslim areas - are overrun by the very men perpetuating the view of women that leads to honour crime, so helping women wouldn't be very high on their agenda!
If there were private charities devoted to that kind of thing I would want to help out, but something tells me that muslim women wouldn't want to be condescended to by a filthy kuffir broad because we "just don't understand."
You know, I was thinkin gof writing an essay on how Dr Who is probably one un-PC thing that slipped by onto the BBC (asny reference it makes tends to be towards Western history - New Byzantine Empire, a reference to a rebuilt Roman empire, etc) ... and on how Daleks are sort of little metal Muslims, and Cybermen possibly their PC/MC supporters.
Army of Ghosts/Doomsday, interestingly enough, showed the Cybermen trying to make an alliance with the Daleks, which the Daleks flatly refused.
Taking into account the polls the other day, yeah, I'd say the Brits are getting good and fed up. the question is, how long will it be before something breaks?
Where is Nancy Aisha Pelosi on this issue?
Christian fundamentalist - someone who loves their neighbor to the point of being an overbearing pain-in-the-ass goody-two shoes. Think Homer Simpson's neighbor Ned Flanders. Yeah, that behavior is a real problem all right.
Obviously, he could not have been a muslim. Adultery is permissible for a muslim man. The acid would have been thrown in the woman's face...as it lay separated from her body for bringing shame to her husband. Honor killing of course.
Alleycat, thanks for your comment. I believe there are refuges and suchlike for these poor women. As to how good they are I don't know. However there have been instances of women going to the Police and the police handing them back to the "community" as they treat incidents as a domestic. I just did a websearch and there are organisations dealing with these issues. Personally, I think the issues are not so much just about the barbaric treatment of women as such. But the whole issue of Muslim immigration, assimilation, or lack of it and wider issues regarding both local and central government and its handling of what, at this time is a significant portion of the population.
'Well,they're very suspicious of the Muslims, and fearful of them.'
This is outrageous ! Why on earth would any "people of the book" such as Christians and Jews be fearful of the religion of peace ? It's Islamophobia plain and simple. Don't you understand that its only a minority of muslims who burn down churches, rape, murder and torture people and are anti-democratic ? Don't you understand that the majority of muslims are moderate ? Don't you understand that all of what I have just said is a load of baloney ?
Eric, you're right, it's the inability of the authorities at every level to deal with an unprecedented level of immigration (unprecedented in both the sheer numbers and difference in values and attitudes of the imported Labour voting-base). Whether it's politicians who don't want to risk being unseated at the next election, police who are too afraid to stop a crime being committed lest they be sued for 'racial' harrassment or history teachers who can no longer teach the Holocaust without brainwashed muslim kids shrieking about how it's a Zionist conspiracy, the silence is deafening and the lack of action is terrifying.
The few protests that have happened (EDL etc.) have been spun by the media to ensure that the combination of apathy and paralysing fear of being seen to be intolerant makes people not stand up against such hateful behaviour.
That said...we're still here, right? We can still talk about it freely and we know what we're up against. I for one (and I'm sure everyone here does the same) try my best to warn people in casual conversation about the threat of islam, so we mustn't give up hope yet!
First of all, under new guidlines, the police can report an honor crime even if the victim doesn't report it!:
“Hundreds more so-called 'honour' crimes could be recorded by police under a drive launched today to bring offenders to justice. Officers will be issued new guidance telling them to assume such a crime has been committed in more circumstances. This will include recording an 'honour' crime in cases where there is only a small amount of information or even when a victim has not reported it.”
Press Association Mediapoint
September 23, 2009 Wednesday 3:27 AM BST
DRIVE TO CRACK DOWN ON 'HONOUR' CRIMES
BYLINE: Chris Greenwood, Press Association Crime Correspondent
In 2001, about 88,000 cases of domestic violence were recorded by the MPS (44,000 for 6 months):
http://www.met.police.uk/dcf/files/domestic_violence.pdf
So there are 88,000 cases of domestic violence, but the only thing that matters is honour based violence. A couple hundred cases of honour based violence makes Muslims a sick society, even if that society overall commits 88,000 cases of domestic violence every year. That's funny.
How disgusting & cowardly of the new media like the Daily Mail that they can print only the word "fundamentalism" and not accurately "Islamic fundamentalism", even when it is clear. There is something very wrong in a society when its news media feels it must avoid writing the obvious.
Honor killings and violence are very much akin to the terror bombings you have seen reported in the news today, only on a domestic scale using violence and fear to enforce Islamic social norms on women and families. Muslims are creating a parallel society in the west, they are using domestic terror as a means to enforce these norms. Domestic terror is merely another method Muslims will use to eventually install sharia norms upon us all. It is important to put this in a proper perspective, it is a form of terrorism, unlike the garden variety of domestic violence. How many acts of domestic terror will Muslims need to act out in order to instill enough fear to enforce their Islamic norms domestically? Not many.
Dave742 : So there are 88,000 cases of domestic violence, but the only thing that matters is honour based violence. A couple hundred cases of honour based violence makes Muslims a sick society, even if that society overall commits 88,000 cases of domestic violence every year. That's funny.
If you can't differentiate between domestic violence and honor killings then that would be where the humor really lies.
What percentage of the population are moslem? What percentage of the moslem population are committing both?
Ahahahahahahaha........right?
Question everything:
[If you can't differentiate between domestic violence and honor killings then that would be where the humor really lies.]
I guess Scotland Yard and I are in the same boat:
"The MPS deals with so-called ‘honour’ based abuse and violence as forms of [domestic violence,]."
http://www.met.police.uk/dcf/files/ES_Gender_Report_April_08_12_font.doc
Join the BNP, like I have. Enough is enough.
ethoman:
Can you give me an example of what an incidence of "domestic terror" would be?
Yup you guys are in the same boat, Scotland Yard due to PC social norms retarding their ability to apply a reasoned analysis, and you for a different reason, which would be a desire to enable domestic terror through obsfucation, or perhaps it is more something more selfish?
I already explained it well enough, stop playing stupid ... you are playing right?
alleycat, the EDL have absolutely nothing to do with the BNP in fact any member(s) of the BNP have been told they will be expeled for supporting in any way this Marxist spoiler group. I repeat they have nothing to do with the BNP and are a government funded organisation. How the hell can they have the finances to have such a sophisticated website and network in a number of months when we are scratching and scraping for funds ? It begs a big question. We have around 15000 members all giving the maximum they can afford, me included. These EDL members are nothing more than stooges. By the way I have tried to donate money to this website (when I have it) but seem not to be able to do so because of some sort of prohibition. Anyway. Peace !
No, I am not. Are the Muslims going to institute Sharia law in the West by committing honor crimes, or by bombing stuff?
Doesn't have to be either or, just look at the Middle East ... I don't have time for your stupid game. Seriously.
It's not a game. I just don't understand how Muslims commtting honor crimes will convince the rest of the population to submit to Sharia law. I know you are busy, but this seems important, and I think we should be warned.
I've thought seriously about joining but I can't risk it because I'm still going through the recruitment process to join the police, and as we know in our lovely democratic country, it's verboten to be a member of certain legal political parties when you work for the police!
That doesn't surprise me about the EDL, actually - even if it was genuine to begin with it's unlikely that it wouldn't be infiltrated. Ho-hum...
Intestingly this article was also on the online version of the Daily Mail but it did'nt seem to stay up very long.They asked for comment but then swooch, or so it seemed it was gone.happy days!
dave742 wrote:
"I just don't understand how Muslims commtting honor crimes will convince the rest of the population to submit to Sharia law."
dave742 unwittingly raises a good question, which in my estimation uncovers an incoherency in the concern about stealth jihad, and about modern Islamic expansionism in general.
I don't think it's helpful for the still inchoate anti-Islam movement to be enunciating & articulating a concern that Muslims will conquer the West, whether through violent jihad or stealth jihad (or, more logically, a combination of the two), if we don't stop them.
Rather, our appropriate enunciation & articulation should be that Muslims are trying to conquer the West, through a combination of violent jihad and stealth jihad, and the more they try, two grim problems increase for us:
1) increasing social disturbance of various types of violence, far surpassing mere criminal violence and attaining the level of an intifada -- basically ongoing guerilla war, which Israel has had to endure for 50 years -- with an ever-present threat of horrific attacks using WMDs on mass populations since the designs and rhetoric of the jihadists are not static, but have an internally escalating dynamic of politico-apocalyptic mass-murderous fanaticism;
2) intimately related to #1, an increasing destabilization of our Western societies that may well tend to force a degeneration into either civil conflicts, or measures against all Muslims that idiots like dave742 are constantly afraid we white Westerners will do out of the darkness of our racist hearts -- his idiocy consisting precisely in his inability to see that the best way to prevent such totalistic measures against all Muslims in that increasingly volatile and unstable future is for us, now, or as soon as possible, to take measures that, while still repellant to his preciously liberal sensibilities, will be far more humane in the long run than what we will be forced to do as our societies, in order to protect their people and infrastructure, will increasingly become states of martial law under siege.
Muslims don't ever have to succeed in their ultimate, and ancient, goal of apocalyptic expansionism: all they have to do is fanatically try, to cause the degree of mayhem which we the West should not have to tolerate -- and will not tolerate, once we awake from our PC MC fog. The sooner we awake from that fog, and take the rationally appropriate measures that logically flow from it, the better it will be for all concerned, non-Muslims and Muslims alike. It is idiots like dave742 and millions like him who, in embodying the resistance to this awakening, are helping to make the condition worse, and thus the eventual solutions worse.
Hesperado:
In the early days of Islam, did Muslims spread their belief by moving small numbers of people into neighboring kingdoms, having them commit honor crimes, and then making them adopt Sharia law? I thought they just invaded. Was "stealth jihad" ever used to take over another culture? Or is this a new technique?
It is simple really, just like Mohammed says there is no compIt is simple really, just like Mohammed says there is no “compulsion in religion”. He doesn’t mean that people can’t be forced by violence to conform to Islamic norms, and traditions. At a micro-cosmic social level this terror starts with each nuclear family unit, establishing a basis for Islamic norms to be perpetuated through time at a higher mass societal level. As minority Islamic populations grow they will be able to effect pressure on the non-Islamic society to accept their norms in time, but only if Muslims act as a unit maintaining those Islamic norms. First and foremost control must be gotten and maintained amongst Muslims to create the parallel society in the first place. This is done in part through fear and violence. It is way more significant that just one mans honor. This is the difference between the garden variety random domestic violence, and “honor” killings. Honor killings are a form of social terrorism with its own set of rules applied for a larger social purpose. I think you already knew that though, and you are truly disgusting by the way, for your part in perpetuating this disgusting cultural affliction.
Hesperado:
In the early days of Islam, did Muslims spread their belief by moving small numbers of people into neighboring kingdoms, having them commit honor crimes, and then making them adopt Sharia law? I thought they just invaded. Was "stealth jihad" ever used to take over another culture? Or is this a new technique?
That last one didn't start well:
It is simple really, just like Mohammed says there is no “compulsion in religion”. He doesn’t mean that people can’t be forced by violence to conform to Islamic norms, and traditions. At a micro-cosmic social level this terror starts with each nuclear family unit, establishing a basis for Islamic norms to be perpetuated through time at a higher mass societal level. As minority Islamic populations grow they will be able to effect pressure on the non-Islamic society to accept their norms in time, but only if Muslims act as a unit maintaining those Islamic norms. First and foremost control must be gotten and maintained amongst Muslims to create the parallel society in the first place. This is done in part through fear and violence. It is way more significant that just one mans honor. This is the difference between the garden variety random domestic violence, and “honor” killings. Honor killings are a form of social terrorism with its own set of rules applied for a larger social purpose. I think you already knew that though, and you are truly disgusting by the way, for your part in perpetuating this disgusting cultural affliction.
ethoman:
[I think you already knew that though]
Believe me, I did not. I am just trying to understand your psychosis. It's hilarious that you come up with these paranoid conspiracy theories, and then call other people "truthers."
[Yup you guys are in the same boat, Scotland Yard due to PC social norms]
The fact that most of the "honor killings" are classified as such illustrates the exact opposite of PC social norms. A crime committed by by a Muslim man will be called an honor killing, when a similar crime committed by a non-Muslim will not. For example, when Nawaz Ahmed killed his wife (Lubaina Bhatti Ahmed) and three members of her family after she filed for divorce, it was called an honor killing. She had been filing domestic violence reports against her husband for 5 years, and she was afraid of him. (1) If a man has a long history of violence and then kills his wife when she files for divorce, then it is an honor killing? Why isn't this an honor killing?:
“Robert Lee Haggart, a 32-year-old livestock auctioneer, was found guilty today of killing his estranged wife and six members of her family in February, one day before the couple were to have been divorced… In addition to his wife, the victims were her father, George W. Post, 53; his wife, Vaudrey, 42; another of Mr. Post's daughters, Helen Gaffney, 29, and her three children, Angela, 10, Tom, 8, and Amy, 7.” (2)
Why isn't this an honor killing?:
“A former pawn shop owner was sentenced to life in prison on Friday for the killing of his estranged wife and shooting of the judge who handled their bitter divorce.” (3)
The last two are not honor killings because the people who committed them were not Musllim. To single out Muslims for crimes that are committed by everyone is not "PC" activity. I realize this is not the case for all "honor killing" crimes, and that many have no counterpart in our culture. You do not need to list any. The point is that real "honor killings" are extremely rare, and the phenomenon is made to look more widespread by including "normal" crimes, and even by including crimes that are not even reported!
1) AP, “Woman slain with three family members was on verge of divorce,” 12 Sept 1999, by Andrew Welsh-Huggins
2) NYT, “Michigan Man Is Guilty Of Killing 7 in Family,” 9 Oct 1982
3) AP, “Nevada man gets life in prison with possible parole for killing wife, shooting judge,” 8 Feb 2008, by Sandra Chereb
Hesperado, I think you are misreading dave742's point of view. I don't think dave is worried about 'discrimination' against Muslims, because of perceived 'fearmongering' about a clash of civilizations. I imagine, in fact that dave thinks the clash is very real and that he has picked his side in this clash. I don't think dave necessarily has any great love for Islam or Muslims other than the fact that he views Islam as a force that is subversive to Western society and as such supports it due to his extreme hatred for Western civilization. I'm guessing that he would prefer the West to be conquered by some great champion of world socialism, but with the abject failure of that worldview in the previous decades, global Islam will have to do.
Kuffir:
I am concerned about discrimination against anyone. I do not believe in any "clash of civilizations." That idea is used to convince American sheeple to support endless war. I am not against "Western civilization." I don't hate Sweden or Norway, for example, and I think they count as Western (I certainly don't think they're perfect, either). I hate the US. We are a rogue nation, and it is important that we fall before the world gets any more screwed up. I do support Muslims that are hastening that fall, but you are right that I have no special love for Muslim society. I certainly would not want to live in an Islamic society. I don't think the US is going to be "conquered" by anyone. We will implode. Nobody conquered the USSR.
Perhaps an explanation from an anthropological perspective.
Culture is a essentially a societies survival adaptaion, a sort of behavioral modification realative to external forces which helps it to adapt and survive over time, much like genetic modifications such as a cat growing fangs to hunt, or bisons tick fur to survive the cold. The Islamic culture is not the only culture to use the social adaptation of honor killings to enforce norms and thereby perpetuate its norms. That is all I'm saying, that is what the article implies when it mentions the fact that Hindus do it as well but at a much lower rate. I guess you could say that by aiding and abetting this Islamic cultural survival technique you are essentially propogating Islamic norms in the larger society as a whole. This much should be obvious. At the very least we should exploit this to our advantage by understanding it, and facilitating as best we can a break in this cultural cycle. Understanding it and using it to our advantage is important. thanks for the oprotunity to explain myself.
Ethan
Perhaps an explanation from an anthropological perspective.
Culture is a essentially a societies survival adaptation, a sort of behavioral modification relative to external forces which helps it to adapt and survive over time, much like genetic modifications such as a cat growing fangs to hunt, or bison's tick fur to survive the cold. The Islamic culture is not the only culture to use the social adaptation of honor killings to enforce norms and thereby perpetuate its norms. That is all I'm saying, that is what the article implies when it mentions the fact that Hindus do it as well but at a much lower rate. I guess you could say that by aiding and abetting this Islamic cultural survival technique you are essentially propagating Islamic norms in the larger society as a whole. This much should be obvious. At the very least we should exploit this to our advantage by understanding it, and facilitating as best we can a break in this cultural cycle. Understanding it and using it to our advantage is important. thanks for the opportunity to explain myself.
Ethan
Sweden and Norway aren't part of the West?
"Part of the ultimate objective of the West is to homogenize the entire world. Competing worldviews cannot be tolerated, because the worldview of the West is so vile that it could never withstand competition. The West, therefore, does not want to compete with other worldviews, it wants to obliterate them. They want the entire world to be composed of brain dead sheeple like they have turned Americans into. "
I'm sorry I didn't directly answer your question. Those killings you mention are not considered as honor killings because they display no obvious relationship to a cultural adaptation technique, such as forcing Muslim women to marry Muslim men, or being killed for not maintaining Islamic cultural dress codes.
I think you get it now, or are you going to continue to obfuscate?
ethoman:
[by aiding and abetting this Islamic cultural survival technique]
How am I doing this? The majority of "honor crimes" that are committed are also committed by citizens in the West. Regardless of who commits them, I denounce these crimes. True "honor crimes" are very rare, but they do happen. When they do, I denounce it. I do not support domestic violence in any form. Calling any type of dometic violence committed by a Muslim an "honor killing" in order to demonize them so sheeple will support bombing Muslim countries is wrong, however.
kuffir:
[Sweden and Norway aren't part of the West?]
I said they were, not that they were not. Thank for quoting my paper! Please cite it when quoting it, though. I will do it for you:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/20753339/Gates-of-Ijtihad
So when is Mr. Spencer or anyone here going to show me how wrong my "gates of ijtihad" views are?
ethoma:
[Those killings you mention are not considered as honor killings because they display no obvious relationship to a cultural adaptation technique...]
Why is it that when Nawaz Ahmed kills his wife for filing for a divorce, it is diplaying an "obvious relationship to a cultural adaptation technique," but when an American kills his wife for filing for a divorce, it is not? Is it possible for a Muslim man to kill his wife after filing for divorce for the same reason an American would do so in the same situation?
In a previous post on this thread you said this:
"I am not against "Western civilization." I don't hate Sweden or Norway, for example, and I think they count as Western (I certainly don't think they're perfect, either)."
In your 'paper' you said:
"Part of the ultimate objective of the West is to homogenize the entire world. Competing worldviews cannot be tolerated, because the worldview of the West is so vile that it could never withstand competition. The West, therefore, does not want to compete with other worldviews, it wants to obliterate them. They want the entire world to be composed of brain dead sheeple like they have turned Americans into. "
Those are conflicting statements. Did you change your mind between then and now, or are you a disingenuous troll who will change stances to try to suit the argument you are making.
kuffir:
You are correct. I realized what you were getting at just as your new post appeared. I should have said "the US" in the quote you gave of my paper, and not "the West." I don't think Sweden, for example, has the same goals as the US regarding what I was talking about in the paper. I'll edit the paper eventually. How cool that something I wrote in my paper stuck in your head like that! Did you see I got 350 reads and 17 downloads on my paper! I'm famous!
In a previous post on this thread you said this:
"I am not against "Western civilization." I don't hate Sweden or Norway, for example, and I think they count as Western (I certainly don't think they're perfect, either)."
In your 'paper' you said:
"Part of the ultimate objective of the West is to homogenize the entire world. Competing worldviews cannot be tolerated, because the worldview of the West is so vile that it could never withstand competition. The West, therefore, does not want to compete with other worldviews, it wants to obliterate them. They want the entire world to be composed of brain dead sheeple like they have turned Americans into. "
Those are conflicting statements. Did you change your mind between then and now, or are you a disingenuous troll who will change stances to try to suit the argument you are making.
I'd say the causation of the case you mention is on shakier grounds, perhaps the methods employed would make it such. The fact that she was beheaded should be taken into account? In the effort to employ the knowledge we have gained today perhaps a scientific analysis should be done in the perspective of cultural anthropology. Making clear what is an honor killing and what isn't. Based upon the findings I think murder with special circumstances should be applied, like with hate crimes, or RICO statues. It would be just as important to define what isn't an honor killing vs what is in the interest of protecting women. Isn't it ironic that perhaps one of the things that could undo Islamization would be the love of a woman? Love, I suppose to a certain degree this is fitting don't you agree?
ethoman:
[The fact that she was beheaded should be taken into account?]
Nawaz Ahmed did not cut his wife's head off:
"Worn down by years of her husband's insults and threats, Dr. Lubaina Bhatti Ahmed filed for divorce last February and prepared to divide up her belongings with her husband Sunday before a final court hearing Monday. Now, law enforcement officials suspect her husband Nawaz Ahmed of killing his estranged wife, her father, sister and young niece by slashing their throats this weekend in St. Clairsville, Ohio, along the Ohio-West Virginia border about 110 miles east of Columbus."
The Associated Press State & Local Wire
September 12, 1999, Sunday, AM cycle
Woman slain with three family members was on verge of divorce
BYLINE: By ANDREW WELSH-HUGGINS, Associated Press Writer
Yes, there should be a definition, and it should be applied to all crimes that fit it, and not only to Muslims. Chesler defines it:
http://www.meforum.org/2067/are-honor-killings-simply-domestic-violence
Funny thing is that her examples don't fit her definition. I am currently in the process of writing a paper on her pathetic article. I'll let you know when it is done. I am sure you'll want to read it.
Huh, good luck then if her murder can't be defined as such. It will be just as important, socially, to correct the public discourse on it. Sorry I missed that little bit, like I said very busy, barely even time to post what I've done, or fact check obviously. In the interest of making a lucid argument in your article, perhaps some of our discussion here today would help in regards to cultural anthropology, clearly defining what is an honor killing vs what isn't, and the cultural motives behind it, this could only strengthen our argument.
Dave742 : I hate the US. We are a rogue nation, and it is important that we fall before the world gets any more screwed up. I do support Muslims that are hastening that fall, but you are right that I have no special love for Muslim society. I certainly would not want to live in an Islamic society.
Have you considered moving somewhere less American or are you waiting to see how an islamic U.S. pans out? You really do talk utter nonsense, must be in college. Liberal Arts major?
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. Edmund Burke.
Honor killings are part of the control mechanism of islam.
Huh, good luck then if her murder can't be defined as such. It will be just as important, socially, to correct the public discourse on it. Sorry I missed that little bit, like I said very busy, barely even time to post what I've done, or fact check obviously. In the interest of making a lucid argument in your article, perhaps some of our discussion here today would help in regards to cultural anthropology, clearly defining what is an honor killing vs what isn't, and the cultural motives behind it, this could only strengthen our argument.
Ah! It's fundamentalism. Now I understand.
Fundamentalist Baptism? Methodism?
Question everything:
[Have you considered moving somewhere less American or are you waiting to see how an islamic U.S. pans out? You really do talk utter nonsense, must be in college. Liberal Arts major?]
I have friends and family in the US, so it would be hard to leave. My wife and I are considering moving. Switzerland or Germany would be good, but I wouldn't expect a world of difference regarding awareness of the people. I got my PhD decades ago: chemistry.
According to the link you posted :
Table 1: Differing Characteristics of Honor Killings and Domestic Violence
"cut at the throat" was listed as one of the methods of execution which define honor killings 50% of the time. "Shooting, or stabbing" as a method is more common to domestic violence.
From your article describing the murder,"officials suspect her husband Nawaz Ahmed of killing his estranged wife, her father, sister and young niece by slashing their throats this weekend."
According to what you have just linked and posted you will need to include these facts in your analysis. It is possible to link the execution methods here with an honor killing, based upon the data you presented to me.
ethoman:
[cut at the throat...]
Fine. Is this an honor crime?:
"A man who broke into his estranged wife's home, sneaked up behind her and slit her throat will spend at least four years in jail. Raymond Anthony Averill…"
AAP Newsfeed
September 18, 2006 Monday 4:00 PM AEST
WA: Man who slit wife's throat sentenced to prison
BYLINE: Adam Gartrell
SECTION: DOMESTIC NEWS
Is this an honor crime?:
"A Perth mother took a restraining order out against her estranged husband six weeks before he allegedly slashed her throat as their sons slept nearby, a court heard today.
Joseph Vella, 50, is on trial for the 2003 wilful murder of his wife Ruth, 41, who was killed in her home in northern Perth."
AAP NEWSFEED
March 8, 2005, Tuesday
WA: Husband slit wife's throat as sons slept: court told
BYLINE: By Tim Clarke
SECTION: Domestic News
DATELINE: PERTH, March 8
Dave thinks the "West" has a goal of homogenizing the world. If that were true, we would not be in this messy situation in which some of us are fighting against PCMC.
Didn't Dave convert to Islam because of marrying a Muslim woman? He has become more and more sympathetic to Islam over time.
Move to Europe? How nice. Yes, another Western country would be so nice for Dave and his Muslim wife to move to... he could continue his complaining about the West from there.
ethoman:
BTW, regarding the example above that I gave this quote:
“A former pawn shop owner was sentenced to life in prison on Friday for the killing of his estranged wife and shooting of the judge who handled their bitter divorce.”
I looked up how he murdered his wife:
"Mack had no visible marks on his body, Osborne said, and the dog turned was uninjured. Charla Mack, 39, was found later by authorities with her throat slashed and several of what a forensic pathologist said appeared to be defensive knife wounds."
The Associated Press State & Local Wire
October 26, 2007 Friday 12:15 AM GMT
Friend describes Mack's 'weird look' coming from slaying scene
BYLINE: By KEN RITTER, Associated Press Writer
Kuffir
thanks for flagging that rather telling paragraph from our Dawood's ('dave742')'s article.
It reads to me like an almost textbook piece of projection; because as a description of 'the West', it's a pretty good description of the sharia pushers and their goals.
Look what happens to it when one substitutes 'the Ummah' or 'Islam', and 'Muslims', for 'the West' and 'America' and 'Americans', in the appropriate places.
"Part of the ultimate objective of the Ummah, or Muslim Mob, is to homogenize the entire world. Competing worldviews cannot be tolerated, because the worldview of Islam is so vile that it could never withstand competition. Islam, therefore, does not want to compete with other worldviews, it wants to obliterate them. They want the entire world to be composed of brain dead sheeple like they have turned Muslims into. "
What do you think of that, folks?
dave742:
"In the early days of Islam, did Muslims spread their belief by moving small numbers of people into neighboring kingdoms, having them commit honor crimes, and then making them adopt Sharia law? I thought they just invaded."
Three phases of Islamic-Western history:
1) From the 7th century to the 17th century, Muslims in their estimation
a) had little opportunity to infiltrate the West in order to conquer it, since the West was not inviting them in by the millions; the West therefore represented a vast area to attack externally.
However, and in addition,
b) the West was sufficiently comparatively weak (that is, compared with its later spectacular ascendancy into superiority) to be attacked in conventional military terms -- which worked for a while with Spain, then failed, but then worked astonishingly with the Byzantine Empire, conquered by Muslims in the 15th century. The West, however, at the time remained smart enough not to invite millions of Muslims inside its walls.
2) From the 17th to the mid-20th century, the West became so spectacularly superior, Muslims could no longer either
a) attack conventionally
nor
b) try to infiltrate, since the West still remained smart enough not to invite millions of Muslims into its societies.
3) from the mid-20th century to the present, while the West remains spectacularly superior to Muslims on every level, the West has succumbed to PC MC, by which it has become spectacularly stupid enough to invite millions of Muslims into its societies and to coddle them and shower them with unearned respect, deference and privileges: the perfect situation for Muslims to try a new strategy. Muslims may be fanatically diseased in their minds, but they are not stupid. They know an unprecedented opportunity when they see one.
Hesperado:
You live in a pretty scary world. I guess I am glad I am so naive. At least I am content, have no worries, and have a good time.
Actually "honor" murders are an English thing.
Nothing to do with mohammedanism whatsoever.
;-)
Well Dave as long as you are perusing your quest in the spirit of exposing the true nature of Islamic honor killings, their causes, and how to rectify them I'd back you in your quest for the truth in that light. By the way I do have some personal experience with this issue, one of the kids in my neighborhood was talking about a Muslim girl in her class that told them her dad had threatened to kill both her and her mother if she did not wear Islamic dress. Needless to say she is horrified, and covered her hair from then on. I'd say it doesn't take many actual killings to strike fear into the hearts of many Muslim women and children all over the world. Creating escape routes for Muslim women is an important aspect in the fight against Islamization. As long as you are working towards that goal I'd say what you are doing is honorable, if not .... well then I suppose you have to live with yourself, because you are aiding and abetting a form of terror against women and children.
From your article: "Violence in the name of honor must be combated as an obstacle to women's enjoyment of human rights. Interpretations of honor as strongly connected with female chastity must be challenged. It can never be accepted that customs, traditions, or religious considerations are invoked to avoid obligations to eradicate violence against women and girls, including violence in the name of honor. Violence against women must be addressed from a rights-based perspective. … Measures should be taken in the areas of legislation, employment, education, and sexual and reproductive health and rights. Respect for women's enjoyment of human rights is intrinsically linked to democracy. International conventions must be incorporated into national legislation.[23]
"one of the kids in my neighborhood was talking about a Muslim girl in her class that told them her dad had threatened to kill both her and her mother if she did not wear Islamic dress. Needless to say she is horrified, and covered her hair from then on. I'd say it doesn't take many actual killings to strike fear into the hearts of many Muslim women and children all over the world."
According to the Undercover Mosque expose, where Arab-speaking reporters infiltrated mosques in England, most of which had been deemed to be "moderate", they overheard and reported imams preaching to their congregations to beat little girls who refused to wear the hijab. And dave742 ignores this obvious pathology in our society. This kind of pathology of obsession with "purity" is directly related to why terrorists bombed people in the Tube in London. And this pathology is obviously far more widespread among Muslims than dave742 would like us to believe. Reporters in various cities of Italy, and in Czechoslovakia, have also reported similar dangerous teachings in mosques, many of which were heretofore deemed "moderate". This indicates to anybody who still has reason intact that there is a wider sociological problem among Muslims than dave742 would have us believe.
One of the primary differences between honor killings and ordinary domestic violence is that honor killings are premeditated murder. Most domestic violence is spontaneous, caused by a variety of factors, and usually does not result in death. And domestic violence is rarely predicated on the chastity/virtue/modesty, or lack thereof, of a female family member. Islamic honor killings are almost always predicated on the putative "shame" brought to bear on a family by a female member, although occasionally males are guilty and suffer the same fate.
Since muslim females are chattel owned by men, a corrupted female is a worthless, non-fungible commodity, a liability. She is unmarriageable, persona non grata. In Western cultures, parents do not kill their daughters for shaming the family name or sell them into arranged marriages to their cousins. They do not conspire to murder them in their sleep or force a sibling to cut their throats to restore family honor. Many honor killings occur after the offending female has left the family, moved away, and started a new life. They are premeditated homicides.
Spousal abuse and murder occur in all cultures, as does child abuse. Sometimes parents even kill their children. But there is nothing remotely similar to islamic honor killings in Western cultures. When a woman is raped in our society, her attacker is prosecuted and imprisoned. When a muslim woman is the victim of rape, she is as good as dead. She is impure, unmarriageable, unwanted, and an object of humiliation and shame to her family. If she is married, her husband divorces her and if she returns to her parents, they kill her. You can call them "domestic violence" if you want, but honor killings transcend that classification.
Reluctantly I have to admit that you may have a point. What is the difference between a violent and abusive muslim beating and killing his wife and a violent and abusive non-Muslim?
The answer to that would of course require detailed analysis of every case and this is just not available. However most people would agree that hacking your daughter to death because she was going out with someone you disapproved of has largely died out in Western society. It might therefore reasonably be classified as an honour killing. That case occurred in London about three years ago.
One could also argue that even though muslim men constitute only four per cent of the population of Denmark and commit over 80% of the rapes this is not necessarily due to islam. As Danish and other Scandinavian girls are notoriously promiscuous the real problem is that they are not removing their pants fast enough for the newly arrived muslims. Is it relevant that the koran uses the same word for a non-Muslim woman as for whore?
The Norwegian police however attributed a 60% increase in rape in Oslo to, "Men of North African origin who hold uncovered women in low esteem" Not a muslim thing?
On the same theme the muslims who gang-raped Australian girls for days in about 2001 were no worse than Australian boys doing the same thing. That their families came to court and shouted abuse at the girls in Arabic such as “It is no crime to fuck white sluts” is no more than any non-muslim family would do to support their sons?
Please do not lecture us on police and statistics. The British police in common with every other state agency here are terrified of minorities in general and muslims in particular. Earlier this year when one of the major TV companies secretly filmed extremist preachers in the main London Mosque
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6a-YgZgwQ8
The police tried to prosecute for incitement to religious or racial hatred – The TV company that is, not the preachers!
AS TO
"You live in a pretty scary world. I guess I am glad I am so naive. At least I am content, have no worries, and have a good time."
Be glad while you can be. I live 4 miles from a muslim colony in a region where a police cheif was fired for making the following statement about the muslims in his area,
"Whites are being beaten so badly and so frequently it is only a matter of time before one of them is killed".
Understandably this was not quoted in the British press, I picked it up from "The Times of India." About 6 months later one of 3 white teenagers who was attacked in that area died. You will be glad to know it is not recorded as a racist killing. As they returned and robbed him in the 20 minutes he was lying unconscious in their street one assumes this was logged as "Robbery with violence".
As a great British Liberal Prime minister said 150 years ago, "There are lies, damned lies and statistics"
Ethoman:
[By the way I do have some personal experience with this issue]
Personal experience means nothing. You have to look at an issue in its entirety to evaluate it. The first girl I dated as a teenager had 5 sisters, and all 6 girls had been raped by her father (no, he was not a Muslim). Although it is a terrible individual case, it means nothing regarding the issue of rape in the US. If this was a rare, isolated case, it would mean one thing, and if this is a common occurrence, it would mean another. You have to look at the entire issue to judge it. It is only when the issue as a whole does not back up your argument that you have to resort to individual stories. When the statistics and the larger view back up what you want to say, it is OK to look at it this way. When the statistics and the larger view does not, then you bring up individual stories and pretend that it is the norm (and you then quote the statement about “damn lies and statistics” to explain why you must concentrate on individual stories). This technique works on the masses, but not on me.
[Violence against women must be addressed from a rights-based perspective]
Really. It is funny, then, to look at the US response to the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women (CEDAW). The only three countries that have not ratified this treaty, which deals in part with violence against women from a rights-based perspective, are Iran, Sudan, and the great US of A. Similarly, the Convention on the Rights of the Child has not been ratified by two countries: Somalia and the great US of A. This is partially because the US does not consider health care to be a right, whether it is health care for women, or for children (this makes me so proud). So, because health care is not a right, the US will let 10,000 women die every year because they do not have access to health care (20,000 per year total of men and women). 10,000 women dying per year in the US is a non-issue, but if one person dies every few years in this country due to an honor killing, we should talk about it ceaselessly.
FredMk:
[However most people would agree that hacking your daughter to death because she was going out with someone you disapproved of has largely died out in Western society. It might therefore reasonably be classified as an honour killing. That case occurred in London about three years ago.]
Yes, that would be an honor killing. You are illustrating my point, however. If this happens once every three years, I really don’t see the emphasis that it gets in the media.
[The answer to that would of course require detailed analysis of every case and this is just not available.]
I will make it available. The article by Chesler that I quoted above gives a list of cases, and I am going through them all. So far, I have found a total of zero that are actually honor killings (I have not got to the famous ones that obviously are, so no need to list them). One case she lists, for example, is of a person whose court case was thrown out by the judge for lack of evidence! Doesn’t a person have to actually kill someone for it to be an honor killing?? It’s unbelievably ridiculous.
[One could also argue that even though muslim men constitute only four per cent of the population of Denmark and commit over 80% of the rapes this is not necessarily due to islam…The Norwegian police however attributed a 60% increase in rape in Oslo to, "Men of North African origin who hold uncovered women in low esteem" Not a muslim thing?]
Show me where you got these numbers. (I realize that you will not).
Last time someone showed by the numbers for how many rapes occurred in Pakistan was when Hesperado did so on this thread:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2009/09/her-duty-is-helping-muslim-women-who-have-been-abused----and-spreading-soothing-myths-about-islam.html
I used the numbers provided by Heseperado, and compared the incidence of rape in Pakistan and the US (see the part that starts with “OK. What about rape…”). It turns out that the rape rate in the US is 169 times higher in the US than it is in Pakistan! This is using numbers supplied by Hesperado.
By the way, I have a question about this:
"A report into the scale of the problem by Scotland Yard found there were 161 honour-based incidents recorded in 2007-8, of which 93 were criminal offences."
What the hell is an "honour-based incident" that is not a criminal offense? Can someone give me a theoretical example? And why are the police counting these "incidents" that are not criminal offenses?
An honour-based incident is a report of violence, genital mutilation, etc. based on Islamic culture primarily (and on other Third World cultures secondarily), which generated the process of sending police out to a location to investigate + paperwork, but which for a variety of reasons did not result in the formal establishment of a crime by the police. Among those reasons is the fear of reprisal among those who reported the allegation and therefore a subsequent withdrawal of the complaint. Knowing what we know about Muslim societies -- with its preponderance of threats of violence by those who are maintaining the pathology of Islam (genital mutilation, wife-beating, child-beating, on up to honor-killing, etc.) -- it is reasonable to assume that only one out of 100 such incidents are reported, the rest cowering in fear in their living hell; while among those reported, a good deal are withdrawn by the time the police are sent out, again due to fear. Another reason so few incidents are reported in the first place is likely due to the fanatical complicity by Muslim family members, including women, in the violence and intimidation that forms the sick glue of Islamic societies.
Hesperado:
[generated the process of sending police out to a location to investigate + paperwork, but which for a variety of reasons did not result in the formal establishment of a crime by the police]
To me, any call to the police that is based on something that is a criminal offense will be classified as such. So if a Muslim child calls the police and reports that her father beat her for not wearing a half-shirt, then this would be classified as a criminal offense, because beating a child is illegal. It would be classified as such whether or not charges were filed, or a conviction is obtained. However, if she calls the police because her parents grounded her for wearing a half-shirt, then this would be classified as an "honor based incident" that is not a criminal offense, since it is not illegal to ground your child.
Are you saying that if a child calls the police about her father beating her, but then does not press charges, then this is an example of an "honor based incident" that is not a criminal offense?
I really do not know what to make of you.
I mention one case as an example of honour killing and you agree. You then claim this proves your point because it is the only case in three years!
Since when?
Google “honour killing UK” you will find there are too many cases there from the British MSM for me to be able to describe them. Even the most left wing liberal paper "The Independent" puts the number of cases in Britain at 12 a year.
Rape in Scandinavia?
Google “Denmark muslim rape” or Sweden or Norway and you will find plenty of sites mostly like JW. You will of course dismiss these but you will find the Oslo Police quote in there somewhere. There are no figures for the UK but Google "keighley under age girls" and "Blackburn under age girls" and see what was going on there.
But best of all!
“I used the numbers provided by Heseperado, and compared the incidence of rape in Pakistan and the US (see the part that starts with “OK. What about rape…”). It turns out that the rape rate in the US is 169 times higher in the US than it is in Pakistan! This is using numbers supplied by Hesperado.”
You actually think that the sophisticated systems developed on the insistence of western feminists to follow up every allegation of rape in the West can be compared with figures from Pakistan?
That is just priceless!
The Pakistan government doesn't know properly how many people are born, live and die in the country. As to rape recording in Pakistan, I'm sure some of the other posters will enlighten you as the requirements prove rape under Sharia law. I believe the woman is assumed guilty of enticing the man unless she has the support of four male witnesses. There's a lot more to it than that e.g. in many cases they have the right to kill her, but I just cannot be bothered.
You clearly know very little about Islam and the situation with muslim colonies in Europe. I am sorry, but I think you're one of those liberal posters suffering from a bad case of Black Knight Syndrome.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKhEw7nD9C4
FredMK1:
I am not going to "Google" anything in order to do research on anything. I do not form my worldview by "Googling" things. I do research using scholarly tools, not Google. If you would like to supply me with any credible information regarding anything you stated, I will address it.
["The Independent" puts the number of cases in Britain at 12 a year.]
If you show me the site, I will look at it. Again, it means nothing unless they define their terms and list their results. If there are only 12 per year, they can list them. As I said, Chesler does give a list in the link above. She gives a comparatively short list, not even close to 12 a year. Even when picking the cream of the crop, the "obvious" examples of honor killings, she includes people who were innocent of the crime, and had their case thrown out of court by the judge! This is my point. I cannot explain it any better than that.
[You actually think that the sophisticated systems developed on the insistence of western feminists to follow up every allegation of rape in the West can be compared with figures from Pakistan? ]
In the US, 34% of attempted rapes are reported:
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/nij/topics/crime/rape-sexual-violence/rape-notification.htm
You are saying that the reporting of rapes is so low in Pakistan, that it more than makes up for the fact that the reported rate of rape in the US is 169 times higher than it is in Pakistan. If you do the math, for the US and Pakistan to have the same rape rate, that would mean that only 1 in 500 rapes gets reported in Pakistan. And that is for the situation to be equal. Let's say you think the Pakistanis rape at a rate 10 times higher than we do in the US. If that were the case, that would mean that only 1 in 5,000 rapes in Pakistan gets reported. Do you believe that only 1 in 5,000 rapes gets reported in Pakistan? If so, why? Because of what you read on JW?
Everything you believe about the Muslim world is based on reading on this site about the worst 0.01% of Muslims, and then generalizing that to all 1 billion Muslims. This is completely insane. Ninety thousand women get raped every year. I am sure that 5% of those are unbelievably horrific, if all rapes don't fall under that category. I could start a web site in Switzerland, then, and go over the details of 4,500 utterly horrific tales of rape in the US every year. I could do the same for all types of crime and deviant behavior. What would you say of the Swiss citizens who judge all Americans by reading this website?
FredMK1:
Me sentence that reads "Ninety thousand women get raped every year" should read "Ninety thousand women get raped every year in the US."
Fredmk1:
[I'm sure some of the other posters will enlighten you as the requirements prove rape under Sharia law. I believe the woman is assumed guilty of enticing the man unless she has the support of four male witnesses.]
Yes, I know all about Sharia law. The figures that were supplied to me by Hesperado were not rapes that fit the definition of Islamic law.According to Hesperado's reference (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4017441.stm), 225 women were raped in Pakistan in 7 months, which is 386 in a year. Do you think that there are 386 rapes in Pakistan every year that are witnessed by four males? If you do, you are insane.
You really are a waste of time,
"Everything you believe about the Muslim world is based on reading on this site about the worst 0.01% of Muslims, and then generalizing that to all 1 billion Muslims".
Everything I believe about the muslim world is based on,
Going regularly into and working in an area of 40,000 muslims who live 4 miles down the road.
Working in 4 different muslim areas over a period of 10 years.
Working in an office which was 50% muslim giving handouts to muslims in a 98% muslim area.
Seeing my interpreter getting enraged because a muslim girl in one house was dressed in jeans and blouse.
Having the young muslim clerk quietly tell me the muslim housing officer married to an English colleague had been disowned by her family and they were quite right to do so.
Meeting the 2% non-muslims in the same area who were being encouraged to move. In the worst case by bricks through their windows and shouts of "F*** out of our street you white bitch and sell us your house". That 80 year old woman told me "The police say they can do nothing, too many Pakistani's". More usually they just kept knocking on the door and politely asking if Mohammed ---- lived there. This is just as effective and cannot possibly cause any trouble with the police.
Having a colleague in the same office come to work the day after his wife was caught in an unreported muslim riot. In common with other English women she had come home hysterical having had to shelter in the town centre shops. When he calmed down he crossed the office and whispered in pathetic desperation, in case the muslims heard, "What can we do? What can we do?"
Being unable to let a student house in a muslim area to white girls because of harassment by young muslim men.
Having a muslim child walk up to my late wife in a store and punch her in the stomach - which was about as high as he could reach.
Having a muslim who lived in the Uk 20+ years shout at me through the interpreter "I will not pay one penny for this work the people in "X" and "Y" pay nothing for so why should we!"
Having a muslim screw a town council for £14,000 because they were afraid of accusations of "Islamophobia" or "racism"
Having a gang of muslim students from the islamic college in our 99% white suburb descend on my middle aged neighbors one night and smash every window in their house. It was hushed up and "community relations" paid for the damage.
muslim students at the local private school (fees $20,000 a year) telling their fellow white students "We do not need to integrate with you because the mosque has told us in 80 years this town will be our". Source - a business associate who sends his 2 children there.
Having our local paper threatened with a boycott by muslim shops that would have closed it in a month. This would be organised behind the scenes by the governments "Race Relations Board" Their offense? To truthfully report that a muslim "businessman" had crammed 400 Afghan asylum seekers into 100 small filthy houses for which service we taxpayers were giving him £13,000 A WEEK.
Having Iraqi asylum seekers settled on the public housing estate 2 miles away repay us by stoning the local English girls and call them whores.
This is not Google but PERSONAL first and second hand experience and by no means a complete list. So do not DARE tell me why I think as I do - Black Knight.
I will not reply to any more of your posts as in the face of your ignorance and arrogance I would have difficulty avoiding foul language. If you consider that "winning" so be it.
Fredmk1:
Forgive my for not reading through all your personal experiences. Could you save me some time and tell me which experience shows that only one in 5,000 rapes in Pakistan is reported, and which one shows the true extent of honor killings?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKhEw7nD9C4
First of all my personal experience is very valid, and can not be dismissed. The dad was threatening violence to enforce Islamic dress codes, and cultural norms. The daughter was filled with horror, and complied. The rapist you mentioned was a pedophile, there were not any cultural norms being enforced, which you can use to make this a like incident.
You are actually starting to make me physically ill reading your posts, you are just evil, you make me sick. I feel like I need a shower.
recent article on from the BBC on rape in Pakistan.
"A woman is raped every two hours and gang-raped every eight hours in Pakistan, according to the country's independent Human Rights Commission.
Correspondents say these figures are probably an under-estimation as many rapes are not reported.
Campaigners say Pakistan's laws have made it virtually impossible to prosecute rape."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6148590.stm
Not sure how the new law is doing.
LOL, nice video haha!
ethoman:
[[in Pakistan] a woman is raped every two hours]:
In the US 1.3 women are raped every minute:
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/ovc/publications/infores/help_series/pdftxt/sexualassaultvictimization.txt
[raped every two hours]:
Using this number, there are 4,380 rapes in Pakistan per year. This turns out to be 25.5 rapes per million women each year.
The number of rapes in the US per million women each year is 372:
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/cvus/current/cv0627.pdf
(See similar discussion here: http://www.jihadwatch.org/2009/09/her-duty-is-helping-muslim-women-who-have-been-abused----and-spreading-soothing-myths-about-islam.html)
Using your number, the rate of rape in the US is over 14 times higher than it is in Pakistan. I know the response: Not all rapes in Pakistan are reported. The same is true in the US: most rapes in the US are also not reported.
[You are actually starting to make me physically ill]
You know what makes me physically ill? When people can talk endlessly about another culture and denigrate it forever, but when someone shows that same person that the same issue is worse in the country they live in, they fall silent. They cannot even acknowledge the same problem when it happens in their own in-group. It's always easier to put down someone else than it is to look in the mirror. It's pathetic.
Hesperado wrote in part:
'Muslims don't ever have to succeed in their ultimate, and ancient, goal of apocalyptic expansionism: all they have to do is fanatically try, to cause the degree of mayhem etc etc...'
Bill Warner on the 'Political lslam' site has stated that no country that has been invested or found itself the object of lslamic expansionism has ever ultimately succeeded in resisting lslamic conquest. l think his statement is mostly true, with possibly Spain proving an exception having been lost to Western civilisation but then recovered.
The idea that once they start eventually theyll succeed - its scary, its very scary. lt leads me to conclude the only way you can contain a muslim population within your country is to subject it to extraordinary controls - the sort of controls that current legislation in probably all Western countries prohibits. Obviously laws would need to be changed. At the moment most people see no evil when it comes to lslam. The way they block the evil out of their concious minds defies rationality.
lts as though theres a huge psychosis at work on Western populations or perhaps some form of hypnosis. That same hypnosis allowed the election of Christmas abolishing Obama. lm certain he is a muslim, he sure isnt a Christian. lncidentally he sent three 'emmisaries' out here to the World Parliament of Religion - held in Melbourne Aus just this last week. His 'emmisaries' met with muslim leaders and sought advise from them how America can better get along with lslam. l dont think there is any 'getting along' unless you maintain the upper hand - l mean for ever. Though if you ever loosen your grip youre a goner. lm not a Christian, well l dont go to church though l do think its possible there might be some other 'dimension' to whats going on in the world today though l cant bring myself to think its like some endgame good vs evil knockout bout, still you have to wonder, these times are more perilous than any other - thats a big claim to make - but lm making it. At least back in the thirties whole countries were wary of Hitler and expecting the worse, right now its just a tiny handful who realise how dreadful lslam is.
ethoman:
You are right when you say our stories are different in that yours relates to social norms, and mine does not. You are taking the concept way too far, however. Yes, Islam has dress codes, and that is a social norm. (So does the US, you know: schools have dress codes, and parents don't like when their daughters wear something too revealing. The dress codes are different, but they exist everywhere). But when you say that the girls parents threatened to kill her for not following the dress code, then that is no longer the social norm. Regardless off the crap people spout off on this site, it is not normal for Muslims to kill their children, or to threaten to kill them. This is not a social norm.
Since personal stories are valid for you, here is mine. I work next to someone from Iran. She is fully Westernized, and when we have political discussions, she is on the American side, and I am opposing her. She hates Ahmadinejad (although she said about half of her family in Iran voted for him). I asked her about the prevalence of wife beating in Iran. She said it is a very bad problem, and it happens all the time. I asked her how much worse it is there than in the US, and she replied that at is about the same. Funny. I then asked her about rape. She said that with this issue it is very different than in the US. She said that rape is very rare in Iran, and it is much worse here. Again, she is pro-US.
ethoman:
[They cannot even acknowledge the same problem when it happens in their own in-group.]
Maybe this is the answer! Nearly all people care more about people in their in-group than in their out-group because of the connection they feel to in-group members. You seem to be very concerned about Muslim women getting raped, but do not want to discuss US women getting raped. The fact that US women get raped at a higher rate than Muslim women does not seem to bother you. The answer is obvious: you are a Muslim! You're evil!
"Correspondents say these figures are probably an under-estimation as many rapes are not reported.
Campaigners say Pakistan's laws have made it virtually impossible to prosecute rape."
the human flies:
"Bill Warner on the 'Political lslam' site has stated that no country that has been invested or found itself the object of lslamic expansionism has ever ultimately succeeded in resisting lslamic conquest."
Spain.
ethoman:
[Correspondents say these figures are probably an under-estimation]
Shocking.
I should give up as you're wasting your time with this Dave fellow.
As you'll see from all his previous posts he is only interested in sources which confirm what he already believes and as he knows what he believes is right that is an end of the matter. Anyone stupid enough to claim a chaotic Third World tribal country like Pakistan has the same sophisticated systems for recording any crime let alone rape as the West* is not worth arguing with.
If you look you'll see that he grandly informed me I knew absolutely nothing about muslims apart from what I read on JW. When I answered that specific point in detail and at some length his response was ,
What's that got to do with rape in Pakistan?
Huh? Lets see that again,
He told me I knew nothing about muslims apart from reading JW.
I replied I knew quite a lot and gave details.
And he asks,
What's that got to do with rape in Pakistan?
This is part of an interrogation technique whereby you throw someone off balance by ignoring an answer to which you have no response and you wish to pass over.
As you can see from his most recent response he’s long on sarcasm and short on reason.
You're wasting your time he's a true Black Knight.
*Rape crisis centres, rape help lines, specially trained officers and doctors, feminist lobbies to see all allegations are pursued, detailed recording and follow-up of every allegation. Just like in Pakistan? No wonder “statistics” are weighted against the West. Years ago a British satirist observed that soon it would only be necessary for a woman to telephone the police with the alleged rapists name and address for him to be carted off to jail for life.
I should give up as you're wasting your time with this Dave fellow.
As you'll see from all his previous posts he is only interested in sources which confirm what he already believes and as he knows what he believes is right that is an end of the matter. Anyone stupid enough to claim a chaotic Third World tribal country like Pakistan has the same sophisticated systems for recording any crime let alone rape as the West* is not worth arguing with.
If you look you'll see that he grandly informed me I knew absolutely nothing about muslims apart from what I read on JW. When I answered that specific point in detail and at some length his response was ,
What's that got to do with rape in Pakistan?
Huh? Lets see that again,
He told me I knew nothing about muslims apart from reading JW.
I replied I knew quite a lot and gave details.
And he asks,
What's that got to do with rape in Pakistan?
This is part of an interrogation technique whereby you throw someone off balance by ignoring an answer to which you have no response and you wish to pass over.
As you can see from his most recent response he’s long on sarcasm and short on reason.
You're wasting your time he's a true Black Knight.
*Rape crisis centres, rape help lines, specially trained officers and doctors, feminist lobbies to see all allegations are pursued, detailed recording and follow-up of every allegation. Just like in Pakistan? No wonder “statistics” are weighted against the West. Years ago a British satirist observed that soon it would only be necessary for a woman to telephone the police with the alleged rapists name and address for him to be carted off to jail for life.
True - but it took about 700 years and they are moving back in some numbers.
http://www.speroforum.com/a/23905/Islamic-law-in-Socialist-Spain
Beautifully put, Fred, re. the main tactic employed by 'dave' (dawood). Interestingly, it's also the main tactic of our other current Mohammedtroll, 45ch: a fact that you have, I believe, astutely observed in other previous threads.
Thank you for dissecting this particular trick so neatly. Until one realizes what they are doing, it can be incredibly disorienting.
Fredmk1:
I tried to get you back to talking about issues because whenever people on this site start getting confused about the issues (after hearing facts about them), they immediately fall back into talking about individuals. That is the "trick" used by Mr. Spencer and everyone here. You cannot talk about larger issues, group dynamics, entire societies, etc., because when you do, the facts kill you. So you come back with "but I know this bad Muslim who did this, and this bad Muslim did that." SO WHAT. I could list hundreds of stories of very bad Americans I have met in my life, but I don't because it is MEANINGLESS. Doing that would make me an imbecile, which I am not.
You do not learn about a culture from meeting individuals. You learn by studying their history, their system of government, system of law, etc. If you go get a PhD in Asian studies with a concentration in Japanese studies, do they send you to Japan to work with Japanese people in an office and to meet them on the street and talk to them in bars? Is that how you learn about a culture? I don't think so. We brought up the issue of rape rates in various countries. I have been talking to Americans for over 40 years, and if that's all I did, I would not know the first thing about what the rape rate in the US is. You have to research it. You either study a culture on your own, or you read other peoples studies. That is how you learn. Not by talking to people. So you think every person living in the US is an expert on American culture, law government, etc., because they talk to and work with Americans? That's insane. Talking about individual cases is stupid, and it is only done by people who are unable to talk about larger issues because the facts about the larger issues do not support their views. So go ahead and talk endlessly about the bad Muslims you met. There are a billion Muslims, so I am sure there are hundreds of thousands of pretty bad ones, so you plenty to choose from. Intelligent people will see past your technique (meaning about 2-3% of Americans).
dave742 :Doing that would make me an imbecile, which I am not.
The evidence provided by your posts would prove otherwise.
dave742 :Intelligent people will see past your technique (meaning about 2-3% of Americans).
Thank you for posting further evidence.