Associated Press laments "provocation" of Muslims in Europe

The author asks: "Should the immigrants adopt the values of their adoptive land -- or, to the contrary, should society change to accommodate the newcomers who now form part of it?"

Liberal democracies depend on the premise that there are unalienable human rights that a government cannot violate and retain a legitimate right to rule. To want to defend that concept is far from the extreme, rabid, reactionary position that it is portrayed as here -- even (horrors!) at the risk of being impolite. You don't defend your values by... not defending them.

"Culture clash: European art provokes Muslims," by Michael Weissenstein for the Associated Press, March 14:

LONDON - With the West locked in conflicts across the Muslim world, why would anyone throw fuel on the fire?

Yeah, you'll want to read this one sitting down.

A small group of Europeans have been doing just that -- provoking death plots and at least one murder by turning out art that derides the Prophet Muhammad and the Quran in the name of Western values.
Behind the scenes is something bigger: a rising European unease with a rapidly growing Muslim minority, and the spreading sense that the continent has become a front in a clash of civilizations.
Recent events -- including surprising electoral success by an anti-Islamic Dutch party, moves to ban veils in France and minarets in Switzerland, and arrests in Ireland and the U.S. this week in an alleged plot to kill a Swedish cartoonist -- are signs of the rising tensions.
Swedish artist Lars Vilks says he was defending freedom of speech when he produced a crude black-and-white drawing of Muhammad with a dog's body in 2007. Authorities say that set him in the crosshairs of an assassination plot by extremists including Colleen LaRose, a 46-year-old Muslim convert from Pennsylvania who dubbed herself "Jihad Jane."
"I'm actually not interested in offending the prophet. The point is actually to show that you can," Vilks said in a recent interview with The Associated Press. "There is nothing so holy you can't offend it."
The Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten also said it was defending free speech in 2005 when it printed 12 cartoons of Muhammad, one in a bomb-shaped turban, setting off protests and the torching of Western embassies in several Muslim countries. And bottle-blond Dutch populist politician Geert Wilders said he was promoting European values by producing Fitna, a 15-minute film that lays images of the Sept. 11 attacks alongside verses from the Quran. The film was shown in Britain's House of Lords this month.
The cases are extreme, but millions of moderate Europeans also are re-examining the meaning of the liberal values widely cherished across the continent. How, many are asking, should a liberal society respectfully deal with immigrants who often espouse illiberal values? Should the immigrants adopt the values of their adoptive land -- or, to the contrary, should society change to accommodate the newcomers who now form part of it? [...]
Jan Hjarpe, a professor emeritus of Islamic studies at Lund University in southern Sweden, near Vilks' home, said the deliberate provocations were helpful to Islamic extremists, who have been hunting for targets that would win them popularity in the Muslim world.

Translation: Fighting back causes "extremism."

"It has had almost no effect on the Muslim community in Sweden, who regard it as not very interesting," he said. "These threats against him have to do with extremist groups that want something to react to."
Denmark's Prophet Muhammad cartoons emerged from a discussion in 2005 about whether Islam was being treated with special sensitivity among Danish artists for fear of reprisals from extremists. Jyllands-Posten said the project was a way to challenge self-censorhip [sic] and show that Muslims, too, must be ready to put up with mockery in a society based on democracy and free speech. [...]
In light of the abysmal record of the Dutch toward the Jewish population during the Nazi occupation, when some 70 percent were deported and killed, it was considered impolitic to show resentment against another ethnic group. But that didn't mean the resentment wasn't there. It was only in 2002 when the populist politician Pim Fortuyn began speaking openly against immigration and the threat to the Dutch identity that people felt free to voice their anger. Fortuyn's popularity soared, and the party he founded was hugely popular even after Fortuyn himself was assassinated (by an animal rights activist).
Successive governments clamped down on immigration and forced new arrivals to learn about the Dutch language and culture in an attempt to integrate them into mainstream society.

Oh, the humanity!

Wilders is derided by his enemies as a neo-fascist but has been able to turn his provocations into political success: his Freedom Party winning in the town of Almere and coming in second in The Hague this month the only two races it ran out of 394 cities and towns that elected local councils.

Sorry, AP.

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How much of this idiocy must we be subject to until the cavalry -- that is, sensible people, people capable of thought -- arrive on the scene to tell the truth, and tell it, one hopes, as convincingly and even seductively as they can?

"Successive governments clamped down on immigration and forced new arrivals to learn about the Dutch language and culture in an attempt to integrate them into mainstream society."

For a more detailed description of what the Dutch government might demand of those hoping to enjoy the great privilege of Dutch citizenship, see here:

http://www.newenglishreview.org/custpage.cfm?frm=3420&sec_id=3420

How is it that the *Associated Press* understands *nothing* about freedom of speech and its defense?

graveninamge: How is it that the *Associated Press* understands *nothing* about freedom of speech and its defense?

Did you mean Arabic Press? I'm sure they're about to make it official and be renamed any day now.

http://ethxblog.blogspot.com/2010/03/race-and-god-people-you-are-one-you.html

A must read Ryerson University commission report on racism.
Muslims think they are being discriminated against, Atheists tell them to they choose to follow the muslim ideology, whereas blacks and others didn't choose their skin color. It's a awesome brakedown.

" It was only in 2002 when the populist politician Pim Fortuyn began speaking openly against immigration and the threat to the Dutch identity that people felt free to voice their anger. Fortuyn's popularity soared, and the party he founded was hugely popular even after Fortuyn himself was assassinated (by an animal rights activist)."

Nope,sorry again A.P.

Fortuyn killed 'to protect Muslims'
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/netherlands/1425944/Fortuyn-killed-to-protect-Muslims.html

"I'm actually not interested in offending the prophet. The point is actually to show that you can," Vilks said."

Exactly. Who, besides the brainwashed Barbarians, gives a flying about their flim-flam man?

"Behind the scenes is something bigger: a rising European unease with a rapidly growing Muslim minority, and the spreading sense that the continent has become a front in a clash of civilizations."

This is like someone on the Titanic writing a story about how "there is water rushing in all around," "some people think that the boat sinking."

It's utterly wrong to compare anti-Semitism to Islamophobia, as does AP here. The Nazis didn't persecute Jews because of their religion but out of pure racism. On the other hand Mohammedans are no ethnic group, but adherents of a fascist, Nazi ideology. But there are so many people in Europe who don't understand that. It's sickening!

It goes without saying that barbarians have to assimilate to the superior culture they chose to live in, by no means can Europeans give up only an inch of their precious values in order to be polite to a bunch of lunatic morons.

Veils and burqas e.g. are totally alien to French culture, why should the French accept that sort of rubbish? Whoever doesn't like our way of life, feel free to leave, we won't shed a tear, if you go, to the contrary.

Cartoons and caricatures, making fun of holy things are also part of European culture, no Mohammedan ever complained about the movie "Life of Brian", so there is no reason why they shouldn't accept "The Satanic Verses" and the Danish cartoons, as long as they live Europe.

When you're invited for dinner it is considered to be very impolite if you tell your host he's got to re-decorate his house because you deem his furniture not appropriate. If you don't like it, keep your trap shut and leave. That's my message to all Mohammedans.

Muslims aren't offended by cartoons of Mohammed. If they were, this cartoon would offend them, but it does not offend them:

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/5556/1144/1600/muhammad.3.jpg

Muslims live with it as comfortably as I do. Muslims are only offended by cartoons when they're told to be offended, at which point they fly into a false fury and destroy things to get something in turn. It's a game Muslims play. The cartoon above is offensive, and they do not care because it is offensive only. They can cry about it all they like, but nothing will come of it. No government will do anything about it. It's just a cartoon. So Muslims pretend to ignore it, which is damned difficult to do given that its pretty famous and has been for a number of years now. The selective rage should be equally famous, but most people would rather play a game with our lives and cultures, pretending that they care about Muslim sensitivities, a form of emotional blackmail and social engineering. Cartoon rage is bullshit.

Should the immigrants adopt the values of their adoptive land...?

Pardon my French, but s*** yes! If they don't want ASSIMILATION (integration isn't anywhere near enough), they can all stay in/return to the wonders of Egypt, Morocco, Anatolian Arabia, Libya, Porkistan, Yemen, Bangladesh, Somalia or whatever mahoundian dunes or caves that they, or their parents, came from.

And if Michael Weissenstein's doesn't think that large numbers of mahoundians in the West are a problem, perhaps his readers could be reminded that it's mahoundians, and mahoundians only, that move to the West with no intention whatsoever to become productive members of the societies of their adopted countries for the most part. As German Bundesbank's official Thilo Sarrazin once said (and he was mercilessly criticized for speaking such politically-incorrect truths about immigrants in his native country):

We have to stop speaking of “the” immigrants. We have to consider for once the different immigrant groups. The Vietnamese: The parents can barely speak German and sell cigarettes or have a kiosk. But then the second-generation have consistently better grades and a better rate of success on university entrance exams than [native] Germans. The East Europeans: Ukrainians, Belarussians, Polish, and Russians tend to show the same result. They are willing to integrate, adapt quickly, and have better-than-average academic success. The German-Russians [i.e., Russian immigrants of ostensibly Germanic origin] have big problems in the first and to some extent also in the second generation. Thereafter, everything goes smashingly, since they still have the old-Germanic conception of work. As soon as the linguistic obstacles have been cleared away, they have higher rates of success on university entrance exams than others. The same goes for East Asians, Chinese, and Indians.

Among the core groups from the former Yugoslavia, one sees something like “Turkish” problems. The absolute worst results are found among the Turkish group and the Arabs. Even in the third generation, a great many still have no decent knowledge of German, many have no high school diploma, and only a small part manage to qualify for university. Everyone who wants to integrate has to pass through our system. In the first place, he must learn German.

Of course, in order to try to prevent such plain truth from being openly discussed and heard across Germany, Sarrazin was ganged upon by the usual racism-screaming mahound enablers that, due to the fact that they will never openly admit that what they truly want is the destruction of Western countries by mahoundians, shut down debate on the matter by using the R-word.

"It's utterly wrong to compare anti-Semitism to Islamophobia, as does AP here. The Nazis didn't persecute Jews because of their religion but out of pure racism."

But it is correct to compare Islam itself to Nazism and anti-Semitism! Everything is completely upside down. Muhammad and Islam have done more to crush the Jews than Hitler. And it is only the truly evil whitewashing of the history and doctrines of Islam that allows them to continue to present themselves as the new "Jews" being persecuted. This is like a rapist complaining about how the victim is not being nice enough to him. If nothing else happens except that the truth about Islam is told and known by the average citizen, Europe can still save itself.

I think Michael Weissenstein is just angling for the coveted title of Dhimmi of the Year. I'll gladly nominate him.

Couldn't agree more. The way they try to portray themselves as victims is simply disgusting.

"...by no means should Europeans give up even an inch of their precious values in order to be polite to a bunch of lunatic morons."

I like the way you put that. How true, how true, including the "lunatic morons" part. That they are. Islam did that to them.

"The growth of AP Television News (APTN), since its launch in 1994, is a tremendous success story. AP Television News is now the leading supplier of video news content, distributed via our satellite network, the Global Video Wire (GVW), to the world's broadcasters."
http://www.aptn.com/80256FEE0057BF4E/(httpPages)/34E6738A30651CC080256FFD003AFB0D?OpenDocument

"However, there is another significant part of their business model that affects the rest of the business. While most of the world takes news pictures with minimal interpretation beyond editing, the Arab Gulf States have asked for and receive a different and far more expensive service. These states pay for a complete news report service including full editing and voice overs from known journalists. The news organizations in the Arab countries don’t do anything (beyond verify that they are appropriate for local tastes) before broadcast.

What this means is that while there are around 50 people producing news pictures for the whole world working in Camden at any time, there are a further 50 Arabic speaking staff producing finished stories exclusively for the Arab states of the gulf. This has a tremendous effect on the whole feel of the building as these two teams feed pictures and people back and forth and sit in adjacent work areas. The slant of the stories required by the Gulf States has a definite effect on which footage is used and discarded. This affects both the Gulf newsroom and the main global newsroom."

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/22055_LGF_Exclusive-_How_Much_Does_It_Cost_to_Buy_Global_TV_News

From APTN's website --

"We have the leading Entertainment and Sports news services and the only customised, international news broadcast service for Middle East clients."
http://www.aptn.com/80256FEE0057BF4E/(httpPages)/34E6738A30651CC080256FFD003AFB0D?OpenDocument

The paradox of tolerance: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. — In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law, and we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal, in the same way as we should consider incitement to murder, or to kidnapping, or to the revival of the slave trade, as criminal. ”

Karl Popper "The Open Society and it’s Enemies"

The whole idea of 'multiculturalism' is a paradox, if you follow it through. Once every culture start adopting other cultures, it is just a matter of time until there is no 'one' culture anywhere and 'multiculturalism' becomes 'uni-culturalism', or the lack thereof.

Think about it this way: if you have different colors on a platter, and in the name of equality, you take each one and mix it with others. What you end up with, is a platter of groups with the same color, (which is the blend of all of them.)

What happens in Europe however, is not multiculturalism, but a process of rooting islam by the authorities. You have the protection of an ideology, against all others. Like protecting a small bush, that has the potential of taking over all other plants around it when it grows.

Why on earth would any civilized host-country want to accept muslim immigrants anyway? Is there even just ONE good quality they bring to the party? It's an invitation to anarchy, an exercise in cultural suicide. And the answer is so easy: STOP MUSLIM IMMIGRATION NOW! Duh!

Look at almost every AP article coming from the Muslim world...and you'll read the name of a Muslim stringer on the by-line....and AP's status as a shill for Islam is more problematic than many might think. As the networks and newspapers cut staff in the desperate bid to restore profitability, they are relying more and more on news agencies like the AP for their international coverage.

Essentially, through the Associated Press, AFP & Reuters, Islam has captured control over the Western media.

"Swedish artist Lars Vilks says he was defending freedom of speech when he produced a crude black-and-white drawing of Muhammad with a dog's body in 2007."

Crude drawing of muhammad? I beg to differ. The only thing crude about this drawing is seeing that ugly mug on a dogs beautiful body. This is an insult to dogs!

"A small group of Europeans have been doing just that -- provoking death plots and at least one murder by turning out art that derides the Prophet Muhammad and the Quran in the name of Western values"

The West needs to continue promoting its values understanding that Western values in and of themselves are not provocative.

Western values exist after generations of men and women who looked inward and fearlessly sought to build a greater civilization.

First by "removing the mote from their own eye" and boldly applying what was learned, this is called enlightenment.

The West enjoys freedom that is unheard of in Dar al Islam. That doesn't mean that we in the West should adjust our culture or behavior because our freedoms "disturb" them.

If Muslims choose to live in Dar al Harb (The Free West), them they must, by mandatory compulsion if necessary, learn the language, and become productive members of the society.

Parallel societies and cultures within a free society that reject the foundations, laws and culture should never be tolerated.


"Jan Hjarpe, a professor emeritus of Islamic studies at Lund University in southern Sweden, near Vilks' home, said the deliberate provocations were helpful to Islamic extremists, who have been hunting for targets that would win them popularity in the Muslim world."
""It has had almost no effect on the Muslim community in Sweden, who regard it as not very interesting," he said. "These threats against him have to do with extremist groups that want something to react to.""


In a word...bullshit.

Exercising ones right to free speech is simply that. The so called "extremists" should never be given the power of intimidation over a free people. Put them in jail, execute them,deport them.

Hold them accountable for their behavior.

"...the spreading sense that the continent has become a front in a clash of civilizations." AGAIN!

Whom shall the next Charles Martel, Vlad Tepez be?

Oops. I know how how to spell 'Tepes' but the cat doesn't. She's competing with the keyboard again.

Islam cannot withstand ridicule. That's why Muslims are trying to legislate global 'respect' for their death-cult. Rational criticism has no effect on pre-rational savages, and appealing to common decency is useless against a mob of predatory barbarians. However ridicule really punctures their inflated egos.

As Sun Tzu said: 'If your enemy is temperamental, irritate him.' More here http://crombouke.blogspot.com/2010/01/ridicule-mockey-and-satire-best-weapons.html

AP's message: commit political suicide in the West via 'multiculturalism'.

The multicultural' version of historical propaganda is that the colonial experience undertaken by Western countries is to be wholly deprecated, and the nationalist/independence movements involved should be applauded. For example, the 'multiculturalist' untrue version of history in India implies that India was some wonderful, prosperous place in the 18th century with no problems of caste, inter-religious conflict, or Islamic imperialism before the British arrived.

And updating, such 'multiculturalists' now expect the populations of the West to accept mass, unlimited immigration, notably from Islamic countries like Pakistan, Afghanistan, Somalia and Turkey, because to resist would be 'unfair' to the immigrants who should have the right to colonise us, and to impose ideeologies such as Islam on our societies.

The AP not only provides us with phoney 'news', it tells us to surrender to Islam!


I couldn't agree more. More provocation is needed, and plenty of it, and the will to stand up to and answer Muslim lies when they inevitably attack because of it.

People used to immigrate to join in a society they admired. Mom, Apple Pie, Baseball, Hot Cars, Drive In Movies, Success, Liberty.
Some still do. muslims immigrate to infiltrate. Democrats invite those that have no connection to our past, the sacrifices that were made to make the country what it is, in order to retain power. It's called amnesty.
Multiculturalism divides and makes conquering easier.
The rise of the Ignorami.

islam is a lie and
Truth is killing it.

Jihadwatch commenter Stephen A55 once brilliantly pointed out that we're lucky that Hitler, unlike mahound, didn't declare itself (not himself) a prophet... Had that 20th-Century version of mahound done that, we'd all get blasted by the PC MC surrender monkeys for our "naziphobia" and "racism" if we criticized nazism, just as they do to critics of mahoundianism (but using the terms "racism" and the utterly baseless and bogus "islamophobia" instead.)

Why did the Japanese attack Pearl Harbor, when all they needed to do was to show up and demand citizenship? The new method of invading a country: Immigration facilitated by PC demands. Very efficient, really.

Proves once again that Bernie Goldberg's description of the mainstream media (MSM) as the lamestream media (LSM) is richly deserved.

Hello,

I have only been here for 14 of your blog days. That your opinion of muslims is low is obvious, but I wonder whether the people here do any "grading" of muslims from different countries.

Susanp for example said of somali muslims and I quote "Somali savages are among the least desirable of all muslims, totally incompatible with American values. They are a scourge and have no interest in adapting to new ideas or American culture. They are provacatuers, barely civilized yet confident of their moral superiority because they are muslims. They are the most vile, disgusting, disruptive and despicable creatures to ever set foot in this country".

But how do Solamis rate against muslims from other countries in your opinion:

India, Pakistan, Saudi, Iran, Afghanistan, Somalia, Sudan, Nigeria,Egypt, Israel,Palistaine, (or add country of your choice).

Which of these are more preferable than others? It is a genuine question because I am curious and here to learn.

The author asks: "Should the immigrants adopt the values of their adoptive land -- or, to the contrary, should society change to accommodate the newcomers who now form part of it?"

A stupid question deserves a stupid answer...But I can't think of one at the moment...Give me a week or two and I will come up with something just as dumb...

Multiculturalism, Diversity, and the Decline and fall of the West.

In a normal society, the one we had not so long ago, based on a common culture and language, one has one’s share of virtues and vices. This is normal, and is true for all societies – you get what you deserve. In a multicultural society though, particularly the one we have, the imported virtues of an imported people, are hardly any, or we have them anyway, but the vices that they bring, are far too many. The more diverse the imported cultural group, the more varied and diverse are the vices. In addition, they are of a sort that our society is unable to comprehend, the ones from Islam being the most retrograde - like polygamy, honour killings, FGM, murder those who criticise Islam, etc.

In effect, in a multicultural society, the host's virtues are diluted or suppressed, while in exchange we have all the diverse vices, and hence the crimes, of diverse imported groups. If we import the entire world, we do not get all the virtues of the rest of the world, but all the vices of the rest of the world. Just looking at present day Britain or any Western country, must make this obvious,

This is one of the reasons that our police and judiciary are unable to cope, as there are no norms that are acceptable or unacceptable. It is the reason why our education system is failing, or has failed. It is leading to a breakdown of society, unable to defend itself at home or abroad, as it has no idea what it is, and what it is supposed to defend. Just as flies wax strong and prosper over a decaying carcass, so it is that "Diversity" managers prosper over a dying multicultural failed nation. Celebration of cultural diversity is thus a celebration of the death of a nation, the equivalent of Turkeys celebrating Christmas.

Even by East African standards, Somalis are the pits. Somali society is essentially a highway robber society with drugs. Most travellers to that part of the world have written of the contempt and hostility of even East Africans, such as Kenyans and Ethiopians, for Somalis.

As Somalia deteriorated from nothing to below nothing, even highway robbers could not make a living in Somalia. So they have fled to the West, which in its unbounded idiocy has accepted these people.

So we have, in the Great Multicultural Sweepstakes, imported hundreds of thousands of Somalis into Europe, without bothering to find out if they were even remotely civilised? Then we are surprised in the rise in criminal activity even beyond what one expects from Muslims.

If Somalis so trashed their own nation that even Somalis dont like it, then what are they gpoing to do here, to an Infidel nation they have no loyalty to. The vast majority of Somalis in the UK are on Welfare, supplementing it with criminal enterprise.

Barcode, A good starting point would be to look at www.truthtube.com; then 'google' the film Fitna made by a Dutch politician Geert Wilders currently on trial in the Netherlands for making this honest and truthful film. These are the tip of the iceberg of violence perpetrated in the name of islam all over the world with the intent on taking over the world, their words, not mine. The so-called peace-loving muslims are currently working hard to bring the soft jihad into the West by infiltrating western governments, school systems, converting prisoners to islam, running madrassas under the guise of schools, hospitals etc. raising their objections to change western society into islamic societies, by force if necessary - see, 9/11, The London Bombings, the Madrid train bombings, Afghanistan, Nigeria and many other countries where this is being done at this very moment. Keep reading and listening and you will very quickly learn, be surprised and scared by what has been going on under your very nose. www.middleastforum.com. www.islamineurope.com. www.antimullah.com. just for starters. A very concerned Brit.

Great Read

Barack Hussein Obama vs Israel

The manifold organs of the ObamaMedia are abuzz with outrage over what they are calling Israel's "insult" to the United States. But what was the nature of this awful and outrageous insult? Did Israeli officials pull off V.P. Biden's rug to show off his bald head underneath. Did they ask him why the suit of his pants is so shiny. Did they make him sit at the kiddie table?

More to the point did Israeli TV air calls for a Jihad against America, as Palestinian Arab TV did? Did Israel name a square after the murderer of an American photographer, as the Palestinian Authority did? Did an Israeli Anchorman do a skit in blackface during Obama's visit, as a Turkish anchorman did during Obama's visit to Turkey? Are Israeli religious institutions issuing Fatwahs against America, as Al Azhar University, which Obama visited and spoke at, has done? Are Israeli leaders funding terrorism against America, as the Saudi King, before whom Obama bowed, does?

http://sultanknish.blogspot.com/2010/03/barack-hussein-obama-vs-israel.html

You're right Mr Barcode: the opinion of muslims around here is low - very low.

But, please, dump your pathetic attempt to trick JW-ers into posting statements which might be constrrued as racist. That muslims are held in such low regard in this forum is based on their beliefs, and their acting upon those beliefs. It's not a matter of race or nationality, not to folks around here anyway.

I notice that you've stopped informing us (rather unconvincingly) that you're not a muslim. Finally, tacit admission that you are?

droptheveil - thank you for the info and I will be checking those links out. I think that peaceful muslims are as worried as you and I on allowing some of the less desirables to my country.

Incidentially I have pencilled "darcy" on my stupid list.

All she wants to do is talk about "troll this and troll that" rather than providiing any input to the discussion. She really DOES waste cyber space.

I thought the question that I asked was perfectly valid and I have a willingness to learn; I fail to see how this gets "dirt" on this fine site and how this is pandering to the troll.

People, with the greatest dignity, IMHO Darcy is the one to avoid rather than me, thank you to all who take the time and effort to provide sensible effort allowing me to learn, it is most appreciated.

"Incidentially (sic)I have pencilled (sic) "darcy" on my stupid list."

lol! Hey - can you spell, you stupid Moooslim?

"droptheveil" - you bought right into the Mohammedan UK troll. Tsk.

Right - For many years I've provided "no input" into JW discussions! lol! Barcode, you don't have a camel to sit on.

Again, anyone buying into Barcode's "I'm here to learn" crap is falling right in to Mohamet's "War is deception" tactic.

"Barguest," above, you are correct in your savvy evaluation of the Muslim troll. Don't be fooled by Barcode!

"Oops. I know how how to spell 'Tepes' but the cat doesn't. She's competing with the keyboard again."

Loved your adorable post, Jim!

And your serious question of "Who will be the next Charles Martel?"

Right - and we need a "marteau" immediately. Geert Wilders is a hammer - but, we need more. Many more.

"The only thing crude about this drawing is seeing that ugly mug on a dogs beautiful body. This is an insult to dogs!"

Muslims got nothing on Man's Best Friend. Nothing. And that includes cats, rabbits, birds, gerbils - you name it.

People - if you want to donate to a worthy cause:

http://www.nsalamerica.org/

People, with the greatest dignity, IMHO Darcy is the one to avoid rather than me, thank you to all who take the time and effort to provide sensible effort allowing me to learn, it is most appreciated.

OK. You wish to learn?

Fine!

Then learn that most people here detest and despise you most intensely for being a disgusting liar, pathetically clumsily camouflaged muhammedan and terminally stupid creep.
Learn that you ooze a sickening izzlumic stench which is unbearable for a non-Muzzlem.

I hope I was helpful in presenting you with the most basic facts. After you have learned them by heart you may come back for some more knowledge.


There are some wonderful things posted in this thread -- really wonderful.

But the quote from "Andy" at 10.20 p.m. by Karl Popper, who is not one of our regular posters given that Karl Popper is dead, should be pointed out. It is most useful, as quotes from the famous dead so often are, to express what the unfamous living may also have expressed, but are not able to get quite the same hearing.

Karl Popper is the favorite philosopher and nalyst of society of a certain George Soros, who even commissioned someone (I don't think the work was ever completed, though the advance was undoubtedly kept) to write a biography of him.

There are not many ways to the made-up mind of George Soros, and his money -- the result of all that financial finagling and currency bets and so on that the "other" George Soros, the philosopher-king, finds so infra dig -- allows him to do a lot of damage or in some cases -- but not in as many as he thinks -- a lot of good.

If he and others who have this money could finally wake up to the meaning and menace of Islam it would allow all kinds of things to be done, just waiting to be done.

Perhaps, where you and I and Geert Wilders and Oriana Fallaci and Wafa Sultan and Ibn Warraq and Magdi Allam and Nonie Darwish may not be listened to because, you see, we are all, all of us, "far-right" or "Bush supporters" or that hideous thing, "Republicans," cannot get a mental hearing from George Soros, at least he will give a hearing, just possibly, to Karl Popper on the subject of society's fateful "tolerating the intolerant."

A great find. May it travel widely, all over the Internet.

Thank You Thomas!

"After you have learned them by heart you may come back for some more knowledge."

Still chuckling!

Barguest - I notice that you've stopped informing us (rather unconvincingly) that you're not a muslim. Finally, tacit admission that you are?

Not at all, I am not a muslim, but this statement of fact fell on deaf ears so I stopped saying it; Note that this does not make the statement untrue.

I am a white male, working as a supervisor. I may have been born christian, but have never been religion orientated, particularly one where you are expected to carry the burden of sin without actually having committed them; what a load of cobblers that is, but that is MY opinion and I am allowed to keep it.

Darcy you are too much into this straight from a book "war is deception" bullcrap. The likelyhood is that you have never even met any muslims, don't want to meet them, don't need to know because you already have a "love of hatred" for the muslim.

Well, I need to learn before the need arises for me to hate like you do; for now I don't hate and I think that puts me in a better frame of mind than you. That could change, but somehow I doubt it; I'll bet you'd run if you really did meet a muslim based on "your" knowledge.

I meet them everyday, and (for the ones that I know) I think they are fine hardworking people; that's based on a few years of experience.

I am not a muslim and I am not a troll.

"But we should claim the right to suppress them [intolerant philosophies] if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols." - from the Karl Popper quote

Sounds like Fascism, Nazism and Islam, to me. The evil totalitarian triumvirate.

For Islam, substitute "beheading swords" for "pistols." I don't think the Mohammedans use guns too much - swords, machetes, and knives seem to be their Jihad weapons of choice. Along with airplanes, of course. It is true that Nadal Hasan, the Ft. Hood Jihadist, did use a gun.

"A great find. May it travel widely, all over the Internet." - Oh yes, it's 100% relevant to what's happening today re Islam and Muslims.

Mohammed said, “War is deceit.” (Bukhari Vol 4 Bk 52 No 268).

UK troll Barcode considers the above to be "bullcrap."

What does that tell you?

"Mr Barcode" wrote:

People, with the greatest dignity, IMHO Darcy is the one to avoid rather than me, thank you to all who take the time and effort to provide sensible effort allowing me to learn, it is most appreciated.
.....................

Well, "Mr Barcode" thinks we are all idiots. I very much agree with Darcy—he is trolling (in both senses of the word) for comments on JW that might be construed to be "racist"—that is the purpose of his question about Somalis.

"Mr. Barcode", were your question indicative of a genuine desire to "learn", I would answer thusly: as a rule, the worst Muslim countries are those that are *most Islamic*—that is, that are not mitigated by proximity to non-Muslims, either as part of the population, or as in adjacent communities.

Indonesian society, for example, is marginally better than it might be, because of large numbers of non-Muslims—Indians and Chinese, in this case—in the population. Even within Indonesia itself, it should come as no surprise that Hindu-majority Bali is far more civilized than Muslim-majority Aceh, where barbaric Shari'ah law was recently instituted.

On the other hand, while the proximity of non-Muslims can be a civilizing factor, it is also a "provocation" to Muslims-and hence, you often see the sort of insane violence against Infidels that is current today in Nigeria against Christians, in Egypt against the Copts, and in the Levant against the Jews of Israel.

Another occasionally mitigating factor is having a history of non-Shari'ah law, as in Pakistan, which is marginally more civilized than neighboring Afghanistan, which never had British law. Turkey is one of the somewhat more civilized Muslim countries, because of Ataturk and the deliberate and consistent suppressing of Islam—although this is currently being eroded under Erdogan and the Islamist parties.

The very worst Muslim countries are those with the *most Islam*—places like Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Yemen, and—yes—Somalia. (I am talking here about Afghanistan under the Taliban—its worst—read *most Islamic*—impulses are held somewhat in check right now due to the presence of Americans).

These are places rife with an arid, barbaric "culture" of vendettas and looting, crushing oppression, forced child "marriage", and the stoning of women—places that are virtually *hell on earth*. They are also places with virtually no art, music, or intellectual life—which is what the article above is about, in part.

So—race has *nothing* to do with it. It is all about the Islam.

"Well, "Mr Barcode" thinks we are all idiots."

It's that "superior peoples" lie Mohamet brainwashed his inferior peoples' with. Mohamet and his lies unleashed a plague on humanity - the Islamic plague.

The Middle East - Judeo-Christian for millenia and hundreds of years. Now, all Mohammedan except Israel, thanks to 7th century AD hate-filled mass-murdering Islam. Disgusting. Utterly disgusting.

I have rented "The Stoning of Soraya M." But, I'm having trouble putting it in the DVD player, i.e. I'm afraid to watch the horror. Anyone have any suggestions for me? Has anyone seen it?

Ok Mr Barcode, you insist you're not a muslim - I'll take you at your word. It actually matters little to me whether you are or not - I judge you on the evidence of your posts, which come across as clear examples of shilling for islam. Or, in the case of the one at 4:33 AM as pathetically transparent attempts to elicit potentially racist responses from other posters, and thus get some dirt with which to try to blacken this site's name. Sorry my friend - we've seen through that little game.

I don't dispute that there are some muslims who don't really abide by the tenets of their apparent belief system - we might call these 'MINOs' - Muslims In Name Only. (These, however, would be deemed apostates by their more pious co-religionists. There are plenty examples of muslims killing other muslims for not being sufficiently islamic. You must be aware of this, or perhaps not if you rely solely on the BBC for your views of islam). But you can't deny there are many more worldwide - beyond the confines of the retail outfit in which you work - who commit the vilest acts on the pretext of it being their 'religion'.

The hadith quoted by Darcy at 8:01 is accurate, and how many muslims do you think would be willing to stand up and say that the word of their 'prophet' is wrong? Far too few. That you dismiss the fact that the majority of muslims believe that stuff as "bullcrap" is, my friend, rather sloppy thinking.

Regards

Barguest

gravenimage wrote:

"So—race has *nothing* to do with it. It is all about the Islam."

Indeed. Discussing the merits or lacktherof, based on the differing ethnicity or race of Muslims is as counter productive as using individual Muslims as examples to counter the argument against Islam, to which Mr Barcode tries repeatedly to use as the foundation of his argument.

I agree that he is intentionally fishing for responsive comments that can be used against this site, but he lacks any subtlety to his disingenuous approach.

"Mohammed said, “War is deceit.” (Bukhari Vol 4 Bk 52 No 268).

UK troll Barcode considers the above to be "bullcrap."

What does that tell you?"

It tells us that he's the one full of crap. He is a muslim; and he also knows that the posters whom DON'T see through his Stupid-Act, that in fact they are the stupid ones -- and he knows it.

Also, notice how he isn't here to learn -- not at all, and that NONE of his "questions" pertain to the presenting headline. He acts as if he's wondering around in some kind of innocent fog -- asking one inane "question" after another -- when in fact he's deliberately attempting to redirect the topic, just as other posters have noticed him do.

Yes, Barcode is obviously a muslim, and not a very good liar, too. Tsk, tsk, allah must be very displeased.

"Well, "Mr Barcode" thinks we are all idiots. I very much agree with Darcy—he is trolling (in both senses of the word) for comments on JW that might be construed to be "racist"—that is the purpose of his question about Somalis."

Completely agree, Gravenimage & Darcy.

Hey champ - remember in that thread with the many Muslim women covered in their green shrouds, Barcode gets on and says he knows nothing about Islam, he's here to "learn," and then remarks later that the women aren't in the "da'wa pose"?!

Yeah, he knows nothing!

Hey champ, it's really beautiful here today - early Spring. Hope it's so in your neighborhood, too.

To Barcode ....

"OK. You wish to learn?

Fine!

Then learn that most people here detest and despise you most intensely for being a disgusting liar, pathetically clumsily camouflaged muhammedan and terminally stupid creep.
Learn that you ooze a sickening izzlumic stench which is unbearable for a non-Muzzlem.

I hope I was helpful in presenting you with the most basic facts. After you have learned them by heart you may come back for some more knowledge."

Thomas_h, you took the words right out of my mouth! ...so I hope you don't mind my repeating them?

Ladies & Gents ....

Notice how "Barcode" insults and annoys the female posters in particular? Women like, Darcy, Susanp, Gravenimage, and myself. Does this come naturally to misogynistic mohammedan men?

Has anyone else noticed this from him as well? And are there other female posters that he's targetting, too?

"Hey champ, it's really beautiful here today - early Spring. Hope it's so in your neighborhood, too."

Thank you, darcy! ...yes it's beautiful here, too; and then later on today hubby and I will walk the track again. Yeah everything is so green and gorgeous. I love Spring :)

"Hey champ - remember in that thread with the many Muslim women covered in their green shrouds, Barcode gets on and says he knows nothing about Islam, he's here to "learn," and then remarks later that the women aren't in the "da'wa pose"?!

Yeah, he knows nothing!"

Hi darcy, yes I remember that thread, and his bogus claim that he's here to "learn" ...and good catch, btw. Barcode is a lousy liar, so allah must be very unhappy with him. Looks like no sex heaven for this SofA.

How did AP gain so much leverage in the media?

Us doing nothing.

Send them a message.

mailto:info@ap.org

AP SUCKS!

Let's not be too hard on Michael Weissenstein. He is one of millions that have been immersed in what I believe has been a decades long, covert but aggressive campaign to inculcate in the fertile minds of the non-believers the notion that "Islam is a religion of peace." How many times have you heard that response from people you'd think would know better? Mr. Weissenstein needs a pat on the head to help him get his superior, intellectual mind right.....perhaps with a 2 X 4.

"...And bottle-blond Dutch populist politician Geert Wilders said he was promoting European values by producing Fitna..."


It's time for the press to assert
That bottle-blond populist Geert
Is paying the cost
So civilization's not lost
And to barbarity doesn't convert.

Barcode: You are a fraud. You are not here to learn. You were exposed from your very first post. You tried to diss Darcy on that thread, too, didn't you? How's that workin' out for ya? You're not fit to sweep her floors.

Why not just come out and say that you're a muslim or a muslim-sympathizer, or just a loser who hates the West? Or all the above?
This little charade has gotten you nowhere!
How dull can you be not to see that? What's left for you to lose by trying the truth?

But...here's an honest answer to your latest pseudo-question:

Anyone, from anywhere, including from my own country, regardless of race or color, who embraces the evil, violent, detestable, barbaric "religion" of islam...
is my enemy. The enemy of my country. The enemy of all I consider humane and decent in humanity, all I hold dear in life. PERIOD!

Have a nice day...

Montedoro44, that's beautiful. Thank you! And just for the record he's the only "bottle blond" in the news this past week who wasn't trying to kill people in the name if Islam.

Darcy and Champ, howdy girlfriends. Don't let Mr. Butthead get you down. As a Muslim man he congratulates himself on how clever he is but forgets that Jihad Watchers have long memories and excellent noses. And always remember and never forget, Muslims lie.

I'm betting that he's a CAIR operative that has been planted here to look dumb and pretend like he's asking questions to better understand. No man could be as stupid as he pretends to be, could they? I mean seriously, my ten year old nephew could come up with a better act than his. Useful idiots are one thing but useful idiots trying to look stupid? Come on, I think that is more than any of us can take.

Hey Mr. B, please say "hi" to my old buddy Reader/Jennfier, legal director for CAIR Columbus who likes to troll and dominate the comments section of the Rifqa articles over at the Columbus Dispatch, will you? You can do that at this week's CAIR strategy conference call. Love and kisses to Ibby Hooper. XOXOXOXO

Baroode: As I said before in the "Las Vegas" thread, you strike me as an apologist for Islam, even if aren't nessicerly Muslim. I'd appreciate it if you answer my questions:

1.)Tell me, do you see Islam as a "religion of peace" or "just as violent" as christanity, Judeuism, Hinduism etc?

2.)Do you think Muslims should be aforded special rights in terms of security and scrutinity for what they do? (such as loud public praying, by-passing scanners)

if you answered "yes" to the first question, then I'd further ask you explain:

-The Battle of Badr (http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Muhammad/myths-mu-badr.html)
-The siege of Bandu Nadir (http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Muhammad/myths-mu-nadir.html)
-The proclimation that in the last days the rocks and trees will call out for the death of Jews (Suhih Muslim, book 41, #6985 - http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/muslim/041.smt.html

That's just my short list. Trust me there is a lot more. Mohammad was a thief, murder rapist pedophile.

George - You are a fraud.

I beg to differ, I maybe a novice but I am entitled to an opinion and I have muslims to have conversations with; a luxary that is denied to you. Long distance learning sucks don't it George, I can talk to the experts everyday.

Champ - Notice how "Barcode" insults and annoys the female posters in particular?

Show me where I have insulted the female posters. What I have done is ask people politely to distance themselves from darcy; because she provides zero value to the threads. She has no objective opinion; and just wants to insult insult insult. Then you and other "women" get involved insut me and then say that I pick on you. LoL that's rich of you, but it doesn't affect me at all.

You talk about muslim hate; but boy can you hate too.

Your hate I think stems from anger and fear. Add to this the defeatist attitude that christians take on by default and you see it:

Fewer children in our West. Pseudo power to the woman, who provide you with a big gob, and a 66% divorce rate.

To be quite honest with you, people start to insult and be gobby when they have lost the logical argument; and darcy is more lost than most; that's the truth and I cannot help that, only darcy can.

If a muslim did come to this site I'll bet he simply gets hounded out. He/she may WANT to integrate, but you will never give them a chance. That's too bad; it is attitudes like darcy's which force muslims to live amongst themselves, and they will out breed us that much is plain.

That is the fear and anger that darcy feels; that ultimately she may be more intellegent than most muslims never the less her siblings will be ruled by them. Her doctor/nurse sibings will help to bring more muslims into this world.

The truth is out there darcy; embrace it.

"You tried to diss Darcy on that thread, too, didn't you? How's that workin' out for ya? You're not fit to sweep her floors."

Right, George. And we love and appreciate longtime poster "darcy" and her spot on observations and comments, so he must feel really threatened by her. Unlike Barfcode, whom we immediately disliked from the get-go due to his horrific comments about 9/11; and then today on another thread he stated that he didn't like Americans because we were offended here by his insensitive 9/11 comments. Only a mohammedan uses such hurtful, hateful and inane tactics.

Hi, Isa! :)

Barclod --

We love and appreciate longtime poster "darcy" and her spot on observations and comments, so you must feel really threatened by her.

Unlike you, whom we immediately disliked from the get-go due to your horrific comments about 9/11; and then today on another thread you stated that you didn't like Americans because we were offended here on JW by your utterly insensitive comments about 9/11.

Yeah only a misogynist mohammedan would make such hateful and inane remarks about darcy -- and only a mohammedan would use cloak 'n dagger tactics like you use.

Yes, Mr. B, Miss Darcy isn't going anywhere. She's a valued poster and, like you say, entitled to her opinion. You are too, absolutely, but nobody cares what it is. You have not ingratiated yourself here which would have been easy if you had one iota of what it takes to get along with "infidels". We don't ask for much, just honesty and a willingness to share ideas and try and understand other peoples' views. But you blew it when you played the "I know nice Muslims", as if that's all it takes to wipe away 1400 years of rape, pillage, forced conversions and murder, which has all been on the increase since 9/11.

You are the fraud sir, and you are getting in deeper with every comment you post.

And for the record we have all had opportunities to interact with Muslims so take your condescending B.S and insert it in a convenient place.

Exactly, Isa ...and I would take Darcy's spot on opinions and comments over Buttcracks ANY ole day! Buttcrack lies, he insults, he projects; all in an effort to undermine the Truth about evil mohammad and evil islam. He tries to shine the spot light on other posters, when in fact EVIL ISLAM NEEDS TO TAKE THE SPOT LIGHT, not other posters.

Hugs to you, Isa!

Correction to my above post ....

He tries to shine the spot light on other posters, when in fact EVIL ISLAM AND ITS "ADHERENTS" NEEDS TO TAKE THE SPOT LIGHT, not other posters, "with the exception of posters like Barcode, of course."

Thomas_h, you took the words right out of my mouth! ...so I hope you don't mind my repeating them?

Mais, au contraire, ma cheri Champ! Je me sens très honorée.

Please be my guest any time.

Best

Thomas

You grow more and more aggressive as time goes on.
You pissed me off from the first post and you continue to do so.
"Rhythmic thumps of American bodies hitting the roof"...
Your 9/11 conspiracy theory, your refusal to accept the fact that thighing is common in islamic nations, your attacks on long time, best loved posters here.

Here to learn? Here to learn how to piss off your betters. Here to learn what buttons to push. Here to learn how far you can go before being banished as so many other insulting little trolls have been.

I know many muslims. That's how I know you for what you are...punk.

You are a liar.

You are however, mildly entertaining. But your entertainment value is exceeded by your stench little troll.

As I've asked of many inept and transparent clumsy trolls before you....perhaps I've asked you already...

Do you believe that you are the first of your kind to show up here and stir shit just to smell it?
Do you believe that any of your pathetic attempts to insert wedges tweenst those here will amount to anything? Do you seriously believe that you have brought anything at all new to the discussions here? Do you believe that the questions you pose have not been posed a hundred times before they were excreted from your stench hole?
It's been tried over and over through the years...punk.
You are one of many who have come here to make the same tired arguments, spew the same cookie cutter insults and show the same condescending, superior attitude. You're just one more whack a mole that has popped up here to get your inadequate intellectual ass kicked.


We're on to you you punk. You are the enemy. You are a defender of the Religion of Blood and Death and I know it. You have been neutered. You will not spread your lies and deceit here and go unchallenged.
And I just can't help commenting on your hilarious assertion that you have your little harem around you to ask about islam. CRACKED ME UP! I can see it now...
Barcode asks the Foxes...
"Are the chickens safe? Someone tole me you Foxes eat chickens...is that true?" But you know the answer before you ask the question.
Not that I really believe you are new to islam, have any real questions to ask or want to learn. You want to teach. That much is clear. You want to lecture. you seek to defend my mortal enemy...islam. That makes you my enemy.
Get it?...punk

islam is a lie and
Truth is killing it.

"You want to lecture. you seek to defend my mortal enemy...islam. That makes you my enemy.
Get it?...punk"

Mine too, AlaskanInfidel! ...and you told him off, lol! Yeah he is a punk. And how dare he call out darcy and take her inventory, when HE'S the one that needs to be called out!

LIAR!

PUNK!

mohammedan with a small male ego to match ....

Barcode: I noticed you didn't answer any of my questions, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you missed it, but please answer them.

"If a muslim did come to this site I'll bet he simply gets hounded out. He/she may WANT to integrate, but you will never give them a chance. That's too bad; it is attitudes like darcy's which force muslims to live amongst themselves, and they will out breed us that much is plain."

That's just the problem that I think you're missing. Muslims CAN NOT "intergrate" as long as they are muslim, and SHOULD be treated with at least some suspicion. Many Muslims have come on here in the image of "learning" but ended up being apologists, and showing quite clearly they CANNOT bring themselves to disassociate themselves from the "extermist" islamic teachings including hatred of jews, subjegation of woman, promotion of harsh punishments and the subjegation of the kuffir. (See my previous posts with questions and www.therelgiionoftruth.com for why this is true through words and deeds of mohammad)

Until muslims denounce islam as a lie and mohammad as an evil murderer, theif, liar and rapist (they must use those words) they should NOT be trusted. All muslims should be seen as potential terrorists, because islam at it's very root is full of hate, and it's otherwise impossible to descern the "radical" from the "moderite".

Strong language is ABSOLUTELY neccisery in the denouncing because Muslims are taught it's ok to lie to the kuffir and so may simply say "I am not muslim" or such, but is less likely to blasmime against islam unless they really mean it.

Note I'm not saying muslims should be descriminated against or mistreated, but we in the west who hold to western ideals of freedom should be weary.

Ah Barcode...the cracks are really starting to show now aren't they? There's some quite overt misogeny in that last post of yours. Very mohammedan. And then there's the victim posturing, like everyone's picking on you. You sowed this particular wind my friend, and now you reap it's consequent whirlwind. The fact that you seem unable to do so without much whining is also very mohammedan. If you're not actually a muslim already I can clearly see why you'd find islam (or, as I like to think of it, the religion of utter depravity) quite appealing.

I expect you'll flounce off now with some petulant words, but rest assured you won't be missed (you've been far less entertaining than some of the other trolls who've come sniffing around here). In any case trolls are like buses: there's always another one along in a few minutes time.

Aisha would have loved to converse with Barcode.

Andy and Hugh,

Though I essentially agree with Popper's thesis, it's problematic: Who shall decide what constitutes "intolerance"? There is no such thing as social consensus in America any more. Someday, Popper's thesis could possibly be used against the anti-Jihad. This is already the case on many college campuses.

"Barcode: You are a fraud. You are not here to learn. You were exposed from your very first post. You tried to diss Darcy on that thread, too, didn't you? How's that workin' out for ya? You're not fit to sweep her floors." - George

Thank You!

I wouldn't let him sweep my floors. Only a superior person does that! Now, he could take out the trash, that would be okay! And put himself in the trash, at the same time! SO okay!

Thank you, Thomas_h ...you sweet talker, you; and I don't know exactly what you said, but it sure sounds purdy!

I'll give it a whirl ....

"Actually, quite the contrary, my dear Champ. It is my honor."

Maybe? Am I close? ...lol

Hey Darcy, you're back ...yeah he is targetting you and other posters, when islam and company should be the real targets. His comments about other posters is tactical, because he's trying to psyche us out and get the attention OFF of islam, et al.

Hey, but we know better, don't we? Yeah it ain't gonna work ....

"Who shall decide what constitutes "intolerance?"

Well, why don't you let Fascists or Nazis or Muslims do that? That OK with you? Or Mao Zedong, perhaps we should let him decide what's "intolerant" or not. I mean, who knows?!

Or perhaps we should have applauded Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor? I mean, who knows what's right or wrong or "intolerant," right? Who the heck knows???

Or, the massacre inflicted on the Chinese city of Nanking by Japanese troops, in which Chinese women were raped and bludgeoned, and Chinese males' heads were chopped off. I mean, who can tell right from wrong, right? Or what's "intolerant?" Who knows?

Or, Idi Amin - who knows? Maybe the Muslim was correct in mass-murdering 500,000 Ugandans? I mean, who can tell what's "intolerant," and what's not? Who's to say, right?

Or, the Buddhists in Thailand murdered by Mohammedans. Who's to say what's right or wrong, or what's "intolerant?" Gee, who knows? A mystery.

Or, the Muslims in Pakistan that cut off Daniel Pearl's head while he was still alive, and then dismembered him in 50 pieces. Wow - it's so hard to tell what's "intolerant" and what's not!

Or, 9/11 - 3,000 Americans slaughtered by 19 Muslim Jihadists. Who knows? Maybe they were right. Who can decide what's "intolerant" and what's not? It's a mystery!

Or, the Jihad of Ft Hood. Who knows? Maybe the 13 American soldiers deserved to be murdered. Who knows? It's so hard to tell what's "intolerant" and what's not.

Here's "Intolerance":

"Kill non-Muslims wherever you find them. Lie in wait and ambush them, seize and capture them using every stratagem of war." - Qur'an 9:5

"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter. (Qur'an 5:33)

And many more Koranic verses, as you know.

Who decides what's "intolerant?" If you don't know, what the heck are you doing on Jihad Watch?

No offense. I'm just a bit shocked at your apparent puzzlement of "who decides?" Let's go with the Fascists, Nazis, and Muslims, then, shall we? That should put things in perspective of "who decides?"


Spot on, darcy!

Oh yeah - he's a Muslim.

If he wasn't he'd be agreeing with us instead of attacking us. Hello, that's a no-brainer.

Including agreement with Susanp's "take no prisoners" comment about Somalians. That's what I love about her - she tells it just like it is. No holds barred. Brava Susanp - a superb Analyzer of Islam and Mohammedans. Just think of Susanp as Secretary of State instead of our current veil-wearing Appeaser-to-Islam Dhimmi, Billary.

Yes, I read bc's inane comment to Susanp, and her "Brava" response to him. And no kidding, she would make an excellent SofS ...and Robert should be President, with Hugh as Vice. Yeah the Obama Islamistration sucks! ...just like islam sucks.

Re: Barcode, I forgot (there have been so many covert Islam apologists in the comments over the years) -- was Barcode the "pink and green veil" guy who claimed he didn't know anything about Islam?

It appears we have a friend in Bridgette Gabriel who is paying attention to Geert.

http://by133w.bay133.mail.live.com/default.aspx?wa=wsignin1.0

Something to bear in mind, always, when one encounters egregious nonsense like this article: it is not only Vilks' or Westergaard's cartoons gently cocking a snook at Mohammed ha-Meshugga that 'offend' Muslims, that fill the sharia-minded 'commanders of right and forbidders of wrong' with rage and the lust to smash, burn and destroy.

*Every sculpture* in Europe that is a recognisable representation of a human being or an animal or an angel offends Muslims: for sharia places an absolute ban upon sculpture. Michelangelo's David, and his Pieta, and his Moses, and Rodin's Burghers of Calais and Rodin's The Thinker and Rodin's The Kiss offend Muslims.

Every 'angel roof' in every church in England offends Muslims.

Every painting displayed anywhere in Europe, that depicts a living being, human or animal or mythological, offends Muslims: things whose subject matter has nothing to say about Islam whatsoever, things that were created by artists who were not thinking about Islam or Muslims at all.

Since sharia places an absolute ban upon the representation of living beings in pictures, it is Vermeer's Girl With a Pearl Earring, and Da Vinci's Mona Lisa and his Madonna of the Rocks, and his Visitation, or Titian's l'Assunta, or Raphael's 'The School of Athens' and Durer and Velasquez and El Greco and Giotto and Botticelli's La Primavera, or for that matter, the marvellous beasts in the caves of Lascaux and Altamira and drawn in the margins of the Book of Kells, that are just as offensive, just as much an assault on those exquisitely tender Muslim sensitivities, just as much a casus belli, as any Danish or Swedish cartoon.

Everything you will find if you click on this link and explore, is a standing insult to Islam:

http://staff.science.uva.nl/~fjseins/RembrandtCatalogue/index.html

What do you think Muslims would like to do to Rembrandt's glorious painting, 'The Jewish Bride'?

http://www.rijksmuseum.nl/images/aria/sk/z/sk-c-216.z

Most everything (except the still lifes, vases of flowers, etc., and non-figured landscapes) that you will find at *this* link, too (just click where it says 'paintings', and explore)

http://www.renoirgallery.com/gallery.asp

is a standing insult to Muslims, and would be *destroyed* - smashed or burned - if Islam ruled in Europe as it does in Saudi Arabia.

...yeserie, Hesp :)

That's good, Barcode--let's get the gloves off
& have a real chat!

Look, ant-bait, nobody's buying your crap. You came here under false pretences to defend the indefensible. This little hard-on you have for the West came out early and often. You WANT to see us lose, don't you? So badly, in fact, that you'd support even ugly islam against us, right? Only life's embittered failures would defend islam, let alone embrace it. If you're a loser, that's your own fault.

You think you're a lecturing-professor on islam because you work with a few muslima check-out ladies? THAT'S the basis for your arrogance? Get serious!

Hey, Skippy, I don't run this rodeo, so I only speak for myself: But I don't give a frog's fat ass if muslims come to this site or not. If you're offended, good. I'm offended by liars and fakes like you, so we're even.

Are you about done here? If not, you're even stupider than I thought...and that shouldn't be underestimated...


Time to re-post, for the benefit of the new inquirers who lob in here every day, what I regard as three definitive and beautifully complementary statements on the nature of the Religion of Perpetual Outrage.

Mr Fitzgerald's classic essay, "95 Things That Fuel Muslim Extremism".

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2006/10/fitzgerald-95-things-that-fuel-muslim-extremism.html

Apostate Abul Kasem's scathing disquisition "When is Islam Oppressed?":

http://www.islam-watch.org/AbulKasem/IslamOppressed.htm

And the ever-lengthening - both ridiculous and horrible - List of Things That Offend Muslims.

http://amboytimes.typepad.com/the_amboy_times/2007/02/the_list_of_thi.html

Islam is so divorced from reality, so opposed to sanity, that just about everything in the universe can be conceived of, by a truly brainwashed Muslim, as a mortal offence to himself, merely because of the fact that it EXISTS at all.

Oh, and let's throw in Phyllis Chesler's marvellously sarcastic piece about the poor little persecuted jihadis and their poor little hurt feewings, too:

http://pajamasmedia.com/phyllischesler/2010/03/14/the-jihadi-feels-persecuted—his-aggression-is-self-defense/

Where is the desktop publisher who will combine these four items (having, of course, obtained permission from the authors - I don't think it would be difficult), add suitably savage Hogarthian satirical illustrations of the monstrous mindset exposed, and turn the result into something along the same lines as an 18th-century political pamphlet, and... circulate it the length and breadth of Europe, as samizdat?

Darcy wrote:

I have rented "The Stoning of Soraya M." But, I'm having trouble putting it in the DVD player, i.e. I'm afraid to watch the horror. Anyone have any suggestions for me? Has anyone seen it?
.....................

Darcy, you *should* watch it. I saw it when it first came out in theatres. "The Stoning of Soraya M." is not a perfect film—for one thing, brave and principled as the film makers are, they cannot quite bring themselves to hold Islam responsible for the horrors that ensue.

As for the depiction of stoning, the film avoids showing some of the most grisly aspects of lapidation (like broken noses and pulped eyeballs). That being said, the film makers *did not* sugarcoat the stoning itself. It is slow, brutal, bloody and horrifying.

I knew what was coming—it's right in the title of the movie-and still, I found myself crying right in the theatre from rage and pity.

Despite its few shortcomings, it is a courageous and very important film, and well worth seeing. I hope you see "The Stoning of Soraya M.", and I hope you let us know what you think.

DARCY: "Who decides what's "intolerant?" If you don't know, what the heck are you doing on Jihad Watch?

"No offense. I'm just a bit shocked at your apparent puzzlement of "who decides?" Let's go with the Fascists, Nazis, and Muslims, then, shall we? That should put things in perspective of "who decides?" "

RESPONSE: We all enjoy your passion Darcy, but you have a tendency to get hysterical on occasion. Please calm down.

I think I was very explicit in my point: Today, in many universities across the country, liberal administrators and faculty decide what is "intolerant"...and in the process, many conservative voices are silenced. In many Western societies, the liberal/left has appropriated the role of cultural gate-keeper. In Europe, it's now so bad that identifying rioters as "Muslims" or even as "immigrants" is considered racist and intolerant.

My point is obvious, that the establishment of what constitutes "intolerance" could easily be used to silence legitimate dissent.


"That being said, the film makers *did not* sugarcoat the stoning itself. It is slow, brutal, bloody and horrifying."

Yow. Thanks for your input. It's still on the coffee table right now. Maybe I'll watch it later, don't know. I know it's an important film and I should watch it.

Sorry, Cornelius, I didn't mean for you to take offense. But, please calm down, no need to get hysterical. Your passion is enjoyable, as well. Hope you have a great evening.

Right, you can't even say the word "Muslim" when talking about Terrorism. Ditto "Islamic." They're just plain ole generic "Terrorists." Carbon-based life forms.

Re: Karl Popper:

From a letter by Eric Voegelin to Leo Straus (text in square brackets was in the original):

Dear Mr. Strauss,

The opportunity to speak a few deeply felt words about Karl Popper to a kindred soul is too golden to endure a long delay. This Popper has been for years, not exactly a stone against which one stumbles, but a troublesome pebble that I must continually nudge from the path, in that he is constantly pushed upon me by people who insist that his work on the “open society and its enemies” is one of the social science masterpieces of our times. This insistence persuaded me to read the work even though I would otherwise not have touched it. You are quite right to say that it is a vocational duty to make ourselves familiar with the ideas of such a work when they lie in our field; I would hold out against this duty the other vocational duty, not to write and to publish such a work. In that Popper violated this elementary vocational duty and stole several hours of my lifetime, which I devoted in fulfilling my vocational duty, I feel completely justified in saying without reservation that this book is impudent, dilettantish crap. Every single sentence is a scandal, but it is still possible to lift out a few main annoyances.

1. The expressions "closed [society]" and "open society" are taken from Bergson's Deux Sources. Without explaining the difficulties that induced Bergson to create these concepts, Popper takes the terms because they sound good to him; [he] comments in passing that in Bergson they had a "religious" meaning but that he will use the concept of the open society closer to Graham Wallas's "great society" or to that of Walter Lippmann. Perhaps I am oversensitive about such things, but I do not believe that respectable philosophers such as Bergson develop their concepts for the sole purpose that the coffeehouse scum might have something to botch. There also arises the relevant problem: If Bergson's theory of the open society is philosophically and historically tenable [which I in fact believe], then Popper's idea of the open society is ideological rubbish. For this reason alone, he should have discussed the problem with all possible care.

2.The impertinent disregard for the achievements in his particular problem area, which makes itself evident with respect to Bergson, runs through the whole work. When one reads the deliberations on Plato and Hegel, one has the impression that Popper is quite unfamiliar with the literature on the subject -- even though he occasionally cites an author. In some cases, as for example Hegel, I would believe that he has never seen a work like Rosenzweig's Hegel und der Staat. In other cases, where he cites works without appearing to have perceived their contents, another factor is added:

3. Popper is so philosophically uncultured, so fully a primitive ideological brawler, that he is not able even approximately to reproduce correctly the contents of one page of Plato. Reading is of no use to him; he is too lacking in knowledge to understand what the author says. Through this emerge terrible things, as when he translates Hegel's "Germanic world" as "German world" and draws conclusions from this mistranslation regarding Hegel's German nationalist propaganda.

4. Popper engages in no textual analysis from which can be seen the author's intention; instead he carries the modern ideological cliches directly to the text, assuming that the text will deliver results in the sense of cliches. It will be a special pleasure for you to hear that, for example, Plato experienced an evolution -- from an early "humanitarian" period still recognizable in Gorgias, to something else [I can't recall any more if "reactionary" or "authoritarian"] in the Republic.

Briefly and in sum: Popper's book is a scandal without extenuating circumstances; in its intellectual attitude it is the typical product of a failed intellectual; spiritually, one would have to to use expressions like rascally, impertinent, loutish; in terms of technical competence, as a piece in the history of thought, it is dilettantish, and as a result is worthless.

http://books.google.com/books?id=rEu61KIK6FYC&pg=PA53&lpg=PA53&dq=voegelin+%22karl+popper%22+%22a+few+main+annoyances%22&source=bl&ots=zUaoLocaN9&sig=KmoeMXg0W7EoqAUV1-3oANTYSyk&hl=en&ei=V7ueS5bzNZL-tAOK8v3VCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CAsQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Thanks champ -- one has to stay on top of these guys, because when we forget what shenanigans they were doing a few weeks before, they may seem to have slightly more credibility as they try to "re-invent" themselves. Kudos to you, darcy and the others for staying on top of Barcode.

"Mr. Barcode" wrote:

Fewer children in our West. Pseudo power to the woman, who provide you with a big gob, and a 66% divorce rate.

To be quite honest with you, people start to insult and be gobby...
....................

For our non-Brit readers, who may have wondered what "Mr. Barcode" was on about here—a "gobby" woman is one who won't shut up.

In other words, "Mr. Barcode" feels that some of the women here at JW are simply not submissive enough...

Yes Hesp - one must not be fooled by the deceptive Mohammedans! Thanks.

I read with interest that Letter you posted above from political philosopher Eric Voegelin. Wow, his condemnation of Popper is so fierce and relentless and enormously insulting that you think he must have some kind of personal beef against Popper. He ends with condemning Popper's work as "worthless." Worthless? Just totally worthless? Well, guess what? Voegelin was a Logical Positivist, and Popper criticized Logical Positivism. Which explains the over-the-top vitriol, such as calling Popper a "dilettante," (yeah right!) a "brawler," a "rascal," and a "lout." Yep, that's personal. Ad hominem city.

Eric Voegelin's language makes him sound like the biggest pompous ass. The name-calling is so harsh you'd think Popper had written "Mein Kampf" or something. I mean - "rascally, impertinent, loutish" - Come on! "Rascally?" lol And Sir Karl Popper "primitive" and "uncultured?" Somehow, I don't think so.

Hugh, for example, really liked the "tolerating the intolerant" passage from Popper posted by "Andy" and pronounced it: "A great find. May it travel widely, all over the Internet." (My "p" alliteration sheer coincidence!)

It would be interesting to know Hugh's opinion concerning Voegelin's venomous tirade against Popper. Especially in consideration of the fact that Popper criticized Logical Positivism, and Voegelin just happened to be a Logical Positivist. Oh those crusty old Philosopher's and their grudges!

Hi Barcode. You are here to learn. what have you learnt so far?
Your Muhammad never gave anynody any benefit of doubt, just the beheadings, and you expect that we ignore hundreds of the idiotic and disgusting hints that you have already given of a muslim apologist. Don't be a supervisor, please join CAIR, it's more suitable for you, and there you will also see many more decent muslims.
Barcode whatever you are, you are still 10000 times better than your beloved Muhammad.
If you start a cult it would be much better than Islam.
I would also join it to be the automatic genius among the idiots.

Thanks for the input Hesp.

I don't know anything about Popper's writings, save for what I read from Andy's post, but I'm certain of this: As I read it, I realized one would not have to change a single syllable in order to use such an entreaty to justify the repression of - in the ideologically corrupted minds that rule our universities - such "intolerance" as that advocated by David Horowitz, Robert Spencer, Hirsi Ali, etc.

Champ,

I'll give it a whirl ...
Maybe? Am I close?

You were perfect!
That little whirl of yours was a tornado of acumen.
:)

cheers,

Thomas

Thanks, Hesp ...

Ouah ! J'y ai réussi !

...not bad since I don't speak parley-voo-fran-say ...

:)

Well darcy, you're right about the way Voegelin's letter sounds. But knowing Voegelin as I do, he demonstrated an astounding degree of knowledge about history and philosophy. He read all the primary works in their original languages -- he read Hebrew, Greek, Latin (both classical and medieval), along with French, Italian, Dutch, English, and of course his native tongue, German. I tend to respect his opinions and give him the benefit of the doubt on subjects I know little about (such as Karl Popper).

Voegelin did not pull his punches. He called Sartre a charlatan, but praised the insights of Albert Camus -- both of these French thinkers tend to be lumped together under the category of "modern atheist existentialists"; Voegelin showed discrimination in this regard. On the other hand there were many thinkers about whom he was ambivalent (such as Descartes.

I'm sure Voegelin was brilliant. So was Nietzsche, and he was nuts.

Voegelin hated Popper, that's obvious, which demolishes any "unbiased" opinion he may have had on Popper's work. Completely demolishes it.

Voegelin bore a grudge against Popper as Popper was a critic of Logical Positivism, Voegelin's philosophy. The personal Letter you posted is a vendetta of enormous proportions. Popper "worthless?" Yeah - Sir Karl Popper is "worthless" - NOT.

Ergo, Voegelin's personal hatred toward Popper only reflects on Voegelin, a vengeful, conceited, Narcissistic, Creep.

My vote's for Popper.

"He called Sartre a Charlatan"

Oh, really? And exactly why? Because Sartre didn't agree with him? It sounds like Voegelin had a huge case of Narcissistic Personality Disorder - "Grandiosity," for sure.

Imagine calling Sir Karl Popper a "primitive" and "uncultured!" Yeah, right. It's Voegelin who's got the problem.

Cornelius, that could well have been a symptom of the bankruptcy of Popper as described by Voegelin. One has to go beyond merely "not tolerating the intolerant"; one has to specify what is the "intolerant" one will not be tolerating.

darcy,

Voegelin had no personal grudge against Popper. As you can glean from the quote I provided, he didn't even know who Popper was, but colleagues and students kept pestering him about reading Popper, so finally he did, and he reacted against the content and the, in his estimation, failed arguments; not the man.

Secondly, Voegelin was not a logical positivist. He was a reviver of classical philosophy, centered on Plato, and understood Christianity to be a further unfolding of that along with its unfolding of Israel.

"He called Sartre a Charlatan"

Oh, really? And exactly why? Because Sartre didn't agree with him?

You'd have to read his essays surrounding that theme; in a nutshell I can't help making somewhat simplistic here, he diagnosed Sartre as a thinker who in a strange combination of willfulness and semi-consciousness closed himself off from God and from the pain of the mystery of life, and then pronounced his own closure of his soul as a general "prison" which he generously extended to all Mankind as a "human condition" of "absurdity" from which there is supposed to be no escape.

"Voegelin had no personal grudge against Popper."

Well sorry, but the Letter you posted speaks otherwise. It's way too over-the-top to not be personal.

"...and he reacted against the content and the, in his estimation, failed arguments; not the man."

Whaaat?! "not the man?" You missed all those ad hominem insults? Better re-read the Letter again.

Yes, he was a Logical Positivist, among other things.

Oh well, I'm finished with all this.

Sorry darcy, but I have been studying Voegelin for years. He is no "logical positivist". If you can back that claim up with a definition of "logical positivism" and then show from his writings that he follows that, then I'd be interested.

darcy,

Routinely we here at JW pour vitriol on Muslims and Islam apologists for their ideas, and it's not merely personal. We find their ideas repellant. Same goes for Voegelin when he encountered what he felt to be repellant ideas, whether in Popper, Sartre, Nietzsche, Marx or others.

Hi Hesp,

I guess I'm not interested in this discussion about Popper/Voegelin anymore. Back to Mohammedans and Islam!

I do respect your knowledge about Eric Voegelin. I guess if I had to choose a favorite Philosopher it would be Voltaire.

I know you won't take offense if I correct your spelling of "repellent," esp. since you used the word twice. Hope you don't mind, no offense intended.

Happy St. Patrick's Day, Hesp. I wonder how the Muslims in Ireland are celebrating it, which, of course, they aren't. Muslims in Ireland. Now that's repellent.

Thanks darcy,

I will use "repellent" from now on, though I notice the dictionary allows "repellant" as an alternate spelling, so it's not technically incorrect. Those writers I have read over the years who used the -ant ending, from whom I absorbed by unconscious osmosis that variant, were not incorrect; but I rather like the -ent ending better anyway, though.

Hmm. Barcode's gone, scared off by harsh questions and reality of the posters here?

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