Ahmadis branded as heretics, viciously persecuted in Pakistan

No Pakistani minority is as victimized as the country's 4 million Ahmadis, who believe in Islam but are viewed by the rest of the country as heretics."

Also sprach Alex Rodriguez. Has he, by any chance, interviewed (perhaps in secret) the Pakistanis who have taken the last name "Masih"? He might find a "Pakistani minority" subject to even crueler treatment at the hands of the "real" Muslims than are the Ahmadis.

As for his assertion that only "illiterates" are attacking the Ahmadis, one can reply in two ways.

First, a very large number of people, the majority certainly, in Pakistan are illiterates.

Second, it is the official policy of the government of Pakistan, and not of merely "illiterates" lead astray, as Alex Rodriguez seems to think, by "radical imams" (those "radical imams" represent the majority of Pakistani Muslims; they share the same views, believe the same things), to declare that "Ahmadis" may not, on offical or any other documents, declare themselves to be Muslims. And that means, in a Muslim country, trouble.

When Alex Rodriguez starts to understand that, he will be fit to report from Pakistan. Until then, he remains no better, and alas no worse, than a great many of the Western reporters who have made Pakistan their beat.

"Laws that brand Ahmadis, a minority regarded elsewhere in the world as a Muslim sect, as non-Muslims only serve to breed intolerance within Pakistani society...."

He's got that backwards: it was Pakistani intolerance that created the laws, not the laws that created the intolerance.

Please dont waste sympathy on the Ahmedis

It is true that the founder preached against Jihad, but only against the british

Ahmedis did plenty of Jihad against the Sikhs and Hindus

Pandit Lekh Ram a Hindu preacher who tried to reconvert muslims was killed by an Ahmedi Assassin

Ahmedis funded the Pakistan movement and in the jihadi invasion of Kashmir in 1947, Ahmedis raised an Ahmedi regiment for Pakistan

Feroze Noon a Ahmedi Pakistani PM boasted of committing anti-Hindu atrocities more brutal than Genghis Khan
Zafrullah Khan a Ahmedi diplomat at the UN deftly promoted Pakistans cause in the Kashmiri issue

Abdul Samad, the Ahmedi Nobel prize winner did plenty of Anti-Hindu tirades

I simply call it Karma , for the Ahmedis what they are getting from other muslims

"journalist Alex Rodriguez (taking time off from playing third base for the New York Yankees, I guess) suggests that those who persecute the Ahmadis are merely 'illiterates' who are swayed by 'radical imams'."

Swing and a miss for Rodriguez...

"journalist Alex Rodriguez suggests that those who persecute the Ahmadis are merely 'illiterates' who are swayed by 'radical imams'."

Well, those Imams are not illiterates, they are schooled in the minutia of Islamic theology.

Meanwhile, one wonders if Hesperado perceives the Ahmadis, facing the cruelest of persecutions on a par with the Bahai in Iran, as just as dangerous as any other Muslim?

""The police won't give us any kind of investigation. We have left our fate, and this case, up to God."

If Allah is your God, then be prepared for a big "Gotcha"...

As Barani points out, Ahmadis are sowing what they reaped.

They were at the forefront of the Pakistan movement, and one of Djinnah's "advisers" (who advised him to return to India to take up the Muslim separatist cause) was an Ahmadi, as have been numerous other jihadis who have fancied taking a swing at India, Hindus, and Sikhs.

It's like, say, Romanians making common cause with the Nazis (against, say, Jews and Gypsies), but then finding out to their horror, after the Jews and Gypsies have been sorted out, that they themselves don't quite meet the standard required for "pure white master race".

Pakistan was made for Muslims. They wanted to practice Islam free from kuffar infulences, and from being dominated by kuffar. So it has to be defined who a 'muslim' is, since that is a priveleged position of being a citizen of the "land of the pure". Just like in pre-civil rights America, when being white was a privelege. Who was "white"? Were you white if you were 1/8 black (Plessey vs Fergueson)? Were you white if you were Indian (as on Sikh tried to argue in 1922 citing Aryan origins)? Were Irish or Italians white? So it is with Ahmadis who insist on being muslim depite violating one of the basio tenets of the finality of Mo. If they are muslim, then Mahatma Gandhi is also muslim, since he used to invoke Allah in his bhajans. It's a slippery slope is what I am sayin'.

One gang of supernaturalists in an everlasting blood feud with another. And yet those of us who are not supernaturalists are considered inferior to both. Skewers one's level of trust, I can tell you.

The Bahais seem to be a rather passive lot, though. Do they have any jihadist tendencies in their background. About all I knew of them until recently was old Seals and Crofts albums.

Here's a picture of that professor whose hand was chopped off by Muslims:

http://www.haindavakeralam.com/HK/uploadedfile/03096_188815%20%281%294720107203341.jpg

Ahmedis arrive in Europe and North America and claim refugee status as non-muslim. Once they have their paper work approved, they claim that they are muslims. Ahmedis are extremely anti Christian but they love to move to western countries. As a Pakistani Christian I personally know Ahmedis who reside in Canada and USA but love Pakistan with great convictions. As a Pakistani Christian I call Pakistan a "Hell Hole" and on the flip side have never witnessed a Ahmedi showing negative sentiments towards Pakistan. Infact, one Ahmedi person told me he likes laws of Saudi Arabia in terms of dealing with thieves (cutting off hands he meant).

I once had an American woman, the head of a hospital medical transcription department where I worked, tell me she had enjoyed her months working in Saudi Arabia and that there was no street crime because they chopped the hands off thieves. She eventually proved herself to be as vicious as might be expected of someone who would think that way. I often think of her when I hear Westerners speak in praise of Islam. Not all of them are merely "naive".

The Ahmedi Abdus Salam opined in his Nobel days that the Koran was the greatest gift given to mankind. For all his pissing in foreign lands for the cause of Islam Zia-ul-Haq refused to allow him, the only Pakistani Nobelist, to be buried in Pakistan. If the Ahmedis were instrumental in driving Hindus and adherents of other religions from Pakistan, the community is reaping what it sowed.

It is noteworthy that Pakistan's only Nobel Prize laureate, Dr. Ahmed Abdus Salam, was discredited and persecuted in his native country. This does not speak well for a nation in which the illiteracy rate stand at around 62%. Dogmatic considerations seem to be more important than truth and progress.

One of the widespread editions of the Quran in the United States is published by the Ahmadi movement in Pakistan, from which it is distributed to Western lands. The commentary, by the Maulana Muhammed Ali, is loaded with theological potshots and slanderous statements against Jews and Christians, but particularly against Jews.

Ironic that a movement, some of whose representatives seem to tolerate such intolerance, is itself the victim of persecution.

Mr Rodriguez should, as Hugh has suggested above, go and have a quiet chat to Pakistani Christians. I suggest he interview Patrick Sookhdeo, ex-Muslim, now Christian, born to parents of Pakistani extraction, and read his book about Pakistani Christians, 'A People Betrayed'. I suggest he also interview Michael Nazir-Ali, born and raised in Pakistan, to parents who had converted from Islam to Catholicism. Both of these people could put him in touch with others, on the ground.

He could interview the grieving, frantic parents of Christian minor girls who have been raped, and murdered, or kidnapped, and raped, and 'converted' to Islam, with the full connivance and protection of the authorities.

And he could *also* interview the Hindu and Sikh parents, resident in Pakistan, whose daughters have similarly been snatched away.

In just one year, I think it was 2005, no fewer than 25 Christian girls and 50 Hindu girls were seized by Muslims, in Pakistan, and 'disappeared' forever, lost to their frantic families. There is no justice. There is no redress. They are taken, used and abused, gone; perhaps even sold as slaves to the decadent sheikhs of the Arabian peninsula.

Mr Rodriguez could find out - from Christians, from Hindus, from Sikhs - all of whom have been attacked, their places of worship destroyed, threats made against them unless they pay the jizya, accusations of 'blasphemy' trumped up as excuses for beating, imprisonment, pogroms - what it is like to live as a non-Muslim in a state controlled by Muslims.

Then he could talk to Assyrian Christian and Coptic Christian refugees from Iraq and from Egypt, and to Hindu and Christian and Buddhist refugees from Bangladesh, and discover that they, in those countries, are suffering *exactly the same* gross cruelties and bullying, the same kidnappings and rapes, the same robberies and murders and mob attacks and desecration of sacred places, from the Muslims around them, as the non-Muslims are suffering in Pakistan.

And then he might begin to get a clue; that everywhere it possesses sufficient power, the Ummah behaves like a predator.

In Pakistan one can offer a hierarchy of violence, and of its Muslim perpetrators and their victims

On the top are Sunni Muslims. No one persecutes them, though some of the rich landowners and military men are disturbed to discover, as in Swat, that the local Taliban has a distinctly los-de-abajo land-redistribution element, and that of course effects their interests. It's one thing to attack Americans -- that's just fine -- or local non-Muslims -- that's fine too -- but quite another to attack zamindars and generals.

Next are Shi'a Muslims, who are mocked by Sunni Muslims and humiliatied, in various ways by Sunnis, and even are the object of repeated murderous attack -- on Shi'a mosques, schools, shrines, etc. -- by Sunnis, especially those who are members of the Sunni terrorist group Sipah-e-Sahaba, the object of murderous attack.

Next are the Ahmadis, who are not allowed to identify themselves as Muslims, and are the object of persecution and humiliation as non-Muslims, at the hands of both Sunni Muslims and Shi'a Muslims.

Next, at the bottom, are the Christians and the Hindus (we hear almost nothing about the latter) and the few Sikhs who may be left. They live in permanent fear; they try to make as little noise as possible. They are subject to every conceivable indignity and cruelty. And we more and more hear, despite all this, about the use of blasphemy laws against Christians, the beating to death of Christian servants, the killing by police of Christians who have been taken into custody -- in Islam a Muslim can take the Shari'a into his own hands, and carry out the Shari'a-required sentence, as he sees fit and will seldom, if ever, be punished.

That's Pakistan. That's the country that has received more than thirty billion dollars in American aid since 9/11/2001 alone (don't be fooled by official reports -- a lot of the aid is disguised in a larger Pentagon budget).

Pakistan is far less likely to give up, or modify, Islam, on the Kemalism plan, as neighboring Iran. For the Iranians have a prior, great, non-Islamic civilization to appeal to, to make part or all of their identity. But the Pakistanis have Islam, and nothing but Islam; they never consider what went on at Mohenjo-Daro, much less The Wonder That Was Bharat, at least before the Muslim invaders arrived to damage and kill and create what V. S. Naipaul rightly called "A Wounded Civilization."

the Amadis are fools if they think Islam is good for them...

Why are we busting our collective butts even talking about this? Ahmadis (whoever the hell they are), Sunnis, Shias, bogstandard sink Muslims, Muslim converts, they are all the same at the end of the day. They all want us dead first, but will settle for we have, and that means colonizing our (Western) countries demanding the most for themselves and their revolting wives and offspring. Monty Python's Life of Brian comes to mind here.... splitters!

If I remember correctly our old trolling friend Naseem is an Ahmadi from Lahore. If we go back and reread her posts we'll discover the proportionate amount of sympathy that should be given to her, as she would give to all of us if we were living in her home country.

pulsar182 - the Amadis are fools if they think Islam is good for them...

Islam is good for all; Ahmadis are getting free publicity, you are getting a kindered togotherness from this too aren't you?

As for Ahmadis, I don't understand why they go for fake when they can have the real thing, however they see themselves as the lighter & brighter side of Islam.

Lahore is a city steeped in heritage and culture, & it is said (but not personally vouched) that Lahoris are known for their fun-loving spirit.

I think their numbers have increased since the hudood laws introduction particularily out of Pakistan. The UK & parts of Africa is very much a 2nd home for Ahmadis and their spiritual leader.

The reactions after attacks are of denial. Statements such as “these terrorists can neither be Muslims nor Pakistanis” echoed from the common man to those in authority.

At the end of the day we (all) need to look within ourselves. The Ahmadi spiritual leaders have taught us peace, tolerance, spirituality, co-existence and universal brotherhood, so it was disappointing to read the comments here that they "deserve it".

Nobody deserves it, that the lesson for our futures.

The Ahmadiyya are the proselytizing arm of the Mohammedan movement. They are migrating in large numbers and many have been able to settle in Europe, where they loudly proclaim their intention to build thousands of mosques.

In Germany they have succeeded in building quite a few mosques against the wishes of local residents, and there have been rumors that, once the Ahmadiyya establish a foothold, the more militant Sunnis move in and take over.

Neither deserve our pity for the exact reason Ivan above mentioned: If the Ahmedis were instrumental in driving Hindus and adherents of other religions from Pakistan, the community is reaping what it sowed.

Here's more: "Eating Pork Makes You Homosexual" etc etc....

http://sheikyermami.com/2007/04/12/ahmadiyya-sect-in-germany-eating-pork-makes-you-homosexual/

No one 'deserves' to be persecuted by Islam...But there is such a thing as karma, which operates in and outside of Islam...Karma basically means 'cause and effect'...Every singe human 'causes' things to happen, and these things have some kind of effect, depending on motivation...The end result is called karma...If you set a negative energy in motion, it will return to you as a negative energy and have some kind of negative effect on your life...Good karma is the reverse...

The Amahdiyya set a negative energy in motion and they are now reaping what they have sewn, as far as Islam, and Pakistani Mahoundians are concerned...Do they deserve it? Not in my estimation because that legitimizes their Mahoundian murderers...

''Islam is good for all''. Quite the converse, rattus rattus, its poppycock.

..not to mention tripe, bumpkum, piffle and balderdash. That's being polite as is humanly possible.

I really don't care if Muslims kill each other, the more the merrier I say. Saves us a job when the time comes.

Islam is good for perverts who can't keep their minds off their peepees. Other than that I can't see any use for it. And the fact that they are in agreement that it is imperative to oppress half the population (the female half) in that never ending quest to satisfy said peepees makes it the most slimy and cowardly system ever perpetrated on other members of the human race.

Congratulations Roland. As an admitted Muslim you don't see what else you admit to being. But we do.

Never under estimate or feel bad for these Ahmadia Muslims.They are as venomous and dangerous as other sects .
These Ahmadis come to western countries as a persecuted lot,and when they get foothold,they start their missionary work of converting the whites.
As Duh_swamy said above"The Amahdiyya set a negative energy in motion and they are now reaping what they have sewn, as far as Islam, and Pakistani Mahoundians are concerned...Do they deserve it? Not in my estimation because that legitimizes their Mahoundian murderers...

It is not merely the Ahmadis! What about the Shias, Muhajirs, Hazaras, et al? Every sect seems to be thirsty for the blood of every other sect in Pakistan! The very followers of Islam have themselves become the biggest existential threat for it, haven't they?

Pakistan is on a path of self-destruction! And now the world has begun realising this fact! What remains to be seen is that for how long could the pseudo-democratic governance in Islamabad continue the way it is going at present! There seems to be an imminent onset of anarchy in Pakistan, sooner or later!