I told you that Sunnis and Shia would be at each other's throats in Iraq. Hugh told you repeatedly, eloquently, and with substantial documentation from history and theology. But of course Hugh and I are just greasy Islamophobes -- what do we know? We were confidently assured by the likes of Dinesh D'Souza that Sunni/Shia strife was an epiphenomenon that would soon evanesce in the warm sun of democracy. "Iraq - Iranian Shia Buses attacked in Baqdad [sic]," from Iran's Ahlul Bayt News Agency, January 27 (thanks to Twostellas):
BAGHDAD - Gunmen in a speeding car opened fire on Wednesday in the Iraqi capital at two buses carrying Iranian pilgrims, killing an Iranian woman and an Iraqi driver, the Baghdad security command said.Wounded were transported to Al Hakim Hospital in Al Sheala region for treatment, the source added. Although an Iranian Authority said wounded will transport to Iran if needed.
The attack on a main road in Al Adel District, northwestern Baghdad Baghdad also wounded five Iranian pilgrims, according to a report. Pilgrims were traveling from holy city of Najaf to holy city of Kazemayn.
The attack came after two bloody days in Baghdad in which more than 50 people were killed by suicide car bombs targeting main hotels and an interior ministry office.
The assaults broke a seven-week lull in major attacks on the capital as Iraq heads into a pivotal general election on March 7 that could set it more firmly on the path to stability or potentially widen its sectarian and ethnic divisions....
But of course Hugh and I are just greasy Islamophobes...
Dunno about the grease part, but any Infidel who does not fear Islam is either crazy or a fool.
*** 8:7 ***
That much is obvious. Or at least it should be. And it's a dangerous fact that it ain't.
To be expected...
I bet this won't sit well with Amahdinejad and the mad mullahs...Some kind of retaliation is called for...
Israel should be on alert...
Sunni vs. Shia
Like a faction fight between two elements of the Nazi Party.
You know, this has been going on since the prophet's death. But, when push comes to shove - it's Islam against the world. So why should we interfere when the Sunnis shoot the Shia or the Shia bomb the Sunni. We don't have a horse in this race towards the cliff.
Isabella, Alarmed Pig Farmer and others who have contributed:
Here's some fresh meat from USC:
http://dailytrojan.com/2010/01/26/letter-to-the-editor-12/
How do we know it wasn't the filthy Jooooooooos who did the shooting? Smells like Mossad and a Zionist plot to me. [sarcasm off]
nothing peaceful about islam so how would you get peace, to keep peace in an islamic state you need a thug type dictator. so bringing democracy will ensure upheavels among and within islamic states.
But, but...the surge worked...
Keep it greasy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OryNmWrh3Rk
Sorry folks, but an episodic act (or acts) of terror does not make a civil war. Much more possible in that regard is the de-certifying of hundreds of Sunni candidates in the up-coming elections.
I continue to marvel at those who wish the current government of Iraq - friendly towards America and not in pursuit of WMDs - be undermined by ethnic and/or sectarian strife. Its replacement by a more fanatical regime would certainly be detrimental to US and Western security interests. The thesis that sectarian strife in Iraq will automatically be a good thing for the West is a specious one.
Alarmed Pig Farmer, Great post at USC.
Sems like I may have been permanently barred from that site. I've tried posting two comments neither which showed up!
I had to post twice to get it to take. Typical web service.
The huddled masses needed to have their good old College try.
Like back in the day when it meant something. Unlike today where Major College Sports runs cover for a lower education.
Professor Obama left Iraq out to dry.
Actually, Professor Obama has hung just about everyone out to dry.
Professors should not become Presidents. Especially when recruited from INVERTED U.
Seriously...not all Sunnis and Shi'as fight. I have a many Shi'a friends and we get along perfectly.
--------------------------
Islamic Community
You have friends? Or really just acquaintances that you don't want to kill?
And Saudi (Sunni) satellite cable provider just yanked Iran's Arabic language channel from its line-up. Details at:
http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2010/01/arab-satellite-removes-iranian-tv.html
Humza...Your friends are not 'real' Mahoundians...Either that or your not...
You have friends? Or really just acquaintances that you don't want to kill "yet"?
There...
Given time and a few "rumors", the Blood and Death that is islam will demand sacrifice...human sacrifice.
No islam...Know Peace.
Know islam...throw up.
"Sunni jihadis open fire on buses full of Iranian pilgrims, killing two people"
must have be unarmed pilgrims....
tambourine player
Ah, the great divide here at JW between all those who have no illusions about Islam, but who differ respecting what to do with the screwed-up Islamic world, continues unabated. I'm of course with you, Cornelius, on this, as I have been in the past. Divide and conquer, while possessed of no incorrect or sentimental ideas respecting Islam, is the route you and I prefer. Tough love and all that (which would include any reason remotely legal to exclude more Muslim immigration to Western nations).
Others, very reasonable, informed and sane others to be sure, see discord and chaos among Muslims the better result to be preferred. But this option will produce even more instability, including in the markets of the world. Better to monitor the idiocy than to promote more of it, though all with sense can agree that Islam is a giant pain in the ass for all of mankind, even for millions of Muslims who have not yet seen the light, who do not grasp just how dysfunctional and awful their religion really is.
The world has a spoiled child among the major religions of the earth and what to do with this brat is a matter that reasonable minds can differ over. But that Islam is not a child among adults is an idea which should be given no credence by anyone who desires to be deemed credible.
Thanks for the validation, old friend.
I understand the musings of our interlocutors here; were Iraq like Iran, an anti-American entity in pursuit of WMDs and supporting terrorism abroad, sectarian strife, public chaos, and possible regime change would certainly be a welcome development. As it is, desiring the destruction of this regime makes no geo-political sense.
Corni sez:
"The thesis that sectarian strife in Iraq will automatically be a good thing for the West is a specious one.
desiring the destruction of this regime makes no geo-political sense."
Corni, you and those who agree with you look at this whole thing with a western, optimistic and contructive view that would require reason and logic to be applied over age old hatreds.
That is not the case here.
In Iraq, we have comitted the monumental folly to establish a nation under the sharia.
We have then created a Shiite regime in a country where the entitled Sunni minority sees them as rafidite dogs and apostates. The moment our policing and nation building ends, they will be at each others throats, whether that makes sense, geo-political or otherwise, will always elude people like us who are conditioned to think in rational terms.
Does that help you grasp the reality of it?
Corni sez:
"The thesis that sectarian strife in Iraq will automatically be a good thing for the West is a specious one.
desiring the destruction of this regime makes no geo-political sense."
Corni, you and those who agree with you look at this whole thing with a western, optimistic and contructive view that would require reason and logic to be applied over age old hatreds.
That is not the case here.
In Iraq, we have comitted the monumental folly to establish a nation under the sharia.
We have then created a Shiite regime in a country where the entitled Sunni minority sees them as rafidite dogs and apostates. The moment our policing and nation building ends, they will be at each others throats, whether that makes sense, geo-political or otherwise, will always elude people like us who are conditioned to think in rational terms.
Does that help you grasp the reality of it?
You guys wanna know about muslim true face.
Here we go, I have the news from the country where the muslim become majority citizen.
=========================================================
Security was restored Sunday after two Protestant churches and a pastor’s house were set on fire
allegedly by a Muslim mob in Sibuhuan, Padang Lawas regency, North Sumatra.
This is reportedly the first time such attacks have happened in the history of North Sumatra, where significant Muslim and Christian communities live alongside each other.
Two unregistered churches were burned down last Friday night by about 1,000 people in Sibuhuan.
The attack was the culmination of tensions between Muslims and Christians over the latter’s use of buildings not registered as churches.
North Sumatra Police spokesman Sr. Comr. Baharuddin Djafar said Sunday the attack caused no fatalities, and hundreds of Christians fled.
However, two days after the arson attack, none of the attackers have been arrested by the police.
“We are still investigating the case. We have yet to be able to identify the perpetrators as the burning of the HKBP and GPdI churches were carried out en masse,” Baharuddin told The Jakarta Post.
The leader of HKBP District I overseeing South Tapanuli and West Sumatra, pastor Marolop Sinaga, said at least 272 of his congregation at the HKBP Sibuhuan Resort Sion Nauli Ujungbatu Sosa fled their homes to avoid possible attacks.
He also expressed hope that the local authorities could restore peace and guarantee that his congregation would be able to worship securely and freely.
A police interim investigation, according to Baharuddin, revealed the burnings were incited by local residents angered that church managements failed to show licenses to set up local churches since 1982.
The residents, he added, had repeatedly warned the managements not to go ahead with establishing the two churches in the middle of the majority Muslim communities.
Baharuddin said there been an agreement in 1992 between the locals and the church administrators, stating that the development of the churches would not be continued.
But the agreement was violated and the churches kept continuing activities and worship, he said.
“Last Friday the managements actually were asked to dismantle the buildings used as places of worship but this was not done, so the mob spontaneously burned the two churches,” Baharuddin said.
The case has been discussed by the Padang Lawas administration, local agencies and religious leaders.
“They agreed that all the financial losses caused by the attacks will be covered and that neutral locations would be provided for Christians to rebuild the churches,” he said, adding that a follow-up meeting is scheduled for Monday.
Padang Lawas Regent Basyrah Lubis said his administration would facilitate the issuance of permits to rebuild the two churches.
He also called on the people to maintain peace and mutual respect among followers of different faiths. “Just don’t be afraid. We guarantee that no such incident will happen again,” he said, while calling on the fleeing victims to return home.
from:
thejakartapost.com
YER MAMI: "The moment our policing and nation building ends, they will be at each others throats, whether that makes sense, geo-political or otherwise, will always elude people like us who are conditioned to think in rational terms."
RESPONSE: The USA has been winding things down in Iraq for a full year and a half...and predictions of imminent sectarian carnage have not been born out. Every time there is an episode of terror, the "I told you so's" are openly paraded...and yet, the long-awaited civil war remains a projection, not a reality.
But should it occur - and for the record, I think it's certainly plausible, the end-result will in all probability be inimical, not beneficial, to Western security.
Corni,
"the end-result will in all probability be not beneficial to Western security"-
I couldn't agree more. That's why nation-building, wasting men, money and materiel on mohammedan nations is worse than futile.
The mission was accomplished when our soldiers dragged Saddam out of his hole. We cannot make it our business to establish sharia states or statelets, that includes Afghanistan, Kosovo, Bosnia, Herzegovina and other misguided hearts and minds adventures.
Can we agree on that at least?
Cornelius wrote:
I continue to marvel at those who wish the current government of Iraq - friendly towards America and not in pursuit of WMDs - be undermined by ethnic and/or sectarian strife.
........................
I, for one, do not enjoy seeing this repulsive violence in any way. But remember—pointing out a fact is not the same as cheering it. This is something Robert Spencer and Jihad Watch is accused of all the time—somehow relishing violence because they report on it.
I know you didn't mean it in this way. I hate seeing reports like the one above, but this is what is happening. I hope these sectarian attacks don't continue, and I hope they don't lead to the fall of the current government in Iraq after we pull out completely, which—corrupt and weak as it is, and with Shari'ah law at its base—is still not anywhere near as ugly as Saddam Hussein's vicious regime was.
But many who (not yourself) are still nattering on about "how the Surge worked" do not seem ready to look at the facts of Shi'ite supremacy, and the related baleful influence of Iran, of the precarious situation of the Kurds, or Sunni terrorism, or the terrible increased pressure on Christians to convert, flee the country, or be killed.
Here's a list, from the not-always-reliable Wikipedia, of just the major "insurgent attacks" of the last seven years:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War_insurgent_attacks
It's a pretty ugly litany. I hope things change there, I really do. But given the sad, bloody history of Islam when not constrained by some equally bloody dictator, I don't have high hopes.
GRAVEN: "I, for one, do not enjoy seeing this repulsive violence in any way. But remember—pointing out a fact is not the same as cheering it. This is something Robert Spencer and Jihad Watch is accused of all the time—somehow relishing violence because they report on it."
RESPONSE: Hugh Fitzgerald has repeatedly insisted on these pages that ethnic/sectarian violence in Iraq would be beneficial for the West and should be welcomed. Such logic would easily apply to Iran, a regime whose very essence is antithetical to our interests. It doesn't apply to Iraq, at least not in my opinion.
The attack on a main road in Al Adel District, northwestern Baghdad Baghdad also wounded five Iranian pilgrims, according to a report. Pilgrims were traveling from holy city of Najaf to holy city of Kazemayn.
This is a little off-topic, but is every dung-heap in Iraq a Holy City? They can't be that Holy if people get murdered traveling between them.