Sharia in New Jersey: Muslim husband rapes wife, judge sees no sexual assault because Islam forbids wives to refuse sex

Muhammad said: "If a husband calls his wife to his bed [i.e. to have sexual relation] and she refuses and causes him to sleep in anger, the angels will curse her till morning" (Bukhari 4.54.460).

He also said: "By him in Whose Hand lies my life, a woman can not carry out the right of her Lord, till she carries out the right of her husband. And if he asks her to surrender herself [to him for sexual intercourse] she should not refuse him even if she is on a camel's saddle" (Ibn Majah 1854).

And now a New Jersey judge sees no evidence that a Muslim committed sexual assault of his wife -- not because he didn't do it, but because he was acting on his Islamic beliefs: "This court does not feel that, under the circumstances, that this defendant had a criminal desire to or intent to sexually assault or to sexually contact the plaintiff when he did. The court believes that he was operating under his belief that it is, as the husband, his desire to have sex when and whether he wanted to, was something that was consistent with his practices and it was something that was not prohibited."

Luckily, the appellate court overturned this decision, and a Sharia ruling by an American court has not been allowed to stand. This time.

"Cultural Defense Accepted as to Nonconsensual Sex in New Jersey Trial Court, Rejected on Appeal," by Eugene Volokh in The Volokh Conspiracy, July 23 (thanks to CameoRed):

From today's opinion in S.D. v. M.J.R. (N.J. Super. Ct. App. Div.), a domestic restraining order case:
The record reflects that plaintiff, S.D., and defendant, M.J.R., are citizens of Morocco and adherents to the Muslim faith. They were wed in Morocco in an arranged marriage on July 31, 2008, when plaintiff was seventeen years old. [FN1] The parties did not know each other prior to the marriage. On August 29, 2008, they came to New Jersey as the result of defendant's employment in this country as an accountant....

[Long discussion of the wife's allegations of abuse, which included several instances of nonconsensual sex as well as other abuse, omitted for space reasons. -EV]

Upon their return to the apartment, defendant forced plaintiff to have sex with him while she cried. Plaintiff testified that defendant always told her

this is according to our religion. You are my wife, I c[an] do anything to you. The woman, she should submit and do anything I ask her to do.

After having sex, defendant took plaintiff to a travel agency to buy a ticket for her return to Morocco. However the ticket was not purchased, and the couple returned to the apartment. Once there, defendant threatened divorce, but nonetheless again engaged in nonconsensual sex while plaintiff cried. Later that day, defendant and his mother took plaintiff to the home of the Imam and, in the presence of the Imam, his wife, and defendant's mother, defendant verbally divorced plaintiff....[...]

While recognizing that defendant had engaged in sexual relations with plaintiff against her expressed wishes in November 2008 and on the night of January 15 to 16, 2009, the judge did not find sexual assault or criminal sexual conduct to have been proven. He stated:

This court does not feel that, under the circumstances, that this defendant had a criminal desire to or intent to sexually assault or to sexually contact the plaintiff when he did. The court believes that he was operating under his belief that it is, as the husband, his desire to have sex when and whether he wanted to, was something that was consistent with his practices and it was something that was not prohibited.

After acknowledging that this was a case in which religious custom clashed with the law, and that under the law, plaintiff had a right to refuse defendant's advances, the judge found that defendant did not act with a criminal intent when he repeatedly insisted upon intercourse, despite plaintiff's contrary wishes.

Having found acts of domestic violence consisting of assault and harassment to have occurred, the judge turned to the issue of whether a final restraining order should be entered. He found such an order unnecessary, vacated the temporary restraints previously entered in the matter and dismissed plaintiff's domestic violence action....

The appellate court reversed this absurd decision, saying:

As the judge recognized, the case thus presents a conflict between the criminal law and religious precepts. In resolving this conflict, the judge determined to except defendant from the operation of the State's statutes as the result of his religious beliefs. In doing so, the judge was mistaken.

A close call. But no doubt more of this is to come.

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The judge is mistaken...No, the judge is incompetent...

This judge should be run out of town...This is the worst kind of appeasement, next it will be legal for Mahoundians to honor kill, and execute apostates, if religious conviction exempts them from criminal law...It also legalizes jihad, and the persecution of Jews and Christians...Of course his ruling got overturned, it is absurd...Now lets break out the tar and feathers...

I wonder if, in the future, four pious Muslim men will have to back her story that she was sexually assaulted. Oh wait, I guess they wouldn't be pious if they just stood by and watched.

In New Jersey, judges effectively legislating Sharia or anything else should recuse themselves or be removed as judges. But that's in the U.S. of A.

Who knows what would happen in plain old Jersey.

Can we purchase a ticket for the judge? Perhaps he could move to Morocco and become a Sharia judge there.

I, for one, would not want to appear before the bench in his court.

Close calls like this only underscore the necessity of pre-emptive action; as in heading the leftists off at the pass. Which is exactly what Oklahoma will be doing on this Fall's ballot. Okies will have the opportunity to amend their state constitution to affirm positively that only American law is to be applied in OK courtrooms, and no foreign law. This is intended to blunt the dicta of Justice Ginsburg, and the actions of the lame-brained trial judge in this case, of bringing foreign law "enlightenments" into American jurisprudence.

We should not only applaud the brave and farsighted OK legislators who brought this proposal forward, we should also copy their actions in our own states so as to inoculate our own states. As this case demonstrates, looney leftist judges, left to their own devices, will seek to bring in their particular versions of feel-good justice. Shari'a is right there, ready to slither in.

"The court believes that he was operating under his belief..."

Oh, OK, well let's just excuse all the Nazis too since they were operating under their "beliefs" that Jews should be exterminated.

Newsflash to idiot Judge: Islam is a mass-murder uber-misogynist political ideology masquerading as a religion.


Forcing a 17-year-old girl into an "arranged" marriage is pimping and any consequential sex is rape.

Sounds like New Jersey needs a lesson in Fughettaboutit. Send some people over from Staten Island to show them how it's done.

Got a Tea Party here in north shore Massachusetts this afternoon. So if anyone hears New England MSM news stations ranting about "racists" that's probably us.

I got the email from Amazon today that The Post-American President has been shipped! Good reading next week.

And how much did this trial, the lawyers, the judge, the court personnel, tutto, cost the taxpayers of New Jersey? And how many other such cases might there be, where the laws and customs of Islam conflict with, and flatly contradict, the laws and customs of this and every other advanced Western country? Aren't the billions now spent, in the countries of Western Europe, in transfer payments -- free education and free health care at a level impossible in any Muslim country, free or greatly-subsidized housing (some "immigrant" -- that is "Muslim immigrant" families have been receiving, as a story in The New York Times about the new austerity measures in Great Britain noted, up to $150,000 dollars a year in rent subsidies, presumably because of the large numbers of children, for houses (!) in the posher parts of London), and whatever else they can inveigle or wheedle or fiddle out of the system -= quite enough? Aren't the billions we now spend on domestic security because of the threat of Muslim terrorist acts within our countries quite enough? Must we also devote precious resources to legal matters that result from the permanent conflict between Shari'a and the law of the land?

And all of these billions and billion are in addition to the three trillion squandered in Iraq and Afghanistan, money spent based on a false theory that "prosperity" and "unity" can be brought to Muslim lands if only we spend and spend, and an even more false idea, that such "prosperity" will somehow modify, or loosen the hold, of Islam on the minds of Muslims, and hence diminish the hostility toward us, the Infidel furnishers of these vast amounts of every kind of aid.

What does it take to grasp reality?

The killing of a wayward or disobedient daughter, sister, or wife is also "consistent with his [Moslem] practices and it was something that was not prohibited." Are the NJ courts willing to let murderers off, too?

So Islamic religious practices (Sharia law) trumps the laws in the American legal system in this judges mind if your a Muslim. Yep --never mind American law, lets just apply sharia. And the poor woman thought somehow she was in America. When did this judge study sharia law? Is he going to move to Egypt or someplace in the Middle east?

Good - I am in the market for a slave, normally illegal, sooooo here's the plan:

1. Move to NJ
2. "Convert" to Islam
3. Procure slave.

Mission accomplished - that was easy....

Post-Christian Western civilization--it has become so open-minded that its brains have fallen right out of its head.

Read the text of the court opinion linked above, if you haven't already done so. To think that the judge could find that sort of conduct (described in disturbing detail), and that type of physical and emotional trauma excusable by any stretch of the imagination is beyond appalling.

Frankly, to hold people to a lower standard by exempting them from our legal requirements is not multicultural magnanimity, but a form of patronizing bigotry that made the wife a victim not only of her husband, but of a judge who was sworn to equitably apply the laws to protect victims of domestic violence.

Instead, the original judge here has accepted outright the marginalized status to which Sharia relegated her, and no judicial conduct could be more inimical to American laws and values.

If I were a New Jersey resident/voter, I'd like to know who this un-named judge is. And there ought to be more official sanctions for his conduct than the reversal of his decision -- as welcome a move as that is.

@Marisol: "patronizing bigotry"

Yep. LOL. Impossible to be more concise than that!

At the same time that the judge depises Muslims as unteachable idiots and women as mere chunks of meat, he also implies that this is the true reality of human nature, much better stated, in his mind, than it is the constitution of these United States.

this is really f...up, where in jersey was this, I live here and I did not hear about this

After examining such hadiths, the famous muslim scholar Al-Qurtuby writes:""A woman may be likened to a sheep (even) a cow or a camel...for all are ridden." Tafsir, v.15 p.172
http://crossmuslims.blogspot.com/2010/07/perfect-man.html

If possible, this lower court judge should be impeached on the basis of gross incompetence. Impeachment is a tricky thing and the basis for impeachment for judges still remains a debatable issue, but here we have incompetence rising to virtually criminal negligence and abuse of one's office.

It's interesting that the appeal court stated that "Because it is doubtlessly true that the laws defining the crimes of sexual assault and criminal sexual contact are neutral laws of general application, and because defendant knowingly engaged in conduct that violated those laws, the judge erred when he refused to recognize those violations as a basis for a determination that defendant had committed acts of domestic violence."

This foregrounds the civilized American legal system and relegates the 'have a f... when you feel like it' Sharia' law of Islam to the scrapheap of troglodyte societies.

"'After examining such hadiths, the famous muslim scholar Al-Qurtuby writes: 'A woman may be likened to a sheep (even) a cow or a camel...for all are ridden.' Tafsir, v.15 p.172
http://crossmuslims.blogspot.com/2010/07/perfect-man.html"
-- from a posting above

Well, when Al-Qurtub in his Qur'anic commentary (Tafsir)notes that "a woman may be likened to a sheep, a cow, or a camel," this naturally puts one in mind of some celebrated passages by the tremendously learned theologian Ayatollah Khomeini in his “Tahrirolvasyleh”:

"A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as young as a baby. However, he should not penetrate vaginally, but sodomising the child is acceptable. If a man does penetrate and damage the child then, he should be responsible for her subsistence all her life. This girl will not count as one of his four permanent wives and the man will not be eligible to marry the girl’s sister… It is better for a girl to marry at such a time when she would begin menstruation at her husband’s house, rather than her father’s home. Any father marrying his daughter so young will have a permanent place in heaven. ["Tahrirolvasyleh", fourth edition, Qom, Iran, 1990]

A man can have sex with animals such as sheep, cows, camels and so on. However, he should kill the animal after he has his orgasm. He should not sell the meat to the people in his own village, but selling the meat to a neighbouring village is reasonable.

If one commits the act of sodomy with a cow, a ewe, or a camel, their urine and their excrement become impure and even their milk may no longer be consumed. The animal must then be killed as quickly as possible and burned.

Wine and all intoxicating beverages are impure, but opium and hashish are not.

If a man sodomises the son, brother, or father of his wife after their marriage, the marriage remains valid."

Sheeps, cows, camels, baby girls -- oh, those who teach and write texts about Family Law and Domestic Violence are surely going to have their hands full, all over the West, in decades to come.

This is mind blowingly, not stupid but evil. Religion should never trump law. This judge has violated his office, and should be promptly booted. I'm not aresisdent ogf NJ but I would like to know and maybe send a letter to the NJ mayor or govenor, or even the president to get this guy removed. Rape is rape, regardless of "intent". And that's not mentioning the betrayal of the constitution by trying to implimrent portions of sharia law.

Islam Macht Frei, I was thinking along the same lines, only in regard to a man wanting to ditch the old ball-and-chain.

1) convert to Islam
2) take wifey on a trip to NJ
3) once there, kill her, and claim she was disobedient

Case closed, no more wife, no expensive divorce, no divvying-up of property.

The wife, in this instance, didn't give up and appealed to a higher court. What about the countless plaintiffs that have neither the resolve, or the knowledge that their are options, or throw up their hands that I can't fight a system that's flawed by sloth or bias, or financial resources to persue relief?

In my dealings with the court I have been told by my legal counsel that he dare not try to bring to light and make a judge be accountable for incompetance. The punitive sanctions, IF applied at all, have no teeth.

He would be left trying to practice law, having earned the reputation of the vigilante judge reputation destroyer amongst the judge and his peers, and to have his words treated respectfully without prejudice. It would be an act of professional suicide.


"If the islam fits, you must acquit."

Within our inside-out judicial system, islam is allowed consideration as a legitimate factor only when it is used to acquit, never to convict. "Allah made me do it," covers a lot of criminal ground...

I trust that the judge has been denounced for such a blatant act of Islamophobia.

The idiot judge should be made to repeat 100 times.........I am in America; ONLY American laws are to be applied in America; Other legal systems have no standing in America.

"If the islam fits, you must acquit."

George, the truth of it, the goofy reality, and the clever way you turned a famous quote to express it had me laugh. Thanks.

Sharia in New Jersey: Muslim husband rapes wife, judge sees no sexual assault because Islam forbids wives to refuse sex
...............

My God—what happened to "No means No" and the long struggle to have marital rape recognized as a serious crime? All gone, in this judge's estimation, where the rights of women and the rights of an individual to their own person—not to mention simple human decency—gives way to an even more PC form—that of bowing to a non-Western creed, no matter how odious its tenets.

More:

The court believes that he was operating under his belief that it is, as the husband, his desire to have sex when and whether he wanted to, was something that was consistent with his practices and it was something that was not prohibited."
...............

What if he was? Ignorance of the law is no excuse—and his actions were sure as hell illegal here in the United States.


This creep *raped his teenage wife while she cried*—at least twice.

More:

Having found acts of domestic violence consisting of assault and harassment to have occurred, the judge turned to the issue of whether a final restraining order should be entered. He found such an order unnecessary, vacated the temporary restraints previously entered in the matter and dismissed plaintiff's domestic violence action....
...............

It sounds as though this "husband's" violence extended well beyond marital rape. It's not just that this judge refused to cite this rapist for his heinous acts—bad enough—but he *removed this girl's protections* from her violent "husband".

This is exactly the sort of thing that would happen to a girl going to the authorities in the pit of Dar-al-Islam. And it happened here—in *New Jersey*.

I suppose beating and harassing his wife—which the judge, remember, found to have occurred—was also "something that was consistent with his practices and it was something that was not prohibited"—since, after all, it is expressly condoned in the Qur'an.

More:

Later that day, defendant and his mother took plaintiff to the home of the Imam and, in the presence of the Imam, his wife, and defendant's mother, defendant verbally divorced plaintiff...
...............

More bullying. Who the hell is this Imam? He should be barred from his position, and deported, if he is not a US citizen.

Who was this judge? I applaud the upper court's decision, but to characterize such a gross and malicious miscarriage of justice as merely "mistaken" seems altogether too bland to me. He should be disbarred.

This may well be the first such case—but I am sadly sure it will not be the last.

ebonystone said:

The killing of a wayward or disobedient daughter, sister, or wife is also "consistent with his [Moslem] practices and it was something that was not prohibited." Are the NJ courts willing to let murderers off, too?

/SARCASM ON
Well, nj courts are not as advanced as Calgary courts, (yet!).

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/07/canada-muslim-woman-will-not-go-to-jail-for-strangling-her-teenage-daughter-with-a-head-scarf.html

/SARCASM OFF

"What does it take to grasp reality?"

For ignorant PC MC Idiots? A LOT.

Marisol wrote:

Frankly, to hold people to a lower standard by exempting them from our legal requirements is not multicultural magnanimity, but a form of patronizing bigotry
...............

Exactly so, Marisol.

Here's Ayaan Hirsi Ali, in an excerpt from her book "Nomad", who recognizes the same phenomenon:

"The west tends to respond to the social failures of Muslim immigrants with what can be called the racism of low expectations. This western attitude is based on the idea that people of colour must be exempted from "normal" standards of behaviour. There are many good men and women in the west who try to resettle refugees and strive to eliminate discrimination. They lobby governments to exempt minorities from the standards of behaviour of western societies; they fight to help minorities preserve their cultures, and excuse their religion from critical scrutiny. These people mean well, but their activism is now a part of the very problem they seek to solve. Their efforts to assist Muslims and other minorities are futile because, by creating the illusion that one can hold on to tribal norms and at the same time become a successful citizen, the proponents of multiculturalism lock subsequent generations born in the west into a no man's land of moral values. What comes packaged in a compassionate language of acceptance is really a cruel form of racism. And it is all the more cruel because it is expressed in sugary words of virtue."

The term 'racism' is somewhat problematic here—since Islam is not a race—but otherwise I agree with Ali. Certainly, many in the West conflate the two. It is easy to see, as well, how what starts out as excusing the behavior of Muslim "minorities" can easily mutate into full imposition of Shari'ah law—as it almost did here in New Jersey.

If I had been the trial judge or appellate judge on this case, there's no way I could have written my opinion without citing this:

"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."

Attributed to Gen. Charles James Napier, commander-in-chief of the British Raj

The judge can NOT set aside USA laws for Sharia, not yet anyway! This judge should lose his position immediately. This is exactly why states like Louisiana, OK, TN are adding 'no sharia' laws, while others stupidly snigger about it in their ignorance!

This is worth repeating:

The Court further determined that those who made polygamy a part of
their religion were not excepted from the statute's operation.
Ibid.
If they are, then those who do not make
polygamy a part of their religious belief
may be found guilty and punished, while
those who do, must be acquitted and go free.
This would be introducing a new element into
criminal law. Laws are made for the
government of actions, and while they cannot
interfere with mere religious belief and
opinions, they may with practices. Suppose
one believed that human sacrifices were a
necessary part of religious worship, would
it be seriously contended that the civil
government under which he lived could not
interfere to prevent a sacrifice? Or if a
wife religiously believed it was her duty to
burn herself upon the funeral pile of her
dead husband, would it be beyond the power
of the civil government to prevent her
carrying her belief into practice?
So here, as a law of the organization
of society under the exclusive dominion of
26 A-6107-08T2
the United States, it is provided that
plural marriages shall not be allowed. Can
a man excuse his practices to the contrary
because of his religious belief? To permit
this would be to make the professed
doctrines of religious belief superior to
the law of the land, and in effect to permit
every citizen to become a law unto himself.
Government could exist only in name under
such circumstances.
[Id. at 166-67, 25 L.

Swami is 100% right on.

Thanks Biff, and with apologies to the late Johnny Cochran, wherever he is...

Where are " Defender of Islam ", " Roland ", and " Islamic Empire ", when you need them ?

Golly !I sure would like to get their opinions on this,especially from roland, who likes to demean " corrupt ", western women.

Step up to the plate, fellas !

WTF???

I remember when Mark Steyn came out with his book "America Alone", hypothising that Europe would fall to Islam and America would be alone to fight for the ideals of freedom and individual liberty. I felt offended by that, for we in Europe have a much older tradition in the field, but I didn't exactly take to the streets in order to burn the flag of my American friends and allies...

Now it seems the trend is reversed. America - and the US in particular - is falling fast to political correctness, while we in Europe stand for our culture and our freedom - causing deep frustrations to islamists like Bashy Qurashy.

We are facing a daunting task of making everyone in the West (Europe, US, Israel) understand what we are up against, and to instill sufficient courage and confidence in the ideals of freedom that the Islamists will stand frustrated.

It's our job. There's noone else to do it.

how can we find out the name of the judge?

It's fantastic that the judge's outrageous ruling was overturned, but utterly disgusting that it was even made to begin with.

Have not our courts already decided that NO husband has the "right" to force sex upon an unwilling partner, and that such use of force is indeed rape?

Anybody who has had to appear in front of ANY judge for ANY reason knows how arrogant these scumbags can be. Someone who comes to this kind of conclusion has no business being a judge. In fact I wouldn't trust this imbecile to baby sit my keeshond!!

"...where in jersey was this, I live here and I did not hear about this"

What?! ...a few days ago you stated that you live in IRAN, so which is it? Do you live in Jersey, or Iran?

Marisol, please check his IP address, because it looks like miriam is pulling our leg ...

I wholly agree with your comment, mike.

TO THE CONSTITUTIONAL LAWYERS READING JIHAD WATCH

Would we be wrong to read Article VI in any other way than what it says at face value?...

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

We have not made any treaties with anyone granting that Sharia is to be the supreme law of the land.

THUS: Has this judge not posited an administrative act which attempts to legislate against article VI of the Constitution, the "supreme Law of the Land"? Is he not liable to receiving a minimum felony sentence? Is there no one reading Jihad Watch able to take up the challenge in court? I would, but am unable. Some readers could, and are able. I hope to read of the case down the line right here on Jihad Watch.

Obviously the judge feels the same way about women as this muslim man does. If he didn't, her right not to be raped would have outweighed his religious right to sex on demand.

Woe to the young muslim girl who is accused of dishonoring her family. A brother/father/son who kills her would be acting within his right, as honor killings are consistent with islamic practices and not prohibited.

I couldn't disagree more with the author's statement "close call ..." No! Not a close call at all! Religious beliefs have NEVER, EVER, been an excuse for lawless behavior in the civil society. To go down this path is to give the Jihadists their "mission accomplished" of shariah law supremacy over our Constitution. To go down this path is to surrender the republic to these 7th Century troglodytes. The judge who passed this judgment is impeachably incompetent.

http://libertyatstake.blogspot.com/
[For a light hearted take on our present peril]

This court does not feel that, under the circumstances, that this defendant had a criminal desire to or intent .. his desire to have sex when and whether he wanted to, was something that was consistent with his practices and it was something that was not prohibited.

Not prohibited by whom? The Sharia? Or the law of the land, which the judge was supposed to be upholding?

Next he will be finding that he was "not prohibited" for stoning her to death, because it was "consistent with his practices"

That judge should be "defrocked" or whatever they do judges over there (Though defrocking would do).

@champ: "Please check his IP address."

And the internet provider address would tell us what?

I read the report. This muslim scumbag really tortured that poor girl.

If our soldiers did similar things to terrorists they'd be sent to prison.

This judge really needs to be removed. He has no understanding or concept of domestic abuse. In his ruling, he also wrote:

[T]his is a case where there is no history of domestic violence. In fact, they have been — they were together for only three months. Then the bad patch was three weeks, and then another week.

So, four weeks of abuse out of only three months of marriage isn't a case for domestic violence?

Four weeks out of three YEARS is too much, much in less three months.

Just a bad patch... that lasted for 3 weeks... and then another week...

That's an interesting defense for men who abuse women: "Your honor, we've been married for a year. If you add up all the time I was abusing her, it only adds up to 4 months. We just hit a bad patch or two..."

Also, note this imam's refusal to answer:

The Imam confirmed that a wife must comply with her husband's sexual demands, because the husband is prohibited from obtaining sexual satisfaction elsewhere. However, a husband was forbidden to approach his wife "like any animal." The Imam did not definitively answer whether, under Islamic law, a husband must stop his advances if his wife said "no."

Its like trying to get a muslim to condemn HAMAS...

What a disgusting cult islam is. It amazes me that any woman is a willing muslim.

C.S. Lewis wrote in Mere Christianity that "horrible nations have horrible religions". The abuses described in this report are not only legal in islamic societies, they are routinely practiced.

Its no surprise such a religion would rise from such evil men.

I think it's to see whether or not we're dealing with a "doppleganger," a previously-identified troll using a different handle.

When I worked as a US government contractor in Iraq. I had full facial hair ALA Mr. Spencer and my dark complexion, fluency in Arabic and my assumed name convinced the locals that I must be a Muslim. Also, when we went to the market or do some mission related business we were all attired in civilian cloth, bearded and we were a curiosity to locals. Some assumed we worked for a foreign oil company and I was their Arab fixer.

In the course of my work I was offered on more than one occasion to wed very young girls by impoverished family members. They were Shiite's though... Sunnis were mostly hostile and Kurds do not like their girls to wed outsiders.

One very poor widowed mother offered me her 14 year old daughter's hand and began to negotiate the “dowry” before I even had a chance to respond to her bizarre proposal. Breaking protocol, I gave her a bunch of Dinars and said Allah be with you and left. Slavery is well and alive thanks to laws of Allah.

Also, in final note, Jersey has one of the worst “in-Justice” systems in the country. Coptic churches in Jersey city get vandalized and even when they catch the perpetrators, they get off Scott-free (remember the terrorist Mohamed Hamoud Alessa) . Muslims act with impunity in the armpit of America, New Jersey, a state full of leftist morons and an international coalition of the lowest class of human beings put together in one place. Apologizes in advance to the minority of good people who still have not moved to “America Starts Here” Pennsylvania.

You're not wrong to read it that way, quranwatcher. Unfortunately, at least one Supreme Court Justice, Justice Anthony Kennedy, has opined professionaly that international law (which is a gooey and amorphous term that implicitly admits all kind of legal inclusions) can be taken into account when American judges decide cases. This ill-considerd reasoning of Kennedy's, which is violative of the very Article you cited in the Constitution, is the back door legal entry to Sharia having a place in American law, disgusting as this is.

If only more folks would realize how limited many judges are when assessing anything outside the law----and often even within legal frameworks----we here in America would be much better off . In short, standard deference to judges needs to end. The judicial systems in America and in Europe, as I have written before, are the greatest ally of Islam's designs on the West, the last bastion of dhimmi defense of Islam. To put it succinctly, Western judges are even more of a menace in the effort to stop Islam from taking over the West than are Western politicians. If this isn't sobering, I don't know what the hell is.

@Wellington: "taken into account"

Excellent comment.

Let's go further with this. Does Tony refer to analogous wisdom totally compatible with the U.S. Constitution on this or that point, or does he really want to relativize the Constitution to the particular case involving an international circumstance? It's to the former I suspect. Do you have the case at hand?

@Eleanor: about the D o p p e l g ä n g e r

Wouldn't a shallow character of that m.o. be moving from computer to computer, at libraries, internet cafes, etc.?Also, it’s easy to sign in from a different country, it is not?

I used to block addresses when some few started making terroristic threats when I had my terrorist identifier blogs unlocked. I would simply remove posts like that of this fellow.

@DJM: “What a disgusting cult islam is. It amazes me that any woman is a willing muslim.”

I suspect that even the women who would just as soon kill you for making that statement would do so only out of fear of what they would otherwise face. Don’t think they wouldn’t agree with you even as they slit your throat.

My opinion: The undoing of Islam will be by way of women. It will not be easy for them. It has not been easy for them. The world is right to take their part, beginning with things like the veil, but only if the pressure is kept up until Sharia is banned in every country in the world, including Muslim majority countries.

I think we all owe it to women to pay more attention to women in such distress. Let's all do it!

NJ - I always thought some crazies live over there.. this article confirmed that.

"Wouldn't a shallow character of that m.o. be moving from computer to computer, at libraries, internet cafes, etc.?Also, it’s easy to sign in from a different country, it is not?"
-----------------
"Is it not?"

Do I sense a slight whiff of hostility?

I've been hanging around here for quite awhile now, and the reason I offered that possibility as the explanantion is because (if I am not mistaken): JW HAS caught folks in the past by using this method; I distinctly recall at least one case within the past year.

Of course for ultimate verification, you'd have to check with Marisol.

"And the internet provider address would tell us what?"

Sorry, but isn't my query obvious?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thank you, El :)

It is to the former as you suspected, quranwatcher. As for a particular case, there really isn't any that would definitively reveal this stance of Kennedy's. But it has been noted by many (e.g., Jeffrey Toobin) that Kennedy over the past five to ten years has indicated that certain humanitarian principles supercede any particular nation's legal system (sounds good perhaps but watch out of course). A June 14th, 2008 Los Angeles Times article was absolutely gushing about the fact that Kennedy teaches seminars in Europe from time to time and is on record saying to students pretty much what Toobin has asserted about Kennedy. Many other legal analysts have concurred here respecting the inclination by Kennedy to consider legal precedents or reasoning that cannot be found within the body of American jurisprudence. Lots of folks, myself included, have seen this as an opening to, in effect, the negation of the concept of the Constitution as the supreme law of the land.

Just as a follow-up to my above comment, quranwatcher, to the extent that there is a case which is evidence of Justice Kennedy's inclination to consult international law for buttressing of American legal opinion, the case of Roper v. Simmons (2005) is probably most demonstrative of this. Understand, Kennedy has approached this matter indirectly and not directly. But it still seems clear to many what he means and what the implications are, especially many years down the road.

@Wellington

Yep. Brilliant. There are few in the history of thought who have realized what a little tinkering can do in the long run. It is just so easy to congratulate oneself for having what one thinks to be an insight. The way I see it, the U.S. Constitution is based on the natural law what with the inalienable rights and all that. The Constitution does not encompass the natural law, but respect for the natural law is enshrined in the Constitution. It's good to be on top of decisions as they begin to be used as time goes by. Excellent.

Quranwatcher--

An IP address can confirm a location -- as, for example, we once discovered the fraud and resiliently re-registering troll "Naseem" was not in Lahore, but the U.K.

Within the commenting system, it can confirm "sock-puppeting" (one user, multiple logins), or that a banned commenter has re-registered.

I'm not finding any history on the current user in question... who is also not in Iran. We may actually be blocked there.

You bet! :D JW has become a real magnet (a Mecca? LOL) for all sorts of interesting posters lately, huh?

Some, who are undoubtedly Islamists, are very bright and clearly well-educated. I find that both sad and frightening. Some poor, illiterate, tribal Afgahni could almost be excused for clinging to such a false and ridiculous ideology, but the academic-types are much harder to excuse.

And, I also constantly wonder how many of them are genuine ideologues, and how many are just using Islam as a vehicle to acquire wealth and/or power (a.k.a. "one of the oldest cons known to man")?

P.S. don't forget about my blog, there's TONS of satire and stuff there!

@Eleanor
@champ

Zero hostility.

And, champ, yes, clear.

What I was thinking about was this:

When I had really been into the blogging thing from the administrative end, the tricks of the trade made the Doppelgänger thing a bit obsolete, and few bothered with it. I do remember one case in particular, however, when someone was commenting from multiple computers, but with the same name and password, throughout the now defunct USSR, from Siberia to the "stans" in the South. That was around the time המוסד intervened to my advantage. It was all pretty "sick", as people say these days.

Truce?

@Marisol: "Iran. We may actually be blocked there."

There are ways, but they are time consuming. You would have to have someone on it full time, which means financial backing. So, a clarion call for help! It's worth the effort, especially in Iran, where the younger generation is really on the move in the right direction.

I had many readers throughout Iran. I felt sorry for them as I knew it would be dangerous for them just to log on to my blog. But words are powerful, and everyone knows this, from writers to readers to... "observers".

Is there some reason the judge shouldn't be charged with federal civil rights violations? I'm thinking whatever statute I'm going to charge Rifqa's judge with would suffice.

Almost August, people. Pray for her life.

@Marisol

As I understand it, the Mossad are willing to help you for any country in which a difficulty arises. I haven't checked out JW in such places. I live a quieter life right now. What you want (unblocking of JW) may just happen as a pleasant surprise, or it may be appropriate to ask, quietly, on the side. I'm sure you have a friend of a friend. But be careful what you wish for, as people say. There are some who do not appreciate JW, some who would be especially difficult for having been trumped with internet savvy from outside of their own countries. But I'm sure you know that better than I, JW being what it is. Best wishes.

@winoceros

Better act quickly.

10 August = birthday
11 August = ramadan

Good luck.

Champ wrote, responding to Miriam Rove:

"...where in jersey was this, I live here and I did not hear about this"

What?! ...a few days ago you stated that you live in IRAN, so which is it? Do you live in Jersey, or Iran?
...................

Champ, in previous posts, Miriam Rove has stated that he grew up in Iran, but now lives in the United States.

Sentimental claptrap.

Sometime after 2001 and before October 2008 an American woman named Sarah Braasch spent a summer in Morocco.

She wrote about her observations of male and female behaviour in an article entitled 'Moroccan Feminine Wiles', which originally appeared in 'Freethought Today
Vol. 25 No. 8 - Published by the Freedom From Religion Foundation, Inc. - 
October 2008'.

The link to that particular item is no longer working, but luckily, at the time I first encountered it, I saved a complete copy of the article.

I will post a selection of the more telling passages here.

"I have been grappling with the decision to write this piece, as well as how to write it. I’ve rewritten it at least a dozen times. Everything I’ve written is true. I am simply recounting my personal experiences spending a summer alone in Rabat, Morocco. But, I’m worried that it will come across as some sort of Islamophobic, imperialist rant. And, then, I decided to just tell the truth. Take it as you will.

- By Sarah Braasch

"I nearly broke under the weight of oppression. The air felt thick with it. I burst into tears at work.

"I cried myself to sleep at night, listening to the cacophony of cries and screams of the domestic servant girls, some of them Moroccan, some of them foreign, being beaten and raped in the darkness.

"The discordant melody of wailing and torture would wind down just as the dissonant Muslim call to prayer hailed the rising sun....

"I am not a cultural relativist.

"I believe that the inherent dignity of a human being and the rights implicit therein trump religion, culture, and nationality.

"One of the problems I have with the cultural relativism argument is the issue of who defines the culture. Whose culture is it? Almost without fail, those in power employ the argument as a means of maintaining the status quo to their own advantage. This usually means men.

" If women are not full participating members of society, with economic and political power, how can it be said that they are complicit in their own degradation?

"Inherent in the cultural relativism argument is the claim that the women living within whichever so-called culture support and reinforce their own diminished and devalued status in society.

"I find this argument repugnant. Usually, it is cloaked in religious justifications.

"A religious endorsement of a cultural entitlement to human rights violations is supposed to end the debate.

"And, of course, if your religion indoctrinates children from birth and threatens them with either violent death in the herenow or eternal hellfire in the hereafter, it isn’t hard to see that free will isn’t really part of the equation."...

"Women in patriarchal societies do what they have to do to survive. This in no way either legitimizes their inferior status or implies that they acquiesce in their own subordination. Saying as much also denies the extraordinary efforts of numerous women’s rights organizations and thousands upon thousands of women in Morocco doing amazing work to advance the role of women in society.

"I did things in Morocco, which I would never have imagined that I would ever even think about doing until I did them, because being raped on a daily basis was not a happy alternative.

"But, no, I never wore a headscarf, because the Islamists are right—there are some things worth dying for. Like my humanity.

"I was shocked from the moment the plane landed at the reaction I elicited.

"I had never felt so sexualized and objectified. It was a suffocating and overwhelming deluge of incessant, aggressive, unwanted male attention.

"Taxi drivers tried to kidnap me. Soldiers harassed me. Strange men tried to lure me into their shops, their homes, their beds. I was baffled at the rudeness of these men who felt absolutely no compunction in trying to touch and grab me.

"I was terrified and dismayed. I thought, “How am I going to get to and from work? How am I going to maneuver through my daily existence, buy groceries, go to the bank, eat out?” I was incredulous. Walking down the street by myself in downtown Rabat, in front of the Parliament building no less, seemed like a nightmare in which I had mistakenly exposed my genitals.

"Being unwilling to abandon my summer plans, I quickly adjusted as well as I could.

"I avoided eye contact with everyone on the street and simply ignored the men attempting to secure my attention.

"Yelling “No!” while pointing my finger at anyone bold enough to speak to me yielded particularly disarming results.

"I glared and glowered at the cab drivers while barking directions at them.

"Basically, I behaved in a manner that would have completely mortified me in the United States.

"I usually pride myself on being friendly and courteous, but it just simply wasn’t possible, or safe, to be so in Morocco."...

"I chose two particular survival tactics both of which were highly successful, and both of which left me feeling wholly dehumanized and demoralized.

"First, I would tell any man whom I met that I was engaged to a Moroccan.

" I abhor lying, but I had little choice to do otherwise. Once, I was attempting to thwart the groping hands of a taxi driver when I told him as much. He instantly took his hands off of both me and the steering wheel, raised them in the air, and began praying to Allah for forgiveness, shutting his eyes and covering his face with his hands. I thought, “That’s great that you’re repenting and everything, but could you not cover your face with your hands while you’re driving me to work, thanks.”

"I realized that he saw me, as an infidel, a nonMuslim, as being for the taking and the raping.

"Even as a Muslim woman, he saw me as a chattel, the sexual property of another Muslim, whose property he may not defile."...

"The other way in which I protected myself from the onslaught of sexual perversion was to befriend, under somewhat false pretenses, a group of young Moroccan men who worked at various shops in the center of Rabat.

This was useful because, if I was accompanied by a Moroccan man, I was neither accosted nor molested, since I had already been claimed by a Muslim.

"I was able to do this, because the aspirations of this group of young Moroccan men had less to do with sex than emigration and economic advancement...
Marrying a foreign woman, particularly one from Western Europe or the United States, becomes a lucrative business endeavor..."

"The young men whom I had befriended were, for the greater part, well-educated, nominally employed, and middle class. They came from nice, traditional Muslim families. All of them spoke French, and some of them spoke at least some English. Most of them had visited or studied in France and had family living there. They often spoke of being pressured by their families to marry their French cousins...

"I was shocked by how open and honest these young Muslim men were about their misogyny, their racism, their tribalism, and, especially, about their antiSemitism.

"They were also brutally honest about their interpretations of Quranic tenets and Islamic dogma.

"They proudly bandied about their cell phone displays, emblazoned with images of the two hijacked planes hitting the Twin Towers, for my amusement. They then sheepishly put them away when they saw the look of utter horror upon my face. Somehow they thought that my disapprobation of the American president {insincerely stated by Ms Braasch in order to obtain a sort of 'open sesame' to cordial relations - dda} would equate with my pleasure in seeing thousands of American innocents slaughtered.

"They all espoused a sincere desire to head to Iraq, Afghanistan, or Palestine, to engage in jihad against the infidels.

"Many of them claimed that only familial responsibilities, such as caring for mothers and sisters, held them back from fulfilling this ultimate Muslim duty of martyrdom.

"They waxed eloquent about ripping open the hymens of angelic virgins unto perpetuity as a rightful heavenly reward for their efforts.

"They would, in the same breath, harangue the killing of innocents as unIslamic and then vehemently defend the killing of any and all Israeli or Jewish or European or American or nonMuslim civilians, including men, women, and children, as enemies of Islam.

"I feel that the real views of the vast majority of Muslims towards women, both Muslim and infidel, are given short shrift in light of the omnipresent dangers of jihad.

"My Moroccan companions continually insisted that all French women are whores while also doing anything in their power to woo said whores for the chance to become French citizens.

"The duplicity inherent in these relationships is disturbing, to say the least.

"And, they didn’t reserve their vitriol for foreign women either.

"Muslim women who were not sufficiently pious were not to be spared their wrath and venom.

"My Moroccan friends (sic - dda) took every opportunity to let me know that Muslim women who do not cover their hair are loose, easy women.

"They would point at young Moroccan women in Western-style dress walking down the streets of Rabat and allege that these women have sex every night with different men.

"Whether or not these proclamations were the products, in no small part, of testosterone-infused bombast, they were chilling nonetheless.

"These were not impoverished, uneducated, unsophisticated, and frustrated inhabitants of some shanty town on the outskirts of Casablanca. These were not young men who had fallen prey to and under the sway of some radical mullah.

"These were young men who wished to marry western women, move to Western Europe or the United States, and avail themselves of both the freedom and capitalism therein.

"Yet, these were also young men who laughed at children’s television cartoons that represented American soldiers as hapless and witless buffoons who most often blow themselves up through their own ineptitude.

"I have to admit that I found myself becoming angry, even incensed. They seemed completely oblivious to any sense of dissonance between their desire to destroy Western culture and their desire to become part of Western culture.

"One need only visit a Muslim Arab country to understand the true nature of the much-abused concept of jihad.

"There is no talk of internal struggle on the streets of Rabat. There is no talk of nonviolent conversion in the cafes of Morocco.

"There is only talk of blood, lust and martyrdom.

"Keep in mind that Morocco is a moderate Muslim Arab nation, infused with European culture and populated with cosmopolitan cities, and, arguably, America’s greatest Muslim-Arab ally."

"Moroccan culture is a celebration of the image of man as implacable, sexually-ravenous beast.

"Little boys are vaunted and cooed over, caressed and kissed, even in public, even by grown men, **while little girls are lamented, ignored, and marginalized** {my emphasis - dda}.

"Bragadaccio over sexual exploits and abilities is typical conversational fodder.

"I was flabbergasted. It all struck me as the antithesis of a pious, moral, chaste society.

"How had women managed to survive in this atmosphere? Oh, yes, in the exact same way as I had done." {i.e. by deception - dda}.


I may be a man but I find these rotten to the core. you don't have to be a feminist to see the hypocracy and stupidity in the original judge's ruling.

So where are all the feminists concerning this issue? You know if this was a white couple they would be all over this ruling. The judge would be tarred and feathered by them. But since this is a muslim family (values), there is nothing but dead silence. This is shameful and hypocritical on their part.

Now look at the saying of the perfect man.

Muhammad said: "If a husband calls his wife to his bed [i.e. to have sexual relation] and she refuses and causes him to sleep in anger, the angels will curse her till morning" (Bukhari 4.54.460).

How is that for a male chauvinst pig, as feminists used to call such men. Muhammed is saying that man's needs trumps the need of the woman. If she has a head ache , or is tired, or is menstruating, or just feels bad, tough luck you must go and satisfy your husband, to hell with your feelings. The only object of the woman is to make her hubby feel good, cause if he is angry than allah will send the bad woman to hell for an eternity of torture. So is this the right so many muslim women proudly say about islam? How about the verse where allah compares the woman to the dog and donkey and says that all are equal.

Why do some so called liberated women become muslim?

While reading this article, I couldn't help but recall John and Lorena Bobbitt for some strange reason....

That's absolutely sickening, dda. While I was reading it, for some reason, I kept picturing the "Rick Steve's Travel" series show where he recommends taking the time, while in southern Spain, to "hop the ferry and skip over to Morocco" in order to haggle for deals on (bullshit) trinkets and "soak in" the (oppressive) culture of a world "so different from Spain but yet so close."

They filmed it, and despite the "exotic" label they placed on it, I thought it looked like a true third-world dump, filled with unwashed and primitive MEN in dresses who seemed to claw at everything, and everyone.

If I remember correctly, there was hardly a woman to be seen, anywhere.

I like Rick Steves, I actually met him many years ago and his earlier shows about traveling on-the-cheap in Europe actually saved me a ton of money, but he's clueless -- or just too MC/PC regarding what's really happening in the Muslim world (especially to women).

Needless to say, when I was in southern Spain, I skipped the ferry ride.

He did a show more recently where they visited Iran, and throughout the half hour program, he kept mentioning how they were being watched, and how the rules were so strict, and how they had to sign "pledges" that they would do nothing "unislamic" and on and on.

Still, he maintained that goofy, carefree "the world is a peach" smile the whole time. He smokes a lot of pot, so maybe that's how he did it. LOL

Anyway, I'd love to read the rest of that article if it can ever be located.

Thanks for posting what you had.

~El

To be a judge, one must live by a "Judges Code of Conduct."

It seems many today do not do that. This guy, sitting on the legal bench did more than just 'make a mistake.' He broke the law in essence even if nothing is done about it. He didn't follow established law. He didn't abide by the legal rule of following precedent (stare decisis) set by the Court so many years ago. Men can no longer get away with the 'rule of thumb' nor with raping their wives. The Court has set precedent...stare decisis... on both issues.

According to his idiocy, if one 'believes' something is alright to do, if they have not been taught to believe an action is wrong or illegal, then they cannot be found guilty. Why are all those criminals in jail? Why are the prisons full?

Are judges in NJ elected or appointed? They cannot be sued for errors, but they can be impeached for not abiding by the judges code of conduct.

Thanks for sharing this. It proves the truth of the following ancient writing:
Man has dominated man (and woman) to his (and her) injury." King Solomon

Eleanor - I do have the full text, but was reluctant to post all of it here.

@Henrick
Thanks for posting that link to Bashy Quarshy. There was one particular, almost metaFreudian-slipline, that made me doubletake. In their rebuttal of the IFA, they came up with this Darth Vadarish 'gem' ...''but to use such an insignificant minority to malign a universal religion or its tenants''...

Maybe you can create a (free) blog right through Typepad, and post it there worry free? I created my blog and I love it (my blog is mostly satire)!

If you want to, just click on your handle - in red - and follow the guide to create your own blog space.

I've had mine up for months now, and so far, not a single problem with it, only joy.

The nice thing is, if you have material you feel is inappropriate, too long, or for some other reason just don't think you want to post at JW, you can post it on the blog and then refer folks to that.

Recently, gravenimage was looking for the text from a book by a poster named Patrick that she'd lost in a drive crash. I had it but it was in PDF format so I couldn't link it.

Instead, I copied all the text (hundreds of pages I think) and pasted it temporarily to my blog, and she got it from there.

It's really handy.

I couldn't çopypaste the piece, apos, but it's written by COJEP, and concerns the ICLA, not the IFA as I incorrectly transcribed above. As a footnote ,there's no doubting their cosmological aspirations and I can only suppose that if they succeed then we'll all be ''tenants''....bang go my title-deeds.


I learned about Islam and New Jersey Courts the hard way. The girl who appeal the decision above, was incredibly courageous!!! What people forget, is that for every BRAVE lady, like her and Rifqa Bary, there are literally thousands, who are terrified into submission. (and for each single "honor killing", there are thousands who give up their dreams, and submit.) Few understand the paralyzing terror of reality. But I suspect these stories are much more common than people realize...
- - -
A gentle lady I knew and had worked with (she had a Master's Degree), asked ME out for drinks (I don't drink. But she does.). It was true magic from the start. But, in the very first week, she said she was not Muslim, but concealed it from her Muslim Father out of fear. We even seriously discussed her real fears about potential honor killing. Quotes from her TO me:
"... I've told you a thousand times that I DON'T believe in Islam."
"Again, I think there are a lot of evil teachings in Islam"
"And I DON'T believe that Islam is a good religion."
Later, while taking my child to a Chuckie Cheese while visiting her in NJ, I got lost. I read her street names, and then I noticed her hand LITERALLY SHAKING.

I inquired, and she said "If it is this close to my Father's house, we can't go. I said "huh? we are just taking a child to Chuckie Cheese...". She said, "We can't go. Someone might see me there.". So I turned the car around.

I am a military veteran. I've seen people scared. But in my life, I never saw a hand literally shake in terror before.
Just from the fear of being seen in a Chuckie Cheese, with a child?

Later she wrote:
" I need a good cry but I can't because I'm at work.
I just wish I could run away with you like so many people do.
But that's not so easy in the real world, right?
I wish God would just give us the wisdom to fix this so we could spend our life together.
Bill, even if we don't end up together I want only the best for you. ... you're such a good person. "

She tried to overcome her fear in the following months. She said her greatest dream in life, was to have a "fat" baby. But she would never marry a Muslim, and could not marry a non-Muslim. She asked me, to learn to "pretend" to be a Muslim, as she did. So, I even went to a Masjid, to learn about Islam (As did her previous Fiancee.... She told me to prove my love, with actions not words. And it was very educational... I learned fast, and I even was allowed to attend a tri-state "Dawa" meeting.)

Finally, she told me she wanted to marry me, and asked me to buy her a ring.
(She wrote: "I need to be free of my family" and “...because I love you and wish I could spend the rest of my life with you.")

So the next time I visited her in NJ, my young child (who she also loved), offered her the ring. It was specially textured. She said it was beautiful, and she loved it. She wanted it. But she said she "couldn't" accept it. because
"Now they are watching me more closely than ever".

EXACT words. I will never forget them. (I wish I could! Imagine hearing the woman you love, and want to marry, being "watched" and treated like an animal? In America ?!?)

Then, we discussed her being "watched", etc., and I said a grown woman with a Master’s Degree should not constantly live in fear, of a religion she doesn't even believe in, and she should tell the truth to her Father.
(Wrong thing to say!!!. Even the IDEA of confronting him, made her panic.
She then said, if her Father found out about us, that we were “intimate”, she would (falsely) accuse me of rape, to protect herself! I reminded her, that her emails and "gifts" prove I did not. So then she threatened to call my Boss, and get me fired, if her Father found out about us. After that, I left with my child.

A YEAR later, the woman who loved me, and wrote "I just wish I could run away with you ", told the NJ Court, that a year earlier, I had made "terroristic threats" to kidnap her and take her to an "undisclosed location".

Her NJ affidavit said our relationship ended a year BEFORE I offered her the ring. (She even admitted in NJ Court, I had done nothing, for the 9 months prior to her suddenly making the accusations. Yet suddenly she needed "protection" from me, when I lived in another state, and had done nothing in the previous year?)

(My guess is, the Father was suspicion, or found out somehow. So she had to "prove" that she wanted nothing to do with me.) NJ Court did NOT allow me to show any evidence, including emails proving she was afraid of her Father, not me. (In fact, the next year, she even volunteered to work beside me again, where we first met. clearly she was never afraid of me... even after this.)

Yet, without ANY evidence, she was granted a protection order. For "threats" she claimed occurred a year earlier. ( The NJ Court is notorious for granting orders without ANY evidence. Which makes the "Sharia" case in the article above, even a more glaring bias in favor of Sharia law and Islam.)

Last year, I became engaged to a wonderful Christian woman, who is not afraid of her own Father. So I am very happy now.
But I still feel pity, for all the thousands of women, who are not free to live their own lives, and follow their own hearts and dreams...

"I was flabbergasted. It all struck me as the antithesis of a pious, moral, chaste society." - from article posted by dda

Yes, the reality is that Islamic society is primitive, nasty, brutish, violent and misogynist. With thanks to Hobbes.

Eleanor and dumbledoresarmy

http://www.daylightatheism.org/2010/05/yes-thats-me-in-the-burqa.html

Yes, That's Me in the Burqa
by Sarah Braasch

dda,

Thanks for posting that powerful article about Sarah Braasch's summer in Morocco.

Here is a link to the full article:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_7208/is_200810/ai_n32299380/?tag=content;col1

Thank you, Graven ...yes, I think you're right :)

@Hesperado, the reverse pyschology jihadist

The only thing I can glean from your denunciation of my wanting women not to be in constant fear for their lives or in fear of domestic abuse (in agreement with DJM above) is that you desperately lust to mistreat women according to your own version of jihad. Perhaps you're just a misogynist sociopath? Just asking.

Yes, I did notice that you made your reply after I encouraged @winoceros about protecting Fathima Rifqa Bary from a possible upcoming honour killing. That must have really upset you, Hesperado. Anyone wanting to protect a woman from your blood lust must make you crazed. I mean, do you really hold that defecting from Islam is absolutely impossible (for, not long ago, you have written that all Muslims are always the same)? Do you not, then, hold that anyone who was a Muslim, like Fathima, derserves death? After all, all Muslims being the same, she couldn't possibly want to convert. She must be lying, right? You think she deserves what any terrorist of 9/11 deserves, right? They are all the same, right? You have commented like that before.

Is it that you even want Fathima dead and may want to do this yourself? Take note, FBI! I think it is monstrous for anyone to want any woman to be disrespected. But for you, if the woman is Muslim, then it is O.K., because she is Muslim, and, for you, all Muslims are the same, from someone who converts to Christianity to the terrorists of 9/11.

I realise, Hesperado, that you do not think of yourself as a jihadist, but rather hold that all muslims, without exception, from child to 9/11 terrorist, must be treated as equally dangerous, acting on that conclusion. You've written things to that end not long ago.

To the point of the original post:It is your kind of hysteria which only feeds judges opinions which hold that Sharia is just fine. You see, no one but you and a few other hysterical posters think that all people are always the same. The argument is dismissed and provokes an opposite reaction of Sharia being just fine. Learn to study societal movements.

It's difficult for me to think that anyone could be so hysterical. That's why I think that hysterical posters like you are just coldly-reasoned jihadists who have taken courses in reverse psychology, paving the way for Sharia by way of the reaction of so many liberal judges.

Or perhaps you are a victim of PST, and truly are hysterical. Sad, that. Take your medicine and get better. I regret whatever it was that got you into PST. I'm sure you were O.K. before the PST thing. Might I suggest not making yourself worse by visiting sites like this for now. Obviously, it only makes your sentimentalism worse. That doesn't help you or anyone else.

Let's support the plaintiff, S.D., of the original post, and Fathima Rifqa Bary.

We all need to email this article to Congress (www.congress.org) and demand that laws be passed outlawing Sharia law and Sharia principals (federally, by state, and locally)as incompatible with our Constitutional rights. Example:

Dear Representative:

It is the global jihad view that democracy just means the (Muslim) majority vote in Sharia law. That idea exposes their disregard for the legal foundation of the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights and the people's right/obligation to hold the government accountable under the Constitution and Bill of Rights. Of course, the compromise of Islam being the foundation of Middle Eastern constitutions only served to establish Sharia law as the law of the lands there. Since such Islamic democracy is opposed to individual freedom and reasonableness standards, it is still incompatible with the U.S. system of government. So, Sharia-friendly socialism (wherein the government controls everything and is Sharia-law friendly) is the strategy for the U.S. submission, unless, of course, American passivity, ignorance, and division prevent our legal foundations from being asserted, established, and enforced. As it is in your job description, we are looking to you prevent and repeal unconstitutional governmental policy, even by the President, and to pass laws prohibiting unconstitutional public policies. Please pass laws preventing/prohibiting Sharia law and its principles from taking root in this country.

Get this dopey judge off the bench! He is not fit to hold his office in New Jersey, whoops, I mean New Jers-istan. Seriously, impeach him or by whatever legal means possible.

The global jihad goal of making the whole world subject to Sharia law, which President Obama is aiding and abetting (as evidenced by all his efforts on behalf of the "Muslim world"), demands that Sharia law be respected above and beyond the law of any country. We need to reign this in and declare the U.S. a Sharia-free zone before it is too late. We should bring our military back (let them no longer be infidel pawns being killed off in the pre-Mahdi skirmishes) to cover our borders and be a safe-have for those seeking refuge from Sharia law.

I assume this Judge has a mental problem since he does not reconize that this is America and not a Middle Eastern Country.
Rape is Rape! This guy should bet 90 lashes and be sent to Kabul to practice law there.
And they want to build a Mega Mosque at Ground Zero and Mayor Bloomberg says that is because New York is Tolerant!
These people are on a mission and the idiot Judge in NJ, is helping them to get there. What a FOOL!

quranwatcher,

"...do you really hold that defecting from Islam is absolutely impossible (for, not long ago, you have written that all Muslims are always the same)?"

Not impossible -- only sufficiently improbable and indefinable to be, for the purposes of our #1 priority, the safety of our societies, impractical upon which to base any kind of broad policy. Worse than impractical in fact: downright dangerous.

"After all, all Muslims being the same, she couldn't possibly want to convert. She must be lying, right?"

That is a problem, and it will become more of a problem as this war metastasizes over the coming decades and the West realizes it has to do what the Spanish did following Reconquista. The Spanish developed the rational program of the Inquisition to deal with the problem of double agents in Spanish society -- i.e., Muslims who had pretended to leave Islam. Given the fact that Spain had been under the cruel yoke of Islamic domination for nearly 800 years, and that the Muslims had been fighting the Spanish in a bloody war to the death for centuries, and that the Muslims in fact used every subterfuge including dhimmis on their side, I'd say the Inquisition was rational.

"You think she deserves what any terrorist of 9/11 deserves, right? They are all the same, right? You have commented like that before."

The problem is not that they are all the same, but that we cannot tell with sufficient reliability for the purposes of our #1 priority, the safety of our societies, which Muslims are different, which Muslims are less dangerous, which Muslims are harmless. Given what we know about Islam (and what you should know), we can't risk the prejudicially forgiving assumption that we can tell that difference. How would we tell which Muslims are harmless, which Muslims are on our side? They act nice, smile, wear blue jeans, bat their feminine eyelashes, pull at our heart strings? I'm not going to risk the lives of my fellow citizens on such flimsy evidence.

As for Muslims who are victims of Islam: Muslims victimize each other all the time, and have been doing so since Islam began 1400 years ago. Half of the world's 1.3 billion Muslims victimize the other half. Not only women, but men are victims too. When Muslims aren't victimizing the Other they hate, they turn on each other, like angry flesh-eating bacteria or viruses or spider mites. The difference between Islam and other societies & cultures is that in Islam, the victims are also perpetrators and enablers of the disease -- and as such, they are dangerous to us. If we were to base policy upon our pity for Muslim victims, we would be embracing hundreds of millions of dangerous Muslims.

"Are judges in NJ elected or appointed? They cannot be sued for errors, but they can be impeached for not abiding by the judges code of conduct."

American Justice is a stacked deck. You need, at the very least, the eyes of a magician's assistant to identify the slight of hand. Those that go it alone without counsel recieve Blind Justice.

Even though the case will define the judge's career in the most unflattering light, it will garner no more than a written reprimand by any peer review panel he could face. His vacation, sick days, salary, health care and pension will remain intact. The only threat to this gravy train is if he must win it as an elected official. Half the voters are watching Wheel of Fortune and will never have heard of this case.

@Hesperado, the entrenched jihadist

So, to my question -- "Is it that you even want Fathima dead and may want to do this yourself?" -- you did not answer in the negative, but everything pointed to the affirmative.

Get that everyone? Seems like it's to be death to converts from Islam to Christianity. Do we have a jihadist to watch on Jihad Watcher?

As I've said in another post: To those who think all Muslims are the same, check out Mr Spencer's perspective on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gGHHUowk-0

Don't be such a coward, Hesperado. Make a YouTube of yourself arguing your point at your local FBI office.

quranwatcher,

I didn't say Fathima deserves death. Instead of merely asserting that "everything [in my response] pointed to the affirmative", you need to actually demonstrate how what I wrote points to the affirmative, using evidence in my writing. Once you force yourself to begin that process, you may actually begin to read what I'm writing. That in turn may help to straighten out your joints bent out of shape and smooth out your panties from their unnecessary knots.

My God, if it hadn't been for JihadWatch, I'd have known nothing about this case. And I live a stone's throw from Bayonne (hey, lilredbird, I'm gathering the Staten Island troops as I write...)

So thank you, Robert, for posting this important story. And Marisol, for your post, which I will quote in its entirety as I pass this story & the appellate court's opinion around.

Also, dd & 4infidels for the Sarah Braasch essay on her Moroccan "adventure", which will be passed on, too.

Bless you all.

It should be possible to locate the name of this judge, as U.S. court decisions are all on the Internet, listing the names of all concerned. I'm not that good at Googling, so I'll leave it up to others. Somehow, I don't think I'll be that surprised to learn that his name has the twang of an Oriental provenance ("Oriental" in the Orientalist sense, of course).

Hesperado: Are you the judge?

Hesperado, the jihadist who thinks that if you just spit it right out there, people will believe you when you say you’re not a jihadist. But it doesn’t work with me.

I’m more convinced than ever, Hesperado, that you are a misogynist sociopath jihadist who is about to take the life of a Christian girl who converted from Islam, calling it an honour killing.

Your answer above is like watching the video of Robert Spencer not getting answers to his questions at the meeting about whether or not the parish in New York should sell property to the Muslims. You won’t answer the questions. Typical. Let’s go through your “answer”, as you requested. By the end of this I hope you are behind bars.

1.

quranwatcher: "...do you really hold that defecting from Islam is absolutely impossible (for, not long ago, you have written that all Muslims are always the same)?"

Hesperado: “Not impossible -- only sufficiently improbable and indefinable to be, for the purposes of our #1 priority, the safety of our societies, impractical upon which to base any kind of broad policy. Worse than impractical in fact: downright dangerous.”

quaranwatcher new comment: In other words, practically speaking, absolutely impossible for you, like I said. In this case, the practical effect of this is to make her [Fathima, a Christian girl] available for an honour killing. That’s what jihadists would do. Jihadist. People, don’t forget, this girl is real human being and is up for an honour killing any time. Who is this guy? Why is not behind bars?

2.

quranwatcher: "After all, [in Hesperado’s point of view, with] all Muslims being the same, she couldn't possibly want to convert. She must be lying, right?"

Hesperado: “That is a problem, and it will become more of a problem as this war metastasizes over the coming decades and the West realizes it has to do what the Spanish did following Reconquista. The Spanish developed the rational program of the Inquisition to deal with the problem of double agents in Spanish society -- i.e., Muslims who had pretended to leave Islam. Given the fact that Spain had been under the cruel yoke of Islamic domination for nearly 800 years, and that the Muslims had been fighting the Spanish in a bloody war to the death for centuries, and that the Muslims in fact used every subterfuge including dhimmis on their side, I'd say the Inquisition was rational.”

quranwatcher new comment: So, for a girl who is now under a death threat for having left Islam without coercion, against a death threat (the opposite, if anything, of that particular Inquisition [!]), you would want to subject this Christian girl to horrible tortures?!? That’s what jihadists do. Jihadist. People, don’t forget, this Christian girl is real human being and is up for an honour killing any time. Who is this guy? Why is not behind bars?

3.

quranwatcher: "You think she deserves what any terrorist of 9/11 deserves, right? They are all the same, right? You have commented like that before."

Hesperado: “The problem is not that they are all the same, but that we cannot tell with sufficient reliability for the purposes of our #1 priority, the safety of our societies, which Muslims are different, which Muslims are less dangerous, which Muslims are harmless. Given what we know about Islam (and what you should know), we can't risk the prejudicially forgiving assumption that we can tell that difference. How would we tell which Muslims are harmless, which Muslims are on our side? They act nice, smile, wear blue jeans, bat their feminine eyelashes, pull at our heart strings? I'm not going to risk the lives of my fellow citizens on such flimsy evidence.”

quranwatcher new comment: When you ask: “How would we tell which Muslims are harmless, which Muslims are on our side?” and then say: “They act nice, smile, wear blue jeans, bat their feminine eyelashes, pull at our heart strings?” ... You are here speaking of women alone. Are you not a misogynist sociopath? Persecuting Christians who were once Muslim, risking life and limb to leave Islam, is what you want. But that’s what jihadists would do. Jihadist. People, don’t forget, this girl is a real human being and is up for an honour killing any time. Who is this guy? Why is not behind bars?

4. Note: In this section, quranwatcher’s new comments are in bold, in brackets, within the final comment of Hesperado:

Hesperado: “As for Muslims who are victims of Islam: Muslims victimize each other all the time, and have been doing so since Islam began 1400 years ago. Half of the world's 1.3 billion Muslims victimize the other half. Not only women, but men are victims too. When Muslims aren't victimizing the Other they hate, they turn on each other, like angry flesh-eating bacteria or viruses or spider mites. [[Say, for the sake of argument, that that is true, such violence does not mean that Sharia must be respected in the United States. You are a jihadist, wanting even the most violent aspects of Sharia to play out right here on U.S. soil. Jihadist!]] The difference between Islam and other societies & cultures is that in Islam, the victims are also perpetrators and enablers of the disease -- and as such, they are dangerous to us. [[Go say that in any women’s shelter, you effeminate little coward. You can’t, because you are such an effeminate little coward. Go ahead, to a women’s shelter right now. Say it. Insist on it. Get yourself thrown in prison, you coward! Unbelievable. What a sociopath. You really sound like someone who is a serial killer of women. A text book example. Why has the FBI not brought this guy in for questioning, if not about Islam (do that too!), then for as yet unsolved murders of women? You think that Muslim women who convert to Christianity under threat of death (honour killing), are themselves the perpetrators and enablers of their own killing? This is pure jihadism. Jihadist.]] If we were to base policy upon our pity for Muslim victims, we would be embracing hundreds of millions of dangerous Muslims.” [[You are one sick boy, dangerous to self, others and society.]]

==========

Marisol / Robert... I’m sick to my stomach after going near this guys words. I don’t know how you face this day in, day out. Thanks for your service. We need to see what is out there. The jihadists just come pouring in. I can only hope you have some law enforcement/military on your staff already. Yikes.

Quit LYING about Hesperado, because he is NOT a jihadist; nor has he ever written that all muslims are the same. He has stated that it is impossible to make the distinction between the dangerous and the safe muslims (I am ad-libbing), especially since taqiyya is widely practiced among muslims, but he certainly is not a jihadist. You need to calm down ...

He is being ridiculous, Hesp, as now he is calling you a "jihadist". What a liar, eh? I imagine him with his arms and fingers furiously flailing about and on fire at the computer ...

@Champ,

He said more than that. Again (sorry), learn to read. Or, better, stop practicing taqiyya.

In fact, instead of "ad-libbing", say what he said. I did, at his request. I mean, what is it with you guys. It seems you want to see all women raped and killed just so you can say that you heroes against Islam. That's really sick. Really.

===========

I would like to see any of you guys say to Magdi Allam that he is no better than a jihadist.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/features/muslim-italian-and-zionist-1.224608

Go ahead, Champ, defend his remarks, line by line. Do it. Go to prison with him. Do it now. Also, make sure to go to a women's shelter and tell them the same things. Can't do it, can you. Didn't think so. Coward.

Now, where are all those women who are always defending these guys? Can't do it now, can you? Maybe the fellow with the woman's name, Mirian_Rove, will come to your rescue.

I give quranwatcher the benefit of the doubt by chalking up his wildly vitriolic hysterics to a hot-blooded temperment not untypical among those of a Middle Eastern provenance (in his case, apparently Persian). This, combined with a stubborn inability to process argumentation (a more general problem, unfortunately, among humanity at large -- though again perhaps a peculiar burden for the 'Imperially challenged' Third Worlders, doubly challenged by two Imperialisms, Western and Islamic: the former trying to ameliorate the stunting effects of the latter but less effective to the degree that the Third Worlder in question harbors irrational animus against the West), goes a long way to explaining his intemperate outbursts.

I am offended less by his emotional attacks against me than by his molestations of logic & reason: they leave me wearily enervated to do much more than lift my little finger to point out one among many of his misapprehensions and misreadings of my articulations:

quranwatcher: "...do you really hold that defecting from Islam is absolutely impossible (for, not long ago, you have written that all Muslims are always the same)?"

Hesperado: “Not impossible -- only sufficiently improbable and indefinable to be, for the purposes of our #1 priority, the safety of our societies, impractical upon which to base any kind of broad policy. Worse than impractical in fact: downright dangerous.”

quaranwatcher new comment: In other words, practically speaking, absolutely impossible for you, like I said. In this case, the practical effect of this is to make her [Fathima, a Christian girl] available for an honour killing. That’s what jihadists would do. Jihadist. People, don’t forget, this girl is real human being and is up for an honour killing any time. Who is this guy? Why is not behind bars?

Note the bolded term from my words -- "broad policy". As usual, quranwatcher ignores a crucial element of my argumentation and rides full throttle on a wild-eyed camel in pursuit of his mirage. In the context of humans trying to save other humans from unjust death, of course it's good to try to save them, and thus we should try to save Fathima from an honor killing. I am not speaking of this micro level of humans acting independently of sociopolitical context, but of the macro level of our sociopolitical apparatus reconfiguring for the long haul of our war against an enemy whose nature will make it difficult -- tragically difficult -- to save such putative victims of Islam. There are times during catastrophes where one cannot save everyone, and in order to save the largest number of people, a certain number are tragically consigned to death, else most or all the people would die. The fight against Islam isn't like taking selective surgical pot-shots at an enemy who clearly identifies himself on a ridge: it is a profoundly confounding situation where millions of motile members of an ideological diaspora are infiltrating our societies and innumerable numbers among these teeming, difficult-to-identify and difficult-to-manage masses are fanatically seeking to mass-murder us with any means possible -- radioactive, biological, chemical. In the light of this formidable and escalating danger in the years ahead, we as a civilization will have to take collective measures that will likely be unable to avoid collateral damage. The tragic aspect of that necessity does not make that necessity any less necessary: that's why we call it "tragic". Being Western, of course, we will try to minimize those tragic casualties; but only an idealistic fool would entertain Miss Universe notions of having one's cake and eating it too, and thus of magically ridding life of tragedy. And to the degree that such fools have actual effects on our policy, they no longer amuse. Anyone who would by some abstract principle dressed up in moral outrage hinder the development of that necessary means of our self-defense is not on our side, but is, whether they realize it or not, effectively enabling the enemy.

I'll mail this article to Bill O'Reilly. He loves to expose renegade judges. He'd have a field day with this one.
BTW, what's the judge's name? I've perused the article twice but maybe I just missed it.

Thanks champ. It's a little surreal. This guy comes out of nowhere and suddenly starts making wild accusations, the most laughably lurid being that I am actually literally going to kill Rifqa Bary and need to be interdicted by the FBI! (I don't know much about legal matters, but that kind of accusation sounds like it crosses some kind of legal line...) But as I said in my last post, I chalk it up to his hot Middle Eastern blood, which oftentimes whether Muslim or non-Muslim, tends to boil over at the drop of a fez.

Hesperado: "the victims are also perpetrators and enablers of the disease -- and as such, they are dangerous to us."

What of the Christian girl Fathima? Just asking.

She must be scared to death reading what you guys are saying about a macro policy that permits a micro policy of Sharia at her expense, calling her collateral damage? Isn't she, for you, only a perpetrator and enabler? See above. Just asking.

She's just a girl who converted TO Christianity despite the possibility of an honour killing. And it seems that some really want that possibility of honour killing to remain. That's what is written.

I hope Robert and Marisol take note and consider their policy about not enabling terroristic threats. We are talking about a young girl's life, right here, right now. Terroristic threats are not limited to statements like "I will kill you now." Instead, terroristic threats include insistent encouragement of circumstances in which some poeople may feel provoked into carrying out the terror, not necessarily the author of the encouragement. The author of the encouragement may very well be thought of as an accessory to any crime committed. I'm sure Jihad Watch does not want to be burdened with that. Was such encouragement wrought on this thread? I would rather err on the side of saving a girl's life and let the authorities decide about a case like this. If I have to go to jail for repeating the words of what people have written, so be it. Maybe I will have saved a life, and maybe that sacrifice will at least delay the Sharia they so seem to desire.

Hugh: Your post is "screaming for this CULT to be OUTLAWED here in America".....These loons who use their females like
the animals they ALSO use, is barbaric, and has NO ROOM FOR A CIVILIZED SOCIETY HERE IN AMERICA. FOR THOSE 5th CENTURY
BARBARIANS, ALONG WITH THEIR PEDOPHILE PROPHET MOHAMMAD WHO THOUGHT IT OK TO ABUSE/MARRY/RAPE LITTLE GIRLS(6y.o.HE MARRIED) IS JUST HORRENDOUS.

WHEN A JUDGE WOULD EVEN CONSIDER DOING "MORE HARM TO THE FEMALES MARRIED TO THESE PIGS, IS INFLICTING MORE CRIMES & DAMAGE TO THE FEMALE POPULATION. IF THESE FN PIGS WANT TO ACT OUT THEIR GAY/BRUTAL/PERVERTED SEXUAL ACTS-LET THEM DO IT ON EACH OTHER(THAT IS ALSO ACCEPTABLE, ALTHOUGH THEY WONT ADMIT IT) RATHER THAN INNOCENT CHILDREN & FEMALES.

THESE AMERICAN JUDGES WHO GO ALONG WITH THIS TORTURE/CRIMES
FOR THESE PIGS, SHOULD IMMEDIATELY BE REMOVED FROM THE BENCH
AS IT IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL IN AMERICA-THEY NEED TO BE OUSTED FOR ALLOWING ANY KIND OF SHARIA LAW- THIS CULT NEEDS TO BE RID OF 5TH CENTURY TORTURE. THROW THIS JUDGE OUT TO THE CURB HE DOESN'T DESERVE TO BE IN ANY POSITION OF DECIDING A WOMAN'S FATE OR A CHILD'S AT THE HANDS OF THESE BARBARIANS.

BTW POSTERS: THIS IS A VERY GOOD EXAMPLE OF OBAMA & HIS APPOINTEEE, KAGAN FOR THE SUPREME COURT TO BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR "WANTING TO ENJOIN SHARIA LAW WITH OUR VERY OWN CONSTITUTION OF AMERICA". WE HAVE A CONSTITUTION THAT THEY WANT TO THROW ASIDE AS THEY INITIATE SHARIA, AND THIS,
IS TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE. NOVEMBER CAN'T GET HERE FAST ENOUGH FOLKS, SO IF YOU DON'T WANT SHARIA/BARBARIANS LIVING OUT THEIR SICK CULT, THEN YOU NEED TO STAND UP AGAINST THOSE
LIKE OBAMA/KAGAN, ETC. THAT THINK IT'S OK.

VOTE THESE MUSLIM/ISLAMIC SYMPATHIZERS OUT...IN 2010 & 2012

Surreal is right, and now he's being ridiculous with me as well. He's making false assertions about both of us now, so what is this guys problem?

Hesperado.

So.

If you have the courage of your convictions, I suggest you write to Canon Patrick Sookhdeo and tell him that you believe him to be an evil fake, that you do not for one second believe his profession and practice of Christian faith to be genuine (because you believe that it is **impossible** for a Muslim to leave Islam in any manner that would ever convince you that they had genuinely apostasised) and that if you were in power in the West, you would either execute him on suspicion of being a deep-cover mole, or deport him.

You could also write similar letters to Nonie Darwish, Magdi Cristiano Allam, and Hannah Shah.

And when the next court case re Rifqa Bary comes up, I expect to see you marching up and down in front of the court-house with a sandwich-board stating, 'All Muslims lie. Rifqa is lying. Muslims can't become Christians. Muslims NEVER become Christians. Deport the evil little witch !'

Hi, dda ...

Surely you can think of a few kind and supportive things to state about Hesp, since he is one of us, my friend.

Take care.

I don't agree with everything Hesp may write, but he is by far one of the most formidable posters against jihad we have on JW. And your comments to him border on hysteria, and are out-in-out lies, so of course I am going to take you to task. BTW, I do not side with Hesp, but I do side with the truth, and whenever I see someone being attacked unfairly and lied against, then I am going to speak up.

And I've been called many things in my life, but coward has never been one of them. You are just spouting out this garbage as if having a tantrum, so grow up and stick to telling the truth about posters have written.

You should be banned for the lies you are attempting to spread about him and me.

Hesperado: "I am not speaking of this micro level of humans acting independently of sociopolitical context..."

quranwatcher: Right, you are speaking of the micro level of humans acting in consonance of sociopolitical context. You want Sharia honour killings excused. Why? Now you say it:

Hesperado: "...but of the macro level of our sociopolitical apparatus reconfiguring for the long haul of our war..."

quranwatcher: In other words, it seems you are traitor to the U.S.A., whose sociopolitical appartus, namely, the Constitution (ever hear of that?), cannot be reconfigured for any long haul of any war. People like Fathima have the inalienable rights to life, a right which you want to reconfigure out of respect for Sharia law killing Christians who were once Muslim. You speak exactly like a jihadist.

Hesperado: "...against an enemy whose nature will make it difficult -- tragically difficult -- to save such putative victims of Islam.

quranwatcher: And there you go again: Converts to Christianity who are (at risk of being) murdered are, for you, at best, only putative victims. In fact, you say that they themselves are the perpetrators and enablers. All Muslim women who are are beaten and raped and murdered are, you you, as guilty as the perpetrators. This is pure out and out Islam. Misogynist jihadist! Oh, wait, that's redundant, isn't it?

@Champ

Get it now?

I'll remain an American, Constitution in hand.

I'm proud to be an American, Constitution in hand.

Those who would burn (reconfigure) our Constitution (which ain't gonna happen), can leave the U.S. of A.

I spoke very bluntly, yes.

Now, I think 'quranwatcher' is being silly in accusing Hesperado of being a 'jihadist'. My posting wasn't at bottom inspired by anything he said.

My disagreement with Hesperado is an old one, and I was trying to be specific, because it does seem to me, from some of the things Hesperado has said, that when he envisages mass deportation of 'Muslims' from the West (or from other places, like Israel, say, or the Philippines) he *does not exclude declared apostates from that envisaged future mass deportation*. Because I do gain the impression that, at bottom, he doesn't really believe that anybody *is* ever able to leave Islam anyway, whether they've been born into it, or joined it later in life.

The point of my posting was to try to find out whether, in those future mass deportations Hesperado would like to see happening, he *would* demand and insist that ALL APOSTATES FROM ISLAM, no matter who, no matter what their circumstances, should be assumed to be Muslims and swept up and thrown back into dar al Islam right along with the identified Muslims. Since it would be too much trouble or impossible (so he seems to think) to determine their bona fides, simplest to assume they're lying Muslims who never converted at all, and toss them out with the rest.

That's the sticking point, for me.

Speaking as a Christian: I am prepared to accept the need for deportation of *those who identify as Muslims*, and a stop to *Muslim* immigration.

But I simply cannot agree to, in addition, throwing out the babies with the bathwater: the Rifqa Barys, the Nonie Darwishes, the Canon Sookhdeos and the Wafa Sultans - that is, the openly-declared *apostates* from Islam, who have apostasised at different times in the past decades, while living in the West, who have consistently criticised Islam and made no excuses for it, who have consistently practised a non-Muslim belief system.

Because unlike Hesperado I am willing to assume that people like this (and there really aren't that many of them in toto - maybe a few thousand in any given western country, counting the lesser-known ones who keep a low profile under changed names, hiding from the sharia hit squads) *are* genuine; that *they are no longer Muslims*.

Because unlike Hesperado, while well aware of the ugly phenomenon of Taqiyya, I also have a strong sense of the power of God.

And whereas Hesperado seems to think Islam is the one ideology and brainwashing system ever invented by man that is perfectly impossible of escape and impervious to outside influence - a prison with neither doors nor windows - my answer to that is: Murphy's Law and SNAFU. By definition, anything made and sustained by fallible, mortal, temporal, mutable creatures is...fallible, mortal, mutable and temporal. The programming can break, and divine Grace *can* get into the prison in which a Muslim lives.

I shall be spending this upcoming Ramadan praying day by day by day for the defeat of the Jihad and for the *conversion of Muslims to Christ*.

Hesperado is free to tell me that all those prayers will be an utter waste of time. I don't think so.

@dda

When I began to actually comment here last week, I was attacked for insisting on the Constitution and the natural law as a way to have a clear identity which will not fall into being defined merely in reation to something like Islam. The Constitution was thought to be weak, something to be ignored, discarded. If one lives merely in reaction, one is open to being totally manipulated by the smarter of Al-Azhar grad students / imams. I think that happens from time to time here on Jihad Watch.

The change in society desired by Hesperado does not refer to changing the Constitution even by way of ammendments. He is going for wholesale destruction, whereby the "We the people" bit, with the inalienable rights, are trashed in view of letting Sharia honour killings go on right in the U.S.A., because, oh my, it is just so terribly difficult to do otherwise, too difficult to respect the Constitution.

When that kind of attitude goes hand in hand with horrific, truly Islamic like misogyny, I'm thinking that the guy is a jihadist. Silly? Maybe. I just can't wrap my mind around him not being a Muslim University student writing about the spread of the "new" Islam in America. Or, perhaps, he is an Imam thinking of a way to play the system with impunity, acting with Sharia even if it is not the declared supreme law of the land.

I really hope Fathima survives.

I'll join you in prayer for the conversion of Muslims. A number of Christians have been doing that since 7 October, 1571. When I mentioned that last week, I was also condemned for this.

I don't expect quranwatcher, from his comportment to date, to be able to read and think properly about what he has read; but I do expect dumbledoresarmy to do so.

For her to imply that I brand a Patrick Sookhdeo as "an evil fake" and "do not for one second believe his profession and practice of Christian faith to be genuine" and if I "were in power in the West" I "would either execute him on suspicion of being a deep-cover mole, or deport him" is to botch my argument like a barbarian.

In all the years I've spent on the Internet in various discussion forums (e.g., the membership-only forum dedicated to the conservative philosopher of history Eric Voegelin; The Examined Life philosophy forum; on nerve-jangling occasions the craigslist politics forum; perhaps most of all here at Jihad Watch; along with many others I can't remember specifically), while I've tangled with many interlocutors of varying degrees of irrationality and some even of mild forms of mental disorder, I had thought my experience with one Morgaan Sinclair -- who truly pushed the boundaries of hysterical insanity -- was unique. So congratulations are in order for quranwatcher who, if he is not merely pretending to be stark-raving unhinged out of some obscure trollery tactic, has attained an honorary place alongside the aforementioned Lady of the Double A.

Just like to say, after reading over this thread to date, that champ is no coward and has contributed greatly to this site, dda is as cooly rational, informed and on topic as one can find at JW and Hesperado, while I disagree with him to a fair extent respecting what to do about Muslims, is also very rational, often makes brilliant points and is certainly not a jihadist in disguise. Just for the record.

Just for the record

Does not Hesperado hold that women who are raped and then honour killed, or who convert from Islam and then are honour killed, are only the perpetrators and enablers anyway?

If Hesperado is so reasoned, why won't he defend his bits about women being the perpetrators and enablers?

The way I see it, Wellington, Champ, et alii, that kind of statement holding women to be guilty and liable for honour killings even though the women were, for instance, raped against their will, really does make one a jihadist. Does it not? Or is it that there are really quite a few here who just hate women so very much that this their horrific suffering is absolutely unimportant to them?

I think such violence of women should and must stop.

Just for the record, a coward is a man who stomps women into the ground. Just for the record.

I don't read Hesperado the way you do, quranwatcher. I see him as a very cautious man, too cautious I would argue, who understands Islam correctly but who also avers that we can't know what Muslims have really left Islam and so with extremely few exceptions, if any, for the good of Western societies we should assign virtually all Muslims to an exile from the West, including those who maintain that they have left Islam. In short, Hesperado is in full "for the greater good" mode here, too much so I would contend but I don't see any nefarious designs by him, only impracticality and overreach.

I don't share Hesperado's opinion about virtually all those brought up Muslim and he knows that I do not. I count on many Muslims eventually comprehending that Islam is a giant fraud and leaving their faith and I think there are a whole battery of tests we can use to determine sincerity by those claiming to be an ex-Muslim (and expecting 100% accuracy here is unrealistic, something like 90% accuracy will do). I don't even think that all practicing Muslims should be exiled from the West, though all Muslims should be read the riot act, told, in effect, that their religion is wicked and that ANY action by Muslims in the name of their faith that goes against ANY Western criminal law will be prosecuted forthwith. I would also argue that further Muslim immigration to the West should be banned and that there should be no special favors granted to Muslims. Encouraging Muslims to finally see the light and leave their warped creed should occur too.

In brief, I would treat Islam as America treats with Marxism and fascism. Here in the United States, being a member of the Communist Party or some Neo-Nazi organization is legal but so what? As long as an eye is kept on these jokers and they don't act out their ideologies fully and they know full well that their beliefs are despised by the vast majority of Americans, no real harm is done to the Republic. And so this could be with Islam---tolerated but scorned, looked upon as an ideology for losers and creeps. Were this done, I would not fear what Islam could do to America. Problem is that too many folks still treat Islam as a good thing and that's the real problem, the true problem, the problem of problems for our times.

@Wellington

It's just that I can't get my mind around the statement that "the victims [of islamic violence (such as women suffering honour killings)] are perpetrators and enablers."

That statement of his is nefarious. Nefas est.

Can no one directly, explicitely say that such a statement of his is nefarious?

Repeat after me: Women are not to be liable to honour killings just because they have been raped against their wills, just because they have converted away from Islam.

I know, Wellington, that you might say that there is no need to dwell on details, that you've already implied that you disagree. But, when it comes right down to it, I really wonder if you or anyone can explicity condemn that statement of Hesperado. I'd be happy if you could, and did. And when you answer that, I'll move on to Hesperado's statement about the Constitution, etc. Then we might see where we stand.

"So congratulations are in order for quranwatcher who, if he is not merely pretending to be stark-raving unhinged out of some obscure trollery tactic, has attained an honorary place alongside the aforementioned Lady of the Double A."

Right, a Nutjob. Pay no attention.

It's just that I can't get my mind around the statement that "the victims [of islamic violence (such as women suffering honour killings)] are perpetrators and enablers."

That statement of his is nefarious. Nefas est.

Can no one directly, explicitely say that such a statement of his is nefarious?

==========

I guess not.

True, Courreges W ...he is a nutjob, and a useful idiot as well. His ridiculous rants are like so many other muslims that have posted in the past, whom come on here starting out seemingly nice and appear to be against jihad, only to have them turn on a dime like a rabid dog going for blood. "quranwatcher" is one such poster whose only contribution of late has been one lie after another. He stands in line along with so many other mohammedans who twist and lie about what posters have said. He is one very evil person.

Like I said: "I guess not."

Quran Watcher, I replied to you on another thread asking you to read more closely when you referred to Hesperado—of all people!—as a "Jihadist".

I hadn't at that time read the whole of this thread, and just assumed you had misconstrued some comment of his. The idea that Hesperado is *in favor of honor killings*—or even likely a serial killer of women himself(!), or that Champ (who is female herself, by the way) is a "coward" and a vicious misogynist, is so bizarrely off-track that it is difficult to fathom how you could have come to these conclusions.

Champ and Hesperado—though I may occasionally disagree with him on some points—are entirely decent people and among the staunchest anti-Jihadists you could ever hope to encounter.

"There is a hadith which I read somewhere that if a man approaches his wife with the intention of sex and the wife refuses, then angels curse that woman till daylight. Does that mean that a wife is never to say no to her husband?"
Answer: All directives of the Qur’an and Hadith have common sense exceptions. The hadith which has been quoted pertains to a refusal by the wife without any genuine reason. If she is tired, ill or is not in the proper frame of mind, it is the husband who should adjust to the situation.
The Prophet (sws) has on a number of occasions instructed husbands as guardians of their wives to deal very affectionately with them. This is what he said in his hajj sermon:

Take good care of women, for they are in your trusts and have no control of their selves. You have only taken them as a trust from Allah, and you have been permitted by the words of Allah to have sexual relations with them. (Quoted from Ibn Hisham's Sirah)

Based on there own writings it seems that a man can't force himself on his wife. Sirah law has no place in the US COurt system--are our judges now expected to these laws as well to be able to make a correct ruling? INSANE!

@gravenimage

Like I said, I guess not.

You, see, no one logically take Hesperado's words and deal with them, merely throwing tantrums defending him.

So, tell me about these women who are perpetrators and enablers just be being raped against their will and then honour killed. Go for it!

Thank you, Graven ...I really appreciate your comment. The only reason why qw would make such wild assertions about Hesp and I is for one reason, and one reason only: qw is a LIAR.

The egregious lies being spread by "quranwatcher" reflects solely on her evil character, not on actual comments made by either Hesp or I. She should be banned forthwith. Liars should not be allowed to post on JW. Period.

"...pertains to a refusal by the wife without any genuine reason."

...

"Based on there [sic] own writings it seems that a man can't force himself on his wife."

Contradiction.

My previous post in response to "Lenny".

quranwatcher wrote:

@gravenimage

Like I said, I guess not.

You, see, no one logically take Hesperado's words and deal with them, merely throwing tantrums defending him.
..................

I've already gone over this here:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/07/jordan-muslim-murders-his-16-year-old-niece-in-honor-killing----she-was-a-rape-victim.html#comment-690579

More:

So, tell me about these women who are perpetrators and enablers just be being raped against their will and then honour killed. Go for it!
..................

*No one* here is saying this, or anything remotely like it.

Hesperado: "The difference between Islam and other societies & cultures is that in Islam, the victims are also perpetrators and enablers of the disease -- and as such, they are dangerous to us."

Context: honour killings.

quranwatcher: "that kind of statement holding women to be guilty and liable for honour killings even though the women were, for instance, raped against their will, really does make one a jihadist. Does it not?"

So... gravenimage... instead of failing once again to repudiate the jihadist supportive statement, you just turn a blind eye to what was said, again, to the detriment of women. Nevertheless, there it is.

Tell me, why do some seem to support this aspect of jihadism? And don't just scream that no one does. Show me this logically from the cited statement in the context of honour killings. What cited statement? Let's see it again:

Hesperado: "The difference between Islam and other societies & cultures is that in Islam, the victims are also perpetrators and enablers of the disease -- and as such, they are dangerous to us."

Let's repeat that again:

"The victims [women] are also the perpetrators and victims."

Say that to yourself a few times while you think of a woman who has just been raped against her will now getting her throat slit as an honour killing. Are you honestly telling me that you think that that woman is a perpetrator and victim? Do you really understand the position of women in Islam? Look at the knife dripping with blood. Do you honestly think that woman was perpetrating and enabling all this? Really?

It really just seems to me that anyone who could possibly think that that honour killing is desired by women is misogynistic and a jihadist. Why? Because this is the kind of thing such misogynists and jihadists do. Don't we read about all that here on Jihad Watch?

And yes, I do think that such attitudes are dangerous.

The original judge was completely wrong and the husband broke the law by raping his wife. It’s a good thing this ruling was overturned in appeal. The judge shouldn't have used religious belief as an excuse for breaking the law, but further he should have realized that the Islamic texts the husband gave do NOT give the him the right to rape his wife.

The first one especially seems to give the woman the final say: "If a husband calls his wife to his bed [i.e. to have sexual relation] and she refuses and causes him to sleep in anger, the angels will curse her till morning" (Bukhari 4.54.460).

So if she refuses, the husband has to sleep in anger. She has to deal with angels cursing her till morning, but she gets to refuse sex and the husband has to sleep in anger as a result of her decision.

The second one says "she should not refuse him" not that she must not refuse him and "should she refuse him" the first one has her punishment: angels cursing her until morning. Not "she shall be raped."

Again, religious belief is no excuse for breaking the law, but even the Islamic texts quoted don’t give the man the right to rape his wife. In fact, it says he has to sleep in anger if she refuses him. So both men (the judge and the husband) were wrong and the appeals court was right to rule he had to stand trial for rape.

Thank you vickie, I just now saw this!

~Eleanor

according to:

http://freethinker.co.uk/2010/07/27/sharia-creeps-into-new-jersey-courtroom-%E2%80%93-but-gets-short-shrift-on-appeal/


The Judge was:
Hon. Edith K. Payne, J.A.D.
(Judge, Part H, Appellate Division)
Suite 1101, North Tower
158 Headquarters Plaza
Morristown, NJ 07960-3965

Please feel free to let he know your opinion.

I believe Judge Payne was one of the three appeallate judges who heard the appeal and she wrote the appellate opinion overturning the trial judge.

I find it so extremely hard to understand why sadistic behavior should be considered a religion. Kill everyone who is not Muslim, if you are a Muslim then cutting off your hands or feet or maybe just a few fingers is acceptable in the eyes of your religion. Millions upon millions of people have been killed in the name of all the different GODS. Oh yes lets have a few more religions surface.

Although I completely agree with the appeals court that this judge came to the wrong decision, I believe that his attempting to balance the law against religious freedom was not wrong.

As for the judge refusing to grant the restraining order. Take that moron out and let him be raped by sheep, goats, and camels. See how he likes it.


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