French Catholic bishop on burqa ban: "If we want Christian minorities in Muslim majority countries to enjoy all their rights, we should in our country respect the rights of all believers to practice their faith"

So he's dumb. He's ignorant, and he doesn't intend to find out more, and what he does know, he misunderstands. There are dumb bishops, and smart bishops. This one is dumb.

Can't find the words right now.

There is only one word - dhimmi

Naive, or willfully ignorant? Which ever it is, he should get out more.

"If we want Christian minorities in Muslim majority countries to enjoy all their rights, we should in our country respect the rights of all believers to practice their faith."

Two points.
First, Christian minorities in Moslem countries generally have almost no rights, and the few that they do have are regularly infringed upon by Moslem mobs, mobs which the government usually does precious little to restrain.
Second, according to the Moslems, their rights include: honor-killing, the killing of apostates, FGM, wife-beating, ignoring sanitation rules in hospitals, polygamy, and the marriage of 9-year-old girls. (Just a short list, by no means exhaustive).
And if the Most Reverend Bishop Santier approves of the Moslems enjoying all of these "rights", then I'm sure he'll also endorse the rights of any remaining worshippers of gods demanding human sacrifice. There are undoubtably a few devotees of such gods left.
The French used to brag about their "civilizing mission" to their colonies. Now they seem happy to be the victims of the "barbarizing mission" of the Moslems.

No infidel rights in Muslim countries?

No Muslim rights in infidel countries?

Worth the effort and investment.

Simple.

Hugh sez:

He's dumb. He's ignorant, and he doesn't intend to find out more, and what he does know, he misunderstands. There are dumb bishops, and smart bishops. This one is dumb.

What's there to add? As usual, Hugh's knife cuts through the mush.

In other news:

Islamic cleric hits Morocco with the inevitable wine fartwa

http://sheikyermami.com/2010/02/02/islamic-cleric-hits-morocco-with-the-inevitable-wine-fartwa/

You knew that was coming.....

No, he's not "dumb", nor is he "naive" or "willfully ignorant".

He is simply an upright, oxygen-breathing, bipedal carbon-based life form with opposable thumbs in the West, swimming with the overwhelming flow, going with the mainstream grain, of his surrounding society (and make no mistake: many of those who oppose the burka do not oppose Muslims in general and so are part of that flow and grain that enables those like Bishop Santiers). To marginalize him, as I notice posters above do, is to truncate the massive dimensions of the sociocultural phenomenon that produces Bishop Santiers -- many of whom are not "dumb" nor necessarily naive at all -- and is strangely reductionist of the problem all around us, standing on its head our situation, as though we were not still a tiny beleaguered minority in the West, and somehow now the Bishop Santiers were the oddballs.

"If we want Christian minorities in Muslim majority countries to enjoy all their rights, we should in our country respect the rights of all believers to practice their faith."

I am not surprised at Bishop Santier's statement.

The Catholic Church has a posture of appeasement and tolerance towards Islam.

Pope Benedict XVI stated on September 17th, 2006 that he “sincerely regrets” having offended Muslims with his reference to an obscure medieval text that characterizes some of the teachings of Islam’s founder as “evil and inhuman.”

On November 30th 2006 Pope Benedict XVI visited the Blue Mosque in Istanbul, Turkey and did the following:

Before entering he removed his shoes.

He "humbly" received “instruction” from Mustafa Cagriche on the basics of Muslim prayer.

The Pope then "meekly" followed the Muslim’s command to turn toward “the Kiblah” – the direction of MECCA. Then he prayed.

He did not make the Sign of the Cross or give any external sign that he was making a Catholic prayer. On the contrary, he imitated the mufti, crossing his hands on his stomach in a classical Muslim prayer attitude known as “the posture of tranquility.” His eyes closed, they prayed together for several minutes.

Finally Pope Benedict implied that Muslims can be saved when they are "good" Muslims.

The above is an abomination to God and to the true Christian believer!

Would Christ go into the Devils house and pray with him?
No never!

The Pope evidently needs to read his Bible! BTW the "office" of the Pope was created by man, not by God.

The Lord Jesus Christ said :
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
John 14:6 

Bishop Santier is following the polices of the corrupt Church that he serves.

I cannot see much difference between Roman Catholicism and Islam, both have a history of intolerance to those who disagree with their beliefs.

The one difference that i can think of is the Roman church is subjugated to the state at the moment, but if this changes then there will be no difference. The world will plunge back into another "dark age"

Agreed, CS. "David" appears to be merely parroting one of the talking points from the Left's playbook, the one that trashes Christianity. No depth to it, no thought behind it, not worthy of a direct response.

"David" appears to be merely parroting one of the talking points from the Left's playbook, the one that trashes Christianity. No depth to it, no thought behind it, not worthy of a direct response.
Sorry, if your offended but I am a protestant, you want proof of catholic intolerance. Look at Northern Ireland, and not just at its recent history. You call Roman Catholisism "Christian", I beg to differ, it is a pagan religion just like Islam.
And by the way, my family fled from Ireland to get away from the oppression of the papists in that country, so be careful when you say its only parroting, Eastview
Before the roman church entered, Ireland was a protestant country, King Henry and his horde soon change that!

Bishop Santier, another of the stupid idiots!

The catholic church started to go astray with Vatican II.The devil got hold of it.And yes, there are different sort of bishops.Here in the Basque region our "basque" bishops not only understood the terrorists of ETA, but they went as far as refusing to celebrate funerals for the policemen killed by this group.And it is a widespread opinion here that ETA was born in the seminaries.But this is only human,it has nothing to do with the truth that lies in the heart of the catholic church.Human nature is what it is, and of course the devil fisrt and last enemy is this church.
As for protstants, what the heck is that, do you think the revealed truth is something you can sell in multiple parts like religion was a big commercial store building?

Yes, the basque bishops refused to celebrate funerals for the victims of ETA,so as not offend the "other victims".But of course they approved to celebrate for the dead terrorists.

The only good and real catholic church can only be found nowdays in the secluded life within the monasteries.

This was the same kind of arguments we heard recently in India.This is undiluted absolute Dhimmitude.

Islam will always be, and always has been, the worst of all the major belief systems.
What's almost as bad, is this blind ignorance of Islam, (Like David's). The world needs to know all about Islam, the more people that discover it's gruesome details, the safer the world will be.

Paz!

David and Christian Soldier make some good points. The fact is that the Vatican will make a deal with Islam and they will persecute true Christians. The RC "church" officially recognizes Islam as a true way of salvation. It is in one of their official documents. A global one world multi faith system with the pope at its head, coming our way, folks, along with global government. But Jesus rules still. He will overcome all wicked plans in the end.

The Catholics or should I say the Catholic church has always appeased/supported the nasties of the World.

They covered Hitler, dare not speak out against him and also helped SS members escape Germany after the War.

Why should it be any different in regards to bending over for the Muslims?, they're only supporting the next Reich.

Catholicism make people go away from the Church, with all those inquisitions, butchering everyone that considered an oppoent as Cathars, Protestants, Orthodoxs' (by doing difficult, indeed, to believe atrocities in then Constantinople - and weakening so much the Byzantines as to open the door to Turks) etc... It is not in chance all this lurking hate existing in many Spanish movies against Church (Spain was the seat, somehow, of Inquisition). Nowadays, pushed to a corner and diminishing rapidly (is there, really, Christianity anymore in Europe;) in influence wants to look as progressive, to be perceived as not reactionary to leftists... Continues, shortly said, its so mistaken way...

I have mentioned it many times before: facing Islam we have to offer an unshakable alternative of our own. A meaningful life proposition. And... now, we have... a big 'nothing'. What you will propose in place of God? Cars, video games and porn? It is ridicoulous to believe in such a thing.

We have to reclaim our lost identity first... reconsidered, renewed and healad, having learned from lessons of the past. There is no other way.

CS the last time I tried to tell a Catholic he was a Christian he nearly popped my eyeballs out and jumped up and down on them.

So many Catholics have argued the point............ I'm not a Christian!

David having grown up in a RC environment I have a clear understanding of the Catholic way and I tend to agree with you. On so many levels I myself would liken Catholocism with Islam.

If many here now think i'm a Left leaning twit so be it, (i'm not actually), I don't particularly care.

I bet most of you who despise the RC church will die as one.

Anglo "As for protstants, what the heck is that" = protest-ant= one who protests against the Roman church.

CS "The truth of the Christian faith is contained solely in the Bible, the word of God." I agree 100%

CS "I truly hope that you will do some research into the great differences between Islam and Catholisism ." I know enough of history that shows when these religions have control of both civil and religious power they suppress the people! Where is the difference?

I have found this site interesting and very informative keep up the good work!

It is only by being aware and standing up for what is right can oppression be held in check

and to finish CS "The only true antidote to this dark evil is the pure gospel of Jesus Christ." Yes Jesus is the only answer

CS from your own post above in regards to Pope Benedict? is he not mimicking Islam there?, going into a Mosque, praying. That was the most disgraceful showing ever…………………………………………..

RCC (Roman Catholic Church)/Pope does not speak out against Islam, why not?.

RCC helped the Nazis, well we certainly know that the Muslims love the Nazis.

Priests and little children, we know all to well how the Muslims love children don’t we.

Angelo my view on the RCC has nothing to do with hatred after studying the NIV i've come to see the blatant pomp, pageantry and Idolatry of the Catholic Church contrary to the Bible.

Am I a believer in Christ, you bet I am. Am I anti Muslim, I most definitely am.

LOL CS post tennis..

Well as far as i'm concerned the Pope being the most influential of all people he doesn't seem to be very vocal at all on the things you list?

A man in his position and authority you'd think he would be the leading charge against Islamic barbarity in this day and age, yes?

But nothing. Why?

"I know enough of history that shows when these religions have control of both civil and religious power they suppress the people! Where is the difference?"

The difference is that the followers of Islam seek global domination.

They seek the violent destruction of all non-Muslims: Jews, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists etc.

They will employ every wicked, evil, abominable act of barbarity to accomplish this.

They are the only group of people that teach their young children to become suicide bombers. The glory not in life but in death.

They are now resorting to placing explosives in there rectum in order to murder other human beings.

Does it get any sicker than this?

Be my guest..Fire away..

I agree-would you rather be a Muslim in France, Britain or America, free to propagate your faith, build mosques, seek out converts- or a Christian /Jew/ Hindu( a "dhimmi") in Muslim societies such as Pakistan, Taliban ruled Afghanistan, or Saudi Arabia?( Or is such a n observation de facto "Islamophobic?)

Terry

One may help the helpless, but there is little that can be done for the clueless.

Here once again we can realize what the general use of these words “dialogue with Islam” actually means: not to be active for our own, dealing with this matter of islam by not dealing at all. To be totally uninformed, as a virtue. Not to be aware of the dangerous aspects of that war machine islam, self-intentionally, and if aware in some degrees, because islamic realities are exploding around us day by day and in constant jihad manners only to smile like an idiot for a little “talk with islam” and right in this sence, about nothing, hoping islam will tolerate us. Talking only as hand-shaking in extenso, never-ending dialogue loopings without any landing on the bottom of truth, with closed lips and totally closed eyes over all reality of jihad islam, as constant absolutions for that violent islam, even talking without talking. One washing the hands of the others ‘in innocence’. To do these pretty castrations of our own minds and rigths, and by our self, that islam can accept us the next periods of times or a little bit shorter.
Bishop Santier ,as all these others, uses ‘Dialogue with Islam’ not in an ordinary sense where dialogue means talking about something. Here Dialogue about Burka, perhaps about jihad islam in toto. His understanding of dialogue is: endless talking with the explicite intention for nothing to speak about; talking instead …, instead of the war which islam is fighting against us and we have to answer for not to loose. Talking, only talking without talking, instead of any kind of action that can define us by our own. Dialogue is a simple washing maschine, for the glory jihad stuff, to make it devine, and to promote this Allah war machine with relgious under-standing as “human”, propagate that as dialogue partner shipping which is a total surrender.

Dialogue in this sense is: be obidient, no critics at all, only good messages about islam should be heared, no wisper about the daily news-making Islam, do not disturb the inner circles of that on-going islamic war, submission, imperative submission, unbelievers, otherwise …; Dialogue with islam is nothimg else than Islam: It is forbidden to use human brains and the technics of dialoging about conflicts and about each kind of truth and reality.
Down the heads in the sands and the asses to “heaven”, for penetrations, the holy one, by the prophet, the ultimative one. May be, for Bishop Santier, it is a catholic behaviour, to be penetrated. But it isn’t dialogue, not even that kind of pure ‘zoelibat’.

Pamela.Frankfurt germany

There is no equivalence between the two religions. This stupid idiot must either be willfully ignorant of the suffering of Christians, Gays, Women and anyone else who does not subscribe to the Muslim Ideology or be by his ignorance complicit in it. May he rot in hell !!!!

The problem for the Catholic Church is that it actually teaches "Love God and Your Neighbor as yourself." It accepts that God loves every person equally and completely from the moment of conception, and consequently it wants to believe that every one has the potential to do good works, lead good lives and, at death, enter the Kingdom of Heaven. This inevitably means that it will not give up on Islam until the very last Muslim dies and that 'religion' passes away. It seeks to evangelize, to convert, to save the unrepentant sinner. In the distant past the Church has earned a bad press from such things as persecution and the inquisition with the result that today, I think, it places an over-emphasis on ingratiation, niceness and unwillingness to cause offense. Many here on JW are convinced that this attitude is appeasement or stupidity or political correctness. I think it is probably a combination of all the conflicting ideas and, at the top of the tree, fear, fear of atrocities waged on Christians throughout the whole world if the Pope or the Church proclaims a crusading war against the evil cult of Islam. Any the wiser? No, I thought not. Hopefully, the anti-Catholic N.I. Presbyterians will eventually accept that the Church acts with good intentions

At this point I would just like to remind some of the more vehemently anti-Catholic posters who have contributed, that there *are* Catholics who know very well what Islam is, and are courageously speaking out. Mr Spencer - Greek Melkite Catholic - is one of those. The Archbishop of Sydney, Australia, one Cardinal George Pell, is another; I happen to know that he has read Bat Yeor on dhimmitude, and takes her warnings seriously. And Magdi Cristiano Allam, who chose to join the Catholic church in Italy, having been previously a Muslim, is quite, quite clear about the radical difference between Islam and Christianity.

The redoubtable Isabellathecrusader, who posts regularly at this site, is a devout Catholic; and I am sure that there are, and have been, others.

I would encourage all practising Catholic jihadwatchers - whether posters or lurkers - to write this French bishop a short, sharp letter (as from one Catholic Christian to another) to tell him where he's going wrong, and encourage him to change his mind.

If no-one speaks up to 'call' him on his folly, how will he know?

That applies, indeed, to all our leaders, religious and political. if they say or do something that furthers the defence against the Jihad - we *have* to let them know we approve. If they say or do something stupid or downright dangerous, again, we *have* to speak up and let them know.

They won't know if they're not told.

A small clarification/ extension of the above.

For "If they say or do something stupid or downright dangerous, again, we *have* to speak up and let them know",

read instead, "If they say or do something stupid or downright dangerous, something that weakens our societal defences against Jihad, again, we *have* to speak up and let them know they've gone wrong, and that we *disapprove*".

"We must respect Muslim rights if we want Islamic countries to respect our rights...

This is self defeating, and surrender...You have no 'rights' under Islam, except to convert and pay up, accept dhimmitude and pay up...or die...What is there in that, that a kufr should respect?...We 'must' do no such thing...in fact we should resist and fight Mahoundian 'rights'...Islams 'rights' are tyranny to kufr...If you don't fight Mahoundian rights, their rights will become your rights...That's called Sharia...

The settling of other scores, the expressing of other resentments, the forgetting that this site is not about everything you don't like about this or that collective of non-Muslims, and then the indignant or hurt replies, all this is on display above, much to the likely delight of apologists for Islam (both Muslim and non-Muslim). This happens a lot. This happens too much. Keep to the topic: Islam, and civilization's discontents with Islam, and the failure of too many non-Muslims, of all sorts and conditions, to grasp the meaning and menace of Islam, and finally, discussions (the cooler the better) on how to elucidate and warn about that meaning, and how to diminish that menace. Isn't that quite enough?

First off I want to say this, the anti-Catholic comments on this thread are frightening. It makes me wonder just how a united front will ever come about to stand against Islam....

As a practicing Catholic, you will never see me standing arm in arm with some of the secular leftist and anti-Catholic protestants I have read posting here. Just ain't gonna happen.... From the looks of it, after your done with Islam you will be after Catholics...

For my protestant brothers and sisters who seem to hate the Church so much all I will ask is this:

Where in the Bible does it say Sola Scriptura?

See what real, authentic Catholics think:
http://www.youtube.com/user/RealCatholicTV

What planet is this idiot on? Christians do not enjoy rights in muslim countries, except the right to be treated harshly and killed, as demanded by the Koran and Muhammed. It always amazes me how ignorant Christianity has become to the historical and extant threat Islam poses to their religion, their followers and the rest of the world. I am beginning to suspect that many in high positions in the Christian church are in fact leftist plants intent on destroying christianity. No one can research the koran and the history of muhammed without realising how dangerous and hate-filled Islam is.

I'm Christian, although not Catholic---but I wouldn't be too quick to write off the current pope as a clueless dhimmi. From reading this book of his:
http://www.amazon.com/Without-Roots-Relativism-Christianity-Islam/dp/B002YNS14S/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1265117196&sr=1-8
I think he's got a fairly good grasp on the big picture, and I'm willing to believe that he's not operating without a long-term strategy.

Yes David, lets do like the french did in the terror days, and finish with these catholics once more.Maybe this bishop is the new Henri Gregoire

All this about Catholicism versus Islam, and Catholicism versus Protestantism, would be very amusing if it were between grade school children. Then I could patiently educate them, after ensuring that they do not have pocket knives with which to "contend for their faith".

But these are not children, and they could be armed with something much more destructive than pocket knives. So it has to be hard and fast. OK.

All of your religions, all of them, are based on Bronze Age myths and codes of law. All of them contain, or have contained, abuses like circumcision, spanking, and the death penalty for all kinds of religious "crimes". Arguing which religion is best is like arguing that death by firing squad is better than death by auto-da-fe.

Saying Christianity is better than Islam is like saying it's better to be in the frying pan than the fire.
John
http://datalocuta.blogspot.com

United We Stand...
Divided We Fall...
Deliver us for the Evil that is Islam

Our Father Who art in Heaven
Hallowed by Thy Name
Thy Kingdom come
Thy Will be done
On earth as it is in Heaven
Give us this day our daily bread

And forgive us our trespasses as
We forgive those who trespass against us
And lead us not into temptation
But Deliver Us from the Evil that is Islam...
(For Thine is The Kingdom and The Power and The Glory, Forever and Ever)
Amen

A lot of counter-productive banter going on here. If you have come to this site, chances are you are among those that see the danger of Islamic ideology. The danger is certainly real and it is based on the belief that the entire world needs to bow to it. In other words, the planet is for "members only". "Members" are superior to all others, which automatically puts "all others" into a secondary, or even sub-human class. Clearly if one is sub-human, they can be dealt with in any manner that "Members" find appropriate.

Throughout history, the "Members only" ideology has been the basis of horrible atrocities and genocides. Many of these have been based on religion, but certainly not exclusively. The antithesis of the "Members only" ideology is the Golden Rule. It is the simplest of rules, yet it can take a lifetime to get right. We can start that process today.

What are you talking about bishop ? Muslims treat christians in their countries like animals.Remember
Coptics en Egypt,chritians in Malysia.Jordan,Syria,Irak,Indonesia,Pakistan and all islam countries finishing by AN..In Egypt for example christians have no civilians rights and must to pay yizya(taxe for non-muslim people).every day muslims burn churchs and kill christians.So, please bishop shut-up.

What are you talking about bishop ? Muslims treat christians in their countries like animals.Remember
Coptics en Egypt,christians in Malysia.Jordan,Syria,Irak,Indonesia,Pakistan and all islam countries finishing by AN..In Egypt for example christians have no civilians rights and must to pay yizya(taxe for non-muslim people).every day muslims burn churchs and kill christians.So, please bishop shut-up.

Bravo Boston Tea Party!

Here is a person that although we may disagree on much, I could sit down with at a bar over some beers and wings and have a conversation with.

Bishop Santier's comments illustrate how the church has become the willing ally of Islam in its war against Christianity.

In its quest to seek out a relevant place in society and ever more pious expressions of its faith and doctrine, the Christian church has succeeded in becoming so cringing and apologetic that it can now do little more than rush eagerly upon its own destruction. Even worse, because of its unwillingness to defend itself or the Christian values for which it should stand, the whole of Christendom is being thrown to the wolves along the way. The church is committing suicide and wants the rest of us to all join hands and jump with it.

To comfort itself from the shame of its own surrender, the church is claiming that it speaks for the rights of all religions to practise their faith, while ignoring the simple fact that for Muslims to practise their faith to their own satisfaction, means that all other faiths must be eradicated.

In Britain today the only prominent churchman with the courage to speak out is the Bishop of Rochester Michael Nazir-Ali, a Pakistani-born Christian with first-hand knowledge of Islam, who has been warning us for years about the danger of Muslim 'no-go' areas and the ineffectiveness of government integration policies. Although shortlisted for Archbishop of Canterbury he was tragically pipped at the post by the notorious Sharia-enabler and pre-emptive capitulator Rowan Williams - a disaster which more or less sealed the fate of the Anglican Church in Britain.

While all this is going on, the church, our governments and media are all busy bewailing the rise of political parties they describe as right-wing neo-Nazis (I won't name names, we all know who they are), while failing to realise their own contribution to the growing popularity of these organisations. The rise of the far-right is happening as a direct consequence of our temporal and spiritual leaders' unwillingness to tell the truth about Islam.

Political commentators openly agree that the growing disquiet over Islam is driving recruitment into far right-wing parties. In line with their staunchly middle-class outlook they frequently blame this on the inherent stupidity of the working-classes, to whom they feel so mightily superior. Of course, the pundits are blinkered by their own snobbish arrogance.

The rise of the far-right does not mean that the people are ignorant or are being misled, it means that they have worries which they feel are not being addressed by those in power. The people of this realm have already turned to their leaders for answers, only to find that both church and government not only avoid taking effective action, but are steadfastly unwilling to even acknowledge that a problem exists at all. Thus the people turn to those parties who recognise and sympathise with their concerns, and are willing to do something about it.

If the church and government were telling us the truth and taking effective action then the people would not feel the need to join or support neo-Nazi parties. Our leaders in both church and state could have avoided this by showing some leadership. They fail, constantly and repeatedly, just as Bishop Santier did. It is they who are driving our people into the arms of the far-right and if these parties continue to grow, the fault is theirs and theirs alone.

What are you talking about bishop ? Muslims treat christians in their countries like animals.Remember
Coptics en Egypt,chritians in Malysia.Jordan,Syria,Irak,Indonesia,Pakistan and all islam countries finishing by AN..In Egypt for example christians have no civilians rights and must to pay yizya(taxe for non-muslim people).every day muslims burn churchs and kill christians.So, please bishop shut-up.ALLONS EVEQUE,CA VA PAS NON..

What are you talking about bishop ? Muslims treat christians in their countries like animals.Remember
Coptics en Egypt,christians in Malysia.Jordan,Syria,Irak,Indonesia,Pakistan and all islam countries finishing by AN..In Egypt for example christians have no civilians rights and must to pay yizya(taxe for non-muslim people).every day muslims burn churchs and kill christians.So, please bishop shut-up.ALLONS EVEQUE CA VA PAS NON..

Boston Tea Party.
Soviet Union, PR of Cina, Cuba, Nth Korea were based on science, logic and human rationality?
You are not from this planet mate.
JEdgar.
It does look like they argue who’s god has a bigger “dick”.

Soviet Union, PR of Cina, Cuba, Nth Korea were based on science, logic and human rationality?
------
You are missing the point,Pong. They purport to be those things to attract liberal intellectuals, and shower disdain upon religion as an opiate of the uneducated masses.

It is not only religion they despise, but spirituality. Those societies are closed to not only official religious organizations, but individual human thoughts. The ultimate state of control is lobotomizing

Like the Nazis, in the trade-off between guns and butter, the always choose guns: be it bombs, satellites, or Brown Shirt tactics, there is no room left for freedom. Resources are used not to defend their own freedoms, but to destroy others' freedoms.

Where is the music, art, the freedom? And please do not point out Germany. They had wonderful music at Auschwitz. They used real art as fake window dressing.

Soviet Union, PR of Cina, Cuba, Nth Korea were based on science, logic and human rationality?
------
You are missing the point,Pong. They purport to be those things to attract liberal intellectuals, and shower disdain upon religion as an opiate of the uneducated masses.

It is not only religion they despise, but spirituality. Those societies are closed to not only official religious organizations, but individual human thoughts. The ultimate state of control is lobotomizing citizens: the Communists and Islamists share this trait. Like the Nazis, in the trade-off between guns and butter, the always choose guns: be it bombs, satellites, or Brown Shirt tactics, there is no room left for freedom. Resources are used not to defend their own freedoms, but to destroy others' freedoms.

Where is the music, art, the freedom? And please do not point out Germany. They had wonderful music at Auschwitz. They used real art as fake window dressing.

Medina.
Lenin had only contempt for liberal intellectuals. Soviet union was a very “spiritual” society. Communism resembles religion in many ways. It was not based on rationality but on faith. Western countries, though influenced by the Christian history rejected religion as a base and separated state from religion.
As for art and music, Soviet union produced far more then US or Europe during the same time. So, what point am I missing?

While I believe that Catholics are indeed Christians, the Roman Catholic Church has abandoned its duty to be "salt and light" to Muslims. Their official Catechism Number 841 regarding the Church's relationship with the Muslims states: "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day." This statement contradicts the single criterion for salvation -- belief in Jesus Christ as the savior per Acts 4:12 and 2 Timothy 2:10.

This was recognized almost 300 years ago by George Sale, the translator of the "Jefferson Quran", who said in his introduction, "The writers of the Romish communion, in particular, are so far from having done any service in their refutations of Mohammedism, that by endeavouring to defend their idolatry and other superstitions, they have rather contributed to the increase of that aversion which the Mohammedans in general have to the Christian religion, and given them great advantages in the dispute. The Protestants alone are able to attack the Koran with success; and for them, I trust, Providence has reserved the glory of its overthrow. . . Do not quit any article of the Christian faith to gain the Mohammedans. "

French Catholic bishop on burqa ban: "If we want Christian minorities in Muslim majority countries to enjoy all their rights, we should in our country respect the rights of all believers to practice their faith"
...................

Yes, and reading Islamic terrorists Miranda rights and trying them steps from Ground Zero are the only things that will convince Muslims that we practice the rule of law, and inspire them to do the same. sarc/off

more:

If we want Christian minorities in Muslim majority countries to enjoy all their rights, we should in our country respect the rights of all believers to practice their faith.
...................

As Ebonystone, above, noted, often Muslims "practicing their faith" includes such appalling things as "honor killings", forced marriages, FGM, and the murder of apostates who leave Islam.

Another way in which Bishop Santier's reasoning—I use the term loosely—is flawed is in thinking that Muslim treatment of their Infidel minorities is based on anything we are or are not doing here in the West. In reality, the terrible treatment of non-Muslim minorities is enshrined in the 7th-century Pact of Umar, which *mandates* abuse of non-Muslims.

Sure, Muslims may use some passing issue in the West—like the publication of Salman Rushdie's work or the appearance of the Motoons—as an excuse to target non-Muslims from time to time—but they are as likely to use some local rumor of "Qu'ran desecration" as anything else. Non-Muslims are intentionally always in a state of physical and legal insecurity in Muslim countries.

I agree with Hugh and Dumbledore's Army and some other posters that much of the divisive ugliness on this thread is not useful in any way.

Yes, this Bishop is a clueless Catholic dhimmi—but we have seen Anglican dhimmis, even in the form of Archbishop Rowan Williams and "Defender of the Faith" Prince Charles; we have seen clueless Jewish dhimmis, and agnostic dhimmis, and atheist dhimmis.

This is a common problem in the West—either innocent of non-so-innocent refusals to see the threat Islam represents *to all of us*. Some here may be parsing the differences—real or imagined—between Christian sects, and between degrees of religiousity, but I can assure you that Islam makes no such distinctions, but sees us *all* as filthy Kaffirs.

Here's Prince Charles playing the dhimmi:

"Prince Charles invited to celebrate Islamic spirituality, arts and culture"

http://www.caribbeanmuslims.com/

Lest anyone think I am now singling out the Brits or the Church of England, I am not. Sadly, I could have used any number of examples of hapless Infidel dhimmitude.

I agree with Hugh. We should stay on point and the point is the menace which Islam is to all the world. The Catholic bashing I've read here is pathetic. Just take a look at the Catholic theological blueprint versus the Islamic theological blueprint. How is the former in any manner a prescription for the ending of liberty in free societies? By contrast, the latter blueprint serves as a manual for the erosioin of freedom and tolerance in this world. Can individual Catholics do wrong or say stupid things, including about Islam? Of course. But this doesn't go the heart of Catholic doctrine which is almost infinitely more enlightened than Islamic doctrine. And as many here at JW know by now, I am not religious in the least and so I am not averring what I have from any Christian perspective, from any religious perspective at all.

Some posters say we should all unite against Islam. I disagree. The RC system is officially and in practice pro Islam. The Pope and the Catechism are avowedly so. How very little they say against it. How on earth can we ally with such people ? That would be like joining the Satanists to fight the Devil !

I wonder how this batty bishop would react if he were confronted with John Wesley's words:

Ever since the religion of Islam appeared in the world, the espousers of it... have been as wolves and tigers to all other nations, rending and tearing all that fell into their merciless paws, and grinding them with their iron teeth; that numberless cities are raised from the foundation, and only their name remaining; that many countries, which were once as the garden of God, are now a desolate wilderness; and that so many once numerous and powerful nations are vanished from the earth! Such was, and is at this day, the rage, the fury, the revenge, of these destroyers of human kind. - John Wesley

Now I'm not saying that Ratzinger is beyond criticism, or that he's the model anti-jihadist. But, he's no dummy, and he's not naive about the differences between Islam and Christianity:

To understand Benedict XVI’s thinking on Islamic religion, we must go over its evolution...... But the key point that he tackles is that of shari’a. He points out that:
“the Koran is a total religious law, which regulates the whole of political and social life and insists that the whole order of life be Islamic. Shari’a shapes society from beginning to end. In this sense, it can exploit such freedoms as our constitutions give, but it cannot be its final goal to say: Yes, now we too are a body with rights, now we are present [in society] just like the Catholics and the Protestants. In such a situation, [Islam] would not achieve a status consistent with its inner nature; it would be in alienation from itself”.
This alienation could be resolved only through the total Islamization of society. When for example an Islamic finds himself in a Western society, he can benefit from or exploit certain elements, but he can never identify himself with the non-Muslim citizen, because he does not find himself in a Muslim society.
Thus cardinal Ratzinger saw clearly an essential difficulty of socio-political relations with the Muslim world, which comes from the totalizing conception of Islamic religion, which is profoundly different from Christianity. For this reason, he insists in saying that we cannot try to project onto Islam the Christian vision of the relationship between politics and religion. This would be very difficult: Islam is a religion totally different from Christianity and Western society and this makes does not make coexistence easy.
http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/53826?eng=y

Ratzinger is the main enemy of freedom, democracy and truth. He is the one who should be watched, to say the least. He faces all ways, bends with every wind that blows. If political leaders were wise they would shun him and isolate him. If his followers were wise they would abandon him. He wants world domination and an end to the Christian gospel. If anyone doubts what I say, all I would say is: watch !

I appreciate the words of those such as Wellington who understand the distinction between Catholicism and Islam. It's clear he doesn't agree with Catholicism. I respect that opinion (don't agree with it), acknowledge his right to think it, and most of all I don't want him dead because of it....

I think that’s a good basis for further discussion between Catholicism and Islam when and if the subject came up in an appropriate forum.

However this is not what this thread is about, whether or not you agree with Catholic theology, to compare it to Islam shows ignorance.

Unfortunately I think what this thread has turned into is an excuse to bash Catholicism, and religion in general. The wolves come out. My Protestant friends be warned, those of you so quick to attack Catholicism and the Church are next. Many of these posts attack Christianity in itself and compare it to Islam. They speak of "spirituality" and "faith" instead of religion. Just think about the implications of that....

And for the record, read the entire section of the Catechism and what it says about the Church and Non-Christians, not just one paragraph talking about the overall plan of salvation. Very easy to pick and choose out of context.... Something that is done all too often with the bible….

http://www.youtube.com/user/RealCatholicTV

I love this guy...

Watch this before its pulled, the truth can be offensive...

Only 3 minutes

Islam Founded on Murder

http://www.youtube.com/user/RealCatholicTV#p/u/76/-yMjsOYDcfE

Hey! Knock it off! Listen as a Roman Catholic gal who has spent the better part of 9 years educating herself on Islam and trying to educate my fellow Catholics - especially the Vatican II kumbaya crowd of which this Bishop Santier may be poster child -- I want to stress the bickering about Christian theologies does our cause no good.

Our cause is the SURVIVAL of the West, is it not? Well then let us all sing from the same hymn book in this very important hour. We can debate how many angels dance on the head of a pin later. And the agnostics can debate if angels can dance and the atheists can debate if the pin even exists.

Right now, I am steering fellow Catholics who are clueless to the threat and extent of Islamic jihad to Mr. Spencer's books and this (usually) excellent website. And all this "Catholics aren't Christian" b.s. is sure to, not only tear us apart, but disgust and turn away those Catholics who are genuinely desirous of learning what the mainstream media is NOT telling them and why ol' Bev is always carrying around one of Mr. Spencer's or Mr. Steyn's or Ms. Darwish's books! SO COOL IT.

"And my hand is out to any man or woman of any and all faiths, as long as they stand with us for freedom, tolerance, justice and peace - the hallmarks of those who oppose Islam."

Well said.

I have noticed an increasing ammount of "christians" rushing to defend Islam, I am unsure why this is happening, one even had the cheek to call me "Bigoted" and "Racist" for saying that Islam would be the death of British freedom

Quite a nickname you have there.

George Sale seems to have been not too far from a par with old Martin Luther himself, for whom the Pope was as evil, if not more so, than the Islamic Caliph. The animosity between Protestants and Catholics runs deep in modern Western history, and resulted not only in calumnies and acrimony, polluting the public discussion with bitter gall, but also in considerable bloodshed and mayhem for centuries. It seems from the continuation of that age-old dispute above, that the anti-Catholic Protestant, who doth protest too much, is not a dead letter. As a modern agnostic, I tend to favor the Catholics, who seemed to have retained a higher residue of Reason in their culture -- e.g., just to pluck one example of thousands one could adduce from a tiara -- the enlightened Catholic philosopher, Erasmus, wrote a tractate on the "Freedom of the Will", to which Luther responded with his own tractate intransigently hammering home (as he was wont to do) his insistence "On the Enslaved Will" ("enslaved" being a better translation of the Latin servo than the customary "bondage"). The "will" in question, of course, being the human will, vis-a-vis divine will. How very Islamic of Luther, eh? There ensued a debate between the two of them, which in my estimation illuminates the higher degree of rationality in the Catholic tradition.

All that said, nevertheless as a couple of saner commenters above have noted, the Catholic church today has not survived PC MC any better than any other institution of the modern West -- including Protestants. I'd wager that most mainstream Protestants are just as PC MC about Islam as Catholics are today. Among Western Christians, it seems to be largely the "non-denominational" cranks who are just as liable to veer off into conspiracy theories about "globalists", "Papists" and "Masons" as they might be willing to show an awareness of the danger of Islam.

Woops. The "nickname" I was referring to in my last post was that of the commenter named "www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawmtKEuZyrKHhfwfi8kiREmbfBz4lyHYM2c".

Bishop Santier should mind his own business . He should wonder why churches in France are empty , why we cannot find priests anymore.....
Does he know that we have more mosques in the south of France than churches.
Bishop Santier should also know that in France , church and state are 2 different ball games
This man is a total idiot . If this idiot is a bishop. God help the Catholic church

I am so disgusted with the tried & true European appeasement strategy that almost ALWAYS ends up in spilled American blood. I'm all in for the "Clash of Civilizations" theory myself.

Oh, I was so irritaded I almost forgot. What "full rights" are he referring to? The right to be tried for blasphemy & executed? The right to be a second class citizen? I am a Christian but the lack of a backbone I am seeing in the faith distrubs me.

I think it might be appropriate, backing up Our Hugh's brief and trenchant remarks above, to re-post certain excellent postings by Hugh made in previous years, on this very comments floor, concerning what might loosely be called the 'House Rules' for this sometimes-rowdy virtual coffee shop, or tavern, or Hedge School of the Resistance.

First let us hear what he had to say in 2005, which statements you will find in situ if you scroll down through the comments to the following thread:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2005/11/fitzgerald-the-legacy-of-algerie-francaise-france-algerienne.html

1. Hugh | November 7, 2005 8:49 PM
Along with coats and hats, and a straitjacket or two,

could all those entering this site,

whatever political tendentiousness or tendency he or she may possess or exhibit, of the praise-blame, left-right right-left skorym shagom forward march variety,

please leave along with that hat, that coat, that straitjacket, all such reductive terms and reductive ways of looking at the universe.

You may of course decide not to come in, given that requirement,

but if you do, once you have had your articulate and thoughtful say on Islam,

you may certainly pick up those words and ways of looking at things, along with your hat, your coat, and possibly that straitjacket, on your way out.

And you may tip the comely hat check girl -- she's working her way through college.

The official motto of this site, I now realize, should always have been:

Lasciate ogni tendenza, voi ch'entrate."

2.
Hugh | November 8, 2005 9:27 AM
There are several possibilities now available.

The first is that all replies to Muslim posters be kept carefully to the point , with no words wasted.

The second is that all such comments by apologists for Islam, which apparently tempt too many to reply, and use up space, and time, will simply be routinely deleted.

And there is another problem: that of the trading of blows, the settling of scores, the airing of resentments, between and among various non-Muslim posters.

The invocation of either the Evils of Capitalism and Big Business, or of the Leftist Conspiracy to Hand Over America on a Platter to Islam, is getting out of hand.

{And one might add those other obsessions and grievances and bogeymen which have surfaced in this thread, 'Catholic' vs. 'non-Catholic Christian' - let all present please bear firmly in mind, *we are not in 1950s Belfast, nor in 16th century Paris or Geneva!!* - btw, I, dda, am the descendant, among other things, of a runaway marriage between a lapsed Catholic Irish immigrant bullocky and the well-brought-up daughter of a respectable Methodist English immigrant farmer; my grandfather was born a highly-telling six months after the wedding of his Catholic-Protestant parents in 1907...But back to Hugh}.

'So if, despite the good-natured invoking of a gruff billygoat, the infantile Hokey-Pokey continues, and so many join in, with slightly modified lyrics -- "You put your left point in, you take your left point out, you put your left point in and you shake it all about" which is then repeated by someone else, except that in his version the phrase "left point" is replaced by "right point," and so on -- continues, then this Hokey-Pokey quickly becomes unendurable, a veritable Dance of Death -- the Death of Thought.

Can't have it. Not enough space. Not enough time.

So if it continues, assorted poster babies, or posted babies, will have to be thrown out with the bathwater.

In other words, all comments, even the useful ones, even the wonderful ones, will no longer be permitted, because there is no time to sort out the good from the bad, and some of the bad are making -- on visitors -- a bad first impression, and they may not stay for a longer look, and they should.

The more people who come to this site, and see what Islam and the Jihad is all about, the better. They mustn't be driven away."

Everyone new to this forum should bear in mind that in 2005 the offtopic wrangling threatened to become so disruptive and unproductive - a waste of costly bandwidth - that Mr Spencer and Mr Fitzgerald had considered shutting down comments altogether.

People, dont complain. Do what I did - I sent the idiot an email.

Address: 'communication@eveche-creteil.cef.fr'

Dear Sir Madam: Please pass to the Bishop......

Reference your comment to the effect that “If we want Christian minorities in Muslim majority countries to enjoy all their rights, we should in our country respect the rights of all believers to practice their faith".

They have the total and complete right to practice their faith right now, which is more than you can say for Christians in muslim countries.

Are you, how do I put this, stupid? Do you read the newspapers? Are you unaware of the persecution of Christians in Muslim countries, every single day? Did you know that 186,000 Christians were murdered last year, the vast majority in muslim countries? I can document that, by the way, there is a website dedicated to publicizing the atrocities of muslims on Christians – see below.

Did you not see that 12 (or 18) Coptic Christians were slaughtered outside of their CHURCH on Christmas Day this year in Egypt?

Are you aware of the Pact of Omar? Do you know that the rights of Christians in Muslim countries are codified as second class citizens? Have you tried to build a church in Saudi Arabia lately? Do you not know that many middle eastern regions used to be populated primarily by Christians, and they have now been driven ALMOST COMPLETELY out by the islamists?

I have always found that if I know nothing on a subject, I am better off saying nothing.

You would be well advised to heed this advice……you do considerably more harm than good.

And here is more, from Hugh, from that same period of offtopic uproar among commenters, in November 2005. To find it, click on the following link and scroll down -

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2005/11/fitzgerald-hashemite-dreams-iraqi-schemes.html

Hugh | November 11, 2005 1:09 PM
"I somehow mistakenly believed that this was a forum for trading ideas/facts/arguments back and forth."
-- from a posting by a wounded and disillusioned poster above

'You were mistaken. This is in the main a pedagogic site, with occasional time out for paronomastic play and musings on language.

'Postings cannot be patrolled, though egregious examples of a lack of decorum will be removed when brought to the attention of the bouncer in the back, the one chatting up the hat-check girl.

'That some choose to trade insults with one another,

to crudely or rudely emote,

or to bite at the proffered bait of those trolling invitingly for unwary fish in McElligot's Pool,

is not part of the site's intent, is not encouraged, is actively discouraged. And not only by the bouncer and that fetching hat-check girl.

'There are many sites where people can "trade" as you put it, "ideas/facts/arguments," in short, all that Internet equivalent of the late-night discussion of such fascinating freshman dorm-room topics as "Is there a God?" and "Free Will and Determinism" and "Why Bad Things Happen to Good People" and "Why Good Things Happen to Bad People," and "Whether Pigs Have Wings."

'These are sites where no one really rises beyond a certain level, the cretins come to dominate, because they have the most stamina, while the intelligent, if they ever showed up in the first place, often drop out dismayed.

'True equality in the Great Democracy of the Internet is as much to be deplored as Democracy and Equality in any school or classroom, from that of the first-grade teacher in the hopelessly progressive school who has his charges vote on whether the next unit should be on dinosaurs or on Greek mythology, to the college teacher who glows as he tells you about how his students acquire the "Learning Experience" and complacently assures you that "I don't teach my students -- my students teach me. I learn so much from them."

'Give me the sober atmosphere of the series of lectures on "Our Debt to Antiquity" delivered in 1903 by Dr. Zielinski of the University of St. Petersburg to the highest classes of that city's secondary schools, or Professor Nikolai Trubetzkoy in 1934 delivering lectures on Slavic phonology at the University of Vienna, or Dr. Yuri Lotman in 1977, in his Tartu exile, speaking on "Literature and Literariness in Pushkin" to rapt listeners who had arrived by train from Moscow and even Siberia in order to hear him speak.

'In each case, however passionately divine the icy intellect, human warmth heaved behind the glinting glasses.

'And a perfect internal thermostat, to be adjusted as needed, between that human and that divine.

'No nonsense, no sentimental "democracy in the classroom" or "learning" through trading of "ideas/facts/arguments," no voting by students as to whether they'd like to build models of Triceratops this month or would prefer to draw pictures of Hercules killing the Erymanthian Boar.

'Spare us, please, all that yearning for earnest freshman-year exchanges of "ideas" and "arguments" -- as you optimistically call them.

'There are many websites where you can engage, ad libitum, in those Yankee-swapmeets of "ideas/facts/arguments" in which you express such an interest.

'Your own postings offered little in the way of fact, or cogent argument, so one wonders.

'Exaggerated attention was given to such matters as the religious affiliation of your best friend, and the ethnic and religious identification of those to whom you are related by marriage, and you took great care (to identify yourself (who cares?), more than once, as a "Roman Catholic."

'All of these inconsequential details -- conservative Jewish best friend, Lebanese Christian in-laws, Roman Catholic faith --

'are apparently supposed to place your youth-wants-to-know disingenuous apologetics for Islam, no matter how lame or inane, as beyond criticism,

'because of that best friend who davens, that sister-in-law who cooks such fabulous kibbeh, and your own unforgettable if forgetful memorizing of the Baltimore Catechism when you were a kid and what you really wanted was to watch the Baltimore Colts on television.

'You have been semaphoring that not only are you most definitely not a Muslim (who cares?) but that you are surrounded by those who are most definitely not Muslims either, and that it must follow, therefore... --- therefore, what must follow?

'At those thousands of sites where you can trade "ideas/facts/arguments" with the like-minded or unlike-minded, the kind of thing you have offered by way of ex-ungue-leonem sample would fit right in.

'And at the same sites, at no extra charge, you may exchange thoughts and feelings with others about what you think and especially what you feel, to your heart's content.
This site is not one of them."

I am amazed that the Catholic leaders continue to say and do stupid things, and the members say nothing. They have their heads in some dark place (with other Christian leaders), while Christians and Catholics are being slaughtered in every corner of the earth.

There is no spiritual reward for letting someone tear you apart with a machete.

Wow, I certainly missed this party. 'Been busy over at one of the Rifqa Bary comments threads at the Columbus Dispatch refuting the lies of CAIR operatives so it's been a busy couple of days. My inclination is to go to bed but having read these comments I simply can't without.

Thank you, Dumbledore for your kind words about my faith. It was kind of you to say that and I have respect for your faith as well, having often appreciated your gracious nature. I don't know if I'm devout but I do try. And Wellington, as usual I can always count on you to defend my right to practice my faith. Thank you my friend.

Having said all that I normally don't speak about such things here as being a Catholic is my personal belief and many of you aren't so I don't talk to you about it. But if you want to understand what has happened to the Catholic Church in the past century I'll try and explain my understanding of it.

In 1917 we were warned at Fatima that God was deeply offended by our behavior and our actions. This took place when the Blessed Virgin Mary appeared to Lucia, Jacinta and Francesco, three little peasant children who were extremely devout and who were asked to pray for poor sinners everywhere by praying the Rosary, doing small penances and offering up difficulties for others. The Blessed Mother appeared to these children over a six month period from May 13 to October 13 and on her last visit she performed a miracle that was recorded in the secular newspaper and many communists, atheists and other non-Catholics were converted because of it. You can read more about it here:

http://www.theotokos.org.uk/pages/approved/appariti/fatima.html

The Blessed Mother told the children:

"You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart. If what I say to you is done, many souls will be saved and there will be peace. The war is going to end; but if people do not cease offending God, a worse one will break out during the pontificate of Pius XI. When you see a night illumined by an unknown light, know that this is the great sign given you by God that he is about to punish the world for its crimes, by means of war, famine, and persecutions of the Church and of the Holy Father.

"To prevent this, I shall come to ask for the consecration of Russia to my Immaculate Heart, and the Communion of Reparation on the First Saturdays. If my requests are heeded, Russia will be converted, and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred, the Holy Father will have much to suffer, various nations will be annihilated. In the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me and she will be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world."

Sorry guys. I'm really tired and my brain's not working right and this is contemplated so I will come back and make my points tomorrow. Good night all.

The link I provided above will not take you to the article by Krupp. For anyone, not just Al, who wants to read this article, which I highly recommend, go to the New York Post site and then to its search engine and put in "Gary Krupp on Pius XII." Up will come his December 28th, 2009 piece and there will also come up a January 1, 2010 article by a Rabbi Greenberg refuting what Krupp has to say. But Greenberg's article provides almost no specifics and, most interestingly, there is a comment to Greenberg's criticism of Krupp by Krupp himself in the Comments section below the Greenberg article. Krupp essentially demolishes Greenberg's criticism of Pius and also demolishes Greenberg's criticism of Krupp himself.

Personally, I am getting very tired of the same old false charges leveled against Pius XII. It is very demonstrative of how the past can be distorted and also how a little knowledge is indeed a dangerous thing. This is pertinent to Jihad Watch in general because if a good man like Pope Pius XII can be trashed, then a bad man like Mohammed can be extolled. The truth is elusive but usually can be found if one is diligent enough.

Continuing from last night.

The Blessed Mother at Fatima gave three secrets to the children she appeared to. The third secret was not to be released until a later time but definitely by 1960. She told Lucia, who became a nun, that the third secret would be better understood at that time. Pope John XXIII read the message and decided not to release it. Shortly after this time Vatican II commenced and an upheaval unlike any other the Church had ever known began and continues to this day as the traditions and doctrine of the church were systematically dismantled and replaced with a new mass, a new mentality of the clergy and a whole new modern church. Those who resisted and held fast to the Tridentine Mass, the mass Pope St. Pius V codified for all times back in the 16th century, were ostracized, belittled and kicked out of the churches they helped to build.

My parents worked at fiestas, rummage sales and other fund raisers to help build my first parish church, Our Lady of Fatima in San Clemente, California that was finished in 1962. Just four short years later my mother said, un-uh, grabbed us kids and we went to church at the Old Mission in San Juan Capistrano, seven miles away, and stayed there until the pastor, a Brit, Monsignor Lloyd Russell past away and the modernists took over that church too. (He was a powerful man and the modernists did not want to mess with him and being elderly they knew they just had to bide their time.) I was seventeen years old at the time when I lost my Tridentine Mass and started on an interesting odyssey. I didn't lose my faith like many of my friends but I sometimes have gone through hell to keep it.

The aftermath of Vatican II, while some people gush about how wonderful it was, was a disaster. Lost vocations, priests and nuns breaking their solemn vows and leaving the church, radical feminism invading the convents, nuns leaving hospitals and schools to become political activists in defiance of their vows of poverty, chastity and obedience, families broken by no fault divorce, the creation of the pill, Catholics embracing it and endangering their souls and leading to the establishment of abortion as the law of the land, the rise of homosexuality in the seminaries and hierarchy of the church, what appears to be an epidemic of child abuse by pedophile priests, the loss of faith, the exodus of millions of people from the church who became disillusioned or who lost their faith or who never learned it at Catholic School because of modernist experiments that replace catechism lessons.

I came out pretty much unscathed because I have a mother who took care to debrief my little sister and me when we got home from school. But my sister and I were abused by teachers, nuns and other students with parents who wholeheartedly drank the Kool-Aid and had no idea what they were ushering in. At the time, for a little while I resented being the odd one out, having to go to Old Mission when all my friends went to mass and sang in the choir at Our Lady of Fatima where, while I no longer went to the church, still attended the Catholic school attached to it. But as time went on I began to notice the differences in the Tridentine Mass of tradition and the Novus Ordo Mass of the future (we sometimes went to mass as a class and when I made my first communion in 1966 and was confirmed in 1973 it was in the Novus Ordo service.) Looking back I've often thought of how lucky I was that my mom didn't care about how I felt but made me go to mass at the Old Mission and how that experience has shaped my faith and who I am today.

Getting back to the third secret, it was supposedly released on June 26, 2000 by Pope John Paul II but theologians have long suspected that, and some have attested to the fact that the entire message has not been released. This makes sense because it is illogical that the third secret that several popes refused to release contained mostly the message about Pope John Paul being murdered. There have been plenty of popes murdered throughout history so why would the Blessed Mother appear to tell us about one more? That doesn't make sense. What does make sense and what many theologians have suspected over the past ninety three years is that the third secret contained a message warning Catholics of the apostasy of the hierarchy of the church, that the Church's bishops, cardinals and possibly even the Pope would not defend the faith against modernism. Perhaps this is why Pope John XXIII ignored the Blessed Mother's request to release the message when he had the chance to. He also did not consecrate Russia to her Immaculate Heart, with all the bishops on a certain day in order to bring peace to the world. It is curious that Pope John was reputed to have said all three mysteries of the Rosary, which is over 150 prayers in honor of the Blessed Mother, everyday but did not see fit to honor her request.

I was talking to my mother about this the other day and it suddenly hit me like a lightening bolt why the Consecration of Russia to Mary's Immaculate Heart hadn't taken place yet and why some of the bishops and other hierarchy of the Church have chosen war and annihilation over obedience. Because they agree with the changes made in the Church, because were infected with political correctness long before the rest of the world and the people were and because so many (not all) of them aren't willing to stand up and be ostracized for telling the truth about the state of the world and why we are in so much trouble right now.

People, listen to Isabella. Her insights are right on. I was living through the looniness created by what was constantly referred to as "the spirit of Vatican II" and wandering for over 20 years in the litugical deserts of Chicago and suburbs. I am grateful for finding my present parish, St. John Cantius, in Chicago where our pastor has restored our sacred rites and restored our sacred arts and music.

But my point is that what Isabella was saying is SO TRUE. We Catholics have our share of aging Boomer and pre-Boomer politically correct crazies in the episcopate and priesthood. Don't even get me started on the some of the nutty nuns (thankfully their numbers are dying out). Don't judge us harshly as we are only human and many of our humans have become infected by the zeitgeist of the PC Age; or as Father George Rutler refers to it "The Age of Sentimentality".

Remember that when it comes to Islamic jihad and its basis in Islam's doctrines, Cardinal Pell and the Czech cardinal GET IT and are not the only ones that do. However, Benedict XVI inherited as any pope does, a vast bureaucracy of many entrenched bishops and cardinals who share the elitist mindset and embrace, as many of the European secular elites do, not the doctrine of Jesus Christ, but that of P.C. and multiculti correctness.

Thanks Bevc, I hope that makes sense. There's a lot more to it but I remember my parents having no say, none, in trying to stop the changes that they knew would systematically destroy the church.

I've often thought about how the good bishops and priests were for all intents and purposes neutered and rendered ineffective after the Vatican II Tsunami hit. That is why a decade after Vatican II abortion became a legal right for women to choose. What nonsense. If the Church had not been weakened by the liberal assault I don't believe abortion would have stood any chance of becoming part of our Constitution. And as long as it is we are running head long into the abyss. Do people really think that God doesn't know these human beings are being murdered? Do they really think we will get away with it with no response from Him forever?

If what goes around comes around I don't want to think about all the things we've done to tick God off so that he would remove His hand of protection from this country and allow the onslaught of Islam into our lives. But think about it we must, and determining to do something about changing things we must, or we're simply going to get more 9/11's, more KSM trials and more madrassa trained bozos for president.

Is Charles Chaput still [Catholic] Archbishop of Denver?

If so, perhaps his article from 2006,

available here

http://www.archden.org/dcr/news.php?e=379&s=2&a=7992

(the link still worked today, February 4 2010)

and reproduced and discussed here at jihadwatch

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2006/08/in-christian-muslim-relations-peace-not-served-by-ignoring-history.html

could be translated into French by a Francophone jihadwatcher, and sent to his brother bishop in France, by way of a reality check.

And since, in a posting above, I mentioned Australia's Cardinal Archbishop George Pell, here he is, speaking plainly about Islam, also in 2006.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2006/05/anti-dhimmitude-from-australias-cardinal-pell.html

Again: a translation of Pell's words into French by anyone able to do so adequately (I can translate *from* French, but not *into* it), and forwarding of same to Bishop Santier, might be worth a try.

Post scriptum: I have checked, and the original embedded links do not seem to work; however, I did make a copy of the entire article at the time, and could provide that here, if anyone is interested.

Clarification: when I said above that the embedded links did not work, I meant only the links embedded within the 2006 Jihadwatch report of Cardinal Pell's speech.

Wellington and Al:

This book, "The Pius Wars" contains the best overview of the problem -- read the Introduction, free from Google Books at the following link, for an overview of the revisionist history that has smeared Pope Pius. The book is edited by two scholars, one of them a Jewish rabbi, by the way. Unless Al reads at least this Introduction and provides a counter-argument, he cannot be taken seriously.

http://books.google.com/books?id=XRAD4-xMqysC&pg=PA111&lpg=PA111&dq=pope+pius+dalin&source=bl&ots=L8JNoeQigi&sig=eYpoH6_4AfJvBf3dUULA0dvwQYk&hl=en&ei=Kn4JS87VD4vllAeF5PyEBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CA8Q6AEwAjgK#v=onepage&q=pope%20pius%20dalin&f=false