Another "moderate" imam and supporter of Ground Zero mosque won't condemn Hamas

Andy, no comments at NRO's Corner. But perfectly done! You hit the issue that Robert hits on this site all the time.

It is a semantic argument. He is not defining things the way western civilization defines it.

Well done!

Bless the brave american soldiers. Whose the fascist through their words we can tell

While in Iraq, Eastridge (brave american soldier) had exhibited signs of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), was taking anti-depressants and sleeping pills, but was also taking valium, smoking pot and drinking whisky.

He had a history of aggression, and been charged with assault before he went on his second tour, but he was still deployed.

Referring to the indiscriminate and random shooting of civilians, He said Iraqi civilian deaths did not bother him at all: "You disassociate. To you they're not even people, you know. Like, they're not humans." The shooting of Iraqi civilians and self supremacist mentality was not isolated to this one evil individual. Indeed, many US soldiers openly mentioned on the BBC documentary "Wounded Platoon" That Iraqi civilians were viewed as nothing and lower than the Americans and no distinction was made between civilians and armed resistant fighters, as one American Fascist Terrorist put it, a dead Haji (Iraqi) was a dead Haji, it did not matter if he was an unarmed civilian or a armed combatant. Stories highlighted by the American Fascist Extremist included: "we would randomly open fire on civilians during patrols" " we kept scores of how many we would kill" "if children got shot it was not biggie"" was easy to do and get away with, (ultimate sign of cowards)". From the blazee manner in which American Fascist Extremist would kill civilians with impunity and their facist mentality it can be said that this is the tip of the iceberg, and the killings of civilians and fascist mentality and was institutionalized in the US army and widespread.

Imam Dawoud Kringle tried to sell a bridge not build one. There is and always has been ample opportunity or as "Dawoud" said, "possibility" and "real probability" for each and every mosque to "sit down and communicate" and "build bridges between different communities". The significant difference is the prestige such conquest at Ground Zero would provide his good friend Rauf in the Islamist community. Dawoud, like all climbing pyramid schemes, anticipates support of Rauf will pay dividends in recognition of in the global jihad heirarchy.

LAN ASTASLEM!

Get this clown out of the "New York City Department of Corrections". He supports genocidal organizations such as Hamas. Would the "New York City Department of Corrections" allow someone who refuses to condemn the KKK to keep working there????

If I lived in NYC, i would send a note to my representatives.

I'm extremely impressed.

The media is slowly waking up to the taqyah, which is being practiced on the side of the muslim leaders. A few years ago the trick would have worked and everyone would have thought this man is a moderate muslim. Then he get's asked whether he support hamas....he bables on.....

The journalist eventually turns away from the imam and turns to Mr. McCarthy, who gives a clear and concise explanation about what had just happened.

Robert, you should really guard this video and use it as a prime example of what islamic dissimulation is and how it can be exposed. This was journalism at its best!

There is nothing more irritating or dangerous than a Western convert to islam.

Dawoud Kringle ??

Obviously he's from the islamic branch of Christianity's Kris Kringle.

Now they are usurping our hallowed Christmas traditions?

Dawood kringle is probably quite ignorant about islam himself.

google his name and apparently he's also some kind of musician sufi. He probably doesn't even know about those hadiths where muhammad says music is sinful...

quite the sufi muslim!!!

"Imam Dawoud Kringle" just proves that Islam's 'bridges' lead into another, alternative reality, where religiously mandated genocide and terrorism pleases allah.

Reason, common sense, basic humanity, decency, all of it can be discarded once you utter the 'shahada' and make it your business to wipe out da Jooozzz and make the world Islamic, by all and any means.

That is what Imam "Dawoud Kringle's" newly found Islamic world view, in sync with those 1.5 gazillion peaceful, moderate muslims around the world who are of course all individuals who can't be terrorists because they're .... Muslims.

Ah yes, I almost forgot: logic is also a casualty on the way to Muhammad's bordello.....

Great to know that even those Americans who have avoided doing their homework about Islam can't avoid coming to some grim conclusions about the mosque and its supporters. Good for us that this punk, Kringle, is not ready for prime time. Even though they've got taqiyya on their side, him and Rauf just can't bring themselves to lie about condemning Hamas. With each passing day, they're losing this particular battle, which they must.

This guy teaches Islam in prisons...uh huh...So he is not a corrections officer at all...Sat right there and lied and obfuscated...Is Hamas a terrorist organization? Well...uh...grunt...mumble...He was clearly out of his league...

Intellectual dishonestly in clear relief. Deliberately murdering infidel children is not terrorism, it's resistance that pleases allah.

Imam Kringle, who seems like a nice enough fellow, reeled off the usual talking points about how Islam forbids terrorism...

*** 8:12 ***

I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

What an awful performance by Andrew McCarthy. For example, he coulda invoked this Koranic quote when the oily creep sitting across from him stated that "Islamophobia is rooted in ignorance" but McCarthy failed to do so, probably out of fear that The Truth Is The New Hate Speech (Cf., Pamela Geller).

I'm an Islamophobe. And the reasons I'm askeert of Moslems is based not on ignorance of Islam, but knowledge of it. Any Infidel who's not an Islamophobe, who does not fear Islam, is either mentially incapacitated or a fool.

Andrew McCarthy's cowardly, half-assed, shabby and foolish performance last night is why the Moslems will win: willful, pompous and obtrusive ignorance.

I'm in a hurry. I've not read all the comments yet. Maybe someone picked up on this.

The imam said there is not such thing as "Islamic terrorism." That is plainly untrue from a literal reading of the Qur'an, which commands the believers to "strike terror" into the hearts of unbelievers.

He then when on to say there can be "Muslim terrorists" but not Islamic terror. My first question would be, what is the difference between Muslim terror and Islamic terror?

If the imam is saying there can be and are, "Muslim terrorists," isn't he saying Muslims who commit acts of terrorism as a way of life according to their religious convictions are Muslims in good standing? He did not say Muslim terrorists are apostates. Did he? I'll have to go back and listen to the video again.

Will you condemn Israel as a terrorist state?

Israel itself was founded on terrorism. The practice of placing bombs on buses and in large crowds was introduced in Palestine by Zionists. Israeli terrorists murdered UN mediator Count Folke Bernadotte in 1948 because they didn't like his proposal to internationalize Jerusalem.

Future Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamier openly argued that "neither Jewish ethics nor Jewish tradition can disqualify terrorism as a means of combat." He said that terrorism had a big roll to play in the war against Britain.

Menachem Begin was referred to by Prime Minster Levi Eshkol as simply "the terrorist" as he was the head of the infamous Irgun, a militant Zionist terrorist group. Ariel Sharon was ruled to be responsible for the mass slaughters at the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps. He would go on to become Prime Minister. It seems that Osama bin Laden like terrorists are praised and elevated to high positions in government in Israel.

Israel's terrorism these days continues to make the relatively insignificant terrorism of Hamas seem to be just that: insignificant. Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, the Goldstone Report. All reaching the same conclusions. Israel's invasion of Gaza in late 2008 was to "punish, humiliate, and terrorize" the population. All carefully planned for that purpose. Israel has invaded Lebanon 5 times since 1982 with devastating consequences on the civilian population. 17,000 dead civilians in 1982. A couple of thousand at the more recent invasion in 2006. An absolutely buccaneering out of control terrorist state. Will Andrew condemn Israel for their terrorism? Or is condemnation only for the weak and virtually powerless?

Kringle lied and is a liar. There are numerous verses in the Koran which encourage terrorism. These are not verses relevant only to Muhammed's time. Neither are they abrogated by more peaceful verses. No, they are open ended directives that are all relevant today to all Muslims.

Gotta agree with APF on the "seems like a nice fellow" bit from McCarthy. It does not matter how "nice" a pro-Hamas fanatic muslim convert "seems". All that "nice" means is that he does not whip out a freshly sharpened scimitar and behead you on camera. "Nice" means absolutely nothing in moral terms. When you get one of these "nice" islamapologists on the hot seat, there is no excuse for letting up until you have utterly destroyed his arguments, his credibility, and his facade of "niceness". If he still comes off as "nice" to the audience by the end of the discussion, then you have failed.

On a side note about building bridges at GZ.... the Greek Orthodox Church is gathering supporters who want the St Nicholas Church re-built. They have a site on FACEBOOK. You can find the link at: goarch.org

THANX ROBERT!

From page 464 (690 in the Arabic) of THE EARLIEST MUSLIM BIOGRAPHY OF MUHAMMAD, MUHAMMAD PRESIDES OVER THE BEHEADING OF 600 TO 900 JEWS:

Then [Banu Qurayza] surrendered, and the apostle [Muhammad] confined them in Medina in the quarter of d. al-Harith, a woman of B. al-Najjar. Then the apostle went out to the market of Medina (which is still its market today) and dug trenches in it. Then he sent for them and struck off their heads in those trenches as they were brought out to him in batches. Among them was the enemy of Allah Huyayy b. Akhtab and Ka`b b. Asad their chief. There were 600 or 700 in all, though some put the figure as high as 800 or 900. As they were being taken out in batches to the apostle they asked Ka`b what he thought would be done with them. He replied, 'Will you never understand? Don't you see that the summoner never stops and those who are taken away do not return? By Allah it is death!' This went on until the apostle made an end of them.

Dawood Kringle is going to star in "Miracle at the World Trade Center", the heart-warmongering tale of an Islamic Santa Claus who gives little children the gift of Jihad to spread Sharia throughout Dar-el-Harb.
And kids, did you know that Jesus was a Muslim? That's right. But those devious Christians corrupted Allah's message when they wrote their Bible. But don't fret. Dawood Claus will come down the chimney and slice off their hands and feet on opposite sides if they persist in their blasphemy.
And every Zionist will get a stocking full of radioactive coal.
Merry Christmas!

This is as moderate as a Muslim gets. Most of them believe Osama is a great man and rest of them believe it was the Jews with help from CIA brought those towers down.

Yes wildjew, let's explore the question. I'll stay if you will.

This is not a hijacking of the thread. We're asked to condemn Hamas. Why shouldn't you likewise condemn Israel. They're terrorism is far more extensive. I will condemn the terrorism of Hamas if you will condemn the terrorism of Israel.

Paul, you won't condemn the founders, who did act as terrorists. Then why do you condemn Hamas? Is it only terrorism if dark skinned people do it?

And no, I did not compare Spencer to Ahab. I compared Spencer to the PROPHETS OF Ahab. The ones that tell the leadership what they want to hear, justifying their extensive atrocities, like the million Iraqi's killed due to US aggression based on a pack of lies. Maybe if you read more closely it would seem less funny and more apt.

MUST THE NON-MUSLIM WORLD ACCEPT ISLAMIC DEATH THREATS against journalists, cartoonists, teachers, feminists, democratic politicians? Shouldn't Western governments send agents to capture or kill the individuals who make such threats? Should we look on passively while significant parts of our media and society are intimidated by Islam into censorship? Doesn't freedom of thought matter?

BERNARD LEWIS SAYS THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF USES OF THE WORD JIHAD ARE MILITARY IN MEANING

According to Bernard Lewis, perhaps the most widely respected historian of the Middle East, "the overwhelming majority of classical theologians, jurists, and traditionalists [i.e., Islamic specialists in the Qur'an, hadith, and Sunna] ... understood the obligation of jihad in a military sense." See his book, The Political Language of Islam (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1988), p. 72. Lewis also writes that during most of the recorded history of Islam, "jihad" as a word was used in a mainly military sense. See his book, The Crisis of Islam, 2001, Chapter 2.

MUHAMMAD LEFT NO CLOACA UNREGULATED

In Sahih Bukhari, the most canonical hadith collection, Muhammad said that anyone defecating should take up a certain orientation in relation to Mecca:

"While defecating, neither face nor turn your back to the Qibla [direction of prayer, i.e., toward Mecca] ..." -- Muhammad

Just think what that means. In Saudi Arabia, if one could take an aerial photo of all the toilets, they would form a series of rings around Mecca, as if orbiting the Kaaba.

Kaaba, cynosure of all toilets.

Jon asks,

Is it only terrorism if dark skinned people do it?

Another guilt-ridden cracker.

ONE REASON IT'S DIFFICULT TO DELITERALIZE THE QUR'AN:

Qur'an, Chapter 3, Verse 7
He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of [the Qur'an] which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.

IN A CORE ISLAMIC TEXT, MUHAMMAD SAYS THERE SHALL BE NO MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS IN ISLAM

From Sahih Bukhari, the most canonical hadith collection:
Volume 7, Book 69, Number 494v:

Narrated Abu 'Amir or Abu Malik Al-Ash'ari:

that he heard the Prophet saying, "From among my followers there will be some people who will consider illegal sexual intercourse, the wearing of silk, the drinking of alcoholic drinks and the use of musical instruments, as lawful. And there will be some people who will stay near the side of a mountain and in the evening their shepherd will come to them with their sheep and ask them for something, but they will say to him, 'Return to us tomorrow.' Allah will destroy them during the night and will let the mountain fall on them, and He will transform the rest of them into monkeys and pigs and they will remain so till the Day of Resurrection."

Re: Headline.

That's why it's the "Hamasque" - and why Greg Gutfield has the perfect counter-plan.

http://libertyatstake.blogspot.com/
"Because the Only Good Progressive is a Failed Progressive"

Re: Headline.

That's why it's the "Hamasque" - and why Greg Gutfield has the perfect counter-plan.

http://libertyatstake.blogspot.com/
"Because the Only Good Progressive is a Failed Progressive"

"Paul, you won't condemn the founders, who did act as terrorists. Then why do you condemn Hamas ? Is it only terrorism if dark skinned people do it ?

First, you never responded to my original questions to you. Answer my original questions to you first - I will not play semantic games, with you.

Second, why do you feel it necessary to play the good ol' race card ? I never mentioned " dark skinned people ", in any of my comments. Nor did anyone else. Throwing in the race card, is a sign of dishonesty, an Al Sharpton technique.

So, you don't answer direct questions put to you,and then you toss in the race card, when you're put in a corner. Socrates would make mince meat out of you..

I don't mind exchanging ideas and opinions, with people who deal in facts. But you do not even meet that simple criteria.

But don't feel too bad... I have the same problem with my Father - in - law.

"a GZ mosque supporter. Imam Kringle, who seems like a nice enough fellow, reeled off the usual talking points about how Islam forbids terrorism"

no, he may 'seem' like a nice enough fellow but as is evident, what constitutes 'nice fellow' for muslims versus the rest of the world is different. I think the soft voice is the hook that allows us nonmuslims to assume there's some compassionate desires within the speaker, but I listened last year to the voice of Haj Amin Al-Husseini, hitler's buddy and the man who with all his might, prevented any so called accommodations for jews and or an 'Israel'. That man's voice was soft, gentle and he could advocate the extinguishing of the jews without raising his tone or timber one bit. It is not the coarse sounding thundering threatening voice of most of the imams and such as we are used too. Just so, the phony Imam Rauf and his phony 'metastasizing antisemitism of Islamophobia' wife Daisy Khan use soft sweet voices and it is a lie. They refuse any rememberance of say, the hamas charter that calls for the elimination of jews, and anything non muslim from the world in it's rule. Just so, This sweet sounding bozo, pretends it's some Israeli conflict that causes them to have some 'fringe' people who advocate such.... as opposed to it's very charter and of course from Mohammed himself.
Sweet sounding is a phony pretense, and the lies that continue are the denial that all muslims must engage to scrub the homicidism of their faith, the tyranny and submission of their faith, from infidels view.

Two misunderstanders of Islam and the Prophet Mohammad (PBUH)were arrested in Ottawa Ontario after a one-yer probe by RCMP. According to neighbors they were perfect little citizens. They seemed devout religious people and seemed to be always smiling. "It was a nice quite family". More...

Two misunderstanders of Islam and the Prophet Mohammad (PBUH)were arrested

We wish. That murderous genocidal pedophile should have been arrested. But we're a few centuries too late.

OK Mrs Eener, I'll answer as best I can. I'll be glad to get your sources.

Question 1-Don't know but I assume a is the closest. Here's my source. What's yours?

Question 2-a could be true. b sounds false.

Question 3 doesn't seem serious, so I won't answer it except to ask you for a non-IDF source that justifies the assertion that Palestinians are guilty of using human shields. We have multiple pictures of the IDF using human shields.

Question 4-They're for smuggling all kinds of things, including weapons. Why wouldn't people being bombed and shot routinely want weapons? Why shouldn't they have weapons?

Question 5-Of course Israel doesn't need to smuggle weapons. They get Apache attack helicopters and long range missiles openly. I suppose if Palestinians were enabled in their nuclear program by the US and given $3 billion a year for military funding they probably wouldn't bother with tunnels either. Also if they weren't subjected to a blockade.

Paul, let's repost your questions that I supposedly didn't answer:

"What terrorism are you talking about? Killing members of the rocket squads, which fire on the Israeli civilian population?"

Read the original post you are responding to. Do you read before replying? Next you ask:

"And you actually use the Goldstone report to back up your assertions ?"

Uhm, yes. I thought this was a rhetorical question, but apparently you didn't know what I would answer, so there you go.

Wellington, are you suggesting the US should be supporting democratic states? Hamas is democratically elected. So is Hugo Chavez. The US often resists or overthrows democratically elected governments. I oppose that. Do you?

Israel may be a democracy, but it's not a liberal democracy like the United States. It distinguishes itself as a JEWISH state, which is in it's very nature is in opposition to democracy.

The initial draft of the Basic Law on Human Dignity and Liberty in Israel had "All are equal before the law, and there shall be no discrimination on the grounds of gender, religion, nationality, race, ethnic group, country of origin or any other irrelevant factor." That sounds good. Unfortunately the Knesset removed this clause from the final version so that non-Jews could be distinguished from Jews. Israel has a separate law related to marriage between Jews and Arabs, which B'Tselem calls a "racist law."

You assert that the IDF actively seeks to minimize civilian casualties. What is your source for that claim? The IDF? All of the worlds most respected human rights institutions document that this is absolutely false.

So who are we to believe? Me and the most respected human rights agencies, or you, who must maintain that it's all a big conspiracy and only the IDF should be believed?

IN CORE ISLAMIC TEXTS, MUHAMMAD REPEATEDLY PROHIBITS PAINTINGS OF ANIMATE BEINGS, SAYS PEOPLE LIKE REMBRANDT AND RENOIR WILL SUFFER THE SEVEREST PUNISHMENT

Several examples from Sahih Bukhari, the most canonical of hadith collections:

Volume 7, Book 72, Number 834:
Narrated Muslim:

We were with Masruq at the house of Yasar bin Numair. Masruq saw pictures on his terrace and said, "I heard 'Abdullah saying that he heard the Prophet saying, "The people who will receive the severest punishment from Allah will be the picture makers.'"

Volume 3, Book 34, Number 428:
Narrated Said bin Abu Al-Hasan:

While I was with Ibn 'Abbas a man came and said, "O father of 'Abbas! My sustenance is from my manual profession and I make these pictures." Ibn 'Abbas said, "I will tell you only what I heard from Allah's Apostle . I heard him saying, 'Whoever makes a picture will be punished by Allah till he puts life in it, and he will never be able to put life in it.' " Hearing this, that man heaved a sigh and his face turned pale. Ibn 'Abbas said to him, "What a pity! If you insist on making pictures I advise you to make pictures of trees and any other unanimated objects."

Volume 8, Book 73, Number 130:
Narrated 'Aisha:

The Prophet entered upon me while there was a curtain having pictures (of animals) in the house. His face got red with anger, and then he got hold of the curtain and tore it into pieces. The Prophet said, "Such people as paint these pictures will receive the severest punishment on the Day of Resurrection ."

Far be it for me to tell others what to do, but Jon deserves no response at all...other than the middle finger saute...
He's a reincarnation of Abdullah M...Remember him?

They couldn't get anyone sharper than Kringle to go on Fox News against Andrew McCarthy? This stumbling, bumbling, inarticulate imam certainly didn't do anything to help his cause. He looked and acted like someone clocked him one right before the cameras turned on. Of course, that's probably just wishful thinking on my part.

Jon, you want sources, OK

I'm sorry I can't find the original sources I got these statistics from, but I found comparable sources from which we can extrapolate.

Here is an Arab website that lists Palestinian casualties and breaks down by gender from sept 2000 - sept 2004.

http://www.abudis.net/4year_intifada_stats.htm

Now, keep in mind that some of the casualties counted on this website are Arabs killed by Arab actions, not by Israelis. For example, in premature bomb detonations, misfired missiles, and execution of "collaborators." Even so, they report 209 females killed, which is only 6.2% of all casualties.

I had trouble finding statistics broken down by gender for Israeli casualties for the same time frame, but from this website

http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/mostly.html

There were already 190 Israeli females killed (all by Palestinian actions, not Israeli) by Jan 2003, more than a year and a half before 209 Palestinian were reported killed.

Question 3 doesn't seem serious,

It's completely serious. In general, Palestinian women and girls who refrained from attacking Israelis have been relatively safe from harm.

I won't answer it except to ask you for a non-IDF source that justifies the assertion that Palestinians are guilty of using human shields.

no problemo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTu-AUE9ycs

Why shouldn't they have weapons?

If the Palestinians would put down their weapons, there would be no more war. If the Israelis put down their weapons, there would be no more Israelis. You're a piece of work aren't you? You think the Israelis should play fair, huh? Share the weapons so they can enjoy a real fight. Oh, that's going to reduce casualties and suffering. Sure.

traeh, you're not really responding to what I said. I say I have the most respected human rights organizations on my side with regards to Israel's massive terrorism, use of human shields, racist laws, etc. I did not dispute that US backed dictatorships throughout the Middle East have an awful record as well. Israel enjoys much more freedom than say Egypt or Saudi Arabia. My point is that the US doesn't necessarily back democracies, so the fact that Israel is a democracy is not a particularly strong argument for favoring it and it certainly doesn't change the fact that it is a terrorist state. Hamas is democratically elected. Does this mean we should back them? The fact that you take this argument to somehow mean I "side with the dictatorships" is really nothing but a demonstration that you either lack reading comprehension skills or rational thinking skills.

From the vantage point of an ex-Muslim like myself, that interview was both hard to sit through and interesting as hell at the same time. Muslims are actually very easy to figure out when one understands the dogma and dictates of Islamic theology.

That “Imam” completely misunderstands his “religion” and is doing the exact opposite of what he should be doing by promoting Islam. It is ridiculous and highly irresponsible of him to have not familiarized himself with the works of the many great ex-Muslim writers. Writers such as Ibn Warraq, Ali Sina, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Wafa Sultan, Walid Shoebat, etc. etc.

~~~~~

Slightly of topic, but I suppose somewhat related none the less>>>

Former Gov. George Pataki was on Chris Matthew's “Hardball” (that show MUST be renamed “Softball” lol) this evening talking about the Ground Zero Mega Mosque.

What pissed me off royally were Pataki’s repeated statements: “I respect the Islamic religion”. “We respect Islam”, etc. etc. Non-sense!

Non-Muslims must put an end to this. There is nothing wrong with saying that you DO NOT respect the Islamic religion. It is not a crime to say that you DO NOT respect the Islamic religion. No one should respect Islam. No informed person could.

Say it right to the faces of the Muslims even. Of course first let them know that it is nothing personal, or you will increase the risk of being ATTACKED. Tell them to go right ahead and criticize your religion (whatever that religion may be) if they’d like. Once their light-weight hot-air runs out of gas, tell them that you would be happy to discuss the reasons why you do not respect Islam. Tell them about the ex-Muslims that you know and what Islam stipulates should be done to those who leave Islam.

In fact, print off and show them this short piece of writing below and watch them squirm:

Friendship is only possible in Islam if both parties remain in the religion forever. For Muhammad has ordered that Muslims who leave Islam must be killed.

If there are two Muslims sitting in front of the computer reading this article, they must admit that they should kill their friend if he or she tried to leave Islam. In no other major religion do we find such a truly evil commandment.

Muhammad’s Islam even demands that a Muslim disown his or her family members if they attempt to leave the religion. It says so right in the Quran!

009.023
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not for protectors your fathers and your brothers if they love infidelity above Faith: if any of you do so, they do wrong.

PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Choose not your fathers nor your brethren for friends if they take pleasure in disbelief rather than faith. Whoso of you taketh them for friends, such are wrong-doers.

SHAKIR: O you who believe! do not take your fathers and your brothers for guardians if they love unbelief more than belief; and whoever of you takes them for a guardian, these it is that are the unjust.

Islam is poisonous to human relationships. Whether a person is born into Islam or becomes a Muslim through conversion, they must remain in the religion for the rest of their lives or risk being killed by their former Muslim “brothers and sisters”. Muhammad said that those who leave Islam should be killed:

Hadith, Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 83, Number 17:

Narrated 'Abdullah:
Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims."

Nothing could be more clear cut when these Muslims refuse to condemn Hamas. No doubt most of us here have read the 36 articles of the Hamas Charter:

Hamas states that the articles in this charter are locked in stone just as are the 114 surahs of the Qu'ran. It is a hateful and murderous document towards the Jews and even America and yet this Imam Kringle (certainly no relation to Kris thank God ) continue to dance around the clear cut question. Hamas is Hamas and their are no variations in the those who belong to Hamas when it comes to the sworn creed called the Hamas Charter among them. I'm waiting for the next shoe to drop, but I still haven't heard the question I'd like to also hear : Is Hizbollah a terrorist organization?

The video was enlightening..this thread as well. My question:

How can any muslim take part in a debate (about Islam) and defend his faith against anyone who understands Islam?

Kringle wants to "reach out" and show the true values of Islam? He means he wants to brainwash poor souls who need a friend; just like he is brainwashed. Yuck.

None of these interviews goes on for long enough.

I'd like to see something a bit longer, and more open-ended, kind of like what Andrew Denton of Australia's ABC does with his 'Enough Rope' program.

I'd like to see, say, Mr Spencer on one sofa, Wafa Sultan or Nonie Darwish on another, and Imam Rauf and Daisy Khan side by side on a third.

And then let the 'conversation' begin, with the interviewer merely setting the stage and, perhaps, enforcing a time limit (say, 5 minutes allowed for any given speech, whether question or reply).

I'd like to see how Rauf and Khan reacted to being face to face with a blasphemer and an apostate, for about an hour, in a situation where the blasphemer and the apostate are free to ask - and pursue - whatever question they like.

Just let the encounter unfold and see if it gets to the point where the masks rip off and the monster comes snarling out into the open. (You might need a few security guys hovering discreetly in the wings; I'm serious).

I reckon you might end up filming something that makes 'The Exorcist' look tame.

Ohohoho! I have the video running right now. He said that Islam prohibits terrorism.

OHOHOHOHOHO!

"I am made victorious through terror" - Mohammed

What about that?!

The guy is lower than a rat.

Keith Olbermann interviews Ziad Ramadan, who calls Robert Spencer a "Jim Jones" who is "poisoning people over the internet":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HELWgFJsjCc

Keith Olbermann interviews Ziad Ramadan, who calls Robert Spencer a "Jim Jones" who is "poisoning people over the internet":

Now that's a good trick...I thought only Olberman, Bloomberg and Rauf and the talking heads on cable could do that...

Regarding the stabbing of the NYC cabbie by the drunken Enright, I think we should reply in the same language by saying that the drunk was a MISUNDERSTANDER OF CRITICISM OF ISLAM.

If Muslims who perpetrate violence against nonMuslims can be called "misunderstanders of Islam" then nonMuslims who perpetrate violence against Muslims can be called "misunderstanders" too.

Fair is fair. Let's see how the apologists like that.

Related (old) news that makes me wonder again, is there a RICO case that can be made? [wiki says private suits allowed, triple damages]

http://www.islamdaily.net/EN/Contents.aspx?AID=5999

---

Ok, I need some respite after all this talk of Islam's supremacist mayhem. I'm going to watch George Romero's 2008 film, Survival of the Dead.

In other words, according to the Imam, Islam regards terrorism as un-Islamic and anyone who commits terrorism is un-Islamic. However, at the same time Hamas isn't a terrorist organization. Hence, it couldn't be more obvious that when we say terrorism and they say terrorism, apparently we are talking about two entirely different things.

Apparently, terrorism when waged against non-Muslims isn't terrorism it’s legitimate resistance. Now remember that next time you see a phony Muslim civil rights organization like CAIR or ISNA issuing fake denunciations in response to terrorist attacks. If they are not specifically denouncing legitimate resistance against non-Muslims, then you know they are being disingenuous.

he sez' "....the fear of Islam is rooted in ignorance".

Ha!....more correctly the fear of Islam is rooted in knowing the truth about Islam....and Muslims really hate it when Infidels know the truths about Islam....once you learn how Islam deals with people and their freedoms it becomes easy to be a little fearful...and you should go out and alert your friends about the truths about Islam...it is OK to call it Islamophobia....

Islam = filth
Enough said.

Jon successfully hijacked the thread. His tactics: Tu Quoque. This is a logical fallacy. So now people are talking about Israel.

The question is: Is Hamas a terrorist organization.

So, people, if you respond to someon like that you don't fall for the trick.

You just prove that Hamas is a terrorist organization, for example by quoting their charter:

http://middleeast.about.com/od/palestinepalestinians/a/me080106b_2.htm

Or showing that hamas promotes war and terror:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWxQS81gXeI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82DqXmvDXXg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKxWA0nHlZU&feature=related

Hello Jihad Watch.
Here is a story that i found yesterday.

Islamic Center Of Beverly Hills:

"As a soldier in the army of God in America promoting Islam, this is our uniform, our leader is Prophet (PBUH) and our constitution is preserved in the Holy Quran.
We must not be afraid of Kofars not approving our clothes or our outwardly appearance.
As good pious Muslims, we should not dress like Churchill Truman or Dugoul. We should emulate our Beloved Prophet (PBUH) outwardly as well as inwardly"

http://transsylvaniaphoenix.blogspot.com/2010/01/islam-and-neck-ties.html

Jon doesn't get it. We just don't care.

nabi ZK (pbum)

I think "Jon" was probably long gone by the time MrsEener posted her links, that he demanded, at 7:55pm.

He's like that.

Now the NY Times, in its constant coverage of how those who question the attacks on Israel and America by Muslims, has revealed that the Jews are organizing to control Wikipedia.

Whatever.

http://jewishdailyreport.wordpress.com/2010/08/26/ny-times-jews-dominating-wikipedia/

Bless the brave american soldiers. Whose the fascist through their words we can tell

Eastridge (brave american soldier)
He had a history of aggression, and been charged with assault before he went on his second tour, but he was still deployed.

Referring to the indiscriminate and random shooting of civilians, He said Iraqi civilian deaths did not bother him at all: "You disassociate. To you they're not even people, you know. Like, they're not humans."

The shooting of Iraqi civilians and self supremacist mentality was not isolated to this one evil individual. Indeed, many US soldiers openly mentioned on the BBC documentary "Wounded Platoon" That Iraqi civilians were viewed as nothing and lower than the Americans and no distinction was made between civilians and armed resistant fighters, as one American Fascist Terrorist put it, a dead Haji (Iraqi) was a dead Haji, it did not matter if he was an unarmed civilian or an armed combatant.

Stories highlighted by the American Fascist Extremist included: "we would randomly open fire on civilians during patrols" " we kept scores of how many we would kill" "if children got shot it was no biggie"" "killing civilians was easy to do and get away with, (ultimate sign of cowards)". From the blazee manner in which American Fascist Extremist would kill civilians with impunity and their facist mentality it can be said that this is the tip of the iceberg, and the killings of civilians and fascist mentality and was institutionalized in the US army and widespread.

Do you people condemn this? or are crimes, terrorism and murder defined not by the act but by whose doing the killing.

The tolerance we are showing to these Muslims is taken by them as weakness.Every Time they spin on the issues to present themselves as victims as you saw this guy talk about the islamophobic sentiment.Islam is governed by sharia law,an anachronic system of law that is in direct conflict with our system and our constitution.Therefore Islam can not be treated as a religion and as a direct result all Mosques should be considered centers of illegal proliferation of seditious material.
It's directors and Iman's are financed by foreign governments which is a direct interference in our system and has to be stopped.

Where's Jonny?

LOL

Yet another smoking gun. It won't change the minds of the self-deluded.

Holy crap. He even goes to shake his hand at the end. Their deception is so horrible.

It is the issue here. Jon says Israel is a state sponsor of terrorism and it was born in terrorism. Most of these leftist who believe Israel is state sponsor of terrorism, also believe the US is a state sponsor of terrorism. If a nation has to resort to terrorism in times of exigency or in response to terrorism, this does not make that nation a state sponsor of terrorism. Hamas IS a terrorist regime. It's very existence is based on bloody terrorism, mass-murder and violence. Not so Israel. Israel is not a terrorist state. Neither is the US. States must defend themselves. Even if, in the final analysis, Israel or the US must resort to terror in response to terror, that does not make them terrorist states.

Where did I say it does, for Pete's sake?
And, generally, why do you waste all that flak on me?

And according to my understanding of terror, which is the strategy of deliberate targetting of civilians to achieve political/military goals, Israel does NOT belong in that category.
Strangely, you imply that it does, but it has good reason to do so.
To which I, again, must respond with:

1. Israel NEVER deliberately targets civilians

2. you are trying to introduce a concept of good, or at least, justifiable terrorism, all depending on the circumstances in which it is applied and therefore rendering the concept of terrorism completely free from moral connotation. In light of that your (otherwise just) condemnation of Hamas on moral grounds makes it incoherent and a lame duck vis a vis criticism from a reasonably quick imams like Rauf.

What of the nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? This was not terrorism? Come on Thomas.

Gosh, you are so quick to put words in my mouth - long before I do it myself. Really, on the basis of what that I have said do you assume to know my position on the nuclear bombing ofJapan?

list of SOME muslim terrorist in USA:
-Madoff;the haji who scam some chosenites.
-the Halal (kosher in hebrew)organ ( probably from palestinian terrorist kids and infants)haji rabbis.
-the muslims sharia law abiden banks( Goldman Sucks and co) who screw the American citizen.

traeh, I didn't say some don't seek the destruction of Israel. I said Israel is not seriously threatened. Israel has a military that is so extensively superior to any other in the region, in fact the most powerful of any NATO power other than the United States, that the fact that some starving Hamas individuals with stones and bottle rockets would like to see it destroyed is irrelevant. They are not a serious threat.

Hamas also has offered peace at the '67 borders, which is the international consensus, numerous times, despite their charter. There's been some vacillation, but they've indicated at times a willingness to accept a two state settlement. The charter of Likud likewise calls for the elimination of any conceivable Palestinian state. So if Hamas is to be condemned, should Likud be condemned?

So we're back to the subject of this thread. McCarthy asks us to condemn Hamas as a terrorist group. Fine. I'll do it. If he'll condemn Israel as a terrorist state. You tell us to object to Hamas because their charter doesn't permit the existence of the state of Israel. Fine. I'll object to it. If you object to the Likud Charter which doesn't permit the existence of a Palestinian state. And not only does the Likud Charter read that way, but the Israeli government actively engages in policies which prevent the existence of a Palestinian state, while Hamas has no ability to prevent the existence of an independent Jewish state. So why do you object to Hamas when they have no ability to implement their charter, but you don't object to Likud which in fact is actively implementing their identical charter?

wildjew says:

"They illegally occupy Jewish land."

Please explain which laws Palestinians are violating by living in the West Bank and Gaza. Point me to the legal rulings that show them to be illegally residing there.

By that set of laws children should be stoned for being disobedient, people should be killed for picking up sticks on a Saturday, homosexuals should be killed, eating shellfish is an abomination. Americans would generally pass on theocracy.

I have been a reader of Jihad Watch, but I have never made a comment. The following is simply a bit of information that most people do not know. Most of us who are knowledgeable about the true nature of Muhammad and Islam know about Tours, Vienna, and Lepanto, but the victory over the Moslem Turks under the leadership of Saint Lawrence of Brindisi, priest, Capuchin friar, and Doctor of the Catholic Church, just came to my attention. I hope you will all find this interesting. This particular paragraph was produced early in the twentieth century, and the German name of the location of the battle is now an Hungarian name.

It was on the occasion of the foundation of the convent of Prague (1601) that St. Lorenzo was named chaplain of the Imperial army, then about to march against the Turks. The victory of Lepanto (1571) had only temporarily checked the Moslem invasion, and several battles were still necessary to secure the final triumph of the Christian armies. Mohammed III had, since his accession (1595), conquered a large part of Hungary. The emperor, determined to prevent a further advance, sent Lorenzo of Brindisi as deputy to the German princes to obtain their cooperation. They responded to his appeal, and moreover the Duke of Mercœur, Governor of Brittany, joined the imperial army, of which he received the effective command. The attack on Albe-Royal (now Stulweissenburg) was then contemplated. To pit 18,000 men against 80,000 Turks was a daring undertaking and the generals, hesitating to attempt it, appealed to Lorenzo for advice. Holding himself responsible for victory, he communicated to the entire army in a glowing speech the ardor and confidence with which he was himself animated. As his feebleness prevented him from marching, he mounted on horseback and, crucifix in hand, took the lead of the army, which he drew irresistibly after him. Three other Capuchins were also in the ranks of the army. Although the most exposed to danger, Lorenzo was not wounded, which was universally regarded as due to a miraculous protection. The city was finally taken, and the Turks lost 30,000 men. As however they still exceeded in numbers the Christian army, they formed their lines anew, and a few days later another battle was fought. It always the chaplain who was at the head of the army. "Forward!" he cried, showing them the crucifix, "Victory is ours." The Turks were again defeated, and the honour of this double victory was attributed by the general and the entire army to Lorenzo.

Bill Foley

The Torah records the execution of an individual that dared pick up sticks on a Saturday. That's not a warning. That's a law.

Allah is brutal but YHWH isn't? Check I Sam 15. YHWH commands the execution of men, women, children, babes at the breast, cattle, oxen. Why? A few hundred years earlier their ancestors blocked Moses from passing through their territory. That's loving kindness and mercy? This is what you think should form the legal basis of a land settlement in Palestine? The supposed holy writings of one particular tribe that says "God tole me we get the land, and the proof is in this backwards, genocidal, and erroneous book." That's very hard to take seriously.

The Torah records the execution of an individual that dared pick up sticks on a Saturday.

The last Saturday? A week earlier?

...and the proof is in this backwards, genocidal, and erroneous book."

Any other proofs more reliable than derived from this "erroneous book"?

Israel itself was founded on terrorism.

Of course this has no basis in factual reality. But this hallucination is a keystone to the Islam Fictive Reality which Western Civilization is surfing to its probable doom nowadays.

*** 8:12 ***

I respect the Islamic religion

At least Governor Pataki has an excuse: he's an Ivy League Moron, and therefore is uneducated, ahistorical, incapable of self-education and critical thinking.

Next we turn to your second website, which contains many assertions about the # of females killed.

I challenge you to find any other websites that break the casualties down by gender to compare them. You won't find any. Why? PRECISELY BECAUSE IT MAKES THE PALESTINIANS LOOK BAD. Not only by gender, but by age. Oh yes, all of the major new organizations were careful to tally the total number of dead. And they were careful to tally the total number of children under the age of 18, or 17 or whatever it was. But if you look also at the elderly, defined as over the age of 45, I believe it was, you will also see a glaring difference between the Israeli and Palestinian casualties. I can't remember the exact numbers, but I believe the Palestinian casualties over the age of 45 was around 3% of the total, while Israeli casualties over the age of 45 was around 30% or so. Something like that. I may be off by a few percentage points. The facts are that the Palestinian casualties are starkly skewed toward young males, while the Israeli casualties are more distributed like the general population. Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International and B'Tselem, who you consider to be reliable unbiased sources, are anything but, and this is just one of the many many many many proofs.

if I were to simply quote Hamas and the Hamas military (if they had one) would that be persuasive for you?

Well, golly, that's exactly what Amnesty International did as "proof" the IDF uses human shields. They use testimony from the Arabs themselves. No other proof is needed to damn the IDF.

There is no question that the age and gender distribution of Israeli casualties was close to the age and gender distribution of the general population. Not only could you verify this by counting the victims themselves

http://www.all4israel.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=faces

but you also can assume this by reading the news and noting that a relatively few number of Israeli deaths occurred during combat, which resulted in exclusively young male casualties. Most of the Israeli casualties occurred during homicide bombings and drive-by shootings, the targets of which were almost always gender/age neutral and resulted in randomly distributed casualties.

the widely regarded experts in the field.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_Time_Immemorial

You have serious problems if you think Wikipedia is any sort of reliable source of information. I started doing some interesting research of my own in this area. I bought dozens of books published during the 18th, 19th, and early 20th centuries describing the Ottoman Empire and the province of Syria (what is now Israel), administered from Damascus during this time frame. "From Time Immemorial" happens to be spot on.

I assume what he means is the whole of the Palestinian people are engaged in violent resistance. This is not what people normally mean by "human shield".

I said if Palestinians didn't want to be Shahids, they should refrain from [voluntarily] acting as human shields. There is plenty of evidence the Palestinians use civilians as unwilling human shields as well. In either case, the death toll of the Palestinians was so much higher than the Israeli death toll, partly because the Palestinians deliberately put either themselves or others in harms way, while the Israelis protect their lives and the lives of their citizens. That was my point. That was also the point of the questions about the smuggling tunnels and and bomb shelters. The Palestinians hate the Israelis more than they love themselves. Until that changes, there will never be peace.

If you want to argue about which side has been more in the practice of using unwilling human shields, that's another subject. There is no question that it is the policy of the Palestinian terrorists to operate in populated areas. They choose to attack from schools, hospitals, mosques, private homes and other residential and commercial areas. Don't think for one moment there aren't other options for staging their attacks. There are plenty of open areas in Gaza, especially after the recent expulsion of the Jews. They choose to put the Palestinians in harms way, and there's no way they asked permission of all of them.

No evidence was found that Hamas used human shields during operation Cast Lead by the Goldstone Report.

HAHAHAHAHA. Sorry, that's about all I can say. The more you cite the Goldstone Report, Amnesty International, and B'tzelem as thought they were legitimate, unbiased sources of information the more ridiculous you seem. You probably think the UN is also legitimate. You probably believe the UN Human Rights Council, some of the members of which are the worst violators of human rights in the world, is going to make the world a better place. The world is never going to be a better place till everyone faces the real facts and deals with the real problems. They need to stop focusing on boogyman Israel. Israel is not perfect. They make a lot of mistakes. They do violate human rights, both Arab and Jewish, by the way. But the way the world, the UN, "peace activists" and such focus so exclusively on Israel and ignore all the horrible things going on in the rest of the world, it's hard to take them seriously. It's hard to stomach even agreeing with them when they by some slim chance happen to be right about something. They're so hypocritical and insincere, the knee-jerk reaction by anyone looking at the situation without bias is to immediately dismiss whatever they say. And that is a shame. Because by focusing on all the bogus claims of human rights abuses by Israel, the real abuses, by Israel and others, aren't being addressed.

Some great points made in the postings above.

*** 9:3 ***

But why bother with the history and facts of this whole mess? The big story here, if I may, is that we've put ourselves on a direct course for disaster, and addressing the problem in an honest and open way ain't allowed. Ain't allowed by the media, ain't allowed by the professors, ain't allowed by the teachers, or the judges or the permanent government bureaucrats or by the preists or the biz execs or the financial elites. Ain't allowed by no Infidel that counts.

In other words, rational behavior is out, not an option. The big question is whether it can make a comeback.

*** Bukhari Vol 2 Bk 24 Nbr 555 ***

If you doubt whether an Islam Fictive Reality in force, why the facts of matters Islam are left unknown, consider whether ahistoricity brought into being, and whether it is now being replaced with fake history, led by our born Moslem Prez Obama, but started decades earlier by his predecessors in the Ruling Elite. To understand, let's take a comparative example:

There's been a Fiscal Fictive Reality in force in America for decades now. Unless the laws of economics has been suspended, the service on our debt will rise to a third or more of the GDP. The only way to avert that is to put prevailing economic policy is to reverse it immediately, which ain't likely to happen. If the current planned debt increases are realized, that will leave us only two options, default on the bonds or hyperinflate the currency.

Either policy would be an economic disaster, but that's the plan. Everybody seems to know what's coming, but everybody shrugs his shoulders, shakes his head, and plows on thinking we'll somehow figure a way to deal with the problem later.

We're doing with our Islam policy: the disaster is inevitable on the current course, but we can't change the policy cuz we can't have a frank and open reality-based public discourse about it.

Our elites are lost in shells of Fictive Realities, Islam and political economy being only two of them. We are purposefully driving ourselves over the cliff in a vehicle of bad information.

The facts of Islam are important, yes, but more important is the fact that few know them, it's a near crime to publicly acknowledge them, and we resolutely refuse to act on them because they sit unacknowledged.

This could be subject to censorship...we'll see.

He said the Ground Zero mosque would help people discover the Islamic side of spirituality.
The only one who is” ignorant of Islamic spirituality” is Dawoud Kringle.

He uses, as every other "weak excuses supporter" does, the very same paraphrase... "building bridges"...that Imam Feisal Rauf uses.

Prior, he exclaimed "Islam forbids terrorism". Really?

I haven't yet read that in the Qur'an. Perhaps Islam forbids terrorism against its own believers but Mohammad strictly enforced terrorism against the non-believers...
"I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle." Qur'an:8:12
And:
"Little do you remember My warning. How many towns have We destroyed as a raid by night? Our punishment took them suddenly while they slept for their afternoon rest. Our terror came to them; Our punishment overtook them." Qur'an:7:3
And here:
"Allah made the Jews leave their homes by terrorizing them so that you killed some and made many captive. And He made you inherit their lands, their homes, and their wealth. He gave you a country you had not traversed before."Qur'an:33:26

Methinks this Prison Imam does not know his Qur’an, Hadith or Sira.
I highly recommend that Dawoud read "Prophet of Doom" and "The Complete Infidel's Guide to the Koran"
Seems like a nice guy but “Kris Kringle” of Islam he is not.

In other news...

The RCMP and CSIS have uncovered three (3) more Islamic terrorist plotters in Ottawa and London, Ontario.

They discovered over 50 circuit boards used for detonating IEDs along with videos, drawings, books, schematics and electronic equipment to create an IED.

One of the terrorists, Khummar Sher, 28, from London, Ontario, once appeared on Canadian Idol, LMAO, and was working as a Pathologist at St. Thomas, Elgin General Hospital. Which begs me to ask this question...how can a non-believer, like you or me, determine who is a moderate Muslim and who has potential to be a terrorist at any moment and anywhere? Are we safe where we live anywhere in Canada or any "Infidel nation"? We cannot trust them!

I'm sorry all you "die-hard" and "die-easy" Muslims, but that is the atmosphere your so-called prophet (pohg) of doom has created. The 1400 years of violent history proves that you cannot be trusted.

So get off the taqiyya, take up tequila, and join the fun.
Paradise is right here on earth if you just look for it.
Leave your stupid ideology in the dustbin of history.

Tell all your friends to give Islam the boot and "join the human race" and have a beer and hotdog at "Joe's Place" instead of the fictional 72 virgins at the "martyrs place". It doesn't exist! It was just Mo's way of getting you to die for him.
You've all been used by the money crunching Imams and Caliphs! Wake up for cryin' out loud! Get a life for a change...it's much better than death!

I remember a conversation I had with some muslim friends and they told me that if they shared their faith with me I would become muslim. I do believe that the spread of Islam is in large part due to its prescriptive nature for managing your own life.

If your son came home and told you he was thinking of joining a religious group that would kill him if he ever left, you would tell him he was messing with an insidious cult.

Well...?

There are a number of problems with your analysis. First of all, the total number of Israeli casualties in the last ten years is 1364, not 1072. Second, any count of Palestinian casualties (including those by HRW and B'tzelem) includes people killed by Palestinian actions, including "work accidents," homicide bombers (erroneously called suicide bombers), people killed supposedly because they were collaborators, misfired missiles, and so forth. The Israeli tally, I honestly don't know if that includes Israelis killed by friendly fire. Even if it does, the number of those are relatively small, maybe around 20 I'm guessing.

Furthermore, unfortunately the only website I could find dividing Israeli casualties by gender only covered the time period from sept 2000 till sept 2002. The number of females killed as a percentage of total, did rise from 32% to somewhere around 45%. It has almost certainly dropped since then because there have been so few non-combatant deaths in the last few years. Not from lack of trying on the Palestinians' part, though, it is important to note. It's not like they've stopped trying to send homicide bombers to blow up more pizza parlors and discos. And the 10,000 rockets they've lobbed over from Gaza haven't been meant to amuse the Israelis like fireworks displays or something. Israel has spent a lot of effort on ways to protect its citizens, and it has worked. Meanwhile, the Palestinians deliberately put non-combatant Palestinians in jeopardy as they spend all their efforts on ways to kill more Israelis.

I apologize I was in error about the 2.5 times more Israeli causalities in the last 10 years. It was true 4 or 5 years ago (at one point it was over 3 times more Israeli female casualties), but since there have been fewer Israeli non-combatant deaths in the last few years, that has certainly changed. I didn't take that into account. I would still guess that the total number of Israeli females exceeds that of Palestinian females, but not by 2.5 times. No one bothers to report these numbers though, because it doesn't make the Israelis look bad.

It is still true that the distribution of Palestinian casualties is glaringly skewed toward young males. The females and the elderly are "mysteriously" underrepresented. That doesn't make sense if the Israelis really are, as they are constantly being accused of, indiscriminately killing people.

Amnesty International says that 105 women over the age of 50 were killed

I'm curious if you can find any AI report that divides casualties by gender before Dec 2008. My guess is you can't, because AI is not unbiased. Any such report would have shown the glaring discrepancy I have pointed out which wouldn't conform to the accepted narrative.

That doesn't include females that your IDF source would regard as combatants.

Actually, they automatically categorize all females as non-combatants. That is not necessarily the case, of course. It is interesting to note that often combatants will disguise themselves as women, putting the real women further in danger.

Furthermore, all Palestinian casualties during the Gaza incursion are counted as caused by Israeli actions. It is difficult to believe that with all the gun fire and booby traps everywhere, that none of the Palestinian casualties were cause by "friendly fire."

Another issue is that I seem to remember some criticism of the counts of casualties including any reported deaths, even of those who possibly died old age or advanced disease. Those numbers are likely to be relatively small, but it all adds up.

But the main point I was trying to make was that Israel has tried and for the most part succeeded, albeit imperfectly, to target only combatants and to limit non-combatant casualties. The fact that the Palestinians don't care much about their own lives or the lives of their civilians, added to that they have trained and brainwashed their their civilian population to act as willing human shields makes the Israeli job that much harder. It is actually astounding that they have managed to keep the non-combatant body count as low as it is considering the difficult positions the Palestinians force them into.

Sorry, I'm really late to the party, but I would like to point out that I think that Jon's posts really show the disaster of Bush's whole 'War on Terror' euphemism, and the futility of his idealistic hope of bringing democracy to the "Muslim World." As seen above, these intellectually weak ideas allow fifth columnists such as Jon to red herring away endlessly, bringing up any alleged acts of terrorism by the US or its allies at any time in history to show that we are morally no better than our enemies, and therefore have no right to fight them. Furthermore, Bush's focus on democracy allows him to demand, in the interest of fairness, that we support any third world demagogic dictator for life, so long as he or his cabal managed to become 'democratically' elected.

I really don't care that much about terrorism in and of itself. I'm not too concerned with Basque or Sikh terror. These are regional issues. Terrorism is a tactic not an enemy. The enemy are those fighting to implement the Sharia, and this enemy is a global one, not confined by any geographic borders.

We didn't hate the Nazis for employing Blitzkrieg. We shouldn't hate our current enemies because they employ terrorism or use human shields, or because of any subjective body counts or other distracting dick measuring contests in which fifth columnists such as Jon would like to engage. We should hate and fight them because their ideology, and what they fight for -Sharia- is rotten to the core.

Furthermore, I'm not concerned about bringing democracy to the 'Muslim world,' which is a futile enterprise without an Islamic reformation, as Islam as a complete way of life is intrinsically theocratic. I won't go any further on this point, as Hugh has written about it extensively and repeatedly, but suffice it to say, we aren't going to make much progress on the propaganda front of this global war until we jettison all the terrorism and democracy nonsense.

'Jon', above, doing the usual thing that our Mohammedtrolls and their janissaries do, which is, tu quoque attempting to pretend that the TaNaKh is as bad as, or worse than, the Quran, Sira and Hadith, writes:

'The supposed holy writings of one particular tribe that says "God tole me we get the land, and the proof is in this backwards, genocidal, and erroneous book."'

'Backwards, genocidal and erroneous book'.

Well, having read both the Bible, from cover to cover, every last word of it, and having read every word of the Quran plus a fair sampling of Sira and Hadith, I think I know which set of Scriptures *I'd* describe as 'backwards, genocidal, and erroneous'.

To wit: the weird, incoherent, ultra-violent and hate-saturated 'scriptures' (Qur'an, Sira and Hadith) that were cooked up in order to justify and promote Arab supremacism and an Arab programme of Total World Domination; the Arabic scriptures that are a vehicle for Arab imperialism.

The Jews believed they'd been given the - minute, by any standards - patch of dirt known as the 'Promised Land', or Land of Israel. Outside of that territory, well, they did not regard themselves as required to impose or enforce anything on anybody else. And this is pretty damn clear from the history - their own, and that of outside observers. Most of the time the Hebrews/ Jews had a hard time even to defend themselves within the set boundaries. There is no this-worldly step-by-step programme for Total World Domination anywhere in the TaNaKh, such as there is in the Islamic texts. And Jesus, who was Jewish, sent his followers out to 'teach', NOT to conquer by the sword.

I think it's Ibn Khaldun, a Muslim, who observed that Jews and Christians engaged in warfare for self-defence, whereas Muslims had an obligation to gain power over others.

The *Muslims* are the ones who really do believe that not just the land of Israel but the *entire planet* and everything in it - indeed, the entire *universe* - belongs to them or their allah by right, and that all kuffar - those who don't observe sharia or grovel to 'allah' or regard 'Mohammed' as a 'prophet' - are illegally occupying it and are (unless they convert to Islam) the rightful prey of any Muslim capable of treating them as such. Anyone who doesn't believe this should pick up and read two books by ex-Muslim Canon Patrick Sookhdeo: 'Faith, Power and Territory' and 'Global Jihad'.

John Roy Carlson, in 'Cairo to Damascus', having interviewed one of the head jihad gang bosses of the Ikhwan, or Muslim Brotherhood, in Cairo, writes about them and their straight-down-the-line Muslim revivalist program, in a chapter entitled 'Islam, Islam Uber Alles'. He sees clearly that what they were after was nothing less than to conquer, and rule, and forcibly Islamify, the entire planet.

From the Sira, or life of Mohammed:

Ibn Ishaq: 204 - “‘Men, do you know what you are pledging yourselves to in swearing allegiance to this man [Muhammad]?’

‘Yes. In swearing allegiance to him we are pledging to wage war against all mankind.’”


In Sahih Muslim, one of the canonical hadith collections, 
Book 4, Number 1062:

Abu Huraira reported that the Messenger of Allah [Muhammad] (may peace be upon him) said: I have been given superiority over the other prophets in six respects: {sic: note 'superiority over the other prophets' - among those 'other prophets' would be 'Moses', and 'Jesus', those who are honoured by Jews and by Christians - dda}.

'I have been given words which are concise but comprehensive in meaning; I have been helped by terror (in the hearts of enemies):

'spoils have been made lawful to me:

'the earth has been made for me clean and a place of worship; I have been sent to all mankind and the line of prophets is closed with me.'

'Sahih Bukhari, the most canonical hadith collection, 
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 220:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

'Allah's Apostle [Muhammad] said, "I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy),
and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand."
Abu Huraira added: Allah's Apostle has left the world and now you, people, are bringing out those treasures (i.e. the Prophet did not benefit by them).'