Calling the Ground Zero imam's bluff

Imam Feisel Abdul Rauf wants us to believe that he is moderate, tolerant, peaceful, the whole nine yards. Pay no attention to the lies, the deceptions, the advocacy for Sharia, the blaming America for 9/11 -- no, none of it matters. He is for peace. He is for tolerance. He is for understanding. And so now, in a brilliant open letter, Pamela Geller calls his bluff. Taking his self-definition at face value, she calls on him to act upon it -- by canceling plans for an Islamic supremacist mega-mosque at Ground Zero.

"Dear Imam Rauf and Daisy Khan...............A Heartfelt Plea," by Pamela Geller at Atlas Shrugs, June 27:

Dear Imam Rauf and Daisy Khan,

The remains of another seventy-two people were discovered on Friday not far from where you plan to build a thirteen-story Islamic center and mosque. Here we are, close to ten years after the largest jihadist attack ever to take place on American soil, and bodies, corpses, are still being recovered. Who knows how many body parts were found in the Burlington Coat Factory building when the landing gear crashed through all five floors? Thousands were never recovered. Their cemetery, their burial ground, is the area in and around Ground Zero.

Of course, as one of the leaders of the opposition to the painful and strangely thoughtless "Cordoba Initiative," my group SIOA will be pursuing legal avenues to stop or at least dramatically slow down the building of this mosque on the site that many consider to be a war memorial, while also staging mega-protests and sit-ins if and when construction begins, etc. But must it come to that?

You and I are New Yorkers. We are Americans, first. You, too, felt the devastating pain and anguish when the military arm of Islam (al qaeda) unleashed its attack on America on September 11th. The gaping hole at Ground Zero is a constant reminder of that terrible war.

Must we go legal? Must we stage more rallies with tens of thousands of Americans opposing the mosque? Can we not, as human beings, and in the interest of building bridges, mutual understanding and respect, implore you to reconsider your plans? I am sure your motivation to build bridges was a good one. But as you can see, it has had the opposite effect. The public outcry of millions of Americans make plain the wound that has been reopened and the terrible pain this is causing for families, for patriots, for Muslims of conscience. It is unbearable. This surely was not your intent.

Interfaith dialogue is a two-way street. I believe we should all be sensitive to each other. I don't see Muslims separately or apart, I see Americans. Period. Americans who love this country, and don't share the idea of "pure Islam" or "original" Islam that is found in Islamic countries. In many of the emails I receive, many Muslims understand the pain "Cordoba" inflicts -- not just the idea but the name itself (evoking Islamic conquest over the West).

I call upon your conscience, your goodness, your love of America, to move you to reconsider. More rallies will be staged -- tens of thousands will show. People might get hurt in a sit-in trying to stop the ground breaking of a mosque looking down on Ground Zero. Why? In the interest of building bridges?

Can we talk about this? Can we discuss this? Can the building have a church and a synagogue as well as a mosque? Or perhaps no mosque at all -- much the way community centers like the 92nd Street Y or the YWCA, to which you have compared your plan, don't have churches or synagogues.

As a man of the clergy, you must understand the pain this is causing for the victims who mourn their dead, for Americans who mourn their country's losses ........ You can not have wanted to create such sorrow.

What can we do to get you to withdraw this plan? Should we try to raise the money to release you from this tragic mistake? How can we help you? We want to work with you and do the right thing, build bridges and show each other mutual understanding and mutual respect. As a religious man, you would never mean to cause such overwhelming sadness and grief.

Imam Rauf, please withdraw this plan and show the world real understanding and kindness and empathy.

Sincerely yours,

Pamela Geller

Please sign this appeal to the Imam Rauf and Daisy Khan. Let them hear us.

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Pamela is way nicer than I am...I don't know that it's possible for a kufr to 'reason' with a Mahoundian, but it is a nice try...

I throw up shortly :-(

Imam Feisel Abdul Rauf is or better he will be a "Taqiyyah-Master" (Q 3:28, 5:51)

http://www.faithfreedom.org/articles/satire/punishment-for-not-going-to-jihad-and-killing-kuffar-is-hell-fire/
"PUNISHMENT FOR NOT GOING TO JIHAD AND KILLING KUFFAR IS HELL FIRE"

PDF 65 KB
http://schnellmann.org/essential_files/PDF-Documents/_PUNISHMENT_FOR_NOT_GOING_TO_JIHAD_AND_KILLING_KUFFAR_IS_HELL_FIRE.pdf

It is like building a memorial of the SS and "Adolf Nazi" beside Auschwitz or Buchenwald

I'm in and signed -- can't pass up a good "put up or shut up" challenge like that.

Check out all the creepy Rauf & Daisy dhimmi-groupies who are trolling the petition with comments that "they [SIOA] don't really mean it!" Oh, the irony.

It would also be nice if we could get some of those Muslims who email Pam sympathizing about how hurtful this is to start their own damn petition. A full-page open letter in the NYT calling on Rauf & Daisy to cease and desist would go a long way towards restoring some confidence in the existence of "moderate Muslims".

Not holding my breath. See you at the sit-ins.

Good. Keeping calling this jackass at his bluff, exposing him for the duplicitous liar that he is. Shine the light of day on this turd.

WOW... So you all are thinking so wrong about Islam as it is... Why won't you start researcing more about Islam than sitting here and insulting for what it has nothing to do with Islam religion. I hate those Talibans and Wahabist as you do.. They make such a bad and awful image about Islam or Muslims and kill so many people with no reason..

If you think that you are so great why do you have so many phidolphelism, homosexualism alcoholism, pornography, criminalism, murderer over a cell phone (If you watch any local news)youth pregnancy, aids and etc. What would you consider that as being a "Good" Christian???? If I take in general to think just like you without having any knowledge about Chris, I would have just the same image about it as you do about Islam.

If all Muslims are terrorist, you wouldn't have any Muslims around you just passing without having a bomb inside them. I have the same rights to worship God and go to pray as you do. I DO NOT have to sit at home and lock up myself because of majority of Americans think about Muslims the other way.

Is this America that a symbol of a freedom??? So we have to suffer because of some stupid terrorists do that has nothing to do with Islam.

Why not name it: "The Geert Wilders Mosque". That would be a fair compromise.

WOW... So you all are thinking so wrong about Islam as it is... Why won't you start researcing more about Islam than sitting here and insulting for what it has nothing to do with Islam religion.

ZIZO my boy...every kufr posting here has done their Islamic homework...Most of these posters know more about Islam than you do...

Call me a pessimist but I don't believe Pamela's well-intentioned letter is going to have the least effect on this sleazy Rauf and lying Daisy.

No, unfortunately, what may be expected is that the fate of this ill-advised "mosque" will be some outraged American flying a plane into this monstrosity or setting off a bomb there. They can't expect this plan will go on without a bad ending, if so they are sorely underestimating the scope of revulsion that so many feel about this planned inyourface insult.

Zizo is saying what Hizb ut-Tahrir are saying: Wew Muslims will not be the kind of Muslims the West expects us to be, ie tame and mild. We will be what we want to be, what Mohammed wants ie public, all-encompassing, political, not private.
It always amazes me the way so many Muslims portray their people as being saints - no murder, no crime, no pornography, etc. And they remarkably have no "phidolphelism" either, whereas the West is swimming in it, much to our eternal shame.

Hey all, I'm sure this isn't a new idea, but I think it could be very effective in undermining Islam and turning public opinion against it. I think it would be most effective in public debates on the opening up of new mosques, but it could be used in various situations.

Anyway, it's pretty simple:

1. Establish that Mohammed is the guide for mankind for ALL TIMES. Make certain the Muslim in question admits that there's no room for moral relativism in Islam. If he admits that the example of Mohammed is every bit as valid in the 21st century as it was in the 7th century, you're good to go.

2. Establish that the Quran is the most authentic book in Islam followed by the hadith collections of Sahih Muslim and Sahih Bukhari. This is a common part of Islamic theology, so it should be easy to get them to admit to this.

3. Once that has been established, bring up verses from the quran and hadiths from Sahih Muslim and Sahih Bukhari that express support for child rape, slavery and wife abuse.

4. Force them to either admit they believe it's morally acceptable in the year 2010 for grown men to have sex with nine year old children, beat their wives, enslave other men, or admit that Mohammed's example is no longer valid in the 21st century.

5. It's going to be hard to get them to admit to this, so it's up to the audience to force them to answer the questions.

6. If they admit that it's morally acceptable to have sex with children, beat women, enslave other men, you're good to go. Public opinion will turn.

I've provided a few examples that I came up with on the SIOA Facebook page.

http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=110841015612178&topic=278

If they're good, please use them. If they need refinement, please refine them.

We can eliminate Islam not only in America, but throughout the world. Keep fighting, everyone.

I love that SIOA is scraping the trolls off the petition. Of course, now some of my comment won't make much sense but what the heck.

ZISO: If you are in America, go home to whatever Islam-infested rock you crawled out from under. If you are home, stay there. If you think we are so terrible, why do you claim to hate the Taliban? Read your Krayon, ZISO. Allah orders you to hate and kill the Infidels. The Taliban are just doing what your moon-god orders. We are sick of having to explain that to people about their own religion because they prefer to stay blind to what it really teaches.

Feisal Abdul Rauf strikes me not as determinedly fanatical but, rather, as a schemer interested in making money for himself. He can already see himself making the rounds in Saudi Arabia and the rest of the Gulf, raising the $100 million dollars he has chosen as a round sum for that Muslim structure, and of course with sums like that, then he (and his wife) would have to be paid, for their efforts, an amount commensurate with the expense for the project. One million dollars? Two million? Five? It would be interesting to find out what even some fellow Muslims think of him, and of what is his primary motivation for this project. It's no consolation for us if his main interest is his cut, after all. For it's the same building, the same mosque, goes up in the same hideously-inappapropriate place, and for the financiers in the Gulf, it's all about establishing a triumphalist beachhead right by the site where thousands of non-Muslims suffered from an atrocity, an attack by Muslims prompted by what Islam had inculcated and that they had acted upon in a way they though fitting. No, it's still an intolerable thing, and Feisal Abdul Rauf's eye on the main chance should not for one minute ease the fury and the anguish.

Over on Bunglawussi Watch they already got your number:

"The rabid Islamophobia displayed by individuals like Pamela Geller, Robert Spencer, and many individuals who have made alarming statements about Islam and Muslims is filtering down through American society."

Over at The American Muslim Sheila Musaji expresses concerns about the mainstreaming of anti-Muslim bigotry in the US.

http://www.islamophobia-watch.com/islamophobia-watch/2010/6/27/islamophobia-no-longer-even-questioned.html

"So we have to suffer because of some stupid terrorists do that has nothing to do with Islam."

lol. Bug off, Mohammedan.

Listen to Leonard Peikoff on the Ground Zero mosque. It's the 'Featured Question' on his site.

http://www.peikoff.com/

ZISO: "If you think that you are so great then why do you have so many (names his favorite ills of Western society...)"


Now I have a question for you, ZISO:

If you think that we're so bad...then WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING HERE?

And here's another one for you: All those societal problems you proudly listed? How many of those are MANDATED by any religion?

You're right; we have problems of our own to deal-with. We don't need yours. Go play in traffic and take Faisal and Daisy with you...

Signed, with comment. Oh some of the comments are just great! Worth reading through.

A Ground Zero mosk would be nothing less than a desecration, a violation, a profanation, of the hallowed Ground of 9/11.

Which is EXACTLY what these two hucksters - the imam and his slave - desire.

Huckster: "One who uses aggressive, showy, and sometimes devious methods to promote or sell a product."

Oh - it's all in the name of "tolerance."

Yeah right. It's in the name of "conquest" and you know it.

Muslim Hucksters - that's all they are.

"If you think that you are so great why do you have so many phidolphelism, homosexualism alcoholism, pornography, criminalism, murderer over a cell phone (If you watch any local news)youth pregnancy, aids and etc."

At least in the West they still have their heads attached. Do you think that Imams don't engage in pedophilia? I assume that (phidolphelism) is your spelling of the word pedophilia because it is not found in the dictionary.

http://www.silobreaker.com/us-terror-group-cair-makes-excuses-for-imam-who-molested-boy-5_2263525324635504640

Do you believe Muslims aren't looking at pornography?

http://www.ijtema.net/2007/08/20/pornography-addiction-amoung-muslims/

Or drinking alcohol?

http://makkah.wordpress.com/2007/11/22/young-muslim-professionals-drinking-alcohol/

Terrorists follow the Koran, verbatim.

Now be careful stepping off that soapbox.

More progressive architectural ideas for the GZ Mosque (or "The Geert Wilders Mosque"):
To be even more convincingly tolerant and accomodating:
1) Dedicate a "Robert Spencer Reading Room" as a sort of alternative point-of-view library.
2) In the basement, stock "The Hugh Fitzgerald Lounge", with malts and vintages for the infidel tippler. Scatter Hugh's essays on the tables.
3) Exhibits in "The Bosch Fawstin Gallery" would serve as a light-hearted and irreverant nod to the visual arts.
Oh, yes we can.

Thanks for the heads up yer'mami, in typical islamic fashion their site and posts reflect no originality, they mimic the JW format, their statements are not substantiated, they censor any disent and disallow free expression and comments. It would all be very comical if not for the tragedy of the ultimate death and destruction which results form the brainwashing they may never break free from.

ZISO,

You are correct. I have no knowledge of Chris. Nor did I know that that, specifically, caused my image of Islam. Thanks.

Here's another great link from PI, on how Mohammedanism destroyed the French soccer team:

http://www.pi-news.net/2010/06/was-der-islam-aus-ribery-anelka-und-co-machte/

Unfortunately its in German, but right on the money.

Could someone translate?

Hey lilrebird. Do you know who Talibans are????

Hang this info in your beautiful ears and DO NOT forget!

The Wahabis advertise their form of Islam as the "purest form", but the huge majority of Muslims consider them to be extremist fundementalisms and the Taliban to be militant extremist fundamentalist!

Wahhabis are miniscule part of Islam. they are anti-Sufi and anti Shi-i (look up what theymean, if you don't know).

Michael Sells (professor of religion at the University of Chicago) explains the fame of Wahabismin one of his lecture: imagine the seventeeth-century witch hunting world of Salem, Massachussetts. Imagine that Salem suddenly discovered itself to be sitting on an oil field, swimming in riches. Imagine further that the community of Salem fortuitous happened to control the most sacred Christian holy sites in the world. Finally imagine that Salem allied itself with the only superpower left on the earth. It would be conclude, in the face of all these factors, that the witch hunting world of Salem, Massachusetts was representative of-perhaps even the purest form of-Christianity!

All these factors would combine to give Salem dispropriate and inaccurately large exposure to the rest of the world. So we might conclude that witch hunts were the purest Christianity, as were burnings at the stake and tests of witchcraft by drowning. Finally we might conclude that the witch hunters represented mainstream Christianity or even, perhaps the true message of Christianity.

Now substitute the Saudi Wahhabi offshot of Islam for Salem in the example, and substitute Islam for Christianity. The result is an accurate descrp. of the Saudi Wahhabis and why they erroneously seem to represent mainstream Islam.

Wahabism is NOT a new version of Islam-it has been around for several centuries but only became prevalent in Arabian penensula in the mid-eighteenth century, when the politically powerful al-Sa'ud family became Wahhabi. Thus was a culture born of a fusion between socially conservative Arabian culture and strict, conservative religion.

After Abd-al-Aziz ibn Sa'ud formally proclaimed S.A. in 1932, Wahhabism became state religion. Even then, it was only after 1970s, when oil money began to flow to S.A. that Wahhabism began to spread. Since S.A. has wealth, controls Mecca and the Ka'ba and allies itself with the US (or vice versa), Wahhabism seems to embodiment of Islam to you all. Why am I saying that, because most Americans think that
S.A. is "Central Islam" or "the place where purestform of Islam practiced".

Finally Talibans are radical, militant Wahhabis. You probably know (if you so y'all so smart esp.duh_swami about Islam and know more than me) that Talibans destroyed of Buddha and Buddhist artifacts. BUT!! the Talibans also destroyed Islamic artifacts (Ismaili, Shi'i and Sufi artifacts wre all destroyed)! They nearly destroyed the tomb of the Prophet, as well.

The Saudis and Talibans loom large in our perseptions of Islam cuz they have calculated itthat way. Whereas the Saudis used their money, the Taliban and the attackers of the World Trade Center purposefully used the media to build their image. For instance, Taliban invited western media to afghanistan to watch them shockingly destroy buddhist artifacts. Similarly, the 9/11 attacks were coordinated so that all tvs cameras would be trained securely on the destruction of the first tower when the second plane crashed.

The Wahhabis, the Talibans and Bin Laden are all connected in that they all come basically from the same mold-the conservative, ultraextremist fundamentalist Wahhabi mold that is tightly interwoven with the conservative culture of the Arabian peninsula with pots of money and control over holy sites and exposure in the media.

Anyways, there is LOTS of information to read. I'm not going to explain you about Islam. You are already HATERS of Muslims. You wouldn't even try to see the truth even if we would hand it to you. I do not know, what am I trying to do here. It is just sad how you see everyting in a different way.

About going back home. Youare not in charge of this country to tell me what to do and how to live. In fact I am American and this is my country too!

ZIZO my boy...every kufr posting here has done their Islamic homework...Most of these posters know more about Islam than you do...

Kufr??? Is that that youknow more than me? First of all look up what word "kufr" means. If y'all kufrs (which means atheist) than I'm definitely addressing to wrong people. So you don't have any belief and faith? Whom do you believe in, Devil?

Whoa! TROLL ALERT PEOPLE! *MUSLIM TROLL ALERT*

No, Mohammedan, actually it's YOU Muslims who worship the Devil.

"allah" is Satan and Muhammed" is his demon, perdition be upon them.

Anyways, there is LOTS of information to read. I'm not going to explain you about Islam. You are already HATERS of Muslims. You wouldn't even try to see the truth even if we would hand it to you. I do not know, what am I trying to do here. It is just sad how you see everyting in a different way.

We are not 'haters of muslims'. We hate islam because it turns so many muslims into psychotic, homicidal monsters and because it is a mortal threat to our safety and our way of life. We don't need for you to explain islam to us; we have all studied it long and hard and we understand it very well. Muslims do not want non-muslims to understand islam because they know they will be despised, feared, and isolated, and an educated populace will not allow islam's nefarious agenda to proceed unchallenged.

I know that you, a muslim, think that non-muslims are incapable of understanding islam either because they don't speak Arabic (neither do the majority of muslims) or because only the pure of heart, true believers can fully comprehend islam's mysterious, esoteric, secret dogma which espouses hate, perpetual war, intolerance, supremacy, world domination, totalitarianism, misogyny, polygamy, and many other barbaric, archaic, and malevolent beliefs that are repugnant and threatening to civilized people. But you are wrong. Islam is quite easy to understand but impossible to condone. It is antithetical to our values, our government, our religions, our laws, our morals, and our way of life. We are tolerant, generous people but we will not sit silently and allow imperialistic, uncivilized, third-world tribal savages to invade our country, challenge our legal system, and try to impose their heterodox, medieval death cult on us. Sorry! We don't hate islam because we don't understand it; we hate it because we do.

The problem with Geller's plea -- and with all opposition to the Ground Zero Mosque -- is that this mosque is a mainstream Islamic mosque. Opposition to it necessarily implies opposition to mainstream Islam -- the same mainstream Islam which Imam Rauf follows and which the mosque will embody.

When Geller says in her open letter that the mosque would cause "unbearable pain" to Americans, she is implicitly saying that Islam itself causes "unbearable pain" to Americans. The fact that she doesn't say this explicitly, and does not argue that explicit claim, tends to undermine the whole message and render it incoherent.

According to the prevailing script throughout the West, Islam itself is not a problem -- it is only the small minority of extremists who are the problem because they are putatively misintrepreting Islam. Thus this mosque, representing mainstream Islam, should not be a problem. So why is it a problem? Why does an institution representing mainstream Islam present a problem to the 911 site? Certainly, a mosque that had ties to al Qaeda would be a problem. But this mosque represents, apparently, mainstream Islam. The anti-Ground Zero Mosque spokespersons have not directly addressed why mainstream Islam is an affront to the memory of 911.

This whole anti-Ground Zero Mosque affair seems to persistently avoid the obvious issue of Islam itself, and dances between implying that Islam is an affront to Ground Zero, but never explicitly saying so or presenting an argument to support that.

Unless the anti-Ground Zero Mosque can find a smoking gun linking Rauf to some tiny minority of extremists through some connection to some terrorist group, it has to stop wavering incoherently between 1) the insinuation that Rauf is terrorist; and 2) the implication that it doesn't matter because if he's Muslim, that by itself should be grounds for keeping him out of Ground Zero.

"Islam is quite easy to understand"

In "The Story of the Malakand Field Force," Churchill refers to Islam as "the religion of blood and war."

And that is what it is.

The Religion of Blood and War.

Not much else to it except a moon god thrown in so 'ol Mo could claim religious status for his bloodthirsty "Kill the Infidels" pernicious and poisonous political ideology.

Oh, well, it's all just those damn Wahhabis' fault! All those OTHER muslims are nice, peaceful folks. It's that isolated handful of BAD muslims with their man-caused disasters. If only we understood islam we would've KNOWN that. Thank you so much for clearing that up!

Bartender! Another Taqiyya Sunrise over here, stat!

"Bartender! Another Taqiyya Sunrise over here, stat!"

lol, that's a good one!

And to think I'd never heard of the Arabic word "Taqiyya" until about the year 2006. Wish I'd never had to. Don't we all.

And it's interesting how that moon god plays second fiddle to Mo, isn't it? Mo's driving Islam and the "whatever god" of "convenience" is in the back seat, and he's not even helping out with directions!

In fact, the moon god isn't even in the back seat; it's just Mo. But you know he gave his "word" that Allah was real and the revelations were genuine, so that should be the end of the argument, right?

Islam, under the same kind of scrutiny afforded to Judaism and Christianity in the past, completely falls apart. That's why they're so sensitive about non-muslims scrutinizing it.

They probably have a hard enough time with MUSLIMS scrutinizing it and asking pointed questions. In fact I know they do.

ZISO castigates the Wahhabis and the Taliban; his comment that Wahhabis are anti-Sufi and anti-Shi (i.e. Shi'ite) strongly suggests that he, ZISO, is, himself, a Shi'ite and/or a Sufi. Thus, one is expected to infer from this that Shi'a Islam and Sufism represent True (and therefore good, benevolent) Islam, as opposed to Wahhabism and the Taliban, which represent False, Bad Islam. ZISO hopes that the kafirs - the despised Jews, Christians, and Hindus, in particular - who read his apologia can still be made to believe that his brand of Islam - Shi'a, Sufism, whatever - is the Rightly Guided Islam, versus the corrupted, Erroneous Islam of the Taliban and the Saudi followers of al-Wahhab. Well, sorry, ZISO. We know better. We know that all of this is a distinction without a difference. All of these stripes of Islam, yours or theirs, mandate the dominance of Islam, the subjugation of non-Muslims, and the implementation of Shari'a throughout the globe to ensure and perpetuate Muslim supremacy. All of these stripes of Islam mandate that Islam be spread by its followers through jihad, which includes, but is not limited to, armed struggle. Some of the most prominent Sufis, such as al-Ghazali, were strong believers of Holy War, of armed struggle against the infidel. And where is the epicenter of Shi'a Islam? Peaceful, benevolent Shi'a Islam? Why, Iran, of course, racing to develop a nuclear arsenal that can reach not only Israel, but all of Europe and beyond - Iran, whose nuclear aspirations are motivated not only by hatred of the non-Muslim Other but, even more importantly, perhaps, by an apocalyptic desire to bring about the return of the Twelfth Imam, who will, as the result of a nuclear holocaust, climb out of the well in which he has been hiding for centuries and herald the End Times, when Issa will also reappear, break the cross, kill the pig, abolish jizya, and uphold the supremacy of Muhammed as the Seal of the Prophets. And we know, do we not, ZISO, that while all of this is going on, seventy thousand Jews from Isfahan will join with the Dajjal in fighting Issa and the Muslims, but the miserable Jews will meet with ignominious defeat, and will hide behind rocks and trees, to no avail, as the rocks and trees cry out to reveal the Jews' presence to the Muslims.
Ah, peaceful Sufism. Ah, peaceful Shi'a Islam.

I was amazed at Pamela's tact and diplomacy.
That was one of the best petition appeals I have ever read.

WTG Pamela!

How much Saudi money is behind that mosque? Follow the money trail. It will determine whether or not this mosque is built. American anguish and pain will have no effect, they don't care about us. Saudi's money rules. Sad state of affairs in America.

I'm so sick of arrogant mohammadans in MY country, telling ME I have to learn about THEIR religion! How about, if they want to live here, THEY learn what being an American is about? Of course they won't--but if they did--if they really thought like Americans-- they'd understand our loathing for everything
about islam. But they tell us that they're Americans, "just like us." Right, and I'm the freaking King of England!

Yep, as soon as you sounded the troll-alert warning I mixed an icy-cold Taqiyya Sunrise--just the prefect antidote for muslim gobbledygook!

I have the same rights to worship God and go to pray as you do. I DO NOT have to sit at home and lock up myself because of majority of Americans think about Muslims the other way....

Thank You zizo. Allow me to introduce my nabific self self. I, nabi ZK (pbum), am the true nabi of mohametan trolls. Thus I am your true nabi.

To Proceed:

You are absolutely correct that in America you have every right to peacefully practice your religion and any interference in that is criminal under our law. Please do not lock yourself away since it does not matter what people think. You are you and you are not Bin Laden. (The nabi assumes here that you are not Osama posting from your remote cave hideout)

So we have to suffer because of some stupid terrorists do that has nothing to do with Islam.......

Your true nabi respectfully disagrees with you on this point. I believe that the bad guys are motivated by what some people call Islam. (The nabi refers to this religion, so called, as mohametanism. But that is another story) Your nabi appreciates that you do not consider the actions of bad guys to be within the scope of acceptable mohametan behavior and as well the name Islam, to you, represents something pure and perfect, the correct religion, the correct way to approach God, etc. As such, your nabi understands that it is inconceivable to you that Islam could inspire anything evil or destructive.

Your nabi commends you on this human approach to relations. However please do read the manifestos of the terrorists. In their own words they state their grievances and their motivations. It's always dusted with Qur'anic verses to make their points.

Thus again, I nabi ZK (pbum), accept no substitutes, respectfully disagree with your assesment that the terrs are not inspired and motivated by what they understand to be Islam.

nabi ZK (pbum)

Reply to part of commonsense's post --

You wrote - (The Iranian leadership has)..."an apocalyptic desire to bring about the return of the Twelfth Imam, who will, as the result of a nuclear holocaust, climb out of the well in which he has been hiding for centuries and herald the End Times, when Issa will also reappear, break the cross, kill the pig, abolish jizya, and uphold the supremacy of Muhammed as the Seal of the Prophets."


CS, I'm an atheist, not a Christian, and certainly not a believer in "The End Times" as many Moslems and Christians do. (I am not assuming this is what you believe by the way.) But it does sound eerily like the idea of the Devil coming up from some Hell beneath the ground and leading Muslim armies. And that part about Jesus taking their side and proclaiming Muhammed as the A#1 prophet of all time, well, I'm sure Ol' Mo just threw that one in there for his own benefit. :-D

Also, ... HOORAY for Pam Geller !! Keep there feet to the fire darlin', we're behind you 100% !

"I hate those Talibans and Wahabist as you do.. They make such a bad and awful image about Islam or Muslims and kill so many people with no reason.."

Oh realllllly ...last I checked muhammad (perdition is upon him) was a murdering sob, too; so it seems that ole mo has given islam a bad image as well.

Hey your prophet is a perverted pedophile, mass-murdering psychotic blowhard who's rotting in hell right now. But that doesn't bother you, now does it? I mean the truth about muhammad doesn't bother you, DOES IT?! Of course not, cause you're waaaay better than the Taliwackers, right? Right!

Sheik

you observed, above, re an Islamic site:

'Over on Bunglawussi Watch they already got your number:

'"The rabid Islamophobia displayed by individuals like Pamela Geller, Robert Spencer, and many individuals who have made alarming statements about Islam and Muslims is filtering down through American society."

'Over at The American Muslim Sheila Musaji expresses concerns about the mainstreaming of anti-Muslim bigotry in the US...". END QUOTE.

Oho. That is **interesting**.

'rabid Islamophobia...is filtering down through American society'...there is a 'mainstreaming of anti-Muslim bigotry in the US'...

If the Muslims are starting to get hysterical like that - if they really do think that the once-so -easily-fooled American Infidels are getting suspicious - then maybe something *is* starting to shift, down at ground level.

I do not like associating Muslims with anything as sweetly benign and funny as A A Milne's books. Nevertheless it is Winnie-the-Pooh's attempted honey-stealing expedition, in the first chapter of 'Winnie the Pooh', of which I am reminded. Just a small part thereof.

"Hallo!"

"I think the bees *suspect* something!"

"What sort of thing?"

"I don't know. But something tells me that they're *suspicious*!"

http://www.faithfreedom.org/op-ed/kashmir-propagation-of-islam-and-terror-of-the-sufis/#hide

Kashmir: Propagation of Islam and Terror of the Sufis


http://satyameva-jayate.org/2009/12/18/sufi-minaret-jihadi-mindset/


Muslims and islamic followers can go to any extent to lie and cheat..
Hope the suifs concept is clear from the links

To know Islam, just notice that they treat their women and un-believers like crap and frequently kill them for no reason other than mindless hatred.

The religion is just pure evil.

As for the Sufis(not the phony Idris Shah variety) - they are Muslim fanatics for the most part and no friends of the West. They have frequently been involved with the Chechen terrorist operations. El Ghazali in his book the "Alchemy of Happiness" promoted war against unbelievers, keeping women stupid and beaten down and admitted that the only decent Muslims were those that just converted and that the ones who were long time Muslims were a pretty sorry lot.

Halj Bektashi(founder of the Bektashi order) came up with the grotesque idea of kidnapping young christian boys and brainwashing to become fanatical soldiers for the Ottoman Empire(Janissaries). Once let lose on the enemy they took no prisoners, they raped(men, women and children) and pillaged even worse than the regular Ottoman forces.

Lastly even mainstream Muslims are disowning the Sufis, they are seen by more and more as Bida. And there have been several prominent Sufis who have admitted as much.


The disparate differences among all the Moslem sects should be exploited to the fullest extent. Let the Moslems kill each other, (It's what they have always done though out history).
Every effort must be made to make sure this happens. The civilized world needs to exploit and weaken the camp of Islam. And it would not be hard to do.

Nuff said...........

In fact I am American and this is my country too!

A woman is your wife only if she calls you herhusband.
America is yours only if you are America's.

Quisling was a Norwegian not less than you are an American and Norway shot him. And Rosenbergs were American and America fried them.

Go and ask America who you are. If you don't hear clear "traitor rat" - check your ears.

Zizo... does the taqquiya never end?

Pederasty? Approved by islame and "dewy-eyed boys" awaiting the men as their personal "servants.

Pornography? You people are the biggest buyers out there! Not to mention the videos I saw of some prominent Afghani doctor and his partner raping their women patients... But I shudder to think Heaven is a place where "rains of sperm" will come down and I am watched while having sex with my owner, that's really perverted pornography if you ask me.

Homosexuality? It's considered the "norm" over there in those islamist facist states since contact with women is completely prohibited.

Pedophilia? Practiced on a daily basis in the Middle East, sanctioned by the "prophet-eer moe" who married a 6 year old Aisha and "consummated" her at 9. I say consummated because that's the euphemism you islamists like. More likely it was rape and molestation, since I don't believe for one moment that any 9 year old girl ENJOYS sex at that tender age!

Criminalism? I don't suppose slavery and FGM rate as crimes to you since women are worth less than half of a man. But that's islame for you.

Murder? Also practiced on a daily basis in the middle east. Against women, Christians, and kuffars. But that doesn't rank in your islamo-world.

Let's end on a nice note though. Burkas for burros is a good idea:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wC-lwbxSYKs

Oh yeah, don't forget you have to kill the donkey afterwards. You can't eat it, but you sure can sell it to your neighbors!

Good gambit. The enemy will not, of course, foreswear his 9/11 mosque offensive. Under his doctrine, they are the best, we are the worst, and we must be subdued:

Qur'an 3:110: Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah.

Qur'an 98:6: Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures.

Qur'an 9:29: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

"Hallo!"

"I think the bees *suspect* something!"

"What sort of thing?"

"I don't know. But something tells me that they're *suspicious*!"
------------
How incredibly apt, DDA! It almost boils it right (I won't say "down") up to the level of an "Animal Farm."

That's what the world needs right now...an Islamic "Animal Farm."

What shall it be called? How about "Goat, Goat on the Grange?"

The Cordoba Islamic Center is not about the community it claims to serve, but about backroom deals, keeping promises, and honoring commitments.

It is about wooing the American elite at places like the Aspen Institute, the Council on Foreign Relations and the World Economic Forum.

Saturday December 6, 2008 Clinton: Malaysia a role model

KUALA LUMPUR: Bill Clinton has expressed admiration for Malaysians, saying that their ability to respect other people’s faiths should be emulated by all.
The former US president said the world would be a better place if it emulated Malaysia’s harmony and social tolerance.
http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2008/12/6/nation/2739821&sec=nation

Bill Clinton Speech in Malaysia Irks Investors

Former President Bill Clinton visited Malaysia on Friday to deliver his first paid speech since his wife, Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton, was selected Monday by President-elect Barack Obama to be secretary of state.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/06/us/politics/06clinton.html


Following a closed-door meeting between Imam Feisal Abdul-Rauf, Prime Minister Badawi of Malaysia, former US President Bill Clinton and former US Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, the Cordoba Initiative brought together passionate members and supporters of the organization to ponder the next steps forward for the multi-faith organization and how it can serve the imminent need to build strong links between the schism of Muslim and Western communities.

Attendees included Klaus Schwab, Edgar Bronfman, Kathleen Lacey, Bradley Hirschfield, James Hoge, Farooq Kathwari, John Mroz, Katherine Marshall, R. Leslie Deak, Samia Farouki, Abulhuda Farouki, Julia Jitkoff, Sherif El Diwany, Rabbi Israel Singer, Moshira Soliman, Kashif Zafar, John Bennett, Ramzi Khoury and Daisy Khan.
http://www.asmasociety.org/news/events.pdf

1. Brad Hirschfield [ has addressed audiences at the Aspen Institute, and the Islamic Society of North America ]
“Recognized as one of the nation's leading Preachers and Teachers by Beliefnet.com, he conceived and hosts a landmark interfaith TV series entitled Building Bridges: Abrahamic Perspectives on the World Today, airing on Bridges TV, (American Muslim TV Network). ”
http://www.bradhirschfield.com/author.html

2. Edgar Bronfman, Jr. [CFR]
“Edgar Miles Bronfman, Jr. (born May 16, 1955), formerly CEO of Seagram and vice-chairman of Vivendi Universal, has been CEO of Warner Music Group since 2004. He is the son of Edgar Miles Bronfman and the grandson of Samuel Bronfman, patriarch of one of the wealthiest and most influential Jewish families in Canada.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_Bronfman,_Jr.
http://www.cfr.org/about/membership/roster.html?letter=B

3. Israel Singer
“On March 14th, 2007 Singer was dismissed by the president of the WJC Edgar M. Bronfman.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Singer

4. James F. Hoge, Jr. [CFR]
“Hoge began his journalistic career as a Washington correspondent for the Chicago Sun-Times in 1958, a publication he eventually served as editor in chief and publisher. In 1984, he left and was appointed president and publisher of the New York Daily News. The Sun-Times won six Pulitzer Prizes during his tenure there, and the Daily News won one during his presidency.
After, in 1991, being awarded a fellowship at the John F. Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University, he was appointed editor of Foreign Affairs in 1992, replacing William G. Hyland and remains in that position today.
He is currently a director of Human Rights Watch and the Foundation for a Civil Society, and is the chairman of the International Center for Journalists.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_F._Hoge,_Jr.


5. “Kathleen Lacey Hoge; the editor of Reader’s Digest” [wife of James]
http://www.newyorksocialdiary.com/node/3059

6. John Bennett [Aspen]
“John S. Bennett – Co-founder and Executive Director of the Cordoba”
“In 2001, Bennett retired from his position as vice president of the Aspen Institute.”
“In 1999, Bennett completed his fourth term as Mayor of Aspen, Colorado.”
http://www.cordobainitiative.org/who_we_are.html

7. Julia Jitkoff [ friend of Bush Sr. ]
“As a former trustee, she now advises the Cordoba Initiative. Ms. Jitkoff is an artist working in watercolor and bronze and an engaged philanthropist. She is also a private investor and director of a small foundation.”
http://www.cordobainitiative.org/board.html
http://www.entrepreneur.com/tradejournals/article/164160654.html

8. Kashif Zafar
“Kashif Zafar is a Managing Director and Head of European Rates Sales at Barclays Capital.
http://www.americanpakistan.org/board_of_directors.php

9. Katherine Marshal [CFR]
Columnist for Washington Post
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/georgetown/2010/03/stephen_heinz_president_of_the.html.

10. Farooq Kathwari [CFR]
“American born son of Ethan Allen furniture tycoon Farooq Kathwari, was killed fighting Jihad in Afghanistan”
http://www.militantislammonitor.org/article/id/597


12. R. Leslie Deak “Private Investments and Consulting on Middle East Business and Issues at Bittachon Holdings, Inc”

“At the same time, however, Deak [father of Leslie] was running into trouble with the Government. In March 1978 Deak & Co. was convicted by a federal court and fined $20,000 on charges of failing to report $11 million in large currency transactions by two Philippine businessmen. Then in October 1984 the President's Commission on Organized Crime charged that the firm had been involved in a multimillion-dollar laundering operation for international drug dealers. Early this year the Treasury Department handed down a $572,000 civil penalty against a Deak subsidiary in connection with the drug-money case.”
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1074802-1,00.html

13. Ramzi Khoury, CEO, Strategy Falcons LLC
“Ramzi Khoury is a special advisor to Mahmoud Abbas, president of the Palestinian Authority.. He is based in Ramallah, West Bank. ”
http://www.globalexpertfinder.org/category/media/page/2

"Currently based in Malaysia with extensive travel in the Middle East and Europe Khoury advices governments and private sector organizations on Perception Management with focus on issues related to politics and religion including the divide between the Muslim World and the West and is active with several non-government organizations.
Before Malaysia he was based in Saudi Arabia, UAE, Palestine, Jordan, USA and the UK in order.”
http://www.arabisto.com/BlogSection/Blogs/Ramzi_Khoury/32

14. Sherif El Diwany World Economic Forum
Director, Head of Middle East
http://www.weforum.org/en/about/Our%20Organization/LeadershipTeam/index.htm#diwany

15. Mrs. Samia Farouki [Aspen connection thru “Farouki speaker series“]
“Ms. Farouki is the Founder and CEO of HAIFinance Corporation, a global investment company. She originates and oversees a diverse investment portfolio consisting of controlling positions in several prominent U.S. manufacturing and service companies that conduct business around the world. Mrs. Farouki is a member of the Board of Directors of Vital Voices, a global partnership that supports women's progress in building democracies, strong economies and peace. She is an Executive Board member of the Lab School of Washington, D.C., a board member of the Folger Shakespeare Library, the Washington Opera and the Corcoran Gallery of Art. Mrs. Farouki is a founding Co-Chairperson of the Arab American Cultural Foundation and a member of the Khalil Gibran Foundation. Mrs. Farouki holds degrees from the American University of Beirut, Lebanon and George Washington University in Washington, D.C.”
http://www.cordobainitiative.org/board.html

16. Mr. Abul Huda Farouki
“FIIC Chairman and CEO Mr. Abul Huda Farouki Participates in Clinton Global Initiative's 2009 Annual Meeting “
http://www.prweb.com/releases/2009/10/prweb3019134.htm

“Making a business out of Palestine's struggle”
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article11002.shtml


17. Klaus Schwab
Founder and Executive Chairman of the World Economic Forum.
http://www.weforum.org/en/about/Our%20Organization/LeadershipTeam/index.htm#diwany


When can more petitions, similar to this, be established for sending to the non-muslim audience. More support is needed to make people aware of Islam and the Koran. I am guessing that there are tens of thousands who read these articles worldwide. However, the responses simply remain on that page while having very little impact on its readers or any others with the same views. Only the ones with knowledge of this website can be fully aware of the serious and eminent dangers that lie ahead.

While trying to gain support for protecting the borders of Arizona from illegal immigration, I sent over a dozen "signed petitions"(via the internet) that were sent to Senators, Representatives, Mayors, Governors, etc. The procedure apparently proved to be successful, at least for now.

Can someone possibly recommend what I can do to help? I came across this website by accident and now I am fully immersed in it, along with books by Robert Spencer and similar authors. What can be done to inform more Americans of this problem?

Zipo is probably away licking his wounds by not but just in case...

Zippy...'Kufr??? Is that that youknow more than me? First of all look up what word "kufr" means. If y'all kufrs (which means atheist...'.

Yes my boy, I did look it up long before you showed up...It means 'dis-belief', in Allah...not atheism, the word atheism is not used in Bukhari hadith to describe ' kufr ...

Bukhari lists it as a 'land' twice, 'heathenism' once, an dis-belief '11' times...That's not atheism, unless you erroneously believe that Allah/Mahound are the only real gods...but of course that is what you believe, so to you all kufr are atheists, even Christians who are not atheists...

So the question is, should I believe Bukhari or Zippo...a no brainer...


ZISO sez:

"I have the same rights to worship God and go to pray as you do. I DO NOT have to sit at home and lock up myself because of majority of Americans think about Muslims the other way."


In many Muslim dominated countries surviving Christians are essentially forced to pray in secret, being fearful of Muslim attack squads should the openly pray in their Churches...The Christians essentually do have to lock themselves up because the Muslim majority seek to destroy them.
The Muslims are destroying Christian Churches, refusing building permits for new Churches, refusing to allow reconstruction and repair permits for Christian Churches.
The Muslims are kidnapping young Christian girls and forcing them to convert to Islam and to become brides for Muslim men...


It would seem your Muslim rights to pray are not the same as Christian rights to pray....

Isn't google fun?

What interesting things one finds out.

Pamela wrote: "You (Imam Rauf) and I are New Yorkers. We are Americans, first...."

I don't know about Pamela, I am a Jew first. Little doubt Mr. Rauf is a Muslim first. I would expect a faithful Christian to be a Christian first. For me, being a Jew first is a fulfillment of the First Commandment: "You shall have no other gods before Me." For one who is a Jew or a Christian first, there no conflict to being a loyal (American) citizen. Not so apparently with orthodox Islam in many instances. Identifying as Jew first does not motivate me to build a synagogue on a spot or location where Islam was defeated. We do not see this in Israel, quite unlike Islam where mosques are built at a place where Islam conquered another faith or people.

Paul

Welcome to Mr Spencer's virtual hedge school for the Resistance against Jihad and Sharia. The atmosphere here reminds me also of a kind of virtual analogue for a mixture of pub, gentlemen's club, old-fashioned coffee house and foxhole...I do not refer to it as a war bunker or tactics room, because it is open to foes as well as friends, and not all our foes show their faces: always remember, if discussing plans or tactics, that the walls, or should I say the hedges, have ears.

You remarked above that you "came across this website by accident".

Do please tell.

How *did* you stumble in here?

I recall another poster once who told us that she, or he, had in fact been doing a websearch for 'Jehovah's Witnesses' using the 'JW' acronym, when lo and behold, Jihad Watch snagged in the google trawl.

"I have the same rights to worship God and go to pray as you do. I DO NOT have to sit at home and lock up myself because of majority of Americans think about Muslims the other way."

Do you live in America? In America you do have that right...but it is not based on sharia...If you live in a Mahoundian Paradise, you may not have that right based on sharia...In America the right to worship is protected...that's why the Satanist Anton Levey could operate his San Francisco Satan worshipping church right out in the open...Try that in Iran, or Pakistan maybe...
Americans have no problem with people praying...They have a problem with religious agents blowing things up, killing injuring people and taking over wherever possible...

Ziso said:

"I have the same rights to worship God and go to pray as you do. I DO NOT have to sit at home and lock up myself because of majority of Americans think about Muslims the other way.

Is this America that a symbol of a freedom???"

Ziso, if you are a Muslim then you are, in fact, required to accept and practice Islamic or Sharia law. If you are living in the U.S. you have a problem because article 6 of the constitution states:

"This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding."

That means that there shall be on other law in the land. So how are you going to square that with your religion's insistence on Sharia? If you don't agree with Sharia then why are you still a Muslim?

As to America being a symbol of freedom we all know it is and you do too. Isn't that why, as a Muslim you've come here? To eradicate that offensive symbol and more importantly, it's reality?

NEVER APPEAL TO THE BETTER NATURE OF A MUSLIM.
They have none.

CGW syas: NEVER APPEAL TO THE BETTER NATURE OF A MUSLIM.
They have none.

This brilliant letter was specifically written to be unanswerable by a caring, sincere human being. Very clever.

when all is said and done don't forget that "mosque" in Arabic is 'masjid' the meaning of which, again in Arabic, is "place of battle". (hint, hint)

So you disagree with Geert Wilders? He says he's got nothing against Muslims; it is Islam that is the problem.

But Wikipedia says: "A mosque is a place of worship for followers of Islam. Muslims often refer to the mosque by its Arabic name, masjid (Arabic: مسجد‎ — Arabic pronunciation: [ˈmæsdʒɪd] (pl. masājid, Arabic: مساجد‎ — [mæˈsæːdʒɪd]))which literally means place of prostration...."

I read on this website called "loonwatch," the author challenged R. Spencer on the meaning of "dhimmi." He claims the term means "protected." He says Spencer claims the term also means "guilty," as in dhimmis are guilty.

To me that's like saying "It's only Nazism that's the problem, not Nazis."

Wilders has got to have some diplomacy, you know. But, I would never presume to speak for Geert Wilders, so you have to go by his own words.

Also, why do you go to "loonwatch?" Those people are nasty and evil.

You wrote: "To me that's like saying "It's only Nazism that's the problem, not Nazis." "

I would agree. When I first heard Wilders make this case, I wrote on this site, "It is Muslims who embrace Islam." Why would a non-violent person embrace a violent religious tradition (that he or she understands is a religious tradition based almost exclusively on violence), unless he or she is by nature violent?

Why did I go to loonwatch? I was doing a Google search and it came up. I was unfamiliar with the site. I read part way through a lengthy piece whereby the author challenged Spencer, not to a debate about Islam, but a debate about his contention that Christianity is and has been historically a "religion of peace." I wonder if loonwatch is connected to the loony 'Reverend' Jim Sutter, a fierce opponent of Spencer's.

This ("Christianity is a religion of peace") is an unfortunate stance on Mr. Spencer's part. Neither Judaism or Christianity are "religions of peace." Even were Christianity to reject the "Old Testament" from its canon, I suspect it still would not be a religion of peace. Today, compared to Islam, Christianity is indeed a religion of (relative) peace," but capable of immense violence nonetheless. Perhaps Buddhism and Hinduism are "religions of peace." Then again, maybe they aren't.

WJ...Today, compared to Islam, Christianity is indeed a religion of (relative) peace," but capable of immense violence nonetheless.

When was the last time 'Christianity' indulged itself in 'immense violence'? Where does it allow for that in the Christian scripture?

After a visit to loon watch it's best to run your virus scanner and take a shower...The Loonar-tic Danio showed up here and issued his challenge, and was sent away with his tail between his legs...

It depends on what you consider Christianity. Israel is a Jewish state. I consider the United States (generally speaking) a Christian nation-state. Many of America's holy days are based on Christian values, Easter, Christmas, etc. America's response to 9/11 was violent; appropriately so. America's response to Pearl Harbor and subsequent Japanese atrocities - the fire bombings of Tokyo / the nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki - was violent.

I am not arguing that a violent response to violence is not justified. Neither do I argue that terrorism in response to terrorism is not justified. The Nazis visited terror upon European cities in Poland, Rotterdam, London, Coventry, etc. The allies visited retaliatory terror (terror-bombings) on German cities. In my opinion, this was an appropriate response to Nazi atrocities and terrorism.

You wrote: "Where does it allow for that in the Christian scripture?"

Robert Spencer argues that historic Christian violence cannot be justified by means of the Christian bible or scripture. My guess is that much ancient Christian violence was justified by the "Old Testament" (the Torah, the book of Joshua, etc.) which as much Christian scripture as is the NT. I would argue that the Old Testament should not have been invoked by Christian leaders and popes as it applied to the conquest by the Israelites of a specific piece of real estate; Canaan, later Israel.

I would argue that some of the sayings allegedly spoken by Jesus in the gospels (in the sermon on the mount and elsewhere) invite a violent response from the enemies of Christianity. If Al Qaeda knew the United States (a Christian nation) would 'turn the other cheek' post 9/11, more terror and violence would surely have been visited on the US within weeks or months of the initial atrocities. Fortunately, this Christian nation (America) does not take Jesus words literally; nor did Bush take them literally. Nor does this Christian nation take the commandment to "not resist evil" - literally.

Were Americans to rely on Moses rather than Jesus, there would be few devout Muslims (those who sympathize with jihad) living in America because Moses commanded, "You shall surely purge the evil from your midst." The same holds true for modern day Israel who likewise does not listen to the words of Moses, by and large.

Correction, I wrote: My guess is that much ancient Christian violence was justified by the "Old Testament" (the Torah, the book of Joshua, etc.) which IS also Christian canon or scripture, as is the NT.

Robert Spencer argues that historic Christian violence cannot be justified by means of the Christian bible or scripture.

This is also my position...

Do you consider the OT part of Christian scripture? The apostle Paul wrote that Jews "both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us (Christians) out. They are NOT pleasing to God, but hostile to all men, hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved; with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins. But WRATH has come upon them to the utmost."

John (in his book) has Jesus allegedly cursing us, saying that we are of our father the devil. The apostle Matthew had the Jews pronouncing a collective curse down through the generations saying, Jesus' blood be on ourselves and on our children, etc.

You do not think this could lead to Christian violence?

duh_swami, I consider that much of the Christian west is (increasingly) siding with Islam against tiny Israel; the Jewish state. Have you read the news lately? Even Christian America is turning toward Islam, against Israel. Christian America elected their first Muslim-born president (who is sympathetic to the world of Islam) with deep-seated antipathy toward Israel's Jews. This is the democratically elected president of the United States. He still has considerable support in Christian America.

The prophet (Zechariah) wrote that "all" the nations will go to war against Israel in the final analysis. Do you believe Christian nations will be exempted from this "all" the nations given the fact that Christianity is joining with Islam against Israel? The Vatican is decidedly with Islam against Israel, as are many other churches in the west.

"Neither Judaism nor Christianity are "religions of peace."

Of course they are.

Islam isn't.

End of story.

Kim, what we you do with these?

'The LORD will go forth like a warrior, He will arouse His zeal LIKE A MAN OF WAR. He will utter a shout, yes, He will raise a war cry. He will prevail against His enemies.

"I have kept silent for a long time, I have kept still and restrained Myself. Now like a woman in labor I will groan, I will both gasp and pant.

"I will lay waste the mountains and hills And wither all their vegetation; I will make the rivers into coastlands And dry up the ponds....."

(Isaiah chapter 42)


"The LORD is a warrior; The LORD is His name." Exd 15:3

The accusation that the Jews are prophet-killers, a canonical belief in Islam, is found as well in Christian doctrine, as you aptly point out here. It is, I believe, quite possible that Muhammed readily borrowed this idea from the Christians with whom he may have had contact, as this belief was already part of mainstream Christianity well before the seventh century A.D. Muhammed may well have also absorbed other anti-Jewish beliefs from Christianity, such as the notion that the Jews were accursed of God and were therefore destined to be debased forever. Until a few days ago, I was unaware that early on, Christian (i.e. Catholic) doctrine established that Jews were prophet-killers, but I have, on Hugh's recommendation, been reading Malcolm Hay's book, Europe and the Jews: The pressure of Christendom over 1900 Years, where all of this, and more, can be found (see, for example, on page 26, the passage by St. Gregory of Nyssa, who lived during the fourth century). It is incontrovertible that Christianity distilled into a doctrinally anti-Jewish faith by the third century of its existence, primarily because of the way the early church fathers interpreted the gospels and other canonical texts. While I respect the efforts of both individual Christians and organizational Christianity to reinterpret such texts and expunge the anti-Jewish traditions within Christianity itself, there is still, I believe, a long way to go. I hope that no one at this website takes offense at what I am writing here, but there are, I must say, some striking parallels between traditional Christianity and classical Islam with respect to how both view Jews. And I believe this convergence is not a coincidence, but due in large part to Muhammed's co-opting the anti-Jewish beliefs and attitudes of seventh century Christianity, which served to promote his own ambitions and objectives.

Clarification: Hugh recommended Malcolm Hay's book in one of his posts, but he referred to it by its original title, The Foot of Pride. It was republished as Europe and the Jews: The Pressure of Christendom over 1900 Years, and is readily available from Amazon under that name. The original book is harder to find, and expensive.

I have often wondered about this charge that the Jews killed God's prophets. There is no record in the Bible of this mass-slaughter of God's prophets. The prophet Jeremiah, the most persecuted of the prophets after (or before) Moses, recorded the following:

"Do not be afraid of them, For I am with you to deliver you," declares the LORD..... (Jeremiah chapter 1)

"Then I will make you to this people A fortified wall of bronze; And though they fight against you, They will not prevail over you; For I am with you to save you And deliver you," declares the LORD. (Jeremiah chapter 15)

Muslims consider Jesus a prophet. In "The Complete Infidel's Guide to the Koran," in the section "The uncrucified Christ," Mr. Spencer wrote: "Muslims, on the other hand, deny the Crucifixion because, in their view, God's prophet cannot suffer defeat." (page 144)

Indeed.

I've got a link to the book at Amazon.com in my Favorites. Thanks.

I'm a little shocked. To appeal to him as an American first? Appeal to him to consider the infidel victims of jihad before Islam? Appeal to him to as a "man of the clergy" to have mercy on those he is obligated to convert at any costs? Appeal to a leader of a man(Muhammad)-made religious system of supremacy and privilege at the expense of non-believers in Islam to be fair to non-Muslims? You are asking him to either be apostate or to become more deceitful. You are asking him to enter into a hudna agreement until there is no more threat of American resistance. You know the mosque itself is an Islamic victory symbol at the expense of infidel bodies. Islam sees that as their triumph. As humans, they can feel for non-Muslims, but under Islam they are under no obligation and have to be afraid for their lives if they lift a finger to champion non-Muslims. Was the letter to expose his refusal of reasonable acomodation? Israel has tried that over and over, even handing over whole areas and already built cities. It does not work because their goal is non-Muslim submission, death, and conquest.
No, it is by our integrity and our laws that we will oppose subjugation to Sharia law. Our laws are based on the standard of reasonableness. Shariah law is based upon supremacy, privilege, and power of one group over everyone else as defined by Islam. Your campaign to educate the public and save those running from Islam is a much, much better strategy. We should be making jihad crimes hate crimes against non-Muslims, and not tolerate crimes (e.g., abusing women, murder, rape, preventing conversion from Islam, etc., etc.) in the name of Islam. As a society we should not tolerate violent jihad.

In the original (not rewritten by Muhammad in the seventh century) Bible, Jesus wept over Jerusalem calling it the city that killed the prophets. The story of the Jews were illustrative of God's relationship with all of us. It showed the spiritual, personal, and societal victories of the Jews and Christians as well as their sins and the consequences of those sins. Jews and Christians were exhorted to share the truth and their faith, and to defend themselves, but were not told to force conversions. That was something that Muhammad added, and we know the curse at the end of the Book of Revelation.

Jesus also prophesied that there would be people who would actually think they were pleasing God by killing Christians. Hmmm.

Wildjew

as regards the harsh statements about Jews (some Jews) that one finds in the Epistles and (infrequently) in the Gospels in the New Testament: one way of looking at them is to see them not as 'universal' open-ended condemnation (of all Hebrews/ Jews for all time) but as specific critiques of specific individuals or groups, in very specific places and times. And, in fact, they make much more sense when one takes them that way.

Jacques Ellul, that Righteous Gentile whose tree stands in the avenue at Yad Vashem, in his final completed work 'Ce Dieu Injuste? - theologie chretienne pour le peuple d'Israel', offers an extended analysis and re-thinking of the various Christian texts that deal with Jews and with Israel. It is a pity it - like his earlier work on Israel and the Jews, 'Un Chretien Pour Israel' - has not been translated into English, for it is a classic demonstration of how it is possible to be a deeply convinced Christian, taking the Christian texts seriously, without for one moment countenancing any form of antisemitism.

The centrepiece of the book is his exegesis of Romans 9-11; he argues very convincingly that for Paul, the fact that many of his contemporary fellow-Jews rejected Jesus is understood as just one more episode in the story of Israel-with-God. Since no previous act of rejection or disbelief by Israel had resulted in God ending the relationship, Ellul reads Paul as believing that this particular instance of rejection (from the side of the people) is not final, either. And Ellul points out that Paul warns those Gentile believers in Rome very strongly: they *must not* 'boast against' Israel. Had Paul's warning about refraining from 'boasting' been heeded by Gentile believers, and had Jesus' commandment to 'love your [perceived, in this case] enemies' been more faithfully kept, especially toward Jews, the gross cruelties that Gentile 'Christendom' perpetrated against Jews could not have happened.

The statement reported in Matthew's gospel - 'His blood be upon us and our children' - is perfectly capable of a very different reading from that which antisemites love to find in it. For, Jacques Ellul points out, in his book 'Un Chretien Pour Israel', in the *whole* of the Christian scriptures the blood of Jesus is normally interpreted not as a source of death but of life, not of condemnation but of salvation. As one traditional hymn puts it, 'but the blood of Jesus/ for our pardon cries'. What if one reads it *that* way? What if one were to see, in that scene, an unknowing re-enactment of the sprinkling of the blood upon the people that took place at Sinai, when half of the blood of a sacrifice was sprinkled upon an altar and the other half...upon the people? A Christian reader who 1. knows that passage from Exodus and 2. sees Yeshua/ Jesus as the Word of the Holy One in human form (what is more: the Word as...a Jewish man, a Hebrew, a son of Isaac), can read that scene as one in which an utterance that might *seem* to be the invocation of a curse (and has been read thus, by the careless or the malevolent) can in fact be read instead quite consistently - from the *Christian* side - as the unwitting invocation of *blessing*, of *salvation*. God takes his people at their word...

Jesus wept over Jerusalem, and warned of imminent temporal destruction. I don't think his visions of destruction imply a permanent and final ruin, any more than previous visions of destruction related by the Prophets. All previous destructions and judgements were followed by acts of resurrection/ restoration/ return and I don't see there is anything in the Gospels that excludes that possibility.

In Acts 1: 6-8, Jesus' followers ask the resurrected Lord when he will restore the kingdom to Israel (and the question does seem to pertain to temporal nationhood, sovereignty, freedom from, at that time, Rome/ foreign rule). He does not answer; instead, he tells them he is sending them out into the world.

"When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, "Lord, wilt thou at this time return the kingdom [Greek: basileia] to Israel?" And he said unto them, "It is not for you to know the times and the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Spirit is come upon you; and ye shall be witnesses unto me, both in Jerusalem, and in Judea and Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth".

I don't think that the answer 'it is not for you to know the times and the seasons' requires to be read as 'No, never'. Rather, it seems to mean simply, 'That's not *your* business' (i.e. not for these particular people to know) - you have something different to do'. And it also seems to imply, 'Yes, but not yet, later'. It was going to be a long, long wait...had he told them how long, it might have been too much for them to bear.

The antisemitic texts of some of the Greek patristic writers - and the Lutheran antisemitic diatribes, now for the most part decently buried and gathering dust in the more obscure parts of university libraries - can be dealt with very simply by remembering that they are not Scripture. They **do not** have the same authority as either the TaNaKh or the Gospels. Christians can choose to reject much that the non-canonical texts contain, and can criticise it as being incomplete or just plain wrong. Some of my ancestors were German Lutherans: nevertheless, I think that when Luther wrote his mad anti-Jewish diatribes he was teaching *evil*.

I think what is meant when Christianity is called a 'religion of peace' is put very well in the work of David Bentley Hart. It is not about politics, and whether individual Christians have engaged in violence, etc. It's about the way we understand the cosmos and God. In his book 'The Beauty of the Infinite' Hart spends a good deal of time expounding the contrast between, on the one hand, the modern [and ancient pagan, whether Greco-Roman or other] philosophical assumption that violence (including war) is both original and final, that violence is, so to speak, at the bottom of everything while peace is always only ever temporary or an illusion, and on the other hand, what Hart argues is the biblical revelation that no matter how much violence we may encounter in this present age, whether in nature or among humans, it is peace - shalom - that is both original and final.

As you pointed out, above, the God of Israel is depicted, at times, as a warrior, rescuing and defending his people and overthrowing temporal and spiritual forces of evil; one of His titles is 'the Lord of Hosts'; but it would not, I think, be at all accurate to assimilate Him to, for example, the pagan gods of war such as Ares or Odin, as if War were all there is, or all that matters.

Interesting that no one commented on my comment.

Also interesting, and probably related: most everyone here (other than the troll or two) continue to valiantly support Geller, even though she is not representing their view.

Katherine Marshall, columnist for the Washington Post is NOT part of the Cordoba group.

I believe it was Katherine Marshall of the World Bank who is described as "a core group member of the Council of 100" that was at the December 2008 Malaysian meeting.
http://www.weforum.org/pdf/C-100/C100newsletter2.pdf

I apologize for the error.

As a general rule, if you don't believe it, don't say it (unless, of course, you are intending sarcasm, lampon, etc). I definitely disagree with key aspects of this letter (see below). I could see this being written by someone else who has no clue about Rauf, about sharia, jihad, and Islam, and is just operating on the naive assumption that Rauf is a compassionate and reasonable man and thus would be susceptible to the attempt at persuasion. But given that Pamela is not naive about Rauf and sharia, Islam, jihad, etc., and has already made her criticisms of him clear in her statements, this presentation doesn't work. And it is reasonably clear that Pamela does not intend this to be taken as sarcastic. Moreover, she can call Rauf's bluff, if that's her intention, without making the kind of statements she makes in the letter.

Pamela wrote:
"I call upon your conscience, your goodness, your love of America, to move you to reconsider"

But it is abundantly clear that his conscience, goodness, and love of America--if such terms are at all applicable--are all understood in Islamic terms. His goal as a pious active well-positioned and influential Muslim leader is to spread the message of Islam here as far as he can and establish sharia.

"Imam Rauf, please withdraw this plan and show the world real understanding and kindness and empathy."

Again, to Rauf, planting a mosque complex at the site of a jihad attack in order to further spread the "true" message of Islam does show the world his Islamic understanding, kindness, and sympathy. He is eager to save the doomed souls of the naive non-Muslims (i.e., those who don't know about, or who don't resist, Islam), and he knows, as the Quran tells him, Islam is the only acceptable means to do this (3:85). Given what he surely believes, he must think he's helping those naive non-Muslims. And he is eager to set up a symbol and indeed an active center of Islamic conquest and supremacy in order to discourage the harbis (those non-Muslims who oppose Islam with words or deeds) and encourage the Muslims.

"As a religious man, you would never mean to cause such overwhelming sadness and grief."

He might not want to cause sadness and grief to the naive non-Muslims who he might think are potential converts or at least are Islamically-useful non-Muslims. But to the stubborn kufaar and harbis, e.g., those who are in his mind so obstinate and evil to oppose a mosque complex, why would he not want to cause them sadness and grief, given what Islam (Quran and Muhammad's words and deeds) tells him to do (i.e., curse them, call upon Allah to inflict famine and hardship upon them, oppose them, never help them, announce to them a painful and shameful "doom," etc.)? It is precisely the fact that he is an Islamically religious man that requires him as a religious duty to want, in his heart, to inflict sadness and grief upon the non-Muslims who resist Islam, and that would be least of his jihad obligations (according to the Hadith), and would be exemplary (according to the Quran 60:1-4; also see the doctrine of Wala al wal Bara).

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