"you are in any way the most ugliest & hateful creature.most cases your father is a ugly pig"

"On a more serious note, Robert, perhaps you should draw this to the attention of the Hotmail people. I don't think Microsoft would be happy that their mail service is being used to send racist filth like this."

Yeah espetially since Bill Gates is the king of the Evil Illuminati LOL .... but seriously though this stuff isn't funny.

No. It's not that he actually thinks Mr Spencer is a Jew.

He calls Mr Spencer a Jew because 'Jew' is the very, very worst cuss-word in his (the Muslim's) vocabulary.

Sort of like a modern westerner calling someone a 'nazi'. They don't actually mean that they think the person they're thus addressing is a full-on aryan supremacist signed up with the local branch of the Neo-Nazi party; they just mean 'I hate you and this is the worst insult I can think of, to throw at you'.

William Lane, when he lived in Egypt in the early-mid 19th century, observed that Egyptian Muslims used the term 'Jew' as their insult of last resort: it would be addressed, for example, to a recalcitrant donkey, when the infuriated owner had run out of cuss-words.

"You are an embarrassment to CANADA."

Are you people still letting in the Barbarians?

Yeah, us too. It must stop.

UNfortunately. And our immigration rate is very high. A large proportion of that is probably from 3rd world, mostly Muslim countries. As it is, 53% of Toronto is foreign-born now, from the last census.

http://www.immigrationwatchcanada.org

It is amazing how Islam develops the intellect. Once again, one does not really see any defense of Islam. Apparently, it is a faith with virtues that are unmentionable or mysterious. What are the benefits of being a Moslem? From what I have seen and heard, only Molech or the Aztec gods could be possibly more vile than Allah, and that would be a close contest. If Islam is the only monotheistic faith, I will chase after Hera, Zeus, or any odd tree sprite that might come along. They would have more going for them than Allah and his wonderful prophet.

And at least Pan and his mates know how to have a good time!

45ch - You raise a difficult and problematic point for those of us that follow Christ and are also concerned about Jihad: namely, what does "love" look like.

Can it take the form of armed resistance to men bent on performing evil acts/terrorism? Is there such a thing as "just war" for a Christian? How aggressively should we pursue truth in our interpersonal relationships and dialogues with people who embrace Islam - to the point of conflict and the dissolution of the relationship, even with those not as "radical" as this emailer is?

If it boils down to the Golden Rule, which it surely must for a Christ-follower, then I personally tend to side with the view that C.S. Lewis described in Mere Christianity.

I just don't want to use my faith as a reason to just sit back and trust that if I'm "loving" to people who embrace the tenets of Islam in the same way as this emailer does, that the "love" will get through to them. I think that I also need to truly act in love towards the others in my society that are at risk from these people and their agenda - often due to ignorance of the problem.

Maybe it's because I've seen too many people view "love" as primarily an emotional response, and not as a purposeful and directed intellectual course of action that I feel this way.

You got that right, Barbarians, I don't recall Inviting radical fools to enter our country, I believe the screening process is flawed..or he is a boulter with dual citizenship, comes to CANADA when his country of Origin is in turmoil..Maybe If these people would realize that the real Canadians are actually getting tired of their crap they would take a lower tone..Also wonder If Canada will ever follow suit like the Swiss,or Austrailia I certainly would hold my head up Higher as a Proud Canadian...Remember There are 3 things willing to die for you..Jesus Christ, An American soldier, And a CANADIAN soldier...AMEN.

..must be a Leafs fan..another loser.
Loser defined: A pregnant prostitute lining up to to buy tickets for a Leafs game. Toronto..Last one to bed turns out the lights..

It's not "Toronto the Good" anymore..It's "Toronto the Too Good". Aside: The Leafs are an embarassment to Canada! lol.Habs fan..

Thanks, dda, for that anecdote about William Lane's experience in Egypt. I've already made a mental note of it. Really, Islam is no less anti-Semitic than Nazism and that's demonstrated time and time again by Islamic ideology and the misguided fools who follow it.

Active,

For christians, no war is "just".

Jesus prophesied that the Jews should flee Jerusalem when the terrorist Romans came to attack Jerusalem in AD70.

If ever there was a "just" war, defending Jerusalem against the pagan, terrorist Romans would have been it, but not according to God.

As for apprehending today's terrorists, the US govt has the rendition program and that should prevent any terrorist from gaining power.

As for christians, we need to pray, and evangelize through the Word of God and not the sword because that is the only way God can change the hearts of muslims and other non-christians ( including the Jews ) as God eventually changed the hearts of the terrorist Romans and Christianity was able to over-power the evil of the terrorist Romans and eventually, the terrorist Romans gave their hearts to God.

Re. Lane: memory is a funny thing, the reference should be *Edward* William Lane, and the book is 'An Account of the Manners and Customs of the Modern Egyptians", or 'Manners and Customs of the Modern Egyptians', first published in 1836 and then revised and republished in 1860; it's been in print ever since, so you should find it in any good university library.

The passage in which Lane notes that an angry Arab Muslim will call his jaded ass a Jew, as the ultimate insult, is cited by Littmann and Bat Yeor in their article, 'Protected Peoples Under Islam', which is item 4 in Spencer's anthology, 'The Myth of Islamic Tolerance'; they found the passage on pages 559-60 of the 1963 Everyman's Library reprint of the 1836 edition.

DDA,

You do not have to worry about terrorists taking over, because the US rendition program apprehends all suspected terrorists before they have a chance to harm the US govt. in anyway.

As for christians, they need to trust God because everything is in God's hands and that is why Jesus prophesied that the Jews should flee Jerusalem when the terrorist Romans came to attack Jerusalem in AD70 since in God's infinite wisdom, there is no such thing as a "just" war, even against the terrorist pagan Romans who were determined in destroying Jerusalem.

Rico,

What war has been necessary ?

When the terrorist Romans were going to attack Jerusalem in AD70, should the Jews have defended Jerusalem or listened to the prophecy of Jesus when Jesus said to flee Jerusalem ?

Spot on...for a Muslim, to refer to someone as a Jew is the ultimate insult. You're exactly correct in observing that it matters not one iota if the target of the label "Jew" is actually Jewish or not. I do so love these shining examples of the "peace" and "tolerence" of Islam.

Well said, mate.

DDA,

What would Jesus do if the Ottoman Empire existed during the time of Jesus and was in control of Palestine, instead of the Roman Empire ?

I don't deal in might-have-beens.

I don't profess to know or guess what he would have done, but I don't think his advice would necessarily have been the same (in any case, I think re. Jerusalem, he could see that the Jews didn't have the numbers to win against Rome without massive supernatural intervention, and so was simply counselling prudence) because the Roman Empire was an entirely different kind of society from the Muslim Ottoman Empire.

The polytheistic Romans, although they persecuted the Jews and the Christians, were much more open to investigating and embracing Biblical truth than the Ottoman Muslims. One could win over the Romans by peaceful witness. I think Jesus saw that, and all his actions were to that end.

Whereas, with Islam: no matter how deeply the dhimmi populations submitted and obeyed, Muslims in all parts of dar al Islam *never stopped* bullying, oppressing, robbing, raping and periodically mass-killing them, and *never* considered converting to the faith of the dhimmis. Like a cat plays with a mouse, the Muslims seem to have enjoyed letting this or that individual dhimmi or dhimmi population recover for just a little while, let them think they were 'off the hook'... before pouncing on them and stomping them back down into the dirt.

The absolute, silent, peaceful submission of the dhimmis, and all their grovelling and flattering of the Muslims, seems only to have increased the diseased Muslim appetite for sadistic exercise of unlimited power against helpless individuals and groups.

I don't think it's necessarily loving to let a bully always and everywhere do exactly as he likes - up to and including appalling acts of violence against other people - and give him everything he wants. Because what that does, is *increase* the damage he's doing to his soul. It's not loving to give an alcoholic or a heroin addict the 'stuff', even if they scream for it. It's not loving to slavishly rush to satisfy the every appetite of a malignant narcissist or a serial killer, either. If the Muslim thug comes to you and tells you to hand over your preteen daughter, or your lovely wife, or your young sister, so he can rape her and 'convert' her to Islam and lock her up in the hareem - will you bow and scrape and say 'yes, yes, effendi! Your wish is my command, effendi!', and hand her over, ignoring her terrified tears? Or will you do what one brave Christian did in Judea, not so long ago, when a bunch of Muslim thugs came to seize his beautiful daughter to force her to wed one of their number? - he got out the double-barrelled shotgun and let fly.

Any grandma knows that saying 'No' to a screaming, tantruming toddler is sometimes necessary; and that physical restraint to prevent said toddler from hurting himself or others, is also sometimes necessary.

To give the Bad Baby Muslims everything they want, every time they demand it, no matter how unreasonable and selfish the demand, no matter how much it hurts their victims, and no matter how damaging it is for their own souls to wallow in unrestrained lust, cruelty and pride, is nothing other than what grandma calls "spoiling".

It doesn't teach them anything; it merely hardens them in their narcissistic belief that everything in the world is theirs by right to be eaten, or f***ed, or killed.

Hard Rain

thank you for that gripping description of the realities of 'Islamoforming'.

I think you will find eerily similar to your experience, the account by one 'arjun sevak' who used to post here regularly a few years ago, describing the 'Islamoforming' of his home suburb in a city in India.

I reposted it in this forum only a short while ago, but I think it bears posting yet again, since I think all newbies here, now and in future, will learn something very important from reading arjun's and your stories side-by-side.

In thread attached to this article:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2007/06/majid-khadduri-and-george-w-bush.html

just scroll down through the comments.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2007/06/majid-khadduri-and-george-w-bush.html#c414583

"I grew up in a middle class neighbourhood. It was a beautiful place with 2 parks for the kids and trees lining the roads. The housing society of the area had made around 150 homes there around 50 years back.

"We bought that house when I was a kid.

" Just across the road, the government gave a bit of land for a mosque.

"The area surrounding the mosque was open and everything seemed to be all right.

"Then the mosque speakers went up. The mullah of the mosque used to give the azan 5 times a day but it was not very loud and did not reach our homes.

"Slowly, muslims started encroaching on the empty area around the mosque. They started with small shacks and gradually built up.

"About 3 years ago, some saudi sheikh gave some money to this mosque and they put up a minaret over a hundred feet high.

"Now the entire area around the mosque is a complex maze of alleys. That area is now a muslim ghetto.

"The mosque has high decibel speakers that violate all the noise pollution norms but no infidel dares to complain.

"The azans are so loud that they reach every home of our society. And time to time, a "scholar from mecca" visits the mosque and gives sermons at the top of his voice.

"I moved to another location because my mother has a heart condition and the azan and the screaming, hysterical sermons was bad for her blood pressure. It woke everyone up at 5 a.m. everyday and the sermons lasted entire days.

"I loved that house and I clung to it for some time, hoping that maybe I could move back again.

"Then I realized that that area is turning islamic and I sold my house.

"Now people tell me that I was wise to do so, since property prices are coming down in the area.

"Since we moved a year back, more than 10 families quit the area.

"Now we are very far away from that place and I still feel bad about my home, but I know that I did the right thing by moving.

"The trees around my housing society are slowly disappearing since the muslims gangs come at night and cut them up for firewood.

"The dogs of that area are dying because the muslims run their cabs over them.

"One cannot leave anything in the garden since things just disappear at night.

"They even steal light bulbs from the porches.

"Point of this long post is, we don't force them to live in ghettos, they themselves create their own slums.

"They don't like living in housing societies and the mosque is the centre of their existence.

"They create their ghettos around mosques so that they can answer the azan 5 times a day.

"And this is how they take over us, bit by bit, house by house, area by area."

Posted by: arjun.sevak at June 29, 2007 11:05 AM

A little further down the thread, arjun gave a little more information, in response to questions from other posters:

arjun.sevak | June 30, 2007 1:23 AM

"Thank you J.S. I don't want to wish what happened to the people of my neighbourhood upon any infidel, but this is what is going to happen to us anywhere there is a muslim population. And this is the beginning.

"PMK they built their shacks over a period of 15 years.

'At first these were temporary structures and the authorities did not bother much with them.

'Slowly they spread over an area of several acres and now it is a full blown ghetto with 7 mosques.

'But it all began with a single mosque, *the mosque that got the minaret* {Nota bene, anybody here who is from Switzerland! - stopping those minarets is a *very* good idea - dda}.

'They never sought permission for any building, and some years back when an enthusiastic official tried to demolish their illegal structures they carried out a protest march.

'Then the politicians intervened and let them be.

'This ghetto is a "state within a state", i.e., the law of the land ends where the ghetto begins.

'Building inspectors don't go in, cleaners don't go in, meter readers don't go in.

'Some politician gave the order that since these people are "poverty struck" they must get free electricity and so they get free electricity.

'Their major occupations are - driving cabs, basic iron fabrication, carpentary, auto mechanical works and butchery.

'There are 3 such ghettos in my city that are built entirely on encroached government land.

'Regarding your question that it won't happen to me again, I am not optimistic about that.

'interestinconundrum, yes you are right, the quality of life has gone up now that we are far away from muslim population. I miss my home, but that place is not just what it used to be any more." END OF POST.

As in India, so also in England...and Australia...and France...and Denmark...and Canada...and everywhere else that Muslims have colonised and are colonising.

DDA,

Why did the muslims allow Jews to settle in Jerusalem in the 1800s ?

DDA,

The Romans persecuted Jews and exiled them from Palestine and the muslim Ottoman Turks let Jews come back to Jerusalem in the 1800s.

So why did the muslims allow Jews to settle in Jerusalem in the 1800s ?

DDA,

Regarding Islamoforming.

Muslims in America are making great contributions to our nation and that is the reason muslims earn much more than the average American.

So muslims are different in different areas of the world and even in India, the richest man in India is a muslim who is helping the Indian people progress.

dumbledoresarmy,

What you have described is pretty much dead on the description C.S. Lewis provided of how to best understand the Golden Rule in his writings in Mere Christianity.

Thanks for the confirmation.

DDA,

Why would Jews want to move to jerusalem and pay taxes to the muslims in the 1800s ?

DDA,

In addition to the above question, why would Jews want to move to Jerusalem in the 1800s if, as you say, Jews were persecuted by muslims ever since the 7th century, for over a thousand years ?

Thanks dda, I've just finished reading through the links you posted. Very illuminating, alarming and depressing to see the parallels you point out between my own and Arjun's experiences. A global phenomena, n'est pa?

Can I just say that in writing about my experiences I drew more or less randomly from events in my life. There are many more I could have mentioned and may do so in the future. It seems Israel is not the only front line in our struggle against jihad. There are front lines drawn throughout so many of our towns and cities in the free world now. Some of the front lines are physical and tangible, others are cultural, intellectual, spiritual and moral. I've spent most of my life trying to adhere to the liberal view of tolerance and acceptance, which I thought was the consesus view of our society, only to find that it wasn't the consesus view at all, that a lot of people were getting bloody angry, and that I was one of them! As a bunch of people we seem to be hitting tolerance-fatigue.

I'm going to re-run a comment I posted a few days ago on a different thread, which shows my anger and concern. I've got to say, I think a fight is coming our way. Sorry it's a long post, I can be verbose, it's one of my failings. My old dad used to throw up his arms and declare, "I swear that boy was vaccinated with a gramophone needle!" Anyway, here goes:

"Robert and Hugh are fond of posting 1938 alerts, yet for us here in Britain it's 1641 - the year before the outbreak of the English Civil War.

The minarets issue, and the way the Swiss vote met with approval from all the common folk of Europe, points to an on-going, across-the-board, hardening of attitudes towards Islam. Sadly, in voicing dismay at the outcome of the referendum our political leaders once again fell into line with the Islamists and failed to support this glorious expression of the democratic will of the people. What's even worse, and the thing that makes me truly despair, is to stand by and watch as our spiritual leaders, the heads of our churches and even the Vicar of Christ himself, fail to defend Christian civilisation against the cultural onslaught of Islam.

Brothers and sisters, for all our casual talk of civil conflict, there are many that now regard it as nothing less than inevitable and it's become a common talking point wherever friends meet in the pubs, cafes and restaurants here in Britain. We're polarising with shocking speed. Day by day, attitudes are hardening. A great weight of history rests on the outcome of the general election next summer, and upon the amount of ground gained by the anti-Muslim nationalist parties in that election. How that will affect the country is anyone's guess, but I fear the prospects for peace are bleak. Yesterdays unthinkable has become tomorrow's necessity.

Our own governments will not admit the truth, for in truth, they are the cause of the problem. For decades now, their illusory, utopian fantasies of multiculturalism, their abdication of any responsibility to protect our western values, their throwing open of our doors to allow access for the outriders of what has ALWAYS BEEN an enemy religion, their arrogance that they would never be called to account for their criminal actions, has finally exposed them as morally redundant. While indulging themselves in their sickening games of self-righteous one-upmanship, those Quislings have sold us all down the river. Did they really think they could disregard us? Did they really think we wouldn't have a point of view? They thought they were doing the right thing, but all they've been doing is dragging us all to the edge of a precipice. Does anyone think, seriously, that we can get out of this without a fight?

Many second and third generation Muslims, having been born here, claim British citizenship, yet hold to their ideas about Muslim supremacy. In their eyes they have as much right as anybody to be here, and they will not leave. Yet their hostile ideology makes of them an implacable enemy whose presence cannot be tolerated, so some level of open conflict is almost certainly inevitable. I wish there was some other way. I wish there was some way we could sit down and sort out our differences, but there is no middle ground because this isn't about land or food or money. It's about core values.

We in the west have a particular horror of religious warfare. We've been there before. There's precious little room for negotiation, and even less chance of compromise when you are fighting for your core beliefs, which makes religious confrontations uniquely grim and bitter. However, through no choice of our own this struggle has been thrust upon us, and no matter how earnestly we may desire a peaceful resolution to the problem, we MUST achieve a safe and secure future for ourselves and our families, and failure will mean the destruction of our very way of life, so our options are limited. In order to ensure the freedom and sovereignty and the continued life of this nation we must set about the removal of Islam from our society and there is little chance that can be achieved without some level of confrontation.

Now I'm not saying the British people should pour out to fight in the streets. I don't need to; for when a society is put under pressure as ours is now, history always provides its own catalyst. It's as inevitable as the sun will rise tomorrow. When and where that catalyst will occur is unknown to me, but it will come."

Do you even begin to realize how creepy you are?

Anyway, for the benefit of others reading here who are unfamiliar with the subject, and who may be confused by your attempt to argue that the Jews can't have been treated so badly, if they went to live there:

The reason why a continual steady trickle of Jewish pilgrims and some returning to live (mostly scholars and artisans), all through the centuries, kept on creeping back to the Land of Israel, both out of the Christian lands and out of the other Muslim-dominated lands, is because it was *Home*, like no other place on the face of the earth; because it contained their most sacred places (what we Aussies have learned to call 'Dreaming Places'), because it contains the bones of their ancestors - Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Sarah, Rachel, Leah and Rebekah, David and Solomon; because, as I stated quite clearly in my posting above, it is considered a mitzvah, a good deed, to live in the land of Israel. Many went to Israel in old age, hoping to be buried on the Mount of Olives.

So some went there, and even made their homes there, although going there was dangerous and expensive; and *despite* knowing that it was inhabited by evil barbaric Muslims. Jews didn't go there because the Muslims were nice - the Muslims weren't, they were mostly quite horrid; Jews went simply because they, the Jews, wanted to be in their sacred homeland, and were prepared to grit their teeth and put up with the horrible Muslims who infested it.

Did Christian pilgrims and monks and nuns go to the land of Israel, the Holy Land, during the period of the Muslim Imperium, because it was a safe, happy, fun tourist destination? NO. They went simply because their desire to see (and, in some cases, to live a life of prayer within) the land where their Lord had walked on earth, was so strong that it overcame their fear of the horrible murderous thieving Muslims who swarmed all over it, robbing and insulting and cheating and sometimes even killing the Christians who dared to visit.

Hard Rain

I'm in Australia. We're not in half as bad a position as you are, overall; though there are heavily Islamoformed parts of Sydney and Melbourne that are well on the way. But our total number of Mohammedans is not even a million, yet. Yet.

Have you checked out 'New English Review'? It's the blog where Spencer's friend Mr Hugh Fitzgerald (I think the name is a nom de plume) hangs out when he isn't instructing us here. It has a UK and European focus.

http://www.newenglishreview.org/

And here's something else, just for you, because I think it might help:

http://pajamasmedia.com/ejectejecteject/2007/05/21/you-are-not-alone-part-1/

Click on the link then scroll on down through. The bit on game theory and prisoner's dilemma and Cheating is interesting and all worthwhile, but the part you need is the part headed 'The Remnant'. Read that.

And you are not alone. There's a chap called 'Ovinesongs'. FredMk1 you've already met in these threads. There's a lady over at NER who calls herself 'Esmerelda Weatherwax' - she used to post here as 'Granny Weatherwax', a few years back, and still looks in occasionally; and there's her friend 'Mary Jackson'. There was a 'Richard the Lionheart' (not the British blogger Lionheart, but he named himself in honor of same); he lived in London, with a wife and young child, but he had reached the point you have reached. There are others. More, many more, than you think. All you have to do is find each other.

And you know what I think: I think it is people like you that are meant, when the old story speaks of the Cave in Craig-y-Dinas where the great bronze bell hangs, and Arthur sleeps surrounded by his knights...until they are needed.

From Gwyn Jones' 'Welsh Legends and Folktales',the tale 'Where Arthur Sleeps' - "Who are these warriors?" said the Welshman. "And who is their sleeping king?" "The king is Arthur, and those that surround him are the men of the Island of the Mighty. They sleep with their steeds and their arms because a day shall come when land and sky shall cower at the clamour of a host, and the bell will tremble and ring, and then those warriors will ride out with Arthur at their head, and drive our foes headlong into the sea, and there shall be justice and peace among men for as long as the world endures".

It is people like *you* who *are* those Knights, who are hearing that bell begin to swing, and tremble, and ring; and who are stirring and stretching and waking.

dda

Thank you brother, you do me great honour. And I'm grateful for your guidance. I'll find the others as you suggest.

dda

Thank you brother, you do me great honour and I'm grateful for your guidance. I'll find the others as you suggest.

DDA,

You said the Jews had to put up with the Muslims in Palestine.

In what way did they have to put up with the muslims ?

was it just taxes they had to pay ?

btw, does Nonie Darwish also say that muslims are an infestation ?

Hard Rain: Many thanks for your very insightful, all-too-familiar, and frightening tale of the oppression, discrimination, violence, and arrogance you and your fellow Brits are subjected to on a daily basis from the Muslims overrunning your communities. Alas, I have learned that whenever Muslims become at least 5% of a population, this is exactly the kind of behavior you can expect to be displayed by them. Truly, these ingrates bite the very hands that sustain them.

And kudos to you for your brilliant comment that you posted on a different thread. I do not honestly believe that any one of us here could have said it better, or portrayed so chillingly the fate that is to befall us all if we do not take a united stand against political correctness, creeping (and in many instances, blatant) shari'a, and the Islamic determination to turn our Western lands into the same inbred, illiterate, poverty-stricken, immoral, and despotic cess-pools from whence these cretins originally hail. Those who assist and/or encourage the madness, violence, intolerence, hatred, and attempts at domination by far too many Muslims need to be branded for the traitors to Western civilization, culture, and humanity that they truly are.

I do hope you will be a regular contributer here on JW - I so admire and appreciate your postings.

heart,

Just as Jews/Christians do not follow the controversial aspects of the bible, muslims do not follow the controversial aspects of the Koran and the statistics prove that too.

Here is what the statistics say :

The problem lies more among non-muslims than muslims, according to every major statistics regarding violence.

I wish the opposite were true so I can be on your side, but I have to go with the facts and not emotions.

Here are 10 areas pointing to non-muslims being more violent :

(1) 1400 islamic terrorist attacks should be compared to the number of attacks by the US military on targets and the number of sorties run by the US air force every day since 2001 which have resulted in hundreds of thousands of civilians dead according to the Lancet report and that is only in Iraq and does not include the tens of thousands dead in Afghanistan due to US collateral actions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancet_surveys_of_Iraq_War_casualties

(2) More than a hundred million have died due to genocides in non-muslim countries compared to the genocides in muslim countries

http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/dictat.html

(3) in non-war zones :

I am sure you have heard of stories or read the news about your town's murders etc and most of them were done by non-muslims and probably non by Al-Qaeda, so you are more in danger from your fellow citizens.

If you were living in a muslim country, there is a good chance you could be a victim of a muslim but at the same time, the murder rates in a place like Saudi Arabia (rank : 61) is much lower than in the US ( rank : 24) and several muslim countries have lower murder rates than the US.

ref : http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

(4 ) In fact, the countries with the most murder rates, the top 12 are non-muslim.

ref : http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

ref : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

(5) Here is a site that records the fact that there are more non-muslims committing mass murder than muslims :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_murderers_and_spree_killers_by_number_of_victims

(6) you do not find American muslims killing "infidels" in America today and in fact all the killing sprees in the world are overwhelmingly committed by non-muslims

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spree_killer

(7) Compared to American muslims targeting non-muslims, many more of the non-muslim majority target muslims in America .

The targeting of innocent minorities for alleged crimes/sins perpetrated by others is common everywhere, including the US : In 2001 after the 9/11 attacks, Arab Americans, Muslims, and Sikhs were victimized in nearly five percent of the total number of hate crimes reported that year (481 out of 9,730), a seventeen-fold increase over the prior year.

http://www.civilrights.org/publications/hatecrimes/arab-americans.html

(8) Jewish militias forced palestinians to flee their homes during the war of independence in 1948 when the Israeli army committed more atrocities and killed more civilians than the Arabs did, in large part because the Israelis captured 400 Arab towns and villages, whereas the Arabs took fewer than a dozen Israeli settlements.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killings_and_massacres_during_the_1948_Palestine_War

Regarding genocides committed by Jews in Old Testament times :

A Jerusalem-based Holocaust Studies Professor Yehuda Bauer stated : "As a Jew, I must live with the fact that the civilization I inherited ... encompasses the call for genocide in its canon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history#Before_1490

(9) Here are the facts from the US dept. of justice:

American men and women who have killed their own children or loved ones or relatives or ex-spouses between 1976 and 1997 number at 116,814 ( annual rate of 5562 )

ref : http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/ascii/wo.txt

Annual worldwide high end estimate of honor killings : 5000 per year

ref : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing

Tragically, Muslims don't follow sharia as much as non-muslims follow the ideology of hate in killing their daughters/children, loved ones, intimate partners or ex-spouses or relatives.

No matter how much sharia is out there, the sad fact is that non-muslims have been more violent towards their relatives/daughters/loved ones/ex-spouses/children/intimate partners than muslims have been been

ref : http://crime.about.com/b/2004/10/29/parents-killing-their-children.htm

(10) Both violent and non-violent muslims in prison number about 9,600 Muslim inmates in federal prisons in 2003 out of a US prison population of 7.3 million, so out of one muslim (either violent or non-violent ) going into prison, there are about 760 non-muslims in prison, not considering converts to islam in prison since the crime was committed before their conversion.

ref : http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/03/02/record.prison.population/

ref : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States%27_prisons

Conservative estimate of the muslim population in the US taken from the Pew Research Center instead of the figures reported by the Council on American-Islamic Relations which reports 6-7 million muslims :

2.5 million muslims in 2009 out of 300 million Americans, meaning for every 1 muslim, there are about 120 Americans according to the Pew Research Center

ref : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_the_United_States#Demographics

So muslims in prison ( both violent and non-violent) 1 for every 760 non-muslims

Muslims in the general US population : 1 muslim for every 120 Americans meaning there are about 6.3 times less muslims in prison as compared to the general muslim population in the US.

Non-muslims in the general US population : 297,500,000 which is about 99% of the population according to the 2009 data from the Pew Research Center

ref : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_the_United_States#Demographics

Non-muslims (before converting in prison) in the prison population : 7,290,400 which is about 99% of the prison population.

If muslims in prison are 6.3 times less in number than the general muslim population in America and non-muslims in prison represent about the same proportion as the general population,so is it right to say that muslims are on the whole much less violent than non-muslims ? or even if the data is horribly skewed for some inconceivable reason, we still cannot say that muslims in America are more violent than the non-muslims in America.

Islam does not have a hold on muslims as seen in numerous muslims leaving Islam and Islam does not make muslims follow Sharia as can be seen in numerous muslim countries that do not have sharia :

Burkina Faso
Chad
Gambia
Guinea
Mali
Senegal
Somalia
Kazakhstan
Kyrgystan
Tajikstan
Turkmenistan
Uzbekistan
Albania
Azerbaijan
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Kosovo
Turkey

Heart of a Lioness

Your kind comments are much appreciated. I count it as my very good fortune that I seem to have fallen amongst friends and fellow-travellers. At least here we can join hands across the world. For a long time I thought I was on my own.

I'll certainly carry on posting if you don't mind having to trawl through my long-winded and dubious prose!

Hard Rain -

don't worry. Some of us - like me - write long postings too.

Do your wife and daughters share your knowledge and fears? If they do, please persuade them to adopt a nom de plume and wade in. There are quite a few women from different countries who are regular posters here - Isabellathecrusader and Gravenimage are US citizens, but Spirit Wolf is a Canadian lady, Mrs J is an Englishwoman, and 'eurodhimmi' and 'epistemology' are women from continental Europe. I'm sure Mrs J for one would appreciate it if your wife joined the discussion; they could compare notes.

Call me sister, since I'm a middle-aged Aussie matron with Scots, Irish, English, Danish and German ancestors. I can understand the slip, though, as my nom de plume has a 'masculine' sound at first glance. I see it as short for '[member of] dumbledore's army', in a semi-jocular reference intended to bring out the analogy that I perceive, between the activities of the DA/ Dumbledore's Army in Rowlings' fifth 'Harry Potter' novel, 'Order of the Phoenix', formed by Harry and his friends to practise their skills in Defence Against the Dark Arts, and what happens here in Mr Spencer's virtual Hedge School for those who wish to Resist the Third Jihad.

When I originally chose to stop lurking and step onto the comments floor in 2007, I also thought of using 'order of the phoenix' but ruled it out as far too presumptuous; I privately reserve that term to designate all those who physically and publicly under their own names put themselves right out in the firing line as Resisters - e.g. Mr Spencer, Nonie Darwish, Wafa Sultan, Fr Zakaria Botros, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Rifqa Bary, Geert Wilders, the SIOE, members of Pax Europa, and so on, as well as the young soldiers of the IDF and indeed all non-dhimmified Jews everywhere. These are the real-life equivalent of Rowlings' fictional Order of the Phoenix, going up against the real-life equivalent of Voldemort and the Death Eaters. Some - Theo Van Gogh, Fr Daniel Sysoyev - have already been killed on the front lines.

http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp343/livingengine/troll.jpg

hard rain,

No, I have not counted the number of terrorist incidents in the name of Islam since 9/11 since I have been busy reading and seeing the local news since 9/11 about murders committed in the name of hate by non-muslims in my state ( oklahoma ) on a daily basis and I have not read any news in oklohama about muslims committing murders in the name of islam since 9/11.

Since 9/11, how many muslims in your state have committed murders in the name of islam, compared to how many non-muslims have committed murders in the name of hate ?

living,

If you can come up with any viable study that shows muslims are more dangerous than non-muslims, let me know, thanks

DDA,

Do Nonie Darwish, Wafa Sultan, Fr Zakaria Botros, Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Rifqa Bary

refer to muslims as less than human ?

Hate begets hate, so the best way to change the hearts of the tiny minority of muslims who practice hate is to criticize without making muslims seem less than human

dda

Oops... sorry ma'am. I thought... er... Dumbledore... that is, I assumed... erm... Well, I warned you I'm an idiot!

Anyway thanks for the gender clarification, on yourself and our other resistance comrades. Harrumph! Newbies, eh? What can you do with them?

However I suspect we all agree the really important thing is that together we all speak with one ever-strengthening voice.

You have an impressive and noble lineage, sister, some of which I share. My family moved to England when I was a boy, but by birth I'm a Scot, a Celt, by God's grace a Highlander and a Hebridean to boot. The slogan of my clan is 'Buaidh Na Bas' - Victory or Death. Once I regarded those words as little more than the fading echo of a romantic past. Not any more. In our veins, sister, the blood runs deep, does it not?

As for my wife, I hardly dare unleash her upon an unsuspecting world. She is second generation Polish, very European, beautiful, proud and very Catholic. Believe me when I say that I am the very acme of restrained and understated tolerance in comparison to she, who bears the spirit of a true crusader and possesses a spine cast from pure blue steel in the shipyards of Gdansk. She gets a look in her eyes that makes me understand why people revere Saint Joan.
Our daughters, though still young, are cut from the same formidable cloth as their mother, so what can I say? I'll talk to them about posting here but don't blame me if they burst forth in a clarion blast of blaring trumpets and banners unfurling. You have been warned!

Your 'Order of the Phoenix' idea is spot on, by the way, and lists many of the men and women I most admire in our hard-pressed world, our world under siege, where having the courage to speak the truth invites not only the murderous intentions of the jihadis, but often, heartbreakingly, the condemnation of those among us who should know better. But the season turns towards the birth of Our Lord, so we should take heart. This isn't the first time we've faced the enemies of reason in the endless battle for freedom, justice and equality. We have handed them defeat before and will do so again. This is our Forever War; our forefathers fought it, and our descendants will fight on. All that's required of us is that we too play our part.

Let's also keep Gilad Shalit in our thoughts at this time. Come home safe to your family, young man. And soon.

45ch

Hello. I was wondering when you would finally get around to me.

You ask "since 9/11, how many muslims in your state have committed murders in the name of islam?"

Well, I don't live in a state, I live in England, so let me see... Oh yes, shall I tell you a story?

On the morning of July 7th 2005, a young friend of ours, one of my wife's colleagues, was hurrying through central London. He'd just finished an early business meeting and was weighed down with a briefcase, laptop, a small overhead projector and all the other things an ambitious young executive needs to cart around with him when visiting clients. The morning was warm, the young man was hot and flustered, but he hurried along the busy street towards the bus he needed to catch in order to reach his next meeting. Heading towards Tavistock Square he could see his bus, the number 30, waiting at the stop. Then the strap for his projector case slipped from his shoulder, almost tripping him as the apparatus slid down his arm. Cursing quietly to himself and fumbling with his cases and bags he decided to stop there and sort himself out. It would only take a moment and he would catch the next bus, which would be along in just a few minutes, so he set about his task.
Suddenly, he later told us, there was a deafening roar and he looked up to see the roof of the bus flying through the air. Simultaneous to this, an arc of blood sprayed out across the pavement and up the wall of the nearby building.
It wasn't until later that he realised that if he had been really determined to make it, he would have been on the bus when the bomb detonated.

Other bombs went off across London that morning. When it was over they counted 56 dead and 700 injured. All four of the suicide bombers were also dead. Their names were Mohammad Sidique Khan, Shehzad Tanweer, Hasib Hussain and Germaine Lindsay.

Al Jazeera later aired a videotape statement from Mohammad Sidique Khan. In it he said:

"Our drive and motivation doesn't come from tangible commodities that this world has to offer. Our religion is Islam, obedience to the one true God and following the footsteps of the final prophet messenger."

Any more questions, 45ch?

Hard Rain, you stated :

45ch

Hello. I was wondering when you would finally get around to me.

You ask "since 9/11, how many muslims in your state have committed murders in the name of islam?"

Well, I don't live in a state, I live in England, so let me see... Oh yes, shall I tell you a story?

Any more questions, 45ch?

Comment :

There are murderers in every religion but my question was very simple; how many murders happened in the name of islam, compared to murders by non-muslims in the name of hate ?

Here are the facts from the US dept. of justice:

American men and women who have killed their own children or loved ones or relatives or ex-spouses between 1976 and 1997 number at 116,814 ( annual rate of 5562 )

ref : http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/ascii/wo.txt

Annual worldwide high end estimate of honor killings : 5000 per year

ref : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing

Tragically, Muslims don't follow sharia as much as non-muslims follow the ideology of hate in killing their daughters/children, loved ones, intimate partners or ex-spouses or relatives.

No matter how much sharia is out there, the sad fact is that non-muslims have been more violent towards their relatives/daughters/loved ones/ex-spouses/children/intimate partners than muslims have been been

ref : http://crime.about.com/b/2004/10/29/parents-killing-their-children.htm

If you need any other areas in which it seems non-muslims are more violent, let me know.

DDA,

You say Islam "commands" and yet we find numerous muslims interpreting those commands differently, just as christians either ignore or interpret controversial parts of the bible as commands that are only to be applied for the time when revelations happened and not as commands for today.

How does a sufi muslim interpret the islamic commands ?

The fact that non-muslims appear to be more violent than muslims, especially here in the US, shows that those commands are being interpreted in a more moderate way

dda

Once again I owe you thanks for your support. The counter-arguments you presented to 45ch's claims were so overwhelmingly conclusive that I now KNOW for sure that I am on the side of righteousness and justice. I'm just glad that you and I are on the same side - I'd be terrified to face you across the barricades!

Surely by now you can dust off your hands, having comprehensively demolished every point advanced by 45ch. However, I doubt there is anything any of us could say to that individual that would make the tiniest dent in their blinkered beliefs, no matter how incisive the logic and irrefutable the evidence presented. I'm frankly suspicious of 45ch, not so much because of their spurious assertions, which you dismantled with such ease anyway, but with the logic he/she/it (delete where applicable) is using. To me it seems perculiarly elliptical, self referencing and distinctly non-Greek, rather like the warped logic of those Muslims who tell us that if we feel insulted by being called Kuffars, then we should convert to Islam and then they won't call us nasty names anymore. How's that for a remedy?! The same insulting nature of this logic is stamped all over 45ch's arguments.

To my mind 45ch is at best a bigoted, unthinking time-waster or at worst, a bigoted but very knowing time-waster, constanly trying to tie us down checking and re-checking information and statistics, and arguing in loops that ultimately lead nowhere. I think this is what's led some of us to suspect that this person is a Muslim. Another indication of this is the imperviousness to compassion you observed in 45ch's response to my post - very much the hallmark of the committed jihadi. The jihad is prosecuted against us at all levels. I've little doubt they are in these forums too, trying to muddy the waters. My suggestion is to ignore this person and let them go play elsewhere.

Don't get me wrong. I'm up for a good argument. I'd love to get a real discussion on real issues with someone who could coherently argue the other side of the case. I sincerely want to hear any counter-arguments that anyone may have, but only if they can clearly express their views within a logical framework, instead of inviting us to chase our tails and get nowhere, as 45ch is trying so hard to do.

As I know you will understand (though 45ch probably won't), the young friend of ours who made such a narrow escape on 7/7 was very traumatised by what he'd witnessed. My wife sent two of her colleagues to comfort him and they all stayed in town that night. He cried a lot, drank a lot and eventually passed out, also understandably. His friends put him to bed. That young man is now an active member of SIOE, as am I.

When the jihadis take our lives, they think that they are sowing terror amongst us, but in this they are deluded, for they seriously misjudge the character and temper of our people. Every bombing, every murder, harms a few of us, sometimes many of us, but it also creates a much larger community of horrified and enraged witnesses who turn to the Resistance and say: "This has to stop. How can I help?" Thus we fight in ever-growing numbers.

Merry Christmas dda, to you and all resisters everywhere.

A happy Advent season and a merry Christmas to you too, 'Hard Rain'; my regards to your wife and daughters.

Thank you for your kind words; and I concur with your canny analysis of the current bandersnatch (aka threadjacker/ bandwidth stealer).

God bless you, and may all His holy angels surround your house.

There's a lovely Jewish prayer in the Krias Shema: I found it in Chaim Potok's "My Name is Asher Lev". It invokes the four great Archangels and the cloud of the glory.

"In the Name of the Lord, the God of Israel:
may Michael be at my right hand, Gabriel at my left
before me Uriel, behind me Raphael
and above my head the Divine Presence of God".

It seems to me to be a perfectly good prayer for a Christian as well as a Jew; I hope our Jewish colleagues here won't mind if we Christians ask if we can use it too. Unlike our own traditional 'four angels round my bed' prayer it's very much the prayer of someone who is going out into a dark world full of danger; but the pillar of fire and cloud is with them.

Now I must away and write all my last-minute Christmas cards...

DDA,

The comment about sufi muslims is to illustrate that not all muslims think alike.

Mr Spencer himself does admit that not all muslims think alike when he states " It is continually noteworthy that Muslims all too often present themselves either as bloodthirsty, violent thugs, or as cringing weaklings who are "traumatized" by an unkind word "(end of quote )

So if muslims don't think alike, does that explain why we have 57 different muslim countries in the world, including numerous muslim countries that are non-sharia and democratic ?

Another example of people in religion not thinking alike :

Most christians have a moderate interpretation of Luke 19, likewise, almost all muslims either ignore controversial parts of the Koran or interpret it to mean that those commands were for that period in time and not as commands for today.

For example : Matthew 15:1-7

Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!"
Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.' But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,' he is not to 'honor his father with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you (end of quote )

Comment :

How would you interpret what Jesus said; was He calling for the death penalty of rude children or was Jesus simply pointing out the fact that capital punishment for rude children was the Law since the Age of Grace only started after Jesus sacrificed on the cross to pay for the sins of all rude children.

Now, would Jesus have agreed to any children being put to death ? off course not, since He clearly said that anybody without sin is the only one who can put somebody to death.

Likewise, the commands in the Koran could be interpreted several different ways and that is the reason we have 57 different muslim countries including numerous muslim countries that do not have sharia and are democratic

Hard Rain,

How do you explain the fact that there are 6.3 times less number of muslims in the American prison population as compared to non-muslims ?

ref : http://www.bernardgoldberg.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=31532&p=91738#p91738

It just shows that muslims are just like non-muslims and they interpret the controversial aspects of their religion in ways that does not lead to violence

Are you attempting to parody a Muslim response?

Or are you in fact a Muslim, hurling at Mr Spencer and the commenters here an epithet that you

1. must surely know to be factually false (Mr Spencer is not of Jewish ethnicity and is a Christian, following the Greek Melkite Catholic tradition, while most of those who read and post here are Gentiles from many ethnic backgrounds, though our Jewish contributors are many and most welcome)

but which (2) - because of the irrational and vicious hatred of Jews which your death cult has taught you - is the worst insult you can think of hurling at anybody?

Know that if you insist on calling *me* a 'Jew' (which I am not; I am of north-west European ethnicity, and Christian faith) I will take it as the highest imaginable honour. To me it is not the grossest insult imaginable but, rather, a compliment.