Why the assumption that we have something to prove? Meanwhile, we're expected to take Islam's claims of "tolerance" (which is according to its own definition and standards, not the Western tradition) as an article of politically correct faith. The tasteless positioning of a mosque near Ground Zero is also intended to foist another part of that dogma on New Yorkers -- namely, that Islam had nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks, so a mosque in that location ought to be quite alright, right?
But there are two problems here: 1. Islamic jihad was the motivation behind those attacks, and 2. it is Islam that has a problem with tolerance, as is made clear by its own texts and teachings (one may start with Qur'an 9:29, 98:6), and the abundance of Islamic nations cited as "Countries of Particular Concern" in the annual report of the United States Commission on International Religious Freedom.
Lastly, the fact that this project is called the "Cordoba House" adds a certain level of insult to injury. In that vein, someone might ask Imam Rauf about the Hagia Sophia sometime.
"New Yorkers Wary Of Future Ground Zero Mosque," from CBS, May 6:
NEW YORK (CBS) ― In a building damaged by debris from the Sept. 11 airliners that brought down the World Trade Center and soon to become a 13-story mosque, some see the bridging of a cultural divide and an opportunity to serve a burgeoning, peaceful religious population. Others see a painful reminder of the religious extremism that killed their loved ones.
Anything having to do with that day, that place, carries enormous meaning. Now two Islamic organizations have partnered to build something that they say will bring some good from something very bad.
Organizers say the project will create a venue for mainstream Islam and a counterbalance to radicalism. It earned a key endorsement this week from influential community leaders.
"This is a community center, a community and cultural center, which would include certainly prayer space for Muslims and we hope for non-Muslims as well, to bring about a new discourse in the relationship between the United States, New York City, and the Muslim world," said Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf of the Cordoba Initiative.
He's hoping the 13-story, $100 million Islamic center will join the other buildings; the banks, offices, and apartments, going up at ground zero. It will serve a growing Muslim population in lower Manhattan.
The closest mosque to this area is a dozen blocks away and very over-crowded, but this site was also chosen for exactly what happened here on 9/11, and what America stands for, Rauf told CBS station WCBS-TV in New York City.
"Definitely, this is a victory of American tolerance over hatred," Rauf said.
But some 9/11 victims' families say the issue isn't tolerance.
It's sensitivity.
"I don't like it," said Evelyn Pettigano, who lost a sister in the attacks, during a phone interview on Thursday. "I'm not prejudiced. ... It's too close to the area where our family members were murdered."
"I lost my brother, Sean. He was a fireman," Rosaleen Tallon said.
"As an American I am so proud of our freedom of religion, but I also think we have to be historically sensitive to what happened in that area," Tallon said.
Tallon wants to teach her son, Paddy, to be tolerant of other religions. But she wonders if other religions, like Islam, are teaching their children to be tolerant of hers. There are other places in the city, she said, for another mosque.
"I don't think that they would build a German cultural center right near Auschwitz. Just because you're looking at what happened to the people that died there. That's all that should be focused on," Tallon said.
The organizations publicly unveiled the preliminary plan for the project, known as the Cordoba House, on Wednesday at a meeting of the finance committee of the local community board, which is composed of influential stakeholders in lower Manhattan. While the agency has no authority over what can be developed at the site, their support is viewed as key to gaining acceptance from residents....
Great. When do we break ground on that church down the street from the Kabaa???
Wary. They should be defiant.
And Rauf needs to STFU and go pound sand.
While many Americans are scrambling for money to pay for their health insurance, fiends are spending $100 million
to erect a phallic symbol to tower over ground zero...
'Organizers say the project will create a venue for mainstream Islam and a counterbalance to radicalism'.
It wont counter-balance my radicalism...I can feel it surging in my veins...
'create a venue for mainstream Islam'...
Are you nuts?
This is disgusting. To use for the purposes of burnishing what for the well-informed will always remain the permanently-blackened "image" of Islam, by putting up a mosque -- a mosque in which, one assumes, the worshippers to that mosque subscribe to the contents of the Qur'an, Hadith, and Sira, and therefore believe such things as 9.29 and 9.5 and many other similar calls for hatred and violence toward Unbelievers -- that is, non-Muslims -- is to be put up right near the World Trade Center, as if a building can undo the texts and those who, taking those texts to heart, destroyed that very Trade Center and those who worked in its offices, as a public-relations stunt, a permanent one, for all to see, one more example of the phoniness of all those Muslim Outreach Nights, where the gullible come to be gulled, because they enter knowing nothing about Islam, and leave knowing, or believing, only what the smiling plausible Muslim spokesmen offer as they spin their tales of victimization and offer their deep, sincere, expressions of horror and amazement that people "calling themselves Muslims" could "do a thing like that") oh, and don't forget, after the talk, if you all behave yourselves and don't ask any uncomfortable or probing questions, there will be a real feast -- chicken, and pita, and rice, and baklava-like desserts!).
As to Feisal Abdul Rauf himself, search for his name at this website, or if you prefer, google him, to find out more.
The quotes in this article make me sad. All of those quoted who suffered losses to the gratuitous carnage of 9/11 are trying to be so politically correct.
A thirteen-story mosque? Who, in his right mind, would set up shop in a building that was damaged and possibly structurally compromised, by our Muslim friends on 9/11? Someone who wants to plant a victory flag, I suppose.
This "mosque" is meant to be nothing more and nothing less than a sign of (perceived) conquest.
I suggest that a replica of the Hagia Sophia (minus the minarets) be built near ground zero instead. Want to bet that our "tolerant" Muslim friends would howl about such disrespect shown to them. And imagine what our cowardly (pin it on the white guy) Mayor Bloomberg would say about such a project.
This is rubbing salt in the wound. I wonder if we'll hear from Caesar Bloomberg on this.
There is one group who can successfully challenge this decision...the Families of Victims of 9-11. If enough of them petition New York City to reconsider, the political pressure will be too great to bear.
Certainly there will be a small group from within the 'Victims' who are blind to the realities that killed their loved ones and who will advocate on behalf of the Islamic Center. But if enough networking is done, it should be clear that an overwhelming majority will be opposed.
It reminds one of the 'Crescent of Embrace' in that hollowed in Pennsylvania. Who is behind these affronts to the victims?
Should read..."hollowed field"
STOP THE 9-11 MOSQUE!!!!!
Every non-muhammadan in New York should have one and wear it constantly.
Bumper stickers!
Billboards!
Demonstrations!
kkkoran handouts!
I'm looking to Pam Geller at Atlas Shrugs to take the lead on this.
IT MUST BE STOPPED!
This, folks, is the fulcrum. If you can't make a stand on ground zero, then it's over.
If this mosque of hum
To hear these imams talk about tolerance and acceptance would be hilarious if it were not so utterly disgusting . No one needs another mosque coming up there . This is just rubbing salt in the wounds of those who lost their loved one's on 9/11 . Hope the people of NY stop this from happening .
.....Yeah....what a good idea....anything else you would like Osama?......after all, it's Allah's land anyway....it's all willed to happen........just as any/all Muslims imagine it......and so it goes on and on.....
Apparently, the local community board unanimously approved the mosque. It's time to protest big time folks. Sounds like a good project for the SOIA to take up. I'll send money from India even.
This will definitely be a muslim victory symbol. I'm surprised that no one gets it. This is what they have been doing for ages; destroying religious/cultural symbols and building theirs over or close to the original to crow over the locals. This will attract a lot of insecure Americans of all ethnicity to Islam; the old build a dominant symbol has been one of their favored ways of getting new recruits in conquered populations
"This 'mosque' is meant to be nothing more and nothing less than a sign of (perceived) conquest."
That is exactly how I would perceive it -- a very visible chess piece in the Islamization of America.
To have even contemplated this is a slap in the face, and proves that our suffering on 9/11 means NOTHING to them in the grand scheme of things.
This is damnable idea from the get-go.
Imam: Mosque near Ground Zero would prove American religious tolerance
And why the hell should Americans should try to prove religious tolerance to the most intolerant, American-murdering, religious madmen?
Why, instead, not proving American PRIDE by forbidding anything islamic (including shashlik, pita, baklava and burqa) within 7 miles radius from the ground zero? Make the lower Manhattan Izzlum-free zone.
Don't prove tolerance to your enemy. Prove resolve. It is way safer.
I've said this elsewhere on the site, this is a hideous proposal, an abomination. It only goes to prove how corrupting the ideology of islam really is.
But, what are the odds that some form of Islamic centre will be build at or near this site and Hillary Clinton or Obama will attend the opening giving a speach glorifying the tolerant virtues of islam.
Look around India (and what is now pakistan and bangladesh)and you'll find numerous Islamic monuments built on the land where Hindus were butchered. And you know the what the funny thing is (if you can call it that), Indians for generations have come to regard these monuments as part of their own heritage and many go there to look at them in reverence, going away with nothing but respect for islam.
This is what is store for Americans. Come what may, muslims will build an islamic monument on the very site Islam took revenge on kuffars and the kuffars will come to pay their respect.
This is the Islamic way.
Still unclear if this is merely a proposal or if the atrocity has been given the go ahead.
Sadly, there's little difference nowadays, but if the latter then I'm truly sorry but the US people fully deserve the consequences of laying blindfolded on the floor whilst offering a nice, soft belly.
It's not American religious tolerance which must be proven here, despite what Imam Rauf says.
Instead, what must be shown to the world is the deep regret that the followers of Islam have for the atrocity of 9/11 committed by their fellow co-religionists.
Somehow, that regret just isn't being conveyed.
Instead, we see plans for a provocative edifice, to be erected near the heart of the wound.
Families of the victims, all Americans, all freedom-loving people must speak out to stop this proposed symbol of Muslim supremacy.
Pamela is gonna be apoplectic. This is right in her back yard. This is the Islamic equivalent of the raising of the flag on Mt. Suribachi. The whole country should go berserk over this. The whole site should be immediately sprayed with liquid pig manure. Use eminent domain to take the land for a public purpose such as a dog park. It's time for a bus ad campaign in New York. And maybe a kaffir riot, too.
A mosque near ground zero? How about if law enforcement officials treat any U.S. mosque as a political organization if that mosque gives out literature advocating sharia law or supports sharia in any other way. Then, if found supporting sharia, that mosque would lose its tax exempt status, since it would be classed as a political organization.
In Sahih Muslim, one of the two most canonical hadith collections, there are many hadith that help us understand why Muslim-majority nations, to this very day, all trample to one extent or another the religious rights and freedoms of non-Muslims:
In Sahih Bukhari, the most canonical of hadith collections, Muhammad said, "Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him."
There should be a moratorium on building more mosques anywhere in the West, until Muslim nations make it legal to build non-Muslim houses of worship and permit freedom of speech. There should be a moratorium on Muslim immigration to the U.S. until Muslim nations repudiate, in word and deed, Muhammad's death penalty for apostasy from Islam.
Everything you said, Yankel!
"Definitely, this is a victory of American tolerance over hatred," Rauf said.
CORRECTION: "Definitely this is a victory of islamic hatred over American tolerance."
MUSLIM CULTURAL CENTER? Oxymoron alert!
Even my dog is pissed. She keeps growling & saying, "Rauf, Rauf!" Down, Schnitzel!
This abonination must NOT be allowed to happen. Whatever that takes. Or as Roberto Duran said to Sugar Ray Leonard, "NO MOSQUE, NO MOSQUE!"
Who are the city planners that allowed this to even be proposed? Didn't ONE of them think "hmmmm, this could be a bad idea"?? How about the zoning department, they were all blind too??
This stinks.
I am appalled.
The implication that the burden is on New Yorkers to prove their "religious tolerance" is OUTRAGEOUS. You want to talk about "tolerance" or "cultural sensitivity?" how about you folks demonstrate it for a change and show the good taste not to build this crap where it will clearly be nothing more than a raised middle finger to the city. Make no mistake, this isn't going to be all-are-welcome, secular "community center." Muammar al-Gaddafi quoted the Turkish poet Ziya Gökalp when he said, "Mosques are our barracks, domes our helmets, minarets our bayonets, believers our soldiers." And that's absolutely true, now, if Col. Gaddafi is the misunderstander of Islam, and all the so-called moderates in our country are the only ones practicing their nutty death cult correctly, then why is it that Gaddafi has a wide voice in the Muslim world, and a following, our so-called moderates have the support of a nothing more than a deadly silence?
Folks,
It is precisely when our outrage has reached the boiling point that we need some humor to take the edge off. Please check out the following website:
http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/
Scroll down to 'Tribal Update 49'. It's in Hebrew with English subtitles, but it's hilarious...and if you keep watching, it just gets better.
Great. When do we break ground on that church down the street from the Kabaa???
That's the point. We're tolerant and they're not, so we gets these cocaine like rushes of piety and self-satisfaction, and think they feel no such things.
*** 8:12 ***
This is also why the Moslems will win, and we'll lose.
Cornelius,
Can you give some brief background on the Crescent of Embrace? I take it this at the Flight 93 site?
Thanks,
G
Maybe before it issues the building permit the Planning Commission should take a study of whether the widespread rumors of Moslems dancing in the streets of New York and New Jersey, tears of joy steaming down their faces when the first tower went down are true.
The federal gubmint surely showed no signs of interest in that research project.
*** 92:8 ***
But then again, maybe not.
“Tallon wants to teach her son, Paddy, to be tolerant of other religions…….”
Shameful. Disgusting. The naivety and failure to respect reality and truth is unbelievable. Looks like the Politically Correct US elite are obsessed as well as in love with their enemy. The illicit affair is effectively brought about and facilitated by the liberal use of Saudi money.
Islam is not a religion to respect and tolerate. It is a deathly cult that got started by a master criminal for the express purpose of killing, looting and raping of innocent and hard working people called as unbelievers for convenience. Koran is the mafia manual. 90% of its contents are hateful teachings designed to brainwash the killer gangs to go after their business ruthlessly believing that they are doing a divine loving job.
Most of the mosques are criminal sanctuaries where the hateful indoctrination is drilled. Allowing one near Groud Zero is a disgrace and an outright insult to those who died on 9/11. It is nothing short of rewarding the supporters of criminals to place the trophy of their conquest right in front of the victim’s burial ground. If the idea is to genuinely integrate with the so called religion of piece, let one Christian church complex be allowed to be constructed as a return gesture to 9-11 right near Mecca to remind the vast majority of visiting Umma to inculcate the need of mutually respecting religions. The one way fooling that is successfully going on is exactly like the behavior of victims who, over time, become sympathetic to their captors – a perfect Stockholm syndrome.
Far too few Brits fought back against the Islamization of their country. We need only look to their plight for a preview of America's fate if we don't fight this with all of our might:
*A Cry For Help From Great Britain*
http://blogs.cbn.com/stakelbeckonterror/archive/2010/05/06/a-cry-for-help-from-great-britain.aspx
There are new church and other place of non-muslim workship being built in Saudic Arabic you hater just donot see it.Only Mecca and Medine arenot open to built non-muslim place of workship.
"...some see the bridging of a cultural divide and an opportunity to serve a burgeoning, peaceful religious population." -- headline
Only those blinded by pc/mc garbage have this vision and are giving islam and its adherents WAY too much credit -- especially since islam & company are truly incapable of bridging any cultural divides by suggesting that there's a growing number of peaceful muslims to capitalize on. I mean here were go again with the, islam is a "religion of peace" nonsense. Not.
...here "we" go again
There are new church and other place of non-muslim workship being built in Saudic Arabic you hater just donot see it.
Oh yeah? Prove it.
This is straight from the Theatre of the Absurd!
It's the equivalent of America "proving" its tolerance and commitment to peace, by allowing the Soviet Union to build a missile silo in the heart of US in the 1950s.
For the entire Muslim world, this will either be a triumphant inside joke (Hey Abdul, have you heard this one, hmmffyuk, yuk!) and a message that the American Kuffar has finally been successfully cowed into submission after the bombing of their iconic towers. They have been so terrorised that they have lost their capacity to think clearly and are unable to resist the victorious march of islam. This capitulation to Islam, for that's what it is, will thus be an invitation for more attacks on American soil.
Bad idea. It should be thrown into the dust bin. Immediately.
George,
Yes, it was the flight 93 site. The Islamic symbol of the crescent moon may seem like an odd choice to become a symbol in a memorial for victims of Islamic terror, but that is exactly what happened. When the families protested, the design was slightly altered to become 'The Circle of Embrace'. As far as I remember, small stone structures were to be built honoring each of the victims of the crash AND THE 4 TERRORISTS.
I don't know if THOSE plans were similarly altered. It was a travesty...Liberal/Lefties deliberately insinuated themselves into the committees to decide on these memorials, in order to insure there was a multicultural narrative...instead of a patriotic one.
"I don't think that they would build a German cultural center right near Auschwitz."
Uh, yeah. And building a mosque on the ruins of Ground Zero is the exact same thing.
When I learned about this yesterday, I was in a state of shock. A state of total disbelief. I thought it had to be a joke. It's utter and complete insanity. This is America? You've got to be kidding. I don't recognize this bowing and scraping country anymore.
That this is happening - a mosque built near Ground Zero - is evil. An abomination. It must be stopped. What can we do besides write letters in protest?
CONTEXT, DOI ...
Christians have never murdered innocent Saudi's by hijacking Saudi planes, and then flying them into Saudi buildings. If they had, then you might have a point, ding-a-ling. DUH!
@defenderofislam
YOU ARE A LIAR AND THE FATHER OF LIES!
@defenderofislam
YOU ARE A LIAR AND THE FATHER OF LIES!
I have to echo, Yankel! ...and you're an idiot, too. Not to mention the "hater" here.
Muslims - the ultimate Haters.
@defenderofislam - you are a walking/talking advertisement for the derangement and dementia Islam inflicts on it's followers.
This mosque proposal at Ground Zero is like the Klan burning a cross in front of a church to test our religious tolerance of their 'mainstream' supremacist ideology. Sick!!
The answer from New York should be a resounding "NO!"
I distinctly recall seeing residents of Paterson, NJ dancing in the streets on 9/11. My spouse said, "Come in here right away. You're not going to believe this."
It was probably on FOX since we have always avoided the other networks. Let me take a look at You Tube.
The elite PC political class is shoving Islam down our throats so fast it's astounding. The mosque will be paid for by infidels too. It's disgusting.
DOI is a heartless & soulless CREEP of the CREEPIEST kind, which is all his offering reveals.
Of course he doesn't care that building this eyesore, heartsore, monstrosity of a mosque near Hallowed Ground is like rubbing salt in the wounds of those living in New York, the families of 9/11, and to all Americans.
This building project is an obscene affront to anyone with a heart, soul & conscience -- so it stands to reason that DOI couldn't care less.
Crawl back under your rock, CREEPY CRAWLER!!
Imam: Mosque near Ground Zero would prove American religious tolerance
Here's a little clip of the Elders of Mecca and their witless dhimmi victims!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdFLPn30dvQ
There's something a bit more subtle and odious than merely coincidental superposition of location of attack and building of an ideological edifice. It does not fall under the category of "goodwill" in my mind.
This proposal is entirely along the lines of building a mosque on top of the most holy site in Judaism and calling it an inviolable possession of Islam, a "waqf". Or the historical pattern of turning cathedrals and christian/jewish holy sites into Islamic shrines. It is along the lines of minarets being built all over Europe with a simple and obvious political function expressed by a single numerical quantity: height. In numerous instances (I suspect practically EVERY case, though I don't know of anyone who'se bothered to do a complete survey), the height of the minaret is taller than the highest church steeple in town. In many cases by just a meter or so; it doesn't seem to matter HOW much higher, as long as it is higher.
The steeple thing really rankles. You might say, "Yeah, but what do you call what Christians did by building those steeples in the first place?"
Well, as a christian and having a casual interest in such things (though my denomination doesn't bother itself with such "worldly" trappings as steeples) the architectural point of a steeple is very simple: these are "fingers that point to heaven". They are supposed to elevate one's awareness of GOD; they are icons of transcendence of a deity. If you're an athiest you might find this a bit distasteful -- I'll grant you that. But consider the Islamic meaning of a minaret: it is an outward sign of dominance of a RELIGION. It's purpose is to visually express political and religious ownership.
Now, I doubt any minarets on a mosque at ground zero would rival the surrounding skyscrapers -- by I'll bet dimes to dollars that any minarets built will be a meter taller than any church steeples within a 10 km radius. And I have no doubt that architectural elements of the design will be presented to insert islam into a supreme position.
They may as well build this mosque in the shape of a middle-finger, because that's EXACTLY what this is!
I am not tolerant of murderers, rapist, and liars. That is what the Koran teaches. All muslims may not be terrorists. But, 99% of terrorists are muslim. Please let Michael Bloomburg know how you feel. I will. Go to the site below.
This is the message I sent to the mayor.
I do not want a Mosque near the WTC site. Would people allow a German Cultural Center by Aushwitz? This is a terrible mistake for our Government to even contemplate this action. This is a calculated move by Muslims. If Muslims want to show how tolerant and peaceful they are,they would be respectful of all the lives that were murdered in the name of Allah just down the block from this site. Do you think the peaceful and tolerant would allow a Christian Church to be built in Mecca?
http://www.nyc.gov/portal/site/nycgov/menuitem.bd08ee7c7c1ffec87c4b36d501c789a0/index.jsp?doc_name=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nyc.gov%2Fhtml%2Fmail%2Fhtml%2Fmayor.html
I find this muslim lack of sensitivity to be one of the most shocking experiences of my life. And they present it as if it is a test of American resolve!
Muslims are aggressively getting in our politically correct faces with amazing arrogance because the Quran directs them to. They of course believe their religion is the only true religion on the planet.
They are laughing at us as they manipulate our overly tolerant society to their advantage at all times.
More sociopathic behavior from Allah minions.
Yes champ - they are still giving us the finger, from a few doors away from ground zero. What were the idiots on the zoning board thinking, when they approved this ?
Political correctness is destroying NYC and this country !
Thank you, Cornelius. I'll Google it-up now, but wanted your take first.
I see a little ray of hope there that the families could exert some influence on those MC-packed "committees." I can think of nothing more compelling than a protest from the victims' families. I hope they'll have a forum for this & will make their voices heard.
In fact, in a better world the responsible agency in a case like this one would put the decision as a referendum to the victims' families and abide by their decision. But then, in that better world, 9/11 wouldn't have happened. In that world there'd be no islam.
Stormwarning mentioned above that "this 'Mosque' is meant to be nothing more and nothing less than a sign of perceived conquest."
I wholly agree, but it's worse than that. If WE approve of it that would mean that WE perceive OURSELVES to be conquered. Yankel said, "If you can't make a stand on ground zero then it's over." Amen.
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=121082211251155&v=wall&ref=search#!/group.php?gid=121082211251155
Join this group...No to the mosque at WTC , if you're on Facebook.
Hi Bryan,
I just went over and posted this:
'PLEASE DONT LET THEM BUILD A MOSQUE NEAR GROUND ZERO, IT IS HEARTBREAKING. IT IS LIKE CROWING OVER THE DEATH OF SO MANY'
I selected India as country as this is where I live now but I was a New Yorker for a year; lived in Flatbush, worked in Soho and my college pal was SAVED BY THE POWERS THAT BE; she got transferred to Houston a month before 9/11 (she used to work in trade 2 before that)
Times Sq cleared out - suspicious package
No doubt left by Amish terrorist!
breaking news
Defender, let me help you here. This is an extremely sensitive issue for Americans. And, regardless where live, you are clearly NOT an American. So, may I, with all respect, ask you to kindly STFU? Thank you in advance.
Alles Verstand, mein goober?
http://www.earthcam.com/usa/newyork/timessquare/#
Times Square webcam
"Who are the city planners...?"
Good question. I assume New Yorkers know. A campaign of merciless public mocking and shaming needs to be brought to bear on these planners, and they should be hounded out of office. If the plans have already been approved they should be immediately rescinded using whatever legal tactics are necessary.
"What were the idiots on the zoning board thinking, when they approved this?"
No kidding, Paul, these are dhimmi & dummy hybrids ...
Yesterday the freakin' bus tied up Portsmouth all day (and that was a "misunderstanding"). Last week it was Times Square tied up for hours. Today it's Times Square tied up for hours again. Considering the fact that they haven't had a "success" in months, how much worse will it get if they do?
"I assume New Yorkers know. A campaign of merciless public mocking and shaming needs to be brought to bear on these planners, and they should be hounded out of office. If the plans have already been approved they should be immediately rescinded using whatever legal tactics are necessary."
In order to have a "campaign of merciless public mocking and shaming" you first need a public who thinks that Islam is at the heart of terrorism and, closely related to this, agree that such a position is not bigoted but rather is grimly knowledgeable.
Frankly, I don't think New York City, or any other place in the entire West (with one or two exceptions that prove the rule and furthermore are comparatively small in number -- e.g., the Dudley protest), has sufficient numbers to mount a sufficient protest against anything that smacks of condemning Islam by directly linking it to terrorism. If the U.S. had sufficient numbers, we would have seen a Million Man March on Washington by now.
Will Americans be able to mount a Million Man March on Washington by the 10th anniversay of 9/11/01, in 2011? I don't think they will be able, because in order to have one million people who not only condemn Islam but are willing to take the time, trouble and expense to go to Washington, D.C., to personally and publicly demonstrate their condemnation, there would likely have to be a larger pool of a few million, out of which only approximately one million can make the trip. I highly doubt there are a few million Americans who condemn Islam and directly link it to terrorism (among the many other evils and injustices one can directly link to Islam as a source).
Sounds like a job for the EDL, or make that ADL. Roof top protest anyone?
Dear Mayor:
Ground zero is a sacred place. It is no place for a Mosque. The Imam behind the Cordoba group makes excuses for the way islam treats it's women and says that the religion is tolerant. I suggest that the Cordoba group build a church in Mecca as a show of religious tolerance and respect for the people of New York.
I have absolutely no problem with Muslims thinking we Americans are intolerant. 'Couldn't care less what they think.
And Defender of Islam, we're all waiting. Serve up that evidence or keep your mouth shut.
i dont have a problem with the DEVIL and his followers thinking I AM INTOLERANT OF EVIL ..............WE ALL MUST BE INTOLERANT OF EVIL ....OFFCOURSE I MEAN ISLAM ...my only regret is i couldnt shop off that basta** Muhammed's head myself ........
the "shop" should have been actually "chop"....though really as a capitalist i could have even shopped off his head.........watever
Yes, a mosque near Ground Zero would indeed prove American religious tolerance, a tolerance markedly absent in the Islamic world. And even though such tolerance is tolerance too much, absurdly so in fact, it is nonetheless evidence of the stark contrast between the free world and the world of Islam, which is replete with repression, intolerance and hypocrisy.
Mosques anywhere, but especially in Western nations, stand as symbols of a heinous, hateful and deeply warped religious ideology. And all sensible and knowledgeable human beings should forever remember that the "but for" cause of 9/11 was Islam itself. But for Islam 9/11 would not have occurred. What motivated those 19 Arab monsters on that tragic day was Islamic doctrine, which is always there to inspire the more "enthusiastic" of Muslim believers, all the while that so-called moderate Muslims and ignorant dhimmis continue to insist that Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance, which is pure horseshit.
Yes, a mosque near Ground Zero may have the technical legal right to be there but that doesn't mean that it should be there. What is lawful must be accompanied by a proper moral sense, a sense of decorum and common sense, otherwise the law will be abused even though it remains the law. In short, a mosque in lower Manhattan where the WTC towers once stood can be lawfully existent but it will never be rightfully so.
Excellent Rubicon. Well done.
Karan,
I will be happy to go shopping or chopping with you, whatever is needed. I'll hold him down and you can chop away if you'd like. And then let's stop at the mall...I could use a couple new pairs of capris. Anything for a fellow capitalist anti-jihadist.
And why don't we call these mosques what they really are, ammo depots. Do we really need a thirteen story ammo depot within the shadow of ground zero? I think not.
There are new church and other place of non-muslim workship being built in Saudic Arabic you hater just donot see it.Only Mecca and Medine arenot open to built non-muslim place of workship.
DefenderofIslam | May 7, 2010 8:35 AM
But that is the whole point you savage; until Muhammadans allow total freedom of religion and conscience, including freedom of worship in Mecca and Medina. The rest of the world is going to view your actions and whining as nothing more than imperialist Islam trying to satisfy it's insatiable desire for one upmanship.
Worshipers of Baal and space rocks (Muhammadans), will always have this psychological flaw of needing to feel superior; it's inherent in all cults of idol worship.
DOI
Dude... Your nabi (pbuh), that's me nabi ZK (pbum), wants to know what kind of kif have you been smoking. Than chrich are not Saudi. Than bible not are allowed than Saudi. Why than hater everyone are Saudi? Not than mohametans play nice.
Your True Nabi (accept no substitutes)
nabi ZK (pbum)
Mayor Bloomberg and the New York City Council have sold their city down the river-- to the religion of terrorism. no less-- for thirty pieces of silver.
Maybe the citizens of new York City should consider conducting an election recall of Mayor Bloomberg. That would be the least they can do to repay him for this act of vile treason. DItto for the New York City Council.
There is never any reason to tolerate the intolerable. (Why am I starting to feel like one of the characters from the grade-Z horror flick, NIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD....).
WE MUST STOP THIS MOSQUE FROM BEING BUILT on GROUND ZERO. Instead we must rebuild the World Trade Towers!
Just to be fair to DOI there are infact some churches listed as being present in the Magic Kingdom, specifically Riyadh:
http://www.thecatholicdirectory.com/directory.cfm?fuseaction=search_directory&country=SA&absolutecity=Riyadh
These are probably someones living room though.
PLEASE KEEP SENDING EMAILS TO MAYOR BLOOMBERG TO VOICE YOUR DISPLEASURE. YOU CAN BET THAT MUSLIMS ARE SENDING EMAILS IN SUPPORT FOR THE MOSQUE.
http://www.nyc.gov/portal/site/nycgov/menuitem.bd08ee7c7c1ffec87c4b36d501c789a0/index.jsp?doc_name=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nyc.gov%2Fhtml%2Fmail%2Fhtml%2Fmayor.html
IT IS SAD THAT OUR LEADERS ARE SELLING OUT AMERICA IN EXCHANGE FOR SAUDIA MONEY. COLLEGE CAMPUSES ALL OVER AMERICA HAVE LONG AGO ABANDED THE FOUNDATIONS OUR COUNTRY WAS BASED ON.
I commented on this appalling proposal yesterday after Cornelius posted a link.
Read this meretricious account of the proposed Cordoba House, full of intentional inaccuracies such as the positing of a "golden age" of Muslim, Christian and Jewish culture allegedly found in Muslim Al-Andalus, and ruined by Ferdinand and Isabella; Muslim presence in the pre-Columbian America; Columbus' supposedly heavily Muslim crew; and the claim that the United States' African-American population is well over one-third Muslim, and on its way to *one half*; and that—largely as a result—America has a Muslim population of *up to 16 million*:
"Cordoba Initiative alone is an Islamic organization that aims to to achieve a tipping point in Muslim-West relations within the next decade, steering the world back to the course of mutual recognition and respect and away from heightened tensions.Ahlul Bayt News Agency (ABNA.ir), United States"
................
"A tipping point"—I think we can all imagine what that would entail, putting us on the course to full Islamization. Fight back!
http://rupeenews.com/2010/05/06/cordoba-house-in-nyc-symbol-of-christo-islamic-civilization/
Dogs they are...marking their territory on our collective national grief with their mosque in the name of tolerance and acceptance. The same way the Flight 93 Passenger Memorial has been symbolically co-opted. And We, The People of The United States Of America have to prove our 'religious tolerance".
That would be in the words of Hugh a 'diseased tolerance, a tolerance for the greatest threat to real tolerance, but still, a "tolerance" of which so many continue to be so stupidly enthusiastic.' And it is stupidly promoted from on high; we have been told to respect it by our president. They mayor of NYC doesn't want to connect terrorism to Islam. Even after the Times Square incident. It's no wonder Muslims ask for, and get the considerations they do.
Done. Thanks for the link :)
I THINK A CHRISTIAN CHURCH SHOULD BE BUILT AT THAT SITE. A CHRISTIAN CHURCH THAT'S NOT SCARED TO SPEAK THE TRUTH ABOUT ISLAM. I THINK FRANKLIN GRAHAM WOULD BE THE PERFECT MAN TO GIVE THE FIRST SERMON AT THIS CHURCH. I WOULD DONATE TO THIS CHURCH BEING BUILT.
AS A CHRISTIAN, I HAVE LEFT MY CHURCH BECAUSE THEY REFUSE TO SPEAK ABOUT THE EVIL OF AND THE THREAT OF ISLAM. I HOPE THAT OTHER CHRISTIANS WILL DO THE SAME.(I'M HAVING A HARD TIME FINDING A CHURCH. A CHURCH THAT SPEAKS THE TRUTH.)
JUST THINK OF THE POWER THAT A "JOEL OLSTEEN" COULD HAVE IF HE HAD THE GUTS TO SPEAK THE TRUTH ABOUT ISLAM. I'M SENDING MY OFFERING MEANT FOR MY OLD CHURCH TO FRANKLIN GRAHAM.
That's enough. These imams should go back to Middle east or Pakistan-Afganistan. You cannot straighten a dog's tail by putting it into a test tube. No matter what you do for them - they get food, shelter and security here - yet they want to strike back. Basically their belief system is to be ungrateful. Quran teaches them to create fear, kill the non-muslims. Let us not insult the great ones who gave their lives on 9/11. I salute those brave ones who are fighting to keep the homeland safe.
I would join that Million Man March if it happened next year. Sounds like a great idea to me.
George wrote:
Can you give some brief background on the Crescent of Embrace? I take it this at the Flight 93 site?
.................
I know Cornelius already replied to you, George, but here's some more on the appalling "Crescent of Embrace".
Here is Michele Malkin on the subject, with many quotes from others and an architectural drawing of the proposed memorial:
http://michellemalkin.com/2005/09/10/flight-93-memorial-seeing-is-believing/
The "Crescent of Embrace" is—horrifyingly—actually a Qibla, which means it is *a mosque*, oriented east toward Mecca. Designers say this is merely a coincidence, predicated on the layout of the site.
I think the victims and their surviving loved ones already are well aware of what it is like to have felt the baneful "embrace" of Islam.
I am not sure what the current status of this "memorial" is at this point—I believe it has just been put on hold due to the upset at the disturbing design.
The heroes of Flight 93 deserve a proper memorial. Until then, I would suggest seeing the film "United 93", which—without hyperbole—gives a very good account of 9/11 and these American heroes.
Disgusting. I have no problem with mosques being built in America (as long as they aren't scattered around the place like flies), we do have freedom of religion, but to put it near a symbol which has ruined many lives because of the stupidness of the religion, and to mock the feelings these victims have suffered, is plain dickbaggery.
It's like waving the Jainist flag in a Holocaust memorial. Except Jainism is by far a stupid religion.
Have they no sense of shame, decency or respect?
On the Crescent of Embrace project, I had some email correspondence with a guy, Alec Rawls, who has taken a lot of time to research it.
The main architect was Paul Murdoch, who disingenuously denies any conscious intention to inject Islamic themes, including the qibla, into his Flight 93 Memorial project.
I did a little Googling on Murdoch and found that he has done a few architectural projects in the Middle East.
Here is my email correspondence with Rawls:
_____________________
On Paul Murdoch's official website, it says:
"He has worked in Los Angeles with AIA Gold Medalists Arthur Erickson and Charles Moore"
So I googled "Arthur Erickson", and look what I found:
http://www.arthurerickson.com/p_IUM.html
____________________
Great work Hesperado. I believe you found the original model for Murdoch’s mosque:
[Rawls here inserts this photo of the Islamic university of madinah, the project of architect Arthur Erickson who is a colleague of the Crescent of Embrace architect Paul Murdoch:
https://mail.google.com/mail/h/1h6ryocgouhyq/?view=att&th=11c431f055370757&attid=0.2&disp=emb&zw ]
This is the open air mosque at the center of the Madinah campus layout. The columns are called “riwaqs.” They represent the standing palm trees on which Muhammad’s original mosque was built. Replace the columns with trees and form them into the shape of a mihrab (seen in the center) and you have Murdoch’s mosque.
In most modern mosques, like the one seen above, the riwaqs surround the courtyard area, before entering the prayer area beyond. But in Muhammad’s original mosque, the riwaqs surrounded the prayer area. Thus by bringing the mihrab and the riwaqs together, Murdoch is actually going back to Muhammad’s original design.
It could be this Erickson character who actually figured it out. And uh oh. It looks like he is backed by Saudi money.
P.S. The entire Madinah campus points to Mecca, which is not quite due south:
[second photo provided by Rawls:
https://mail.google.com/mail/h/1h6ryocgouhyq/?view=att&th=11c431f055370757&attid=0.1&disp=emb&zw ]
__________________________
The difficulty in connecting it up is that Erickson is such a big firm. Murdoch apparently worked with them for 7 years, and Erickson did TWO big Saudi universities, but finding out who worked on what within Erickson’s firm would probably require some inside people coming forward.
_____________________________
The second architect that Paul Murdoch lists prominently on his official website as a colleague and collaborator, Charles Moore, also has done major work on Islamic architecture:
From this website on the "Aga Khan award" in architecture:
"The Aga Khan Award for Architecture was established in 1977, to enhance the understanding and appreciation of Islamic culture as expressed through architecture."
It lists Charles Moore as recipient of 1992 awards for architectural design along with someone named Selma Al-Radi for the following structures:
a "Cultural Park for Children" in Cairo, Egypt, as well as the "Demir Holiday Village" in Turkey, as well as something called "East Wahdat Upgrading Programme" in Jordan, as well as the "Kairouan Conservation Programme" in Tunisia, and the "Palace Parks Program" in Turkey, and the "Panafrican Institute for Development" in Burkina Faso (a country with 50% Muslims and member of the Organization of Islamic Conference), and something called "Stone Building System" in Syria.
Also, the Aga Khan award site describes its architectural philosophy:
"community improvement and development, restoration, re-use, and area conservation, as well as landscaping and environmental issues."
And it has a link to a sub-specialty in architecture called "vernacular architecture", which involves using local customs and materials for architectural building.
On Paul Murdoch's official website, he also prominently features his interest in "vernacular architecture", and describes architectural interests and orientation similar to the Aga Khan site:
"He has spoken extensively on the critical role of design and relationship of architecture to the environment through topics such as sustainable development, ecological urban planning, building re-use, and the poetics and practicality of recycling. His background and travel experience includes research of vernacular architecture in traditional cultures as well as modernism."
________________
Very interesting.
This is not the first Aga Khan connection.
One of the Muslim scholars who the Park Service called upon to whitewash Murdoch’s design was a Paul Murdoch classmate from UCLA who is now Aga Khan professor of Islamic architecture at MIT.
http://web.mit.edu/4.614/www/nasserbio/titlepagenr.html
Doing some looking, the Aga Khan is the leader of the “Ismaili Shia,” a mostly Indian and Iranian sect. They seem to have some money, and are not state based.
I suspect it is just a source of funding that these guys managed to tap into, possibly becoming a vehicle for their contacts with each other.
Looking at Moore’s children’s park in Cairo, I expected to find another open air mosque, pointing to Mecca, and sure enough:
I’ll have to find the address so I can get an overhead view on Google earth and verify that the palm lined strip with the mihrab at the end points to Mecca, but I presume it does.
This is actually very close to Murdoch’s design. It uses standing palm trees to represent the standing palm trees from Muhammad’s original mosque, so that the prayer area and the courtyard get combined into one, as in Muhammad’s mosque and Murdoch’s mosque.
_______________
[In a subsequent email, Rawls said of Paul Murdoch:]
He did his own master’s thesis project on Middle Eastern architecture: a museum in Haifa.
That makes his proclaimed obliviousness to Islamic symbol shapes all the more implausible.
Done. Thanks for the link :)
"Now two Islamic organizations have partnered to build something"
Which two Islamic organizations?
"Organizers [of the project] say..."
What organizers? Who besides "Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf of the Cordoba Initiative" is involved in this?
Who is funding this "$100 million dollar" project?
"...the finance committee of the local community board, which is composed of influential stakeholders in lower Manhattan..."
What are the names of those who approved this?
--------------
Last I checked, the CBS poll beside the main article indicated that only 7% of readers approved of this mosque project.
Jainism a stupid religion ?????
Jainism is an ancient religion of India that prescribes a path of non-violence towards all living beings. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism
If only all religions could be that stupid.
"It's like waving the Jainist flag in a Holocaust memorial. Except Jainism is by far a stupid religion."
Whaaaat? What does Jainism have to do with the Holocaust? Answer: Nothing.
No, Jainism ISN'T "stupid." Here's what's "stupid" - ISLAM. BARBARIC MASS-MURDERING ISLAM.
Jainists don't kill people. Jainists don't even kill insects. What's your dumb beef against Jainism?
MOSLIM BE CAREFUL ...........YOUR OVER-ACTING has been tolerated for too long ..............NEXT TIME you BLABBER ............believe me ..............i will curse you to HELL .........and no MUHAMMED will save you ...........
And again......
The paradox of tolerance: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. — In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law, and we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal, in the same way as we should consider incitement to murder, or to kidnapping, or to the revival of the slave trade, as criminal. ”
Karl Popper "The Open Society and it’s Enemies"
Khalil Harin : ......offcourse ......on a western forum you would say Jainism is stupid .......and on a Eastern forum you would say ........western culture is stupid ..........KALIL U SATAN .........I WILL ENSURE YOU WILL GO TO HELL ..................BELIEVE ME .......YOU ARE GOING TO HELL ...........now forget everything .....YOU ARE GOING TO HELL .....................HELL HELL ......BELIEVE ME YOU ARE .............HELL KHALIL ........HELL YOU LIAR..HELL........
Hi Graven, and thank you.
United Flight 93. The sounds of struggle in the cockpit as the muslims kill the flight-crew (Pilot Jason Dahl lived in my city). The flight-attendant, resisting and screaming for her life until...the only sound is the muslim saying, "There, I finish." The heart-rending cell-calls from passengers. The unanswered controller's calls: "United 93, Cleveland Center, do you read?" Silence. Todd Beamer reciting the Lord's Prayer with operator Lisa Jefferson, in what he knew were to be the last minutes of his life. His courage and sense-of-rightness, and that of the passengers who joined him in rushing the muslim criminals. "Let's roll!" The muslims shouting "Allahu Akbar!" And then...
It would be so difficult to create a monument to do this justice. How at once to capture the terror, the anger, the sadness...and yet the defiance, the pride, the heroism?
And this "architect" comes up with THAT THING?
An islamic-crescent FACING MECCA? THAT'S how he honors our AMERICAN HEROES? It's not even an honest attempt. Were the "judges" smoking crack? All muslims?
Sorry, ranting again. All of this is just beyond belief.
Thanks again, Cornelius & Gravenimage. I want to see if I can track this and find-out where it stands now.
G
On the Crescent of Embrace project, I had some email correspondence with a guy, Alec Rawls, who has taken a lot of time to research it.
.................
Hesperado, thank you so much for all the additional information about the egregious "Crescent of Embrace". It seems Murdoch had much more extensive links to Islam than I had ever realized,
The main question I have is why the US Park Service—*not an Islamic organization*, by any means—would decide to go with Paul Murdoch and something called the *Crescent of Embrace* in the first place?
All I can think is that it is political correctness run absolutely amok.
Do you know what the status of the project is now?
Wow Hesp. That was awesome. Thank you. What a bunch of creepy suck up dhimmis.
nabi ZK (pbum)
Hesp, that is superb research! Thank you & it explains so much about the "Crescent of Embrace," doesn't it!
Zonie Kafir: I was hoping that Nabi ZK (PBUH)
would arrive on-scene to place the CURSE of NABI (TM) on the DOI!
Hi Kim,
That's what he is trying to say; that Islam is to ground zero like Jainism is to the holocaust. Remember, taquiyya and lying (especially to themselves) come naturally to muslims; even 'modern' 'secular' or 'moderate' ones
Ladies and gentlemen
re-read Oriana Fallaci's The Rage and the Pride. Then re-read 'The Force of Reason'.
Then see if you can imagine what Oriana - who was living in New York at the time of the September 11 jihad terror raid - would have done about this obscene proposal, were she still alive.
Then do it for her.
I am stuck here in Australia, thousands of miles away, so I can't do a damn thing except feel absolute fury at the sheer, calculated sadism and spiritual blasphemy involved in this Muslim act of what I can only call urinating on the graves of murdered people - of people who were deliberately murdered *by Muslims*, murdered *in obedience to the texts and tenets of Islam*.
This monstrous insult *must not be built*.
Hesperado seems to think that trying to do anything about this is pointless because there won't be enough people to matter.
I don't care if there aren't a million people...yet. Two or three will do, to begin, and I'm sure that Pam Geller and others in NYC can round up at least that many. Better to start with two, than to give up before even beginning.
For the Christians among us, here's what Our Lord had to say about the power of two, or three: "Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth, shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say unto you, *That if two of you* {my emphasis - dda} shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them".
Well: in twos and threes, if that's all you can rustle up to start with, O New York City jihadwatchers, begin the daily protests outside the site of this proposed monstrosity. Hand out flyers about Islam: jihadwatch poster Davegreybeard has some good ones, maybe he can send copies to Ms Geller. Offer people disks of 'Fitna'. Have 'Fitna' playing on a laptop computer...just the opening three or four minutes, the part that includes the footage of September 11 juxtaposed with the Quran verses.
This is the *obvious* campaign for SIOA.
I DO have a problem with mosques being built in the U.S.
A mosque is a center for Islamic thought, and most Islamic thought revolves around hatred of enemies (all 'infidels') and promotion of sharia law.
Islam is incompatible with freedon, democracy, and secularism.
If you don't have a problem with spreading Islam, then you do have a problem.
"Imam: Mosque near Ground Zero would prove American religious tolerance" - total BS.
We have over 2.7 million Muslims living that we tolerate everyday. If that is not enough. then park your flying carpet at someplace else.
NEVER 911 MOSQUE.
"Imam: Mosque near Ground Zero would prove American religious tolerance" - total BS.
We have over 2.7 million Muslims living here that we tolerate everyday. If that is not enough. then park your flying carpet at someplace else.
NEVER 911 MOSQUE
Thanks graven, zonie, and George: most of the leg work was done by Alec Rawls; I just did a little Googling. As to the current status, I found this recent article (April of this year) by Rawls which adds more details, and at one point as the reader will see, he writes of "...the giant Mecca-oriented crescent that is now being built atop the Flight 93 crash site...":
There are stealth jihadists who work in the field of Islamic symbolism, like the Los Angeles architect who designed the giant Mecca-oriented crescent that is now being built atop the Flight 93 crash site. A crescent that Muslims face into to face Mecca is called a mihrab, and is the central feature around which every mosque is built. (Some mihrabs are pointed arch shaped, but the archetypical mihrab is crescent shaped.) The planned memorial will be the world’s largest mosque.
Like Gaffney (sorry Frank, but you really wimped out on this one), the defenders of the crescent mosque are willing to embrace untenable excuses for their Islamic symbol shape. Asked how he could abide the Mecca orientation of the giant crescent, Patrick White, Vice President of Families of Flight 93, argued that the almost-exact Mecca-orientation cannot be intended as a tribute to Islam because the in-exactness of it (within 2° of Mecca) would be “disrespectful” to Islam.
After the cartoon jihad, Gaffney and White might be excused for thinking that Muslims will take offense at just about anything, but the fact is, orthodox Islam cares very little about how exactly anyone faces Mecca for prayer. For most of Islam’s 1400 year history, far flung Muslims had no accurate way to determine the direction to Mecca. Thus it developed as a matter of religious principle that what matters is intent to face Mecca (and God).
So where did Patrick White get the idea that orientation on Mecca must be exact? From a Muslim scholar commissioned by the Park Service to answer just this question. His name is Nasser Rabbat, and he told the Park Service a flat out lie. Why? Rabbat is presumably a stealth jihadist, though he could have also been doing a personal favor for ex-classmate Paul Murdoch, the Los Angeles architect who designed the Crescent of Embrace.
http://www.floppingaces.net/2010/04/15/nuclear-summit-logo-is-an-islamic-shaped-crescent-reader-post/
P.S.: In the above article, Rawls notices other crescents used in major American ways -- including as a logo by the Nuclear Security Summit of 2010.
Its been a while since I have commented at JW, but this one I could not ignore.
It just reminds me of India's history and survival in the face of the Islamic onslaught.
So many temples and monuments destroyed or vandalized, only to have huge Mosques built in their place.
If a Mosque is erected at ground zero, I would personally see it as a symbol of the Islamic conquest of the West, since they first destroyed the original structures (ie, WTC) and replaced it with their own.
Its absolutely tasteless and disgusting.
Repeating Gymgal's post...
http://tinyurl.com/3xfzpzy
Join this group...No to the mosque at WTC , if you're on Facebook.
I'm far away too (not as far as you though!), but for this event in Washington DC(if it happened) I would go. At least I'm on the same continent :)
I will probably be arrested and deported, the way things are going these days.
Pam has started an event on Sept 10th this year for a rally to say no to the mosque, see the SIOA Facebook Page for details. I would REALLY like to go to that, but I will beaching it in paradise (S.Asia) that month.
New York is a melting pot, ok sometimes it's jet fuel and structural steel, but others it's only sputtering firecrackers and propane tanks.
The important detail being overlooked here is Shahzad visited Time Square far more often as a tourist. Time Square is a 'mecca of tourism', Cordoba House will only add to that.
Sure it'll require extra federal and local anti-terror law enforcement, and be tax exempt, and lead to endless sharia compliance law suits, and the odd lone wolf attack??
But come on, can this stuff really shake American religous tolerence. Would you have the big apple at code orange shy away from all those islamic tourist dollars.
The mosque is due to be built only TWO BLOCKS from WTC!
It got unanimously endorsed by 12 member Community Board 1's financial district committee (I have NO idea what that is!)
Chairman Ro Sheffe *I think it will be a wonderful asset to the community*
Money coming from donations from prestigious groups inc. Ford Foundation and Rockefeller Bros.
Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf - says project intended to foster better relations between the West and Muslims.
All from article in nydailynews.com
*better relations between the West and Muslims - NOT muslims and the west. It appears we are still at fault (fuming)
*American tolerance over hatred. In other words you hate not us and you have to prove your tolerance towards us SO BUILD ME MY MOSQUE!
This is architectural jihad. To literally build over sites of religious or extreme cultural sensitivity. To set foot on every site that they can to make it muslim (capital hill prayers?) The aim is to not just degrade but to humiliate and to make it clear to you that you are inferior. To build gigantic mosques all over America so that they tower over and intimidate whole areas is part of this, to punish the infidel, to teach them their place. To get the infidel to actually pay a huge sum of money so they can use it as an indoctrination tool as well must be exquisite, for them. They must think Americans are stupid.
The only way they could humiliate you more (in this area of NY) would be to demand that muslim toilets facing mecca be built on the actual WTC site!!!
That is polite as I can get it! Sorry. I cannot, dare not say what I truely think I am so beyond fury!
This MUST be stopped.
English
Underneath Imam Rauf's expensive pseudo-Western suit and expensive haircut and beard trim is a 7th century scimitar-wielding Mo-maddened soldier-for-allah who has just staked his claim to the enemy's territory.
My personal dream of justice for him would involve tar, feathers, conveyance via pole to the Battery, one-way fare on the SI Ferry, and a greeting party at St. George to assure that he makes a sharp left turn and keeps walking until he runs out of dry land.
I'd have settled for watching Fallaci rip him a new one. Great pity that she is not here to wade into this outrage in her own electrifying way.
During the election protests last year the Iranians took to their rooftops and night to shout defiance. Some of the EDL lads did the same at Dudley last week. What would it take to organize a NYC rooftop protest, I wonder?
Hesperado and George, here's more from the exemplary Alec Rawls, courtesy of poster justamomof4 from February of 2008, commenting on an article by Hugh on mosque building and the Muslim call to prayer: "Fitzgerald: An act of dominance and aggression"
It seemed so apropos, I hope no one minds my reposting the entire longish comment:
The planned memorial for 9/11 Flight 93 which crashed in Shanksville, PA is yet another act of dominance and aggression.
Alec Rawls has done yeomans work investigating this heinous insult.
Very briefly, there are a dozen typical mosque features. All are realized in Paul Murdoch’s design, all on the same epic scale as his half-mile wide mihrab. The planned memorial is a terrorist memorial mosque, and this hijacking is still on track to succeed.
*The Flight 93 memorial is oriented towards Mecca.That makes the crescent a mihrab: the central feature around which every is built.
*the crescent design was discovered to memorialize, not just the 4 hijackers of Flight 93, but also the full complement of 19 9/11 terrorists. (There are two sets of 19 nested crescents in the crescent design.)
*the Park Service found a trio of fraudulent academics to make blatantly dishonest excuses for the Mecca oriented crescent.
*Daniel Griffith, a geospatial information sciences professor at the University of Texas at Dallas, said anything can point toward Mecca, because the earth is round.(Post Gazette, August 18, 2007.)
*Kevin Jaques, a professor of Islamic sharia law at Indiana University, notes the similarity between the Mecca oriented crescent and a traditional mihrab, but assures the Park Service that there is no need for concern, because no one has ever seen a mihrab this BIG before.
*Syrian professor of Islamic architecture named Nasser Rabbat who tells the part service not to worry about the almost exact Mecca orientation of the giant crescent because it cannot serve as a proper mihrab unless it points exactly to Mecca. That is a bald lie. Many traditional mihrabs are off in their Mecca-orientation by 10, 20 or 30 degrees. The most famous mihrab in the world, the mihrab at the Great Mosque in Cordoba Spain, is oriented more than 45° off Mecca.
So who are these guys? Rabbat is described as an independent scholar, *but in fact is an old classmate of Paul Murdoch*, [emphasis mine, GI] both having received masters degrees in architecture from UCLA in 1984. This raises the possibility that Paul Murdoch himself was able to orchestrate the investigation into warnings about his own design.
Kevin Jaques is also a highly suspicious character, having written an article shortly after 9/11 where he insists that the American response to 9/11 should be formulated in accordance with Islamic sharia law. Thus it seems that the Park Service let two blatantly dishonest Muslims whitewash warnings of a radical Islamic plot. Not that the Park Service was duped. They were just as dishonest themselves, claiming that it isn’t possible to check the orientation of the crescent because: “none of the data or imagery used to develop the site plan has been geo-referenced.”
*Upturned crescents are a standard mosque adornment in many Muslim countries.
*Every iota of this original Crescent of Embrace design remains completely intact in the so-called “redesign.” That is why Congressman Tancredo asked the Park Service this autumn to scrap the existing design entirely. Instead of getting rid of the giant crescent as Tancredo demanded back in 2005, architect Paul Murdoch only disguised it with a few surrounding trees.
*Also remaining are those damned 44 glass blocks on the flight path. (There were forty passengers and crew and *four Islamic terrorists* on Flight 93.) [emphasis mine, GI]
*For every Islamic or terrorist memorializing feature of the crescent design, the Park Service has another equally phony excuse. Please read the exposé of the Park Service’s fraudulent investigation
The full significance of Murdoch’s plot takes a whole book to explain. (Given the importance of getting this information out to the public now, a provisional draft of my Crescent of Betrayal book is temporarily available for free download at CrescentOfBetrayal.com. Updates are being posted on my Error Theory blog.)
justamomof4 | February 12, 2008 10:23 PM
The following info was inadvertantly left out from above post:
Rabbat is a professor of Islamic architecture and former classmate of architect Murdoch. Mosque design falls within Rabbat's field of expertise. He knows the traditional crescent shaped mihrab better than anybody and just lies about it, the same way he lies about mihrab orientation having to be exact.
And that bit about not knowing of any militant groups that use the crescent? That would make Rabbat a very rare Syrian, if he has never seen the Hezbollah flag.
At both the Park Service and the Pentagon, Muslim consultants who are engaged in blatant cover up of terror threats are being given the last word by top level administration officials.
There is so much more . . .read it all at Error Theory
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2008/02/fitzgerald-an-act-of-dominance-and-aggression.html
"The project will create a venue for Mainstream Islam." Ah yes, mainstream Islam. It must be those mainstream Muslims that we see conducting all those protest marches against what is being done in their name. What, you haven't seen or heard about any of these protests? You just have to pay closer attention to current events.
The imam paid $4.85 MILLION in CASH for the site.
Where the heck did he get that much money? Just had it stashed somewhere did he, for a rainy day?
This whole thing just stinks, something is very fishy about the process, and the sneakiness.
Donations were made by the Ford Foundation and others.
Read this from Atlas Shrugs.
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/
Hesp,
I think the standard here must be "reasonable-doubt." After touring Rawls' site I believe he introduces enough of that doubt to reject and disqualify the "Crescent of Embrace." I see no legitimate reason why a design without this doubt-factor could not be created and implemented. And I think ANY design should be unambiguously and exclusively dedicated to the crew and passengers of Flight 93, with neither reference nor homage to the muslim attackers (without whom a memorial would not be necessary). If that makes me small-minded, so be it.
Thanks for the excellent research and the link. I still don't know the actual physical status of this thing, so will dig for that next...
Do not see it because it does not exist.
"Time Magazine and other news agencies are reporting that negotiations are underway between Saudi Arabia and the Vatican, about the possibility of opening the first Christian church in the Kingdom.
To date, Islam is the only religion permitted to be worshiped publicly in Saudi Arabia. Some argue that freedom of religion should prevail, and that Muslims should reciprocate the freedom of religion enjoyed in non-Muslim countries. Others hold that Saudi Arabia is the center of Islamic history and culture, and therefore Islam should have special status in the Kingdom."
http://islam.about.com/b/2008/03/20/churches-in-saudi-arabia.htm
Yes, I feel insulted, too. This is another case of Muslims sticking their fingers in the eyes of people they've injured.
Defender of Islam, tell me where the Saudi churches are. Show me on a map, and I might just stop feeling insulted. Also, tell me when the Saudi government repudiated the Pact of 'Umar?
"Imam: Mosque near Ground Zero would prove American religious tolerance"
And monitoring that armory, err, mosque, would demonstrate common sense.
Sometimes, you just have to get sicker before you can get better. The West will just have to recover its former sanity the hard way: when enough of the Muslims it loves to coddle explode and mass-murder enough of us. How many is enough? For those few of us coalmine canaries who are ahead of the learning curve of their own laggard Western culture, the answer is: far too many.
Splendid idea
Building a mosque near Ground Zero equals positioning a Hitler statue near a Holocaust memorial. As I said splendid idea.
The attack on Pearl Harbor in 1941, the "Day of Infamy", in which over 2,000 Americans lost their lives finally sparked the entire country into action against against fascism. The mere thought of permitting the Japanese to build a Shinto shrine over the wreck of the USS Arizona even today seems weirdly absurd.
The attacks of 9/11, killing even more Americans with even less warning, the overwhelming number of which were civillians, has very curiously not sparked a similar unified response. 9/11 was an act of war, "...a war like no other," as was aptly put by George Bush at the time...one of the few things he said then that made any sense. This war is being fought with zoning commissions and planning boards and is being campaigned mosque construction-by-mosque construction, lawsuit-by-lawsuit, investment-by-investment.
If this war is like no other, it is likely because the enemy is making his war with the very money we give him, with enough left over to buy his yachts and trinkets. And just as the airplanes the were flown into the WTC were not conceived of as weapons in a war, so the intensive construction of mosques have not been honestly described for what they are: Blockhouses for an occupying army.
This construction is a slap in the face. It is intended to be. "Turning the other cheek" is a personal choice but it is most certainly not an option for a country. Justice is the only option here. And if justice is to prevail, not only will this mosque not be built, but Islam will be held accountable for the blood around and within its borders.
Here is a picture of Muslims outside what is left of the Burlington Coat Factory:
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c60bf53ef0120a73149ce970b-500wi
And here they are worshipping their vile deity where Infidels once sold such innocent items as jackets and sweaters:
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c60bf53ef0120a73153d1970b-500wi
Here is the loathsome Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf:
The US and the West must acknowledge the harm they have done to Muslims before terrorism can end...
Speaking from his New York mosque, Imam Feisal said the West had to understand the terrorists' point of view.
In a move likely to cause controversy with church leaders, Imam Feisal said it was Christians who started mass attacks on civilians.
"The Islamic method of waging war is not to kill innocent civilians. But it was Christians in World War II who bombed civilians in Dresden and Hiroshima, neither of which were military targets."
Imam Feisal said the bombing in Madrid had made his message more urgent. He said there was an endless supply of angry young Muslim rebels prepared to die for their cause and there was no sign of the attacks ending unless there was a fundamental change in the world.
.....
And that change, of course, must be *on the part of the West*.
More:
Imam Feisal, who argues for a Western style of Islam that promotes democracy and tolerance, said there could be little progress until the US acknowledged backing dictators and the US President gave an "America Culpa" speech to the Muslim world.
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/mosque-at-ground-zero-takbir/
I am not tolerant of murderers, rapist, and liars. That is exactly what true muslims are. All muslims may not be terrorists. But, 99% of terrorists are muslims. Please let Michael Bloomburg know how you feel. I will. Go to the site below.
This is the message I sent to the mayor.
I do not want a Mosque near the WTC site. Would people allow a German Cultural Center by Aushwitz? This is a terrible mistake for our Government to even contemplate this action. This is a calculated move by Muslims. If Muslims want to show how tolerant and peaceful they are, they would be respectful of all the lives that were murdered in the name of Allah just down the block from this site. Do you think the peaceful and tolerant would allow a Christian Church to be built in Mecca?
http://www.nyc.gov/portal/site/nycgov/menuitem.bd08ee7c7c1ffec87c4b36d501c789a0/index.jsp?doc_name=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nyc.gov%2Fhtml%2Fmail%2Fhtml%2Fmayor.html
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I THINK A CHRISTIAN CHURCH SHOULD BE BUILT AT THAT SITE. A CHRISTIAN CHURCH THAT'S NOT SCARED TO SPEAK THE TRUTH ABOUT ISLAM. FRANKLIN GRAHAM WOULD BE THE PERFECT MAN TO GIVE THE FIRST SERMON AT THIS CHURCH. I WOULD DONATE TO THIS CHURCH BEING BUILT.
AS A CHRISTIAN, I HAVE LEFT MY CHURCH BECAUSE THEY REFUSE TO SPEAK ABOUT THE EVIL OF AND THE THREAT OF ISLAM. I HOPE THAT OTHER CHRISTIANS WILL QUESTION THEIR CHURCH LEADERS.(I'M HAVING A HARD TIME FINDING A CHURCH. A CHURCH THAT SPEAKS THE TRUTH.)
JUST THINK OF THE POWER THAT A "JOEL OLSTEEN" COULD HAVE IF HE HAD THE GUTS TO SPEAK THE TRUTH ABOUT ISLAM. I'M SENDING MY OFFERING MEANT FOR MY OLD CHURCH TO FRANKLIN GRAHAM.
$4.85 million? Is that all? In New York?
Muslims always have access to cash. I am sure even the lowliest, welfare-recipient Muslim refugee would be able to come up with $5 million if he had a project pleasing to, oh,say, Saudi Arabia.
Many interesting and elucidating posts on this thread and they are here, in the final analysis, for one reason alone and it is this: Islam is an evil system of religious thought (no other major religion is) which purports to be a beneficial faith. Needed above all is recognition that Islam, all of Islam, is wicked and that Muslims are at best confused and at worst malevolent. This happens and mankind will know what to do. This doesn't happen and the lethal and tragic games will continue, courtesy of the world's worst religion of all time. My prediction is that mankind will eventually understand how to proceed, but only after it exhausts every other possibility, the needless exploration of which will produce uncountable numbers of useless deaths and broken lives.
So sick of Islam. Why isn't everyone by now? Islam, arguably, is the greatest example in history of man's capacity to err grievously. This is its real and lasting legacy, unless it wins out and, if that happens, mendacity will become a false truth and real truth will become a hunted fugitive. Holy Hell, how could mankind let such a putrid assessment of the human condition and the cosmos be even somewhat close to final victory? Well, perhaps life is an idiot after all, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. Hope not. Think not. But...
Good God, Graven! (aliteration not intended)
I had no idea the Flight 93 Memorial had this kind of islamic "smell" all over it. Suspicious characters, ill-concealed motives, fraudulent academics, outright lies. Sounds like a CAIR convention! Not sure yet if it's too late to derail that national disgrace, but I suspect it is. Shameful.
I clicked over to Pamela's site via Gymgal's link (thanks, Gymgal!). It seems our pal Feisal has some 'splainin' to do about statements he made a few years back. Mr. Spencer already had him sniffed-out, naturally! Just another muslim hegemonist pig trying to hide in a suit!
Good news, Pamela's on the case & she's all over it. Manhattan is a looooong ways from here. But so is 9/10...and I'd surely be proud to be there...
I feel like puking.
Would they allow a mosque in the neighborhood of the Beslan School massacre?
Would they allow a mosque across from the field where flight 93 was brought down by the courageous passengers?
Would they allow a mosque facing the side of the Pentagon that was hit by mass-murdering jihadists?
Would they allow a mosque anywhere that Islamic terrorists struck a massive blow against human liberty and decency in the West?
No way this will go through.
NO MOSQUE!
The Brits' righteous EDL resistence to the Dudley mosque is a fine example of how to stop this suicidal PC lunacy.
http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2010/05/uk-dudley-mosque-plan-scrapped.html
"And monitoring that armory, err, mosque, would demonstrate common sense."
Excellent idea, What?! ...yeah whatever happened to common sense? Must've gotten gobbled up by pc/mc mindless morons ...
I would love for there to be a 13 story mosque built in Lower Manhattan, it'll be great for the economy and even more wonderful when the place is condemned and closed before the first prayer is uttered in it.
I'm sure I wouldn't be the only person making sure this never comes to fruition, 'by whatever means necessary'.
@gravenimage
"And that bit about not knowing of any militant groups that use the crescent? That would make Rabbat a very rare Syrian, if he has never seen the Hezbollah flag."
Where is the crescent on the Hezbollah flag?
http://tinyurl.com/27esmy6
What! It's a joke, yes? I am in utter disbelief! How could this happen? What is the thinking here? Certainly the citizens of NYC, and of America, will rise up to give a resounding NO this plan. If that mosque goes up, the United States will be well on its way to going down. The world as we know it is nearing an end, and Islam will reign supreme starting with Ground Zero.
I think I'm going to puke.
A mosque plus Ground Zero still adds up to zero.
Dumbledore's Army wrote:
I am stuck here in Australia, thousands of miles away, so I can't do a damn thing except feel absolute fury at the sheer, calculated sadism and spiritual blasphemy involved in this Muslim act of what I can only call urinating on the graves of murdered people - of people who were deliberately murdered *by Muslims*, murdered *in obedience to the texts and tenets of Islam*.
...................
Dumbledore's Army, the loathsome Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf seems to visit Australia fairly frequently: he was in Sydney and Perth in 2004:
"West must act to end jihad"
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/03/21/1079789939987.html
And he was in Adelaide in 2005:
"What does it take to change the relationship between the West and the Muslim World?"
A public lecture with Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf
http://www.unisa.edu.au/hawkecentre/events/2005events/Imam_transcript.asp
More importantly, he is—according to Atlas Shrugs—in Sydney for a conference *right now*, and will be there for the next two weeks. Moreover, he was invited there by Australian Premier Bob Carr.
Now, I know you don't live in Sydney, but perhaps a few sharply-worded letters to Australian politicians from a knowledgeable Australian citizen would enlighten some fellow Aussies abut this ugly figure and his plans for the West.
Perhaps the readers of the Sydney Morning Herald would like to know what sort of monstrous stealth-Jihadist they are hosting, as well.
"New York-based Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, who impressed Mr Carr at an international conference last year, arrives in Sydney today for two weeks of meetings and public talks."
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/mosque-at-ground-zero-takbir/
This will be the cruelest insult to the American souls who perished on 9/11-to have the instrument of their destruction hover over their hallowed grounds.
My two cents, as an Australian.
Re. the WTC site.
It was the site of a mass murder; it's full of ghosts; it's a de facto graveyard. Turning it back into a commercial site doesn't work for me.
Whatever is built where the two towers once stood, should be *taller* than the towers once were, and unambiguously a symbol of Western civilisation.
Frankly, a huuuge cathedral with a spire topped by a cross would be the best way to flip the bird to the Muslim world. Invite Christians all over the world to contribute.
In addition: take the 'Burlington Coat Factory' site that the Muslims want for this obscene mosque, and give it *to the Jews of New York City*, with a brief to build a beautiful big synagogue.
Dedicate both the cathedral and the synagogue to those who were murdered on September 11.
Include in the cathedral a chapel dedicated specifically to the firefighters and the police.
Secondly: AS for the place where flight 93 came down: scrap that obscene 'crescent of embrace' design.
NO crescents. NOTHING reminiscent of Islam in any way, shape or form.
When a plane flies overhead it makes a shadow on the ground in the shape, roughly speaking, of a cross.
Lay out on the ground where the plane fell, but two or three times larger than the size of the plane, a giant cross shape.
Then plant two avenues of trees, one longer, one shorter, to outline that cross. Choose really long-lived trees that will grow tall and spread wide and shady; one tree for each non-Muslim who died there, whether killed personally by the jihadis or killed by the crash, with a stone set at the base of each tree, carved with the name, seat number, and birth and death dates of the person the tree represents, plus either a text or a symbol chosen by the person's family. (This way, although the overarching symbolism of the memorial would be 'Christian', families of those non-Muslim passengers who were not Christian, would be free to identify their loved one by their specific tradition, for example, a Star of David for a Jewish passenger, a lotus flower for a Hindu).
The names of the murderers would NOT appear anywhere in the memorial: let their names be entirely erased.
Set in the paving along the long axis, these words from the Gospel of John: "Greater love hath no man than this, than that he lay down his life for his friends".
Set in the paving of the shorter axis (that is, the 'arms' of the cross, the wings of the plane or of the eagle), these words from Isaiah (which are also part of a very popular modern hymn): "I will bear you up on eagle's wings".
Where the two avenues cross each other, at the heart of the cross, place a pool and an eternal flame.
There is one other scripture text that I think could be incorporated somewhere, perhaps around the rim of the pool - a line from the Lord's Prayer - "Deliver us from evil".
Alternatively, instead of using trees plus 'headstones', one could reach down deep into European prehistory, and use stones alone: make the memorial cross with two avenues of standing stones, each stone also functioning as a headstone for one of the non-Muslim passengers.
It might be interesting to lay it out in such a way that the morning sun, on the anniversary of the crash, will shine straight down the avenue from the 'top' of the cross to the bottom.
Those are my ideas.
What do others think?
"For the Christians among us, here's what Our Lord had to say about the power of two, or three: "Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth, shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say unto you, *That if two of you* {my emphasis - dda} shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them".
Thanks for posting that, dda! ...and I will gladly join you in prayer over this issue. So much to pray about :)
"The world as we know it is nearing an end, and Islam will reign supreme starting with Ground Zero."
Smoothlee is the smartest JM poster, he has seen the future. It is mind boggling why the followers of the Abrahamic faiths are fighting. Western civilization is a misnomer - it is a actually islamo-judaic-christo civilization - with the foundation being Islamic.
The real security threat is from non-book people - especially from India who descend on our universities, gain knowledge and go back to use that knowledge. And they also steal IT and medical jobs.
The mosque will prove to Muslims that Americans do not equate Islam and terrorism.
zinda dilie : The real security threat is from non-book people - especially from India who descend on our universities, gain knowledge and go back to use that knowledge. And they also steal IT and medical jobs.
You make a great point! They come here, contribute to society, fit in just fine (I have a very good friend who is Sikh) and generally behave very well, including NOT KILLING PEOPLE LIKE MOSLEMS DO.
Weak trollage, zinda dilie & smoothlee, but thanks for playing. You can take a cuddly bear from the bottom shelf.
Andy wrote:
Where is the crescent on the Hezbollah flag?
.................
Near the lower right-hand corner. Of all the things I have cited here, this is the only thing you think important to comment on?
Thank you for that interesting information.
In fact, Bob Carr isn't NSW Premier any more: he's the *former* premier of NSW (he left office five years ago).
The current Premier of NSW is Kristina Keneally.
America does not need to show/prove religious tolerance. America is a place of religious tolerance granted to muslims already. Muslims enjoy the same privileges as all Americans they worship freely.
After 911 no muslim places of worship, homes, buisnesss were burned/destroyed. Muslim women and young girls were not raped. Muslim men, women, and children were not murdered.
Muslims need to make amends for (and this is a short list):
1) The slaughter/murder of million of innocent men, women, and children who's only crime was to be non-muslim.
2) The rape of million of young women, girls, and women in general since the beginning of this intolerant religion.
3) The destruction of non-muslim's homes, buisnesses, places of worship; all because they believed differently and wanted to continue to do so.
4) The warmongoring by mohammed and his followers since Islam began.
5) The regulating of non-muslim's to a 2nd, 3rd, 4th class citizenship.
Here's a few things muslims can do:
1) Let them stand and protest the murder, rape, destruction of innocent non-muslims going on now througout the world. Something that goes on daily were muslim's are a majority.
2) Let muslim's cry out to build and re-build churches, places of worship for non- muslim's;ones that have been destroyed by them.
3) Begin the building of non-muslim places of worship in Saudi Arabia. To show they are tolerant to other religions.
4) Return the Sophia Hagia to Christians
5) Let muslim's cry out for the return of woman they have abducted and forced into Islam.
As for freedom loving people everywhere we need to protest this injustice this intolerant act by muslim's here. Who would mock the the very land they now live, worship (freely in),and prosper in.
We need to stand and say NO! Not now or ever! Not because of our intolerance,but because of their's.
Aprilyn
Oh man you can let this happen. It is pure mockery. It is degrading and disrepsecting the american people, a sign of conquest.
I mean you *can't" let it happen...
Gorkhali
delighted to see you again (I always enjoyed your postings). Hope all is well.
Dumbledore's Army wrote:
In fact, Bob Carr isn't NSW Premier any more: he's the *former* premier of NSW (he left office five years ago).
...................
Oops—sorry about that, DDA—I should have checked to see if my information was current.
Still—it does look as if Imam Rauf is in Australia right now–and I doubt many Aussies know anything about what this loathsome "guest" stands for, and the threat he represents to the West.
There was a church at ground zero the south tower thatwas hit by american flight 11 fell on top of it.
A picture and article about this:
http://www.goarch.org/special/september11/stnicholas/
Here is another site about the Church:
http://www.stnicholasnyc.com/
Here is a quote I saw over at Atlas Shrugs.
Well, WHEN WILL NYC allow the Greek Orthodox Church to re-build St. Nicholas Orthodox Church which was destroyed when one of WTC towers fell on top of it????
I have read that NYC wants the Greeks to build a meditation CHAPEL for ALL faiths on that sacred ground where human remains fell onto the church and its parking lot after the planes flew into the WTC.
Also the relics of ST.Nicholas which were in the altar were never found although a Cross awas found in the debris.
HOW COME THE ORTHODOX CHURCH CANNOT RE-BUILD THEIR OWN CHURCH??? They own the land and should make this another GREEK Church...
Those disgusting Turks took Hagia Sophia and NOW the present day islamic murdering terrorists are in effect taking another GREEK ORTHODOX CHRISTIAN CHURCH!
Dumbledoresarmy,
I'm not so sure I'm with you on the idea of never building there again because of what happened, partly because it allows the terrorists to greatly encourage us -- through our own sense of dignity and decency -- to designate a virtual graveyard in the heart of the financial disctrict of NYC -- something we would never do had 9/11 not occurred.
I had an argument once with my brother in law about what should be done with the WTC site. I said the two towers ought to go back up ASAP exactly as they were before, only taller; otherwise it signals that we've been beaten and that it's okay to change the skyline of Manhattan for us -- we'll leave it the way they remake it. He argued that no one would ever want to go into the towers let alone work in them, and that rebuilding there would be a colossal waste. Instead, he said just make it a huge memorial, much as you've suggested.
If a large apartment building catches fire and many hundreds die as it burns to the ground, should that site really be rebuilt upon? This goes to the "hallowed ground" argument, the ghosts, the cemetery.
If, God forbid, terrorists bio attack a major city and a million people die, should the city -- now hallowed ground -- be left abandoned? I'm not trying to make a joke, I am asking: What are we willing to qualify as hallowed ground and what not, and for what reasons do we, or don't we?
The WTC site is in the financial district of NYC, and that area of the city was redeveloped in the 1960's for exactly the purpose of being a financial district.
Terrorists attacked our icons of finance (as they saw them), and now we are reluctant to rebuild there again for the purposes of finance because so many people were murdered.
Do we chalk two up for the terrorists? Not only did they destroy the WTC's, now we are less than willing to rebuild there for the original purpose of the buildings and the area.
I'm all for a beautiful memorial on the site, but I'm not so sure that it should forever be considered hallowed ground, and therefore treated with the same reverence as a cemetery.
IMO, that doesn't properly honor those murdererd, when so many of them were so defiant in the face of death.
I think they would want us to fight back and not give in to what TERRORISTS decide will be on that site...or what will not be.
Just my two cents, as an American who experienced 9/11 in Washington, DC.
"If that mosque goes up, the United States will be well on its way to going down. The world as we know it is nearing an end, and Islam will reign supreme starting with Ground Zero."
I agree with you. The symbolism would be enormous: "Though we slaughtered 3,000 of you Infidels on 9/11, you still permit us, only 9 years later, to begin building a mosque on the site we destroyed. This is just the beginning. America will be Islamic in a century."
"Western civilization is a misnomer - it is a actually islamo-judaic-christo civilization - with the foundation being Islamic."
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! It never ceases to amaze me the capacity for self-delusion possessed by you Mohammedans.
I suppose it's because you never invented anything, you're just parasites on everyone else, and feel so inferior. Which you are.
Western civilization is JUDEO-CHRISTIAN. Your pagan moon deity and Warlord have NOTHING to do with it. Thank God Jesus.
I think an economic and tourist boycott of New York state is in order. Furthermore, I think it is appropriate to let the state of New York know why you will not visit the state or buy any products made in New York.
I hope that every New York resident will make a practice of walking their dogs (or pet pigs) between that mosque and mecca during prayer time. Tie bells on their collars, too. Perhaps you can get female friends or relatives to do the animal walking.
"smoothlee" is not a troll.
The troll is "zinda dilie." And what a despicable, ugly, and delusional troll it is.
Hesperado, outstanding piece of research on the design of the Crescent of Embrace. Have you considered sending it on to Michelle Malkin?
"Western civilization is a misnomer - it is a actually islamo-judaic-christo civilization - with the foundation being Islamic."
An attempt to rewrite history? ...last I checked islam is LAST in line. Facts don't matter to muslims, only fiction.
Oh, really? Show it to me. Even if this were true, so what?
The distinction is that Christians didn't fly planes into a building there and kill thousands of people.
Nor does Christianity teach or condone such violence toward unbelievers.
Does that make any sense to you? I'll be awaiting a response addressing this particular issue. Something tells me I'll be waiting a long, long time.
Oh, and learn how to write the English language properly while you're at it. Why is it these apologists for Islam always write so atrociously?
Uh, lilred, there is no fare on the SI ferry. It's free.
Mo : Nor does Christianity teach or condone such violence toward unbelievers.
Deuteronomy.
12.10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die, because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
17.2 If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman who hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God in transgressing His covenant,
17.3 and hath gone and served other gods and worshiped them, either the sun or moon or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded,
17.4 and it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it and inquired diligently, and behold, it be true and the thing certain that such abomination is wrought in Israel,
17.5 then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman who has committed that wicked thing unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones till they die.
The good thing for society is most christians don't go by the book as much as moslems these days.
Please give DoI a break, English clearly isn't his first language.
Dumbledores,
That's what I'm talking about; a fitting monument, dedicated to the victims and the heroes--without a hint of recognition for the perpetrators! No mixed-messages, no ambiguities, not the slightest chance for misunderstanding its purpose. Flight 93 was a powerful drama of good versus evil. And while it was a tragedy it was also a victory. Your concepts would convey that message with reverence and respect. And it would affirm our Judeo-Christian heritage without apology. There's no excuse for anything less.
WRT the 9/11 Mosque: That's what it should be called, the 9/11 Mosque. But only as it exists as a concept of this creep Rauf and his dhimmi running-dogs. As the astute posters here have agreed, this would be a dirty muslim-stained middle finger in our faces and a symbol of subjugation, not tolerance. If Rauf weren't a muslim he'd be ashamed. But he IS a muslim and he can take his mosque and go fiqh himself!
G
Please let Michael Bloomburg know how you feel. I will. Go to the site below.
This is the message I sent to the mayor.
I do not want a Mosque near the WTC site. Would people allow a German Cultural Center by Aushwitz? This is a terrible mistake for our Government to even contemplate this action. This is a calculated move by Muslims. If Muslims want to show how tolerant and peaceful they are, they would be respectful of all the lives that were murdered in the name of Allah just down the block from this site. Do you think the peaceful and tolerant would allow a Christian Church to be built in Mecca?
http://www.nyc.gov/portal/site/nycgov/menuitem.bd08ee7c7c1ffec87c4b36d501c789a0/index.jsp?doc_name=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nyc.gov%2Fhtml%2Fmail%2Fhtml%2Fmayor.html
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I THINK A CHRISTIAN CHURCH SHOULD BE BUILT AT THAT SITE. A CHRISTIAN CHURCH THAT'S NOT SCARED TO SPEAK THE TRUTH ABOUT ISLAM. FRANKLIN GRAHAM WOULD BE THE PERFECT MAN TO GIVE THE FIRST SERMON AT THIS CHURCH. I WOULD DONATE TO THIS CHURCH BEING BUILT.
AS A CHRISTIAN, I HAVE LEFT MY CHURCH BECAUSE THEY REFUSE TO SPEAK ABOUT THE EVIL OF AND THE THREAT OF ISLAM. I HOPE THAT OTHER CHRISTIANS WILL QUESTION THEIR CHURCH LEADERS.(I'M HAVING A HARD TIME FINDING A CHURCH. A CHURCH THAT SPEAKS THE TRUTH.)
JUST THINK OF THE POWER THAT A "JOEL OLSTEEN" COULD HAVE IF HE HAD THE GUTS TO SPEAK THE TRUTH ABOUT ISLAM. I'M SENDING MY OFFERING MEANT FOR MY OLD CHURCH TO FRANKLIN GRAHAM.
Jim, you're killin' me here! I'm on the edge of my chair! So, did you finally puke?? LOL!Thank you for the comedy relief!
I agree that there should be no mosque in Lower Manhattan.
On the Flight 93 thing, uhhhhhh, the memorial mimics the shape of the hole that the wings of the plane made when they disintegrated. The orientation reflects that of the jet when it went down.
The facts, ma'm, just the facts.
http://www.stnicholasnyc.com/?cat=1
Bryan please see these pictures.
Sir
have you ever actually read the book of Acts?
Because in the book of Acts it is stated quite clearly that the first followers of Jesus, who were Jews, made the decision that they *would not require* Gentile followers of Jesus to observe every detail of the civil, criminal and ceremonial legal code of ancient Israel.
That is why, in case you didn't know it, Christians - unlike Jews - do not ritually circumcise their boy babies (some circumcise for what they think of as health reasons, some don't, but it's NOT a religious requirement), and why Christians feel perfectly free to eat non-kosher food. It is also why Christians are not, in point of fact, required to execute apostates. You can search the gospels and the Letters from end to end and you *will* not find a command to execute those who leave the faith.
You should, however, in order to get a sense of what this passage in Deuteronomy is about, reflect that a good few of the 'other gods' that were worshipped in lands immediately surrounding Israel, at the time when the Deuteronomy text was written, indulged in cult practices such as ritual prostitution and human sacrifice. And allow yourself to remember what was done in the cults of Cybele, or of Dionysus...what the maenads do, in Euripides 'Bacchae'.
How would *you* react to the news that a member of your family had just embraced the oldtime Aztec religion and had taken part in, carried out or approvingly witnessed, the removal of the heart from a live human victim? And that he or she thought that the wholesale adoption of that bloodthirsty religion would be an excellent idea for you and the rest of the family?
I suspect the situation the Deuteronomy writers had in mind, was something similar.
However: the other point to be made is that the Jews themselves seem to have decided that that Deuteronomy text is abrogated in some way.
Because if you want to argue it isn't, and that it is still fully in effect, you must provide details of at least ten cases, from the past century, in which practising Jews have executed a member of their families because said family member has abandoned Judaism for Christianity or for an eastern religion such as Buddhism or Taoism, or for declared atheism.
PLease see this site, friend.
http://www.stnicholasnyc.com/?cat=1
@gravenimage
"Near the lower right-hand corner.
Of all the things I have cited here, this is the only thing you think important to comment on?"
I read all your posts and even save some.
If there is something I have not read before I will check it.
I did so with your comment about the flag...
I read that the logo is the word hizbu-llāh in stylised Kufic.
There is no crescent.
What looks like a crecent is part of the writing.
And no, it is not important.
Just thought I had missed something.
I just came back from cruising over to Huffington Post to see what excuses the liberal children over there might be making for this. HuffPo isn't even carrying the story. Being curious about who else isn't carrying the story, I checked around. CBS News isn't (although it did have a story "Faisal Shahzad's Motive Shrouded in Mystery"). NBC News? Same. Fox? Surprisingly, no. I then tried a Google search using "mosque ground zero" to see if anyone was carrying the story. It only reports the Christian Broadcasting Network among the major channels carrying the story. Finally, I did a Bing search using "mosque ground zero" and got a few hits. Too many to list, but except for CNN they all seemed to be Conservative news outlets. Liberals obviously don't see what the problem is, which of course is part of what the problem is.
"An attempt to rewrite history? ...last I checked islam is LAST in line. Facts don't matter to muslims, only fiction."
Oh yeah! I put Scientology before Islam. It's total idiocy and lies, but at least it doesn't kill people. Ergo, Scientology is superior to Islam. False prophet L Ron Hubbard is superior to false prophet Warlord Mo.
The Scientology episode was on "South Park" tonight. Got a bunch of good laughs in! Which I needed after learning about this "mosque at Ground Zero" LUNACY. INSANITY. DEMENTIA. Catch my drift?
This supposed "committee?" - They should all be put in straight jackets and removed from our society to the nearest mental institution. Forever.
I believe this applies to today's "PC-about-Islam" world:
"Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." - Thomas Mann
The Greeks, whose St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church was destroyed when the South Tower ( Tower 2) fell on top of it want to re-BUILD their Church with a dome , smaller, but like Hagia Sophia.
THe city throws road block after road block their way...BUT ALLOWS A NEW MOSQUE to be built 2 blocks from ground zero.
THE DESCRIMINATION AGAINST THE CHRISTIANS IS DISGUSTING.
ONE OF THE MEMBERS OF THE CONGRGATION LOST HER BROTHER ON 9-11. HE WORKED FOR CANTOR FITZGERALD.
First, these were laws given to the JEWISH people. There is nothing like this in the New Testament. Zero. Zilch.
Second, there were many laws given to the Jewish people at a particular time, for a particular purpose. Since it's impossible to do an entire study of the OT here in these small comment boxes (and since JW is not the place for such a discussion anyway) the short answer is this was during the creation of and the preservation of the Jewish people. This, in turn, was in preparation for the coming of Christ.
Nowhere are we commanded to do these things today - not for Christians or even for Jews!
***
Please stop spewing forth your ignorance about something you clearly know nothing about, thereby misleading others. It's annoying and insulting.
Thank you.
DDA : I suspect the situation the Deuteronomy writers had in mind, was something similar.
Suspect or know for a fact?
DDA : ..Jews themselves seem to have decided that that Deuteronomy text is abrogated in some way.
Lots of 'supposition', 'seem' and other 'ethereal wordsmiting'. Not very fact-based, is it? More your opinion.
DDA : ...you must provide details of at least ten cases..
Must I? Really? By who's order?
Kim ....I put Scientology before Islam. It's total idiocy and lies, but at least it doesn't kill people. Ergo, Scientology is superior to Islam.
Then it's lucky for us we're not using the 'Kim' scale of sane religions. Scientology kills. A brief google search will list some of the dead people that Scientology were unable to cover up.
sewsalot : You are an idiot for such a remark.
Which one, I make so many?
sewsalot : EAT PORK, you dog!
I'm a vegetarian and more of a cat person, although dogs are fun.
Wow! It's been a busy evening, I hope my washing is done soon.
This is the website, JW, USA. The name's Friday. I post here. I carry a keyboard.
My partner and I were working the late-shift on JW when a post came in. Another one with facts that are just opinions. Yeah, they all have facts. Knowing the difference is our job. That's why we're here. Good day, ma'am.
Mo, are you saying that the OT isn't the bible?
I'm really confused and you clearly know far more than I do.
I am not sure whether you are deliberately being insulting and/or sarcastic, or whether you sincerely are that obtuse.
The Bible is divided into two sections, the Old Testament and the New Testament. It is also not just one book as we think of books, but is made up of 66 separate books. (Or a few more, if you're looking at the Catholic Bible. But that's not necessary for this discussion.)
The Bible - both OT & NT - contains different types of literature within it: History, prophecy, various laws, the poetry (actually songs) of the Psalms, the wisdom literature of Proverbs, the life of Jesus, the history of the early church, letters to the churches, etc.
The passages listed were given to the Jewish people at that time, for the purposes which both I and Dumbledors Army have explained. We took the time to do so because most people don't know these things, and can't really be expected to know them if they don't follow the religion.
Since we took that time, it seems fair to ask you to look up the matter for yourself to see if we are telling the truth. Your quick (and rather snarky) answer here demonstrate that you don't have the desire to do that.
If you choose to ignore what we have said and still keep making such a comparison, then I have nothing further to say to you.
This is a site about Islam. It is not a site to make and further false comparisons of Islam to either Judaism or Christianity. As has already been said several times, neither teach the things that Islam does. Nor are any of its followers doing such things or commanded to do them.
The Twin Towers should be rebuilt. That would be the best memorial to the victims of 9-11.
Rudy Giuliani would never have allowed this property to be sold to Muslims, never mind them building a mosque on the site.
There is also the question of waqf. A mosque there would mean in perpetuity to Muslims, and the site would not ever be available for any other use.
While we debate and fight amongst ourselves we are losing ground.
Our leaders are in bed with the very enemy that has vowed to destroy us. We elected a muslim President, who is destroying this nation. The news we read and watch is filled with half truths and lies. Our freedoms are being lost by the day and sometimes by the minute.
We need to do something besides blog! Otherwise the Mosque will go up.
Thomas Jefferson said every generation needs a new revolution! Our founding fathers are rolling over in their graves by our lack of momentum! They risked everything and shed their blood to bring this nation into reality.
Talk is cheap, especially if it's all anyone does.
All it takes for evil to florish is for good men and women to do nothing. We need to do something, we need to make our voice heard.
Our fore father's didn't die so we could hope to talk it to dead.
Islam is the most destructive force facing a free world today. Islam destroyes everything it touches; and if all we do is talk, that's nothing and Islam will destroy us.
To "Defender of Islam" if there is a place on this earth where a non-muslim place of worship cannot be built - including Mecca or Medina, then no Mosques should be allowed anywhere outside of muslim countries! As for Saudi Arabia, there are no non-muslim places of worship! Those who live there that are non-muslim cannot bring their Bibles or religious books; no item of any non-muslim religion is allowed there! Non-muslims who attempt to even privately practice their religion are arested and if lucky deported
I do not hate muslims they are a sick, sad, lied to people;they have followed the teachings of a man who was a murder, rapist, thief, pedophille, warmongoner,and demon possessed.
And people if we don't stand now our children and theirs will live under this abomanation that calls itself a religion.
Aprilyn
Oh, suddenly you're a Bible expert?
[vomit]
Wait a minute, QE, you don't believe in God ...
Yet you quote from His book?
[rolls eyes]
"I am not sure whether you are deliberately being insulting and/or sarcastic, or whether you sincerely are that obtuse."
Hi, Mo ...I can help you with that answer. It's deliberate. QE actually gets off on insulting people and playing inane semantic games.
Ah. Well, I guess I have made a fool of myself. Thanks for the heads up.
I was going to say it was a waste of time, but at least the information is there for others to see if they have a sincere desire to do so. I hate to see falsehoods go unchallenged, which is why I said what I did.
Thanks again.
Wow!!! A thread w/ 174 posts - I assumed that it was a troll infested thread, and turned out not to be!!!
Hesperado
Your post @ 1:14 was excellent. I had bookmarked Rawl's website a while back and followed it. While he threw up enough co-incidences b/w the architectural layout of this, vs the Islamic symbolism, to convince me - as he put it, it's not like after enough attempts, a monkey w/ a pen is going to write Shakespeare - there was still the plausibility of the co-incidence. As Allahpundit in Hotair put it, when you have to use a protractor, you're probably seeing too much into it.
But your investigation into Murdoch & Erickson, and the work he has done on the Islamic University of Madinah (is this the same as Medina, as in Mecca & Medina?) really blew out a lot of the credibility of any doubts people might have as to whether this was a co-incidence. After all, if Murdoch has been working on Islamic projects before, or even w/ others in his firm who have, it's less believable that he was oblivious about so many co-incidences when he put together his project.
As for the victims here, I believe that only Tom Barnett Sr opposed this memorial, but none of the others were behind him. I suppose if the relatives of the dead in the other 2 planes, as well as those 2 buildings, were put together, there could be a lot more.
But one thing worth noting - in the Flight 93 hijacking, 40 people were killed, and there were no Muslims in the passenger list: the only Muslims there were the 4 hijackers of that plane. Yet this plan to make that Crescent of Embrace has gone ahead, Islamic symbolism & all.
Now, for the WTC, it'll be more difficult to make that claim - there were probably Muslims other than those hijackers in the passenger list, and there were probably Muslims in those towers. If the Flight 93 memorial couldn't be made devoid of Islamic symbolism, how does one then expect that there would be support to ban a mosque anywhere near? After all, this Imam, or any other supporters, can claim that this mosque is a memorial to the Muslims other than the hijackers killed, and if the Flight 93 memorial can be Islamic, why not this? I'm not saying that I support this - I'm saying that it's a weaker argument, given what's happened w/ the Crescent of Embrace.
I recall there was even a case of the Empire State Building going green during an occasion when it honored Ramadan. From what I recall, there was no hue & cry then. Yet, that too was a major target for Muslims following 9/11 - that, the Sears Tower, the Golden Gate Bridge, etc.
Oh, you aren't the one looking foolish, believe me. QE is a total game player, and he enjoys baiting people -- I should know. And you're right not to let falsehoods go unchallenged, but that's what he does. I've seen him do it over, and over, and over again ...
Hmm, can you say dysfunctional? lol ...
Oh, and be careful, because he isn't shy about posting falsehoods about other posters either.
He is not a team player. Sadly.
Moron, that church was there way before the WTC was ever built.
Fail.
Dum da Dum Dum...
Islam is a political system that has no place here in the USA.
Holy Shi'Ite!!! This is so wrong.
I think America has gone well beyond the definition of tolerance in its handling of Islam. The vast majority of the well intentioned American public continues to go out of its way to make excuses for Islam and refuses to accept jihad as anything other than an aberration in an otherwise peaceful religion.
For people who read and can think for themselves, the link between Islam and violence against no-Muslims is easily explained. In reality the racism and prejudice of Islam against Christians, Jews, Buddhists, etc. is institutionalized within the religion itself.
Moderates will speak out against the violence of Jihad but never denounce or reject Mohammed's racism against non-Muslims.
The extremists advance the political will of Sharia through fear and the moderates enjoy enhanced political power through the violence they reject.
Building a mosque on or near ground zero is the equivalent of the jihadists marking the territory of those they feel they have conquered. It will not be an homage to tolerance but instead a monument to their followers to the evil act perpetrated on 911.
American media and politicians were actually making excuses for that miserable scumbag who murdered our soldiers at Ft. Hood. Even though he was yelling Allah Akbar as he killed our men and women, our "intolerant" media, politicians and the general public were making excuses for his behavior and looking for any reason beyond his religious motivation despite all evidence to the contrary.
After he killed our troops there was actual lamentation about how his murders would affect diversity in the military instead of shutting up and paying proper respect for the fallen.
They don't want tolerance, they want submission. Shame on anyone who gives it too them.
Personally I think that American religious tolerance was well proved after 9/11 by the striking absence of an"Islamophobic" backlash( for the most part)- the same thing that happened in the UK after 7/7. If theis imam wants to build a mosque let him do so somewhere else in New York-anywhere but 9/11. This is as tasteless as unveiling a bust of Karl Marx at a Gulag camp!
Terry
Q_E!, where did you get the impulse to knock down people who wouldn't harm you?
Do Christians in this forum or elsewhere emit an odor so disgusting that you cannot keep yourself from beating them, people who would be honored to be your ally and friend?
Is your ideology so intolerant that you'd rather lose friends who're willing to stand by you in the face of the Islamic threat, and who, when the time comes, would be willing to lay their life for you in imitation of their Lord and Master?
And regarding that passage, I'm sure you got its exegesis from the usual atheistic sources. But have you questioned your sources? Have you proven them to be reliable exegetes or are you just parroting the same old dumb things they say?
Question them!
Great post IDViking,
"I think America has gone well beyond the definition of tolerance in its handling of Islam."
"They don't want tolerance, they want submission."
Spot on!!!
"Moderates will speak out against the violence of Jihad but never denounce or reject Mohammed's racism against non-Muslims.
The extremists advance the political will of Sharia through fear and the moderates enjoy enhanced political power through the violence they reject."
Yes, I think they play "Good cop, Bad cop"!
People, pay no attention to the arrogant, insulting, bullying, ridiculous, abusing troll up above. A very small mind, obviously. And, a verbal abuser.
Yes, Mo - It deliberately insults/attacks other JW'ers. It gets off on it. It has an explosive rage disorder. Advice: Steer clear of It.
Exactly, Champ.
Right on. Who gets that "impulse?" Bullies get that impulse.
"We elected a Muslim President, who is destroying this nation."
Yep. No doubt about it, on both counts.
How about muslims stop committing acts of violence against non-muslims to prove THEIR tolerance?
Do Christians in this forum or elsewhere emit an odor so disgusting that you cannot keep yourself from beating them, people who would be honored to be your ally and friend?
I wouldn’t harm him, but I would certainly be not honoured to be a friend of that fool.
Please, don’t misunderstand me. I have very close atheist, or agnostic friends. But their convictions result from an intellectual effort and rigour necessary for understanding and assimilating thoughts of Hume, Paine, Nietzsche, Russell….
But that questioneverything (gosh! what a pompous, snotty self-promoting moniker) parrot is a intellectual adolescent, a primitive village atheist yapping his crude slogans an intelligent atheist would not touch with a ten foot pole.
You advise him to “Question them”. I’d say to him “question your brainpower first”. At least there would be a chance he won’t keep on making an ass of himself.
Otherwise, there is a plenty of websites dedicated to atheism/theism debate, where he could show his erudition. If he doesn’t go there, but insists on littering JW with his unrelated to the purpose and aspirations of the site gibberish he should be treated as a troll - ignored, or banned.
That is such an excellent comment! Kudos to you!
NO MOSQUE!!!!
RE-BUILD ST.NICHOLAS CHURCH NOW!!!
@ http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2010/May/Large-Mosque-Going-Up-Near-Ground-Zero/
"We want to create a platform by which the voices of the mainstream and silent majority of Muslims will be amplified. A center of this scale and magnitude will do that," ASMA [American Society for Muslim Advancement] executive director Daisy Khan said.
###
AMPLIFIED? As they muzzle us? Despicable, indeed.
I mentioned this article to my 12 year old son and he took on a look of disgust and shook his head in disbelief...
I was so angry because those Twin Towers were MY Twin Towers. I grew up watching them rise from my project apartment in Manhattan. I played in the construction site as a teenager...
Here's the way so-called "tolerant" American muslims SHOULD look at the situation: "Why in God's name should we want Ground Zero to continue to be synonymous with islamic terrorism? Why should we remind our fellow Americans of the evil that is perpetrated in the name of islam? We surely see the injustice of the situation of demanding religious tolerance from America which, in fact, took us in and sheltered us and allowed us to prosper far from the despotic terrorist regimes we fled from. Let us say no to this proposal and let true healing begin."
But what will actually happen is American muslims will start that damn snickering again, and say, "See what we got for 9/11? A musselman president and now a mosque at the place WE proudly destroyed!! Oh thank allah, let the dancing in the streets begin again in rememberance of 9/11 and OUR conquest of the EVIL America we hate so much but are forced to live in anyway..."
The Muslims almost always go through what they promised Allah. They promised to bring down the symbol of American economic power, the twin towers. They tried in 1995 but didn't succeed. Clinton treated this as a criminal matter. They succeed in 2001. Now they want to plant the flag of Islam, a mosque over the dead bodies of all the people they killed. This should be an insult to all Americans.
I've had it up to the butt with all this tolerence BS. We must force our parasitic, violent minority to feel as UNWELCOME and UNSAFE as possible. That's what muhammed instructed them to do to all us infidels. This is still OUR country and I don't give a flying f**k WHAT offends them. If they want to kick up a fuss, they're plenty of us armed. Remember the words of our mufti in chief, "The US could be the largest moslem country in the world". I would much rather die in the fight than to have that happen
Eastview,
Webb: A mosque? What kind of mosque?
Carson: A muslim mosque.
Webb: What kind of muslim mosque?
Carson: It's mendacious.
Webb: A mendacious muslim mosque?
Carson: That's right. And it's malevolent.
Webb: A malevolent mendacious muslim mosque?
Is that about it?
Carson: Yeah. Except that it's also
monstrous...
Webb: A monstrous malevolent mendacious
muslim mosque?
If you saw the Carson / Webb "Copper Clapper Caper" classic-bit you'll understand. Hope it's OK to attempt a little humor amidst the rendings of "JW Schism 2010..."
G
"Proof of OUR religious tolerance"!!!Folks, they came on us like stink on s**t and they want US to prove WE are tolerant. I believe the burden of proof should be on the aggressors. Does our flag say kick me???
Look, if we weren't tolerant, the streets would be full of moslem carcasses.
So sick of Islam. Why isn't everyone by now?
I too am disgusted sick. Judging from the above posts, so are most here. This issue of a mosque at Ground Zero should be taken public nationwide, if it is really an issue at all, and let the whole world go sick over it. Let the people learn what Islam is really all about, and vent their disgust about its vile supremacist, idiotic anti-human ideology.
Excellent post, Wellington. Islam be damned.
"It is mind boggling why the followers of the Abrahamic faiths are fighting."
Mind boggling? Maybe because the only thing Islam has in common with Judaism & Christianity are certain names.
Maybe also because Islam promises to reign supreme over every other faith - and continues to move forward in that quest in a violent manner, day after day after day. Do you think that might be part of it?
"Western civilization is a misnomer - it is a actually islamo-judaic-christo civilization - with the foundation being Islamic."
Are you truly that ignornant? Where did you learn your history? That does not even deserve a response.
"The mosque will prove to Muslims that Americans do not equate Islam and terrorism."
As the kids say on the internet, ORLY?
Let's see. Muslims equate Islam and terrorism because it is Islam that teaches them to do it. Americans equate Islam and terrorism because they've read the Koran and have two eyes to see what MUSLIMS did to NYC.
Gee, looks like the only one in this discussion who doesn't equate the two is YOU.
zinda dilie, you fell off the turnip truck prematurely. Catch up with it, get back on, and ride a bit farther until you come to the stop called "Knowledge." Then get off. Check back with us then. Good luck.
Andy wrote:
I read that the logo is the word hizbu-llāh in stylised Kufic.
There is no crescent.
What looks like a crecent is part of the writing.
...................
You may well be right, Andy. If you look back at my original post, I am quoting Alec Rawls, as cited by poster justamomof4. I actually wondered about that line myself, so I did a quick Google of the Hizb'allah flag, and that one element looked pretty much like a crescent to me.
This was not a major point of what Rawls' was saying. I'm sure his general point about the importance of the crescent as an Islamic symbol still holds—and that the memorial's designer could not have been unaware of this fact.
Still, it is very important to me to be scrupulously accurate, and I may have been too hasty here. Thanks for calling me on it.
More:
I read all your posts and even save some.
If there is something I have not read before I will check it.
...................
That means a lot to me, Andy—I'm glad some of my posts are useful. I'm no expert in this field, though—and we all need to correct each others' errors. Thanks again.
This is like raping someone after you have murdered them, while the political hierarchy holds the body in place. Pretty disgusting visual, I know. As native New Yorker, one who literally saw the WTC being built, I can only hope that the NYC urban street gangs begin to use their hepped-up rage in a mercilessly constructive manner. New Yorkers will be needing them.
Muslims fare best in societies where they are minorities and are generally not allowed to run riot. Case in point the two "Faisals". Faisal Shahzad - the idiot bomber of Pakistan, bottomed the Class of 2010. Dr. Faesal Shah - of Indian Kashmir topped the 2010 Indian Administrative Services examination. Even the names are eerily similar.
And an absolute NOOOOOOOO to the mosque. 40 to 70 Indian lives lost in 9/11 and statistically 90% of them must not have been Muslims.
"If this war is like no other, it is likely because the enemy is making his war with the very money we give him..."
This is a war like no other for a variety of reasons, including of course the unique nature of the enemy in this case.
But one important reason why this is a war like no other is because most of the people on our side -- including virtually all of our intelligentsia in politics, news media, academe and pop culture, but also including most ordinary folks -- persist in refusing to recognize that Muslims are in fact waging a unique war against us, and even worse, persist in refusing to agree that we should be at war against the Muslims who are warring against us.
Even many in the anti-Islam movement think this way (cf. the exchanges I have had with PRCS in another thread -- http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/05/pakistani-muslim-shahzad-faisal-arrested-in-nyc-car-bomb-case.html#comments -- search for "Hesperado" and "PRCS").
We have to unite--no matter what our political or religous beliefs might be-if we love freedom and progress. There shouldn't be any mosques, period, whether they be in NY or Mecca. Islam is not only a threat to our way of life and civilization, but the human race in general. That's because Islam is retrograde and anti-scientific. In a theoretical nightmare world where Islam becomes a dominant force, the world would become a larger, more grotesque image of other Islamic hells. Who is going to save the human race from disease if not kafir scientists? If Islam becomes a majority, there will be no one left to transmit knowledge or attempt to solve the problems facing humanity-it will make "Mad Max" look like utopia. Homo sapiens will be decimated by disease, starvation, and (ew) inbreeding (cousin marriage is allowed, sometimes encouraged in Islamic culture)-modernity will cease to exist for all time. And all the misery inflicted will be applauded by the Islamic hordes on a perceived higher principle--the new Dark Ages will more prevalent and harder to come out of, if at all possible--does anyone feel me on this? Can you feel the mounting sense of panic the rational and lovers of freedom feel?
Surely it would be more appropriate for the muslims to show their contrition by paying for a memorial chapel, synagogue and perhaps Hindu and Sikh temples on the site?
A public latrine with the pictures of the hijackers laminated into the bowls and urinals would serve for atheists.
This would demonstrate their total rejection of 9/11 and its lunatics to the whole world.
On the Hezbollah flag, see the reasoning of Alec Rawls on his site:
"some Islamic crescents are fatter than others. The fatness is not what defines the shape. Hezbollah uses a maximally anexoric crescent, where a single line traces the typical 2/3rds of a circle of arc (encircling the globe, to indicate world domination, as with the MAS logo)."
Rawls provides this link to the Hezbollah flag:
http://kenraggio.com/Hezbollah%20Flag.jpg
To flesh out Rawls' reasoning, also scroll down through the comments, where he responds to objections:
http://www.floppingaces.net/2010/04/15/nuclear-summit-logo-is-an-islamic-shaped-crescent-reader-post/
On dumbledoresarmy's proposal for a proper Ground Zero structure, it includes:
"The names of the murderers would NOT appear anywhere in the memorial: let their names be entirely erased."
If I were designing it, I would include the names of the terrorists, engraved in all the urinals, to receive the urine of visitors regularly.
Then, if our society were sane enough, we would include the words Prophet Muhammad (the "Prophet" necessary to distinguish it from "Muhammad the cab driver") in all the urinals as well -- commissioning artist Andres Serrano to update and reboot his Piss Christ exhibit into a Piss Muhammad set (including in his commission $1,000,000 per annum for all the bodyguards and protection he never needed for his "edgy" blasphemy against Christ).
Surely it would be more appropriate for the muslims to show their contrition by paying for a memorial chapel, synagogue and perhaps Hindu and Sikh temples on the site?
That will be the day !!
@ Hesperado
Prophet Muhammad (the "Prophet" necessary to distinguish it from "Muhammad the cab driver")
YES!!! Someone asked my why they described him as "Prophet Muhammad" and that was my answer too!
gravenimage & Andy,
Read my post to Andy above about the Nezbollah flag.
According to Rawls, apparently, the crescent in the Hezbollah flag is that large shape that looks like a large circle. As Rawls argues in that site I linked, Islamic crescents vary greatly in shapes and sizes, but they have certain thematic constants, including geometric attributes I cannot understand as Rawls articulates them, as well as a theme of enveloping the world in a kind of circular pincer embrace, which can be seen in the Hezbollah circle.
You need to read all of Rawls' various statements on that link (including in the comments section where he responds to objections) to get a full picture of his reasoning.
http://www.floppingaces.net/2010/04/15/nuclear-summit-logo-is-an-islamic-shaped-crescent-reader-post/
"It deliberately insults/attacks other JW'ers. It gets off on it. It has an explosive rage disorder. Advice: Steer clear of It."
Spot on, Kim! ...and he's suppose to be 'one of us', but I'm beginning to wonder which side he's truly on? ...
Antoine Augustin Calmet (1672-1757), French biblical scholar and Benedictine abbot, had a curious interpretation of Ezekiel 7:17 (All knees shall be weak as water) to indicate "a malretention [inability to hold urine], often the natural effect of extreme fear or terror."
A urinal with the Islamic terrorists' names engraved in the bowls would be a splendid memorial!
Hesperado wrote:
On the Hezbollah flag, see the reasoning of Alec Rawls on his site:
...........
Thanks, Hesperado.
Question Everything demonstrates the obtuse reasoning of Equivalency Theory in his reply to Kim:
[Kim wrote] I put Scientology before Islam. It's total idiocy and lies, but at least it doesn't kill people. Ergo, Scientology is superior to Islam.
[Question Everything responded] Then it's lucky for us we're not using the 'Kim' scale of sane religions. Scientology kills. A brief google search will list some of the dead people that Scientology were unable to cover up.
According to the scale of Equivalency Theory, an organization that might have allegedly killed a handful of people is on a par with an organization that has been
blowing up innocents all over the world for years,
beheading people all over the world for years,
stabbing people all over the world for years,
shooting people all over the world for years,
threatening artists, politicians, academics and many others for years with death threats,
lynching people all over the world for years,
rending bodies apart and stomping them until their bodies are a pulp of blood and bones all over the world for years,
mass-demonstrating for the death of various people including artists and writers for years,
let alone:
mass-murdering millions for centuries,
enslaving millions for centuries,
gang-raping millions for centuries,
pillaging and terrorizing millions for centuries,
and whose members been found out to have been plotting to mass-murder us dozens of times after 911.
And Question Everything wants to compare this with Scientology!? In so doing, Question Everything has proved himself to be outside the pale of the Anti-Islam Movement.
I much prefer Kim's scale -- which Question Everything so crassly denigrated -- by which to measure the superiority of all other religions (and most other ideologies) in comparison with Islam.
http://www.avraidire.eu/2010/02/jay-smith-on-speakers-corner-hyde-park-debating-with-muslims/
Fascinating debate, what is the religion of peace? Islam or Christianity? Jay Smith takes on the muslims on Hyde Park, Speaker’s Corner in London, every Sunday.
http://www.avraidire.eu/2010/02/jay-smith-on-speakers-corner-hyde-park-debating-with-muslims/
Fascinating debate, what is the religion of peace? Islam or Christianity? Jay Smith takes on the muslims on Hyde Park, Speaker’s Corner in London, every Sunday.
DefenderofIslam sez:
"There are new church and other place of non-muslim workship being built in Saudic Arabic you hater just donot see it.Only Mecca and Medine arenot open to built non-muslim place of workship."
I seem to recall Saudia Arabia making an allegation that they are allowing a new Christian church to be built, but if true, it is only for show...a show that allows the Muslims to say "See ...we have allowed a Church to be built"....Of course...all who attend this "church" would be marked for death at a later date...
I have some facts for DefenderofIslam, not that he/she is receptive to facts or the truth.
"The Persecution of Christians in Saudi Arabia.
Saudi Arabia, having no constitution, is a Muslim monarchy under the leadership of King Fahd Bin Abd Al-Aziz. Saudi Arabia can be fairly described as the most repressive Muslim country in the world. By the end of the 7th century, Muslim raiders had either killed or expelled all Christians from the country. Today, churches are banned, prayer meetings in private homes are prohibited, Bibles are confiscated, and proclaiming the Gospel is punishable by such extreme measures as execution by beheading or life in prison. Any display of Christian symbols is entirely forbidden and the practice of Christianity even by foreigners is strictly prohibited, with a few exceptions.
The expatriate church, numbering over 30,000, is forced to meet in secret and the Saudi Muslims converting to Christianity, which are growing in number, are taking extreme measures to guard their identity in fear of severe reprisals from the government or family members. The government's religious police, the Mutawah, routinely searches for Christians holding Bible studies in their homes or otherwise sharing their faith in public. In 1997, two Filipinos who became Christians while in prison, were beheaded after being warned numerous times to halt their evangelistic activities and to stop leading Bible studies. Scores of expatriate Christians have been imprisoned and expelled on account of their beliefs. In June 1998, 31 believers were arrested in an apparent crackdown in Riyadh. ICC hosted the international coordinator for the underground house churches in Saudi Arabia and together initiated efforts in Washington that led to the release of all 31 in an unprecedented short period of time. Fortunately, all of them escaped the customary 70 lashes, but nevertheless were immediately deported. Many of them had been employed in Saudi Arabia for more than 10 years.
Christian leaders in Saudi Arabia are concerned that the government's actions of arresting and deporting Christians is a deliberate plan aimed at eliminating all Christian activities in Saudi Arabia."
Islam wages a war against the West with all accessible means except direct military confrontation. It seems to me that the unique feature of that war is the vastness of Islam’s fifth column and the extent in which Islam relies on its treasonous effort. In fact, one could say that the fifth column is Islam’s true task force. I think that at this stage of the war the most important job assigned to the fifth column is massive propaganda directed against the notion that there indeed is a war.
The goebelesque idea of building a mosque in vicinity of Ground Zero is diabolic trick intended to confuse Americans and lead them away from the testimony of their eyes which tells them they are under fire.
Don't forget the foot baths, that's where Mohammed's mug can go. What about a picture of James Woods on the 'dry-run' hand dryers. aggh
To all my British friends/compatriots:
When the Salisbury Cathedral falls (under the shadow of the Crescent), we are all doomed.
Just my opinion, mind you, but Salisbury Cathedral represents the best of Western Christendom; the epitome that everything that Islam does not.
My two pence.
Mecca was actually a Shiva temple of Hindus. I have brought to the attention several times through anti-islamic web sites. Proof? When hindus go to temple they shave their head- muslims going to Mecca do that. Those who go to Mecca wear a type of dress which is the traditional dress in south India, even now by south indian priests. Hindus circumambulate when they visit temples (circling the temple once,thrice, or nine times. Mecca visitors do that. In some hindu temples animals are sacrificed. It is done in Mecca. Hindu temples contain wells/ponds and water from there is considered holy. Meccans drink water from zam-zam and they say it is holy. Above all, Mohammed destroyed icons from the earlier temple. What else would have been those except hindu deities? That it was not my imagination. When one of the greatest saints of India, Guru Nanak, went to Mecca about 500 years back, he informed islamic scholars while they engaged him in discussion that this Mecca (temple) was originally belonged to Lord Mahadeva (Lord Shiva). It can be verified from Sikh history. (I re-submit here as I have sent this comment to some other news comments)
I can't believe this. I'm disgusted to sickness with this news. This is an incredible, unforgivable insult to the American people. The pain of 9/11 does not really go away. It's always there, just beneath the surface, and this brings the fury and pain right back.
I will fight against Islam until the end. I will never surrender. Never.
Point taken.
I do think, however, that the opposition to the proposed mosque could be handily combined with wholehearted moral *and financial* support for the Greek Orthodox in their campaign to rebuild the beautiful and historic St Nicholas' Greek Orthodox Church (which church was destroyed by the fall of the towers).
That lovely little church should certainly be rebuilt as good as new or even better, exactly where it originally stood. It and its grounds could serve as a place of reflection and pilgrimage - I understand that some of those killed in the attack were initially laid out in the vicinity of the church, and that indeed, some of the dead fell in the grounds.
George -
glad you liked my ideas, posted by me above on May 7 2010 at 6.50 pm, as to what might be done on the WTC site and on the Flight 93 memorial site, respectively.
Re. my idea for a Flight 93 memorial:
I have since had another thought.
Here's what I originally wrote:
"Set in the paving along the long axis, these words from the Gospel of John: "Greater love hath no man than this, than that he lay down his life for his friends".
"Set in the paving of the shorter axis (that is, the 'arms' of the cross, = the wings of the plane or of the eagle), these words from Isaiah (which are also part of a very popular modern hymn): "I will bear you up on eagle's wings".
"Where the two avenues cross each other, at the heart of the cross, place a pool and an eternal flame.
"There is one other scripture text that I think could be incorporated somewhere, perhaps around the rim of the pool - a line from the Lord's Prayer - "Deliver us from evil".
I have since thought of an alternative to that verse 'deliver us from evil'.
One could inscribe, instead, both in the original Hebrew and in English, these words from the fourth verse of Psalm 23: "I will fear no evil".
I see you're on rare form again Hesp.
Now, go and check your facts, find out you're wrong and come back and apologize.
Scientology has killed, which was my main point. The fact that Kim didn't even know that and thinks of it as merely " total idiocy and lies shows her naivety.
You then go on to bluster: And Question Everything wants to compare this with Scientology!? In so doing, Question Everything has proved himself to be outside the pale of the Anti-Islam Movement.
See what you did there? You confirmed what an utter moron you are. It wasn't my comparison, was it? Kim made the comparison, I corrected her lie, you then jumped into a conversation you didn't bother to read.
You are perfect for theism, so quick to rally around, so willing to heap on scorn, so stupid. You're a prime example of why people with any sense laugh at theists.
Now try to stay on topic. Forget I post here. Ignore me.
FOCUS! Know what I mean? F O C U S
Hesperado
a small correction to your posting above, of May 8 2010 12.59, responding to my ideas re. memorials.
You wrote: 'On dumbledoresarmy's proposal for a proper Ground Zero structure, it includes:
"The names of the murderers would NOT appear anywhere in the memorial: let their names be entirely erased."
If I were designing it, I would include the names of the terrorists, engraved in all the urinals, to receive the urine of visitors regularly."
The line about erasing the names of the Muslim murderers was in connection with my idea for a *flight 93 memorial*: I had just suggested that the names of the non-Muslim persons on board, along with their seat numbers [i.e. where they were sitting in the plane], birth and death dates, and a suitable religious or other text or symbol chosen by the bereaved family, would be placed either on the 'headstone' at the foot of their memorial tree, or engraved into 'their' standing stone. I wanted to make it clear that the Muslim hijackers would NOT be represented in any way within the memorial.
I guess that a major memorial site such as that in honor of the *non-Muslim* persons aboard Flight 93, *would* have to have public toilet facilities *somewhere* close by to cater for the many visitors expected; such a facility would be discreetly tucked out of sight and of course would not be regarded as part of the memorial.
Your idea re. urinals has a certain horrid appeal, though you forgot to include the ladies' loos. (Did you observe that Fred Mk 1 posting immediately before you in the thread, on May 8 2010 at 12.33, had an almost identical idea? - Fred having previously suggested that the Muslims should be made to build memorial places of worship for assorted non-Muslim faiths, on Ground Zero, then proposed that atheists, not requiring a place of worship, might be given somewhere to express their feelings on the subject of the attack - to wit - "A public latrine with the pictures of the hijackers laminated into the bowls and urinals would serve for atheists.").
In Afghanistan in the 19th century, as explained in John Masters' 'Bugles and a Tiger', Muslim women used to urinate in the faces of non-Muslim British and Indian soldiers who had been captured, tortured, and buried in the ground up to their necks by the Muslim men; so the idea of a succession of infidel females peeing on the names of dead Muslim hijackers whenever they went to the public loos near the Ground Zero and the Flight 93 memorials, does have a bleak symmetry.
Ref your note from John Masters book, another history "The Savage Frontier - A History the Anglo-Afghan-Wars" by D S Richards says they did more than just urinate on non-muslim prisoners. They staked them out, kept their mouths open with sticks and had women urinate in them until their lungs filled and the drowned. Hence the last verse of Kiplings "The Young British Soldier"
When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
A little OT but as Afghanistan has been mentioned a British Soldier interviewed last week said things were hotting up because the weather was better and the Taliban did not like the winter any more than they did. But the this year the Taliban are not the "Spray and pray" shooters of last year and are far better trained and equipped.
One British unit has lost 3 of its snipers - usually the coolest and best trained men - to Taliban snipers in 6 months. Another only survived a hit on his helmet by an inch. One wonders if the Taliban "somehow" got hold of the precision rifles the Austrians sold to Iran 2 years ago?
Did/do any Austrians serve in Iraq or Afghanistan?
The raging pit bull insulter up above just called Hesperado an "utter moron" and "stupid."
Can something be done about this name-calling insulting verbal abuser? This "intellectual adolescent" (as Thomas h put - see 5:45 AM May 8 comment above).
Take cover, people: Here come the explosive insults, name-calling, and vicious sarcasm! The verbal abuse falling like napalm from he who is superior!
"This is a community center, a community and cultural center, which would include certainly prayer space for Muslims and we hope for non-Muslims as well,
We hope for non-Muslims as well?????
Every church in New York needs to take their entire congragation to the new mosque with bible and crucifix in hand and enter this mosque and pray to Jesus. There needs to be media present and this should be done on a regular basis (with the media present) to see the eventual reaction from the Muslims when the eventually will show their true colors of intollerance.
How the USA government define the word of tolerance islam?
Question Everything (QE) wrote:
"Now, go and check your facts, find out you're wrong and come back and apologize.
Scientology has killed, which was my main point."
After some Googling in this matter of the Church of Scientology having murdered people, it became clear to me that apparently this is yet another issue of a tissue of allegations and no smoking gun proof -- i.e., no convictions in courts of law. I gave up with amused exasperation at the point my Google search came upon a story of a court case where one witness claimed (but apparently never proved) that he had been ordered by a Scientology person to "kill a human being" -- but on reading the details, it turns out the claim was really about that Scientology person telling the witness to arm himself and guard some compound in New Mexico that was the frequent target of illegal Mexican looters, and to "kill them if you have to". To compare this kind of thing as an equivalent to what Muslims have been doing is astronomically ludicrous.
The fact that Kim didn't even know that and thinks of it as merely " total idiocy and lies shows her naivety.
I think it's well past the time for QE to be obliged to supply the data that supports his claim about Scientology, instead of ordering his interlocutors to do his work for him. When he told me to "go and check your facts" (see above), he is failing to note that I did not even try to bring forth any of "my facts" -- I merely adverted to the status of his "fact" (of Scientology killing people) as an allegation until proven otherwise.
My point, however, was that even if he found that data, it would only demonstrate that Scientology is a dangerous and evil cult -- about one billion times less dangerous than Islam. Does that mean our societies should not have Scientology on the table of concerns to do take action against? Of course not. But along with the Atheist Equivalencist's strange disregard for elementary arithmetical disproportion (Islam's millions of murders compared with a handful of Scientology's purported murders), there is the closely related inability to prioritize on the basis of that disproportionality.
You then go on to bluster: [Here QE quotes me:] And Question Everything wants to compare this with Scientology!? In so doing, Question Everything has proved himself to be outside the pale of the Anti-Islam Movement.
See what you did there? You confirmed what an utter moron you are. It wasn't my comparison, was it? Kim made the comparison...
QE seems ignorant of the fact that there are two subtly different shades of meaning to the word "compare/comparison": from Webster's dictionary:
1. To represent as similar, as for the purpose of illustration; to liken
2. To examine the character or qualities of... two or more persons or things, for the purpose of discovering their resemblances or differences [my emphasis]
From QE's ejaculation I quoted above, QE took my meaning of what I claimed QE of doing, to be the same as Kim's meaning of what QE is claiming she is doing (she didn't use the word "compare" or "comparison" to describe what she was doing with Scientology vis-a-vis Islam, though we can see that she could be said to be doing Webster's definition #2 -- specifically with regard to the discovery of differences between two things (viz., Scientology vs. Islam). However, my use of the word "compare/comparison" to describe what QE is doing is primarily the #1 Webster's definition, and only the "discovering their resemblances" part of the #2 definition (which comports with the #1 definition).
In a nutshell:
When QE is making a comparison between Islam and Scientology, he is tending to try to show their similarities; but when Kim and I might be said to be making a comparison between Islam and Scientology (though neither Kim nor I used the word "compare/comparison" to describe our own arguments with regard to Islam vis-a-vis Scientology), we are trying to show how they differ from each other -- and not merely how they differ slightly, but so astronomically, we conclude that anyone even hinting of coming within miles of the ballpark of possibly entertaining the notion in their wildest dreams of a similarity between the two -- let alone going further in this regard as QE seems to be doing -- is an idiot of staggering proportions.
I corrected her lie...
QE here does something I have noticed other people do who tend to use shrill and hysterical hyperbole: they designate a purported inaccuracy by their opponent as a "lie", which is a needless and inflammatory imputation of conscious intent to deceive, where none has been demonstrated.
dumbledoresarmy and Fred,
Interesting gruesome detail about the Afghanis -- gruesome detail #2389 in the list of what Muslims have done throughout history.
It reconfirms my conviction that we need not worry that we could "become like them" if we took more aggressive actions. Even if we literally installed latrines in which to urinate on engraved names of Muhammad, we would still be light years from "becoming like them". Even, frankly, if we had a few riots that resulted in substantiating the allegations of CAIR re: a "backlash" that resulted in vandalized property or even also a few deaths -- we would still be light years away from "becoming like them". Even if we rounded up all Muslims and interred them in camps, and/or if we deported them all out of the West, we would still be light years away from "becoming like them".
Of course, this provides cold comfort in a West where that anxiety that we could "become like them" is erected in stone as one of the Ten Commandments of Political Correctness.
Thus, what in fact we are light years away from becoming is, to paraphrase Eisenhower, "becoming what we are" -- for what we are, at heart, is what we were, before we became someone and something else, through PC MC: even if we can still recognize ourselves in the mirror, what's more important is what we can'trecognize in our reverse portrait of Dorian Grey -- the disease beneath the good and hale looks.
"Please, don’t misunderstand me. I have very close atheist, or agnostic friends. But their convictions result from an intellectual effort and rigour necessary for understanding and assimilating thoughts of Hume, Paine, Nietzsche, Russell….
But that questioneverything (gosh! what a pompous, snotty self-promoting moniker) parrot is a intellectual adolescent, a primitive village atheist yapping his crude slogans an intelligent atheist would not touch with a ten foot pole.
You advise him to “Question them”. I’d say to him “question your brainpower first”. At least there would be a chance he won’t keep on making an ass of himself.
Otherwise, there is a plenty of websites dedicated to atheism/theism debate, where he could show his erudition. If he doesn’t go there, but insists on littering JW with his unrelated to the purpose and aspirations of the site gibberish he should be treated as a troll - ignored, or banned."
I agree, Thomas_h ...hear, hear!
"The raging pit bull insulter up above just called Hesperado an "utter moron" and "stupid." ...Kim
Spot on, Kim; and calling Hesp those names is like calling Brad Pitt ugly ...I mean how ridiculous, eh? Hesp is one of our smartest & brightest contributors (obviously!), and QE knows this. And Thomas_h is right, too! ...QE needs to find another place to litter his garbage with.
Kim,
Can something be done about this name-calling insulting verbal abuser? This intellectual adolescent??
I indeed called him an intellectual adolescent (please do not forget that I also referred to him as pompous fool)
But I think an under-endowed intellectual flasher is more to the point. Just like a flasher hiding in a dark alley all set to expose his private parts to an unwary passer-by, questionanything jumps on any occasion to expose his intellectual organs to a mystified reader. Except that he is simply too stupid to realize how comically undersized his organs are.
What to do about him? Kim, my friend, ignore him as you would ignore a “normal” flasher while giggling at his absurdly small appendage. Or just look the other way.
And don’t worry about Hesperado. He, himself, doesn’t seem too concerned. He has wiped the floor with questionanything a few times before so if he doesn’t pay attention to his drivel now it is most probably because he gave up on ninny. And so should the rest of us.
Hesperado, great attempt at obfuscation.
I'll say it AGAIN slowly so you may stand a better chance of comprehending: Scientology - has - killed.
Kim drew the comparison, not I.
Just because they have more litigious lawyers doesn't change the fact that they have killed their own cult members. Lisa McPherson, Heribert Pfaff and Josephus A. Havenith to name a couple. This naturally doesn't include those induced to suicide.
Did O.J. kill Nicole and Ron? Not according to the trial.
Hesp : When QE is making a comparison between Islam and Scientology[SNIP]
It wasn't MY comparison, moron.
The hyena mentality of some of the theists on this site (the Hyena Coven) is breathtaking in its hypocrisy and shocking in its schoolyard bullying tactics. The funniest part is that you too wrapped up in your clique to even see it.
Thomas_h, you're big on insults and very light on actual information or fact base argument. Instead of kissing up to the Hyena Coven for fear that they will turn on you why not address my arguments?
Coven and sycophants, try addressing the argument, not attacking the person.
A Mosque built in any country makes it an Islamic country.
Islam uses freedom, it does not give it.
Like a dog marking its territory. If you built a church near the dome in the rock don't expect them not to jihad!
Ask them to locate space for your church over there by the dome before giving them space here. I can hear the lalalalalalalalalalaala from here! Watch it burn!
Give me a break!
Oh, bugger-off!
I've never heard of Scientology killing anyone! Leave me out of your drooling drivel.
Bravo Hesp and Brava Champ!
Oh, and there's QE calling everyone else "morons" again! lol - Look to yourself, you verbal abuser, insulter, and bully.
And now he's referred to us as the "hyena coven!"
Can't something be done about this Verbal Abuser? Moderators?
And Bravo Thomas h! You are right about QE: "What to do about him? Kim, my friend, ignore him as you would ignore a “normal” flasher while giggling at his absurdly small appendage. Or just look the other way." No, he needs to be banned. He's a Thread-Destroyer. The bully in the schoolyard needs to be stopped.
"It wasn't MY comparison, moron." - QE to Hesp
No, YOU are the moron. And you have the nerve to say this:
"Coven and sycophants, try addressing the argument, not attacking the person."
What do you call referring to Hesp as a "moron" - you HYPOCRITE.
Can the Mods do something about this creep?
The only thing salvageable from the response of Question Everything (QE) to my argument -- salvageable, that is, meaning either just barely sufficiently coherent or not so utterly devoid of elementary merit by persisting in misunderstanding or mischaracterizing my points as to be worth the minimal time needed to clarify its inaccuracy -- was the following:
Hesp : When QE is making a comparison between Islam and Scientology[SNIP]
It wasn't MY comparison, moron.
While there is a subtle distinction between making a comparison and implying a comparison, the point, of course, is the comparison -- once its implication is verified.
Let us revisit the original substance that started all this: Kim made a statement, then QE responded to it. Later, I argued that QE's response to Kim amounted to Equivalencism -- specifically in this case, the notion that Scientology is roughly equivalent to Islam in terms of badness.
And just to be clear about something that should have been self-evident all along: the notion of Equivalencism necessarily entails a comparison between Islam and any other religion -- the comparison, that is, according to the #1 Webster's definition I cited in my previous post:
1. To represent as similar, as for the purpose of illustration; to liken
Kim wrote: I put Scientology before Islam. It's total idiocy and lies, but at least it doesn't kill people. Ergo, Scientology is superior to Islam.
QE responded: Then it's lucky for us we're not using the 'Kim' scale of sane religions. Scientology kills.
While Kim may or may not have been wrong that Scientology does not kill people (and QE still has failed to produce evidence, instead insisting that his assertions should be good enough), the larger point should be readily inferred by regular Jihad Watch readers and anyone who has grown to know the full horror of Islam. So that, thus, if someone comes along and says -- "Hang on a second, Kim, I have proof here that Scientology in fact has murdered 7 different people over the span of 20 years!"
-- to which Kim (and any self-respecting Jihad Watch supporter) would reasonably respond:
"Huh? So what? Do those 7 murders even put Scientology within a million light years of the evils and danger of Islam?"
Instead of attending to this larger point, QE chose to seize on, and quibble about, Kim's use of "killed anyone" as a measure. Kim could have easily said --
"Even if Scientology has killed a handful of people, it is still superior to Islam by an order of magnitude of a million."
So, unless QE is remarkably obtuse (and by now, that strikes me as a distinct possibility), his decision to seize on and quibble about that aspect, rather than attend to the larger point may be reasonably seen to reflect an Equivalencist tendency on his part, which is based on a failure to see that, although all religions may be bad in certain terms, some religions are worse than others (which of course also means that some are better than others), and the one religion that is the worst of all -- Islam -- is so much worse than all the others, that colloquial phrase comes to mind which is based on the #1 definition in Webster's of "compare/comparison" -- to wit:
there is no comparison.
QE's decision to seize on and quibble about Kim's assertion is, again, indicative of an implied comparison (again, in the #1 Webster's sense, as well as in the first clause of the #2 sense; cf. my previous post to QE above) which he believes in between Scientology and Islam -- an implication reasonably inferred from the context of this dispute, as well as from his past statements about how bad all religions are.
Another quibble, then, on top of the one he seized on with Kim, would be a quibble between making a comparison and implying a comparison -- which I wouldn't doubt QE would also seize upon.
All QE has to do to settle the matter is agree with us that Islam is light years more dangerous and evil than Scientology (with respect to exactly how surpassingly is that contrast, there may be fair disagreements among reasonable people, so long as it is agreed that the contrast renders Islam unique among all religions). As I already said in my previous post, this does not mean that we have to ignore our sociopolitical concern for Scientology -- but it does mean we have to prioritize our respective concerns between the two, rationally according a proportional amount of concern, time, attention and attempts to control each with regard to their appropriate comparative (here using Webster's #2 definition with respect to differences) magnitude of evil & danger.
Hesp, did Kim say that Scientology was better than islam because it hadn't killed anyone?
Yes or no?
QE,
Hesp, did Kim say that Scientology was better than islam because it hadn't killed anyone?
Yes or no?
Yes. But that answer was already present in my previous post -- at least to anyone with reading comprehension who has the ability to make elementary inferences.
Now (as I already articulated in my previous post), we can get back to the real issue behind the Kim-QE-Hesperado dispute: the merits of the position that Islam is astronomically more dangerous and evil than all other religions and cults on Earth, and the argument that anyone who disagrees with that position is not fit to be in the anti-Islam movement.
Thank you for confirming that Kim was wrong.
Thread closed.
Not so fast, Geronimo:
For Kim to be wrong, you need to prove that Scientology has killed people. You haven't done that yet.
Wrongful death lawsuit against the Church of Scientology
JANUARY 2003: Circuit Judge Susan Schaeffer rules the wrongful death lawsuit against the Church of Scientology should continue, and that Dandar can remain on the case.
MAY 2004: The estate of Lisa McPherson and the Church of Scientology reach a settlement. The terms are made confidential.
There are a whole bunch more online that Scientology spooks spend their time playing Whack-A-Mole with. I have inside information on the cult which is why I know.
Just so we're clear: Scientology is a harmless cult compared to islam.
Your apology is accepted.
You're not paying attention!
Question Everything has declared the thread closed.
Everyone go home now.
So it is written. So let it be done.
"Coven and sycophants, try addressing the argument, not attacking the person."
Funny how you expect others to address your arguments, and yet when I did so regarding your OT passages, you said nothing.
Gee, could it be because I posted straight up facts and you had nothing to counter them with? LOL!
So the muslims haven won?
If that is the best QE can put on the table -- after several requests like pulling teeth from him -- then his claim seems exposed for being flimsy at best.
First, a wrongful death is not a "killing" in the sense where one person or group of persons actually puts another to death. It is a legal term that describes a tragic situation where the death of a person is the result of negligence or willful actions that by themselves are no crime but which result in the death of a person.
"[a] wrongful death action is separate and apart from criminal charges"
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Wrongful+Death
Among the examples cited by that site:
1) A blow to the head during an altercation that later results in death is an injury that is intentionally caused.
2) The driver of an automobile who unintentionally causes the death of another in an accident may be held liable for Negligence.
3) An individual who, in violation of local law, neglects to enclose a swimming pool in his yard can be held liable for the omission or failure to act if a child is attracted to the pool and subsequently drowns.
The first example is the only example of violence, but as we see, the death is separate from the violence of the fist-fight, which is why in that case the perpetrator would not even be charged with manslaughter, but the milder charge of wrongful death.
Thus, and secondly, QE's example involved no proven violence (in the sense of the fist-fight of example #1 above) by Scientology members against the person who died, but at best negligent and/or incompetent care of a very psychologically disturbed young woman who had joined the cult; so at best we are looking at a situation approximately in the ballpark of examples #2 and #3.
Thirdly, QE's best example he can put forth is further diluted by the fact that the charge of "wrongful death" was never decided! The case dragged on for a long time (itself an indication of ambiguous evidence), and was only laid to rest by a mutual settlement. A mutual settlement does not prove guilt of a defendant. When cases involve high-profile celebrities, or corporations, or organizations like Scientology -- cases that are potentially publicly embarrassing because of the slanderous aura that unavoidably gets stoked by the media -- and when those cases drag on for a long time, often the defendants settle out of court just to put an end to the process. One can certainly continue to suspect their guilt, but one cannot prove it.
QE's only example thus far -- by itself, and because it is thus far the only one he has proferred -- fails the test of proving that "Scientology has killed people".
Just got off the phone with Hiroshima, they don't want us building an Enola Gay museum there, so lets show a comparable amount of good taste, and NOT build this shit near Ground Zero....
Mo : Gee, could it be because I posted straight up facts and you had nothing to counter them with? LOL!
No, it's because your posts are dull.
The OT, according to several priests, Sunday School teachers and personal friends that I've asked constitutes the 'unsanitized' bible.
Hesperado : First, a wrongful death is not a "killing" [SNIP]
Great! You'd have fitted in perfectly on the OJ jury.
Deaths
In your blinkered support of Kim you've entirely missed the point of my comment and also fail yet again to make a succinct point. I'm no doctor but I suspect you have a severe case of verbal diarrhea.
"If that is the best QE can put on the table -- after several requests like pulling teeth from him -- then his claim seems exposed for being flimsy at best."
Exactly, Hesp ...and btw, you've won the debate, hands down.
Mo ...
Don't listen to him. Your comments are not dull, but bold and spot on, and I really enjoy reading them.
Bouncer! ...where's Awake when we need him, lol ...
Someone needs to show QE the door.
Marker. This is Comment #261, which is as high as I have seen it. The numbers get run up whenever a drive-by provocateur decides to engage and provoke the locals, which we have seen before. This time the provocateur was Question_Everything. Best to ignore him.
"Best to ignore him."
Yep.
Thanks champ.
Btw, the link to "Deaths" QE provided (from an anti-Scientology site) includes at the top of the list (most recent) the death of John Travolta's son! Are they insinuating that John Travolta killed his own son!?
The remainder of the items all reflect the kind of circumstantial smokeless-gun "evidence" typical of Conspiracy Theorists.
"Are they insinuating that John Travolta killed his own son!?"
Clicked on that link and it certainly appears that way. Looks like John is being tried and convicted by the forum mob. And what a lame site, too. There sure is a ton of junk on the internet these days, and folks just lap it up ...
Champ, you're a liar. The link goes to a very brief CNN report. In your excitement to heap more inaccurate nonsense on me you didn't even bother to check your facts.
Asking for Awake to 'rescue' five or six of you from my merciless attacks is pathetic beyond belief. What's he going to do, threaten me again? Take Eastview's advice, misdiagnosed as it is, and ignore me.
Eastview, I've been on this site much longer than you. Don't try to label me as some kind of agitator. If you're to lazy or stupid to read the various threads I've been involved in recently for what they are then stay out of it.
I asked a question regarding Kim's assessment of the internet and have been hounded since. I can take the verbal abuse (otherwise I wouldn't come back) but I dislike the hypocrisy.
Yip away, little doggies.
liar
pathetic
misdiagnosed
lazy
stupid
hypocrisy
little doggies
You deserve anything you get QE....
The Descent of the Modernists:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/10/Descent_of_the_Modernists,_E._J._Pace,_Christian_Cartoons,_1922.jpg
I would even place "islam" at the bottom as well ...
QE, actually I am familiar with your posts, and have generally found them to be good and thoughtful. Certainly no regular reader of JW would have any reason to dispute your anti-jihad credentials. But, with respect, your debating style involving other posters here lacks restraint and civility, and includes too much injudicious language and too many personal attacks, certainly that is the case in this particular thread. My suggestion for others to ignore you was to help bring a halt to the tit-for-tats going back and forth. I would make the same suggestion to you.
There used to be fellow here by the name of Jim Foster, who also had good anti-jihadist credentials. You may remember him. Several of us welcomed him when he first appeared, believing he would bring a much needed Jewish perspective into the comments. Alas, any comment stream he became involved in quickly racked up an astronomical total of comments, largely because of the insults he delivered and fights he picked with others over what often were minutia. In the end, despite his anti-jihadist fervor, Jim Foster was banned for what amounted to antisocial and aggressive behavior toward other JW posters.