An odd report -- she doesn't have to go home, but admitted she was "unruly." Meredith "Hijab" Heagney, a willing journalistic tool of the Islamic supremacist agenda, casts aspersions on Rifqa's claim that her father had threatened to kill her -- despite the manifest flaws in the official investigations of the matter. In any case, if he didn't, why doesn't she have to go home?
Curiouser and curiouser.
"Runaway teen convert and parents end dispute," by Meredith "Hijab" Heagney for the Columbus Dispatch, January 19 (thanks to Pamela):
The long legal dispute over runaway teen convert Fathima Rifqa Bary apparently ended in Franklin County Juvenile Court late this afternoon when the girl and her parents agreed that she'll stay in the custody of Children Services and the family will try to resolve their issues with counseling.That leaves two options for Rifqa, who is in foster care: She could eventually reconcile with her parents and go home or stay in foster care until her 18th birthday on Aug. 10.
Rifqa admitted she was unruly when she fled her parents' home last July to live with a Christian pastor and his family in Florida. She said at the time that her father, Mohamed, had threatened to kill her for abandoning the family's Muslim faith, although authorities say they never found credible evidence that that was true.
Mohamed and Aysha Bary and their daughter all agreed today not to continue with the Juvenile Court dependency case. The next hearing, besides a minor hearing regarding a gag order on Monday, is set for her birthday.
Today's decision ends months of legal action in Florida and Ohio.
In a statement read by Rifqa's attorneys, both she and her parents said they loved each other and believe counseling is the best route.
Stay strong, girl. 10 August will be here in a flash.
Does any one know if the draconian restrictions placed on her contact with others have been lifted?
Will she get her Christmas cards?
Most likely explanation IMHO:
Parents and imam are unsatisfied with our legal system's handling of Rifqa's case; their next step is to do what they can to avert further attention from outside parties, which will be followed by an attempt to track her down.
Or maybe the parents actually have gotten tired of this ordeal.
From the article,
Who knows what Rifqa means by this or if she's feeling pressure to reconcile with her parents.
I do know a while back I posted that I found her behavior to be odd (based on youtube vids and articles I had read).
I also stated that I didn't believe her claim of being threatened with death by her father mainly because her parents allowed her to be a cheerleader.
A muslim cheerleader! Imagine that.
I implied there are plenty of Christian cults out there actively recruiting "Rifqaesque" types.
My "doubting post" was met with scorn (as this one will be, no doubt) by some Jihad Watchers who said I had a problem with Christianity.
Despite this, I do hope Rifqa lives a long and prosperous life.
This result looks like there's been a deal done behind the scenes; it looks like some sort of 'face saving' exercise both for the Muslims - given that there has been, unofficially if not in mainstream media, in America and beyond, a LOT of publicity about the Islamic Apostasy Law - and for the American authorities involved, who just do not want to have to publicly admit, in so many words, that someone who publicly leaves Islam is in as much danger as someone who has tried to leave the Mafia.
Memo to the courts and the foster parents - best not to trust a word the Muslim parents say, or that any Muslim 'community spokesperson', lawyer or 'counsellor', let alone imam, says. *Do not* let Rifqa be alone with them or with any other Muslim/s. Her parents might even pretend to have converted to Christianity, if they thought this would lure her back home where she can be killed; irrespective of every detail of the case, this has been *hugely* embarrassing for them and for Islam, and Muslim girls have been 'honor murdered' for far, far less than what Rifqa has done.
The main thing is, Rifqa seems to be able to stay in foster care. Stay there, girl. Stay safe. And once you turn 18, well, you're not a minor and can tell everyone to go jump.
I hope the State of Ohio DOESN'T hire *Muslim* counsellors.
Non-Muslim counsellors are a must.
And I hope the foster care is in a Secure Undisclosed Location.
Let's not allow this case to drop off the radar.
Keep praying. Keep telling people about the fact that sharia prescribes that those who leave Islam or try to leave it, should be killed. Send people to the Barnabas Fund website, where there is information, and to jihadwatch, to find out about the 'apostasy law' - or tell them to read Samuel Zwemer's classic study, The Law of Apostasy in Islam, available on line, or to get Canon Patrick Sookhdeo's new book, 'Freedom to Believe: Challenging the Islamic Apostasy Law" (Sookhdeo is himself an apostate from Islam).
I would not trust them (parents) as far as I can spit.
I get the feeling that the publicity was too much for the religion of pees. Note this for future actions were they are involved.
Seems like a good decision - what form though will the counselling take? And what happens about the foster home, which is now known to Omar Tarazi and maybe CAIR? Even if until her 18th Rifqa stays secure, August 10 could be just the start of life as an adult with a target-sign on her head.
Strangely Atlas Shrugs is down just when you most want to read it - the combined effects of Rifqa and the Massachussetts election?
When counseling is put forward as the best route to resolve difficulties, it's pretty much a given that much trouble still lies ahead. One of the many plagues of the modern age is the counseling profession, which is riddled with ignorance, multiculturalism, political correctness, shallowness and parasitism.
I mean, after all, who becomes a "counselor?" Aren't such folk, for the most part, those who have failed at most everything else in life, or who didn't have a clue what they really wanted to do in the first place, and thus fell back on this excuse for a career? Not looking good. As undaunted wrote above, August 10th, Rifqa Barry's 18th birthday and thus the beginning of legal status for her as an adult, is just around the corner. Hopefully, this date will prove victorious over any counseling that will ensue in the meantime. If anyone thinks I'm too harsh on the counseling profession, frankly I don't give a damn.
This is somewhat anticlimactic and suspicious. There are numerous "What If's" for those of us who followed this and speculated about it. Ultimately the faith and maturity of this young lady will determine an outcome that we must accept. let's pray that the right thing has happened.
Very suspicious. Quite possibly, now that her foster residence is known to the larger Muslim community, Rifqa's parents are content to let that community "resolve" the problem...if you all get my drift.
Rifqa needs a bathroom like the Swedish cartoonist.
Hopefully when August 10 comes, Rifqa decides she needs to be far away from her parents. Just because they have come to an agreement now, doesn't mean the parents or at least the father doesn't still have evil thoughts in his hateful Muslim brain. I wouldn't trust him as far as I can spit which isn't that far. Good Luck to Rifqa. May God be with you.
Councilors just love "drug therapy". Better living through Chemistry!
Dumbledore's--Don't count on Rifqa Bary getting sympathetic counseling. Most people in the counsseling "industry" are pretty clueless about Islamic apostasy law and will probably say that Rifqa is "being unhelpful" if she brings up threats against her life. And there will probably be well-meaning suggestions that Rifqa go to the mosque with her parents on Fridays and do what she likes on Sundays. If Miss Bary gets a little too intransigent (out of fears for her own safety), she runs the risk of being "hospitalized".
"I also stated that I didn't believe her claim of being threatened with death by her father mainly because her parents allowed her to be a cheerleader."
Well, poor Amina and Sarah Said in Texas weren't cheerleaders, but...
they dressed in modern, "immodest" Western clothing;
judging by their photos, they wore makeup;
they attended a co-ed, public high school where they had close, daily contact with male students and faculty;
they had non-Muslim friends (including males).
All of that was hardly in line with traditional Muslim strictures on young women. It was only when their father felt they had somehow crossed a line and become *too* un-Islamic that he murdered them.
Also, the high school student in Canada whose father murdered her also dressed in modern clothes, wore cosmetics, had male and non-Muslim friends, attended a public school, etc. Still, at some point, she crossed a line at which her un-Islamic behavior became intolerable.
So it is hardly untenable that perhaps Rifqa's father and mother are "moderate" enough that they did not find cheerleading a threat to Islam. But Christianity? That would be the intolerable line that Rifqa crossed.
This is the problem with allowing Islam in the West in the first place. All of the "normal" aspects of our society become broken when trying to deal with the realities of Islam. Sure, in the normal West we can see children running away from home and making up stories about their parents. But with Islam there is the cold reality that they will kill apostates. So what is the West to do then, just give as is normal the presumption to the parents? Or are we to just let any child who leaves Islam leave their family? Islam itself presents far too many situations just like this that make it 100% impossible to integrate it into the West. Only ex-Muslims should be allowed to immigrate to the West.
Rifqa's parents can not be trusted as the followers of Islam have been proven to be liars
and great perpetrators of deception.
May God in His infinite power and might protect this young Christian girl from the Islamic barbarians that would do her harm.
In Jesus name.Amen
Cair not paying legal fees anymore? or do they need to send the funds to hamas to buy more rockets. I'm sorry people I almost started to rant..Rifqa you go girl, and tell your story to all and I hope more girls will follow suit. Your an inspiration to all girls trapped in Islam that want out..
Previous post had typos.
Rifqa's parents can not be trusted as the followers of Islam have been proven to be
liars and great perpetrators of deception.
May God in His infinite power and might protect this young Christian girl from the Islamic barbarians that would do her harm.
In Jesus name.Amen
Congratulations Rifqa and the prayers of the saints have been answered, but if I were you I would not let my guards down. Remember what happened to Amina and Sarah when they came back to their loving father after escaping, were they welcomed to the loving Muslim family? Are they still alive? And these sweet girls did not even reject Islam, they were just not enough Muslims in their father's eyes, they were typical teenagers who wanted to enjoy life and he sent them to.....
Our prayers will continue for you sweet Rifqa, and may He protect you and keep you steadfast in your faith.
Here's one for you, Wellington, regarding the practice of "therapy" in these days.
http://www.ruthblog.org/2010/01/14/what-lisa-miller-has-to-do-with-ssm-therapeutic-malpractice/
Sick, indeed.
YAY! For all the F'd up shiznit happening right now in this world....
WE HAVE HAPPY NEWS!
F all the people at CAIR, they can go eat a ****! Blessed be good Rifqa, hopefully she'll have the good sense to avoid her Islamic borg-infested family and stick with a religion which doesn't slice and dice little girls for abandoning it.
Hell, hear that Rifqa? We Christians ain't gonna kill ya even IF you insult Christianity and abandon it! You're in a peaceful faith now! I applaud your courage and bravery in abandoning the heap of garbage known as Islam which was forced upon you, and which brainwashed your family into becoming misogynistic a-hole bloodthirsty barbarians.
But free of Islam you can finally blossom and become a good girl free of the evils and hatreds of the barbarian cult!
Happy New Year's girl! May you live a long and happy life and may you encourage many, many, MANY other Muslim girls to have the good courage and sense to follow in your noble footsteps!
The senior Barys probably figured that if they kept leaning on Rifqa the outraged locals (that's us) would start bringing serious heat to bear on the Barys' legal status -- both immigration and taxes, possibly even jihaddist connections.
They figured it was safer to distance themselves and let the noise die down to avoid any more curious notice.
They are probably also relying on the 5th column American press to reveal Rifqa's whereabouts to their "community". They undoubtedly reckon that with a little luck, some like minded thug will take care of business for them.
=======
Personally I think that now is the time to really dig into papa Bary's background.
Go over his immigration status, taxes and social connections with a fine tooth comb.
Of course, it would be best to bring charges against him AFTER Rifqa's 18th birthday, so he no longer has a hostage.
Then go for it. Jail the bastard for the slightest infraction. Better yet, hand him over to some inimical foreign police force with no inhibitions about brutality.
They shut it down because they didn't want something coming out in the open - like, let's say, the true nature of ISLAM. The longer this drags on the more bad press & scrutiny CAIR & her parents get. I say it is time to go over the parents with a fine tooth comb - immigaration, tax, etc.
WHAT A PROBLEM ,ISLAM IS REALY A TRAGEDY. A HUMAN TRAGEDY.WHAT ELSE CAN WE DO TO STOP THEM TO INVADE OUR LIFE AND OUR LIBERTY?
WHAT A PROBLEM ISLAM IS REALY A TRAGEDY.A HUMAN TRAGEDY .WHAT ELSE CAN WE DO TO STOP THEM TO INVADE OUR LIFE AND OUR LIBERTY?????????
WHAT A PROBLEM ISLAM IS REALY A TRAGEDY.A HUMAN TRAGEDY .WHAT ELSE CAN WE DO TO STOP THEM TO INVADE OUR LIFE AND OUR LIBERTY?????????
Not having a background in law, I'm not sure what to make of this. After reading a news report about this latest development, it appears that "unruly" here simply means that Rifqa was unruly when she took off/escaped from home last summer. Apparently, this is some kind of deal whereby Rifqa accepts the "unruly" judgement and in exchange she will not have to go home to her parents. This doesn't sound too bad.
Aiken Brice wrote:
"I also stated that I didn't believe her claim of being threatened with death by her father mainly because her parents allowed her to be a cheerleader."
To me, this reasoning, which has been made by several people in commenting on the case, has always struck me as bizarre. This "cheerleader" issue has next to nothing to do with whether a death threat was made. The idea here seems to be that if Rifqa is shown in a cheerleading outfit, that constitutes strong evidence that Mr. Bary is an easy-going apostasy-tolerating open-minded modern moderate Muslim who wouldn't dream of threatening his apostate daughter.
In any case, it is not established that the parents were truly okay with her cheerleading. (I'm not even sure that they were aware of her cheerleading at the time). Apparently, this idea that the parents were okay with the cheerleading arose after a reporter claimed to see a photo of Rifqa in her cheerleader outfit on "display" in the Bary's home. The obvious problem is that we don't know when the picture was put there, by whom, or for what reason.
We may never know whether Rifqa was really threatened by her parents,* because we have no physical evidence of a threat (e.g., a recording), and no other eyewitnesses. It's Rifqa's word against her father's word. Unless either Rifqa or her father changes their story 180 degrees about the threat, we will probably never have a sure idea of what really was said.
*It does appear that she has been threatened by others on the internet, though.
Rifqa argues that she would not have run away from home if she did not have a very strong reason to do so. That, of course, doesn't indicate necessarily that she was threatened. But if she wasn't threatened, and the parents were truly okay with her having converted to Christianity, why would this young teenager take such a drastic move as to leave her family? Why would she still refuse to go back to her family now, after all this time?
Lorgan,
According to Jamal Jivanjee's most recent note to his listserv, NO, the restrictions on visitors have _not_ been lifted. She is still largely isolated--no visitors, no Christian friends to phone or e-mail, etc. There is real reason to fear they will continue to keep her in this type of isolation for the rest of her time in the custody of Franklin County Children's Services, which is obviously of concern, especially if during this time she is coming under pressure to agree to return to her parents.
However, she did get her Christmas cards back in December.
On the other hand again, after December 22 her lawyers agreed to let the guardian ad litem screen all future in-coming mail, so I'm having trouble confirming that she will receive _new_ notes of encouragement, etc., from here on out. I still think we should send them, though.
Keep watching the case!
This is not over. Islam never forgets, never gives up.
Once the publicity is gone, there will be more attempts, more attacks.
From Atlas Shrugs:
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2010/01/eyewtiness-account-of-the-todays-rifqa-bary-hearing.html
Here is perhaps the rub of the whole plan and concession to the Bary's and CAIR only taking an admission to the unruliness complaint against Rifqa.
"Julian next requested the unruliness complaint be held open until Rifqa’s 18th birthday. Rifqa’s attorney Angela Lloyd objected, arguing the complaint should be closed. Lloyd stated Rifqa was safe in the custody of Franklin County Children Services, and that it was in Rifqa’s best interest the complaint be closed.
Goodrich agreed. She stated the unruliness was related to the rules of Rifqa’s home; that since those rules no longer applied given Rifqa was no longer in her parents home the circumstances relating to her unruliness were now gone. Goodrich ruled to close the unruliness complaint. "
If the unruliness complaint had been left open, and had Rifqa admitted to it, (which she had), it is conceivable that there would be some wide open legal loophole to use the open unruliness complaint, to re-start the custody issue, at a time when less people are watching.
With the ruling to close it, we may have just heard the door slam shut on the nefarious plans of CAIR and the Bary's to eventually dispute and get Rifqa back in their custody.
Rifqa's parents reached an agreement, huh? Oh, I'm sure. I pray God they don't do something sinister like sending in a goon, or hiring a goon inside the child services to murder her.
I am cautiously relieved to learn that she will stay at child services until her 18 b/d...and that's cautiously. A real concern for me is the possibility mentioned above.
Prayer is the weapon of choice here. I, for one, will keep Rifqa in prayer day and night.
I hope most folks here will do likewise:)
Unruliness is a misdemeanor that could possibly come to bear on her future opportunity for legal alien residency. I hope her attorney thought of that. Teenage indiscretions are not as easy to brush off when one is applying for legal status.
Also, Rifqa never showed her cheerleading to her parents. She wore a warmup suit when going to practice, and she only took up cheerleading so she could hangout with a Christian friend. She states (I will try to find the link) that her parents never saw her in her uniform, that she had to hide it from them. They never, ever came to one of her basketball games (at which she was a cheerleader).
Rifqa was a Christian for years before she met the Lorenzes online. What other opportunity would she have for a worship community but an online one? Aiken, you aren't thinking clearly, and are lumping mainstream Christian prosyletization and worship communities together with cults. A cult is what she left.
What on earth "cult" could it be? They have no resources as a church, Rifqa has no money or resources or labor to give them, they have no charismatic leader. Don't drink the koolaid, just because you distrust evangelicals. That's not what happened here.
She thinks she escaped. It is highly likely she has, so far. Why can't you believe her testimony and why would you believe Muslims over her?
It's damned hard to tell, given the level of legalistic obfuscation here, but I believe this is a fairly major victory for Rifqa.
It is appalling that she had to agree to the charge of being "unruly"—she was fleeing abuse and death threats!—but this looks like a tactic, one she could live with.
From Pamela Geller's site, Atlas Shrugs:
A deal was cut today in the trial of Rifqa Bary. In exchange for pleading guilty to the charge of being "unruly", Rifqa will not have to return home.
.......................
The unruly charge, after being admitted to, was *not* held over by the judge to her 18th birthday, so it looks pretty pro forma.
Foster care in Ohio, with its draconian and unwarranted strictures on Rifqa, is hardly ideal—but at least she will not be returned to her lethal parents.
I agree that she is still in danger, not just from her parents, but from her homicidal "community". But I think the danger is lessened—probably less than at any time since her parents found out about her apostasy.
When she turns eighteen, she will be free to leave Ohio for somewhere safer—perhaps Florida, perhaps somewhere else. It might be necessary for her to change her name, as well, so that members of "The Religion of Peace" will be less likely to recognize her.
Still, this is the best news we have received so far. While this is not the ringing victory for Rifqa that we had hoped for, it looks as though the court acknowledged—if tacitly—that Rifqa would not be safe in the "bosom" of her family.
Note to Aiken Bryce:
Reports are that Rifqa's parents *did not know that she was a cheerleader*, and would not have approved had they known. The idea that Rifqa's being a cheerleader indicated that her parents were "moderate" seems to be something pushed by her family's supporters much after the fact.
I'm both relieved and scared. I'm relieved because some of the tension has been taken away with the legal comprimise and I'm still scared of what may happen to her if we start forgetting her. I sent a card to her three days ago and a contribution to her legal fund yesterday. Will post you if I hear anything back.
RE notes of encouragement, etc.
All practising Christians here present should put Rifqa's name on their Lenten prayer list; if you fast during Lent, dedicate your fast on behalf of her and all other apostates (whatever religion, or non-religion, they have chosen). Use Rifqa's case to raise awareness about the sharia rule that apostates are supposed to be killed.
Rifqa's story should be particularly attention-grabbing for teenage girls...
Christians - and non-Christian infidels, too - can go to the Barnabas Fund website and print off the Barnabas Fund petition calling for the abolition of the Islamic apostasy law, which petition closes at Easter (after which, the signed petition forms will be presented to governing bodies across the Western world, in order to make our assorted politicians, our members of parliament, senators, congresscritters, aware of the dangers that face not only apostates from Islam within the Islamic world, but *also* the danger faced by people like Rifqa, *within the free non-Muslim world*). Tout the petition around your church, family and friends. This is about human rights and freedom of conscience and freedom of religion.
Make sure you tell people that this is not just about your sympathy, as a Christian, for a gorgeous little ex-Muslim girl who's become a fervent Christian; that were this case, instead, about an ugly, spotty, gangling ex-Muslim BOY of 17 who had decided to become a Buddhist, or an Atheist, or a Jew, and had fled his family in fear for his life, the danger of that person's being executed by family members or by any other self-appointed Muslim sharia-enforcer, would be just as great, and that you would equally be calling for prayers and political lobbying to defend the young man's right to freedom of conscience...and to life itself.
Jewish members of this forum may like to consider sending Rifqa a Purim card and voucher for a Purim basket at the appropriate time, with an explanatory note. As a Christian she will know - or should be told, if she doesn't already know - the story of Esther and the deliverance of the Jews of Persia from a threatened shoah, and it should be an encouragement for her.
Christians can send Rifqa Easter cards - and maybe a voucher from a chocolatier, to allow her to purchase Easter treats for herself - at the appropriate moment.
dumbledoresarmy says,
Right. I'll get to that after my check to Christian Haitians clears.
Thanks for the reminder.
Kinana of Khaybar asks,
I'll not comment on your previous comments because no one really knows the truth in this case.
But, I'll comment on your quote that I've just quoted.
Are you serious? I don't trust the words of a teenager just because he/she has something bad to say about their parents.
Also, do you deny the power of cults?
Christianity is replete with such brain-washings.
What I'd really like to ask is how would ANY parent feel if their child went missing, turned up in some flaky "Christian" cult and then starting accusing said parents of things that cannot possibly be substantiated?
What kind of organization is this Christian sect?
Why are local governments involved in all of this?
Why are the parents (muslim of course, but certainly not guilty of anything (yet)) denied access to their own freaking daughter?
These folks could be completely innocent of everything their daughter accuses of them.
I really haven't read many comments considering that vital detail.
GIVEN what we know about 'honor' killings or 'pride murder' among Muslims, let alone the apostasy law, I think the precautionary principle should apply.
If Rifqa had run away from her Muslim parents for *any* reason whatever, whether invented or real, even *without* having publicly proclaimed a change of religion, there is a probability - a quite high probability - that they or someone else in the extended family would kill her to punish her for her actual or perceived insubordination.
Despite your fevered imaginings, mainstream Jewish and Christian families do not do that. But a significant proportion of Muslim families - even those seemingly 'moderate' and 'westernised' - *do*.
The child does not have to have changed her religion, or even to have run away from home, or indeed, done ANYTHING at all. There was one case of a twelve year old girl in Turkey who was sent a love note by a class mate, and...shot herself (so the story goes; it is far more likely that she was shot; or that she was *encouraged* to 'commit suicide' to remove the 'pollution' of having tempted a boy to write her a note; many 'suicides' in Turkey and in Germany are now suspected of having been 'forced suicides', where 'dishonored' girls are psychologically pressured by the family into taking poison, hanging themselves, etc).
Women's shelters in Europe are learning from bitter experience that when a Muslim girl runs to you and says she is in danger from her family, it is best to believe her; and that beggings and pleadings and protestations of love from smiling, tearful Muslim parents, aunties, sisters, etc., may in fact be...totally fake; girls who have swallowed these protestations, and gone home into the bosom of the family, have all too often wound up dead...nastily dead.
GIVEN what we know about 'honor' killings or 'pride murder' among Muslims, let alone the apostasy law, I think the precautionary principle should apply.
If Rifqa had run away from her Muslim parents for *any* reason whatever, whether invented or real, even *without* having publicly proclaimed a change of religion, there is a probability - a quite high probability - that they or someone else in the extended family would kill her to punish her for her actual or perceived insubordination.
Despite your fevered imaginings, mainstream Jewish and Christian families do not do that. But a significant proportion of Muslim families - even those seemingly 'moderate' and 'westernised' - *do*.
The child does not have to have changed her religion, or even to have run away from home, or indeed, done ANYTHING at all. There was one case of a twelve year old girl in Turkey who was sent a love note by a class mate, and...shot herself (so the story goes; it is far more likely that she was shot; or that she was *encouraged* to 'commit suicide' to remove the 'pollution' of having tempted a boy to write her a note; many 'suicides' in Turkey and in Germany are now suspected of having been 'forced suicides', where 'dishonored' girls are psychologically pressured by the family into taking poison, hanging themselves, etc).
Women's shelters in Europe are learning from bitter experience that when a Muslim girl runs to you and says she is in danger from her family, it is best to believe her; and that beggings and pleadings and protestations of love from smiling, tearful Muslim parents, aunties, sisters, etc., may in fact be...totally fake; girls who have swallowed these protestations, and gone home into the bosom of the family, have all too often wound up dead...nastily dead.
Well stated, DDA.
As to the cheerleading issue, I remember seeing the picture of Rifqa in her cheerleading uniform leaned up against what appeared to be the family's dvd player and it was unframed. If I recall correctly this was in one of the articles that was waxing on glowingly about what a great family the Barys are. I remember thinking at the time, oh yeah, Rifqa's mom was AGAIN going through her things, found the picture and the weanies over at CAIR told the parents to prop it up for a convenient photo op.
Think about it, if Mohamad Bary went apoplectic when he found out that Rifqa "had this Jesus" in her heart, if he hit her in the face when she slumped down in the front seat of the car because she was embarrassed to be wearing the hijab on the way to the mosque, if he got into the country by claiming Rifqa's eye needed medical attention but then didn't bother to have a doctor look at it because, after all, she's only a female, then there is no way in blue blazes that her parents were going to let her be a cheerleader. CAIR knew that putting that picture up on the family dvd would be the perfect propaganda to counter the image of Islam being so backward and so cruel to it's girls. The whole thing is a put on, like everything else CAIR does. And Aiken Bryce, you fell for it.
Aiken,
Surely you must admit that the "cheerleader" line of argument is hopelessly weak.
You quote me:
"But if she wasn't threatened, and the parents were truly okay with her having converted to Christianity, why would this young teenager take such a drastic move as to leave her family? Why would she still refuse to go back to her family now, after all this time?"
You then add:
"I'll not comment on your previous comments because no one really knows the truth in this case."
As I noted in the post to which you replied, only Rifqa and her father know what really happened. With no physical evidence or other witnesses, we may never know what happened.
You ask:
"Are you serious? I don't trust the words of a teenager just because he/she has something bad to say about their parents."
1. Yes, I'm serious, but my last question about what would prompt Rifqa to run away from her family is only one consideration out of the whole set of information I've read about in this case. Again, I don't know what's true; I can only guess at what seems plausible or probable, given the facts and claims on both sides.
Also note, my citing the fact that she left is citing an action, not just words, as evidence. People can say many things, but a teenager running away from her family is a major, out-of-the ordinary action. And the action in question is only one piece of evidence to consider out of a whole set of evidence.
I would not assume that the teenager is more likely to lie than the father. The assumption that Rifqa should not be believed because she is a teenager is unfounded. I do not "trust" Rifqa; I just find her side of the story somewhat more plausible than the family, who were being managed, handled, prepped, etc., by CAIR, a highly dubious group that is well-known to bend the truth in defence of Islam's public image in the U.S.
"Also, do you deny the power of cults?"
No; and I don’t rule out other possibilities. But a cult explanation does not account for why Rifqa ran away when she did.
"Christianity is replete with such brain-washings."
Perhaps, but if the parents are okay with her being a Christian, even a zealous one, then why would she need or want to run away?
"These folks could be completely innocent of everything their daughter accuses of them."
Perhaps, but it looks like the judges and the Child Protection agency in question are not taking any chances. These agencies take a child's accusations very seriously, perhaps too seriously, but I think they believe they have to err on the side of caution. Would you send Rifqa back to the parents?
Kinana of Khaybar,
Yes, the cheerleader example IS weak, just as the whole case IS weak.
I'm not going to pretend that honor killings amongst muslims don't exist.
All I'm saying is I have a hard time believing that this is going to happen to Rifqa.
I've met quite a few religious charlatans who've been very persuasive in hoodwinking others out of money or what have you, but what struck me most is the sway they have over their devotees minds.
Because of my experiences, I question the sway this Christian group has had and still has over the mind of this young girl.
Because of her youth she is obviously impressionable, as we all were and are. Could this group have suggested something to her that she now firmly believes to be rooted in HER reality?
That is what I'm getting at.
I know how I'd feel if some cult somehow snagged my daughter, turned her against me and also had the support of local governments protecting her from me, one who has done absolutely nothing wrong.
I'm definitely not saying this is the case, but that is my gut feeling. Of course, I'd be presumptuous in saying that I knew that for sure. The only people who know the truth are Rifqa and her family.
You ask if I would send Rifqa back to her parents.
I can't answer that.
YOU write:
"Because of her youth she is obviously impressionable, as we all were and are.
Could this group have suggested something to her that she now firmly believes to be rooted in HER reality?"
So you imply that the Lorenzes or other Christians LIED to Rifqa? That she was never in any danger, and wouldn't have felt herself to be in any danger, until and unless those wicked, wicked Christians whipped up her fears?
To put it bluntly: the law of apostasy in Islam has been in existence, and put into practice, for 1400 years. It is NOT something made up on the fly by eevil Christian brainwashing cultists. (BTW, I recall reading that the Lorenzes indeed claimed that they didn't know such a thing existed until RIFQA raised the subject by explaining to them that she could be killed, even by her parents, for having become a Christian; they found this almost impossible to believe until they did some research and found out that this really is what Islamic law prescribes).
It is a cold hard FACT, demonstrable both from Islamic texts and from the legal documents and from a mountain of historical cases, past and present, and from the bitter experience of many others who have apostasised. Our own 'Bosch Fawstin' here at this site, apostasised as a teenage BOY (becoming an atheist) and as a result had to flee from his family and go live in hiding.
Similarly: it is a FACT that many Mohammedan families, resident both within the West and in Muslim lands, when faced with real or imaginary 'insubordination' or whatever from their daughters, react by ritually murdering those daughters.
Given those FACTS, which seem to me to mean that there is an unacceptably high probability that for having 1. 'shamed' the family by running away and 2. having publicly declared herself an apostate to Christianity Rifqa is in danger of being killed either by her family or by someone else in the Mohammedan community, I repeat that the precautionary principle applies: Rifqa should not be sent back to her family.
BTW, If you are so against 'Christian' brainwashing, I find it strange you don't seem to have a problem with the MUSLIM brainwashing to which, one must presume, Rifqa was subjected from birth; and to which she would most assuredly be subjected, full blast, if handed back to her family and mosque.
Would you hold the same view - that she is a silly girl who has been duped by those who sheltered her, and/ or is a lying little hussy who hates her poor parents and should be sent right back to them - if she had declared herself an atheist, and run for shelter to a pair of Freethinkers?
dumbledoresarmy,
You seem to think I'm some kind of atheist or even worse, some kind of anti Christian.
For the record, I was born/raised in the Catholic religion and still attend mass regularly.
Also for the record, I have a real problem with islam (muhammadanism) and have commented on it critically at Jihad Watch since 2004, I believe.
Not that I need to provide you with any "credentials" that is.
Anways, you ask,
The Lorenzes know (like you and I) the penalties for apostasy in islam and it is a high probability, given the zeal of this group, that this penalty was touched upon so many times by them to Rifqa that she actually started to believe it to be true of her father.
But, you are not dense and knew exactly what I was getting at with my comments above.
Alas, I'm finished commenting on this particular thread.
Bryce
our disagreement boils down to this.
You don't seem to think Rifqa is in any real danger; that although many Muslims *would* - and do - kill daughters for real or perceived insubordination, or kill apostate children for having apostasised, these *particular* Muslims, namely Rifqa's illegal-immigrant parents, are such lovely people they couldn't possibly be suspected of being liable to do anything bad to her.
*I* on the other hand think she *is* in danger; if not necessarily from her parents then quite probably from other Muslims, and if not for her apostasy then certainly for having shamed the family and, by extension, the wider Ummah or Muslim Mob. At least, I certainly think, given everything I have learned in the past four years and more about 1. 'honor' murders and 2. the standard Muslim response to the discovery of apostasy in a fellow-Muslim, that the *probability* of harm is high enough that the precautionary principle should apply.
Suppose she had come to *you*. Would *you* have rung up her parents at once, and told them to come collect her, and confined her until they could do so, and then handed her over *no matter what she said to you and no matter how frightened she appeared to be*?
What would stop you from handing her over? What does the probability that she might, as a result of that handover, wind up dead - throat slit, bearing signs of rape and torture, dumped by the side of a road somewhere - have to be?...One in ten? one in 100? one in 1000?
What the parents look like, what they say or are said to have said, how nice they seem, is irrelevant. It's about probabilities. You *just don't know* what they are going to do.
And you *do* know* that the mosque they regularly attended, has some pretty unsavoury connections, and that CAIR (do you trust *them*?) has been heavily involved in the case.
Furthermore, Ibn Warraq has described the terrifying rage that can erupt out of the nicest, seemingly-slackest and most 'moderate' Muslim upon being confronted with the fact that someone close to them, a friend or family member, has apostasised.
How do you know that Rifqa's parents are 100 % immune to that?