Girl buried alive in honor killing in Turkey

Syria recently scrapped a law limiting the length of sentences for honor killings, but "the new law says a man can still benefit from extenuating circumstances in crimes of passion or honour 'provided he serves a prison term of no less than two years in the case of killing.'"

That's right: two years for murder! You can serve more time than that for serial double parking.

In 2003 the Jordanian Parliament voted down on Islamic grounds a provision designed to stiffen penalties for honor killings. Al-Jazeera reported that "Islamists and conservatives said the laws violated religious traditions and would destroy families and values."

And a manual of Islamic law certified as a reliable guide to Sunni orthodoxy by Al-Azhar University, the most respected authority in Sunni Islam, says that "retaliation is obligatory against anyone who kills a human being purely intentionally and without right." However, "not subject to retaliation" is "a father or mother (or their fathers or mothers) for killing their offspring, or offspring's offspring." ('Umdat al-Salik o1.1-2).

In other words, someone who kills his child incurs no legal penalty under Islamic law.

That's why these honor killings keep happening -- because they are broadly tolerated, even encouraged, by Islamic teachings and attitudes. Yet no authorities are calling Islamic leaders to account for this.

"Girl buried alive in honour killing in Turkey: Report," from AFP, February 4 (thanks to all who sent this in):

ANKARA - A 16-year-old girl was buried alive by relatives in southeast Turkey in a gruesome honour killing just because she reportedly befriended boys, the Anatolia news agency reported Thursday.

Acting on a tip-off, police discovered Medine Memi's body in a sitting position with her hands tied, in a two-metre-deep hole in a chicken pen outside her house in Kahta town, Adiyaman province, 40 days after she went missing, the agency said.

A subsequent post mortem revealed that she had a significant amount of soil in her lungs and stomach, meaning that she was buried alive, foresic experts told the agency.

"The autopsy result is blood-curdling. According to our findings, the girl -- who had no bruises on her body and no sign of narcotics or poison in her blood -- was alive and fully conscious when she was buried," one anonymous expert said.

Medine's father and grandfather have been formally arrested and jailed pending trial over her killing, the agency said.

The father is reported to have said in his testimony that the family was unhappy she had male friends.

In honour killings, most prevalent in Turkey's mainly Kurdish southeast, a so-called family council names a member to murder a female relative considered to have sullied the family honour, usually by engaging in an extra-marital affair.

But the practice has gone so far as to kill rape victims or women who simply talked to strange men.

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However, "not subject to retaliation" is "a father or mother (or their fathers or mothers) for killing their offspring, or offspring's offspring." ('Umdat al-Salik o1.1-2)."

Killing their children, or their "offspring's offspring." Just one of that offspring's offspring, or any or all of them? Infidels have similar problems when they try to make provisions in their wills, for children and also grandchildren, the latter usually taking per stirpes. What a grim per stirpes in Islam, with its permanent fund of un-trust, that un-trust fund, and the rules according to which you can get away with murder, as long as those you are murdering are your nearest and dearest.

A mad Muslim world, my masters!

Is this just another Islamic "misunderstanding"?

Why do they always prove fatal to women? Or children?

Maybe it is because of the verse Hugh cited?

No! That would mean that "honor killing" has something to do with Islam.

I await the obvious taquiyya.

Another Islam misunderstanding? Are you serious? These people are totally insane. They killed their daughter because she had made MALE friends! How stupid is this reason to take somebody's life?

Islam is insane. I can not think of any words that can discribe how I feel about radical Islam. Where is the honor here? THERE IS NONE!
I hope you both rot in Hell for what you did to this girl.

Is it asking too much for Western women to show gratitude towards those who drove back Islam, like Pelayo, Charles Martel, Jan Sobieski and co, because without them, that would be happening to women in the West now. Maybe that sort of barbarianism is the future of the West thanks to bleeding heart liberals and the PC brigade who churn out remarks like racist and bigot at those who dare to criticise this sort of barbarianism. And where are the feminists?

Hiding.

Feminism is okay in the West. But we cannot force it upon other cultures.

Typical PC MC rot.

Gruesome. Inhuman. Unthinkable. Daddy & Grampa, the 2 most important male-figures in her young life. Her own father! Like a horror-movie, only worse, it's real. It's islam.

But it ain't just happening down on the chicken farm in Turkey. Wife beheaded in New York. Daughter run-over & killed in Arizona.
Teenage sisters killed by father in Texas. Rifqa Bary in Ohio.

If people don't want this barbarism in their societies, don't want their cultures to become daily horror-movies...then they need to understand...

THIS IS WHAT YOU GET WHEN YOU GET ISLAM!


One can only marvel at what appears to be the continual theological sloppiness of Jihad Watch. The passage in Umdat al Salik says nothing about a killer of their child or grandchild incurring no legal penalty. It says that the killer is exempt from the qisas retributive dimension of punishment. My understanding is that other forms of penalties remain applicable.

This level of JW 'scholarship' appears to be roughly the equivalent of a Muslim claiming that the Western world's continual widespread problems with child abuse stem from the Book of Proverbs in the Jewish and Christian Bibles.

"He that spares the rod hates his son"

"You shall beat him with the rod and deliver his soul from hell."

Fairuzfan, I am not an expert on Islam, but it seems obvious that the penalty for an honor killing is not severe enough to stop the relatives of these women from committing murder.

The practice itself is dishonorable, shameful, and ungodly. To err is human, to forgive divine. There is obviously no divinity associated with Islam.

Tastaafl,

Modern feminism is not OK, not even in the West.

Almost every Muslim country has some meaningful and valuable, if imperfect, legal recognition and protection for the unborn. That should be respected, protected, and emulated by the United States, Canada, and Europe. Not be subject to the immoral depradations of pagan Westerners who have long since discarded what it truly means to be a true Westerner.

Yes, Jim S., I think your initial comments are reasonable, and the penalties from governments do not appear to be as strong as they should be, and the apparent docility and relative silence of the mujtahid overall has to end.

That doesn't mean Islam should not be fully and accurately presented. And if one is only concerned when the victims are killed by Muslims, and seems to show little to no care when the perpetrators are Hindus, Sikhs, or others, then it is hard to take seriously any notion or suggestion that true concern over the practice and its victims is what's at work here.

Amen George, Amen! You hit the nail on its head. This is exctly what you get when you believe in ISLAM.

It is shameful, ugly, ungodly, inhumane, totally disgusting, gruesome, and any other word that I can't think of at the moment.

This girl is dead! Gone! And Daddy and Grandpa think that they have saved the family's honor. Give me a break! How stupid can people be? And of course, the mother can't say a thing or do anything because of what will happen to her.

If anybody, and I do mean anybody ever thinks of doing any kind of harm to my family, look out. I will not be responsible for my retaliation. But trust me, people will pay for messing with me and mine. n

Orhan Pamuk where are you? Stop writing your self centered Turkish love stories set in Istanbul in another age. There's much more relevant stuff going on but writers just go on writing safely as if all the Islamic insanity going on in the world is no big deal. We could use some novelists with guts?

Just like Mohammed condemned to death by stoning, a pregnant adulteress.
He did wait to bury her in the sand and knock her head off with stones until AFTER she weaned her baby. Hey, he wasn't totally heartless.

Hitler, Mein Kampf, and Nazis look rather mild compared to Mohammed, Koran, and Muslims

Agreed, STORM! ...islam and its adherents are evil and barbaric, and this heinous crime serves as yet another prime example. There is no honor in murdering ones own. What a lie ...as is the whole of islam a lie.

The girl's name, Medine, derives from the world meaning "Civilization" in Turkish. Here's what one Turkish columnist wrote about her murder:

http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/columnists-194702-the-murder-of-civilization.html

Zaman at first published only one comment, that of a Dr. Seyhan, until challenged as to why they were withholding other comments. Dr. Seyhan thought the young girl should just have been confined to her house until death, as Islam teaches, he said.

Supplementary:

'Sky News' -

"Girl buried alive in grisly honour killing"

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Turkey-Honour-Killing-Medine-Memi-16-Buried-Alive-By-Relatives-For-Having-Male-Friends/Article/201002115542711?f=rss


And, of course, in a broader political context, the European Commission turns a blind eye to such aspects of Turkish society, in an unswerving effort to inflict such cultural activities on European people, via the on-going campaign to get Turkey into the E.U.

Storm,

Yes, not only what you get when you believe in islam...but what you get when you ALLOW muslims into your country! And a postscript would be: If we know this is what we'll get...and we continue to allow them in...then we'll get what we deserve!

G

Why is this story being publicized now when it happened last fall? Is it because of the autopsy results?

It was a horrible story before; now it's beyond words.

All Muslim women are buried alive.

In Islam.

The tomb of decency.

The sepulchre of sanity.

The crypt of compassion.

fairuzfan sez:


"Almost every Muslim country has some meaningful and valuable, if imperfect, legal recognition and protection for the unborn."


That is true...usually the Muslims wait for the unborn child to be born and weaned....then they kill the woman....

Islam is an abomination from Hell!!

The brutality, barbarism, and savagery of of this CULT OF DEATH far surpasses any other evil that has or does exist on this earth.

Your comparing the hateful teachings of the Qu'ran to the Christian Bible are totally in error.

A Contrast Between
Mohammed and Jesus Christ

Mohammed was the prophet of war; Christ is the Prince of Peace (Isaiah 9:6-7).

Mohammed's disciples killed for the faith; Christ's disciples were killed for their faith (Acts 12:2; 2 Tim. 4:7).

Mohammed promoted persecution against the "infidels"; Christ forgave and converted the chief persecutor (1 Tim. 1:13-15).

Mohammed was the taker of life; Christ is the giver of life (John 10:27-28).

Mohammed and his fellow warriors murdered thousands; Christ murdered none but saved many (compare John 12:48).

Mohammed's method was COMPULSION; Christ's aim was voluntary CONVERSION (Acts 3:19).

Mohammed practiced FORCE; Christ preached FAITH (John 6:29,35).

Mohammed was a WARRIOR; Christ is a DELIVERER (Col. 1:13; 1 Thess.1:10).

Mohammed conquered his enemies with the sword; Christ conquered his enemies with another kind of sword, the sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God (Heb. 4:12; Acts 2:37).

Mohammed said to the masses, "Convert or die!"; Christ said, "Believe and live!" (John 6:47; 11:25-26).

Mohammed was swift to shed blood (Rom. 3:15-17); Christ shed His own blood for the salvation of many (Eph. 1:7).

Mohammed preached "Death to the infidels!"; Christ prayed "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do" (Luke 23:34).

Mohammed declared a holy war (Jihad) against infidels; Christ achieved a holy victory on Calvary's cross (Col. 2:14-15) and His followers share in that victory (John 16:33).

Mohammed constrained people by conquest; Christ constrained people by love (2 Cor. 5:14).

Modern terrorists derive their inspiration from Mohammed and carry out their despicable atrocities in the name of his god Allah; Christians derive their inspiration from the One who said, "Blessed are the peacemakers" (Matthew 5:9).

Some modern day disciples of Mohammed responded to the terrorist attacks by cheering in the streets; modern day disciples of Christ are deeply grieved at past atrocities carried out by those who were "Christians" in name only (the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, etc.).

Many Muslims are peaceful and peace-loving because they do not strictly follow the teachings of their founder; many Christians are peaceful and peace-loving because they do strictly follow the teachings of their Founder (Rom. 12:17-21).

Mohammed called upon his servants to fight; Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world; if My kingdom were of this world, then would My servants fight . . .but now is My kingdom not from here" (John 18:36)

Mohammed ordered death to the Jews (see A.Guillaume, The Life of Muhammad, Oxford University Press [1975], p. 369); Christ ordered that the gospel be preached "to the Jew first" (Rom. 1:16).

The Koran says, "Fight in the cause of Allah" (Qu'ran 2.244); the Bible says, "we wrestle not against flesh and blood" and "the weapons of our warfare are not carnal" (Eph. 6:12; 2 Cor. 10:4).

The Koran says, "Fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them" (Qu'ran 9.5); Christ said, "Preach the gospel to every creature" (Mark 16:15).

The Koran says, "I will inspire terror into the hearts of unbelievers" (Qu'ran 8.12); God inspires His terror (fear, reverential awe) into the hearts of believers (Isaiah 8:13).

The Koran (Qu'ran) is a terrorist manual which condones fighting, conflict, terror, slaughter, and genocide against those who do not accept Islam; the Bible is a missionary manual to spread the gospel of peace to all the world (Rom. 10:15).

Mohammed's Mission was to conquer the world for Allah; Christ's mission was to conquer sin's penalty and power by substitutionary atonement (2 Cor. 5:21; 1 Pet. 3:18).

Mohammed considered Christ a good prophet; Christ pronounced Mohammed to be a false prophet (John 10:10; Matt. 24:11).

Mohammed claimed that there was but one God, Allah; Christ claimed that He Himself was God (John 10:30-31; John 8:58-59; John 5:18; John 14:9).

Mohammed's Tomb: OCCUPIED!
Christ's tomb: EMPTY!

This made me so sick to read.

The last few years I've seen and read some of the most horrible things being committed by muslims in the name of allah. But no matter how gruesome those acts are, islam always manages to stoop even lower.

I don't know which is more disgusting to me - these vile acts of evil or the fact muslims still remain silent or in denial about them.

How many of these killings do we need to witness without muslim outrage before the West realizes there is no outrage because the problem is ISLAM? There is no outrage, because these horrible deeds are a part of ISLAM.

Muhammad said, "Silence is consent." Think about that every time you read one of these sickening stories and no muslims condemn them.

This is true islam.

For every honor killing we hear about, there are a dozen we don't. Even in the West. They cover very well for each other. When it is revealed it is usually a fluke. I'll bet even money it was someone with a grudge against the daddy that spilled the beans.

fairuzfan is notorious for making false comparisons between Christianity and islam ...and hes been attempting this for a while now. He claims to be a Christian, but he most certainly is NOT, as demonstrated by his utter contempt and hatred for Christians. He's a hopeless mohammedan and mother of all liars whose only purpose here is to take shots at Robert and other posters, and to defend islam, et al, ad nauseum! ...thought you would want to know the truth about him :)

"Although _honour_killings_are_not_infrequent in Turkey, the especially gruesome manner of Medine Memi’s death has shocked the nation."... So simple slaughter of your unruly children is business as usual, it's the chicken coop that got their attention, the horror!!!

...

Christian soldier: Can I have some of what you've been smoking? :))

Thanks for the info on fairuzfan.

I will be checking my radar and and I'll keep him in my crosshairs.

Keep fighting the good fight.

"We know how we are supposed to train; we how we are supposed to fight.
So soldier on my brothers soldier on."

David L. Clark, CSM (Ret), US Army Special Forces

"Islam is insane."

Agree 100%. There is nothing admirable in it. It turns it's followers stark raving mad, like rabid animals. Didn't Churchill say something like "hydrophobia in a dog" concerning the effect of islam on humans?

"the Western world's continual widespread problems with child abuse"

Excuse me, but - are you insinuating that the Muslim world *doesn't* have "problems with child abuse?" What do you call the subject of this thread? You Muslims are such hypocrites.

"You shall beat him with the rod and deliver his soul from hell."

Muslims are good at that too; child abuse is just as prevalent as honor killings. If honor killings were not culturally acceptable, islamic hellholes would implement laws to punish people who murder their daughters and female relatives. Instead, every time the potential victims, females, demand more severe punishment, the male legislators refuse to enact laws that would treat these crimes as premeditated murders instead of crimes of "passion". Muslims are just so damned "passionate", aren't they? Being a filthy infidel, I don't associate passion with homicide except in certain rare cases of a spouse catching a spouse with a lover and even then it's still murder, albeit not premeditated.

Abortion is legal in the U.S. but tens of millions of Americans oppose it. Apparently muslims don't care too much about the unborn babies of their honor killing victims, as many fetuses die with their mothers and many of the mothers are innocent victims of barbaric muslim rapists; you know, those "passionate" sex fiends who just cannot control their perfectly natural sex drive. Any culture that condones unrestrained sexual gratification at the expense of the life of an innocent victim is sick to the core.

"Christian soldier: Can I have some of what you've been smoking? :))"

I am filled with the Holy Spirit of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ!

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to
every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Romans 1:16

These feminists don't hide. They just remain silent. To them, the white Christian male who wouldn't harm them is the enemy, and not the throat-slitting Muslim.

Yep fairuzfan, Islam means treating females like dirt and killing them when they don't want to lead a Muslim life, eh, stupid savage.

Disgusting.

Even animals treat their young better.

Yep fairuzfan, complaining about barbarianism is sloppy. Obviously you see nothing wrong with so-called honor murders. You agree with it because you're a nefarious lying Muslim monster. But then again killing women and infidels isn't murder to a Muslim - it is a duty.

Winston Churchill on Islam
The River War | 1899 | Sir Winston Churchill

How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy.

The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live.

A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men."

Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities, but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it.

No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome.

If Sir Winston Churchill were alive today I am sure that he would retract this:

"Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities"

I'm growing weary of reading this sort of material. We just don't need any more evidence to show that these disgusting people are unfit to infest our free, tolerant and democratic countries. It's long past time that we stopped preaching to the converted and committed ourselves to the task of ridding our lands of these stone age subhumans.
We need to get on with the job of repatriating them to their camel dung emirates; they are of absolutely no use to us here; rather, they constitute a political and demographic threat to our way of life.
Once they are safely back in their caliphates, I'll genuinely wish them luck in becoming civilized; but I'm not going to hold my breath...

Christian Soldier,

I'm afraid your post here doesn't meaningfully deal with either religion in a rigorous, meaningful, comprehensive, and thoughtful manner. Islam certainly has its problems and errors, but has very positive and holy aspects as well. And your grasp of Christianity appears to be seriously impaired by what appears to be a superficial, flimsy, shallow, Reformation-like mentality that doesn't know or care about the One True Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church that has existed continually for 2,000 years, as opposed to makeshift, cut-and-paste heretical Protestant sects that are only a few hundred years old.

By the way, in Catholicism, we traditional Catholics take pride, for the most part, in undertakings like the Inquisition.

I'm afraid your comments about Jews were nothing short of laughable. Mohammed never ordered the extermination of all Jews. That was Adolf Hitler, who, I'm afraid it must be noted, came from a Catholic Christian upbringing. And you talk about preaching the Gospel to Jews as though it was something benevolent and harmless in their eyes. You don't seem to have much understanding of average orthodox Jews who, to be converted to the Gospel, would consider such a thing to be spiritual and nationalist death.

I'm afraid you've got quite a bit of remedial ed ahead of you, soldier, if you want to start taking this subject matter seriously. I suggest you lay off the hospital corners for a while and hit the books and learn from some religious authorities what their respective faiths truly stand for. And, if you're not a Catholic, time to enter the Church - The True Church - once and for all.

Then we have 1683, Darcy, and Champ, a set of cognitively enfeebled lackeys who aren't even capable of figuring out what my religious affiliation or opinion of honor killings are, and it appears wouldn't be able to if the information were plastered on billboards across the United States.

Hey, guys, these are actually important subjects, do you understand that?

Try this on for size: do you realize that the average mainstream Muslim of today, if my travels and encounters are any reasonable representation, actually is more thoughtful, gracious, ethical, and lives a life in closer proxmity to genuine Western truth and values than your wasted, frat-boy, chimp-like existences seem to portray?

Susanp,

I'm not quite sure what you were driving at with your post, but I don't see how the wrongdoing of Muslims or others justifies the wrong doing that we Americans have on our hands. [I'm assuming you're an American from your post, please correct me if I'm wrong.]

I wouldn't get too proud of what we have in the United States. We have a moral mess on our hands. And, no, it isnt' going to be meaningfully corrected. Not so long as we labor and supplicate ourselves under Englightenment-bred liberalism and its self-appointed secular Illuminati, who do not appear to have meaningful care or regard for Christ and His Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

There it is! Thanx.

"How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy."

Absolutely correct. Islam turns men into Madmen.

You know, like "fairuzfan"

lol.

Hey Spirit of 1683 and champ - check out the enfeebled chimp Mohammedan that (and I do mean "that") calls himself "fairuzfan."

You're a lackey with no firing neurons, boy. In short, you're a blithering idiot.

This incident is disgusting. I'm really mad. I put myself in the position of that girl and oh my god. I can't even imagine it.

But I don't think Turkey is the worst in honor killings. They have lots of private TV stations and newspapers. They write everything and we can learn. I guess these killings are much more worse in muslim countries where only state media is allowed like Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia. We learned the death of Neda Soltan from a Youtube video. Maybe we would never know that she died in a protest.

Hey darcy ..

Yeah, he's a joke, and note how fairuz addresses Christian Soldier. He begins nearly every paragragh with, "I'm afraid...I'm afraid...I'm afraid"

---------------------------------------------------

FAIRUZFAN:

Well, you should be afraid, fakeurman, because the majority of posters here have rightly EXPOSED you for the lying mohammedan that you truly are. And I love how you always manage to inadvertently expose yourself and your love for islam with nearly each and every comment, as you have done yet again HERE in your above comment to Christian Soldier:

"Islam certainly has its problems and errors, but has very positive and holy aspects as well."

A Christian would never make this assertion about islam. Never. Ironically, most atheists here wouldn't even make that assertion. No, only a lying mohammedan would ascribe "very positive and holy aspects" to islam, to which there are none. And you claim that there are "VERY" positive and holy aspects, too! ...now that's rich.

You take shots at Robert ...you take shots at other posters ...you take shots at Christianity ...and yet you love and defend islam.

Hmmm.

....hey it doesn't take a rocket scientist, smartass.

The old saying, "give a man enough rope", certainly applies to you, lol ....

Coming to a chicken coop near you any day now, especially with the now imminent ascension of Turkey into the EU.

Additionally ...

Only a hate filled *MOHAMMEDAN* would state this:

"Try this on for size: do you realize that the average mainstream Muslim of today, if my travels and encounters are any reasonable representation, actually is more thoughtful, gracious, ethical, and lives a life in closer proxmity to genuine Western truth and values than your wasted, frat-boy, chimp-like existences seem to portray?"

What planet are you from?

Champ, what a name, do you have any possible clue as to how utterly clueless you are? Seriously, even brain-imparied loon can't begin to adequately describe your intellectual and moral bankruptcy and asinine stupidity.

Well, it's probably a waste of time, but on the chance that there are a few reasonably thoughtful people out there reading, let's try.

A Muslim, of course, would not say Islam has any errors regarding any normative, immutable aspect of it, would they? But are you even able to wrap your feeble brain around that basic concept?

And, yes, any number of folks outside Islam would say that Islam has commendable elements. I know frum, Orthodox rabbis who are Zionist supporters of Israel who have gone so far as to say that Islam, for all its errors, is part of God's plan for the spread of the Noahide Laws. Even I would not go that far.

Do you know what those laws are? Do you even care? Do you even know how to engage in the most basic reflective work of a conscious human being?

And there have been no shots at Christianity from me. None. Show me one criticism of any normative authoritative Christian truth by me. You won't. You can't. Just like you can't refute what I said on this thread regarding Umdat al Salik.

So it's your choice. You can continue to try to be a low-level primate who grunts, groans, jumps around, and beats his chest like something out of Mutual of Omaha. Or you can gradually, painfully, come to realize you were actually created for something more and start acting like it. It's there if you want it.

"It's there if you want it."

An invitation to enable your painfully obvious lies about Robert, other posters and islam? ...no thank you! I choose instead to confront liars like you that make inane statements like this:

"Islam certainly has its problems and errors, but has very positive and holy aspects as well."

Care to enlighten the class as to what's so "VERY positive and holy" about islam? Come on, enlighten us ...we could all use a laugh or two.

You've got the floor ....

Your posts here at Jihad watch reflect someone who is a pompous, egotistical, jackass, bloated with his own self importance.

Furthermore, your comments have a very distinct arrogant self righteousness.

If you are not an Islamo-Fascist as you state. Then at the least you certainly are
an apologist for and sympathizer with their cause.

The Catholic Church has a posture of appeasement and tolerance towards Islam.

Pope Benedict XVI stated on September 17th, 2006 that he “sincerely regrets” having offended Muslims with his reference to an obscure medieval text that characterizes some of the teachings of Islam’s founder as “evil and inhuman.”

On November 30th 2006 Pope Benedict XVI visited the Blue Mosque in Istanbul, Turkey and did the following:

Before entering he removed his shoes.

He "humbly" received “instruction” from Mustafa Cagriche on the basics of Muslim prayer.

The Pope then "meekly" followed the Muslim’s command to turn toward “the Kiblah” – the direction of MECCA. Then he prayed.

He did not make the Sign of the Cross or give any external sign that he was making a Catholic prayer. On the contrary, he imitated the mufti, crossing his hands on his stomach in a classical Muslim prayer attitude known as “the posture of tranquility.” His eyes closed, they prayed together for several minutes.

Finally Pope Benedict implied that Muslims can be saved when they are "good" Muslims.
The above is an abomination to God and to the true Christian believer!

Would Christ go into the Devils house and pray with him?
No never!

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
John 14:6 (King James Version)

In addition, Pope Ratzinger condemned Israel for erecting a security barrier to protect it's citizens from Islamic terrorists and he advocates the establishment of a Terrorist State. Lets not forget that he was a member of the Hitler youth.

Pope criticizes wall, wants Palestinian state
Middle East
May 14, 2009|By Howard Schneider, Washington Post

Bethlehem, West Bank — Pope Benedict XVI criticized Israel's construction of a security barrier through the West Bank and urged a loosening of restrictions on the Gaza Strip on Wednesday, a day of speeches and symbolic appearances that amounted to a running critique of Israeli policies toward the Palestinians.

The pontiff used a full day in the occupied West Bank to highlight some of the main issues on the Palestinian agenda.

"I'm afraid your comments about Jews were nothing short of laughable. Mohammed never ordered the extermination of all Jews."

BTW I suggest that you read The Legacy of Islamic Anti-Semitism by Andrew Bostom.

This book exposes the extreme overt hatred against Jews that is set forth on the pages of that book from Hell,the Qu,ran

"And you talk about preaching the Gospel to Jews as though it was something benevolent and harmless in their eyes."

God declares in His Holy word to:

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mark 16: 15

True Christians are to witness to people from all backrounds and that certainly includes Jews.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Romans 1:16 (King James Version)

"I'm afraid your comments about Jews were nothing short of laughable. Mohammed never ordered the extermination of all Jews."

Next time do some research before you make erroneous statements.

The total extermination of the Jews is a religious obligation incumbent on all Muslims. See links under "Jews - extermination a religious duty"

http://crombouke.blogspot.com/2010/01/everything-you-need-to-know-about-islam.html

Fairuzfan, you wrote:

"I don't see how the wrongdoing of Muslims or others justifies the wrong doing that we Americans have on our hands."

Well, the reverse is often being said here by Robert and posters, but still the most common defense by Muslims and Islam-apologists still revolves around TU QUOQUE-arguments.

And you wrote:
"I wouldn't get too proud of what we have in the United States. We have a moral mess on our hands. And, no, it isnt' going to be meaningfully corrected."

Well, no ideal societies, paradises, heavens-on-earth exist anywhere, so do not compare the US with any of those in your mind. No, compare as best you can, with all their aspects, with their due weight, the 2 EXISTING societies we discuss here, the democratic societies and the Islamic, theocratic, dictatorial societies.

The one is with the manmade laws, the other with so-called "Allah's laws". What 3rd, distinct from these 2, existing government system, would be substantially better than those 2? I don't know one, perhaps the Chinese or Russian model? But these are never advocated by either convinced Muslims or Democrats as far as I know.

I think that many Muslims consider that Islam is providing with Allah's laws the best governing system. Because Allah is wiser than the dumb masses who elect governments who make and keep laws.

And that many Muslims now see America as its principal opponent, dangerous because of it's success and attraction. And that that is why America is so vilified, downgraded all the time, in a lying distorted way.

But America, as democratic societies in general, is unafraid to be criticized, it has an attitude of "bring it on, until the end of time". Whereas many (leading) Muslims have the endgoal, when in power, of shutting opponents up, or down, for good.

I think when comparing the 2, that America's, democratic-enlightenment-inspired "mess" is in much better shape and in much more constant improvement and that it is having a much bigger future chance of that than is the Islamic "mess".

fairuzfan, what a name, do you have any possible clue as to how utterly clueless you are? Seriously, even brain-imparied (sic) loon can't begin to adequately describe your intellectual and moral bankruptcy and asinine stupidity.

Yep, that's you, fairuzacreepafan.

fairuzacreepastan: You can continue to try to be a low-level primate that grunts, groans, jumps around, and beats it's chest like something out of Mutual of Omaha. Which you are.

People - of course we all know that fairuzacreepastan is a lowly jellyfish desperately trying to climb out of the islamic ooze - but, of course it can't. Because the afore-mentioned IS the ooze.

Ignore the human cephalopod. A centipede is more intelligent.

Thanks darcy! :)

...apparently the only point at which fairuz thinks he can hurt me over is my moniker, but he hasn't. O yeah, champ is such an offensive moniker when compared to him: a qualified LIAR.

---------------------------------------------------

FUZ:

We're still waiting for the great teacher to enlighten the class on what's so "VERY positive and holy" about islam. And while you're at it, please share your thoughts on muhammad. Bet he's your perfect-man role model, right? Gee, WWJT?

Answer the question, coward ....

Fairuzfan should reflect on the fact that Hitler was directly inspired by Islam, admired Islam, was assiduously studying a Muslim book about Jihad in the 1920s (and, indeed, had extended meetings with the author, a Muslim from India), and that a terrible lot of Nazis after their defeat in WWII took off for dar al Islam to hide, where they were greeted with open arms, and where one and all they converted to Islam...they took to it like ducks to water. Oh, and the Grand Mufti Haj Husseini spent a lot of time egging on the Germans in that little matter of the Final Solution...he was all in favour.

We know you savage. Its time that hateful scum like yourself were kicked out of the West. Where I live, there are few Muslims and I want it that way. No honor killings, no women-beaters, no killjoys. Your scum aren't welcome.

"fairuzfan" wrote:

By the way, in Catholicism, we traditional Catholics take pride, for the most part, in undertakings like the Inquisition.
...................

Right. Does anyone here believe "fairuzfan" is "a traditional Catholic"?

more idiocy:

I know frum (sic), Orthodox rabbis who are Zionist supporters of Israel who have gone so far as to say that Islam, for all its errors, is part of God's plan for the spread of the Noahide Laws.
...................

"Noahide Laws"—this is closely related to "fairuzfan's" ongoing fantasy that Jews—somewhere—are intent upon founding a "Halacha" state, and executing people for blasphemy and creating graven images.

Graven asks: Does anyone here believe "fairuzfan" is "a traditional Catholic"?

No way! His sole aim is to make Catholics look BAD, and muslims look good.

fairuz is a FAKE. A pretender. A deceiver. A LIAR. Just as his perfect-pervert prophet before him was. He claims to be a Christian / Catholic, but in fact he is a mohammedan through and through! With each passing post he provides more proof in support of this finding

....as if he could succeed in making muslims LOOK good :)

LOL!!!

fairufzan wrote:

"A Muslim, of course, would not say Islam has any errors regarding any normative, immutable aspect of it, would they? But are you even able to wrap your feeble brain around that basic concept?"

A Muslim can lie about anything for the advancement of Islam against Unbelieving Enemies.

"Where I live, there are few Muslims and I want it that way."

Me, too. There shouldn't be any. They should live in their own countries and over-populate the planet there.

Why do you pretend to be a Catholic? You stated:

By the way, in Catholicism, we traditional Catholics take pride, for the most part, in undertakings like the Inquisition.

No Catholic, traditional or otherwise, is proud of the Inquisitions, especially the third one. The Inquisitions were the work of the zealots of the time, not sanctioned by the New Testament or Christian doctrine. Inquisitions are ancient history and the Catholic Church recognized and acknowledged their illictness hundreds of years ago.

I am an American and I am very proud of America despite its many flaws and problems. There is ample moral decay in the world; it is hardly exclusive to America. Without The Enlightenment, America as we know it would not exist. The Constitution would not have been written and we would be the subjects of a monarch or the slaves of a dictator or theocrat. You might crave the "freedom" of islamic law and yearn for the revival of a tyrannical caliphate, but that archaic abomination was crushed long ago and will never rise to power again.

I don't think you are a Catholic or a Christian. I think you're a muslim who like most muslims, wants to be governed by the anachronistic dictates of islamic law, and you would like to impose this abomination on everyone. The nexus of your morality is blind submission to an unknowable, capricious deity and slavish devotion to his temporal alter ego, muhammad. From a Christian perspective, nothing muhammad did, said, or thought was divinely inspired, and islam is a manifesto of perpetual war and world domination. It espouses absolutely nothing related to morality, decency, or human goodness and is antithetical to Christianity and democracy.

Well stated, Susanp! :)

"...fairuzfan, what a name"

Darcy, I don't know for sure, but I wonder if his handle reflects an infatuation with one of the most famous female singers in the Arabic-speaking world by the name of Fairuz

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairuz

Fairuz is of Lebanese origin, and apparently shares the Greek Orthodox faith of her husband.

Clips of Fairuz singing can be found on YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2w5Ag6Y0wLI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ytdzrj_5TiM

Fairuzfan is disingenuous in how he presents himself here, and is well known for the intellectual bullying and browbeating he engages in on these pages. He reminds me somewhat of a kid I used to know who took great delight in pulling the wings off of flies, who perhaps grew up and went to college and writes and speaks nicely - but still likes those flies. He claims to know many Muslims, which would certainly be true if, as I suspect, he comes from the ME (who else would have ever heard of, much less be a fan of, Fairuz), and who are gentle and gentile, but he himself doesn't seem to be a member of that fraternity, Muslim or not, if judged by the way he comports himself on these pages.

"...fairuzfan, what a name"

Darcy, I don't know for sure, but I wonder if his handle reflects an infatuation with one of the most famous female singers in the Arabic-speaking world by the name of Fairuz"

Eastview - I was merely parroting the Muslim's insult to champ in an earlier comment of his.

Your comments are a disappointment, Susanp, as you do not seem to realize all the things you don't know. Are you really so thoughtless to think you know so much up to and including claiming to know my religious beliefs better than I do?

So let's start from the top.

I know my religious beliefs better than you. That should be obvious.

Catholicism has never said inquisitions were completely illicit. That's nonsense. And a number of us serious Catholics are quite serious in standing by them in general principle.

How about reading Thomas Madden's The Truth About the Spanish Inquisition, originally printed in Crisis Magazine in 2003 and now appearing on InsideCatholic.com?

How about reading The Remnant newspaper which you can find online as well? As, yes, The Remnant does get read in the Vatican as well.

By the way, if you're not a Catholic, then the hard fact is that you belong to a schismatic/heretical group that is at odds with the Holy Catholic and Aspostolic Church. If so, then time to end theological amateur hour, and reconcile yourself to The One True Church that Christ founded.

While the United States certainly has positive aspects, there are serious intrinsic flaws in its polity that do not properly allow for an authoritative promulgation and upholding of even Natural Law truths, let alone the obligation of governments to recognize and uphold the True Faith and the True Religion. That last part is official, authoritative Catholic teaching to this day.

Monarchy and theocracy are not all bad. Yes, I said it. I'll say it again: Monarchy and theocracy are not all bad. And if you study the history of Christianity, history of Christian thought, and the official true teachings of Catholicism, you will see that upheld. Have you ever truly studied Thomas Aquinas?

You have a choice: either to go done the path of thoughtless ignorance, or to do some serious reading and thinking, and engage in some reasonable and civil discussion.

There are some people on this site who are thoughtful and willing and worthy to have serious discussions and debates with. Let's hope you want to be one of them.

Your comments are a disappointment, fairuzfan, as you do not seem to realize all the things you don't know. Are you really so thoughtless to think you know so much up to and including claiming to know Judeo-Christian religious beliefs? lol

Poor fasiruzacrapistan - such thoughtless ignorance.

Susanp - you're brilliant, like every Jihad Watcher.

The Mohammedan Troll fasiruzacrapistan is an ignorant Mohammedan idiot. I pity the female that birthed such an ignoramus.

fairufzan is playing a particular game here, a glimpse of which is finally revealed in his last comment: in a nutshell, he's trying to argue that certain aspects of Islam which we routinely condemn here (e.g., it's fanatical puritanism, it's penchant for state-religion fusion in a theocracy) are fine values in the Western tradition too, and he also couches this in language that should appeal to Christian ears. This supposed tradition he then contrasts with the current West, which he condemns (particularly its vanguard, America) with the exception that proves the rule of portions of the modern West he cherryplucks out of their holistic systemic context -- portions that, of course, comport with his values.

Even if he is doing all this (and I think he is), this doesn't necessarily make fairufzan a Muslim: he could just as easily be a Western Leftist for whom an antipathy to the West creates a vacuum that needs to be filled. Such a Leftist has limited choices to fill that vacuum: He can try to cultivate nihilism, but that's only for the rare purist who can sustain that (and even someone who seems to fit that bill, e.g., the author Kurt Vonnegut, cheated by being parasitical upon the Capitalist West through his fame and book sales in order to sustain his nihilism). Or he can indulge in various addictions to distract his mind from the vacuum. Or he can join a cult (Scientology, Moonies, Jim Jones, those other suicidal cultists who were waiting for alien spaceships to take their souls away; etc.). Or he can join the cause of Communism -- for about 80 years an animating and inspiring cause for Leftist dunces everywhere, but now a rather deflated dirigible.

What's left for the Leftist? Islam -- either as a convert, or simply as a friend and helper in a common cause against a common enemy, the West.

"Even if he is doing all this (and I think he is), this doesn't necessarily make fairufzan a Muslim"

It's a Muslim.

I still maintain that fairuz is a muslim that is only pretending to be a Catholic / Christian.

Just last week he stated that he belonged to a "mass-murdering church just like islam", as if trying to create some sort of common ground between islam and Christianity. In fact, you will notice fuz attempting to do this with nearly each comment posted. Plus, fuz rarely sticks to the topic of the headline, but more often than not will use each headline as an OPPORTUNITY to draw parallels between islam and Christianity, as if they are one in the same; and by now most of us know that this is simply NOT true.

IMO, fair's intended goal on JW is to make Catholics / Christians look bad, if not WORSE than muslims, by portraying himself as a hate-filled, half-crazed, follower of Christ; while simultaneously attempting to soften the edges of evil islam.

Quite frankly, he is a lowsy liar, but nevertheless he is still a liar. Surely that we can all agree on.

At any rate he's a clown ....

And Susanp, maybe give him hell for patronizing you like that. What an arrogant ego, eh?

P.S.

"...by portraying himself as a hate-filled, half-crazed, follower of Christ -- WHEN CLEARLY HE ISN'T; while simultaneously attempting to soften the edges of evil islam."

champ and darcy,

I realize what you are saying, but unfortunately, we have non-Muslims in our societies who are willing and capable of thinking and doing everything you described without being Muslim, because they are that alienated from their own West. Another thing that makes me disinclined to think fairufzan is Muslim is that he is, relatively speaking (relative to Muslims, that is), too smart -- and believe me, that does not flatter him, it only imputes an abysmal illiteracy to the Muslim.

Fairuzfan is certainly using the same tired Moral-Equivalence arguments Muslims and Leftist West-Haters are so fond of, and even though clothed in nearly impenetrable academic prose (a form of intellectual bullying and intimidation), it's still not difficult to see through them. I must admit it's one of the more creative and dazzling exhibitions of Rope-de-Doping I've seen in quite some time, though.

Fairuzfan, you are obviously an intellegent man. Why not quit the bullying, show some respect and adapt your style to the audience here, as any good teacher would do, and come clean? I challenged you some time ago to convince us that you really are a Christian, as you aver, and in reply only received a heap of insulting abuse. So I renew my challenge: Convince us that you are a Christian.

"The Holy Catholic and Aspostolic Church. If so, then time to end theological amateur hour, and reconcile yourself to The One True Church that Christ founded."

The Catholic Church is filled with a multitude of false teachings.

They are as follows :

Calling the Priests "Father" is forbidden.

The Catholic church teaches that the priest is to be called "Father", as a religious title of respect. Christians in the first century never called their leaders, "father". This first happened hundreds of years later.

Does Jesus Christ approve of calling the leaders of the church, "Father"?Absolutely not.

And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Matthew 23:9


Veneration of the Virgin Mary.

The Catholic church teaches to pray to God in the name of Mary. This an abominatoin and is completley contray to true Biblical doctrine.

No where in the Bible, which is the authority and foundation for the Christian faith, is there one single verse that states that prayers should be made in the name of Mary.
To the contary the Bible does state the following :

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
John 14:6

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1 Timothy 2:5 

The Catholic church also teaches to praise Mary more than Jesus Christ himself and actually pray to her to have their prayers answered.
There is NO Biblical support for this.

Question, did Mary suffer, shed her blood and die on the cross to save us from our sins? No.

And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Matthew 1:21

Did Mary rise from the dead and ascend back into heaven to sit down on the right hand of God to make intercession for the people God would save?No

But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Hebrews 7:24-25

Mary was the human female that God choose to give birth to the Saviour Jesus Christ. Christ got His human nature from His mother,Mary, that is why he is called the Son of Man and He got His divine nature from His Father, God Almighty!

Rosary Beads graphically represent how Roman Catholics heap 10 times more praise upon Mary than God himself. Of the 59 total beads of the Rosary, 53 beads are "Hail Marys", but only 6 beads are "Our Father". The Rosary most often ends with a "Hail, Holy Queen" prayer to Mary, not God.

Most important true Christians are never to worship or bow down to a statue.
Catholic Churches are filled with statues. This is a clear violation of the Second commandment and is idolatrous worship.

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
Exodus 20:4-6

The Spirit of God does not dwell inside "dead" statues.

Lets now examine the Roman Catholic dogma of Transubstantiation in light of the scriptures. We will see that this doctrine is utterly false for the following reasons:

1.This doctrine destroys the nature of the institution as set forth by God in 1Corinthians 11:23-29. The Lord's Supper is a memorial, a "sign" of something signified.

The false doctrine of Transubstantiation destroys the memorial and the "sign." Jesus had not yet been crucified when He instituted the Lord’s Supper.

Claiming that the bread becomes the literal body of the Lord, and the fruit of the vine becomes His literal blood, "takes away the memorial and the sign and puts the object commemorated, or the thing signified, in its place." (Bulwarks of the Faith, by Foy E. Wallace, p-186)

Did Jesus take His own flesh and blood and give it to the apostles? Since He was present with them, such a thing is not plausible. Christ's very presence makes it both improbable and impossible. Therefore, the elements (the bread and fruit of the vine) of the Last Supper are the same now as they were then.


If the Bible is a Catholic book,
• 1. Why does it condemn clerical dress? (Matt. 23:5-6).
• 2. Why does it teach against the adoration of Mary? (Luke 11:27-28).
• 3. Why does it show that all Christians are priests? (1 Pet. 2:5,9).
• 4. Why does it condemn the observance of special days? (Gal. 4:9-11).
• 5. Why does it teach that all Christians are saints? (1 Cor. 1:2).
• 6. Why does it condemn the making and adoration of images? (Ex. 20:4-5).
• 7. Why does it teach that baptism is immersion instead of pouring? (Col. 2:12).
• 8. Why does it forbid us to address religious leaders as "father"? (Matt. 23:9).
• 9. Why does it teach that Christ is the only foundation and not the apostle Peter? (1 Cor. 3:11).
• 10. Why does it teach that there is one mediator instead of many? (1 Tim. 2:5).
• 11. Why does it teach that a bishop must be a married man? (1 Tim. 3:2, 4-5).
• 12. Why is it opposed to the primacy of Peter? (Luke 22:24-27).
• 13. Why does it oppose the idea of purgatory? (Luke 16:26).
• 14. Why is it completely silent about infant baptism, instrumental music in worship, indulgences, confession to priests, the rosary, the mass, and many other things in the Catholic Church?

The purpose of this post is to put forth truth. If there are members of the Catholic church here at Jihad Watch I encourage you to research this information.

In no way is this a personal attack on you.

May the Grace of God and the Peace of Christ be with you.

Christian Soldier


CS, I would respectfully suggest that this site is not the appropriate place to engage in anti-Catholic polemics. I realize that you're responding to fairuzfan's taunts, but you went beyond that to engage in a bit of evangelism and Catholic taunting. Tsk Tsk. Please, not here. There are other sites for that. Thanks.

My post was for the sole purpose of refuting fairuzfan's erroneous statement regarding
the Catholic church.

It was necessary to do this in a through way.

I am sorry if you understood this to be "Catholic taunting". It certainly was not.

The statements made are fully supported by true Biblical doctrine.
They are not my personal opinions.

I am not against individual Catholics.

What I am opposed to are the many false teachings of the Catholic church.

It is clear now why fairuzfan has a total misunderstanding of what Islam truly is.

The Catholic Church has a posture of appeasement and tolerance towards this dark evil.

The most formidable weapon that we have to combat the evil and wickedness of Islam is the word of God.

When the Israelites went into battle they went in the power and strength of the Lord.

As someone who Ministers to our soldiers, having faith and trust in God is of the utmost importance for our troops especially when they are going into battle against this barbaric enemy.

The LORD is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? the LORD is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?
Psalm 27: 1

Though I walk in the midst of trouble, thou wilt revive me: thou shalt stretch forth thine hand against the wrath of mine enemies, and thy right hand shall save me.
Psalm 138:7

May God bless you with His grace and peace and strengthen you with His power and might.In Jesus name.Amen

Christian Soldier

Thank you, Christian Soldier ...I found your information very helpful in deepening my understanding regarding said poster and his purported religion. And the jury is still out on whether or not he is in fact a muslim; a muslim apologist, certainly. I'm not entirely convinced that he isn't a muslim, so at this point I prefer to error on the side of caution.

But your above information might also explain this oh-so-smart comment made by one ascribed intelligent man:

"Islam certainly has its problems and errors, but has very positive and holy aspects as well."

To date, fairuz still hasn't clarified what is so "very positive and holy" about islam. Guess my question is too harrrrrd for one so smart.

---------------------------------

And just because his sentencing constructs Wow us once in a while, does not mean that fairuz is one smart guy. We should pay closer attention to what he is proposing -- which oftentimes is incredibly stupid, arrogant, and downright dangerous. I for one am not impressed by his fantastic use of nouns, pronouns, adjectives, adverbs, and other grammatical overkill, not when he is touting so many stupid and dangerous IDEAS regarding islam, et al, due in part to his pc and dhimmi blindness. Many of his inane comments are simply unprecedented, and imo, they are very dangerous.

As the fulcrum of his supposed refutation of fairufzan, Christian Soldier picks the absolutely least objectionable (ostensible) aspect of fairufzan. I.e., fairufzan's alleged Catholicism is the very, very last thing we should be worried about. Much, much higher on the list of our concern is his Islamophiliac Leftism, if not his crypto-Islam.

I don't think reviving the polemics of the internecine Wars of Religion which wracked the West for a good century or more from the night of Luther's Turmerlebnis forward -- even if is the best way to meet the challenge of Islam today.

Correction: delete the "-- even if" from the second paragraph of my last comment.

"Much, much higher on the list of our concern is his Islamophiliac Leftism, if not his crypto-Islam.'

Agreed! ...as always, your insights are invaluable, Hesp :)

"As the fulcrum of his supposed refutation of fairufzan, Christian Soldier picks the absolutely least objectionable (ostensible) aspect of fairufzan. I.e., fairufzan's alleged Catholicism is the very, very last thing we should be worried about"

Is is quite possible that Catholic Church's posture on Islam has influenced said poster in a negative way. Therefore my above mentioned commentary if relevant.

To some people the erroneous teachings of Catholicism are disturbing and troubling.

As I stated in a previous post here our faith and trust in God and the Saviour
Jesus Christ is of the utmost importance in our battle against the dark evil of Islam.

May the grace of God be with you.

Christian Soldier

Typo correction.

"above mentioned commentary is relevant."

Typo correction

"It is quite possible"

"Many of his inane comments are simply unprecedented, and imo, they are very dangerous."

Agreed, those that have the same misunderstanding of the true nature of Islam as fairuzfan has, pose a great danger do to the fact that this type of thinking has helped
the Islamic-Fascist agenda.

Indeed, Christian Soldier! :)

Soldier: Your comments regarding Catholicism are way off base. You will not be able to support your position. If you'd like to discuss offline, I'm certainly willing to do so.

And while it's nice for you to say this is nothing personal, it's rather hard to accept in light of nonsensical labels like 'American hating coward'.

Hesperado: I don't play games. It's astonishing to see how much ignorant and arrogant presumption you seem to engage in regarding somebody like me.

I'm not a Leftist. When was the last time a Leftist called for Christian theological/state fusion? Seriously, do you think about things like this before you write them? If we want to bandy such terms about, which I really don't but you apparently are obsessed with, then, in relative terms, that is, you are the unprincipled Leftist as I am considerably more conservative and traditional than you are.

The West has traditionally had fusion of church and state. The Catholic Church still authoritatively teaches it in its very basic form to this day. No, the Thirty Years War did not definitively disprove it in some manner. And, no, there is no systemic whole to 'modern' Western thought. Nothing based on religious indifferentism, that the must important and ultimately crucial questions, norms, and concepts of the human condition are of no concern to the state, can have a viable and coherent systemic basis.

And, naturally, one just has to look at the demographic suicide of the West as just one example of the intrinsic flaws at work. It will be Orthodox Jews, faithful Muslims, traditional Catholics, and other rigorous Christians who are populating and will, to turn a phrase, inherit the Earth, not those who elevate Locke and Jefferson to the center of the religious temples of their mind.

If I'm a 'Leftist', then so are Christopher Ferrara, Michael Matt, the late Michael Davies, Brian McCall, John Rao, Timothy Cullen, and a host of Catholic others. Have you read them? Do you even care? Or have you summarily consigned them to the dustbin with Mahmoud Shaltut?

Instead of engaging in this reflexive exercise of obfuscation and deflection, how about owning up to the fact that you have yet to refute anything I've said factually about Islam? On this VERY THREAD, I corrected Mr. Spencer's comments about a passage regarding Umdat al Salik. Why not correct my correction, if I'm so wrong? Apparently you don't because you can't.

"Soldier: Your comments regarding Catholicism are way off base. You will not be able to support your position."

My post on this topic as you say "are way off base". This is incorrect. They are fully supported by the Bible, Gods Holy word which is the sole authority and foundation the Christian Faith, not the erroneous teachings of any denominational Church, Catholic or otherwise.

I truly hope that you will research this carefully.

I am not against individual Catholics.

What I am opposed to are the many false teachings of the Catholic church.

CS, your comments regarding the Bible are simply not true.

You cannot point to any authentic Christian figure during the first 1,400 years of Christianity who held such a view, namely that the Bible is the sole authority of the Christian faith. Igantius of Antioch didn't, Augustine didn't, Chrysostom didn't. Anselm didn't, Aquinas didn't. None

And it can be logically proven. Please track with me here: if the Bible is the sole authority of Christian faith, then the Bible ITSELF must say it. If it doesn't, then you had to go OUTSIDE the Bible in order to come up with this belief, which ontologically blows your whole argument to smithereens.

The only support you can possibly have for such a claim is if the Bible says it. The hard fact is that it doesn't. No, 2 Timothy 3:16 does not say it, contrary to fatuous claims put forth by some Protestants. And the lack of full, necessary details on Old Testment Mosaic law even provides further proof. Deuteronomy's command on the slaughter and consumption of meat is but one example.

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“A national treasure...The acclaimed scholar of Islam.”
Frank Gaffney, Center for Security Policy

“I am indeed honored to call him my friend.”
Brad Thor, novelist

“A top American analyst of Islam....A serious scholar...I learn from him.”
Daniel Pipes

“A brilliant scholar and writer.”
Douglas Murray

"One of my best teachers."
Ashraf Ramelah, Voice of the Copts

“Thank God there’s at least one man with balls left in the West.”
Kathy Shaidle, Five Feet of Fury

“I read people like [Mark Steyn] and Bob Spencer and the rest of them, and I say, ‘Boortz, you’re pretending you’re an author. These people really are. They really write some entertaining, some standup stuff.’”
Neal Boortz

“Robert Spencer is the Stephen King of Jihad.”
Chris Gaubatz, Muslim Mafia

“Armed with facts and fearlessness, Spencer stands up for Western civilization.”
Michelle Malkin

“Widely read in conservative foreign policy circles.”
New York Times

“Widely read in many quarters in Washington.”
Washington Post

“A canny operative who likely has the inside track on the State Department’s Middle East affairs desk should the tea party win the White House.”
New York Magazine

“A hero of the American right.”
Karen Armstrong

"The leading anti-Islamic intellectual in the United States....The go-to Islam expert for the right wing."
Salon Magazine

“Robert Spencer is an Edward Said turned upside down.”
Stephen Suleyman Schwartz

“One of the nation's most notorious Islamophobes.”
Hamas-linked CAIR

"Geller and Spencer are probably the most important propagandizing Islamophobes in the world. These people's voices speak very loudly — not just here in the United States but overseas."
Heidi Beirach, Southern Poverty Law Center

“Satanic ignoramus.”
Khaleel Mohammed

“The Likud anti-Christ.”
Dar al-Hayat newspaper (Saudi Arabia)

“Zionist Crusader, missionary of hate, counter-Islam consultant.”
Al-Qaeda’s Adam Gadahn, “Azzam the American”



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