Christopher Hitchens discovers that the Ground Zero mosque imam is not as moderate as he is cracked up to be

Not too long ago Christopher Hitchens wrote that opposition to the Islamic supremacist mega-mosque at Ground Zero was just bigotry and racism -- the whole tired laundry list of Leftist cliches. But now he is deeply confused, for he has discovered that the Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf is not as "moderate" as the cappuccino bomb-throwers he hangs around with led him to believe. "A Test of Tolerance: The 'Ground Zero mosque' debate is about tolerance--and a whole lot more," by Christopher Hitchens at Slate, August 23 (thanks to Benedict):

Two weeks ago, I wrote that the arguments against the construction of the Cordoba Initiative center in lower Manhattan were so stupid and demagogic as to be beneath notice. [...]

From the beginning, though, I pointed out that Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf was no great bargain and that his Cordoba Initiative was full of euphemisms about Islamic jihad and Islamic theocracy. I mentioned his sinister belief that the United States was partially responsible for the assault on the World Trade Center and his refusal to take a position on the racist Hamas dictatorship in Gaza. The more one reads through his statements, the more alarming it gets. For example, here is Rauf's editorial on the upheaval that followed the brutal hijacking of the Iranian elections in 2009. Regarding President Obama, he advised that:

He should say his administration respects many of the guiding principles of the 1979 revolution--to establish a government that expresses the will of the people; a just government, based on the idea of Vilayet-i-faquih, that establishes the rule of law.

Coyly untranslated here (perhaps for "outreach" purposes), Vilayet-i-faquih is the special term promulgated by Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini to describe the idea that all of Iranian society is under the permanent stewardship (sometimes rendered as guardianship) of the mullahs. Under this dispensation, "the will of the people" is a meaningless expression, because "the people" are the wards and children of the clergy. It is the justification for a clerical supreme leader, whose rule is impervious to elections and who can pick and choose the candidates and, if it comes to that, the results. It is extremely controversial within Shiite Islam. (Grand Ayatollah Sistani in Iraq, for example, does not endorse it.) As for those numerous Iranians who are not Shiites, it reminds them yet again that they are not considered to be real citizens of the Islamic Republic.

I do not find myself reassured by the fact that Imam Rauf publicly endorses the most extreme and repressive version of Muslim theocracy. The letterhead of the statement, incidentally, describes him as the Cordoba Initiative's "Founder and Visionary." Why does that not delight me, either?

Emboldened by the crass nature of the opposition to the center, its defenders have started to talk as if it represented no problem at all and as if the question were solely one of religious tolerance. It would be nice if this were true. But tolerance is one of the first and most awkward questions raised by any examination of Islamism. We are wrong to talk as if the only subject was that of terrorism. As Western Europe has already found to its cost, local Muslim leaders have a habit, once they feel strong enough, of making demands of the most intolerant kind. Sometimes it will be calls for censorship of anything "offensive" to Islam. Sometimes it will be demands for sexual segregation in schools and swimming pools. The script is becoming a very familiar one. And those who make such demands are of course usually quite careful to avoid any association with violence. They merely hint that, if their demands are not taken seriously, there just might be a teeny smidgeon of violence from some other unnamed quarter ...

As for the gorgeous mosaic of religious pluralism, it's easy enough to find mosque Web sites and DVDs that peddle the most disgusting attacks on Jews, Hindus, Christians, unbelievers, and other Muslims--to say nothing of insane diatribes about women and homosexuals. This is why the fake term Islamophobia is so dangerous: It insinuates that any reservations about Islam must ipso facto be "phobic." A phobia is an irrational fear or dislike. Islamic preaching very often manifests precisely this feature, which is why suspicion of it is by no means irrational.

From my window, I can see the beautiful minaret of the Washington, D.C., mosque on Massachusetts Avenue. It is situated at the heart of the capital city's diplomatic quarter, and it is where President Bush went immediately after 9/11 to make his gesture toward the "religion of peace." A short while ago, the wife of a new ambassador told me that she had been taking her dog for a walk when a bearded man accosted her and brusquely warned her not to take the animal so close to the sacred precincts. Muslim cabdrivers in other American cities have already refused to take passengers with "unclean" canines....

And much, much more of that kind of intolerance is to come, courtesy the idea of "tolerance" that prevails among the addled multiculturalist elite.

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Thank you Christopher Hitchen—better late than never.

Actually, Hitchens has generally been very clear-eyed about the threat of Jihad. His was one of the saner voices I read right after 9/11.

It was through a round-about series of links at one of his articles that I first found Jihad Watch.

.....ummm. let's see. We can't call it the Ground Zero Mosque anymore....I know! Let's call it the MODERATE, MURDERING, MUSLIMS MOSQUE.....

There. I said it so you don't have to.........

I wish Mr. Hitchens well, and a recovery from his devestating illness.

He is correct, as any true examiner of Islam and its devout practitioners discovers.

It's good to see Hitchens is finally waking up. The offensive attitude and behavior of Islamic supremacists shouldn't be given a free pass. To do so is to submit to dhimmitude.

No can do...

A great article from Mr. Hitchens. Unfortunately the the slate.com crowd isn't buying any of it, as the comments section over there clearly indicates. But at least Mr. Hitchens is moving forward, even if the slate audience is not.

A few comments on Hitchen's writings:

"Things have only gone further south since then, with Newt Gingrich's comparison to a Nazi sign outside the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum or (take your pick from the grab bag of hysteria) a Japanese cultural center at Pearl Harbor. The first of those pseudo-analogies is wrong in every possible way, in that the Holocaust museum already contains one of the most coolly comprehensive guides to the theory and practice of the Nazi regime in existence, including special exhibits on race theory and party ideology and objective studies of the conditions that brought the party to power."

Obviously Gingrich is postulating a pro-Nazi sign that opposes the Museum. This is shocking coming from someone who almost got killed in Beirut for defacing a neo-Nazi sign.

"As for the second, there has long been a significant Japanese-American population in Hawaii, and I can't see any reason why it should not place a cultural center anywhere on the islands that it chooses. "

Sure, this is true today, but how about during WW2, and how about the project being led by a pro-Emperor-worship Shinto priest? Japanese-Americans remained largely loyal to the U.S., but would they have remained so with such multiculturalism? That would be the real question.

Christopher Hitchens has been mostly right on jihad issues. One can only hope for his recovery in his illness, for we badly need him. But he has called the anti-Ground Zero mosque movement "crass" even as he adopts it's arguments.

Inconsistent, no?

Hitchens has been an inconsistent and unreliable ally in this war, but if his 'revelation' changes some minds on this, good. He has referred to jihad as "Binlanenism", suggesting that Islamic violence is limited to Bin laden and his gang, which lets Islam off the hook, surprising coming from someone who has no problem skewering all religions by name. He even endorsed Obama at the last minute. He can be both excellent and pathetic, clearly showing he's a man of mixed premises.

"This is why the fake term Islamophobia is so dangerous: It insinuates that any reservations about Islam must ipso facto be "phobic." A phobia is an irrational fear or dislike. Islamic preaching very often manifests precisely this feature, which is why suspicion of it is by no means irrational."

Right on.

It's true I haven't been to Washington DC since the mid-'90's.

There's a minaret?

Good God.

Take down the minaret. It has no business being in America.

“The mosques are our barracks, the domes are our helmets, the minarets are our swords, and the faithful are our army." - Turkish Prime Minister Erdogan in 1998.

Take down the "sword" minaret.

Could Christopher Hitchens finally have "gotten religion"?

I agree with Graven Image, though. I remember reading a Hitchens article in Vanity Fair about eight summers ago about a French girl who lived in the Muslim projects an hour outside of Paris. She'd gone to school outside the projects and had a job in the city but her family was still living in Medieval times. The family decided to send her back home "on vacation" and she didn't want to go. The day before she was supposed to leave she broke down to her boss, he was taken aback and he agreed to hide her. The first week she was gone her family sent her text messages saying they loved her and only wanted the best for her and would she please come home. The second week these same loving family members sent her death threats.

I remember wondering, why would they do that? Eight years and thousands of stories about dead Muslim girls at the hands of their loving families I understand.

Hitchens coming to his senses! Can this be said of others? Perhaps the truth will actually find its way into the mush-headed brains of those who are at least open to learning as well as those who have at long last a growing, well-justified skepticism of Islam.

We should see all of this as VERY, VERY GOOD. The GZ mosque situation, the soldier who won't deploy because Allah told him not to oppose those who aim to do away with the infidel kuffirs (apparently and oddly Allah was silent during his recruitment and signing-on days), the recent hijib - Disneyland dust-up, plus oodles and oodles of other cases where Muslims demonstrate time and time again that they will NOT integrate and will NOT accept American values in the manner done by all other earlier immigrants to our shores, provide us all with ample evidence of the separating of the wheat (true Americans, limited gov't, personal responsibility, respect to all others, equal treatment, et alia) from the chaff (viz, Muslims, their pro-victimizing enablers, the left generally). Muslims will NOT integrate purposefully so that they can create the parallel society and institutions in preparation for "taking us over."

Of course Muslims do not belong in our military particularly, nor in the larger American society. They are incapable of meaningfully, from the heart, taking of the 5 USC sec 3331 oath to the Constitution. That this fact is so obvious to the rest of us brings into stark relief the dreams and wistful / wishful thinking of Colin Powell and General "diversity-in-the-military-is-more-important-than-ordnance" Casey.

Islam cannot be eliminated from the face of the Earth, but we Americans do not have to stand for its being invited into our midst. Democrats are poison to true Americans. Do NOT ever, ever vote Democratic.

Hitchens is one of the smartest guys out there. Like Hugh, even on his worst days he runs rings around the competition on their best days. And on his (and Hugh's) best days, pulling up to read a Hitchins piece is like sitting down to a feast. As has been mentioned above, we need his voice. I wonder how he tolerates being associated with Slate.

Hitchens is still confused, and he saves his most vitriolic attacks for the politicians who more than any others are prepared to fight the spread of political Islam.

We're all bigots now.


[in the nicest sarcastic sense]

"Emboldened by the crass nature of the opposition to the center."

How nice if him to describe those trying to prevent his head from being removed from his shoulders in such a manor.

Mr. Hitchimup could have easily come to his current conclusions had he paid better attention to Mr. Spenser and company a long time ago.

The prior article would never been written as it was if one had just paid better attention in class.

It is not like he is a poor read or lacks meaningful things to say. It's more the level of confusion his readers may suffer as a result of his current revelations.

Hitchens is a rather lightweight 'public intellectual' who climbed on Prof. Dawkin's bandwagon,his main skill is mastery of the English language, not analysis.

Hitchens has to be the most intelligent of the brain-washed left... the only time you can tell is when he comments about patriotic or military subjects, and until recently Islamophobics...
http://hereticscrusade.com

I agree with Bosch and Mac...Hitchens' world view is filled with so many inconsistencies it can hardly be considered coherent, much less integrated. It's true, he's established some anti-Jihad bonafides, but for God's sake, the man is an admirer of Edward Said.

I sympathize with him as he deals with his illness...and I'm sure that he'd be interesting company over a beer, but in the greater scheme of things, Chris Hitchens' contribution to literature and sociology is destined to be nil.

Hitchens is a rather lightweight 'public intellectual'...

I was never impressed by him and a few times rather turned off by the cheapness of his attacks on conservatives. His latest book "God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything" is a most vulgar kind of atheist ranting. There are of course atheist thinkers worth reading and stimulating, but he is dfinitely not one of them.

Still, if he, for whatever reason, is against the mosk he can't be all bad. Let's hope he doesn't change or attenuate his position tomorrow.

Hitchens is inconsistent because he has never repented of his affinity for leftist anti-democratic mass murderers like Che Guevara. Ultimately he needs to realize, as David Horowitz and others have, that domestic political opponents are often one's best friends in the face of external threats.

"The more one reads through his (Rauf) statements, the more alarming it gets." ...

Good, he seems to be getting it ...

But then he states this:

"From my window, I can see the beautiful minaret of the Washington, D.C., mosque on Massachusetts Avenue."

He refers to it as a "BEAUTIFUL minaret" ...now isn't that an oxymoron. Um -- no, overall he doesn't get it, does he?

Very soon he'll probably retract this statement after gobbling up the rubbish about Rauf ...

Niagra Falls...
Slowly we turn...
Step by step...
Inch by inch...

Thank you Robert, Marisol, Hugh, et al. for your tireless efforts & tenaciousness. Especially to most of the posters I have been reading here for years now; insightful, respectful & always passionate in their beliefs. I have learned so much, 'with miles to go before I sleep'...

Mr. Hitchens, I enjoyed your well thought message!

I dig Hitchens.
I don't beleive there's such a thing as "islamaohobia", it's a bullshit term! a more appropriate term would be "being randomly murdered by a jihadi-phobia". now that is a legit fear.
cheers

I dig Hitchens.
I don't believe there's such a thing as "islamaphobia", it's a bullshit term! a more appropriate term would be "being randomly murdered by a jihadi-phobia". now that is a legit fear.
{sorry for the typos)cheers

This article Christopher Hitchens reinforces how dangerously stupid the Leftist PC slaves are.

1) His first instinct is to call his opponents bigots and racists. That's his starting position - all evidence aside.

2) Then, the case for or against the GZM seems to hinge on the character of a single person Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf. For other leftist morons journalists the fact that there is a swimming pool planned in the building makes all the difference.

3) A singular experience of a woman with a dog is relevant to him. Christopher, click on JW and read 100,001 much worst experiences - wake up. It seems that dog droppings are the guide posts for freedom now - once they are gone we are all in trouble.

The trouble with Islam is that it is fundamentally counter to the values of freedom and respect for the individual. It does not hold equality under the law for believers and non believers. Indeed Islamic texts provide the recipe to subjugate or, if subjugation proves unsuccessful, terminate non-believers.

Focusing on singular experiences and singular reputations to shape ones opinion is a sign of shallowness on the issue.

IN CORE ISLAMIC TEXTS, MUHAMMAD SAYS THE EARTH BELONGS TO MUHAMMAD AND ALLAH, AND WARNS THE JEWS TO ACCEPT ISLAM IF THEY WISH TO BE SAFE:

In Sahih Muslim, a canonical hadith collection:

Book 019, Number 4363:
It has been narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira who said: We were (sitting) in the mosque when the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) came to us and said: (Let us) go to the Jews. We went out with him until we came to them. The Messenger of Allah [Muhammad] (may peace be upon him) stood up and called out to them (saying):
O ye assembly of Jews, accept Islam (and) you will be safe.
They said: Abu'l-Qasim, you have communicated (God's Message to us). The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said:
I want this (i. e. you should admit that God's Message has been communicated to you), accept Islam and you would be safe.
They said: Abu'l-Qisim, you have communicated (Allah's Message). The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: I want this... - He said to them (the same words) the third time (and on getting the same reply) he [Muhammad] added:
You should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle, and I wish that I should expel you from this land. Those of you who have any property with them should sell it, otherwise they should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle (and they may have to go away leaving everything behind).
See: http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/muslim/019.smt.html#019.4363

IN CORE ISLAMIC TEXTS, MUHAMMAD SAID YOUR BLOOD AND PROPERTY WILL BE SAFE FROM MUSLIMS, IF YOU WORSHIP AS A MUSLIM

In Sahih Bukhari, the most canonical hadith collection, Muhammad said,

Volume 1, Book 8, Number 387: "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.' And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally and their reckoning will be with Allah..."

In other words, Muhammad says that if you are non-Muslim, your right to life will not be sacred to Muslims, nor your right to property, and Muslims will interfere with you other than legally.

QUR'AN SAYS FIGHT AND BE HARSH:
Qur'an Chapter 9, Verse 123:

O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him).

From page 515 (764 of the Arabic) of THE EARLIEST MUSLIM BIOGRAPHY OF MUHAMMAD, here is HOW MUHAMMAD ORDERED THE TORTURE AND BEHEADING OF A MAN IN ORDER TO GET THE MAN'S TREASURE:

"Kinana b. al-Rabi', who had the custody of the treasure of the B. al-Nadir, was brought to the apostle who asked him about it. He denied that he knew where it was. A Jew came (Tabari says "was brought") to the apostle and said that he had seen Kinana going round a certain ruin every morning early. When the apostle [Muhammad] said to Kinana, 'Do you know that if we find you have it I shall kill you?' he said Yes. The apostle gave orders that the ruin was to be excavated and some of the treasure was found. When he asked him about the rest he refused to produce it, so the apostle [Muhammad] gave orders to al-Zubayr b. al-'Awwam, 'Torture him until you extract what he has,' so he kindled a fire with flint and steel on his chest until he was nearly dead. Then the apostle delivered him to Muhammad b. Maslama and he struck off his head in revenge for his brother Mahmud."

From page 369 (554 in the Arabic) of THE EARLIEST MUSLIM BIOGRAPHY OF MUHAMMAD, MUHAMMAD SAYS "KILL ANY JEW WHO FALLS INTO YOUR POWER":

It's a "beautiful" story of two brothers, Muhayyissa and Huwayyisa:

"The apostle [Muhammad] said, ‘Kill any Jew that falls into your power.’ Thereupon Muhayyisa bin Masud leapt upon Ibn Sunayna, a Jewish merchant with whom they had social and business relations, and killed him. Huwayisa was not a Muslim at the time though he was the elder brother. When Muhayyisa killed [the Jewish merchant] Huwayyisa began to beat [his brother Muhayyisa], saying, 'You enemy of God, did you kill him when much of the fat on your belly comes from his wealth?' Muhayyisa answered, 'Had the one who ordered me to kill him ordered me to kill you I would have cut your head off.'...[Huwayyisa] replied, 'By God, if Muhammad had ordered you to kill me would you have killed me?' [Muhayissa] said, 'Yes, by God, had he ordered me to cut off your head I would have done so.' [Huwayyisa] exclaimed, "By God, a religion which can bring you to this is marvellous!' and [Huwayyisa] became a Muslim."

Whenever I see Hitchens speaking I feel that there stands a man who cares in a, dare to say, psychopathological degree to be percepted as a superbly clever one. He is full of readiness for ironical attacks against his opponents. A constant, unceasing self stirring for being able to pour out heavily poisonous manners to whomever disagrees with him. As to his atheism, it is clearly hysterical... suggesting by its appearance a deeply anxious effort to revenge (something that begets in mind an unavoidable 'why?', 'why so much enmity against a worldview having belief to God?').

It is difficult to rely on such a person but... anyway, we have in mankind's history many astonishing worldview change cases... We can hope (or, better, wish) such a thing for Hitchens too.

Has Hitchens been the first one to point out Rauf's endorsement of Vilayet-i-faquih? That's a juicy piece of evidence that Rauf is not only no "moderate" but is a totalitarian monster bent on recasting the West in the shape of the mullah-ridden nightmare that is modern Iran. Fat chance of hearing that one from the MSM. It is obviously causing them agonizing pain to report anything negative about their latest "tolerance" poster boy, and are they falling all over each other to agree with him about the "blood on our hands". Ignoring what's on their own, of course.

Too bad that ambassador's wife didn't think fast enough to encourage her dog to lift a leg on that muslim thug so he could spend the rest of the day in obsessive ritual cleansing and stay out of everybody else's hair.

Anyway, glad to hear Hitch coming around, though I would be tempted to go upside his head for the "crass" comment if he weren't so ill. (He owes Robert and Pam an apology. Don't hold your breath.) Not that he isn't getting plenty of abuse-the-atheist action especially now he's got cancer. (Dendrite: All we atheists are hysterical haters desperate for attention, didn't you know that? Why else would we have the unmitigated gall to state our sinful, unwelcome opinions out loud as if we had the same right to them as good, godfearing people?)

Dendrite, I fully agree about Hitchins and his excessive and compulsive attempts at cleverness. It's a common sin among hyper-intellectuals and their would-be emulators. Still, I can't help but love the guy, who even in his seeming perpetually semi-besotted state manages to charm and captivate with his words. Granted, the content isn't always as captivating, but for sheer word play, he's among the best in my book.

Spirit Wolf

great to see you posting!

Ever read about the Great Siege of Malta?

Jean de Valette and the Knights Hospitallers of St John fought like lions at bay.

THE KNIGHTS OF ST JOHN OF MALTA
History's bloodiest siege used human heads as cannonballs
By JAMES JACKSON.

In the Daily Mail, UK, 1:40am on 7th July 2007
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=466818&in_page_id=1770

"A hot and fetid June night on the small Mediterranean island of Malta, and a Christian sentry patrolling at the foot of a fort on the Grand Harbour had spotted something drifting in the water.

"The alarm was raised. More of these strange objects drifted into view, and men waded into the shallows to drag them to the shore.

"What they found horrified even these battle-weary veterans: wooden crosses pushed out by the enemy to float in the harbour, and crucified on each was the headless body of a Christian knight.

"This was psychological warfare at its most brutal, a message sent by the Turkish Muslim commander whose invading army had just vanquished the small outpost of Fort St Elmo - a thousand yards distant across the water.

"Now the target was the one remaining fort on the harbour front where the beleaguered, outnumbered and overwhelmed Christians were still holding out: the Fort St Angelo. The Turkish commander wished its defenders to know that they would be next, that a horrible death was the only outcome of continued resistance.\

"But the commander had not counted on the mettle of his enemy - the Knights of St John. Nor on the determination of their leader Grand Master Jean Parisot de la Valette, who vowed that the fort would not be taken while one last Christian lived in Malta.

"On news of the grotesque discovery of the headless knights - many of them his personal friends - Grand Master Valette quickly ordered that captured Turks imprisoned deep in the vaulted dungeons of the fort be taken from their cells, and beheaded one by one.

"Then he returned a communiquè of his own: the heads of his Turkish [i.e. Turkish Muslim - dda] captives were fired from his most powerful cannon direct into the Muslim lines.

"There would be no negotiation, no compromise, no surrender, no retreat.

We Christians, the Grand Master was saying, will fight to the death and take you with us."

...

They held off the siege and held Malta, the gate of the western Mediterranean; the Ottoman fleet, much reduced, limped back whence it had came.

And so, because of men like the Knights of St John, who were prepared to fight as they did in fact fight (and because of others before and after who also fought like hell - I think particularly of the great Rescue of Vienna in 1683 by John Sobieski and his Winged Hussars) your ancestors and mine who lived in north-western Europe in the High Renaissance were not dragged down into the seven hells of dhimmitude. Life was tough but at least *our* European female ancestors, whatever other problems they endured, didn't have to scuttle round in black garbage bags and share their husbands with a bunch of co-wives.

Well he's not as good as he thinks he is, that's for sure!

He's obviously on the right side in the defensive war against Shariah, but he has a tactical disagreement with most of us about whether a battle should be fought over the Ground Zero Mosque.

It seems to me v. plain that this is a vital line of defence that has maintained. What a coup for the pro-Shariah lobby would be a Mosque so close to the main impact where Americans could be lectured about their faults and the glories of Shariah (which is exactly what the 9-11 terrorists wanted to see installed in America) are extolled from the pulpit in the Mosque. Rauf understands that. Why don't people like Hitchens?

Robert and Pamela have shown there are plenty of good reasons why it should be opposed and there are very rational grounds for opposition that will not mean the end of freedom of religion. The fact that the building was hit in the attack is for me perhaps the most important factor in addition to its proximity. I find it difficult to believe that didn't also influence the choice for the pro-Shariah Cordoba Initiative.


I remember watching a clip of Hitchens ripping Ibrahim Hooper a new one. It was probably about 4 years ago, though. It is a shame to see Hitchens switch sides at least twice now. He may be better than most leftists, but never forget that he is a leftist, and in the end, not a reliable ally.

I am sorry to hear about Hitchens being ill. I pray for strength and wisdom to receive Grace of spiritual healing before he has to be surprised by meeting The God of Love.

Just as we ended slavery in most parts of the world, it is time we start delivering our muslim neighbors and their children with proper education on God's Love, before they continue with a dark path that bring much more destruction on our next generation. Here is a glimpse of what happens to indoctrinate 2 year old muslim boys & girls if we don't start young: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGFjkfKoECc

Most intelligent atheists I know preferred the philosophical propositions and fantastic debates of Anthony Flew over Hitchens' rantings, but since most atheists are troubled by Anthony Flew leaving their camp in his old age and his latest admittance to the logical and scientific support for belief in God, hitchens does hold a stronghold for the far far radical left. Sadly Hitchens reveals what The Bible talks about, tossed to & fro like the waves of the sea, with contradictions from day to day :-(. I hope he is able to come to grips with reality of God's Love soon.

As one who was raised in islam, this is one day when Hitchens agrees with our viewpoint on the dangers of islam. Hope Hitchens will bring along more of those who are wrongly supporting a center for terrorism and violent antiwomen ideology that would enslave the adherents of islam for generations to come.

Excellent compact intro to Islam: "Three Things About Islam"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ib9rofXQl6w

You shame me, my brother or sister. I have often forgotten our Lord's admonitions to pray even for our enemies.

Hitch tapdances too much to impress himself with his pseudo-dazzling literary footwork, but without a simple, basic grounding in the root dogmas and dismal desires of regular, good old Islam it is all a soporific softshoe.

Resisting this imperialistic intolerant ideology is never "stupid or demagogic", since saying "NO!" to a theocratic tyranny is always sensible, no matter how clumsily uttered or expressed.

Hitch is not great, either.

I'm with Mac, Cornelius, Profitsbeard, and certain others. While I'm glad that Christopher Hitchens has long spoken against the jihadist threat, I respect his brother Peter much more. Hitchens has wanted the West thoroughly stripped of the defenses Christianity has given it, and fails to see that one reason why we have a Jihadi threat in the heart of the West is because his fellow Leftists feel such insane hatred for their Christian heritage and present-day neighbors that they'd rather hear the tedium of the Qu'ran than the matchless English prose of the King James Bible.

Then again, Hitchens probably had to write at least one article accusing the anti-GZM people of bigotry to please his employers and masters.

It also bothers me no end that people like Hitchens will never, never, ever acknowledge that the people he once dismissed as stupid, bigoted, and demagogic were actually more clear-headed than themselves. Why, I doubt he'd even admit that maybe, a Syrian-descended, Arabic-reading American like Robert would have anything to say about Islam and the West, unless it's first vetted through an apporved Left-wing MultiCultie authority.

"tolerance" "outreach" who else wants to barf if they hear those words one more time ...

I read Hitchens book 'Why Orwell Matters'. I was struck by the lack of fluidity in his writing style. Yes, he's articulate...but his sentences don't run together smoothly at all. His paragraphs more resemble a series of separate statements than an integrated whole. Behind the dazzling wordplay, there's an almost amateurish quality to his work.

Furthermore, his ideas and opinions often contradict each other, even in close proximity. I found him unreadable.

My two cents.

Hitchens is correct in way.

The GZM protests are "crass" in that they do not match the sophistication of Islam's multi-faceted jihad.

While we definitely need protest and GZM type issues to focus the attention of the North American public on the Islamic threat, sooner rather than later we are going to need sufficient laws and jurisprudence to protect our way of life from the politics of Islam.

Hitchens is absolutely spot on regarding the sophistication of Islamic politics. Now how do we frame the laws we need to protect ourselves from its demented tentacles, without infringing further on the freedoms that we cherish?

Thank you, DA, I loved that account. The Maltese used to have displays of their history and culture back home; I learned this stuff talking to them way back then - they were very unabashed about their proud history. The entire island won a Victoria Cross in WWII, as well - a very unique achievement!

As for women in Europe, I don't think their plight was QUITE as bad as some make out, even. At least they could take up work in medieval cottage industries, and later on, in Industrial Revolution factories. Sure, we were paid less, but it's still an improvement over a woman's/widow's plight in Islamland.

I think a lot of people take 1950s sitcoms too much to heart (no wife of mine will work!) However, I think those are ONLY the product of a very successful post-War economy - wages and benefits were good enough where a guy COULD support a family by his own labour, and a man who did have a good enough income would take pride in being able to do this ... otherwise, I think women were always somewhere in the workforce, always, even if only in "certain" roles (teaching, nursing, secretarial, etc. As for secretarial, I have seen, with my own eyes, a MALE be discriminated against for such work! I have also had male nurses in training sheepishly ask if I minded them being my nurse! How silly!)

But yes, I know what to be thankful for next month, when Thanksgiving rolls around.

raven got to the heart of the matter:

This article Christopher Hitchens reinforces how dangerously stupid the Leftist PC slaves are.

1) His first instinct is to call his opponents bigots and racists. That's his starting position - all evidence aside.

2) Then, the case for or against the GZM seems to hinge on the character of a single person Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf.

#1 and #2 are related: Hitchens thinks it's bigoted to be generally anti-Islam (1); so he requires specific smoking-gun evidence (2) to nudge him to be on board this specific issue, because he's only really concerned with the Tiny Minority of Extremists Who Are Twisting Islam.

Hitchens may be showing incipient signs of inching along progressively at a snail's pace from "Tiny Minority" to "Small Minority" -- but I'm afraid that's about all we can hope for.

And to all the Jihad Watchers praising Hitchens for this: please, don't go scrambling under the Mainstream Table for crubs: it's undignified.

"If a Westerner is beheaded by Muslims, then the country whose citizen it was should scoop up 100 Muslims living within its borders, and send their heads back to the offending country or group.

If a Muslim even damages a building in the West, or owned by Western interests, one of their cities gets firebombed so that it is obliviated, completely. Ensure no survivors."

"I think Spirit Wolf is on the right track; and I must say I am a bit surprised his or her comment was not deleted."

This is insane. Do you even realize what you're saying? I pray for your soul.

Hitchins, for a liberal, Cornelius, is far better than most on the Left, but he still displays disconnects, such as you noted. As another example, as an atheist he can't bring himself to the conclusion that Islamic doctrine is far more of a threat to freedom than is Christian doctrine. He does see many of the menaces of Islam but then mostly negates this by castigating Christianity (and other religions) essentially as much as Mo's creed. This is just dumb.

You know, it's not that the conservative brain can view everything with clarity but rather that the liberal mind regularly reveals gaps that its antithesis rarely manifests. Liberals don't get this and that's part of the reason why they remain liberal. And for all who decry pitting liberal against conservative in the fight against Islamic supremacism, how the hell can you not I would ask considering the evidence?

To the extent that you pray and that prayer is efficacious, you should first and foremost pray that your fellow Muslims in great numbers desist from killing non-Muslims or fellow Muslims for not believing as they do. After all, what other major religion but Islam produces scores of adherents who kill in the name of their religion on virtually a daily basis? Look to clean up the enormous atrocities committed in the name of your faith before denouncing others for mere words, words which would not be uttered in the first place but for rampant Islamic barbarism.

WELLINGTON: "for all who decry pitting liberal against conservative in the fight against Islamic supremacism, how the hell can you not I would ask considering the evidence?"

With you all the way, amigo. Wittingly or not, liberals are a 5th column, carrying water for the Jihad. Pretending they are part of the solution instead of part of the problem is tantamount to putting one's hopes in the sudden appearance of a "moderate" Islam.

Quoting the article: "A short while ago, the wife of a new ambassador told me that she had been taking her dog for a walk when a bearded man accosted her and brusquely warned her not to take the animal so close to the sacred precincts. Muslim cabdrivers in other American cities have already refused to take passengers with "unclean" canines...."

I just got a new Belgian Malinois to replace my grand old one that died suddenly. He's young....a 4-legged, F5 tornado with teeth and an attitude. An industrial chainsaw with fur. He is sitting on the couch with me, casually destroying a piece of reinforced fire hose. He'll turn out fine, but needs a name soon so we can start his training.

I'm thinking about calling him mohammed or allah. Of course, I could also name him after Robert Spencer or Geert Wilders. The difference would be that Robert & Geert would not start rioting in the streets over it, calling for my death (or the dog's death), or murdering other people like muslims do.

I think eventually I might take him with me on a vacation.....to Washington DC, maybe?

Christopher Hitchens is a controversial figure. He used to call himself a socialist. I don't know whether he would still characterize himself in this way.

So now one of the most famous liberal leftist journalists is opposing Imam Rauf. We should pray for him because he can be a very powerful ally! I wish him all the best.

Yusef YK,

You wrote: "This is insane. Do you even realize what you're saying? I pray for your soul."

I agree with you on this--at least, I agree that those comments are insane.

Re the comments and endorsements which you quoted, there may be some genuinely disturbed individuals posting on the site. I also suspect some people may be posting outlandish nonsense to see how far they can push things on the site, or to see if someone will report the comments to JW staff. I'm not sure which this is, but whatever way you look at it those comments are completely unacceptable.

I will be reporting those comments to JW staff immediately. I encourage others to do the same when they see such comments.

I think highly of Hitchens, but he does mistake some not-so-moderate aspects of Islam (and Islamic figures) as moderate. For example, he informs us that

"Coyly untranslated here (perhaps for "outreach" purposes), Vilayet-i-faquih is the special term promulgated by Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini to describe the idea that all of Iranian society is under the permanent stewardship (sometimes rendered as guardianship) of the mullahs. Under this dispensation, "the will of the people" is a meaningless expression, because "the people" are the wards and children of the clergy. It is the justification for a clerical supreme leader, whose rule is impervious to elections and who can pick and choose the candidates and, if it comes to that, the results. It is extremely controversial within Shiite Islam."

But then he adds

"Grand Ayatollah Sistani in Iraq, for example, does not endorse it."

This latter comment feeds into a popular myth that Sistani (or Seestani; Sayyid Ali al-Husayni al-Sistani) is somehow moderate and supports "democracy." However, you can't have democracy without freedom of expression. Here's what Sistani says, or rules, in relation to the freedom of expression:

"CONTEMPORARY
LEGAL RULINGS IN
SHI'I LAW
in accordance with the rulings (fatawa) of
Ayatullah al-'Uzma al-Sayyid 'Ali
al-Husayni al-Seestani

Excerpt from the Preface, by Hamid Mavani (Montreal October 1996 / Jumada-l-Akhirah 1417):

“This work contains the translation of a selection of new legal rulings that are based on the opinion of the eminent jurist Ayatullah al-'Uzma al-Sayyid 'Ali al-Husayni al-Seestani, who resides in Najaf, Iraq, and is the point of reference, or marja', for a good part of the Shi'ah Ithna 'Ashari community of believers, who revert to him for guidance. Three of his works, Al-Fatawa al-Muyassarah (FM), al-Mustahdathat min al-Masa'il al-Shar'iyyah (MMS) and Minhaj al-Salihin, vol. 1 (MS) were used in compiling the list of questions/answers and organizing them under appropriate subjects. The source is clearly marked in regular brackets after the response to each question to facilitate easy reference to the original Arabic text.”

[Note: Below, Q = Question, A = Seestani’s answer ruling].

8. Slandering Allah (s.w.t.), Prophet (S) or Imams (a.s.)

Q194: During verbal disputes, some people unfortunately employ words in a non-serious manner that imply disbelief in Allah (s.w.t.) or articulate that which is inappropriate for the infallible ones (a.s.). Is it obligatory to impose a penalty (hadd) on them for that?

A: As long as they are not serious and do not mean what they are saying, there is no shar'i penalty on them but they are deserving of ta'zir. (FM, p. 419)

Q195: If they are serious and intend to slander Allah (s.w.t.), the Prophet (S), the Imams (a.s.), religion or school of law (madhhab) and persist in this.

A: The ruling upon them is death. (FM, p. 419)"

[Source: al-islam.org/laws/contemporary/ ]


And Hitchens also wrote:

"Some of these flags are of countries like Malaysia, where Islam barely has a majority, or of Turkey, which still has a secular constitution."

Is 60.4% Muslim (Malaysia, CIA Factbook) "barely" a majority? 51% is a majority, though barely. 60% is clearly a majority.(The next largest block is Buddhist, with 19.2%). The myth of moderate Malaysia has been debunked many times at this site. Malaysia has major problems with sharia resurgence.

Turkey is often called "secular," but the country is over 99% Muslim (CIA Factbook), is a member of the OIC which demands that international blasphemy law be imposed on non-Muslim states, is a signatory to the Cairo Declaration which affirms the supremacy of sharia over all other frames of reference and implies that Muslims are superior to others, and Turkey's "secular" constitution has laws against reviling religion (e.g., Article 216) which in this case is almost always going to be Islam since the country is almost entirely Muslim and Muslims are more likely than others to prosecute people for insults to their religion). No one can openly criticize Islam in Turkey with impunity; critics would likely be prosecuted by the authorities or attacked or threatened by vigilantes.

Robert wrote:

"Not too long ago Christopher Hitchens wrote that opposition to the Islamic supremacist mega-mosque at Ground Zero was just bigotry and racism -- the whole tired laundry list of Leftist cliches. But now he is deeply confused, for he has discovered that the Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf is not as "moderate" as the cappuccino bomb-throwers he hangs around with led him to believe."

I think this is a bit too hard on Hitchens, if this is in reference to Hitchens' Aug 9, 2010 Slate article "Mau-Mauing the Mosque..." Hitchens was disagreeing with some of the forms of opposition to this "Cordoba" project. He wasn't objecting to opposition per se. About that project and Rauf, he wrote

"I don't like anything much about the Cordoba Initiative or the people who run it. The supposed imam of the place, Feisal Abdul Rauf, is on record as saying various shady and creepy things about the original atrocity. Shortly after 9/11, he told 60 Minutes, "I wouldn't say that the United States deserved what happened, but the United States policies were an accessory to the crime that happened." He added, "In the most direct sense, Osama Bin Laden is made in the USA." More recently, he has declined to identify the racist and totalitarian Hamas party as being guilty of the much less severe designation of terrorist. We are all familiar by now with the peddlers of such distortions and euphemisms and evasions, many of them repeated by half-baked secular and Christian spokesmen. A widespread cultural cringe impels many people to the half-belief that it's better to accommodate "moderates" like Rauf as a means of diluting the challenge of the real thing. So for the sake of peace and quiet, why not have Comedy Central censor itself or the entire U.S. press refuse to show the Danish cartoons?"

To which Hitchens immediately added

"This kind of capitulation needs to be fought consistently."

Hitchens concluded the article with this {my brackets}

"But the way to respond to such overtures {as this mosque project} is by critical scrutiny and engagement, not cheap appeals to parochialism, victimology, and unreason."

Hitchens, again though, can be found suspending his critical faculties toward other supposedly "moderate" aspects of Islam, i.e., the myth of the wonderful and moderate Islamic Andalusia and Cordoba.

"But in the interval between these two imperialisms it {Cordoba} was also the site of an astonishing cultural synthesis, best associated with the names of Averroes ibn-Rushd and Moses Maimonides. (The finest recent book on the subject is María Rosa Menocal's The Ornament of the World.)

Averroes of course supported jihad warfare to impose Islamic rule and supported the death penalty for apostasy. Regarding "The Ornament of the World," see Hugh's various comments on that apologetic work.

Yusef, you make some good points in your post, and I will acknowledge that in the past, you distanced yourself from the Qaida types.

Much of the non-Western world reacted fiercely against 19th century Western arrogance--and understandably. Perhaps some of the more radical suggestions which so shock you are a reaction against what appears to us as Muslim arrogance and aggression against non-Muslim social space. This is something to which a lot of Westerners have become painfully sensitive since 9/11/01.

Take your stinking hypocrisy to your mosk!

You know very well Spirit Wolf simply couldn’t hold back an angry fantasy triggered by reality.
I am talking about reality of non-muslim slaughtered, beaten, robbed, raped and humiliated in every possible way by muzlims every day. Where is your indignation vis a vis that horrific actuality?
I have never seen you condemning these real monstrosities with a fraction of the indignation you are now meeting a fantasy that can never materialize.
On the other hand the countless thousands mohammedans actually responding to calls for murder from hate besotted imams are real, yet we hear nothing from you except blaming us for it and giggling at our pain.

You soulless mohammedan creep are “praying for Spirit Wolf’s soul? Hadn’t you presented your soul to your allah-devil I could possibly ask Spirit Wolf to pray for it.
Disgusting mohammedan hypocrite!

Hitchens always disappoints. To say that he is inconsistent is being kind – he is someone who likes the sound that comes out of his own gob, irrespective of the sheer drivel that pours out of it. Do not put up your stall with him, in the end and despite his rampant atheism, he'll come down on the side of islam, if for nothing else, than at least for the British fondness for Arabism and masochism.

He is irrelevant.

'he is someone who likes the sound that comes out of his own gob, irrespective of the sheer drivel that pours out of it'

Unfortunately, it seems that Hermit puts it the right way... Hitchens look like a heavily pathological case of narcissism. He may go with Islam even if only for revenging Christianity. Because the New Testament spirit is revealing -even by its very existence in this world- his monstrous ego possessednes and the ugliness resulting from such a possession.

When looking at a video showing him speaking, leave following the content of what he says for a little while and behold his manner, his way of expressing the things he says... Surely you will be amazed by the size of the emotional trouble he undergoes by his ego assertion and aggressiveness.

I do wish, however, his being healed...

He is irrelevant.

As much a I agree wih you (and Dendride) about the personality of C. Hitchens I wouldn't say he is irrelevant.

There are many who, being paralyzed by the PC, can not decide where to stand on the West/Islam conflict and who having great respect for Hitchens wait for his endorsement.
I don't doubt that they would take Hitchens ""conversion" as a clear sign that resisting islamification of the West is morally right position - even for a leftist.

Kinana,

"I will be reporting those comments to JW staff immediately. I encourage others to do the same when they see such comments. "

Make sure you also report dumbledoresarmy's elegant quotation, in response to the initial commenter, of what Christians did at the outpost of Malta to defend the West from one of the thousands (if not millions) of millennial terror attacks by Muslims. As I pointed out at the time, what those great Christians did in defense of the West was even arguably "worse" (if such gruesome tactics admit of degrees) than what the initial commenter was advocating -- but still pales in comparison with the grotesquely ghoulish atrocities Muslims do, and have been doing for 1400 years.

I would hope that, because of his "inconsistencies" Mr. Hitchens might be more persuasive to the leftists.

Do you pray for the soul of the beheaded Westerner? Do you pray for the souls of the devout Muslims who beheaded the Westerner in the first place?

I don't second that sentiment, but I wouldn't mind a really timely round up of expired visas from Islamic countries and student visas and workers at chicken plants.

I have always been told by certain people "in the know" about Bangladeshi Muslims that the way to meet their cruelties, overbearing dominations, threats, and so on, is to ROAR BACK IN THEIR FACES IMMEDIATELY AND WITHOUT RESTRAINT - and then do them one worse. For that is the only response they will pay attention to and respect. Without powerful counterattack these feral humans grind their prey into dust and blood.

We should read from the playbook of the Israelis: As they know from bitter, bitter experience, concession, conciliation, reasoning, and compromise with Muslims only emboldens the latter and convinces them to move forward aggressively, secure that your modulated overtures have revealed your weakness and lack of resolve.

I do I do!! -- mrff-acchh-fffuuhhhh -- (There I go again)

I often rail, in these commentary boxes, about pseudo intellectuals preaching from on high with absolutely no regard for relevant facts or conventional wisdom but I've been a fan of Hitchens for some time, admire his abrasive wit and, most of all, his intelligence. He is not "pseudo" he is a bona fide intellectual, well educated and brilliant if controversial. You may not always agree with his views as, for example. his derogatory view of the Ground Zero mosque protesters but, as this piece shows, unlike the intellectual elite ensconced in their tenured ivory towers of academe he does not hesitate to adjust his view based on factual evidence even at the risk of eating a little crow; not that he will consider an intelligent reassessment of the situation eating crow.

We would, all of us, including those like most of us with average intelligence, be much better off with a lot more like him. We could have meaningful debates with productive give and take instead of the ad hominem attacks vomited from the smug, narcissistic left with disturbing and frustrating regularity.

Hesperado wrote:

"Make sure you also report dumbledoresarmy's elegant quotation, in response to the initial commenter,"

What for? Dda's comment did not advocate responding to one person's damaging of a building by annihilating whole cities leaving "no survivors." Dda's comment talks about the bloody and nasty things that are sometimes done in warfare in times past.

Spirit Wolf,

You wrote:

"My comment was formulated on the basis that Muslims see niceness as weakness. It also uses the Tit-For-Tat philosophy, to turn Muslim's own ideology against them."

So by your conception responding to one person's damaging of a building by annihilating whole cites and leaving "no survivors" in them is "Tit-for-tat"?

You wrote:
"If no Infidel can be considered innocent by Muslims, then why should Infidels assume Muslims settling in our countries are "innocent"?"

What's this got to do with you advocating annihilation of whole cities full of people leaving "no survivors" in retaliation for one person damaging a building?

"Must we continue taking attacks on us lying down?"

Last time I checked, if someone damages a building, there are appropriate legal remedies, short of annihilating whole cities, to deal the perpetrator.

"I'm sure you guys think we must, because that's what Sharia demands, eh?"

I'm not sure where you get the idea that I would allow sharia or would want sharia. I have actively opposed sharia and will continue to do so.

It seems to me you are trying to avoid responsibility for your comments by creating a diversion and fabricating a false allegation against me.

Well, it seems to me that absolutely nothing we've done so far has deterred Islamists from their mission.

What do you suggest we do with them? Slap them in the butt with a wet towel? Or would that be too cruel for you?

Spirit Wolf,

First you make outlandish comments, causing problems for JihadWatch. Then you make up a false allegation against me. I will not carry on a discussion with you until you acknowledge that (a) you were wrong to advocate annihilating whole cities full of people as a retaliatory response to one person's damaging a building, and were wrong in your other advocated responses whereby mass killings would be carried out in response for one person's crime, etc., and (b) you withdraw the false allegation that I would be willing to allow sharia or that I advocate taking continuing attacks lying down.

In other words, stop advocating the annihilation of civilian populations, and stop making stuff up about me, and apologize for these things, and we might be able to have a conversation.

You said: "And as far as "civilian populations" go, don't you understand the the Ummah itself is an army? All of them are "soldiers of Allah", and should be treated as such."

At bottom, you're right. That's why they kill apostates - because apostates are viewed and treated as if they are deserters in time of war.

And mosques are forts, command posts, bunkers, advance bases, magazines, bomb-making factories, torture dungeons: temples for the cult of blood and war. Someone in the counter-jihad movement, somewhere, compared them to 'aircraft carriers'.

This mosque that the Muslims want to build, as close to the WTC site as they can get -of course, what they really want is to build an enormous mosque, just like the Blue Mosque in Constantinople, right in the middle of the blasted space where the Towers stood - will be *the* Muslim military base in NYC; second to that huge mosque Mr Hitchens just told us about, in his article, the one with the minaret. It will be their Mosque de Triomphe, if they're not stopped.

They have to be stopped.

Kinana:

Dda's comment did not advocate responding to one person's damaging of a building by annihilating whole cities leaving "no survivors."

Spirit Wolf's original comment has been deleted and I didn't save a copy, and I do not recall his exact wording, but my impression was that he was not referring to the "damaging of a building" but to what happened to the Trade Towers.

The real question is, how many non-Muslims must suffer and die while the West plays the "we won't stoop" game?

And since when have Muslims ("civilians" or otherwise) been concerned about how many non-Muslim civilians they kill or maim?


A bit of background on our good friend - and I would call her 'friend' - Spirit Wolf, for you, and for others who may be reading this thread, now or in the future.

Spirit Wolf is a she not a he, and hails from Canada.

I am surprised you (Hesperado) don't seem to remember much about Spirit Wolf, for she contributed a lot here during the IntenseDebate era in 2009. I liked - and like - her.

Like GravenImage and BoschFawstin, she is a talented artist - specialising in the drawing of animals. (She has been working on a semi-allegorical graphic novel with animal characters). She once did a rather nice piece representing Geert Wilders in the form of a lion.

She being an artist, her 'wake-up call' re. Islam was the Muslim attack upon the Danish cartoonists; that was what alarmed her and set her googling round in search of answers, and brought her to jihadwatch, where she rapidly learned all she needed to know.

Interestingly, like GravenImage she is an intelligent survivor of abuse, who has correctly recognised in Islam, and Muslims, the profile of an Abuser. Hence the laser-like fury of her 'controversial' posting. Her life experience has been such that she knows how evil bullies work, and what one sometimes has to do to stop them.

I would add that given that Canada has just arrested a nice sweet young Muslim couple with a little baby, who turn out to have been Al Qaeda affiliated mass-murder jihad plotters, another Spirit Wolf posting above (that also seems to have been deleted) in which she argued that Muslims ought to be perceived as soldiers in an army, has just been proven right in spades.

dumbledoresarmy,

I'm surprised you focus your attention on me, who have been defending Spirit Wolf, and not Kinana of Khaybar, who made sure that Spirit Wolf's comment was deleted, and who continues to condemn her position, apparently on the basis of misunderstanding her.

dda and Hesperado,

As a reader of this site I believe the rules for posting comments are clear enough and should be respected. I believe that posters should help enforce the site rules, and report any genocidal or racist comments, or comments advocating mass murder, etc. There are many people out there who want to damage the reputation of the site or cause problems for JihadWatch. There are others who apparently don't care as much about the mission of JihadWatch as they do about having a place to post their own thoughts and think they can post whatever outrageous nonsense they wish and expect JihadWatch to display it for them.

The theme of Spirit Wolf's post involved advocating retaliations whereby if one Muslim does something to a Westerner, or to even to property in the West (e.g., a building), the West should respond by killing large numbers of Muslims (e.g., 100 Muslims apparently just "scooped up" and beheaded, or firebombing a whole city of people, leaving "no survivors.")

If you don't understand why it is wrong to advocate wiping out whole cities full of people as a response to one person damaging a building, there is not much more that I can say. I am dismayed to find Hesperado claiming in effect that he doesn't remember what he endorsed, and dda apparently glossing over the context and the intent of what Spirit Wolf said and relating the "army of Allah" statement to the topic of apostasy in Islam. Spirit Wolf in the follow-up comment in response to me was trying to justify firebombing a city in part by claiming that all Muslims are part of the "army of Allah."

Here is what "Yusef YK" quoted (see above) from Spirit Wolf:

"If a Westerner is beheaded by Muslims, then the country whose citizen it was should scoop up 100 Muslims living within its borders, and send their heads back to the offending country or group.
If a Muslim even damages a building in the West, or owned by Western interests, one of their cities gets firebombed so that it is obliviated, completely. Ensure no survivors."

Spirit Wolf also advocated other such responses. The "beheading" comment is as I remember it, and I can verify that the "building" comment is quoted 100% accurately because I quoted it by cutting and pasting it into my note to JihadWatch.

Genocidal comments should be deleted, along with anything promoting vigilantism -- or that encourage returning evil for evil. The last thing we want to become is like our enemy: islam & company.

I'm not taking sides, I'm just sayin' ...

:)

I think Spirit Wolf's comment was deleted specifically because of the direct (and unfair) blame this particular blog is getting from the MSM over one or more attacks on Muslims. Of course, the MSM cannot bring itself to face the fact that people are simply getting fed up, all on their own, just from what they hear on the MSM itself, with Islam and those who carry this peculiar malevolent memeplex.

That being said, I believe the point was, essentially, this:

The West - in both its Pagan and Christian iterations, used to have balls. It used to have a sense of self-preservation, of national identity and pride. Yes, this caused many fratricidal European wars. But when Europe was threatened from the outside, by Muslim invaders, such nationalistic differences could be put aside in the name of a common religion, which aided in forging a sense of common culture as compared to the invading Other. Even the ancient Greek city-states banded together to defend their common Hellenic heritage from the pre-Muslim Persian, on the basis of their more or less common beliefs, language, and lifestyle.

It is not modern secularism that is the problem - that in itself conveys common culture as well, in the form of laws that are meant to be followed by all, regardless of individual spiritual belief.

The problem comes in the fact that, in our self-shame, we Westerners (particularly, white Westerners) have lost/denied our indentities, on racial, cultural and nationalistic grounds. All these things, in the modern-day neo-religion of Political Correctness, are considered Bad Things. We are taught to be colour-blind, to be culture-blind, to be, well, blind.

The problem with this is, no one else is being taught this vis-a-vis themselves.

This brings us to the problem of Islam, which is inherently supremacist, and racist, to boot. Muslims are not taught to be ashamed of these negative elements. It's OK for them to be supremacist, because they are "not white", and only people with power (white people) can be either racist or supremacist. (I have seen this line of reasoning lately, most notably in a Newsweek article a while back about racism in (white) babies.) This reasoning, of course, applies to people of all non-European descent or heritage.

So we do not notice, or actively deny, racism in all its forms against "The Man", while being ever-vigilant for signs of racism amongst whites. Of course, the "minorities" are encouraged to look for it, too. And they are encouraged to find some kind of justification for any act of racism they might commit that they know guilt-ridden honkies will swallow.

Islam is both the culture and religion of the "minority". It creates a common culture amongst people of different races, though very few people of European descent/heritage are attracted to it (though the ones who are, are quite likely, the most self-hating of the bunch.) This is why it's tricky to deal with, in today's PC/multicultural climate. Islam is the very symbol of that Other, which must now be treated with kid gloves, no matter how barbaric and determined to take over that Other really is.

While we focus on terrorism - and even this is becoming a flash-point for the PC/MC fundamentalists - we have the parallel, and all but invisible, problem of _peaceful_ cultural erosion and subsumation of the Western host. It is the question asked in "The Camp of the Saints":

"What do you do with invaders who come, not with weapons, but with empty, outstretched hands?"

This is a more important question than you might think, as many Muslims, from the worst countries, manage to come over as "refugees" .. and refugees are, apparently, never to be questioned now. And if anyone does question, say, a load of boat people with suspicious origins, the PC/MC acolytes will say "The UN says we have to. We signed a treaty." And we must not be treaty-breakers any more.

I also get the sense that the self-hating whites, and the jealous "minorities", WANT to see the West fall. If the Third World can't be raised up (and seven billion people cannot all live like Americans), then, by gum, we'll bring the West down to Third World level.

Islam is the rallying point for all this, and possibly more, And we no longer know how to react to a threat against our survival as a people, a race, a culture, a way of life, our civilization and all its fruits. We no longer know how to defend it, and many won't even have the will.

Isn't it time we grew some balls back?


I am in perfect agreement.

For centuries the "Türken-Geld" was collected in the lands of the Holy German Empire. A special tax to pay for the defense of Christian Europe against the Moslem Turk.

"If you don't understand why it is wrong to advocate wiping out whole cities full of people as a response to one person damaging a building..."

I already responded to this once before. My response was very brief and surely could not have taxed your reading comprehension with its length or complexity.

Hesperado,

No; I understood your posts. You now appear to be obfuscating over the issue of the comments you clearly endorsed and are trying to suggest I misunderstood something in your post. I think you understood exactly what Spirit Wolf said and I think you knew exactly what you were endorsing when you said she was "on the right track" with her comments. Subsequently, you then appear to have fabricated, or perhaps confabulated, the notion that Spirit Wolf was referring to retaliation to an attack such as al-Qaida's on the Trade Towers. But that's not what she said. She said "If a Muslim even damages a building in the West, or owned by Western interests, one of their cities gets firebombed so that it is obliviated, completely. Ensure no survivors." And in the brief follow-up exchange with me, she reaffirmed it, saying "...And as far as "civilian populations" go, don't you understand the the Ummah itself is an army? All of them are "soldiers of Allah", and should be treated as such. And I ABSOLUTELY REFUSE to aplogise for anything I've ever said here. I mean what I say, and I say what I mean..."

Spirit Wolf's comments clearly violated the rules, and your posting of an endorsement of the comments also violated the rules. And if you disagree with this interpretation, I suggest you try taking up your issue with JihadWatch. I have nothing more to say to you.

Dalaran,

You write
"I think Spirit Wolf's comment was deleted specifically because of the direct (and unfair) blame this particular blog is getting from the MSM over one or more attacks on Muslims."

And then you launch into an essay that digresses from the issue regarding the relevant contents of Spirit Wolf's post.

I suggest a simpler explanation: Spirit Wolf posted something that blatantly violated the rules of the site. (I need not repeat, yet again, what she said; see the above comments). I notified JihadWatch about it. They deleted the comment. I then had a brief exchange with Spirit Wolf, in which she made it clear that she meant what she said (i.e., she did not claim the original comments were just ill-considered, angry remarks, but instead reaffirmed what she had advocated). I then notified JihadWatch again, quoting her subsequent remarks, and I suggested that Spirit Wolf be banned. JihadWatch also deemed fit to ban her. I applaud them for it.

They have banned posters or deleted other such foul comments long before the recent surge in popularity.

Kinana, as I said before, I didn't copy Spirit Wolf's original comment, and only read it once. In my memory of it, I didn't recall a justification of bombing a whole city of people merely in response to Muslims "damaging a building" of ours.

When I first told you all this, you failed to reproduce the copy of Spirit Wolf's actual comment verbatim. Now finally you did. If that was indeed Spirit Wolf's comment, I agree with you: we should not retaliate against the "damage of one of our buildings" by firebombing a Muslim city. I still suspect, however, that Spirit Wolf was not thinking literally in terms of a Muslim merely "damaging a building" -- but was thinking of the 911 attack. If my suspicion is correct, I would not be so hasty to condemn her. If we knew that Muslims were culpable for 911, I don't think such a reprisal out of the question: the only difficulty is the plausible deniability Muslims get away with, by being so "un-monolithic".

The story of the juramentado attacks in the Spanish Philippines area in the 17th century is emblematic of this: Muslims were going around suicidally attacking crowds with knives, killing as many innocent people as possible and hoping they in turn would be killed, in order to achieve their Islamic Paradise. This was becoming a major problem, so the Spanish sent a message to the most influential Muslim leader at the time, a Sultan of some nearby SE Asian region. He responded by saying, "Those are just extremist fanatics; we have no control over them."

The Spanish, not being diseased by PC MC as we are in our time, did not believe him, and they came up with a clever ploy: They sent ships to the coast near the Sultans palace and surrounding town and began assaulting it with cannon fire. The Sultan sent an urgent message to them, "What are you doing!?"

The Spanish sent a message to the Sultan, saying, "those are just some fanatical extremists, we have no control over them" -- and continued the bombardment.

From then on, the suicide knife attacks by Muslims supposedly unrelated to the Sultan ceased.

Hesperado,

Despite saying I have nothing more to say to you, I do make exceptions for addressing false or misleading allegations. You wrote:

"Kinana, as I said before, I didn't copy Spirit Wolf's original comment, and only read it once. In my memory of it, I didn't recall a justification of bombing a whole city of people merely in response to Muslims "damaging a building" of ours. When I first told you all this [August 26, 2010 9:51 AM], you failed to reproduce the copy of Spirit Wolf's actual comment verbatim. Now finally you did [August 27, 2010 9:31 PM]. If that was indeed Spirit Wolf's comment, I agree with you: we should not retaliate against the "damage of one of our buildings" by firebombing a Muslim city."
[My emphasis and brackets added]

The emphasized claim is not true or at best gives a misleading impression. If you look up at my earlier post, Kinana of Khaybar | August 26, 2010 11:07 PM, addressed to dda and Hesperado, you will see me quoting Yusef YK's quote that includes the "building" comment in question, to which I added "...and I can verify that the "building" comment is quoted 100% accurately because I quoted it by cutting and pasting it into my note to JihadWatch."

Quoted "100% accurately" is "verbatim."

Yet you claim "Now finally you did" {i.e., in reference to my reproducing the "building" quote verbatim on August 27, 2010 9:31 PM). If you call the latter verbatim, why not the former?

Other notes:

"Yusef YK" had already quoted the "building" comment, and quoted your endorsement of it. (That's still there in this thread).

It is your responsibility to know what you are endorsing. You clearly indicated that you were surprised that JW had not deleted Spirit Wolf's post, i.e., the post which contained the "building" comment. This implies that you believed the post that you endorsed was probably in violation of JihadWatch policy.

Again, if you have a difference of opinion on this, take it up with JihadWatch.

Kinana,

My mistake; I guess when my eyes got down to the phrase in your post where you wrote "Here is what "Yusef YK" quoted...", they glazed over. I would not trust Yusef YK to reproduce a quote accurately.

While I admit I was in error for making the subsequent claim that you had not previously provided a quote of Spirit Wolf's words in question, a subsidiary problem seems to have arisen in its wake: If you had saved Spirit Wolf's comment by copying it for your files, why did you rely on Yusef YK's copy? Why not simply reproduce your own copy? These questions become more, not less, acute when you go on to say that "...I can verify that the "building" comment is quoted 100% accurately because I quoted it by cutting and pasting it into my note to JihadWatch." -- for, this implies that you once possessed that copy-paste text, emailed it to Jihad Watch as a complaint against Spirit Wolf's comment, but apparently now lost that copy-paste? I assume you did not email it, for you could easily retrieve your "sent" email and reproduce the text from there -- but that you utilized the box on the Jihad Watch page which provides no way of salvaging what one has sent. The reason this is important is that if my description here is accurate, you do not have 100% confirmation of Yusef YK's quote: you still have your memory, based upon a copy-paste you have lost and which you no longer can provide in order to confirm whether or not your memory recall captures fully the verbatim text.

Kinana - Yer just an uptight rule nazi who needs to take the stick out of yer butt.

Hesperado - Yea, I think that's exactly what S.W. had in mind.

As for the knife attack anectode, interestingly enough, there were similar random knife attacks in Calgary a few years ago. AFAIK, no one was ever caught.

And you still failed to answer the most salient question, Kinana ...

How much must we take from Muslims, and how bad must it get, and how awful must the response be by that time?

Hesperado,

When I said I had verified the building quote, I meant that. To be absolutely clear, I verified it (Yusef YK's copy) from my own copy of Spirit Wolf's building quote as pasted the email I sent to JW. I still have my email copy of the building quote, from Spirit Wolf's post. It is 100% consistent with Yusef YK's quote of it, and I know this because I compared his quote of it with my quote of it, word-by-word. If you don't believe my quote of the building comment is accurate, contact JihadWatch and get them to show you the record of my email (if they have it), which included the building quote and a link to Spirit Wolf's full post.

In my previous comment, under Yusef YK's quote of the beheading and building comments, I said "The "beheading" comment is as I remember it, and I can verify that the "building" comment is quoted 100% accurately because I quoted it by cutting and pasting it into my note to JihadWatch."

You will note that in my comment, there is an obvious distinction between what I "remember" (the beheading quote), and what "I can verify" (the building quote) as "quoted 100% accurately." If I had been relying on memory for both comments, I would have said so. The only reason I used Yusef YK's quote above was because it also contained the "beheading" quote, which I didn't include in my initial email to JW, only because in that email I had also included the link to Spirit Wolf's full post, of which the building quote was but one example.

But if you are serious and sincere in your request for veracity of the comment, why are you asking me all of this? You apparently doubt the accuracy of what I quoted and say you suspect that I do not have a copy of the original building quote. Perhaps you are putting on a display of doubt so that others will doubt me regarding the contents of the building comment? That's fine. If you doubt the veracity of my quote, then why don't you seek veracity from JihadWatch?

a couple of typos from my previous post [corrections in brackets]

"...verified it (Yusef YK's copy) from my own copy of Spirit Wolf's building quote as pasted [into] the email I sent to JW."

and

"...in that email I had also included the link to Spirit Wolf's full post, [in] which the building quote was but one example."

Dalaran,

The fact that you would resort to a most vile insult, and fabricate an allegation against me, reveals more about you than anything or anyone else.

But you ARE a rule Nazi. You're going on and on about rules, and not answering Spirit Wolf's question about how far must we go, how far must we be willing to go, to defend ourselves and our civilization.

This also brings up speech issues. We're supposed to be defending freedom of speech.

Muslims say things like that all the time, on the news, etc, and no one blinks an eye. Mr Spencer is good at reporting that himself.

I know we're supposed to be playing the "we're better than them, we won't stoop to their level" game, but I always thought that game rather boring, and nothing more than pompous frippery, a salve for the ego. I don't play it, myself.

Neither did Vlad the Impaler; he knew what the only language was that Muslims understood or respected.

Dalaran,

The fact that you so senselessly throw around the word "nazi" suggests to me that you do not have a very close relationship with the truth.

It is clear enough to me as a long-time reader and commenter at this site that people are welcome to come here and post, hopefully learning and contributing something, and even to discuss ways to oppose jihad and sharia. It is also clear to me that people are not welcome to use Robert's site to advocate such atrocious things as annihilating an entire city full of people as a retaliation for one person damaging a building. If a commenter does post something like that, and if those who run the site find out about it, they will probably at minimum delete the post. If the commenter then persists in advocating those atrocious things, the commenter will probably be banned.

If you don't like those rules, which you suggest, in your fatuous insults, are overly restrictive either in substance or in enforcement, you are free to complain to those who can actually do something to change those rules. But I suspect you are too cowardly to do this. You would rather fiddle around, posturing and posing as tough, hurling insults at me. If you believe what you are saying about me being a "rule nazi," what would you call the person who actually deleted Spirit Wolf's post? What would you call the person who banned Spirit Wolf? If you have not contacted JihadWatch directly, and have not said to them what you've said to me, you are a coward for not standing behind what you are saying. (Note: I'm not recommending that you actually contact them. They have enough on their plates and don't deserve any abuse from you. I'm saying this to point out the cowardly selectivity of your addressing your complaints and insults at me exclusively in this incident).

If you sincerely believe that Spirit Wolf's post containing the building quote should not have been deleted and that she should not have been banned, you won't be wasting time arguing with me in the comments section. You will be contacting JihadWatch, presenting a case, including quotation from the Spirit Wolf posts in question, supporting why you sincerely believe those posts should not have been deleted and why she should not have been banned. If you do not have such a quotation, but still believe my quote of Spirit Wolf is not accurate, you can contact JihadWatch and ask them if they have a record of it. Are you doing any of that? I suspect you are not.

What you have said to me is, for all practical purposes, noise. It is annoying, yes. But it is basically senseless. It is empty posturing. You are either ignorant of what Spirit Wolf actually wrote in the post in question (the one that contained the "building" quote)--in which case what you write about it against me is at best unconscionably reckless--, or you do know what she wrote (including the building quote) and you are only pretending that you believe* Hesperado's subsequent and apparently speculative suggestion, about Spirit Wolf's post (which contained the building quote, among others).

*I.e., I'm referring to where you wrote: "Hesperado - Yea, I think that's exactly what S.W. had in mind." Hesperado has either fabricated (i.e., lied) or confabulated (i.e., false memory reconstruction, in this case with some very convenient self-saving bias), after the fact, the idea that Spirit Wolf was talking about retaliating against attacks such as or like, and of the magnitude, of the attacks on the Trade Towers. Spirit Wolf didn't say that. Here again is her original quote:

"If a Muslim even damages a building in the West, or owned by Western interests, one of their cities gets firebombed so that it is obliviated, completely. Ensure no survivors."

That's what she said. And she later reaffirmed it in her exchange with me. Sufficient evidence for this is shown in the posts above, which you can read. If you want confirmation of the exact quote, contact JihadWatch and politely ask them to show you the record.

Need I point out that the attack on the Trade Towers involved several Muslims hijacking two planes (767s) loaded with passengers, using the planes as giant missiles laden with fuel to crash into two enormous buildings full of thousands of civilians, at several hundred miles an hour, causing horrendous deaths, and ultimately utterly demolishing the buildings and resulting in the brutal and heinous murders of nearly 3000 people. Do you honestly think that someone who writes "If a Muslim even damages a building" (i.e., a quote that does not mention deaths or even injuries) was intending to refer to such a large-scale murderous attack on people as occurred in the attacks on the Trade Towers on 9/11?

As improbable and as unwarranted as that interpretation is, there is even stronger and more direct evidence that she was not referring to attacks such as those on the Trade Towers. In my follow-up exchange with Spirit Wolf she did not dispute or disavow what I repeatedly said about her advocating annihilating the entire population of a city (or cities) in response to one person damaging a building. Rather, she clearly reaffirmed what she said, justifying it on the grounds that all Muslims (including civilian populations) are members of the army of Allah. Once again, I quote what she wrote in the follow-up exchange:

"...And as far as "civilian populations" go, don't you understand the the Ummah itself is an army? All of them are "soldiers of Allah", and should be treated as such. And I ABSOLUTELY REFUSE to aplogise for anything I've ever said here. I mean what I say, and I say what I mean..."

Your attempt to deny what she said and then affirmed, is ludicrous. Your attempt to blame me in this incident, as if I had done something wrong in reporting it to Jihadwatch, would be preposterous if it weren't so galling and unethical. Your calling me any kind of "nazi," for helping JihadWatch enforce an unwritten but common sense rule that prohibits people from (among other things) advocating mass murder of civilians, is disgusting.

Clarification. When I wrote "Do you honestly think that someone who writes "If a Muslim even damages a building" (i.e., a quote that does not mention deaths or even injuries)," by the parenthetical remark I meant to refer to the part of the building quote referring to the action of the one Muslim, i.e., damaging a building. Thus, the one Muslim in question is not said to have caused any deaths or injuries. The deaths of course are clearly entailed in reference to the part of the quote about the Westerners' retaliation on an entire city.

And to add a further point on the obvious meaning of Spirit Wolf's building comment, she used the word "even." In the building comment, this means that she is saying that merely damaging a building is sufficient to warrant retaliation in the form of annihilating a city and ensuring "no survivors."

First, I shall explain the origin of the phrase "Rules Nazi".

It comes from geeky little role playing game types. RPGs are nothing more than a form of formalized group storytelling. A good gamemaster (or Storyteller) knows not only the rules, but also when they should be bent, broken or ignored, and _how_ to enforce or observe them the rest of the time. A Rule Nazi is a player who has missed the point of the game (the story), missed everything what's been going on around him, and jumps on the gamemaster about rules that s/he is not observing/enforcing (without stopping to think for a minute that the gamemaster has something in mind to which the players are not privy yet.)

In short, it's not my place to speculate on the rightness or wrongness of SW's banishment. That decision was up to the rightful administrators of this site, and they would have had their own reasons for doing so. YOU are not an administrator, either, and YOU are the one harping about the damn RULES, while MISSING what has been said about the fact that Muslims ought NOT to be considered civilians, in ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. They are ALL a part of the Army of Allah, whether or not they are going around actually doing any PHYSICAL damage, because their mere PRESENCE is damaging to society ENOUGH, as a bunch of FIFTH COLUMNISTS.

After all, they DO NOT consider ANY of _us_ to be civilians, or innocent in any way, DO THEY? That's why they have no qualms at all about setting off bombs in shops and cafes and things. THAT is Tit-For-Tat.

And the question comes around AGAIN - How do YOU suggest we handle it? Because they will continue to set their bomb vests off in places frequented by CIVILIANS until they get the hint that we will treat them like they treat us, ONLY WE WILL WIN, by use of SUPERIOR FORCE.

It's the same reason the Americans dropped The Bomb on Japan in WWII - it was the ONLY way to get the message across - stop fighting us, or DIE - EN MASSE.

What on EARTH do you think IRAN is going to do once they have their nukes good to go?

THINK with your BRAIN, and not your EMOTION.


Oh, and just in case the point isn't clear enough, "surrender or die en masse" is EXACTLY the message that Islam. AND THE HUMANS it needs in order to be an actuality, is sending to _us_.

Dalaran,

You wrote:

"Oh, and just in case the point isn't clear enough, "surrender or die en masse" is EXACTLY the message that Islam."

1. What point was it that you were making? It's not clear what you are saying has to do with Spirit Wolf's post. Spirit Wolf's post advocated annihilating an entire city ensuring "no survivors" as a retaliation for one Muslim damaging a building.

2. Your sentence ends with "...the message that Islam." It looks like an incomplete sentence.

You wrote:

"AND THE HUMANS it needs in order to be an actuality, is sending to _us_."

Again, this is not "clear enough." It is not even a comprehensible sentence. If you're looking for a response to this, you're going to have to write out clearly what you are talking about.

Dalaran,

You wrote:

"First, I shall explain the origin of the phrase "Rules Nazi"."

I think your explanation is just more dishonest, irrelevant nonsense designed to distract from the issue that arose in this thread due to Spirit Wolf's post. I've never heard of "rule Nazi" before this and the alleged origins of the word do not mitigate the vile nature of your personal attack on me in this context. I take being called any kind of "nazi" as a major insult. Instead of addressing the issue, you resort to personal insult.

You wrote:

"In short, it's not my place to speculate on the rightness or wrongness of SW's banishment."

What's wrong with speculating about the rightness or wrongness of Spirit Wolf's banishment? Anyways, this is just more dishonesty and posturing from you. You clearly did speculate on the rightness or wrongness of Spirit Wolf's banishment, where you wrote, in an earlier post:

"I think Spirit Wolf's comment was deleted specifically because of the direct (and unfair) blame this particular blog is getting from the MSM over one or more attacks on Muslims."

You are indirectly accusing the administrators of this site of truckling to the opinions of others, in this case the MSM, and the implication in your allegation is that, were it not for this MSM influence, JW would not have deleted the comment based only on their own sense of judgment or set of criteria (or--gasp!--rules!). You are citing that specifically as the reason Spirit Wolf's comment was deleted. That's nonsense. Anyone who's been around this site long enough knows that a comment like Spirit Wolf's, which advocated murder of civilians on a massive scale in retaliation for one person damaging a building, definitely goes against what Robert Spencer believes. Hence, if one knows the site, one knows that comments like that are likely to be deleted.

"That decision was up to the rightful administrators of this site, and they would have had their own reasons for doing so."

Well, in the past, the rightful administrators of this site have asked posters to report any such comments to them. I did that. And I'll bet my reasons for reporting it overlapped substantially with their reasons for deleting it, e.g., the poster advocated mass murder of civilians in response to an outlandishly flimsy pretext. It's morally wrong to advocate wiping out a city full of people in retaliation for one person damaging a building. It (the statement) will be used as ammunition by enemies of the site. It is annoying that some people think they can post stuff like that. It wastes time. It generates useless and time-consuming discussions, such as we are having, that accomplish little or nothing, while there are more important things most people here would rather be doing. (Notice how you and me are the only two people in this discussion at this point?) JihadWatch can delete any comment it sees fit for any reasons it sees fit. If a comment is merely "annoying," they can delete it, and I've seen this happen. It's their show, their freedom of expression in producing a website; it's not only about the freedom of expression of the posters.

"YOU are not an administrator, either,"

That's an irrelevant and misleading accusation, because I never claimed to be an administrator, nor did I act as one.

"...and YOU are the one harping about the damn RULES,"

Let's keep in mind the unwritten rule we are talking about here. There is evidently an unwritten rule at JihadWatch such that you can't post a comment here intending to advocate wiping out the whole civilian population of a city in response to one person damaging a building. The rule of course is not so specific, but one recognizes, through common sense, that that sort of thing isn't allowed. And with a bit of common sense, reasonable people of good conscience seem to understand this and accept it, and abide by it.

"...while MISSING what has been said about the fact that Muslims ought NOT to be considered civilians, in ANY CIRCUMSTANCES."

No, I saw that claim. I read what Spirit Wolf said and what you are also now saying, and I disagree with both of you. I've already addressed this issue in regards to Spirit Wolf's post.

"They are ALL a part of the Army of Allah,"

I disagree. I distinguish in principle, for example, between civilians and people who are engaged in fighting against us. Spirit Wolf was talking about intentionally targeting a city full of mostly, if not entirely, civilians, and annihilating them, ensuring "no survivors," in retaliation for one person damaging a building.

"whether or not they are going around actually doing any PHYSICAL damage, because their mere PRESENCE is damaging to society ENOUGH, as a bunch of FIFTH COLUMNISTS."

Again, let's get back to the point: Spirit Wolf's post advocated annihilating a city full of civilians as a retaliation for one person damaging a building. That comment wasn't about annihilating "fifth columnists."

"After all, they DO NOT consider ANY of _us_ to be civilians, or innocent in any way, DO THEY? That's why they have no qualms at all about setting off bombs in shops and cafes and things. THAT is Tit-For-Tat."

Ah, and as you said earlier, you don't play that game of 'we won't stoop to their level'. You believe we should stoop to their level? I disagree. Just because they target and mass murder civilians for the flimsiest of pretexts, doesn't mean that we should.

"And the question comes around AGAIN - How do YOU suggest we handle it? Because they will continue to set their bomb vests off in places frequented by CIVILIANS until they get the hint that we will treat them like they treat us, ONLY WE WILL WIN, by use of SUPERIOR FORCE."

I've already answered the relevant point here. Spirit Wolf advocated wiping out a city full of people in response to one person damaging a building. As I said, there are legal remedies to handle that one person who damages a building; we don't need to wipe out a whole city of people in response.

I will not be dragged off the topic at hand. The topic at hand is the content of Spirit Wolf's posts, specifically the combination of the one that got deleted and the follow-up that got her banned. (Yes, that's right, Spirit Wolf's comments got her banned; she's to blame for it. Not the judges, and not the citizen who reported it).

"It's the same reason the Americans dropped The Bomb on Japan in WWII - it was the ONLY way to get the message across - stop fighting us, or DIE - EN MASSE."

They did not drop the bomb on two cities in Japan in retaliation for one Japanese person damaging a building.

"What on EARTH do you think IRAN is going to do once they have their nukes good to go?"

That looks like a rhetorical question, so I need not answer. I will only remind you that the topic at issue, the only one I'm interested in discussing in this thread at this point, is the content of Spirit Wolf's post.

"THINK with your BRAIN, and not your EMOTION."

(Okay, a brief digression, because the above comment looks silly). Your comment, implying an exclusive either/or dichotomy between the brain (a physical organ) and a class of mental or phenomenological states and associated behaviours and physiological responses) called emotions suggests you do not understand modern psychology and neuroscience. They show that the brain contains the primary centers, and "the seats," if you will, of the emotions.

Anyways, it doesn't matter how emotional you think my response was. (But, for future reference, calling your interlocutor a "nazi" three times and then trying to b.s. your way out it instead of apologizing might be expected to engage the emotions of your interlocutor).

The only relevant issue here (besides the actual topic of this thread, re Hitchens' article about the GZ mosque etc.) is the contents of Spirit Wolf's posts. She wrote:

"If a Muslim even damages a building in the West, or owned by Western interests, one of their cities gets firebombed so that it is obliviated, completely. Ensure no survivors."

Do you agree, or do you disagree, with her statement?

In the follow-up exchange with me, where she justified what she said in the above comment, she wrote to me:

"...And as far as "civilian populations" go, don't you understand the the Ummah itself is an army? All of them are "soldiers of Allah", and should be treated as such. And I ABSOLUTELY REFUSE to aplogise for anything I've ever said here. I mean what I say, and I say what I mean..."

Do you agree, or do you disagree, with her statement?

Finally, if you do agree with either or both of her statements quoted above, do you plan to post comments, in the future, expressing the same sentiments as did Spirit Wolf?

1. Your skin is far too thin to be on the internet. You ought to go grow a hide.

2. As for your harping on about "civilians", what you fail to see is that there is a difference in the way Muslims see things like that, and the way WE see things like that. You are not dropping your Western filters.

You see war in a formalized, Western fashion, that has certain rules and distinctions that all parties are supposed to follow. Those parties are supposed to be official arms of the governments of the nations at war with each other. This notion stems from that peculiar time in Western history, when ranged dps fighters (archers or gunmen) would line in neat rows, one behind the other, facing the enemy across a nice, clean field, and take turns shooting the hell out of one another.

War wasn't always that way even in the West, and that garbage didn't last long, either. It died when it met the Red Indian, who didn't follow the same rules the European did. These people were so fierce in their fighting, they apparently even managed to repel the Vikings from colonizing Newfoundland. The Vikings, however, did not have the advantage of guns (superior weaponry) that the Europeans had, and it was only the gun which kept post-Columbians from going the way of the Viking. That, and a change in battle strategy.

Indians, you see, were not stupid enough to commit what they would see as a weird form of ritual mutual suicide. What Whitey thought was gentlemanly, the Indian saw as grossly stupid.

They knew what war was really about, and they reminded the whites - at least for a while, until the 20th century, when old, odd notions of chivalry are half-remembered and garbled all to hell.

The same was more or less true for the Japanese in WWII. They were fierce fighters, and had their religion behind them. The Emperor was a god, you see, so victory was always assured. While Japan did have a standing, formal army, this religious fervor meant that, if the Americans had invaded as planned, every last Japanese "civilian" would have taken up arms against the US and Allied armies, and they would have had to have been slaughtered anyway.

What were they to do, allow these "civilians" to hack them to pieces with dinner knives?

So, US authorities figured that a nuke or two would actually result in FEWER Japanese casualties than an all-out military invasion would. Were they right? We'll never really know, because we can't experiment. However, it's reasonable to believe they were, given the drive that religion can give to people, especially when they feel their religion (even moreso than themselves) is threatened.

This fast-forwards us to modern-day Muslims. AFAIK, most Muslim countries are not signatory to the Geneva Convention (neither was Japan during WWII). The implication of this means that they are exempt from either following it, or having the right to be treated by its terms.

Also, the Geneva Convention (our modern-day formalization of war) does not apply to fighters who are not offical parts of a government army. This covers suicide bombers, the Taliban, Al-Quaeda, and probably 99% or better of Mujahideen, Muslim fighters. By your lights, and indeed by the lights of the "rules of war", they are "civilians" themselves.

Does this mean we should not be raising a hand against these groups, seeing as how they are "civilians"?

Second point - Muslims seeing themselves as "an army". Any one of them may be called up to duty, either by fighters or "by Allah", to kill infidels, as is his Islamic duty. This makes any one of them potentially a suicide bomber - any "civilian". Any Muslim can be called into "military" service at any time, simply on the command of his god (his commander-in-chief). This means that they should ALL be considered army reservists - and army reservists ARE legitimate military targets.

As for children (because I KNOW they're gonna get dragged in here next, and is probably your primary concern, anyway) ....

It is well documented that Muslim children are taught Islamic ideology from the teat. They are taught to be little soldiers of Allah in their madrassas. Therefore, the children can be considered cadets.

And, though they don't tell you this when you sign up for Canadian army cadets when you're 12 or 13 ....... cadets aren't considered civilians, either. They are also legitimate military targets in time of war. And even in Canada, cadet corps CAN be called into active service, although ideally, it's not supposed to be done until all the rest of the military is wiped out. However, they can indeed be called into active military service.

By this reality, then your concerns about "civilians" in the Muslim world. There simply is no such animal.


Correction:

By this reality, then your concerns about "civilians" in the Muslim world are nullified. There simply is no such animal.

Oh, and the other thing you wanted cleared up:

Islam is an ideology, a memeplex. It would be nothing, of no import or harm to anyone or anything, without minds capable of reading and understanding what the Koran and Hadith says. This means human beings, as there is no other living species we know of that can read Arabic. If the Koran and Hadiths were the only things to survive total human extinction, and survived long enough to witness the rise of another sapient species, it would still do no harm, because the New Humans (of whatever taxonomic origin) would likely never be able to decipher any kind of Old Human writing at all.

Therefore, to be against Islam is to be against those who carry, act out, and spread the memeplex that is Islam, and it's downright doublethink to claim otherwise. And yeah, that means actually being against a group of humans (oh, gasp, oh no! but humans are sacred! gasp gasp! Excuse me while I barf.)

Dalaran,

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make, or address, in your last post. You continue to misunderstand where I am coming from with this, you continue to make assumptions and presumptions. Your last three posts all fail to address the issue at hand. You continue to avoid giving your opinion directly on the issue.

I will repeat my questions, and nothing else of what you say interests me, except direct explicit responses:

The only relevant issue here (besides the actual topic of this thread, re Hitchens' article about the GZ mosque etc.) is the contents of Spirit Wolf's posts. She wrote:

"If a Muslim even damages a building in the West, or owned by Western interests, one of their cities gets firebombed so that it is obliviated, completely. Ensure no survivors."

Do you agree, or do you disagree, with her statement?

In the follow-up exchange with me, where she justified what she said in the above comment, she wrote to me:

"...And as far as "civilian populations" go, don't you understand the the Ummah itself is an army? All of them are "soldiers of Allah", and should be treated as such. And I ABSOLUTELY REFUSE to aplogise for anything I've ever said here. I mean what I say, and I say what I mean..."

Do you agree, or do you disagree, with her statement?

Finally, if you do agree with either or both of her statements quoted above, do you plan to post comments, in the future, expressing the same sentiments as did Spirit Wolf?

And I ask you, how do you suggest we solve the problem of them, then?

If they are not civilians, then what the hell is the problem?

And that's the point - they're NOT civilians, so your argument and your question is invalid.


Dalaran,

You've indirectly agreed with Spirit Wolf's claims about all Muslims being non-civilians and being members of the army of Allah. (Though you still haven't answered the question directly). But in context, the latter question is linked to the first question. You have also not answered the first question, the simple straightforward question of whether you agree or disagree with Spirit Wolf's statement:

"If a Muslim even damages a building in the West, or owned by Western interests, one of their cities gets firebombed so that it is obliviated, completely. Ensure no survivors."

Do you agree, or do you disagree, with her statement?

So what if I do? By the argument I presented above, Moslim majority and run cities in Muslim states are nothing more than vast military complexes. And those are perfectly legitimate wartime targets.

In fact, as far as military tactics goes, Mecca is Prime Target #1, and should be seen as such, because it is the military, social, and symbolic capital of Islam.

And if I do come out and directly say I agree, what the hell are YOU gonna do about it? Have me dragged into a Star Chamber?

And again:

How would YOU suggest we solve the problem of violent Muslims in the west, since the current approach (the kid-gloves and human-rights bullshit)appears to be useless?

Dalaran,

You continue to avoid answering the question that arose in this thread. You continue to attempt to drive this discussion on to other topics. We are (or, at least, I am) talking about the contents of Spirit Wolf's post. The topic in it concerned what to do if a Muslim "damages a building." Spirit Wolf says that if a Muslim "even" damages a building, then in response we should firebomb an entire city full of civilians, ensuring "no survivors."

This is not a difficult question. Let's try again. Spirit Wolf wrote:

"If a Muslim even damages a building in the West, or owned by Western interests, one of their cities gets firebombed so that it is obliviated, completely. Ensure no survivors."

Do you agree, or do you disagree, with her statement?

I've already answered your question, and if you can't figure that out by now, you're thicker than I thought you were.

And I ask you again: How would YOU handle the situation instead, considering current methods don't work against Muslims?

Dalaran,

No, you haven't answered my question about whether you agree or disagree with Spirit Wolf's statement. You continue to evade it and try to change the topic. (For that matter, you haven't even answered your own question directly and explicitly).

This is not a difficult question. Let's try again. Spirit Wolf wrote:

"If a Muslim even damages a building in the West, or owned by Western interests, one of their cities gets firebombed so that it is obliviated, completely. Ensure no survivors."

Do you agree, or do you disagree, with her statement?

What's so important that you keep harping on it?

And I ask you - if you are against the elimination of military complexes in response to attacks by enemy infiltrators/agents, then how do you suggest we solve the problem of these infiltrators who do not play by our rules, and will not stop until WE are defeated, ourselves?

Dalaran,

You continue to fabricate claims about my views. My interest here is simple and straightforward, but you are all over the place. If you are not going to answer directly whether or not you agree with Spirit Wolf's "building" comment, there is nothing further for us to discuss in this thread.

No, you're evading.

This whole thread started because someone made the claim that Islam cannot be eradicated.

Spirit Wolf disagreed, and responded with ways that it could be.

You jumped in, getting your panties in a knot over "civilians" being killed in retaliation to Muslim bomb attacks in civilian areas.

I replied with the military logic that negates your concerns about civilians. Only we in the west think of those terms. Muslims think in terms of "guilty" or "innocent", and all kufr are, by definition, guilty. I demonstrated how it could be considered that no Muslim is a civilian.

You kept asking me if I agree with the killing of civilians. I don't, but there are no civilians amongst Muslims, and so I can see S.W.'s suggestion being perfectly militarily acceptable in time of war (as we are in now.)

You keep saying I'm dodging the question - I say you're barking up the wrong tree, and have not paid any attention to anything I've written.

And I, in turn, have asked you to give a viable alternative to Spirit Wolf's suggestion, and you have not even attempted to do so.

And now you duck out, because you know there are no better solutions.

Dalaran,

You wrote: "You jumped in, getting your panties in a knot over "civilians" being killed in retaliation to Muslim bomb attacks in civilian areas."

Not true. Here's what Spirit Wolf actually said:

"If a Muslim even damages a building in the West, or owned by Western interests, one of their cities gets firebombed so that it is obliviated, completely. Ensure no survivors."

And eliminating enemy military complexes is fully acceptable as military strategy. Your point?

Dalaran,

I wasn't commenting on "eliminating enemy military complexes."

You say you consider civilian populations of Muslims, including women and children, to be members of the "army of Allah" and therefore military targets. I.e., you don't consider them civilians. That's your definition. As should be clear from my rejections of your (and Spirit Wolf's) position, that's not my definition.

As for your statement

"You jumped in, getting your panties in a knot over "civilians" being killed in retaliation to Muslim bomb attacks in civilian areas."

As I said, that's not true. You have fabricated that out of thin air. Spirit Wolf didn't say "Muslim bomb attacks in civilian areas." She referred to one Muslim "even" damaging a building. She advocated exterminating an entire city in a Muslim country if one Muslim in the West so much as damaged a building.

I was commenting on Spirit Wolf's post, which, among other things, said:

"If a Muslim even damages a building in the West, or owned by Western interests, one of their cities gets firebombed so that it is obliviated, completely. Ensure no survivors."

Dalaran, this exchange has shown to me that you are dishonest. And you are frankly an obsessive, nagging sleeve-tugger. You have a problem compartmentalizing, as shown by the fact that you keep posting about this thread in other subsequent threads. Your method here in this thread is to fabricate some provocative and false claims about your interlocutor to draw him back in to the "conversation."

If you have contributed any value to this site in your short time here as Dalaran, I must have missed it.

But this is it. I refuse to waste any more time attempting to converse with someone as dishonest as you.

"You say you consider civilian populations of Muslims, including women and children, to be members of the "army of Allah" and therefore military targets. I.e., you don't consider them civilians. That's your definition. As should be clear from my rejections of your (and Spirit Wolf's) position, that's not my definition."

Well, that's the exact problem I'm trying to illustrate that you refuse to see. You insist on sticking to YOUR definition, which is, in fact, the definition our leaders stick to, because these are the rules under which the West fights. Muslims do not recognize these rules; they have their own set of rules of war, and have no use for ours.

This means both sides are playing by different rules.


If you don't see the problem with that, try this: Get a board game, any classic board game will do - checkers, backgammon, parcheesi, anything. Then find an opponent. The rules are this: You, Kinana, must stick to the rules you love as they are printed, no exceptions, no fudging. Your opponent, however, can play by any rules he sees fit. Also, he can change his rules or reinterpret them as he sees fit as you go along.

Play, say, 10 games. Then come back and tell me who wins all the time.

That's what we're facing. That's what I'm pointing out. Spririt Wolf knows this as well. So does Spencer, and most other people on here. But no one is willing to turn Muslim rules onto Muslims. They get on just as goofy as you do.

As for "one person even damaging a building", that person is NOT a common street criminal, who ought to have right to get off on techicalities and plea deals and other _CIVILIAN_ lawyer games. That one Muslim was an enemy infiltrator, committing a military attack against Western property. The response Spirit Wolf suggested was in perfect line with this reasoning. After all, war is about one-upmanship - you kill one of ours, we kill ten of yours. Bust up our buildings, we'll bust your cities.

That's war, dear. Suck it up. Soldiers and weaponry ain't for building schools that the enemy doesn't want anyway.

And you say I'm dishonest? Hell, at least I'm honest enough to say that Islam needs humans, and you can't be against Islam without being against the humans who carry it and spread it and actualize it. THAT'S dishonest, to say "I hate Islam but have nothing against Muslims". No, I say I hate Islam and have the same feeling towards the humans who carry what is essentially a mental virus - they are vectors of Islam, and should be treated like enemies, like the disease vectors they are.

And if you don't like it, then I beg you - please tell me a "better way" to handle the vermin.

And as for my contribution, I've been here longer than you think. I haven't seen you add anything of value at all.

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