According to this story, one of the bombers in yesterday's attack in Moscow may also have been mentally retarded. Such gallant mujahedin, pressing the most vulnerable members of society into the business of mass murder. And it would not be the first time we have seen this tactic employed. "Russia hunts 21-strong 'Black Widow' cell as first images of suicide bombers are released," by Will Stewart for the Daily Mail, March 30:
The first images of the 'Black Widow' suicide bombers were released today as Vladimir Putin vowed to 'scrape out the attackers from the bottom of the sewers'.
As Russia held a day of mourning for the 39 people killed in the underground terror attack, the country's prime minister vowed vengeance on those who had helped mount the attack.
The police and security services now believe there are in a desperate race against time to find the gang with fears they could be plotting another outrage.
It was suggested today that some 21 more 'widows' are at large following reports that the women were part of a 30-strong band of suicide bombers trained at a Muslim school in Turkey. Nine have already perished in earlier attacks, Russian media said.
The dead women in Monday's attack are both believed to be aged between 18 and 25 and to have carried the explosives - packed with nails and metal fragments to maximise death and destruction - in shahid belts or handbags.
According to police who have viewed CCTV which has not yet been released, one was said to be mentally retarded.
A source close to the investigators said that the women suicide bombers travelled to Moscow early on Monday by coach from a unnamed Caucasus town, prompting the belief that the attack was by militants from volatile Chechnya.
The women were accompanied by a tall man with Caucasus appearance, dressed in dark blue coat with white marks. He had five days growth of beard. Both women were identified by the driver of the coach.
'One was dressed in black trousers, another in black skirt, black tights and spangled black shoes,' said the Kommersant newspaper. Their appearance indicated they were from the Caucasus region.
The newspaper said the women had been taught by an Islamic militant who had himself being killed last month in an operation by the FSB, which replaced the KGB. 'Around 30 of them were taught in Madrasah (Muslim school) in Turkey and then came back to perform their tasks,' said Kommersant.
'Nine of them have already blown themselves up, the others are being checked now.'...
Cousin marriage will provide Islam with an endless supply of mentally retarded jihad-fodder: http://crombouke.blogspot.com/2010/01/inbreeding-incest-and-cousin-marriage.html
The police and security services now believe there are in a desperate race against time to find the gang with fears they could be plotting another outrage.
If even Russians can't round up Muslims and detain them, (supplemented with extraordinary searches and seizures of properties including mosques) in order to protect their society from a clear and present -- and uniquely fanatical -- danger, it just shows how pervasive the PC MC disease is.
And then I think of Britain.....
It was suggested today that some 21 more 'widows' are at large following reports that the women were part of a 30-strong band of suicide bombers trained at a Muslim school in Turkey.
Now that's a school that's has not let its academic standards slip.
*** 8:39 ***
RINO presidential candidate Tim Pawlenty of Minnesota should be judged on whether academic standards are as good at his publicly funded TiZA Sharia schools. Will Pawlenty's alumi perform as well as Erdogan's?
"...suicide bombers trained at a Muslim school..."
You mean there's a Muslim link? I'm shocked. Shocked!
Hopefully they'll skip the Miranda rights and dispense justice right there on the spot. Get those pigskin-lined coffins ready, Ivan!
http://newstime.co.nz/2010/hamas-in-their-own-voices.html
“Demanding the Ultimate Sacrifice”, Page 227
“… Our Prophet told us about the message of our Lord that
‘Whoever amongst us is killed as a martyr will go to Paradise’ …”
Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 72
Does the EU need any further reason to cancel Turkey's bid for membership?
‘Whoever amongst us is killed as a martyr will go to Paradise’
I wonder if the Arabic of that hadith supports the translation "is killed", or if perhaps "dies" is not more accurate. If the latter, this would help undermine one particular form of apologetics attempted by some Islamic clerics (e.g., the Syrian cleric Al-Tartusi)-- to wit, that suicide-bombing per se is forbidden by Islam because properly speaking an authentic mujaheed must get killed by the enemy he is attacking -- he (or she) must not actually kill himself (or herself) in order to thereby kill the enemy. This, of course, would raise the complex and related question of whether any given attack, by which the Muslim attacker plunges into the enemy lines knowing he (or she) will get killed -- as for example Filipino and SE Asian Muslims practiced for perhaps centuries against Western Colonialists -- is not in fact a type of "suicide by cop" as we call it in the U.S.A. (where a criminal who has lost hope purposefully comes out of hiding with guns blazing precisely in order to court his being killed by the police surrounding him, who of course have no choice but to kill him -- in the Muslim case not in desperation but in the fanatical expectation of avoiding eternal Hell and enjoying eternal Paradise).
Of course, needless to say, any theology that has to delve into such questions is obviously seriously problematic and dangerous for society.
Russo-Turkish relations, never very good, could take on aspects of such relations in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. Peter the Great and Catherine the Great went after Turkish real estate and it was Czar Nicholas I who proposed that the old Ottoman Empire be carved up with Russia getting once-named Constantinople. Perhaps it's time for the Third Rome to claim the Second Rome again (or at least let Greece have it back). Shake things up a bit and put the Mussulman back on his heels where he belongs.
The time for Crusade draws ever nearer.
Allahu Akbar fully translated means Our god is greater (than your god).
*** 8:39 ***
This is the key distinction between Islam and all other belief systems, except perhaps Marxism.
Both systems have nowhere to go but up.
*** 64:16 ***
The Marxist needs more of other people's money to keep going up.
The Moslem needs more fresh meat to intimidate, forcibly convert, enslave, or murder to keep going up.
*** 8:71 ***
Both systems are perpetual motion machines that are succeeding at a level not before seen in human history.
*** 88:8 ***
Just wait until one makes an unfriendly buyout of the other and the two are merged. That'll be the day.
Excellent point on the buyout scenario. Don't think it can't happen. As a former Catholic, I can complain. And believe me, this pope is after that golden ring, no matter who is holding it. Allah...Satan...Mohammed...Jesus. Apologies to sincere Catholics everywhere -- but this one, Benny, seems willing to bargain with the devil at every turn.
That's an interesting point, Hesperado, but I suspect that it's not one that would be appreciated, or even understood, by the mentally retarded suicide bombers...
And I suspect you have to be a few percent below the average IQ to believe the 72 virgins clap-trap anyway.
Since Beslan it's known that Russia is in danger. This new bomb attack is no surprise and the Russians are traumatised which is no surprise either.
I'm a former Catholic too, pretty much a pagan now, but I respectfully take issue with you when you assert that the present Pope "seems willing to bargain with the devil at every turn." Yes, Benedict, when still a Cardinal and back in Munich, didn't handle sexual molestation issues as he should have (the Church in general didn't), but I remain convinced that he is a good and highly intelligent man who has no malice in his heart. He may be guilty of bad judgment but not complicity with evil.
Benedict also ventured to talk about "reciprocity" from the Muslim world some three years ago, never mind his courageously quoting one of the last of the Byzantine Emperors, Manuel Paleologus, who correctly pointed to the inherent violence in Islam, and got your standard number of death threats from Muslims worldwide. Now, I know some think he backed down when he visited the Middle East, but a Pope has to think about the safety of his flock in that troubled region of the world first and foremost. He did more than most any other public figure in the last five years to call attention to the rank hypocrisy of the Islamic world and I doubt he'll ever kiss a Koran as the previous Pope did, though even here I mean no disrespect to John Paul although I am convinced he was too indulgent of the Muslim sphere of mankind.
That's all well and good -- but he is no friend to the Jews as I see it. Nor is he worth his salt as a moral guide of 1.1 billion Catholics if his judgement is this nearsighted in his repeated shielding of guilty pedophile priests. His words have become meaningless when juxtaposed to his actions -- and the potentially generational consequences of those actions.
This is why most monotheistic faiths believe in a final judgement, beyond what happens at our death. The repercussions of our actions sometimes aren't known until generations far removed from them.
But -- peace anyway, bro.
The Russians had better start sending the Muslims to art classes...
If there is NOT already such a pact - Russia and the US (good start) should use their combined intelligence services and the professional tools that are capable and available to both to:
Locate the current extremist and neutralize -
Then locate and neutralize the personnel responsible (Imams; the people profiting from these acts; AND Leaders) who condone and support this type of action for "brainwashing" these folks. {Not much washing needed if based on Brain size}
If the extremist have a beef they can go up against leaders and the military forces BUT not against innocent civilians trying to survive on a day-to-day basis.. These extremist cannot even exist in peace among themselves never less with normal people with different points of view..
Aardvark,
Let's not forget that these homicide-bombers are often well-educated--engineers, architects, medical doctors, neuroscientists, etc. It is probably their Islamic "education" through childhood and their teenage years that contributes to this belief in attaining paradise as payment from Allah for spending their lives for Islam (9:111, 4:66-77). This belief in paradise and the importance of laying down one's life in jihad, especially when Islamic countries are "under attack," is reportedly emphasized by the recruiters in the mosques. (Of course, Islamic terrorist groups deliberately try to provoke strong military reactions from non-Muslim enemies in order to then use this "attack on Muslims" as a recruiting tool and to add to their propaganda jihad). So the recruiters, the so-called radical imams and others, are able to appeal to a belief system already well-established in the minds of these young adult Muslims. The recruits generally already have the motivation and the hatred of the infidel well-established through regular Islamic education. They only need a bit of tweaking on the finer points of jihad theology, and they are ready to go.
...though I don't think that Islamic programming alone is sufficient to produce a suicide/homicide bomber. In any population, most people do not seem to have the individual temperament or personality to become suicide/homicide bombers, no matter how much of the hateful and violent components of Islamic ideology is hammered into them through their education and social conditioning. So generally most Muslims will find non-violent ways to oppose and subjugate non-Muslims, such as by seeking to impose sharia rules over them (which, polls show, the majority of Muslims wants), or by persuading them that true Islam is peaceful and harmless (which most Muslims insist to be the case). These non-violent jihads nonetheless take place in the context of, and can benefit from, the violent jihads (e.g., see the great inhibition in publishing anything critical or "insulting" of Islam, Muhammad, and Muslims). Violent jihads, if taken too far, can sometime damage the propaganda jihad.
Let's not forget that these homicide-bombers are often well-educated--engineers, architects, medical doctors, neuroscientists, etc.
neuroscientists? Scientists?!?
I'm pretty sure that you are quite wrong here. The bulk of these zombies are in fact under-educated (except for the madrassah "education"). Most were very young, primitive and intellectually quite unimpressive. A very few had some years of university education, and even less abandoned a professional career of "engineers, architects, medical doctors, neuroscientists" in order to get to allah's whorehouse.
"As Russia held a day of mourning for the 39 people killed in the underground terror attack" ...
We mourn with Russia, too; and may all those that committed this evil act be caught and brought to justice.
A sad death knoll for American media:
Shepard Smith/Fox News just reported that the perpetrators were from a "Russian rebel group."
PUKE NOW OR FOREVER HOLD YOUR PEACE.
Whoops -- make that 'a sad death knell.'
And here's another: CNN on Code Pink's rude interruption of Karl Rover -- "I guess in America they are trained to do that." Be rude? Does our media hate us?
[revised]
And here's another: CNN's Anderson Cooper on Code Pink's rude interruption of Karl Rove -- "I guess in America they are trained to do that." Be rude? Does our media hate us?
Хью Фицджеральд (Hugh Fitzgerald) в своей статье "Мусульманское население России, и его будущее" (The Muslim population of Russia and the future) задает вопрос: что американские должностные лица думают о последствиях мусульманского большинства в России?
"Привлекают ли американские чиновники внимание их российских коллег к тому, что должны быть выработаны общие позиции против общей угрозы всемирного джихада? Почему бы не сообщить русским, что мы не будем возражать, если российское правительство начнет бороться с потенциальной мусульманской угрозой? И мы, конечно, не будем возражать, потому что мы гораздо больше опасаемся (или должны опасаться) российскую армию под контролем мусульман в 2040, 2050 году, чем эту армию под контролем этнических русских. В конце концов, русские действуют рационально, но чересчур верят в теории заговора якобы грозящего им с Запада, и особенно из Америки."
Он подозревает, что они не обсуждают эти вопросы, потому что ни одна из сторон не беспокоится о них:
"русские должны быть гораздо более обеспокоены относительно демографических изменений, а также относительно возможности захвата мусульманами частей армии через десятилетие, два или три. Но похоже, что они игнорируют эту проблему, так же как это делает американское правительство. ... Русские не учитывают, что ислам приобрел новую привлекательность для некоторых мусульман в России, особенно на Кавказе, но даже и в самой Москве, а также повсеместного распространения щедро финансируемых Саудовским режимом мечетей и пропаганды. ... Многие русские все еще продолжают считать, что давние антирелигиозные кампании в Советском Союзе, когда сопротивление мусульман центральной Азии было подавлено в 1930-х годах, являются перманентным завершением борьбы с внутренней мусульманской угрозой. Но они ошибаются. И они рискуют многим, слишком многим, игнорируя эту угрозу."
Dear Wellington, your assessment of Pope Benedict is right. He's a highly intellígent theologian and a person of integrity. The problem is he likes to turn a blind eye, that's in my opinion a typical German way of handling things, all of us know the history of WWII, the Shoah and other atrocities but the Germans on the one hand want clear the past but on the other they don't want to be bothered.
Archbishop Joseph Ratzinger of München and Freising (his district in Bavaria) kept quiet about sexual molestations and mistreatment of children. I have no idea what he really knew. His famous speech quoting Manuel Paleologus and pointing to the inherent violence of Islam was great, but unfortunately there was no follow-up. He's afraid of responding to the Muslim reaction which was completely unreasonable
An article from the Archives:
Fitzgerald: The Muslim population of Russia, and the future
The Muslim population of Russia has gone up 40% since 1989. Meanwhile the Russian population of Russia has gone down. There are now 25 million Muslims in Russia. And the Central and East European Affairs editor of The Economist has suggested in print that by 2015, 40% of the Russian army may be Muslim.
What do the Russians intend to do about this? Anything? Nothing?
And what do the Americans intend to do in their conversations with the Russians? Will they not mention this? Will they not try to emphasize that common ground should be found against a common threat -- that of the worldwide Jihad? Will they not explain to the Russians that whatever the Russian government does to deal with a potential Muslim threat will get no quarrel from us? And it should get no quarrel from us, because we are, or should be, much more fearful of a Russian military under Muslim control -- by 2040, 2050? -- than of one under the control of the Russians themselves. After all, the Russians are rational actors, though they are far too given to conspiracy theories about the West and especially about America (which has hardly been paying the kind of attention to "encircling Russia" that many Russians apparently are convinced it has).
A poster at Jihad Watch recently asserted that "Russia and the majority of Middle Eastern powers are natural allies." And certainly many people believe this to be the case. But in fact, Russia and the majority of Middle Eastern powers are not natural allies, even if shortsighted Russian leaders may think they are. Any country that relies on oil for its main source of wealth has a stake in the disruption of oil supplies elsewhere. Russia should not wish Iran or Saudi Arabia well. This is principally because they are its economic competitors, supplying the same goods it supplies: oil and natural gas in the case of Iran, oil in the case of Saudi Arabia.
Furthermore, the Russians should be worried far more than they seem to be about demographic changes, and about the possibility of Muslims taking over parts of the military in a decade or two or three. They appear as heedless of this problem as the American government has appeared heedless of the texts and tenets of Islam. The American government remains convinced that the "best way" to deal with the situation is to pour money and men and materiel into Iraq or, for some (choose your poison), into Afghanistan, when the desired results will never come. They will never come, but this will be to the everlasting surprise of the American government, because the nature of Islam, and the threat of Islam, has not been understood.
Many Russians are consumed with conspiracy theories about America. And these conspiracy theories gain credibility from the maladroit American presentation of those policies, and American officials’ seeming inability to explain them in a way that Russians would find palatable. They do not even seem capable of explaining, or perhaps of understanding themselves, that Russia and America share the same potential threats and need to collaborate, rather than cling to or reassert hostile attitudes. Russians, meanwhile, seem to assume that Muslims in Russia will continue to be "Muslims-for-identification-purposes-only" Muslims just like those their parents grew up with. They somehow think that "our" (nashi) Muslims are "different." The same complacent thought is often uttered these days by Americans: the Muslims in America are "quite different" -- better educated, more prosperous -- we are constantly told, and therefore "not a threat," as are the Muslims in Western Europe. Whistling in the dark.
The Russians are not factoring in the renewed appeal of Islam for some Muslims in Russia, especially in the Caucasus but also in Moscow itself, and the effect of Saudi-financed mosques and propaganda all over the place. The effects of the long-ago anti-religious campaign in the Soviet Union, and the crushing of the revolt by Central Asian Muslims who were opposed to this policy in the 1930s, are held by some Russians even today to represent a permanent end to the internal Muslim threat. They are wrong. And they are betting a lot, far too much, on that notion.
[Posted by Hugh on August 17, 2008]
Wow -- who would have thunk it, Hugh!
Translation:
Hugh Fitzgerald (Hugh Fitzgerald) in his article "The Muslim population of Russia and its future" (The Muslim population of Russia and the future) asks the question: what U.S. officials think about the implications of the Muslim majority in Russia?
"Whether the U.S. officials note their Russian colleagues to what should be common positions against the common threat of global jihad, why not tell a Russian, that we will not object if Russia's government will deal with potential Muslim threat?" And we certainly , will not object because we are much more afraid of (or to fear), Russia's army under Muslim control in 2040, 2050, as this army under the control of ethnic Russian. In the end, the Russian act rationally, but they were too believe in conspiracy theories alleged threatening them with the West, and particularly from America. "
He suspects that they do not discuss these questions, because none of the parties is not worried about them:
"Russian should be much more concerned about the demographic changes, as well as on the possible capture of the Muslim army units in a decade or two or three. But it seems that they ignore the problem, as does the American government. ... Russian does not take into account that Islam has acquired new appeal for some Muslims in Russia, especially in the Caucasus, but even in Moscow itself, as well as the ubiquitous generously funded by the Saudi regime, mosques and propaganda. ... Many of the Russian still continue to believe that it is anti-religious campaign in the Soviet Union, when the resistance of Muslim Central Asia was suppressed in 1930, is a continuous struggle with the completion of the internal Muslim threat. But they are wrong. And they run the risk of many, too many people ignore this threat. "
Nevermind -- Googling from Russian to English is still fun.
Babelfish is our bane.
I can just imagine if the story, just out today, about serial killer Rodney Alcala, were to be translated by a hapless machine, and a simple phrase about "Alcala's planned speech" to the court in his own defense being transmogrified, in the target language, as "this plan of the Complutensian Polyglot" -- but with Cardinal Ximenes nowhere in sight.
Thomas_h,
The basis for my statement "...these homicide-bombers are often well-educated--engineers, architects, medical doctors, neuroscientists, etc." is well-documented in the news reports presented at this site, except that my use of "often" was probably a poor choice of words. I don't know the respective percentages of Muslim suicide-homicide bombers of low- vs medium- vs high-IQ, though there have been many reports of well-educated suicide-homicide bombers. That said, I don't deny that many of these people may not be too bright, and many of the latter are not well-educated in the western sense of that term.
Yes, they don't get very far in their real life careers when, in the course of murdering larger numbers of people, they blow themselves up.
I am reminded of something.
The lesser-known works of great American John Quincy Adams. To wit:
“Unsigned essays dealing with the Russo-Turkish War, and on Greece, written while JQA was in retirement, before his election to Congress in 1830”
[Chapters X-XIV (pp. 267-402) in The American Annual Register for 1827-28-29. New York, 1830.]
Andrew Bostom includes some fascinating excerpts from those essays, in this article:
http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=F3F5C99B-338A-4BC1-A4B2-585EFE643619
"John Quincy Adams Knew Jihad"
By Andrew G. Bostom
- FrontPageMagazine.com | Wednesday, September 29, 2004
But what is needed, fast, is a cheap, accessible, pamphlet-form reprint of the complete original text of those essays, some 136 pages; ideally, introduced and suitably annotated by Mr Spencer, Mr Fitzgerald, Mr Raymond Ibrahim, Mr Serge Trifkovic, and Bat Ye'or.
And if John Quincy Adams' "essays on the Russo-Turkish war, and on Greece" (that is, on the Greek struggle for liberation from the Turkish Muslim yoke of oppression) have not yet been translated into Russian, and for that matter, into Greek, then it is high time and more than high time that they were.
Do Russian historians, let alone ordinary Russians, even know that these essays exist? That one of American's greatest statesmen looked with intelligent sympathy upon 19th-century Tsarist Russia's bruising experiences of Muslim perfidy and aggression? That he saw clearly and unstintingly condemned the Turkish Muslim oppression of and atrocities toward the Greeks and other Orthodox Christian peoples?
Imagine the potential impact of the publishing of a slim and elegant booklet containing those essays ('with scholarly introduction and annotations by Mr Spencer, Mr Serge Trifkovic, etc.'), both in English and in Russian translation. Imagine the book-launch, with the ceremonial presentation, to the Russian ambassador, of the Russian translation of JQA's essays, and the gifting of copies to major municipal libraries in the Russian Federation, in the interests of furthering a better understanding between the United States and the Russian people.
For Russian-speaking visitors who, I hope, will post these to other Russian-language websites:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2006/06/hugh-fitzgeralds-islam-for-infidels-in-russian-part-one.html#more
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2006/06/hugh-fitzgeralds-islam-for-infidels-in-russian-part-two.html#more
Heidi,
Among the comments under the second article to which a link is given just above is one in which a Babelfish translation is offered by one commenter. At 2.52 p.m. on the same thread I discuss, as above, the perils-of-Pauline results from such trustfulness, with the mechanically-translated prose always hovering on the brink of comical disaster. And here comes the train, the choo-choo, the kukushka, right now.
Imagine that - comical disaster is my destiny!
I was just trying to help. Actually, I just wanted to be able to read it.
:o
After suicide-homicide attacks like this one, it's not uncommon to read or hear some apologist explaining that these attackers are violating the tenets of Islam by committing suicide.
The problem with this claim is that it does not distinguish between the context of jihad and other contexts. The Quran states that killing is forbidden, except for a "just" cause, such as in retaliation for murder, or as punishment for "spreading mischief" or "waging war" against Allah and his prophet.
I recall an example presented by Raymond Ibrahim from the Sunnah wherein a jihadist volunteered to be strapped onto a catapult and launched at an enemy fort or gate, such that the man would almost certainly be killed upon impact. This jihadist was essentially volunteering to be cannon fodder.
There are additional examples in the Sira and Hadith. For example, one jihadist threw off his mail (protective woven-metal coat) and then plunged with his sword into the enemy with their swords and fought until he was killed.
One jihadist broke the sheath of his sword, signaling that he would not need it again, then took his sword and plunged into the enemy and fought until he was killed.
Another jihadist took his sword and hamstrung his own horse, thus eliminating his own means of escape, and fought until he was killed.
I haven't verified Raymond's example (can't find it at the moment), but in the latter three cases above, Muhammad claims that they were martyred and went to paradise.
H -- I was referring to the wrong posting.
Errata Sheet:
For "2.52 p.m."
Read "11.26 a.m."
The basis for my statement … is well-documented in the news reports presented at this site, except that my use of "often" was probably a poor choice of words
Probably poor? I should think, “completely wrong” would be more accurate.
And so is your choice of “well documented…presented at this site”.
And again: "though there have been many reports of well-educated suicide-homicide bombers".
Nope, there haven’t been many. Extremely few compared to poorly educated.
Had it been many you wouldn’t have admitted just a few lines before that your choice of word “often” was poor.
Really, “not often”, but “many”? Aren't you bothered by the inconsistency here?
Yes, they don't get very far in their real life careers when, in the course of murdering larger numbers of people, they blow themselves up.
Who? "...the well-educated--engineers, architects, medical doctors, neuroscientists, etc."?
All three of them? Absolutely!
Thomas_h,
I think my clarification should have been satisfactory. Anyone who's been reading this site for several years would know that there have been many actual and attempted suicide-homicide bombers who are well-educated. As to the actual proportion (as distinguished from the quantity), I don't know, and don't claim to know.
I don't have statistics on the distribution of IQ or education levels of suicide bombers. If you do, please present them.
The Israelis probably have some data.
After all, when they were being attacked almost daily by suicide-bombers, they did manage to foil quite a few attacks, capturing the wannabe murder-'martyrs' before detonation was achieved. Now they have these creatures sitting in jug in Israel: the ultimate challenge for any Israeli Jewish psychologist or psychiatrist who feels particularly adventurous.
Dumbledores,
Yes, with some googling I've had a look at some reports about the Palestinian suicide-homicide bombers...they tend to have higher education than their peers. Other studies I've looked at regarding other Islamic suicide-homicide terrorists generally point in the direction of the suicide-homicide bombers having more education than average. Over the past couple of hours I've confirmed what I'd already suspected based on my reading of this site over the years, both in terms of numerous dramatic anecdotes and references to studies addressing this issue in general regarding Islamic terrorists' education levels.
Specifically in regards to female suicide attackers (appropriate for this thread), I came across this:
"Reviewing these and other cases, the Office of Intelligence and Operations Coordination, identified the following commonalities among female suicide bombers:
• The majority of female suicide bombers are young, primarily between the ages of 17 and 24, however, the overall range in age for female suicide bombers is from 15-64.
• Female suicide bombers come from various educational, religious, social, and personal backgrounds.
• Education places a role, with the "more educated" females such as lawyers, paramedics, or students accounting for the greatest percentage of suicide attacks.
• Most tend to be of average economic status and are rarely impoverished.
• Some may be "dishonored" through sexual indiscretion, or unable to produce children.
• Some appear motivated by revenge or grief from losing husbands or children."
[Source: Investigativeproject.org, The growing threat from female suicide bombers, March 29, 2010]
Ok, I have a stupid question - much is made of the male martyrs blowing themselves up to enter "paradise" with 72 virgins waiting for them. So what are the female martyrs promised for blowing themselves up or what type of brainwashing lines are presented to them? Muhammad is personally waiting for them or what? Just wondering? lol
Thomas_h seems to have a curious bone to pick.
Muhammad is personally waiting for them or what? Just wondering? lol
Ha Ha Loved that must be waiting personally with his perpetual erection.
Right..If 50% of them (educated or not)blew themselves up that'd be half the battle. But no,gotta get them irrelevant facts right.
There, in a nutshell, is the difference between civilization and islam; we protect and treat the mentally challenged and mentally ill, while the religion of peace uses them to blow up real humans.
Clarification? What clarification?
Repeating an untrue claim, repackaged in a messy, logically inconsistent wrapping doesn’t make it clarification.
And now that useless "Anyone who's been reading this site for several years would know…well educated." is just as substance-less as the original claim, only more comical.
As to the actual proportion (as distinguished from the quantity), I don't know, and don't claim to know.
Good! Besides, no one has been asking you.
I don't have statistics on the distribution of IQ or education levels of suicide bombers. If you do, please present them.
Why should I? To feed your straw-man?
Look, you said "Let's not forget that these homicide-bombers are often well-educated--engineers, architects, medical doctors, neuroscientists, etc."
And I said that this is simply not correct. AND THAT WAS, AND STILL IS, ALL.
You did in fact admit that ”often” is not the right word, but tried to save the mess by immediately adding that there were ”many” reported cases confirming your claim. And that made your reply not just incoherent, but comically incoherent.
Whatever you added later is just as muddled and irrelevant and rather frantic - as if admitting a not very important error would ruin your reputation and bruise your self-esteem. Well, perhaps. What do I know.
I don’t know about you, but I am done with the “discussion”
Thomas_h seems to have a curious bone to pick,
Do I?
With Kinana of Kh., or generally?
If former then absolutely no.
I do hope it's not latter that you mean.
Linda,
What women get in Paradise is to be relieved of their eternal virginity, time after time by perpetually priaptic male "heroes" and "martyrs".
A feature of Islam, which attracts inferior men, is that sexual injury of women is not only condoned, but praised. Sometimes it's mandated. Seldom are men prosecuted for rape, under Shariah, but women who have been victims of rape are sometimes accused of adultery, and are beaten, hanged, or stoned for it.
The only things that can possibly make women become suicide mass murderers are self-loathing, and true mental retardation.
Thomas_h,
No. The curious bone you're picking is your insistence that the category of educated, relatively well-to-do Muslim terrorist is insignificant.
Perhaps women suicide bombers are led into an empty room by a pious example of islamic womenhood, and unbeknowst to the Imam that put sent her to give a pep talk to the suicide wannabe, tells her instead that her great reward will be to lop off every martyrs whatsis before he gets to the 72 virgins. After which virgins and martyrs break open a keg of Sam Adams and invite Big Daddy Mohammud in for more of
the same. With that incentive any smart Islamic lass would join. Lets hear it for the ever creative ladies !
Hesperado, please read again and see that I am replying to Kinana's claim regarding a specific category of terrorist, namely suicide bombers.
I, again, maintain that that type of terrorism is very rarely, if at all, chosed by,...well-educated--engineers, architects, medical doctors, neuroscientists, etc.
To say it happens "often" is not only not correct, but betrays person's innocence about the structure of the institution of islamic (and not only islamic) terror. The dumb and disposable do what is simplest and effective by blowing themselves up while the smart take care of planning, coordinating, logistics etc. and participate in armed actions requiring skill and intelligence.
That kind of basic common sense is available to moslems too.
Dumbledore's Army wrote:
And if John Quincy Adams' "essays on the Russo-Turkish war, and on Greece" (that is, on the Greek struggle for liberation from the Turkish Muslim yoke of oppression)
.....................
I've found that this last is almost completely forgotten in the West. While it is relatively well-known that Spain was once Muslim-ruled (even if the nature of that rule is much misunderstood), I've found that very few people know that the Balkans, Sicily, and Greece had all suffered Muslim conquest.
I had thought that I had a fairly good understanding of the history of the West when I entered university. When I was studying 19th century poetry and art, however, I kept running across references to Greece's struggle for independence, which made no sense to me. Most of my professors were of surprisingly little help, so I had to do my own research.
Greece's struggle for freedom was actually quite well known in the West at the time, though—and many Europeans and Americans threw their support to the cause.
English poet Lord Byron was a hero to the Greeks. Here is French painter Eugene Delecroix's Greece on the Ruins of Thessaloniki:
http://members.fortunecity.com/fstav1/1821/lagrece.jpg
Gravenimage
Is this the picture you meant to link? (The link you gave didn't work for me, so I did a quick google round and found another).
"Greece Expiring on the Ruins of Missalonghi"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Eugène_Ferdinand_Victor_Delacroix_017.jpg
Thomas_h,
I didn't say the homicide-bombers (suicide bombers) were generally smarter than their leaders; nor would I assume that. What I meant, as per my clarification, is that there are "many" who are well-educated. And I didn't say "most." As I said, I don't know what the relative proportions or percentages are viz. high, medium, low education groups.
Some examples/excerpts of research and references to research support my claim re "many." [Note: I don't necessarily buy the explanations these researchers give on any other issue; I'm just noting what they found in relation to education level issue (i.e., excluding madrassa-type education)].
Example #1
Deprivation Theory offers an answer
Basel Saleh
Jul 2, 2003 5:23 UT
"[…] Krueger and Maleckova concluded that there is an inconclusive relationship between political violence and the level of education and the economic background of participating militants. One of their main findings is that Palestinian suicide bombers come from relatively well-to-do families and are highly educated (referring to some college education).
[…]
I also used a similar regression to Krueger’s and Maleckova only to find a significant negative relationship between the level of income per capita and the number of attacks, after controlling for other variable that measure revenge motive. As for the level of education, it is accurate to say that Palestinian suicide bombers are relatively well educated with many having completed or were in the process of completing their college education."
[Source: interdisciplines.org]
Example #2
An Edge Discussion of BEYOND BELIEF:
Science, Religion, Reason and Survival
Salk Institue, La Jolla November 5-7, 2006
Scott Atran, Anthropologist, University of Michigan; Author, In Gods We Trust: The Evolutionary Landscape of Religion
"In our global jihadi database, which we are developing under a defense department contract, and which is perhaps the most comprehensive open source database on the subject, we find that most jihadis are "born again" and come to religion late in life, and only very seldom through mosques or madrassahs. And among jihadis outside Europe, and in particular suicide bombers, science education is a strong positive predictor (the most representative educational categories of suicide bomber - a finding independently confirmed by Oxford sociologist Diego Gambetta- are engineer and physician, be it for Al Qaeda or Hamas)."
[Online Source: mygodisbetterthanyourgod.com]
Example #3 [note there appears to be some mixing of suicidal and non-suicidal terrorists in this example]
The Role of Religion in the Generation of Suicide Bombers
Brief Treatment and Crisis Intervention Advance Access originally published online on April 9, 2008
Brief Treatment and Crisis Intervention 2008 8(2):204-208; doi:10.1093/brief-treatment/mhn003
Sadik H. Kassim, PhD
"[...]Lack of secular education is often cited as a causative factor in the generation of suicide bombers. Within such an explanatory framework, Madrassas (Islamic religious schools) are considered breeding grounds of suicide bombers. For example, the July 2004 report of the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States (the 9/11 Commission Report) describes Madrassas as "incubators of violet extremism." Former Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld in a widely cited memo on the global war on terror writes: "Are we capturing, killing or deterring and dissuading more terrorists every day than the Madrassas and the radical clerics are recruiting, training, and deploying against us?" (Rumsfeld, 2007). Yet, analysis by Bergen and Pandey (2006) reveals that of the 79 terrorists responsible for five of the worst anti-Western suicide attacks—the World Trade Center bombing in 1993, the Africa embassy bombings in 1998, the September 11 attacks, the Bali nightclub bombings in 2002, and the London Bombings in 2005—only in rare cases were Madrassa graduates involved. All those credited with masterminding the attacks had university degrees. Of the remaining terrorists, 54% had some college education or graduated with a degree compared to 52% of Americans who can claim the same. Moreover, 48% of those that attended college attended schools in the West; only 11% of the terrorists examined had attended a Madrassa.
Bergen P, Pandey S. The Madrasa Scapegoat. The Washington Quarterly, 29(2) (2006) 11:7–125.[find it @ Stanford]
"A common stereotype is that terrorism is a product of poor, desperate, naive, single young men from third world countries, vulnerable to brainwashing and recruitment into terror. Empirical evidence, however, suggests otherwise. Forensic Psychiatrist and former CIA intelligence officer Sageman (2005) has compiled the most in-depth biographical database on members of global terrorist networks to date. Based on data from over 400 biographies, Sageman finds that 75% of the terrorists examined came from upper- or middle-class backgrounds. The vast majority—90%—came from caring intact families. As a group, the terrorists were well educated with over 63% having some college education. Nearly 73% were married and the majority had children. Only 1% of the sample had hints of a thought disorder, which is below the base rate for thought disorder worldwide. The only significant finding was that the future terrorists felt isolated, lonely, and emotionally alienated; otherwise, their heterogeneity precluded the detection of any common characteristic specific to them (Sageman, 2004)."
Sageman M. Understanding terror networks. (2004) Philadelphia, PA: University of Pennsylvania Press.
Sageman M. The normality of global Jihadi terrorism. The Journal of International Security Affairs (2005) 8:1–10.[find it @ Stanford]
continued...
Example #4 [9/11]
"The profiles of the hijackers chosen for the 9/11 attacks are consistent with this notion. Two-thirds of the hijackers had pursued formal academic studies, and at least seven
of the 19 hijackers had formal flight training.2"
"2 Twelve hijackers were either graduates or were enrolled in academic institutions. While Ahmed Alghamdi entered the United States on a student visa, we do not know whether he was actually enrolled in an academic institution, and accordingly we do not classify him as a hijacker pursuing a higher education."
[Online Source: Human Capital and the Productivity of
Suicide Bombers Efraim Benmelech and Claude Berrebi, 2007.]
Example #5 [same as above source]
"[...]While suicide bombers are on average more
educated than the general Palestinian population, our estimate of higher education among suicide bombers is lower than the figures reported by Berrebi (2003) and Krueger and Maleckova (2003). Berrebi (2003) finds that 55 percent of the suicide bombers for whom he was able to find information on education had or were persuing higher education. Berrebi’s figure is more than three times our estimate of 18 percent.7 We suspect that selection bias may drive these
differences in the estimates of education among suicide bombers. For example, Berrebi’s (2003, footnote 36) data do not include suicide bombers who were caught or failed in their mission, or suicide bombers that did not succeed in
killing others—who tend to be less educated than those who do not fail in their missions. Out of the 148 suicide bombers in our data, 42 (28.4 percent) were either caught or failed in their mission. Another potential explanation is that Berrebi (2003) uses data on suicide bombing attacks between 1993 and 2002, and it is possible that due to excess demand for suicide bombers during the al-Aqsa intifada, terror organizations were less selective in recruiting potential suicide bombers during this period (2001–2005). In either case, while we confirm earlier findings that Palestinian suicide bombers are more educated than average for Palestinian society, our estimates of the educational attainment of suicide bombers are lower than previous estimates."
Example #6 [Glasgow airport suicide bombing attempt]
"Pardon me Dr, are you a terrorist?
Two people were arrested at Glasgow Airport at the scene of the attack:
1. Dr Kafeel Ahmed, who was engulfed in flames and was in a severe condition, was treated for 90% burns at the Royal Alexandra Hospital in Paisley. Ahmed was placed under arrest by armed police, the hospital’s accident unit was closed to further patients, and army disposal experts were called in to carry out a controlled explosion of a suspect car. A few days later Ahmed was moved to the Glasgow Royal Infirmary where there is a specialist burns unit. It is thought that Ahmed was the driver of the jeep. Ahmed is originally from Bangalore, India. He is an engineer with a PhD in design and technology.
2. Bilal Talal Abdul Samad Abdulla was taken to Govan police station. Abdulla, a 27-year-old Baghdad-trained doctor, is believed to have been in the passenger seat of the Jeep Cherokee. Abdulla was born in Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire, where his father also practised as a doctor.
Two additional people, 26-year-old Mohammed Jamil Abdelqader Asha (a doctor) and his 27-year-old wife (Dana), had their vehicle forced off the road by police between 2am and 4am on the 1st July 2007, and were arrested on the M6 motorway, near Cheshire. Asha was a native Palestinian who carried a Jordanian passport, and lived in Sunningdale Grove, in Newcastle-under-Lym; he qualified in Jordan in 2004 and practised as a neurologist at the North Staffordshire Hospital in Stoke-on-Trent. Asha was taken for questioning to the Paddington Green Police Station in London.
A 5th terror suspect, a 26-year-old man, was arrested in Liverpool after a car was stopped in the Lime Street area. The man was a 26-year-old postgraduate trainee doctor from Bangalore, India.
[Source: www.airflights.to/Airports/UK/Glasgow-Airport.php5]
Example #7 [note: this source too apparently mixes suicidal with non-suicidal jihadists]
D i e g o G a m b e t t a
a n d S t e f f e n H e r t o g
Why are there so many Engineers
among Islamic Radicals?
"We searched wherever we could for information on each of the 404 individuals in our sample, and found some biographical information for 326 cases and educational information for 284. Out of these, 196 had higher education, whether finished or unfinished, and at least 37 studied in Western countries; the median date of birth is 1968. The share of individuals with higher education appears impressive: 69.0 %. This is much higher than the tertiary enrolment rates in the various countries of origin (12.2 % in the Arab world in the 1980s; Longuenesse 1990, p. 329). Only in the South East Asian groups was the level of education lower than in the rest of the sample."
"We were able to find the subject of study for 178 of the 196 cases engaged in higher education at some point (Figure 1). Unsurprisingly, we found that the second most numerous group was composed of 34 individuals who pursued Islamic studies. Yet, the group that comes first by far are indeed the engineers: 78 out of 178 individuals had studied this subject. This means that 44 % of those whose type of degree we know were engineers. On the whole, the individuals who
studied for what we may call ‘‘elite degrees’’ – engineering, medicine, and science, generally the most selective programs in the Islamic world – represent 56.7 %."
May God give Black Widow His Paradise..
amen..
Kinana,
It all looks very impressive, but has nothing to do with your original specific claim and my comment to that claim.
By now I am quite uninterested in repeating the same over and over again so, please, read my reply to Hesperado.
I am sorry, I don't wish to be rude it is really not my style, but now I must hang up on you.
Thomas_h,
"The dumb and disposable do what is simplest and effective by blowing themselves up while the smart take care of planning, coordinating, logistics etc. and participate in armed actions requiring skill and intelligence.
That kind of basic common sense is available to moslems too."
Your theory here in part seems to presume that educated and relatively middle class Muslims are incapable of the fanaticism that leads to the grotesquely unusual tactic of suicide-bombing. As for the pragmatic concern that the planning requires those with brains who need to live to plan again, I don't doubt that this is a factor; but I also don't doubt that wherever, and whenever, this factor need not exert its limitations, any given Muslim no matter how well-educated, no matter how wealthy, no matter how seemingly literate and cultured, no matter how Westernized, no matter how seemingly nice and friendly is capable of embracing suicide-bombing with fervent fanaticism and zeal.
In order to protect our societies, we must assume the worst, and the less plausible, as equally possible as the more "common sensical" that comports to our non-Islamic social psychology. Muslim have proven to be as ingenious as rodents who find ever new ways to get through walls. If today women and children and even retarded individuals are able to squeak through checkpoints and therefore penetrate in order to suicide-bomb, tomorrow a Muslim scientist or CEO or diplomat or even head of state, ushered in to have a meeting with the President of the United States, will be chosen as the ideally undetected vehicle for a suicide-bombing -- and that Muslim scientist, CEO, or politician will gladly and whole-heartedly volunteer.
Hesperado,
First of all I don’t advance(despite that "it seems" to you - as you say)a theory beyond quite a simple, if not trivial, observation applicable to any fighting organization, which is that the smart do smart jobs while the dumb and disposable do dumb jobs. You don’t waste smart and competent on jobs the dumb can do - for the simple reason that few are smart while there is always endless supply of the dumb. The jihad organizers don’t ignore that fact. They are not that dumb.
How did my observation lead you to impression that I “…presume that educated and relatively middle class Muslims are incapable of the fanaticism that leads to the grotesquely unusual tactic of suicide-bombing” is, honestly, beyond me.
As for your assessment that “… wherever, and whenever, this factor need not exert its limitations, any given Muslim no matter how well-educated, no matter how wealthy, no matter how seemingly literate and cultured, no matter how Westernized, no matter how seemingly nice and friendly is capable of embracing suicide-bombing with fervent fanaticism and zeal.” – whether I share it or not (I, of course, don’t) is irrelevant to the original subject I made a mistake to comment on.
(I hope you will not retort with “ a Moslem who is not “capable of embracing suicide-bombing with fervent fanaticism and zeal” is not a REAL Moslem.)
In order to protect our societies, we must assume the worst, and the less plausible, as equally possible as the more "common sensical" that comports to our non-Islamic social psychology. Muslim have proven to be as ingenious as rodents who find ever new ways to get through walls.
True, but you’re preaching to the choir.
AS for the likeness of “…tomorrow a Muslim scientist or CEO or diplomat or even head of state, ushered in to have a meeting with the President of the United States, will be chosen as the ideally undetected vehicle for a suicide-bombing -- and that Muslim scientist, CEO, or politician will gladly and whole-heartedly volunteer…” - it is very, very remote.
This is the stuff films are made off. Or, rather would be made off if we had the film industry on our side.
It would be jihad’s own suicide. They are not ready for that yet. We don’t give them the reason.
Thomas_h,
"First of all I don’t advance(despite that "it seems" to you - as you say)a theory beyond quite a simple, if not trivial, observation"
What you wish to call it, is not pertinent to our disagreement.
"...applicable to any fighting organization, which is that the smart do smart jobs while the dumb and disposable do dumb jobs. You don’t waste smart and competent on jobs the dumb can do - for the simple reason that few are smart while there is always endless supply of the dumb. The jihad organizers don’t ignore that fact. They are not that dumb."
There are situations where smarts will not preclude the unlikely types of Muslim from volunteering -- as when deep infiltration into high-security areas is required (e.g., the Jordanian doctor who was trusted by the CIA, and therefore allowed into a high-security compound under inadeqaute security provisions, and 17 CIA agents were mass-murdered by that suicide-bombing doctor; or the MIT-trained female Muslim scientist who was allowed access to loaded weapons in a secure area with our and Pakistani personnel present, and she proceeded to try to mass murder as many as she could, obviously heedless to the high likelihood she would be killed in the process).
"How did my observation lead you to impression that I “…presume that educated and relatively middle class Muslims are incapable of the fanaticism that leads to the grotesquely unusual tactic of suicide-bombing” is, honestly, beyond me."
I didn't say that you presume those things; I said your theory (or whatever you want to call it) presumes those things.
"As for your assessment that “… wherever, and whenever, this factor need not exert its limitations, any given Muslim no matter how well-educated, no matter how wealthy, no matter how seemingly literate and cultured, no matter how Westernized, no matter how seemingly nice and friendly is capable of embracing suicide-bombing with fervent fanaticism and zeal.” – whether I share it or not (I, of course, don’t) is irrelevant to the original subject I made a mistake to comment on."
Not irrelevant to me; for your theory tends to inculcate a mindset where such deadly likelihoods are unduly minimized, and therefore we will not implement policies in order to try to anticipate and prevent them.
"AS for the likeness of “…tomorrow a Muslim scientist or CEO or diplomat or even head of state, ushered in to have a meeting with the President of the United States, will be chosen as the ideally undetected vehicle for a suicide-bombing -- and that Muslim scientist, CEO, or politician will gladly and whole-heartedly volunteer…” - it is very, very remote.
This is the stuff films are made off. Or, rather would be made off if we had the film industry on our side."
See? If you have that attitude, and if most of those responsible for our safety have that attitude, we will set ourselves up to be caught off guard with horrific consequences. You sorely underestimate the sincere, and unique, fanaticism of Muslims. You tend to continue to superimpose our psychology onto them, without any apparent integration of an area of their minds and societies that are utterly unlike ours.
"It would be jihad’s own suicide. They are not ready for that yet. We don’t give them the reason."
And when will they be ready? You seem to know them so well, I hope you alert Homeland Security the instant you come to your magical knowledge.
And besides, the danger is not only coming from well-planned terrorist cells, but from more or less lone wolves and/or Sudden Jihadists (e.g., that MIT scientist I mentioned above, who just suddenly was seized with the zeal to mass-murder and had the opportunity as Infidels around her were stupid enough to think she wouldn't take advantage of loaded weapons in her vicinity). So my scenario of the Muslim diplomat who decides to strap himself with (or insert into himself) an explosive in order to mass-murder a Congressional meeting etc. would be dismissed only by those who haven't really digested the full horror and the full fanaticism of Muslims.
Thomas_h indicates he wants out the discussion with me. That's fine. I, for my part, will continue to examine the issue. Thomas_h still takes issue with my claim:
"Let's not forget that these homicide-bombers are often well-educated--engineers, architects, medical doctors, neuroscientists, etc."
Note about my earlier clarification:
My intended meaning of "often" was "many times,"* i.e., many times we jihadwatchers have seen examples of well-educated people such as engineers, medical doctors, architects, neuroscientists, etc., act as jihadist martyr suicide-homicide bombers. Thomas_h objected to this claim, so I clarified that often was a poor choice of words, I meant "many," and that I did not mean this in the sense of a proportion of percentage. (I meant "many" in the sense of a large unspecified quantity).** Thomas_h still objected to this, and in his latest statement on the subject said "...that type of terrorism [suicidal attack] is very rarely, if at all, chosed by,...well-educated--engineers, architects, medical doctors, neuroscientists, etc. Yet he claims this after all the evidence I presented above, as well as other evidence that should be part of a Jihadwatcher's general knowledge base. Some examples should come to mind: Mohamed Atta had a degree in architecture; the pair of would-be suicidal attackers who crashed into the Glasgow airport were an engineer and a medical doctor, respectively; the Jordanian double-agent who blew himself up killing several CIA agents was a medical doctor, and alleged homicide-suicide attacker Aafia Siddiqui is a neuroscientist. (The latter may or may not have been actually planning to blow herself up, or going out in a blaze of glory, besides killing others--the case is still in progress). These are some of the sorts of people I had in mind, but then we also have those references to studies cited by Robert here on JihadWatch indicating that jihad terrorists are generally better educated. (I'm also familiar with other studies, though I hadn't examined the issue in detail before). So this is the general impression I had in mind, when I made my claim, that there are many such well-educated Muslims who become jihadist suicidal attackers.
*Verified by checking my 1973 American Heritage dictionary.
**As above.
While my initial point was overstated because of the example categories that I cited explicitly (particularly regarding architects and neuroscientists, i.e., I can find only one of each!), the general gist of my claim, and indeed the larger point, is correct. That is, there are "many" well-educated people who are Muslims who become suicide attackers or bombers. By well-educated, I assume that means college, university, and post-graduate level education. The research I've cited above bears this out. Thomas_h seems to think that the examples I listed would have to be of people who'd had well-established careers, but I didn't say that, and that wasn't my point. I said they were well-educated, and listed some of their areas of specialization for examples.
Take a look at the research and expert opinion above that I've presented...
Are there, as I suggest, "many" people who are well-educated who end up as jihadist suicide bombers/attackers?
Or are there, as Thomas claims, "very few," "very rarely," "if at all" such well-educated people who end up as jihadist suicide Bombers/attackers?
Thomas is focused on a particular interpretation of my initial claim, instead of the interpretation that I, as the author of it, provided. I think the data above weigh heavily in favor of the general point that there are "many" such suicide bombers/attackers who were "well-educated." And this point is important, because it establishes that it is not ignorance or deprivation that leads these people to belief in Islam, jihad, martyrdom, etc., but rather the Islamic beliefs which may be held in the same mind of the person who might have quite sophisticated knowledge in other areas. Such people are especially dangerous (as Hesperado notes above).
This debate would be easier to settle with more precise definitions (instead of "many" and "rarely," for example).
apologies for the typo "proportion or percentage"
"(I meant "many" in the sense of a large unspecified quantity)."
Considering the unique degree and quality of both the fanaticism and the murderousness of Muslims, any number should be sufficient to implement large-scale anticipatory measures to prevent such types of Muslims from gaining any access to any place where they could mass murder people -- with a special focus on high-security areas where such types would be more likely to be granted such access.
If any number is agreed to be sufficient for such preventative measures, then certainly if we agree that number is a large unspecific quantity, that only underscores the need for those measures.
Thomas_h's theory and attitude, however, seems to tend to render whatever the number might be to a degree sufficiently negligible as to hinder any significant marshalling of resources, manpower and intelligence for prevention. That in my estimation is reckless and myopic to the degree and nature of the deadliness of Muslims.
Oh no...I don't believe it.
I'm out.
Incredibly, Thomas_h still seems satisfied with his quantifiers "very few," "very rarely," "if at all" in describing the number of well-educated people who end up as jihadist suicide Bombers/attackers.
"If at all"?
Isn't there anything Thomas_h might want to revise in his descriptions?
Incredibly, you still can\t see I will not admit something I don\t believe is correct.
And why in the world should I?
For pointing out that you assertion "...these homicide-bombers are often well-educated--engineers, architects, medical doctors, neuroscientists, etc. "is simply not correct?
Do you honestly think that the material you provided to prove your judgment really does it?
Come on, you must know that anything you get from Google comes from the keyboard of the beholder. You ask for what you want to see, discard what you don’t want to see, and - voila!
But look, there have been over 15000 terrorists attack since Sept. 11 2001.
There have been more than 1000 suicide bombings in Iraq alone resulting in death of over 10000 Iraqis and some American and allied troops.
You will dig out of that more than thousand strong crowd ONE neuroscientist, ONE just scientist, ONE medical doctor, ONE architect and I will take back the “if at all”.
And please don’t throw at me reports averring “relatively well educated” this or that.
What is “relatively well educated” in Yemen, Pakistan, University of Gaza etc. or “highly educated” in Zanzibar is called “barely educated” where you and I live.
Otherwise I am really not terribly interested wasting time defending this or refuting that sentence. Especially when words are put in my mouth intentions in my heart and theories in my head.
What nonsense…
Thomas_h,
I didn't dig those particular examples out of a crowd; my initial comment was based on what I'd read on JihadWatch (which references news sites and studies) over the years. Also note that there's an "etc" in the original statement, covering other possible categories within the larger category of "well-educated."
There is a limited amount of time to do this, and the sources on the internet mostly limit themselves to general statements. The data mentioned by Scott Atran and others in my examples above apparently do not provide illustrative examples of individual suicide bombers, nor do they provide numbers of suicide bombers in each area of specialty. (These may yet be available in other sources). If you're asking me to produce a list of 50 or whatever number of names (what would satisfy the loose term "many"?) with academic credentials for each bomber, I'm not going to do that because I probably have not the time and money to do that, and detailed lists may not even be available. I've made my point above re many "well-educated."
You write:
"Especially when words are put in my mouth intentions in my heart and theories in my head."
No, I did not put any words in your mouth, etc.; I quoted you. Otherwise, I clarified my own views and my own original statement, and even made a correction to part of it (re neuroscientists and architects)--a correction that you perhaps did not notice.
Look, I expect that when you debate me here you are not only going to take into account the evidence and conclusions of experts that I presented, but I also expect that you will do the minimum of presenting evidence to support your claims. Surely you have to admit that your statement "if at all" is just wrong, as it is falsified by even a single case. That you refuse to correct your statement "if at all" is remarkable.
Thomas_h says:
"Come on, you must know that anything you get from Google comes from the keyboard of the beholder. You ask for what you want to see, discard what you don’t want to see, and - voila!"
Well, surely you must have read the examples of experts that I quoted above, such as Atran, Basel Saleh, the Investigative project, and others. Are their opinions somehow not valid because I obtained them through Google? If there are other sources that support your claim viz. "rarely" or "if at all" etc. then please present them.
As I indicated earlier, I don't deny that many suicide bombers are not well educated. But many are well-educated. I don't see why that is so difficult to admit.
I really have no time or inclination to google around for material supportive of my opinion that suicide bombers are VERY SELDOM IF AT ALL highly educated people - which contradicts an odd claim you are so desperately defending.
Nevertheless, I decided to pick the first one (of many) that seems to agree with my opinion, and certainly doesn’t support yours. I did it not so much to try to prove you wrong, because in most cases google generated “evidence” can not settle a debate, and, I think, believing it can is quite naïve. Rather I did it to demonstrate to you that what you had collected is contradicted with what I have. And vice versa, of course.
Here is one bit:
The suicide bombers who have killed 10,000 people in Iraq, including hundreds of American troops, usually are alienated young men from large families who are desperate to stand out from the crowd and make their mark, according to a U.S. military study.
As long suspected, most come from outside Iraq. Saudi Arabia, home of most of the 9/11 hijackers, is the single largest source. And the pipeline is continually replenished by al-Qaida in Iraq's recruiters.
The study, obtained by The Associated Press, profiles the suicide bombers and their support system based in part on interrogations of 48 foreign fighters who were captured or surrendered. The U.S. command is trying to understand the system, including al-Qaida in Iraq's recruiting, training and transportation network, so it can be disrupted before the bombers strike.
According to the summary, interrogators concluded that most foreign fighters are Sunni Muslim men from 18 to 30, with the mean age of 22. They are almost always single males with no children, and tend to be students or hold blue-collar jobs ranging from taxi drivers to construction and retail sales.
The summary went on to describe the majority of the fighters as having six to 12 years of schooling, with very few having gone to college. Most come from families in the poor or middle-classes and have six to eight siblings.
"In these large family groups, individuals seek ways to 'make their mark,' to set them apart. In many ways, entering jihad gives sons a way to show themselves unique in a large family," the summary said.
End so on and so on…
I have a good friend - an Israeli psychologist, whose son has served in Israel’s border police and whose insight into the mind and motives of a “palestinian arab suicide bomber” is based on both the Israeli research and “in the field” observations of his son and his friends. I had a long phone conversation with him a few hours ago, (he has retired and has heaps of time).
Now he doesn’t contest that an average “Palestinian” suicide bombers may have had more education than a typical Palestinian Arab, but he is positive that the belief that suicide bombers are often “highly educated” is totally wrong.
My friend is a highly intelligent, accomplished psychologist and I have good reason to trust both his knowledge of the subject and his integrity. Even if it clashes with your intuitions and your Google research.
Anyway, now I am REALLY, out of here
I said many suicide-homicide bombers/attackers are well-educated, and I've clarified what I meant by that. I'm glad that you discussed this issue with your friend, but that is anecdotal and I can't place him as a more reliable authority than those who I cited, and even if he was more reliable, that would not falsify my claim re "many" and "well-educated." That some subsamples, such as the limited-time Iraq theater subsample you cited, may differ, hardly invalidates my point, which refers only to "many", and which draws upon multiple samples. You will note also some of my sources indicate that there is no clear relationship between education level and a Muslim becoming a suicidal attacker, and as I recall one of them said the South Asian sample tended to be less educated. But that's irrelevant to my point, which as that there are many well-educated suicide-bombers. (Note again: That says nothing about the overall proportion).
This issue will not be decided between us until one of us gets access to actual full lists of names and academic credentials of suicide bombers. I think we both realize we don't have time to do that.
And after all this, you still say "if at all".
Thomas_h quotes a military study of suicide bombers in the Iraq theater:
"most foreign fighters are Sunni Muslim men from 18 to 30, with the mean age of 22. They are almost always single males with no children, and tend to be students or hold blue-collar jobs ranging from taxi drivers to construction and retail sales.
The summary went on to describe the majority of the fighters as having six to 12 years of schooling, with very few having gone to college. "
There is an apparent contradiction present in the above quote. Can anyone spot it?
Let's break it down:
1. "most foreign fighters
2. "are ...from 18 to 30, with the mean age of 22."
3. "They ...tend to be students or hold blue-collar jobs ranging from taxi drivers to construction and retail sales." [Note: most college students I have known, including grad students in philosophy or classics, held "blue collar" jobs like painting houses or stacking boxes in a fishery, etc., in order to make ends meet while trying to establish a foothold in an education career]
4. "the majority of the fighters [had] six to 12 years of schooling, with very few having gone to college. "
The crux of the apparent contradiction is if the mean age is 22 (with an upper range limit of age 30) and they "tend to be students", then how can "very few" of them be college students? Do Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Jordan all have peculiar school systems where men in their 20s attend high school or grade school for children?
Thomas_h's article appears to be from a secondary source that talks about a study Mohammed Hafez, called Suicide Bombers in Iraq, that was apparently written up as a book.
Another source [mcclatchydc.com] describes a bit more about Hafez's methodology in studying the Iraq theater sample of suicide bombers:
"Hafez and Pape said Iraqi Shiite Muslims hadn't carried out suicide attacks so far and instead had restricted their role in the sectarian violence to militia activity.
Pinning down the nationalities of suicide bombers can be tricky because they leave few physical remains, and extremist groups often don't claim the attacks until much later. The U.S. military says it does some DNA testing to investigate the bombers' identities.
Both researchers relied on extremist Web sites, "martyr" videos, news reports and statements to compile the data on nationalities. Hafez also gathered some information from online chats and discussion forums."
Online chats and discussion forums? I wonder if this is where he obtained the information about educational status?
p.s. Also note that the particular Iraq sample cited by Thomas_h refers to the education levels of the "fighters" generally; it does not refer to the education levels of the suicide bombers within that sample specifically.
One of the main ways of "recruiting" female suicide bombers is to gang rape a Muslim woman and give her the choice of dying an "honored" martyr for Islam (i.e. suicide bomber), or to have her face cut from ear to mouth, called a "mooney," as a mark of defilement so that any Muslim male who sees her has the "right" to rape and kill her. In Islam, women are only equal to men while they are acting as soldiers of Islam. Our failure to rescue women from Islam comes back to haunt us here.