"It has never yielded any dividends, of course, but repeated failure only prompts the architects of the policy to redouble their efforts."
Indeed. And that goes also for Pakistan, and so many, many other venues.
"ICJ Ruling: Blow to Serbia, Boon to Tadić & Jeremić," by Srdja Trifkovic at the Lord Byron Foundation for Balkan Studies, July 22 (thanks to George):
[...] Aiding and abetting Muslim designs in the Balkans, in the hope that this will earn some credit for the United States in the Islamic world, has been a major motive of American policy in the region since at least 1992. It has never yielded any dividends, of course, but repeated failure only prompts the architects of the policy to redouble their efforts.It is virtually certain that Washington will be equally supportive of an independent Sanjak that would connect Kosovo with Bosnia, or of any putative Islamistan, from western Macedonia to southern Bulgaria to northern Caucasus. The late Tom Lantos must be smiling approvingly wherever he is now, having called, three years ago, on "Jihadists of all color and hue" to take note of "yet another example that the United States leads the way for the creation of a predominantly Muslim country in the very heart of Europe."
In the region, the ICJ verdict will encourage two distinct but interconnected trends: greater-Albanian aspirations against Macedonia, Montenegro, Greece, and rump-Serbia (Preševo), and pan-Islamic agitation for the completion of the Green Corridor - an Islamic belt anchored in Asia Minor and extending north-westward across the Balkans into the heart of Central Europe.
Beyond the Balkans, it will breed instability in each and every potential or actual separatist hotspot, from Galilee to Kashmir, from the Caucasus to Sinkiang....
There's just one small flaw in this. Neither the Bosnians nor the Kosovans are particularly animated by Islam. The real villains of the peace were the Serbs, whose leader Milosevic was an old-fashioned Communist, and who persecuted the Roman Catholic Church to death during the break-up of Yugoslavia.
Why, it´s obvious!
Assist, help and support muslims and muslims will be grateful and helpful in return for ever and ever!
Everything is honest-to-goodness truth. God bless you, Srdja. I remember Clintonite sociopaths raving on TV that "the Muslims are gonna love us" (for killing Serb Christians for the Bosnian and Kosovar Albanian Muslims). Well, did we enjoy their love 2 years later, on September 11, 2001? On March 11, 2004 in Madrid? On July 7, 2005 in London? Kosovar Albanians playing a key role in the last 2 "love fests".
The unspeakable evil the United States, England, Spain and other Western democracies did unto the Serb Christians for wicked reasons will never be redeemed.
Ruslan Tokhchukov, EnragedSince1999.
why is it that even though there are different administraions of different parties, the politics of helping the death cult to rule over more and more lands doesn't change. These people should be exposed and fired. i know the Bama won't do it, he is enabling them. but a third party would do it.
The Serbs, Enragedsince1999, have never really been Christians, as the Turkish invasion interrupted the Church's evangeliastion of them. They are pagans who tend more to the worship of Vid, under the guise of St Sava.
After the Battle of Kosovo polje in 1389, Serbia kept its independence for eighty years. It invariably allied itself with the Turks against the Christian powers during that period, and even provided a team of sappers to help the Turks undermine the walls of Constantinople during the last siege of the city.
The only Serbs who were loyal to Christendom were those who migrated to the Austrian Military Frontier and stood with the Catholics against the Ottoman invaders.
And you, "southcoastcrusader", shove your Nazi Croat "Roman Catholic Church" propaganda back down your throat.
Do you seriously think you can deceive the folks here? Your Nazi Croats disgusted even Nazi German SS ( SS ! ! !) with their unspeakable sadism toward Ortodox Christian Serb men, women and children, whose only guilt was not being Roman Catholic. An SS Sturmbannfuhrer in his report described the Croat actions toward the Orthodox (Serbs) as "beastly". On June 22, 1941 the Croat Education Minister, author Mile Budak outlined "the Final Solution to the Serbian question": "One-third of them we will kill, one-third expel, and convert the rest into Catholisism". The Croats had a clear preference for the 1st option. When the terrified population of the Serb village Glina obediently followed the Croat order to gather in their Ortodox Christian church to be converted to Catholisism later that summer, the Croats bolted down the doors and burned more than 1,300 Serb men, women and children alive with the church. Just murdering a Serb was never enough for the Croat Nazis. No, there had to be torture first: limb crushing or amputation, genital mutilation, and eye-cutting, the all-pervasive practice of eye-cutting. All Croat Nazis wore small crooked knives attached to a brasslet, one that can nicely carve out eyes in a Halloween pumpkin. Only the Croats did not use those knives to carve pumpkins. They used them to cut eyes out of live human beings. It was almost like: "You're out of new torture ideas? Just cut the Serb's eyes out".
Curzio Malaparte, an Italian Fascist Army officer, recalls in his memoirs "Kaputt" his visit to the headquarters of Ante Pavelic, the Fuhrer of the "allied" "Hezavisna Drzava Hrvatska" ("Independent State of Croatia") that he found the Fuhrer feasting on what at first glance looked as shrimp. At a closer examination, to his horror, Malaparte realized that those were not shrimp but human eyes. Like a Vurdalak ghoul of the Serb folklore, the Croat Fuhrer was eating them raw and bloody, human blood running down out of the corners of his mouth.
Not just Malaparte, but the entire Italian Fascist Army were revolted by their Croat "allies" and fellow Roman Catholics. The Itallian General Mario Roatta ordered his army to take a military action against the Croats. The Italians shot thousands of Nazi Croats saving thens of thousands of Serbs, Jews and Gyspsies from them.
By contrast, the Croats called the Bosnian Muslima "the flower of the Croation Nation". Nazi Croats, Bosnian and Kosovar Albanian Islamo-Nazis engaged in an all-out atrocity contest.
"southcoastcrusader":
Your verbal whoredoms are futile with me. I easily see through you, and recognize your Nazi Croat agenda for what it is.
Your Croat people are unique in Europe, for no other European population played such a disproportionate role in empowering the Muslims in Europe, from Michael Lattas who converted to Islam and as Omar Pasha led Muslim hordes in a jihad on Balkan Christians and the Russians, to the Croats in Bosnia-Herzegovina uniting with the Muslims into the "Schutzkorps" to pogrom Serb civilians after the assassination of the Austrian Archduke Franz-Ferdinand in Saraevo in 1914, to joint torture-genocide of the Serb, Jewish and Gypsy civilians during WWII, shoulder-to-shoulder with Bosnian Islamo-Nazi Waffen SS Handschar division and Kosovar Albanian Waffen SS Skanderbeg division.
And, finally, you and your Islamo-Nazi comrades finished the job on the much-suffered Christian Serb communities of Krajina, Herzegovina, East Slavonia, West Slavonia, Kosara and Kosovo with the help of NATO, who picked up where Hitler left off, handing the Serbs who were so unfailingly loyal to the English, French and Americans throughout their history, into the hands of their worst enemies: Croats, Bosnians and Albanians.
This kind of pure evil does not go unpunished. I was not surprised at all when I woke up to 9/11. To bad, it were not the Clintons, or the Blairs, or Albright, or Hollbrooke, or Talbot or Wesley Clark who were killed, but regular American folks who, out of ignorance or apathy, let our criminal western government do unspeakable evil unto the Serb Christians who suffered so horribly for being loyal to England and USA in both world wars.
And the 2nd worst in Europe are the Slovenes, the Croats' partners in evil.
Ruslan Tokhchukov, EnragedSince1999.
Love it that the US supports Kosovo.
desidude, buddy:
This is why I keep posting here: both the Republican and Democratic parties are rotten to the core and through the core. We desperately need a new Center Party modeled after hero Geert Wilders' glorious Freedom Party and Englands
's EDL, with American heroes Rudy Giuliani and Paul Sperry in charge.
desidude and other folks: please back me up in calling on Robert, Hugh, Marisol and other JW folks to invite Rudy and Paul to their 9/11 rally as honorary speakers, if they haven't done it already. This rally is just the right place to launch such a party that will appeal to the sensible middle of the American people and will save our country and Western civilization.
Ruslan tokhchukov, EnragedSince1999.
You are so right there enraged. I have been arguing for years that the reason America is royally screwed in terms of leadership is the lack of a third party to help maintain a balance within congress and to also act as a reasonable party that could assume leadership during elections if the other two main parties are as incompetent as the democrats and republicans are at the moment. What you essentially have right now in the States are two parties with policies that are similar. Although the Republicans are not as bad as the Obamination administration their policies are hardly the conservative policies they need.
I fully agree with you. The Croats tried to hide their Nazi persecution of the Serbs, gypsies, and other minorities. They almost erased the memories of their horrible death camp but people know about it and have pictures to prove it. This camp was dedicated to starving and working to death all those unfortunate enough to be in there. A camp so horrible and it's execution methods so terrible even the German Nazis couldn't take it. For the bloodthirsty Croats, Bullets and gas chambers were too costly, they preferred to use hand methods and devices, One was mentioned by Enraged. Other was a claw hammer type device.
Pretending this is a holy catholic endeavor is a crime against Catholics, as far as I am concerned. The Croats and their Muslim allies can so to hell.
The problem with a 3rd party is that it will guarantee the Democrats an endless dynasty.
"This is why I keep posting here: both the Republican and Democratic parties are rotten to the core and through the core. We desperately need a new Center Party modeled after hero Geert Wilders' glorious Freedom Party and Englands
's EDL, with American heroes Rudy Giuliani and Paul Sperry in charge."
Like it or not, the Tea Party Movement is the only popular political force that appears capable of producing a third, center political party in this country, Ruslan. There's no way a third party is going to emerge from the existing political class/parties in this country.
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. "
Albert Einstein
I think recent administrations fall neatly into this definition.
Will the Muslims be ever greatful to whatever good you bestow upon them? For years, we have witnessed quite the opposite effect for our good deeds. They just take it all as a 'jiziya'- a tax on infidels to Muslims,and that is it.See for instance Obama is pouring billions of dollars free in to Pakistan.Are they greatful? quite contrary,they still call us 'great satan' and finding ways and means for our destruction. The Christian minorities there are tortured and killed just for them being Christians.Same case in Egypt-after swallowing the American free aid, they systematically persecute the Christian Coptic population there. Obama will never open his mouth about this ,and turns the other way when the Coptic delegation took out a procession to the white house. 'Pouring milk over the deadly snake's pit never makes it feel 'greatful to you'.
Muslims are never ever grateful to infidels for all the help they receive from them. Muslims think it is their Mo/allah given right to extract as much help from us and never give anything back - even a glimpse of goodwill towards us is not allowed by their imamullahs.
Now the problem is our leaders are not willing to admit this and as the article says they are ready to double down the aid to receive any goodwill gesture from Muslims. The record of Muslims is very clear about this - examples are aid to Balkan Muslims to the point of bombing and killing non-Muslims. Aid to Pakistan has been such a waste; since 9/11 alone more than 30 billion dollars have been poured in their country and the Pakistan public still violently hates us. After the tsunami, US sent more than a billion dollar in aid(compared to 10 or 15 million dollars given to them by Saudis) to Indonesia's Aceh province and how much good will did it generate. Nothing, zilch!!! We are pouring billions in Iraq and Afghanistan and sacrificing our young men and women so that they can leave decently but it's of no avail!!!
The lesson is stop all aid to them, stop their immigration in the West, leave them to their own fate and see how they survive in this world.
Whether I'm a Croat or not (in fact I'm not) it's evident from the postings by Enragedsince 1999 that the Serb heretics are worse than the Islamists. They have been nation killers every chance they've had during the twentieth century.
The record of mediaeval history is also clear. Instead of standing with their Christian brothers in Hungary and Austria, and with their Emperor in 1453, these treacherous animals sided with the unbelievers time and time again after the Battle of Kosovo and enabled them to reach the gates of Vienna twice in two centuries.
That is why Croatia, not Serbia, was called 'antemurale Christianitatis'.
For the record, the Ustashe never had more than 7,000 committed supporters during World War 2, and they were all from Herzegovina. They wouldn't have been in power or anywhere near it but for the German occupation.
As for collaborationists, let me give you General Milan Nedic. More Jews were murdered in Serbia on his watch than in Croatia under Pavelic.
Thank you, Enraged. How novel it would have been to read this in the news of the 1990s or in history texts.
Clinton's actions should have received national and international condemnation - they should have been still born and never implemented, but our foreign policy is schizophrenic. If we had begun to understand islam/sharia/jihad during WWWI, WWII or the 70s how much further ahead could we be? Jefferson knew. How much we could have prevented through a cold war or effective hot wars?
The legacy of jihad is 14 centuries of atrocities; it will only end when we stop it. I cannot accept global capitulation and endless subjugation to this evil.
I was not surprised at all when I woke up to 9/11.
Neither was I. The betrayal of Serbs, our faithful friends, truly heroic people and delivering them to our greatest enemy is an infamy that marred and dirtied the face of post war america as nothing before.
US at its worse. Kosovo is the place where the righteous giant of yesterday was tricked to crime by morally corrupted bunch of whores, punks and imbeciles.
PS.
God bless you, enraged.
To all and especially to those who are not very informed about peoples of Yougoslavia and therefore may give some credit to the pile of manure produced by southcoastcrusader I most warmly recommend, even insist, reading Rebecca West's Black Lamb and Grey Falcon. One of greatest books of 20 century - an opinion pronounced by qute a few respected literature critics.
But don't take my word for it go and read about it here first:
http://www.leaderu.com/ftissues/ft0003/articles/west.html
A book is about her travels in Balkans, among Serbs, Croats and Bosnians. But reflections it triggers go far beyond the Balkans.
Thanks for posting this Robert. The truth about the breakup of Yugoslavia is yet to be told. Let the liars finish their barking and then it will be heard. The history has no mercy to liars.
The link in the article doesn't work, here it is:
http://www.balkanstudies.org/blog/icj-ruling-blow-serbia-boon-tadi%C4%87
Christ is risen!
You and I ordinarily agree, Thomas_h, and we even partially agree here. Let me state for the record (again) that I was against an independent Kosovo. I thought the Bush Administration wrong to recogonize Kosovo as a separate nation state. And I think you know by now what I think of Islam and what it bodes for the West.
Nonetheless, in an effort to be as impartial as possible I would note the following: 1) All three major ethnic groups (Serbs, Croatians and Bosnian Muslims) in Yugoslavia during WWWII committed atrocities. The very objective and staid Oxford Companion To World War II says as much in its article entitled "Yugoslavia." To quote, "Catholics (i.e., Croats), Orthodox, (i.e., Serbs) and Muslims (i.e., Bosnian Mohammedans) massacred each other in the name of politics. Most of the 1.2 million Yugoslavs who died in the Second World War perished at the hands of other Yugolslavs." As near as I have been able to tell, the Croatian Ustase was more culpable than any other group but enough blame can be shared by all. 2) I am hardly a supporter of Bill Clinton. In fact, I think he disgraced his Presidency because of his very low moral intelligence. But by 1999 much of the rest of Europe was desperate for a solution to the Balkan mess. For some eight years things were out of control and four wars had taken place. The Americans, first under Bush 41 and then Clinton, told the Europeans that this was their problem and that America was not going to get involved directly. Well, Europe blew it again. Whether it was ineffective Dutch troops, callous Russian soldiers, useless UN soldiers or whoever, the carnage and instability in former Yugoslavia continued year after year and countries like Hungary, Italy, Austria and France were worried about spill over effects like significant Balkan emigration to other European nations. The breakdown was also considered a sore in the eye to NATO which appeared impotent as it could only look on as the mess continued. By 1999, much of Europe was practically begging the US to do something. This fact is often forgotten. I have no doubt that if America had done nothing it would have been condemned for callousness and we have seen that after Clinton engaged in bombing Belgrade the US was condemned for doing that. Either way, America, once again, would have been portrayed in the negative. Damned if you do and damned if you don't. What the bombing of Belgrade did do, I would argue, was end the acute stage of conflict in former Yugoslavia, which in turn breathed a sigh of relief into Western Europe. Since 1999, things have not been good, but too many forget that it was even worse from 1991-1999. The watershed event here which switched things from the acute to chronic stage was the American intervention. And again, all major ethnicities could share the blame, it's just that someone had to be the fall guy and the Serbs were chosen, in part becasue Milosevic and Karadzic were the worst PR players in a deadly game. I feel for the Serbs and honor their heritage but sometimes greater concerns trump a particular people. That was the case here as I outlined above.
This is my reading of things. My best to you and yours.
Wellington,
Nothing that Serbs did during the WWII can be compared to what Serbian people suffered from Croats and Muslims - start here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jasenovac_concentration_camp
Agreed on the Tea Party Movement, Mike.
Most of its adherents are likely conservatives and libertarians who are sick of the Republican establishment.
But notice how the politicians against the GZ mosque are Republicans. Notice how when Muslims run for office it's in the Dem Party.
The Party of slavery and infanticide can now add dhimmitude to its platform. They are so over.
Thank you, LazarOfSerbia, for the link. In the interest of objectivity, I would be curious as to what approximate percentage of blame you would assign to the Serbs during WWII for the commission of atrocities. And I hope you noted that I noted that the Croatian Ustase were almost certainly the worst of the bunch in Yugoslavia during man's largest war in history. As always, I would contend that the truth should be pursued ruthlessly, regardless of where it may lead.
Wellington,
In the interest of objectivity I would avoid any "percentages of blame". There is right and wrong, truth and lie, not some "percentages". Always in history Serbs were on the side of truth and right thing to do.
When Serbian government tried to sign a pact with Hitler's Germany (just to stay neutral, btw), Serbs rushed to the streets of Belgrade and annulled it crying "better war than pact!", "better grave than slave".
When Germans came to Zagreb Croats were cheering and cried "Hail Hitler!".
You don't need percentages to be objective there
It is crystal clear who was who.
Nonetheless, LazarofSerbia, I would still be interested in having Serbian wrongdoing noted. What I have detected overwhelmingly in the never-ending fight between Slovenes, Croats, Serbs and Bosnian Muslims is the tendency to assign wickedness to the "other side" without mentioning any malevolent acts performed by the party assigning blame. I hope you can understand why this would be justified grounds for suspicion to an outsider like me. It particularly seems to be either most Croats are bad and most Serbs good or most Serbs are bad and most Croats good. Very tiring and a guarantee that the rest of the world will become disinterested very quickly, which is exactly what has occurred.
Wellington, I think you did a very thoughtful and thorough posting on the Yugoslav breakup (and, the speed with which it degenerated into tribal People's War after the German invasion and again after Tito's death suggests to me that a very different arrangement of the Balkans should have been tried after World War One).
I recall in that in the 1990's, the Bosniaks were usually portrayed as the victims of ethnic cleansing carried out by Serb nationalists. This probably clinched Washington's thinking that the Serbs needed punishment. I'm not saying that this was the right course of action--and Wellington was certainly right in noting that everyone was expecting America to act and that America faced a damned-if-you-do-and-damned-if-you-don't dilemna. If anything is calculated to horrify the American public and get it to acquiesce in its government's activism, it is the news that someone is the victim of genocide and that the USA is going to punish the perpetrators.
Of course, it is abundantly clear that our stopping the ethnic cleansing of the Muslim Bosniaks and Kosovars earned us no kudos in the Arab world, Iran, or Pakistan.
BTW, Wellington, I agree that Bill Clinton was morally challenged, as is his wife. I'm also suspicious that his pushing for Communist China to get permanent MFN status mya have been prefaced by some financial deals that would have caused a media uproar if done by a Republican.
hey Wellington,
I just read your comment (only once as I am a quite tired -it's 2:20 around here and I had a few beers), I agree with much of what you're saying. Europe's conduct was in no way more honorable than Anmerican Government. In fact even more abominable. But, please give me a few hours sleep before I answer at more length. Hasta mañana, amigo
best
Thomas
One thing I couldn't help noticing, but which still seems to have escaped the notice of the most of our political class, is that not only did Al Qaeda, etc., attack Americans (the 1993 WTC attack, Khobar Towers, the African embassies and the USS Cole) at the same time America was trying to help muslims, but the same terrorist groups NEVER attacked anyone in Serbia or any Serbs in Bosnia. Or have I missed something?
Wellington,
There were many Serbian wrongdoings during the WWII for sure, I really don't have a list. My grandfather told me that Chetniks were merciless towards Communists and Nazis near the end of the war. Some of them were nothing more than bandits who robbed and mistreated people. My uncle (who was not very reliable because he was a communist) told me that he saw as a kid how Chetnicks cut throats of some people who were accused of helping Communists. I know there were many bloody revenges against Muslims and Croats in Bosnia.
But Serbs in general were on the right side:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5CXope9ncI
Only that "right side" betrayed them once again.
Bigfoot:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYYbCq6tg5c
I am no serb either, nor for that european. Of course you can guess from my name that I am in fact indian. I really have no interest im the serb - croat fight except I want the truth. I also am not familiar with ancient history of that region so I can only talk about recent and currect affairs. so far, the truth is on the side of the serbs. they may be orthodox but they are inheritors of a proud christian culture and nation, they were also victims of the worst Croat Nazi attrocities of WW2. They were again victims in the 90's when the world bombed them to seperate their lands. They supported the albanian muslim squatters of the holy serb land of Kosova.
Interesting exchange on Yugoslavia. IMHO civil wars are messy affairs, always have been. BTW the American Civil War wasn't a civil war in the way I understand it. It was by and large a regular war fought between regular armies owning clearly defined territories. In real civil fighting it is neighbor against neighbor, ideology or tribal loyalties being the dividing factor. One need not get too sanctimonious though. If the present trends go on unchecked Eurabia will see such fighting too, atrocities and all. And I know which side will start the atrocities. "Allah hates me this I know/For the Koran tells me so."
President Clington did aid albanians for two reasons, one is because they are muslims and by doing so he hoped the muslim world will appreciate this, but the second reason is much more important, which is by the time of kosovo war he was face increasingly pressure from the Lewenski crisis(i dont know the spelling of the name...),thus by initiate a war and labelled it as ethnic cleansing he might be able to distract people's eyes from domestic to overseas. that was a mistake made by a country purely because its leaders personal preferences, and the following leaders have no choice but to continue this mistake by more and more mistakes.
the serbs are not along, if you consider the romanians and bulgarians and greeks, they are the majority of the balkan pennisula-the orthodox. the way the american government did towards the muslim will hurt our allies, push the orthodox people towards russian side and brought constant explosive threats to the country.
Desidude,
I love and support India 100% in your good fight. And would never humiliate Indians to list their "wrongdoings", because whatever you did fighting against the worst evil in the world you are right.
Only leftist-infected westerners can be so indoctrinated and blind. They forget about Hiroshima and Nagasaki, merciless bombing of German cities towards the end of WWII and many many more of their "wrongdoings". We all know that when you fight against great evil, there is no nice way to win but to destroy the enemy. If you want to win.
And yes - Eurabia will see that very soon.
Thanks for the link, Lazar, to that inspiring story about American soldiers rescued and taken care of by the Serbs.
Thanks for your comments, Kepha. And I agree with you that both Clintons are morally challenged. I'm tired of both of them forever but unfortunately much of America doesn't feel this way. You know, if Obama were really smart, which he isn't, he would step aside in 2012 and let Hillary run on the Democratic ticket. She would have a much better chance of winning than he will. Then, regardless of whether she serves one term or two, he could run again for President for one more term and still not be all that old (55 or 59). Ah, perish the thought though. After another Clinton Presidency followed by another Obama term the country would be pretty much finished. (Hope no Democrat reads this and thinks it a good idea.)
Thank you Lazarofserbia, and I love and support the Serbs over their fight with Albanian Muslims and their lapdogs the Croats.
Wrongdoing? I am of the opinion that throughout history no culture no state no religion is totally innocent. We grow when we recognize our failing and make amends for it. The Japs apologized for their part in ww2, as did the Germans. So have the Christians recognized their wrongdoing and have tried to fix the damages. The muslims however have never apolozied for their bloody conquests of infidal lands and the destruction and or the theft of their culture.
I think one of the roots of the Balkans problems is that the Croats and the Albanians have never faced up to their persecution of the Serbs and others. Marshal Tito, who I believe was an ethnic Croat had no interest in bringing up the Croat, led massacres of Serbs. There was no apologies, no restitution, and no closure of that terrible period of history. I think that this resentment on the part of the Serbs resulted in the Balkans war.
As for India's fight against the invaders from the Islamic hell, we have not done 1/1000 of what they did to us, our culture, and our lands. We have faced a 1400 Muslim occupation, and thanks to the stupid policies of Gandhi and congress party we are still being oppressed by Muslims.
The worst thing I can think about our culture is the rigid caste system. But than I think we had our caste system, but the rest of the world had their class system and slavery. With slaves being on the bottom rung. This sometimes rigid class system mixed with religious differences in Christianity and Islam has led to bloody infighting and wars. This is something the Hindus have not engaged in over 2000 years. This happened after Buddha's great teachings. In addition to this the Hindus have not engaged in wars to spread Hinduism, they have never engaged in the slave trade, and they have not colonized other lands.
Once again if there were some failing in a person, a culture or a nation, this should be recognized. Only than can we move forward. We should learn from history so the same mistakes are not made again.
I have a question for those who have in this thread spoken almost as if they see *all* Croats qua Croats as born-devils, destined from the womb and the cradle to be evil, wicked, sadistic persecutors, deserving only Punishment for ever and ever.
In my parish church I am friends with a parishioner whose father is a Croat who migrated to Australia after the war and married an Australian woman. This lady is a perfectly lovely, cheerful, person, a devout praying Christian; reared a Catholic and now married to an Anglican (who is training for the priesthood) and worshipping as an Anglican. She sings in the church choir. And she has been back to the family ancestral village in Croatia once or twice, so she doesn't curse or repudiate her father's ethnicity.
I lent her my copy of the Quran and she was duly horrified by what she found in it.
Now: were you to meet this woman, and find out that she is the daughter of a Croat; *would you be able to relate to her as a normal human being*? Would you be able to accept that a person whose ancestry is half-Croat, can be a loving, faithful Christian person? Or would you regard it as a perfectly laudable and just act, if some Serb migrant to Australia, upon discovering that this woman was half-Croat, to punish her for the sins of her father's nation by slitting her throat and those of her husband and children?
Engagedsince 1999 Good posts. I have been aware for a long time that there are two sides to what actually happed in the alleged Serbian massacre of Muslims:
http://www.srpska-mreza.com/History/ww2/Bosnia.html
http://serbianna.com/analysis/?p=592
http://serbianna.com/analysis/?p=100
Read this:
http://de-construct.net/?p=6082
Srebrenica — The History of Salon Racism
“In the West, the popular mythology about 7,000-8,000 Muslim men being executed in Srebrenica in 1995 is still alive and well, but independent research shows some 2,000 Bosnian Muslim fighters were killed in battle for Srebrenica and that is the number of bodies Hague investigators were able to find”, said Swiss researcher Alexander Dorin, who has been investigating Srebrenica events for the past 14 years. “
The tragedy of what happened in Bosnia isn’t just about Muslims and Serbs, in my view – it’s purely about how the American push for hegemony in the area has been all-important, and the rest of us fed on propaganda, have been brainwashed. It’s a long tradition with the neo-Cons to play every side against the middle if it would ultimately suit them. Now, years later, neo-con liberalists are reaping the whirlwind, as is the West – as usual their strategy is backfiring and it’s ordinary people all over the world who are suffering, while they’re back pedalling like mad. Look at America and Europe, now. Relentless encroachment of Islamism while these despicable opportunists STILL believe their way is right.
Sorry for the rant – I just can’t stand those who rewrite history in such an evil way. No doubt I’ll be disagreed with, but that’s fine. I don’t pretend to be an expert but I know what I believe.
Sorry for the typo - my apologies - Enragedsince 1999
It’s a long tradition with the neo-Cons to play every side against the middle if it would ultimately suit them. Now, years later, neo-con liberalists...
Neo-cons? Is that code for NWO or 'Globalists'? The international manipulators and take over artists would include 'neo-cons', but are not exclusively of them...
I'm not disagreeing with your post...
As far as 'Enraged' is concerned, I have been reading his posts for quite a while and tend to give him credibility...
From article...an Islamic belt anchored in Asia Minor and extending north-westward across the Balkans into the heart of Central Europe.
This belt will have no edges...Islamic hegemony is omnidirectional...
"I am of the opinion that throughout history no culture no state no religion is totally innocent"
Well, no educated westerner thinks so, of course, so probably this is not the question.
Trying to remain totally impartial, under all circumstances is a useless pretension to a moral absolute, just as much as claiming to belong to 'the party that's totally innocent' But searching for objective truth we have been lead to the idea that 'there's good and bad in everyone' and consequently that 'there is no right or wrong'. And although as an individual we always have to make our own moral judgement and decisions, we cannot really escape taking sides.
When it does come down to the nitty gritty you just have to agree that you àre part of a tribe, 'for better of for worse'. You can denounce your own, of course, but is that commendable? You find a renegades or a convert admirable?
This is what happened to us in the west, after the atrocities of the nazi's and the communists became known - and this feeling of guilt over ouw own history has made westerners very susceptible to the moral attack socialism has made on our culture, to such an extent that now 'we' think we have to believe that a totem, a scalp or an oak is every bit as sacred as the cross is reprehensible
You/we do not have to decide which side is totally innocent.. But we/you will have to decide which side we/you are on, and then try not to sin when we ourselves must take action..
The Republicans started as a third party. The Whigs of the north broke away and formed their own party. The Whig Party didn't last much longer. What is needed is for a third party that will ultimately displace one of the two major parties. If people see there is a viable alternative to what we have now, things will change. Neither of the two major parties existed at the time the Constitution was ratified. Neither has a lock on immortality.
Just a couple of comments.
It is an historical fact that Serb miners from Novo Brdo (in Kosovo) were used to breech the defenses at Constantinoble.
In conversations with an Orthodox Priest in Gracinica, Kosovo, he referred to Catholics as "heretics". I am Catholic and never realized I was a heretic. LET us, as Christians get over our differences!!
THE BIG Problem I have with the US policy in the Balkans is, no attempt or acknowledgement that the Wahabbists are rapidly spreading their money and influence. The number of Mosques and bearded "Musliemen" are growing by geometric proporition.
During the 1990s, I swallowed the Koolaid that said that the Muslims of the Balkans were all innocent victims and the Serbs the perpetrators of violence. I have now come to a much more complex conclusion.
I know, for example, that during WWII and the Nazi onslaught (and the spreading of the Holocaust into the Balkans), that most (not all) Croats and most (not all) Bosnian, Kosovar, and Albanian Muslims were supportive of the Nazis, and large numbers of Croats and Muslims joined the Waffen SS, from which position they murdered huge numbers of Serbs, Jews, Gypsies, and other undesirables. Most Serbs (not all) opposed the Nazis and a large percentage joined the (overwhelming Serb) Chetnik anti-Nazi resistance. While Yugoslavia was united after the war under a Stalin-resisting (but internally Stalinist) Communist regime led by an ethnic Croat who had NOT joined the Nazis but rather had taken part in the resistance (Josip Broz, better known as Tito) with the goal of smothering ethnic differences, the unresolved disputes and hatreds lay simmering under the surface. After Tito died in 1980, there was no strong charismatic "Yugoslav" figure within the Communist party to hold the disparate nations and ethnic groups together. Milosevic emerged as the leading Serb figure, and played on Serb nationalist aspirations and resentments to maintain his power (many of the Serb resentments, dating back to WWII and before, against Croats and Muslims especially, were justified). By the end of the '80s, with Communism breaking up in the USSR and Eastern Europe, Yugoslavia, without a convincing or charismatic pan-national figure to hold it together or to oversee a peaceful breakup, became during the 1990s a cauldron of bloody civil wars and wars of secession. Slovenia, the most advanced and westernized of the constituent Yugoslav nations, seceded first and most bloodlessly. But the battles for the establishment of Serbia/Montenegro (itself to split apart in the 2000s), Croatia, Bosnia, the Bosnian Serb Republic, and Kosovo were bloody as hell. The narrative in the press of Western Europe and the U.S. was that the Serbs, egged on by leaders like Milosevic and the Bosnian Serb leader Karadzic, were committing atrocities against the Croats and the Muslims (generally depicted as secularized and more European than Islamic) and that none of the atrocities went the other way. The European/U.S. press also provided little or no context about the history of the Serbs against the Nazis and against past Islamic and/or Croat aggression. Serbs in the West, who were aware of their families' situations in the Balkans, couldn't understand why Americans and Western Europeans (especially Germans, who took a strong anti-Serb, pro-Croat/Muslim position from early on) hated them so much, since they (the Serbs) saw themselves as victims.
It has been demonstrated that there were significant Serb-instigated war crimes against the Muslims and, to a lesser extent, the Croats in the Balkans in the 1990s. But it has been far less publicized that there were very significant atrocities and war crimes committed by the Muslims against Serbs (and to a lesser extent by the Croats against the Serbs). This story has reached the West only sporadically. It has also been demonstrated that the 1990s Western image of the peace-loving, slivovitz-sipping, secularized Balkan Muslim (Kosovar or Bosnian) is largely a myth. Significant numbers of jihadis from the Arabian peninsula and from other parts of the Arab/Muslim dominated world were active in the Balkans during that period, were recruiting local Muslims for international jihadist actions, and were murdering Serbs with abandon. This story has been largely kept from the West.
I have now had the antidote to the Koolaid.
dumbledoresarmy:
Who said that?
I have been arguing for years that the reason America is royally screwed in terms of leadership is the lack of a third party to help maintain a balance within congress and to also act as a reasonable party that could assume leadership during elections if the other two main parties are as incompetent as the democrats and republicans are at the moment
I also see the issue in class terms.
After all the American workers do have a revolutionary history, and I know that both Jim Larkin and James Connolly (1916 Rebel leader) were involved with the Wobblies, and that there were great battles against the employers and government.
The rotten thing is the present pro Fascist Islamist movements of the "Left", a totally degenerate bunch
I think the murder of the Trotsky cadre and Trotsky by the Stalinists left a vacumn, both moral and organizational
Yes America needs a party but a revolutionary socialist and Trotskyist party to fight for workers power in America
Such a party must be anti Jihad and must seek to dismantle every mosque in America, and outlaw all Saudi mosque building and other things
You will find some info on Yugoslavia if you turn to
www.4international.wordpress.com
certainly not I. As I mentioned in another post, there has been attrocities on both sides one time or another. Nobody is purely innocent , despite what other may think. There are no absolutes. all croats aren't evil, and all serbs aren't innocent. It is only when we recognize and see our faults that we grow as a nation and as a people. Many croats behave as muslims when they are taken to task for their wrong doings. They look at you as if your are crazy and immediatly start pointing out your faults. Or in the case of a nice looking croat lady I talked to years, ago she immediaetly started cursing out those serbs. So what can I say? I am not a serb or croat or muslim or euro and I really have no background and feeling for ancient balkan history.
dumbledoresarmy:
"I have a question for those who have in this thread spoken almost as if they see *all* Croats qua Croats as born-devils, destined from the womb and the cradle to be evil, wicked, sadistic persecutors, deserving only Punishment for ever and ever."
I am American of Hungarian heritage and I know many Serbs and Croats in my personal life. I have never met a Serb who said all Croats, let alone second-generation half-Croats, were bad or evil people who should be punished or murdered. Many of the Croats I know are good people who understand the threat of Islam is far greater than any threats the Serbs may pose them.
Nevertheless, the problem for the most part isn't individual Croats but the Croatian state which has never undergone a process of de-Nazification. After WWII Croat Communist Tito knew that many Serbs resented what the Croat Nazis did to them, so instead of dealing with the horrible reality of the Nazi genocide he ignored it, tried to hide the truth, because he believed it was the only way to get the Serbs and Croats to live together in the same country again. Consequently, in the 1990s once Communism fell Croatia saw a revival of Nazi ideas and even to this day the Croatian State has failed to condemn its Nazi past. Croatia is full of neo-Nazi Ustasa sympathizers, and some of their most popular public personalities, like Marko Perkovic Thompson, are avid neo-Nazis with tens of thousands of supporters behind them.
This is the essence of the problem and the reason why the Serbs and Croats have thus far failed to realize that they have to unite against the Islamist threat that is consuming that part of the world before it's too late.
Felix:
When your Trotskyite party is formed, launches a revolution, and follows its namesake's lead in strategy and tactics, I hope you are thrown into the front lines against extremely determined reactionaries--in short, given the choice of possibly being shot by your enemies vs. certainly being shot by your own cadres to the rear. It was how Trotsky won the Russian civil war.
Trotsky's losing to Stalin and ultimately getting Ramon Mercader's ice pick stuck in into his vicious, bloodthirsty head is proof that God probably heard some Russian's prayers for mercy on his country. Given how Trotsky ran his forces in the Russian Civil War, he would have machine-gunned recalcitrant Russian peasants or, to spare bullets, threatened his troops with shooting while they bashed in heads with shovels had he won the power struggle with Stalin. A Trotskyite Russia probably would have been Democratic Kampuchea on a large scale.
Yes, Trotsky was an incorruptible, sterling idealist--just the sort of man who never, never, ever thinks he could possibly be wrong, and that since her serves a great ideal, whatever means he uses to reach it are justified.
Also, I doubt a Trotskyite Party would be any bulwark at all against radical Islam. All Marxists at this time seem to see the Furor Islamicus as a wonderful weapon to turn against the decadent Western bourgeoisie (and are too blind to see that they themselves are part of the decadent Western bourgeoisie now in radical Islam's sights).
Indeed, all Trotskyites I've known seem to share the common Marxist disease--an intense, nihilistic hatred at the civilization that reared them that explodes into a great, black f@5t of rage that leaves the victorious "revolution" squatting in a slum surrounded by desert. Indeed, in this, Marxism is a lot like Islam.
As for the Wobblies, how much luck will an exploited working class will have once there's only one employer--the Nomenklatyura who control the state? I mean, even in Democratic Kampuchea, some were still more equal than others. I suspect the only reason why the exiled Trotsky rediscovered his youthful egalitarianism was because he lost the perks of being part of the new Soviet elite. The Wobblies' descendants should be grateful that their forefathers lost.
Now, as a fan of the late Saul Bellow, let me say that I DO NOT think that the only good Trotskyite is a dead one. An ex-one is fine by me.
Still, the only thing I have to say about Marxism, whether Stalinist, Trotskyite, Maoist, Gramscian, or whatever, is that I hope I live to see the day when anyone talking about Marx will hear the reply, "Which Marx? Groucho, Harpo, Chico, or Beppo?"
Let's hope all parties stop being divided and unite against the global jihad (hopefully) before the global jihad factions unite against the world under their political Mahdi. However, look how easy it is to divide us even in conversations here.
Exactly.
A "song" from Thompson:
Here is what he is singing about:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jasenovac_concentration_camp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stara_Gradi%C5%A1ka_concentration_camp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ante_Paveli%C4%87
Forgot to explain who is "Maks":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maks_Luburi%C4%87
It does not do to demonize either the Serbs or the Croats. All of them had the unhappy lot of living at the fault lines of several civilizations.
Further, the Yugoslav experiment further underscores the fatuousness of even "independent" Marxism. Had the erstwhile Croat Austro-Hungarian master sergeant Josef Broz Tito truly fostered a national identity, the knives would not have come out the minute his corpse turned cold.
As for the bombing of the Serbs being part of corporate or political America's drive for hegemonism, I disagree. It was a strictly reactive action taken when our European allies were clamoring for us to "do something", and it just so happened that the propaganda that reached us was about Bosniaks and Kosovars being victims of Serb ethnic cleansing. Wall Street loves money, not blood; and, much as I dislike the Clintons, I give them credit for having pacifist instincts (why, it even takes something like the 9/11 attack to get a Texas cowboy like Dubya Bush to call out the troops--and this after he ran a campaign about getting us out of nation-building overseas!). The rest of the world looks on us Americans as war mongering barbarians chiefly because they're always trying to figure out ways to get us to protect them from themselves or their neighbors; and secondarily because their intellectualoids swallowed the Marxist koolaid which has to blame someone else when The Revolution fails to unleash the promised productive forces or when the newly victorious liberated masses of Viet Nam and Kampuchea decide to have a go at each other.
小资产阶级万万岁！
OT--but here are Trotsky's last words: "Dos zolst ik heb vi der lokh im kupf!"
The whole mess in that part of the world is the fault of the two serbian nationist leader who support the Nazie in WWII. T1to would have being better off excuteion them both for they crimes.Also too many on this board are pure racist for being Islamistprobic. Than black government top offical was target by than far rightwing christian named Andrew Breithart than foreign who needed to be deport back where he came come. One he illegality video than NAACP event and edit that video illegality. His name sound Serbian to me.
Jamie:
Thanks for the great post & links.
Ruslan Tokhchukov, EnragedSince1999.
I find it rather worrying that so many people are using this blog to re-enact old conflicts. Does it really matter what happened in the 15th Century or in WWII? We have to deal with the current situation.
The fact is that NATO backed the wrong side in Bosnia, and particularly in Kosovo. We were all fed a one-sided diet of Serb atrocities by the media to get our support for military intervention. Like many others I fell for it at the time, but I now know better. Milosevic, Izetbegovic and Tudjman were all pretty unpleasant people who were happy to condone atrocities by their followers. Izetbegovic had already stated that he wanted to set up an Islamic state, and NATO's policy encouraged him to do just that.
If, however, the Bosnian war took place in the aftermath of the liberation of Kuwait when relations with the Islamic world were cordial, the same cannot be said of Kosovo. The bombing campaign took place just months after the East African embassy bombings. The American envoy in Kosovo, Robert Gelbard, had described the KLA as "a terrorist group which has claimed responsibility for attacks on Serb targets". Yet President Clinton chose to ignore these warnings and launch the NATO bombing campaign, which resulted in the ethnic cleansing of Kosovo's Serb population.
The outcome is that we now have two Islamic countries in Europe, both of which contain large numbers of trained and battle hardened terrorists. Astonishingly Western governments still believe they can work with "friendly Islamic states", whether in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq or Saudi Arabia. Even in Chechnya their policy is ambiguous. When are they going to learn that no Islamic state is ever truly friendly to the West? The simple rules to apply to these conflicts should surely be
1) Muslims are never, and will never be, our friends, and
2) Non-Muslims fighting Muslims are always our friends, no matter who they are.
It really should be that simple. Just back the right side and back them to the hilt, whether they be Serbs in the Balkans, Christians in Africa, Israelis in the Middle East, Russians in Chechnya, Indians in Kashmir, Buddhists in Thailand, or Christians in Indonesia and the Philippines.
Come back after the hashish has worn out so that you make sense.
The Crusades happened because the Muslims had conquered at least half of Europe. It's time for the Second Crusades.
LOL!!!
Unfathomable historical political blunder by US. Such appeasement has enboldened the jihadists to strike terror in 360 degrees.
Pam M
Good posting.
testing
I was simply being jobless and I always believed that a coin had two sides, so decided to find out why the Serbians are so "Evil" cos I was planning for a vacation to Croatia. Then after heavy googling it slowly dawned to me that the west had been unfair to the Serbians and the Balkan is one big oven baking eachother. By now I decided that I will emotionally never have a vacation in a place with so much blood in its past. After reading some real good websites like : http://www.srpska-mreza.com/GUIDE/contents.html and comparing them with the more 'popular' media and documents, I was really surprised and felt bad for Serbia. Of-course the Serbians are not free of fault but most of the atrocities committed to them were not seriously considered and their noble parts in the WWs were never duly recognized. but their faults were blown-up. All the bloodshed in the region made me sad but it did do a good in oneway - I was really happy to be an Indian ! No offence here but you can compare India to the entire eastern Europe or more when it comes to comparing the amount of different ethnic cultures in a single country which has 1652 languages (29 of those have more than 1 million native speakers) and still we don t bleed horribly like this. We do fight among ourselves but we never hated another race so badly leading to a genocide ! Most of the Indians are tolerant and friendly with each other as long as their kids don t fall in love with the other class/religion/language/sect ... But even India did have a horrible nightmare and that was when the Muhamedhians looted the country. Raided the towns and destroyed everything on the way but we had some good Muslim rulers too in the past and ordinary civilians are good friends with oneanother. Even then there was and there is something running cold in their veins which is always a threat. The Muslims are very mischievous but whatever they are ... I pray for peace to every victim affected by genocides and other inhuman acts. It is really sad to know that so many people are slaughtered (sometimes or rather most of the times face worser fate than being simply killed) because of their differences and all this under the nose of UN ! It is not only Kosovo but it is happening even in Srilanka where many mass graves are still unknown to the rest of the world and not to forget their ethnic cleansing techniques. I personally wouldn t really mind Kashmir being given to Pakistan if that is where it belongs and if the Kashmiris will be happy because of it but I know more than for sure what is happening to the Kashmiris now and what would happen if it goes to Pakistan. I know for sure that it won t go to good Muslim hands but will be used as a "psychedelicfarmVille" with most of the profits going to the Lords of the village and then the reminder used as a capital to conquer more land to grow cannabis ! Oh God please bring peace to us .... Krishna, Jesus, Alla, Jehovah, please listen to us and save the world.
Well my last post was way out of the topic but I posted coz i felt like doing ! n I also want to thank you ppl for showing some insight in this issue. I also understood feelings of a real Serbian civilian. It was different from reading them as a fact. God bless Serbia !