The Michael Coren Show: "Just As the Tamil Tigers Don't Define All of the Sri Lankans" (Part III)

We are now ready to complete our joint viewing of The Michael Coren show. Please take the time, once again, to watch both segments above. My previous discussion of these segments is here and here.

It's back to Michael Coren, talking now to Steve Gilchrist right there in the studio. Gilchrist is a center-right politician, or was. He is, I gather, a business man and solid citizen reeking of respectability, positively putrid with probity. He is someone who, in the language of those who live in Eastern Canada (mind your Ps and Qs now, lest Hochelaga and surroundings slip out of the Federation), amidst what Voltaire dismissed as "quelques arpents de neige," might in far-off France have been called "l'Honnête Homme" -- not in the 17th century French sense but in the etiolated later sense of a Good Burgher. You often meet his type, even if you try to avoid them - or did I make this point before? - at alumni gatherings.

Gilchrist is, physically, a large and even beefy man. And his manner is that of someone who doesn't tolerate nonsense, cuts right to the chase, is unafraid to tell it just as he sees it, no matter what anyone thinks. That's right, that about sums up Steve Gilchrist, not one to mince words, so he tells us, not someone afraid to tell the truth. And what is it that no-nonsense unafraid-to-tell-the-truth-when-all-around-him are so afraid, tells us? Well, he tells us - take a look at 5.11-5.20 - that nowhere in the Qur'an is anyone told to kill Unbelievers, Infidels. Just like that. It's clear. It's obvious. Steve Gilchrist knows this. I, we, don't quite know how he knows this, for surely, if he read the Qur'an, he must have come across hundreds of Jihad verses. He must have read Sura 9, he must have read 9.29 and 9.5 at least. Did none of the following verses ever swim into his Canadian ken?

Qur'an 9:111: "The believers...shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain..."

Qur'an 9:5: "When the sacred forbidden months for fighting are past, fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, torture them, and lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."

Qur'an 5:33: "The punishment for those who wage war against Allah and His Prophet and perpetrate mischief [reject Islam or oppose its goals] in the land, is to murder them, to hang them, to mutilate them, or banish them. Such is their disgrace. They will not escape the fire, suffering constantly."

Qur'an 47:4: "So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates. That (shall be so); and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have exacted what is due from them, but that He may try some of you by means of others; and (as for) those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will by no means allow their deeds to perish."

Qur'an 21:44: "Do they not see Us advancing, gradually reducing the land (in their control), curtailing its borders on all sides? It is they who will be overcome."

Qur'an 47.35: "And be not slack so as to cry for peace and you have the upper hand, and Allah is with you, and He will not bring your deeds to naught."

Qur'an 3:56: "As for those disbelieving infidels, I will punish them with a terrible agony in this world and the next. They have no one to help or save them."

Qur'an 4.89: "They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper."

Qur'an 2:191: "...kill the disbelievers wherever we find them."

Qur'an 9.33: "He it is Who sent His Apostle with guidance and the religion of truth, that He might cause it to prevail over all religions."

Qur'an 2:193: "And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah."

Qur'an 8:71: "And if they intend to act unfaithfully towards you, so indeed they acted unfaithfully towards Allah before, but He gave you mastery over them."

Qur'an 8:12: "Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: 'I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.'"

Qur'an 8:58: "If you apprehend treachery from any group on the part of a people (with whom you have a treaty), retaliate by breaking off (relations) with them. The infidels should not think they can bypass (Islamic law or the punishment of Allah). Surely they cannot escape."

Qur'an 8:39: "So, fight them till all opposition ends and the only religion is Islam."

Qur'an 8:59: "The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them. They are your enemy and Allah's enemy."

Qur'an 8:60: "Prepare against them (non-Muslims) whatever arms and cavalry you can muster that you may strike terror in the enemies of Allah (non-Muslims), and others besides them not known to you. Whatever you spend in Allah's Cause will be repaid in full, and no wrong will be done to you."

Qur'an 8:7: "Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: 'Wipe the infidels (non-Muslims) out to the last.'"

Qur'an 4:101: "The unbelievers (non-Muslims) are your inveterate foe."

Qur'an 9.29: "Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection."

Qur'an 9.30: "And the Jews say: Uzair (Ezra) is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"

Had enough? Of course you have. And so have I, and so has any sane man. But do you think adducing this evidence from the Qur'an might convince, or at least give pause, to the steve-gilchrists of this world? Don't be silly. What's the Qur'an to him? It's only words, and possibly words taken out of context, and besides, he knows plenty of Muslims who haven't tried to strike his head off - so there. Answer that one, Mr. Smarty.

And when Tarek Fatah talks about the Saudis sending those tens of thousands of Qur'ans to Toronoto (and presumably millions more around the world), and he claims that those "Wahhabi" Qurans gave inserted into them, as glosses on the Arabic terms in the Qur'an, words or phrases -- e.g., "Christians and Jews" -- where, Tarek Fatah insists, those words give a false interpretation -- they do not -- how can Steve Gilchrist (or even Michael Coren unless he is thoroughly prepared on such matters), see right through Tarek Fatah's claims and rebut them on the spot?

Oh, I know it's hard to believe. You look at that good burgher and solid Steve Gilchrist, and you think, I don't believe he really didn't read and study the contents of the Qur'an. I don't believe he didn't find out about the Sunnah, that is, the Hadith, and the different collections of Hadith, varying in significance, and the rank, according to putative authenticity, to which each Hadith is assigned. And I don't believe he didn't read the Sira, doesn't know that Muhammad was the Perfect Man, has never heard of the Banu Qurayza, and the Khaybar Oasis, and Asma bint Marwan, and Abu Afak. Surely he must know all of those things. And surely he has looked into some of the great Western scholars of Islam. Which ones do you think he found most impressive? Was it Joseph Schacht? C. Snouck Hurgronje? Henri Lammens? Samuel Zwemer? St. Clair Tisdall? Georges Vajda? Arthur Jeffrey, for so many years the editor of "The Moslem World"? Who was it? Oh, you're not serious. You don't think he would consider Karen Armstrong or the venal John Esposito to be "scholars of Islam," do you? Oh, I see. Sorry. I shouldn't have asked.

But he's heard of Ayaan Hirsi Ali, hasn't he? Didn't he read Infidel? And before taking Tarek Fatah's side about that awful Wafa Sultan, he did read with care, didn't he, her book A God Who Hates? No? He didn't feel he had to, because Tarek Fatah, his friend, told him it was malicious filth? Was that the end of the matter? Oh dear. What about Magdi Allam? Has he ever seen Magdi Allam speak? You can catch him on the Italian television, the RAI, and I know the RAI reaches Canada.

In the full light of the television cameras and of history, Steve Gilchrist, politician (of the center-right, so I gather from a quick googling, but these labels mean so very little, far less than do levels of intelligence) and businessman, has himself declaring that nowhere in the Qur'an does it call for the killing of non-Muslims. He doesn't even bother to discuss the significance of the Sunnah as preserved in the written records of the Hadith and Sira. But let's just stick to the Qur'an. Has Steve Gilchrist never seen the "Jihad verses" in the Qur'an? Has he never heard, for example, of the Calcutta Qu'ran Petition, which helpfully lists many dozens of those verses? Does he not understand that Islam is based on the opposition of Muslim to Non-Muslm, that the faith itself was created out of bits and pieces of pre-Islamic pagan Arab lore, along with major figures (Jesus, Moses, Noah, and many others) and stories appropriated, in vastly distorted forms, from both Judaism and Christianity? Does he not know that Islam, the faith, the ideology of Islam, has no place for what we would call "tolerance" but reduces all others, at best - that is, if they are People of the Book, Ahl Al-Kitab - to the permanent status of dhimmi, that is, to a state of humiliation, degradation, and physical insecurity, for what security there is depends on the scrupulous observance by the non-Muslims of every onerous requirement imposed on all of them? And in times when scapegoats are needed, it was easy, in the past, to take even one dhimmi's failure to meet his obligations as the occasion for attacking a larger group, or even the whole community, of dhimmis.

Islam is based on a clear division of all of humanity into two parts: Believers and Unbelievers, Muslims and Infidels. Between the two there is not to be any equality, nor any kind of ultimate synthesis, or reconciliation. There is to be only a state of permanent warfare (though not always of open war). It is the duty of Muslims to engage in the "struggle" or Jihad, to push ever back the frontiers of Dar al-Islam at the expense of Dar al-Harb, that is, the House or Domain of War, where Infidels still dominate. Muslims must engage in Jihad that will force the removal of all obstacles to the spread, and then the dominance, of Islam, all over the world.

When Steve Gilchrist asserted that nowhere in the Qur'an is there any call to kill non-Muslims, what should Tarek Fatah have done, if he were an honest man and not an apologist pretending to be an honest man? He was sitting right at the same table in the same television studio. His silence would of course be taken by others to mean that what Steve Gilchrist said was accurate. For surely, naïve viewers would have thought, had it been inaccurate, the truth-telling moderate who bravely takes on other Muslims would have said something, would have corrected any misapprehension.

But Tarek Fatah was silent.

Here is what Tarek Fatah might have said:

"Well, Steve, I'm afraid you've got it wrong. I'm afraid that in the Qur'an, and in many Hadith deemed by most authoritative muhaddithin to be the most authentic Muhammad's own behavior, his words and his acts, show that the message -- Kill the Unbelievers - certainly is there, explicitly in some places, and in many other places, it is the implicit message. And that, Steve, is exactly the kind of thing we have to know about, if we are to have any hope of convincing Muslims to re-interpret the Qur'an, to see it as a historical document, to put it back into history, and thus to truly "contextualize" what Muhammad said and did, as part of early seventh-century Arabia, as reflecting the mores and attitudes of that time, but not as if Muhammad himself were divine - Muslims like to mock Christians for believing in the divinity of Christ - and to convince themselves that to treat Muhammad as the Perfect Man, al-insan al-kamil, is to endow him with a quasi-divinity that comes perilously close to shirk, that is, polytheism. We must, Steve, if we are to save Islam, change its teachings, re-configure its meanings. I know this, I admit this, and that is what I am trying, nel mio piccolo, in my own little way, to do."

But this is not what Tarek Fatah, the Brave Truth-Teller, did. Not a word. He remained completely silent. I put it to him right here: do you, Tarek Fatah, agree with Steve Gilchrist that nowhere in the Qur'an does it call for the killing of Unbelievers?

Please note that just as Steve Gilchrist makes his remark about there being nowhere in the Qur'an a call to kill Unbelievers, Tarek Fatah remains silent and then, does something even worse. Before there is time for Michael Coren to come in and ask again, point-blank, about Steve Gilchrist's amazing assertion, before, that is, Michael Coren can turn to Tarek Fatah and say (as he, Michael Coren, should have said, and as I allow myself to believe he would have said), "Well, Tarek, is that true? Is it true, as Steve has just told us, that nowhere in the Qur'an is there a call to kill the Unbelievers?," Tarek Fatah, quick to sense dangers of this sort, immediately switches the discussion away from this, and starts talking about something else.

For Tarek Fatah is hoping that no one will stop things, that no one in the audience will really be paying attention, that no one will question or, still worse, ask Tarek Fatah, on camera, if Gilchrist's assertion was right. He, Tarek Fatah, smiling plausible rumpled suited-and-betied Tarek Fatah, who knows his Canadian audiences so well, wants to avoid being put on the spot. He can say nothing, and thereby leave the impression that Gilchrist spoke correctly, that nowhere in the Qur'an does it say to kill Unbelievers, but he has to be careful about receiving a direct question about this and then answering untruthfully.

You see, he's beginning to find out what others like him are beginning to find out. While there is a certain irreducible minimum of fools who are not about to start finding out what the texts say, what the tenets are, there are many in Canada, as in the United States, and in Western Europe, who have begun to realize that they cannot rely on the press, radio, and television, nor on their mostly-disastrous political class, and will have to find out by studying themselves. And they are doing so, and they reply on the Internet to the nonsense and lies that many have put up with till now. But no longer. They understand what is at stake.

And Tarek Fatah is beginning to get wind of this. He got wind of it when one of his softest targets, a Toronto synagogue audience, did not boo or shout down Wafa Sultan, but listened not only respectfully to her, and seemed to take in what she was saying, seemed to find it convincing. Oh, dear, thinks Tarek Fatah. What if not only Wafa Sultan, but a dozen others - Nonie Darwish, Ibn Warraq, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Ali Sina - were to find ways of getting to those whom he has had largely to himself? What if members of such congregations, what if those watching the Michael Coren show, began to find out more? Why, in Great Britain, you have Ian McEwan and Martin Amis saying things about Islam that he, Tarek Fatah, would never have expected. In France, the little game of Tariq Ramadan has been seen through, and he has prudently moved his operation elsewhere, and is hoping to bring it to the United States. When even members of a synagogue - heretofore one of the places that Tarek Fatah could always count on for a warm and unquestioning reception - now appear willing to listen respectfully, and to show evident appreciation for, Wafa Sultan, well then, Tarek Fatah must now be careful.

And now it's back to Steve Gilchrist. He has taken care, in his blunt way, of the false and ridiculous idea that somewhere in the Qur'an there is a call to kill Infidels. It just isn't there, says Steve. That's it. Let's not here any more of this nonsense, shall we?

But Steve Gilchrist knows that even though the Qur'an doesn't say anything about killing Infidels, and even though Steve Gilchrist doesn't know - so it doesn't bother him - that the Hadith and Sira exist, and perhaps he should look into them, too, with the same attentive vigilance with which he apparently studied the Qur'an, there is something not quite right, something disturbing, about the behavior and attitudes of some Muslims. So if it isn't in the Qur'an, and the Sunnah for Steve Gilchrist doesn't exist, what could it be? You may be puzzled, you may not know the answer.

But Steve Gilchrist does, and he's not going to be afraid to state it, state it no matter what the consequences, no matter what anyone thinks. And what is that explanation, what is that answer, what is the "root cause" of all this terrorism and all this other bad stuff? Oh, he knows people aren't going to be happy with his answer, he knows it is daring of him to say it, but in the interests of the truth he, Steve Gilchrist, has just got to say it.

But first - start at around 4.40, in Part II, he goes through a little of the preliminary Tu-Quoque that non-Muslims like to perform, not against Muslims, but in defense of Islam. So Steve Gilchrist mentions David Koresh, and the Branch Davidians, and says that no Christians would regard them as Christians, which means, of course, that no Muslims would regard the "extremists" who call themselves Muslims as real Muslims. That's right: in just the same way.

And who, after all, are these so-called Muslims whom no real Muslim would ever call a Muslim, just as no real Christian would ever call the Branch Davidians real Christians? Well, it may be bold, it may be daring, but it's got to be done, it's got to be said, and honest Steve Gilchrist, forthright Steve Gilchrist, is just the man to say to, to go where no man has gone before.

Listen carefully. Here is what Steve Gilchrist knows: It's Wahabism. That's right, the whole problem in Islam comes from this crazy sect, a sect so strange and so marginal that it can only be compared to David Koresh's several-hundred-strong Branch Davidians, wiped out in Waco.

Look at 4.49, and listen to Steve Gilchrist replying to a point about Muslim behavior, Muslim attacks on non-Muslims, raised by Michael Coren:

"You're absolutely right. And on that score I don't think you and I would disagree...We have failed to recognize the real problem. We don't have the courage to come right out and say the Wahhabi sect should be banned. There is nothing good has come out of the billions of dollars that have flowed out of Saudi Arabia to foment [at least, unlike Joan Crockatt, Steve Gilchrist can pronounce the word "foment" correctly] unrest within the mosques themselves."

And at 5:15:

"If I was a Muslim I would be extremely concerned that imams are not standing up and reading from the Qur'an where it says that you should NOT kill non-believers. It does not say in the Quran that you should go out and kill non-Muslims."

And there's more:

"We haven't had the courage to say the Wahhabis don't represent all Muslims. ..We just don't have the guts to say that at its very core that is a terrorist...."

So Steve Gilchrist presents as his own brave uninhibited take on the matter, the fact that the "Wahabis" are behind all the problems. He is apparently unaware that this blaming-the-Wahabis business has been a staple, a cliche, the most obvious cop-out (I never thought I'd use that word, but now I am, for the first time in my life) practiced by those seeking to divert attention from Islam itself, along with such other diversionary tactics as seeking "the root causes" in poverty and unemployment among Muslims, or in the "confrontation with modernity" (modernity being another way of describing the world of non-Muslims), or in "the resentment of American foreign policy" - try explaining that to Hindus in Pakistan or Buddhists in Thailand, or Christians in Nigeria or the Sudan, as the reason for Muslim murders). And so he presents this cliché of thought as a brand-new notion, and how brave of him to bring it forth.

Coren, however, isn't buying. The "Wahabis" as responsible for all of Muslim terrorism and Muslim unpleasantness? Surely that doesn't explain the behavior of the Shi'a, the Shi'a now running the Islamic Republic of Iran? The Shi'a in Hezbollah? Not to mention all of the other, non-Wahabi Sunni Muslims who are just as unpleasant, just as dangerously anti-Infidel, as any Wahabi?

Oh,don't bother me with that, Steve Gilchrist says. Look, I told you what the problem is, and that's it. Listen, he says, they have, all of them, all those non-Wahabis, all those Shi'a who are the mortal enemies of the Wahabis, been "corrupted" by Wahabism. Apparently Steve Gilchrist has never seen the Saudi clerics denouncing the Shi'a as the "worst kind of Infidels," apparently he is unfamiliar with the anti-Shi'a rants of Al-Zarqawi and Al Qaeda in Iraq. "Yes sir, they've all been corrupted."

And that's all you need to know. And don't bother finding out that the Wahabis persecute the Shi'a whenever they can - do so, in fact, in the Eastern Province of Saudi Arabia, where the Shi'a of Saudi Arabia are mostly gathered, and where they lead most unhappy and uneasy lives under Wahabi rule.

It's time to close.

But before we do, why don't we all, one more time, watch, from beginning to end, those two tapes of the Michael Coren Show, starring Michael Coren, with his guests Tarek Fatah, and Joan Crockatt, and Steve Gilchrist. Please don't fail to notice a high point of the whole farce, and that is how Steve Gilchrist, at the end of Part 2, picks up the "Tamil Tigers" who had been mentioned with such confused certainty by Joan Crockatt in Part 1, and uses them to make a point: "just as the Tamil Tigers don't define all of the Sri Lankans," so the "extremist" Muslims shouldn't be allowed to define all Muslims. If Joan Crockatt can confuse Tamil Tigers with Sikhs, well then, Steve Gilchrist, possibly out of a sense of gallantry, wishes to rescue her from unfair obloquy by sharing her confusion, and he not only sees her, but raises her, in the idiocy stakes, by appearing to think that all Sri Lankans are Tamils, but that only some of those Tamils are Tamil Tigers, "just as only some of the world's Muslims are Wahabis." He apparently does not know that the Tamil Tigers -- the Hindu Tamils on Sri Lanka being linked to the Tamils in southern India - were waging war on other non-Tamil Sri Lankans, and mainly, against the Buddhist Sinhalese. I'm not sure that Steve Gilchrist understands that, and I know that Joan Crockatt doesn't understand it. In fact, I suspect that if we were to give them both a test of their knowledge of men and events over the past half-century or century - ask them, say, to tell us about Biafra, or about Hassan al-Banna and the Muslim Brotherhood and whether it is correct to describe Hassan al-Banna as "anti-colonialist" (as admiring stories about his grandson Tariq Ramadan often say) or if another word might be more accurate, they would fail abysmally. But this is the problem, isn't it? So many such people are on the air, being asked and, still worse, giving their opinions.

Now that you've seen, several times over, these tapes, don't you agree that Tarek Fatah is quite different, in what he is willing to say about Islam, than Wafa Sultan, or Magdi Allam, or Ibn Warraq, or Ayaan Hirsi Ali? And how much deception, or self-deception, must we tolerate from those who call themselves and who think of themselves as "moderate Muslims" who are bravely criticizing Islam when in fact, they are protecting Islam and trying to deflect criticism onto other targets, such as the factitious "Arab Islam" that Tarek Fatah invokes? Fatah is a kind of Anwar Sheikh manqué. Anwar Sheikh was an apostate from Pakistan who lived in England. His major theme is highlit in the title of one of his books, Islam: The Arab National Religion. Tarek Fatah cannot stand Arabs, cannot stand the "Arab" element in Islam, and he allows himself to believe that, if only those nice Pakistanis and Bangladeshis, just like himself, could take a stand against the "Arab" element, then Islam would be fine, and the trouble between Islam and, not the West but All The Rest, would disappear. He can't bring himself to do what Anwar Sheikh did. He can't bring himself to march out the door and never look back. He can't leave Islam.

But as more and more non-Muslims in the West, those intelligent and aware enough to recognize the need to inform themselves about Islam, and do so, the harder it will become for the tarek-fatahs of this world to continue their activities with the same impunity.

Tarek Fatah is not prompted by the same sinister motives as, for example, the colubrine Tariq Ramadan so clearly possesses. He is embarrassed by what he knows of Islamic doctrine, but he's made the decision not to give up on Islam but instead to misstate, to omit, to mis-quote, to deliberately misunderstand, and to refrain from correcting non-Muslims in their own miscomprehensions of Islam. He's not, however, an innocent. He knows better. We see this in the way in which he calumniates Wafa Sultan. We see it in his preposterous missing-the-point insistence that Aisha is at least fourteen and perhaps as old as nineteen or twenty-one. We see it in his never correcting the egregious errors of Steve Gilchrist, especially when Gilchrist claims that nowhere in the Qur'an does it call for the killing of Infidels. His truly hysterical reaction to Wafa Sultan is prompted, I think, by his realization that she is not alone, that there are others who, as ex-Muslims, are determined to tell the truth. And if they can do so, if they can get an audience especially perhaps in synagogues that have provided such a good living to Tarek Fatah, they will be able to open many eyes among those Fatah himself has confused. For so many have been eager to have him come and relieve everyone of their palpable anxiety about Islam, and Tarek Fatah is just the man to do it, even if his means are deplorable and his effect dangerously lulling.

Just as before there was Wafa Sultan there were Anwar Sheikh, and Ibn Warraq, and Ali Sina, and at the same time as Wafa Sultan there have been Magdi Allam and Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Nonie Darwish, now still younger dissenters and truth-tellers have appeared, such as the remarkable son of a Hamas leader, Mus'ab Hassan Yousuf. He can be seen and heard here.

In all of these people one detects a note that Tarek Fatah overlooks, or does not sense: a note of sad empathy with those simple people who have their natural humanity extinguished by Islam, their minds permanently damaged by enslavement to Islam, by their lives as "slaves of Allah," and the discouragement of their faculty of free and skeptical inquiry. It is not Tarek Fatah who cares about these people, but Wafa Sultan, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Magdi Allam, Mus'ab Hassan Yousuf, and the other apostates. Tarek Fatah is making his own career, and his career is that of a professional well-paid speaker - a variant of the motivational speaker, because in the end he's got a message of hope, a message of interfaith understanding, a message of false comfort disguised as truth-telling.

In his unwillingness to speak truthfully about little Aisha, at the beginning of this program, and in his quickly starting to talk about something else just as soon as Steve Gilchrist make his statement of what the Qur'an does not say about Infidels, he invites legitimate suspicion. If he is willing to continue to misinform Infidels, no matter how, in the end, that causes them further anguish and endangers their societies, their laws, their customs, their social arrangements, their physical security, he should expect no immunity from severe criticism. Tarek Fatah should assume that just as with this little tape, other tapes will be made of his appearances, and what he says looked at, and held up for public inspection, analysis, criticism.

Hard to know how long he can continue the farce. For he can't, he just can't, jettison Islam, and therefore he has got to misrepresent it. For if he were to speak truthfully, his audiences of Infidels (Muslims pay him no attention) would ask: how is it that you, Tarek Fatah, can continue to call yourself a Muslim? Why are you still a Muslim? Living in Canada, enjoying the mental freedom of Canada, what keeps you still in thrall to this ideology? Fear? Filial piety? Fond memories of pious grandparents, or of Iftar dinners past? That "human warmth" that you find lacking in the West but that you recall feeling in the bosom of your family back in Pakistan? Is that it?

Muhammad, the Perfect Man, had sexual intercourse with a nine-year-old girl, or at least, that is what Muslims believe he did. And they do not fault him. Are we not then entitled to pass judgment on those who believe this or who, like the Ayatollah Khomeini, also think that it is right for Muslims today to marry nine-year-old girls? Are we not allowed to take into consideration all of this, and to form a judgment of Muslims and of Islam on this basis? Are we not to investigate the words and deeds of the person whom Muslims consider to be the Perfect Man? Why are we not allowed to do so? Why is this, or that, off limits to our critical scrutiny?

No, Tarek Fatah can't allow any such questions to be put to him, and can't allow himself to provide the most inadequate and misleading answers he is likely to provide. He exists, one supposes, in a state of mental tension because he has decided to remain a Muslim, and so he has condemned himself to a lifetime of apologetics that, little by little, will be taken apart, and his mental enslavement come better to be understood. Even in the freedom of Canada, he can't unlock those mind-forged manacles, and he will continue to earn his sad keep, and keep his sad fame, as a "brave Muslim moderate" who, in truth, remains a guide to nothing and nowhere.

He can't do any other. He can't. He just can't.

And as long as there are non-Muslims who possess the same grasp of Islam and of current history as displayed by Steve Gilchrist and Joan Crockatt - and there are so many of them - he doesn't have to. And he needn't worry.

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Please tell me which are the forbiddem months this year. Seems a good time to attack - apart from the 5 times a day daily prayers
To paraphrase Do unto others what they would do unto you

Not sure which are the forbidden months. I do know that you should eat oysters only during months that have "r's" in them.

9 yr old Islamic woman.

An odd definition of maturity, that.

*** 33:51 ***

That was a brilliant display of Islamic arithmetic, though. In a few quick seconds we moved from 9 yrs old to 19 to 21 yrs old, or maybe 14 yrs old. Something.

Who's the dumb bimbo? Ain't had the pleasure of her stupid insights before.

*** 8:7 ***

From Unicorns to Sikh terrorists, or maybe the one was seen riding the other.

Wow. I mean, WOW. That lady was either convinced she was right in linking the Tamils Tigers to the Sikh community or she knew she was talking uot of her posterior! Yet she did not react in ANY way at being told she had just spoken nonsense and simply reiterated the POINT of her fallacious fantasy.
Are you sure she is not an elected official?

How many Tarek Fatahs must we discover, after the fact, to have been either insane or lying (for there is no third explanatory alternative) about their alleged, and esteemeed, moderation before we adopt the saner, more reasonable approach of simply considering them guilty until proven innocent rather than the other way around? How many of us will continue to be mass-murdered by Muslims before we move to that saner, more reasonable approach?

And once we graduate to that saner, more reasonable approach, of course, the proof involved by which any given Muslim would be vetted must be, as the saying goes, "like a camel passing through the eye of a needle."

Or, we can continue putting the safety of our societies below other concerns, in the interest of indulging that preposterous fantasy that serves to assuage our own Western ethical anxiety that otherwise we might "become like them".

Shirk or polytheism, surely?

That lady was either convinced she was right in linking the Tamils Tigers to the Sikh community or she knew she was talking uot of her posterior.

But the key is she sounded sure of herself.

*** Bukhari Vol 6 Bk 60 Nbr 662 ***

Like the way Prez Obama looks and sounds so dsrned confident when spouting some of his nonsense or patent falsehoods.

What prompted Coren to invite Joan Crockatt to the show? What are her qualifications to speak on Islam or the Tamil Tigers, both things that she obviously knows nothing about?

Gilchrist, who makes a complete fool of himself, is insufferable. But he displays the standard rejection of reality symptoms that we see everywhere in the West today.

For many like us, who educated themselves about Islamic doctrine, this is inexcusable ignorance.

But aren't American politicians even worse?

The entire Western world is full of such people. And they make pronouncements not only on Islam, but on all kinds of things. Perhaps democracy, in the classic sense, can only work if we do not allow it to metastasize into mass democracy, and at the same time pull the plug on education, or at least on education in history (providing the ballast of fact, and material from which to begin to grasp the nature of men and events by studying those in the past) and in literature, which strengthens the muscles of the imagination, imagination in the largest sense, allowing us to imagine, for example, that not everyone lives by our rules, thinks as we do, has the same goals or desires as we, and so on.

Well, we're stuck with what we have, mass democracy, and plenty of people who know nothing, but naively sure of themselves and most happy to give us all their opinion. On anything. On everything.

Perhaps democracy, in the classic sense, can only work if we do not allow it to metastasize into mass democracy...

This jogs an interesting asymmetry:

Increased 'democracy' (in the brute sense of the will of the people given sway) among Muslims tends to lead (since the demos of the Umma is diseased) to more Islam, with all its attendant dangers for the world.

Meanwhile, increased mass democracy in the Hughian sense in the West only tends to strengthen the blindness that cannot see the dangers of Islam.

And these blind ones leading the blind continue to promote their project of 'democratizing' Muslims, not realizing the worldwide brushfires of 'extremist' Islamic revival their efforts are helping to kindle.

I followed Hugh's link to a video of "the remarkable son of a Hamas leader, Mus'ab Hassan Yousuf." Wow. What an interview. Yousuf goes into a kind of high strung fury at Islam and at his interviewer. His fury reminds me a bit of Wafa Sultan's in the video that made her famous. And he takes an interesting approach. It has a bit of the concreteness or drama of the Nietzschean approach to God. Nietzsche doesn't say in some merely philosophical way that God doesn't exist. He creates a madman-prophet who presents a powerful vision of the death of God and of the horror of it. And Yousuf doesn't say in a merely theoretical way that the Islamic God is unreal. Yousuf says, in what sounds a bit like fighting words, that he, Yousuf, has a problem with the God of Islam. Yousuf has a little the attitude of Marlon Brando in On the Waterfront, near the end of the film where Brando's character goes down to the docks and starts yelling for the evil waterfront boss (of whom everyone else is terrified) to come out and face him. Yousuf is calling Allah out for a showdown. As with Wafa Sultan, one can feel that Yousuf's volcanic eruption of truth has something unstoppable about it, like a force that has been suppressed too long and that refuses to be denied any longer, no matter what.

Wow. I mean, WOW. That lady was either convinced she was right in linking the Tamils Tigers to the Sikh community or she knew she was talking uot of her posterior!
I'm convinced!!! I do promise not to look @ Tamil Tigers, or Maoists, negatively just b'cos Muslims love committing acts of terror and can't indefinitely co-exist w/ others!

Hugh,

Thanks for these timely and excellent rebuttals of Tarek Fatah, Gilchrist, et al.

Steve Gilchrist can be regarded as having lied to the viewing audience. To say that the Quran does not tell Muslims to kill unbelievers might seem to be either an error or deception. Let's suppose it is an error. Can this still be deception if he is in error?

Let's suppose he really doesn't know what the Quran says. I would like to suggest that an error of this sort, on Steve Gilchrist's part, in the context of this particular televised discussion, is a kind of a lie, is a kind of intentional deception. It is intentional deception in the sense that he is presenting this as true and as knowledge that he possesses, even though (in reality) he doesn't know it is true. He doesn't even say "I think that" or "I believe that" or "according to some interpretation"; he presents this as a statement of fact. Legally, this is perjury, just as it would be perjury for someone to swear in an affidavit that they know X to be the case, when in fact they do not know X to be the case. Surely making a statement in a televised context of this sort, where some speakers are being brought together with the intention of getting to the truth, must be regarded as intentional deception of the sort I described. Additional concerns would be raised if Gilchrist, subsequently, did not issue a retraction and public correction.

To some extent, Michael Coren is also complicit in this, though obviously he can't be held responsible for every wild statement from his guests. He can be held responsible, however, for having on three Islam apologists and not one critic, not even one neutral party, not even one party knowledgeable about the texts and practices pertaining to Aisha's age. What Coren can do, though, is invite on his show Islam critics, or someone, to set the record straight on this point about what the Quran states, as well as the addressing the claims about Aisha's age.

Regarding killing unbelievers (adding to Hugh's litany above):

Quran, 9:123. "O ye who believe! Fight* those of the disbelievers** who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)."

*qatiloo = kill
**alkuffari = the disbelievers

Ibn Kathir's tafsir (freely available on the internet, only takes a few minutes of Steve Gilchrist's and Michael Coren's or anyone else's time to find it)

9:123
"The Order for Jihad against the Disbelievers, the Closest, then the Farthest Areas
Allah commands the believers to fight the disbelievers, the closest in area to the Islamic state, then the farthest. This is why the Messenger of Allah started fighting the idolators in the Arabian Peninsula. When he finished with them and Allah gave him control over Makkah, Al-Madinah, At-Ta'if, Yemen, Yamamah, Hajr, Khaybar, Hadramawt and other Arab provinces, and the various Arab tribes entered Islam in large crowds, he then started fighting the People of the Scriptures. He began preparations to fight the Romans who were the closest in area to the Arabian Peninsula, and as such, had the most right to be called to Islam, especially since they were from the People of the Scriptures [...]"

And why would Gilchrist say that there is no such verse in the Quran telling Muslims to kill unbelievers? What would he have to gain by saying this, and what would he have to lose by saying otherwise, in that televised venue?

Hugh, did you get round to clarifying BY's position on Islamism? The trail on the other thread went cold ... please see my response to you there.

Perhaps democracy, in the classic sense, can only work if we do not allow it to metastasize into mass democracy, and at the same time pull the plug on education ..........


If I may take the liberty to respond - the problem is perhaps not with mass democracy or with people like the pretenders in the programme. The problem is that the right thinking people don't act enough. Free societies work only if there is entrepreneurial drive in right thinking people and that the "truth will prevail" dictum is not taken for granted. Truth, of course, prevails but not without effort from those who believe in it.

We see it in India all the time. There are enough right thinking, unfoolable (love this word, probably invented by you !) Hindus. But when it comes to action, most dont even start. Many would but don't know where to start. I believe that freedom works, whether in the field of economy / markets or in the field of politics, only when there is enough entrepreneurship and field is not left for wrong thinking people.

Sanjay

"Hugh, did you get round to clarifying BY's position on Islamism? The trail on the other thread went cold ... please see my response to you there."--from a posting above

No, I haven't gotten around to reading through every use of "Islamism" in "Eurabia" and I will, and since that thread has apparently been closed, I will put somewhere -- perhaps in an article -- further observations on this "Islam" and "Islamism" business, though having read through the entire discussion, I think the main point will not change.

And that point is this:

The term "Islamism" is now used -- and how a word is used is what counts -- by those who want to offer a vision of Islam that claims, or pretends, that Islam itself is inoffensive, but there is a version of it, a mutation of it, without foundation, that has taken root as "a response to modernity" or some such, and that it is this that we call "Islamism" and that "Islamism" is the only thing we need be alarmed about. Now if the world were full of non-Muslims who understood the truth, and yet wanted at this point to offer a rhetorical way out for some "moderate Muslims" who could not be expected to intellectually or emotionally bear criticism of Islam itself, then just perhaps an argument could be made for this construct.

But do we live in such a world, where everyone is familiar with the texts of Islam, and the history of Islamic conquest, over the past 1350 years, from Spain to the East Indies? Do we? Are Steve Gilchrist and Joan Crockatt aberrations, or are they par for the course? Is Tarek Fatah a truth-teller, akin to Wafa Sultan or Mus'ab Hassan Yousuf, or is he something else, someone who misstates what is in the Qur'an and Hadith, and who allows others (e.g., Gilchrist) to say things that are wildly untrue ("Nowhere in the Qur'an does it say to kill Unbelievers")?

I know that Bat Ye'or would never approve of this kind of thing, and I also know that she wrote "Eurabia" directly in English, and that her two languages (i.e., native to her) are French and Italian -- see the first line of her "Acknowledgements" -- and that "Islamism" in her usage has nothing to do with the word as employed by Pipes or other who are attempting to construct an alternative reality that I do not think is helpful, that does not win over Muslims, and that is actually dangerous in that it confuses such people as Krauthammer who have not studied enough or thought enought enough about Islam, and about the way of the world, but think that if "Islamism" a word and a concept that Pipes promotes, then it must be okay, and they leave it at that.

As you can see, I disagree.

"The Jews, the Jews" he shouted, the "secular Muslim" Tarek Fatah", who knew so very well about the embarrassing Muhammad-Aisha child molestation that just can't be true, although it is, but if we calculate it backwards and upwards and down and then sideways there is "evidence" that Aisha was older, really...

The other day I had a Muslim on my blog telling me that it was all the fault of the Jews that Muhammad had to kill them, the Banu Qurayza brought it not only onto themselves, but they also chose to be killed according to the Torah. Some weird construct, that one.

http://sheikyermami.com/2009/06/03/the-banu-qurayza-massacre/

Quite bizarre.

But today we also have Tayyib Erdogan not only deny the Armenian genocide, he actually accuses the Armenians of ‘Exterminating’ Turks

http://www.asbarez.com/78534/erdogan-accuses-armenians-of-‘exterminating’-turks/

M. Coren is really chickening out here. He probably knows the highly respected sources of Aisha's 9 yr old rape are Tabari & Bukhari and doesn't ask for Fatah's sources for his counter claim - or point out the obvious: if it didn't happen then why is it permitted in Islamic law to marry a nine year old girl?

I think T Fatah is a deliberate Islamic disinformationists easily exposed by anyone like Mr. Spencer but Coren didn't have the courage to have someone really knowledgeable to counter him on his show. Coren does some good (see the Ezra Levant interviews) but he'll only go so far. In dark age Canada, with its 14 "Human Rights" commissions, intellectual courage will always be offensive to someone and the courageous will be persecuted.

At the very least, it is going to be harder for Tarek Fatah, knowing that his tapes will be available and can be held up for critical inspection, to contine to deliberately misconstrue or even ignore what is in the Qur'an and Hadith. I do expect him to continue to be an Anwar Shaikh manque, that is someone who is deeply offended by the "Arab" nature of Islam, but while Anwar Shaikh bravely left Islam, Tarak Fatah, for various emotional reasons, and possibly a kind of intellectual confusion that he refuses to clear up for himself, cannot do so. He recognizes that Islam is and has been a vehicle for Arab supremacism. What he refuses to recognize are the conditions which his Hindu ancestors had to endure, and what caused them to convert to Islam. I don't think Tarek Fatah has imaginatively entered into the world of Muslim-conquered and Muslim-ruled India, and by that I don't mean the barbara-cartlandesque stuff put out by William "Okkidental" Dalrymple (who is now busy trying to change his spots, what with Ayaan Hirsi Ali appearing at the literary festival Dalrymple was involved with and horrified to see her appear -- Dalrymple is becoming less of a "romance in a Mughal court" boy and more a "celebrating India's richness" boy, but he doesn't fool Ibn Warraq, and he doesn't fool anyone who has followed his dismal career).

I'm sure those appareances as a "moderate Muslim" won't dry up. Irshad Manji The Flamboyant is still doing well in the same line. But here's the problem for such people: non-Muslims are not standing still, but educating themselves about Islam. It's not, after all, elementary particle physics. And as they do so, and as they look around the world and see what Muslims are doing (why, google "Chittagong Hills" for the latest atrocities), they will take a dimmer and dimmer view of those whom, in aless-informed period of their existence, they might once have been impressed with. But no longer.

A very strong article, Mr Fitzgerald. Thank you.

There was one thing Tarek Fatah said, which I was hoping you would address and debunk. He claimed that the koran does not calumniate the Jews nor does it call for violence upon them, claiming that in many places the Koran, in arabic, merely speaks of "people of bad character" and he claims that the naughty Saudis have chosen to translate this as Jews and Christians. Obviously he is trying to let the koran off the hook and keep it above criticism.

To my understanding he is lying through his teeth. I understand that the Saudis have sometimes taken liberties in translating certain passages, but with a totally different goal in mine; they try to soften certain passages for the sake of rendering these passages less revolting to western eyes. For instance, in the verse that says, "If your wife is disobedient . . . you must beat her," apparently some Saudi-funded translations insert the word "lightly." Beat her lightly. But to my knowledge the koran and the hadiths are replete with calumnies and damnations of the Jews and Christians.

I was surprised that you didn't jump on this, or is there some truth to his statement?

No -- I made a number of mistakes in the piece because I, in a draft, got confused about which statements were made in which part of which tape. I found that I had left out a lot about Aisha after Part I was posted, and by that time posters had filled in what I no longer needed to, and I did the same thing with the "you shall not take Christians and Jews as friends" and the "Saudi" version of the Qur'an. I may insert it into the original,

Gilchrist said that nowhere in the Qur'an is anyone told to kill Unbelievers, Infidels.

Something no one has picked up on yet: One tactic used by Muslim apologists to try to deflect criticism of the verses Hugh listed is to argue that the QTL root words (e.g., qatiloo of 9:29; aqtuloona of 9:111) in Arabic which figure in most or all of those verses should be translated as "fight" and not "kill" -- with "fight" being then either interpreted to mean justified defensive battles against hostiles (in which case the discussion shifts to the new ground of the quicksand of each side disputing whether any given battle of the "context" of those verses was defensive or offensive), or with "fight" sometimes stretched disingenuously further to refer to figurative senses of opposition to opponents (much as "jihad" is insisted upon to only mean an internal struggle).

Thus Gilchrist probably has, in his obtuseness, probably become convinced by the one, two or three "learned Muslims" he knows who have assured him that this is how to interpret those verses -- i.e., in terms of a sophistry he has swallowed uncritically in his multiculturalist respect for Muslims. Fatah likely did not know this was the basis for Gilchrist's bald assertion, and intervened to deflect the conversation at that juncture, as Hugh speculates. (Even if Fatah had known of Gilchrist's basis, it is always best to be on the safe side.) At any rate, Gilchrist was saved from having to get into that explanation, though he would have likely explained it with as much obtuse certitude as he had promulgated the initial claim.

Steve Gilchrist didn't claim the killing, or fighting involving killing, of disbelievers was just or defensive. We don't know the bases for his statement. The point here is that he made a sweeping and objectively false statement about the Quran.

Steve Gilchrist made his statement to a mainstream television audience. It is reasonable then to assume that he wants them to believe that he has first-hand knowledge of the matter, that he has read through the Quran from cover to cover, or at has least searched it exhaustively electronically, and has verified as an empirical fact that the Quran does not ever say kill (or slay, put to death, slaughter, kill in fighting or battle of any kind) the disbelievers. When someone says, sweepingly, confidently, absolutely, categorically, seriously, and without any qualification, that a book does not say X, we in fact expect to find that the book does not say X. At least, that's what's reasonably expected of an honest speaker; no one is denying that people can say all kinds of reckless and false things. But one way or another, whatever has caused Gilchrist to say this in front of a television audience, he is responsible for the statement. If he was relying on secondary sources, and not the first-hand experience implied by his statement (where he is effectively quoting himself as an authority), then he needs to come clean on that point and apologize for misleading the public.

He needs to be held accountable for that statement by persistent questioners, until something in him gives. If he tries to use subsequent apologetic lines, he should still be questioned as to why he never clarified his statement in the first place. Indeed, he should be asked why he said what he said, so confidently, sweepingly, and conclusively, in the first place. The questioner should not let up on this point, and should not entertain any subsequent apologetics, until explains why he told an audience of tens of thousands, perhaps as many as 250000, of unsuspecting non-Muslims, a patently false statement about the Quran.

Most responsible media organizations and persons will (or should) issue a retraction, correction, clarification, and/or apology, for making a false statement or allowing a false statement to go unchallenged. Will Steve Gilchrist, or the host Michael Cohen who supervised that debacle of a discussion, either issue a correction, or at least allow a rebuttal including presentation of examples from the Quran?

Thanks for the clarification on "Islamism" Hugh. I can see clearly that BY does not imply an equivalence between Islamism and Islam-minus-jihad-etc. Yet this shows that it is possible to use the term Islamism without suggesting it is a new and perverted version of Islam. Using the term Islamism is useful for government officials - even though now the British have dropped it for "violent extremism" - since it allows the thought that Islam might be something that Muslims can limit to personal matters. Of course we know that Islam is traditionally not a personal thing, but there is no way that any government official will touch the word Islam, as in Islamic terrorism for example, so Islamism is a step in the right direction, away from concepts that have no relation to Islamic doctrine whatsoever, to the truth. So I am in agreement with you that Islamism can be used properly, without implying that it is a new, deviant ideology. But I am not sure how useful you think it can be. After all, which I keep coming back to, why is it OK for BY to use it (and I don't object to her use of it) and not others? Surely we can spell out that Islamism is not something different from Islam, that it is, as I keep saying "Islamic" enough. But that doesn't make Islamism exactly the same as Islam.

As BY puts it herself in her 2002 essay, Dhimmitude and Marcionism:

Though one cannot presume the individual feelings and opinions of millions of Muslims or generalize on the totality of Islamic civilization, it must be admitted that Bin Laden’s concepts are expounded in all the classical writings of Muslim jurists going back to the 8th century, constantly repeated and taught over the centuries. These precepts were the basis of relations with non-Muslims and they are still studied and reproduced today. As Father Henri Boulad, an Egyptian Jesuit and specialist of Islam wrote: “Islamism is Islam.”

The clue as to why she does not just use the term Islamic instead of Islamist in her other writings is here, it seems, that Islam refers to Islamic civilisation, not just the canonical doctrine. This civilisation must be, I guess, broader than the core, orthodox doctrine which bin Laden and the Brotherhood, etc, rely on.

"Steve Gilchrist didn't claim the killing, or fighting involving killing, of disbelievers was just or defensive."

Unfortunately, in a public arena corrupted by irrationality, sophistry too often holds sway. One tactic of sophistry is to utter formulations that can be technically correct given an insistence on a superficial technicality, but upon closer inspection, may well be factually wrong.

Thus, if it were true that the QTL root words in those ostensibly violent verses of the Koran only mean "fighting" and not killing, or even primarily mean "fighting" and only secondarily mean "killing" -- then it would be technically correct to say, "There is no verse in the Koran commanding or encouraging the killing of unbelievers." And I know for a fact that many Islam apologists use precisely this tactic for those verses.

Assuming that Gilchrist is not himself evil, and that he is not simply ignorant and obtusely so, one reasonably assumes that he has become persuaded of this sophistical technicality -- but sincerely so, as a dupe of clever Islam apologists. If all those verses are properly translated as "fight" and not "kill", then logically, they are exculpated in terms of self-defense (for offensive fighting that involves killing is "killing" in the sense of murder), or even further, in terms of some kind of non-violent "struggle" against others.

While it is unlikely that Gilchrist is a moron, it is not unlikely that he would swallow such an apologetic exculpation of those violent verses without seeing any need to investigate further and find out for himself that in fact those QTL root words in Arabic primarily mean "kill".

You continue to believe that the word "Islamism" is useful; I think it not only not useful, but dangerous. And again, there are two audiences: Muslims and non-Muslims. Muslims know perfectly well what Islam teaches. Some of them, those we call "extremists," do not mind our knowing, and are perfectly prepared to publicly and repeatedly remind the world's Muslims of their duties, and not to let transient calculations of self-interest (as, for example, to protect their positions in the advanced Western world) to prevent them from doing their duty. Some of those "extremists" are well-known and their remarks given attention -- Bin Laden and Ayman Al-Zawahiri come to mind. Others, such as local imams who live in the West, unless they are consistently, wildly, as publicly-as-possible "extremist" (cf. Anjem Choudary) may be given far less attention, or by now collective eyes glaze over, and we don't really care any more, we've lost interest.

Those Muslims who do not publicly echo these sentiments may, or may not, share them. Some are more prudent. Some justify their failure to participate directly in violent Jihad as being justified because they are engaged in other, more effective, forms of Jihad -- and they are right. Still others may not wish to think about the matter at all, but they will also do what they can to defend Islam even though that will mean mis-representing it, because they themselves have no good answer to a question that would naturally occur to the non-Muslims among whom they live; if Muhammad had sexual intercourse with little Aisha when she was nine, and if Muhammad is the Perfect Man (al-insan al-kamil) for all time, how can you possibly remain a Muslim? Or: if the Qur'an tells you to slay the Unbelievers if they do not submit, and contains another 100-odd "Jihad" verses (see the Calcutta Qur'an Petition), or if you are instructed not to take "Christians and Jews as friends" or if this, or if Muhammad was happy to lead that raid on the inoffensive farmers of the Khaybar Oasis, or happy to hear of the killing of Asma bint Marwan, or this, or that, or this and that, then how in god's name can you continue to call yourself a Muslim, despite the understandable tug of filial piety? When we now have the examples of Ibn Warraq, Wafa Sultan, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Nonie Darwish, and many many others whose names are not known to the world, a new standard has been set: why don't you join them?

You, dlp, think we should go easy on such people, and keep using this recent and false distinction between "Islam" and "Islamism." But you keep overlooking that in the world we live in, it is the non-Muslims who need an education in Islam, not Muslims.It is they whose leaders have been so quick to seek for excuses, and exculpating categories, so that we can call the dangerous ones the "violent extremists" or the "tiny minority of extremists" or those "who have hijacked Islam" or "hijacked a great religion" or this or that. And then, in that kind of atmosphere, we end up with Bush and Blair telling us that Islam is a great religion, full of peace and tolerance, with Blair even soulfully revealing that he has been going around with a Qur'an in his pocket to study it (what did he learn, and what's more, when will he get to the Sunnah?).
And much of the Western world is still lead by people who do not follow all of the news -- they haven't, I'm sure, been aware of the attacks by Muslims on Buddhists, for example, haven't connected the murders of teachers and farmers in southern Thailand to murders just the other day, of Buddhists in the Chittagong Hills region of Bangladesh, to the cruel blowing-up of the Bamiyan Buddhas by the Taliban, aided by Saudi and Pakistani engineers -- blew them up because...they could.

Those who keep up with this "Islam" vs. "Islamism" thing are merely providing one more variant that will not really soothe Muslim sensisibilities, and will not only not be of help to non-Muslims, in clearing up confusions, but will simply offer another way to stay confused, another excuse to remain wilfully ignorant. The only thing that this distincition between "Islam" and "Islamimsm" really will delay things, intolerably. That phony distinctioin will delay the day when non-Muslims, in sufficient numbers, come to grasp the essence of the ideology of Islam, understand the many different instruments and goal, rightly understood, of Jihad, and furthermore, know that we have been led wrongly to believe that this conflict, prompted by what Islam inculcates, has an end, when it goes on forever, or that it can somehow be "solved" if we appease, and we tend to favor using, as the coin of our appeasement, the safety and security of other nations, or in some cases, in the safety and security of our own posterity, future generations who will wonder why, so unnecessarily and so thoughtlessly, those who should have long ago understood Islam continued to ignore what it teaches, continued to sink into folly upon expensive, and dangerous, folly.

Hesperado hasn't presented evidence that q-t-l in the relevant verses in question means fight but don't kill.

Hesperado hasn't presented evidence that Steve Gilchrist believes that, in the relevant verses, q-t-l doesn't mean kill or fighting involving killing.

It's important to remember that Gilchrist made a sweeping categorical statement that the Quran does not tell Muslims to kill unbelievers. His claim logically entails that there is not even one such verse in the Quran. It's obviously false.

Hesperado hasn't presented evidence that q-t-l in the relevant verses in question means fight but don't kill.

I didn't say they mean "fight" rather than "kill". I said that Islam apologists say that. I also said they are incorrect.

Hesperado hasn't presented evidence that Steve Gilchrist believes that, in the relevant verses, q-t-l doesn't mean kill or fighting involving killing.

There is no evidence of this, but it is the most logical explanation, since otherwise he would either have to be 1) evil (in cahoots with Islam apologists knowing that he is covering up dangerously violent verses); or 2) an extraordinary moron. The more likely explanation is that he has become persuaded of this apologetic sophistry which I have heard many times from different Islam apologists.

Hesperado,

This seems very far-fetched. I've never seen an apologist claim that all those relevant q-t-l verses mean fight but not kill. I've heard some crazy apologist lines, and would not put it past some of them to try something like that, but it doesn't seem like something most apologists would attempt or advise others to attempt. I will believe your argument about what Gilchrist believes when I see Gilchrist use that apologetic line, or when there is evidence that someone has put him on to it.

I doubt that Gilchrist has any idea how ludicrous his statement was; but considering these articles of Hugh's are now widely posted throughout the blogosphere, Gilchrist may come across this very thread. (And if he does see this thread, he will see your description of the apologetic)

I just listened again to Gilchrist for the relevant quotes (Part 2, around the 5 minute mark). Here's my transcription (for all practical purposes it is consistent in meaning with Hugh's description):

5:03 [Gilchrist is saying that if he were a Muslim he'd be extremely concerned that imams are not standing up and] "reading from the Quran where it says you don't kill non-believers."

Coren briefly interjects to say "Some are." [i.e., some imams are reading this]

Gilchrist continues about what the Quran says... "You may pity them [non-believers], you may think of them as lesser beings."

5:10 Gilchrist "It does not say in the Quran that you should go out and kill non-Muslims."

Coren immediately asks him "Does it not?"

And about at the same time as Coren's question, which goes unanswered, Tarek Fatah starts talking about the Saudi Wahhabi Qurans, and so on.

Kinana,

From your transcription of the precise statement I amend my analysis of Gilchrist in part: he is not an extraordinary moron, but an ordinary one.

A pity you misread me Hugh. I can't help feel that you are putting words into my mouth. I'm not sure you actually read what I wrote. I don't keep using this distinction in the way you say I am. I said Islamism is Islamic - one cannot radically separate the concepts, but neither can you conflate the terms. I, like Bat Ye'or, find the term "Islamism" or "Islamist" useful, but not because it leaves Islam clean of jihad, etc. You yourself said that David Littman in the UNHRC found it useful to use this term given the political pressures of the environment there. Government officials do too, since they certainly are not going to use the term "Islamic" in relation to terrorism. "Islamist" clearly denotes a Muslim with political aspirations. "Muslim" does not. Like Bat Ye'or implies in the quote above, "Islam" may (rightly or wrongly) be considered as a civilisation, but "Islamism" clearly denotes a political ideology and there is nothing in the term that necessitates it be divorced from Islamic tenets. "Islamism" does not have to imply a distinction from "Islam" but can be a more specific term that makes its political dimension explicit. Why can't "Islamism" be defined as based upon classical Islamic tenets? Of course it can. And that is the way that Bat Ye'or uses it. One doesn't have to use the term in the way that Pipes etc does. They do not have a monopoly on the use of the term or the underlying concept.

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