Nation columnist who believed Times Square jihadist was from the "far right" whines about my speaking to the FBI

An acute characteristic of the left generally: Often wrong, but never in doubt.

Rabble rouser.... no, no, no.

"Handsome" rabble rouser.

That's better ;-)

In the past few years, I have learned that Islam is everything Mr Spencer has explained it to be....

Islam is far more devious than many realize...it is good to get the truth out because we know Muslims really hate it when the Infidels know the truth about Islam.....

It is far easier to debate Muslims and Muslim apologists when you know the truth and you have the facts and you are able to recognize the Islamic smoke screens....

When it comes to telling the truth about Islam, being called a bigot these days is a sign of respect. Wear it like a badge of honour Robert! I do!

Gadzooks!

An "extremist, right-wing anti-Muslim rabble rouser"!

Robert, as my mother used to say - "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me."

No one can disagree with you unless he's "whining" or "dhimmi." If a Muslim makes a good point, he's either "hypocrite" or "practicing taquiya." One never feels a sense of engagement here because Spencer's mind is already made up, and whatever he and his followers might learn, it only reinforces what they already think they know.

Where I'm from, once someone makes up their mind about an issue and doesn't consider another viewpoint, we don't call them a scholar. We call them dogmatists, a term extends to Spencer as well as those he most criticizes.

Dreyfuss is an AINO...American in name only...I'm sick of AINO's....When Mahoundians finally pack up and move out, I hope they take their AINO's with them...

Lefty Dreyfuss actually quotes from "Loonwatch!" Like it's an authoritative source!

"Loonwatch!" Says it all, doesn't it?

"Oh, really? And so, what "good points" have you made recently, Yusef? Please, enlighten us with that world-famous Mohammedan intellectualism! "

Well, for example, I pointed out that in Malaysia and Indonesia, which are majority Muslim, the murder rate is far lower than the United States, though you clasify Muslims as violent and hate-filled.

The rate of homicide is 2.36 and 1.05 / 100k, respectively. In the United States, it is 5.5 / 100k. Maybe I should get some signs on taxis in New York. "Want to avoid being murdered by a violent thug? Move to Muslim Indonesia!"

Surely every nation has issues and I would never think to make Indonesia an example of a peaceful, well developed country (the recent madness regarding Church burnings, for example.) Still, it does make one think, to compare those rates.

Anyway, anytime I try to make a point like that, rather than engage me on an academic level, we have people who call me Mahomedian, or tell me to go back to whatever-stan, or that everything out of my mouth is a lie. One person spent several paragraphs picking apart a single gramatical error. These people are Spencer's comrades, the ones he surrounds himself with, and I find that very dishonest intellectually.

Mr. Dreyfuss is in danger of being drummed out of the left-liberal journalists' union: in neither his May 3 article nor his July 26 article does he slip in the words "racist" or "racism", which every good liberal knows are obligatory when commenting on either the Tea Party or on critics of Islam. I'm surprised his editors at "The Nation" let his articles get into print without them.

Lefty Dreyfuss has a website + contact e-mail if anyone would care to enlighten him concerning his ignorance about Islam and CAIR:

http://www.robertdreyfuss.com/

@Yusef UK

Why don't you comment on the topic instead of editorializing on the wonderfullness of islam?

It's not that posters won't engage you intellectually, it's that you come across as muhammadan moron.

Try a little harder!

LOL!

:-)

(keep smiling! muhammad is dead, but Jesus LIVES FOREVER!

Robert Dreyfuss sounds a lot like Bloomberg. Proof positive that the Left despises the Right more than they despise Islamic jihad.

Yusuf YK wanted academic level...He got at least a dozen, and where is he?

Yusef. Did you ever hear anything about the mass murder of Chinese citizens in Indonesia of the low crime rate? Did you ever hear about a place called East Timor? As your true nabi, accept no substitutes, I, nabi ZK (pbum) , was just wondering. I don't think anything like that has occurred in the USA since the indian wars. Correct me, your true nabi (pbum), if I, nabi ZK (pbum) , am wrong about that.

Any truth in this post is due to ZK, most exalted and any error is mine. And ZK probably knows.

nabi ZK (pbum) - true nabi to all mohametan and pseudo mohametan trolls

Shhh. Listen. I, nabi ZK (pbum), hear the chirping of crickets.

nabi ZK (pbum)

BTW Yusef, we can continue this discussion on the "Church Burnings" thread, if you would care to join your true nabi, nabi ZK (pbum), at that cyber location. This way we can avoid going off topic.

nabi ZK (pbum)

"One never feels a sense of engagement here because Spencer's mind is already made up... -- Yusuf YK

I don't know about any lack of engagement or any dogmatism in Spencer, but one thing about both Spencer and Fitzgerald has aroused in me a vague sense of wonder tending to veer toward disquiet: and that is that neither of them, to my knowledge, has avowed any process of development of thought over the years about Islam. I know I have slowly been waking up to Islam beginning in earnest post-911, and this waking up process has entailed quite a few developments, if not alterations, in my thought about the issue; and I think this is the case for the vast majority of Jihad Watch supporters. However, when reading Spencer or Fitzgerald, a curious absence is noticeable of any sense of process in the career of their thought about this subject: it's almost like Spencer and Fitzgerald just popped out of an aboriginal Egg long ago, in the mists of the pre-911 epoch, already wholly formed as Islamorealists.

Of course, many analysts, thinkers, pundits, observers, intellectuals, scholars, etc., manifest this trait of being -- and of always having been -- Finished Thinkers, as though they never questioned, never doubted, never evolved certain views, never even -- horrors! -- actually changed their mind! Indeed, my favorite philosopher, Eric Voegelin, was, according to colleagues, maddeningly that way to the point of seeming insufferably arrogant (even though his oeuvre is dramatically cleft with a Before and After as autobiographically recounted in his Introduction to his fourth volume of his magisterial series, Order and History, wherein he analyzes his own change of mind about his own methodology).

And I am not unaware of the likelihood that the venue and context of both Spencer's and Fitzgerald's presentations need not afford glimpses into the evolution that may underpin them. Nevertheless, it would make them more, if not "human", at least familial, if once in a while they admitted such commonality with the rest of us.

Indeed George. He did not respond. Drat and double drat because this nabi, nabi ZK (pbum), wanted to discuss the repression of the Papuan people in Iryan Jaya aka Occupied West Papua. End the occupation! Freedom and independence for the Papuans and all other people under evil mohametan occupation everywhere in the world. That of course includes mohametan occupied Yathrib and Mecca. All holy sites must be returned to their rightful owners and the mohametans dispossessed of ALL territories taken by force. There is no statute of limitations because the mohametans have not and will not end their war on the rest of humanity.

nabi ZK (pbum)

...this rant brought to you by direct revelation from the ZK exalted and mega cool...

Re. development of thought.

I recall reading, somewhere, a description of Mr Spencer as a student on the University of North Carolina campus, engaging in lively discussion with the Muslims who were even then to be found on the campus.

And as for Mr Fitzgerald: since 'Hugh Fitzgerald' is a nom de plume and I have not a clue who he *really* is, though I have one or two semi-intelligent guesses, to none of which I would be prepared to swear, it is pretty much impossible to judge what 'process' of learning may have taken place. And Hugh, too, is one of those who is not that interested in the modern 'me, myself and I and how I came to be the amazingly clever person that I am' genre of writing so ably exemplified by a certain book entitled "The Audacity of Hope".

But in a thread some years ago, Hugh wrote a comment in which I think we see a reflection of his own experience (remember, Hugh is older than most of us - many internal clues in his writings bespeak a person who was an active adult and observer during the Cold War)

Here is the link for the relevant thread, which should take you to the first in-forum appearance of Hugh's 'history boys' essay:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2006/07/pakistani-education-minister-jihad-an-integral-part-of-curriculum.html#c247268

To which, a poster named Caroline responded:

"Yes Hugh - we can read all that [Hugh’s ‘History Boys’ essay, listing the sources and the scholars].

"Or we can merely get one casual email post in our overflowing email boxes saying –
“Hey! Did you know that the prophet Muhammad (whom Muslims worship as the most perfect man) was actually a mass-murderer? A thief? A rapist? A slave trader? A pedophile?”

"And we "rubes" can think to our ignorant "rube" selves - no bloody way!

"And then do about 2 hours of homework (1 solid day max for the skeptical) and confirm to ourselves - oh hell yes effing way!

"And in several short hours (OK- a an entire day for the skeptical) put 2 and 2 together - what the Koran says + what the likes of UBL and Hamas and Hezbollah say + the massive obfuscation coming from the likes of CAIR and Tariq Ramadan and the MSA say

(a 5 minute lesson in the meaning of taqiyya takes care of that ambiguity) + what a rapid perusal of world history would confirm (OK - to be fair - give that a whole extra day) -

"and one readily goes from no way in hell! to Holy s**t! This is for real!

"It ain't rocket science.

"And seriously, infidels (both westerners and easterners) ought not to insult their dignity and intelligence by pretending it is.

"Old Hans Christian Anderson will no doubt live on as the wisest sage the west has ever known where Islam is concerned.

"A fairy tale ostensibly designed for children yes. But once one realizes how really childlike we all actually are (look at the huge influence of Hollywood for example which is merely high school writ large in many ways), one won't be so inclined to scoff at such a fairy tale.

"Which is my blunt way of saying that by all means, those so inclined should read Schacht, and Hurgronje and Tisdall.

"But also to point out that some of us won't.

"Some of us would just as soon look at the noses on the end of our faces and have no doubt whatsoever about what Islam is all about.

"In the end, one need only look at Islam's source - Muhammad - and confirm just a few facts about the man himself (and those facts are easily confirmed for those who are willing to look) - and all the rest just falls easily into place."

- Posted by: Caroline at July 25, 2006 9:48 PM

To which Hugh responded {and this is the comment I'd like everyone to read - dda}

"You are right.

"Whatever manages to supply enough of the truth, and to allow one to convey that truth convincingly to others so they begin to comprehend the nature of the belief-system (try not to call it a "religion") of Islam, surely does not require all kinds of study.

"But such study, when one has the time, merely deepens one's horrified convictions.

"**Ordinarily, as you read more about something, you more and more see the thing in its complexity, and shades of gray, and are more and more hesitant to pass judgment.** {nota bene - I think Hugh is speaking from his own experience here - and it rings true - dda}.

"With Islam,

"the more you find out about what it teaches,

" the more you find out about the example of Muhammad,

"the more you find out about what Islam does to its adherents,

"the more you find out about Jihad in time and space,

"the more you find out about the fate of non-Muslims under Muslim rule, the more horrified you become.

"But it isn't all necessary.

"Sometimes a single thing will do it.

"Here's the single thing about Iran that often does it: the fact that when he came to power, one of Khomeini's very first acts (perhaps the first) was to lower the marriageable age of girls to nine.

"Tell that to people you know. And then tell them why."

- Posted by: Hugh at July 25, 2006 10:41 PM

And here, to go with what I posted above, is another window into Hugh's soul, as vouchsafed to another poster, in this thread from November 2005:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2005/11/uk-bomber-attacks-muslim-leaders.html#c143902

A poster calling him or herself "T-Ham" began the conversation thus:

"There is nothing, and I mean NOTHING sicker than the average muslim mind.

"The screamingly bizarre conspiracies; the unabashed dichotomy of standards;

"the blatantly unapologetic desire to kill, destroy, and desecrate coupled with a hair-trigger intolerance and perception of the most minute actions as earth-shattering, cataclysmic affronts to islam;

"the schizophrenic combination of victim-hood and superiority complex;

"the monumental disregard for honesty coupled with the unshakeable belief that the rest of the world actually believes their lies;

"the effortless diversions and heartfelt projections of their own black-souled evil onto others;

"the paranoia, the sense of entitlement; the relished idea that revenge would be theirs, soon;

"the squalor of their culture coupled with a curious arrogance;

" the endless capacity for hysterical, foaming, frothing rage; I could go on.

"How a woman {a murder-'martyr' - dda} could look into the eyes of mothers and children and, far from crumbling in self-disgust at her intentions, proceed to try to turn them into a collage of tissue, organs, and bone, is horrifyingly unfathomable to me.

"I started investigating islam after having avoided the WTC on 9/11 due to a scheduling error.

"I went into it with a truly open mind.

"Now, 4 years later, I'm convinced that thoughout human history, there has never been a threat of the magnitude posed by islam today, homicidally bolstered by the technology that it has, out of a necessity born of its own shameful lack of innovation, initiative, and creative spirit and drive, parasitized from other countries.

"This problem is not going to go away on its own.

"The threat that this fascist, primitive, and murderous ideology poses must be eliminated for the good of all the family of man. Every other religion on the planet can find ways to coexist.

" Islam is an absolutist ideology, only absolutist solutions can be effective."
- Posted by: t-ham at November 16, 2005 8:13 PM

To which heartfelt cry Hugh responded as follows:

T-Ham--

"That first breathless paragraph,

" in which the words come flying out, as you furiously type as fast as you think,

"and the more you think the more furious you become, was quite something.

"I know the feeling.

"You keep thinking it can't be like this. This must be some horror movie.

"But it can. It is."

- Posted by: Hugh at November 16, 2005 9:33 PM.

On the evidence of these two exchanges on the comments floor, I state that it appears clear enough to me that Our Hugh, like the rest of us, has at some time, and over time, proceeded from a dim apprehension - a mere pricking of the thumbs, perhaps - to an icily rational realization of Clear and Present Danger.

If the subject is immutable, then what kind of development in one's thinking about it can occur other than a greater comprehension of the subject?
My knowledge is limited, but it is my understanding that all Islamic schools of thought except Shi'ism (which includes about 15% of all Muslims) have closed the door on re-interpretation, ijtihad, of the Quran and Sunnah. In current geopolitics the paramount issue is whether a reformation in Islamic doctrine is possible. For example, see the discussion at http://www.jihadwatch.org/2007/11/pure-islam-and-michael-van-der-galien.html.
I have not read all of RS's books so I can not intelligently comment on his evolution in thought on the subject, but I would like to see him write more about the various efforts involving Islamic reformation. It's important and few know more than he does.
p.s I reserve my right to comment on the incessant and illogical conflation of liberal/leftist with dhimmi.