The Associated Press cracked the whip the other day, issuing a strict and specific set of guidelines, approved terminology, and "facts" to be used in its coverage of the Ground Zero mosque.
The AP's agenda is clear, and its policy statement amounts to a resolution to agitate in favor of the mosque and dismiss criticism and concerns about it out of hand.
It is an open and unapologetic statement of journalistic bias.
As Frank Gaffney says in what will be a handy companion to future AP reporting on the mosque, it amounts to a "Muslim Brotherhood narrative about the Islamic cultural center formerly known as the 'Ground Zero mosque'." A thorough deconstruction of AP's pravda, er, "truth," about the project is indeed in order. "Fact-Checking the AP 'Fact Check' On the Ground Zero Mosque," by Frank Gaffney for Big Journalism, August 20:
Stop the presses! This just in: The Associated Press "standards center" has issued a "staff advisory" on covering what is to be known from here on out as "the New York City mosque." From now on, the AP "staff" - and, therefore, everybody who still actually reads newspapers that still actually use the wire service's copy - is supposed to conform to what amounts to the Muslim Brotherhood narrative about the Islamic cultural center formerly known as the "Ground Zero mosque."
AP's Deputy Managing Editor for Standards and Production, Tom Kent, sent this "guidance" out to his colleagues, with inputs from Chad Roedemeier in the New York bureau and Terry Hunt in Washington: "We should continue to avoid the phrase 'Ground Zero mosque' or 'mosque at Ground Zero' on all platforms. (We've very rarely used this wording, except in slugs, though we sometimes see other news sources using the term.) The site of the proposed Islamic center and mosque is not at Ground Zero, but two blocks away in a busy commercial area. We should continue to say it's "near" Ground Zero, or two blocks away."
It was hit by landing gear from one of the hijacked planes. It was damaged by the instrument and the act of the attack, and is thus clearly part of the site of the attack. More on that here. As Gaffney observes, even Rauf seemed to grasp that:
Interestingly, among those who formerly used the now-proscribed descriptor "Ground Zero mosque" is none other than Feisal Abdul Rauf, its imam and chief promoter. He called it that even though the proposed venue has always been two blocks away from the World Trade Center site.
Perhaps Rauf used this moniker because his planned location for the mosque was part of the real estate attacked and damaged on 9/11 - the home of the Burlington Coat Factory until it was struck by a landing gear from a plane that struck one of the Twin Towers. Perhaps he used that term to brand his "Cordoba House" because body parts from the victims of those attacks have been found all over Lower Manhattan, including the old Burlington factory area, making it part of the hallowed ground.
Or perhaps, Imam Rauf called his project the Ground Zero mosque because he wanted to associate his 15-story, $100 million complex as closely as possible to the location where nearly 3,000 Americans and other innocent people - precisely because they were murdered there by people who wanted, as he does, to "bring shariah to America."
The last explanation would certainly conform to the triumphalist past practice of adherents to shariah, the barbaric, totalitarian political program that masquerades as a religion. Indeed, there is a tradition of constructing mosques at the site of previous Islamic conquests for example in Jerusalem, Istanbul and Cordoba, Spain. Yes, it was for Cordoba - where a Catholic church was converted into the world's third largest mosque by the Moorish conquerors of Spain - that Rauf wanted initially to name his Ground Zero mosque.
We can't get a clarification from Imam Rauf about precisely why he wanted to call his complex the Ground Zero mosque. He seems to be incommunicado as he is, just now, on an extended overseas stay, including stops in Malaysia and a U.S. taxpayer-underwritten trip to Middle East capitals. This foray could not be more convenient as the imam seeks to raise the nine-figure sum required to build his facility now being repackaged as simply an address: "Park 51."
In his absence, it has mostly fallen to Muslim Brotherhood operatives associated with fronts like the Council on American Islamic Relations and the Muslim American Society to tout the mosque. And all they want to do is get others - especially in the media and government - to drive home themes like those presented as "facts" by the Associated Press.
The Brotherhood has already succeeded brilliantly at this in the past. For example, the "guidelines" adopted in October 2001 by the Society of Professional Journalists explicitly call for its members to use spellings "preferred by the American Muslim Council, including 'Muhammad,' 'Quran,' and 'Makkah,' not 'Mecca' - at a time when the AMC was one of the most prominent Brotherhood fronts in the United States. [...]
It behooves us, therefore, to do a fact check on AP's "fact check":
AP: "A New York imam and his proposed mosque near ground zero are being demonized by political candidates -- mostly Republicans -- despite the fact that Islam is already very much a part of the World Trade Center neighborhood. And that Muslims pray inside the Pentagon, too, less than 80 feet from where terrorists attacked."
Before we get to Gaffney's response, there is one apparent difference at the Pentagon: That chapel is described as a space for all faiths, sounding rather like an airport chapel where, essentially, if you need a quiet place to pray to whomever it is you pray to, here's where you go. There are Bibles, and even a font for holy water, and there are reportedly Jewish and Hindu services, with Buddhist services possibly in the works as well. In other words, it is not a triumphalist Islamic structure intended to 1.) throw down a gauntlet on whether 9/11 had something to do with Islam, and 2.) force the national discussion on Islam into concluding it didn't, with dissenters branded as paranoid, unwashed bigots.
Gaffney continues:
THE FACTS: "Demonized" is a loaded term that denigrates the criticism Republicans and a growing number of Democrats - including Sen. Harry Reid, the Senate Majority Leader - have properly made of the site of the Ground Zero Mosque and, in some cases, of its Imam. The issue is not whether Muslims pray in proximity to Ground Zero - or the Pentagon's equally hallowed ground. Rather, it is whether they and the facility in which they pray are dedicated to the promotion of the seditious, anti-constitutional program of Shariah. If so, it is a problem. If not, not....
There is so much more. Read it all.
"the New York City mosque"
I don't know whether to laugh or cry. The Dhimmitude is appalling.
That has about as much truth in it as replacing "Islamic Jihad" with "man-caused disasters."
Funny how everything about Islam is so repellent we have to re-write it.
Doug Haggmans investigation of the who's who behind the mosque and the funding...A long report but well worth the effort...
'The following will provide clear documentation that the parties involved are not only Muslims, but disciples of Saul Alinsky, Margaret Sanger, George Soros and other proponents of global governance and the unification of religion under a global umbrella. This explains how and why many prominent socialists and progressives, Christians and Jews, Republicans and Democrats are proponents of this project'.
http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/25941
Pamela Geller got dissed something bad in the Guardian yesterday. Anybody read it?
We heard about it, but no one here reads pornography...
Fine, I say we find out how many mosques there are in New York City and just number the damned thing, like some of the schools:
"New York City Mosque #124" sounds real attractive, don't it?
Jacka$$es.
It's time to call for a BOYCOTT OF LOWER MANHATTEN if this mosque goes through.
This mega-mosque will be a second Mecca, a gathering site for the most hard core of Islamists, including many, many bloody-handed terrorists amongst them.
Any money from the Saudis to finance a mosque anywhere is like--yes, I'm going to say it--allowing nazi Germany to finance Hitler Youth centers in your country. It's already bad enough we once had native nazi "Bunds", and now have native muslims funding hate. We don't need hate funded from the source of hate. Besides, it should be illegal for a foreign theocracy to build such toxic edifices. The Saudis are a prima faci enemy, I don't care what the State Dept says.
When I saw this commentary, it reminded me of TownHall Magazines "Islamist Infiltration" and the Muslim Brotherhood.
Heres the line that shook me up:
"Phase III: Infiltrate America’s political and social institutions forming a shadow state; escalate conversions; manipulate mass media to remove language offensive to Islam; "
(NOTE: Associated press says NOT to use "Ground Zero Mosque" anymore)
Read more at our web site:
www.infideltaskforce.webs.com
"There is so much more. Read it all."
------------------
Boy I'll say there is! Folks don't skip reading the whole article, Gaffney nails it SO well.
Real Dhimmitude on show there. AP is now clearly revealed as Shariah-friendly.
Unless I missed it, they don't even begin to address the issue of where the $100M will come from and the misleading impression given by Rauf to the American media on that score.
"Pamela Geller got dissed something bad in the Guardian yesterday. Anybody read it?"
Sorry, we don't read idiotic Libtard trash.
Funny, on FOX this morning they were talking about Rauf and his travels and Daisy and her PR "heavy lifting" while the Rauf is away, then they mentioned, as if it's no BIG RED FLAG that they've only raised $9,000 so far for the building, and they need $100 MILLION!!
Sure! Not much more to raise, they've done "well so far," nothing to see here, folks, just move it along now, we've got a fluff piece on something else to do...
My grandparents, who struggled through the Depression and then WWII, and who were no-nonsense, salt of the earth REPUBLICANS, would be aghast if they were alive today and they heard something like that, and that the government and many in the media thought it was NO BIG DEAL and no one really cared where the $$ was coming from.
They would be asking "what in the hell happened to America?!"
This country is betraying not only its future but its past, and if it gets as bad as it could get, there will be no more past to remember; no more history.
Just ask the Buddhists from Afghanistan, or the Christians from Egypt or Syria. All gone down the memory-hole that Islam done dug for them.
THE ISLAMIZATION OF U.S MEDIA IS ALREADY IN EARNEST BY MAJORITY MUSLIM SHARE-HOLDERS FROM SAUDIS TO OTHER OIL-MONEY BIG-POCKETS.
WHENEVER THERE IS A NEWS ABOUT ISLAM AND MUSLIMS,THEY TRY THEIR BEST TO PORTRAY IT IN A WATERED-DOWN NATURE OR DECEPTIVE METHOD.
THE WEST AND THE REST OF NON-MUSLIM WORLD IS FAST GOING DOWN TOWARD THE PATH OF ISLAMIZATION AND SELF-DESTRUCTION.
Bingo! Give that poster the big stuffed Mohammad Bear!
I read it.
Renowned artist, Marc Richard Rubin, and I were in NYC on June 6 at the Stop the Mosque rally with his 7ft x 14ft
masterwork "Atrocity 911" which Marc painted as at the request of his life-long friend who lives 2 blocks from WTC. She asked him to "Paint this atrocity so no one will ever forget".
Al-Jazeera turned their camera from the painting as they were interviewing a raging Imam Rauf. That is the power of art and images. An Israeli woman translated to us Rauf's words from Arabic: " "I am the director of the mosque.(not the community center as they like to claim) It will be a living center for young men from Saudi Arabia and other Muslim countries..."
We wheeled "Atrocity 911" through the streets of lower Manhattan on June 8. Tens of thousands of people saw the painting. Military and ex-military, NYPD, NYFD, Iranian-Americans, Syrian-Americans, and native New Yorkers, they ALL thanked the artist. Many bumped knuckles. Many had tears in their eyes. The painting HEALS and UNITES people. To those who asked "why isn't this painting in a museum?" the answer is "its not politically correct".
Marc painted "Atrocity 911" for the people and we will take it again to the streets of Manhattan on Sept 11. One cannot argue with a truthful image. Become a Facebook Fan of "Atrocity 911" at
Atrocity 911 Painting
Renowned artist, Marc Richard Rubin, and I were in NYC on June 6 at the Stop the Mosque rally with his 7ft x 14ft
masterwork "Atrocity 911" which Marc painted as at the request of his life-long friend who lives 2 blocks from WTC. She asked him to "Paint this atrocity so no one will ever forget".
Al-Jazeera turned their camera from the painting as they were interviewing a raging Imam Rauf. That is the power of art and images. An Israeli woman translated to us Rauf's words from Arabic: " "I am the director of the mosque.(not the community center as they like to claim) It will be a living center for young men from Saudi Arabia and other Muslim countries..."
We wheeled "Atrocity 911" through the streets of lower Manhattan on June 8. Tens of thousands of people saw the painting. Military and ex-military, NYPD, NYFD, Iranian-Americans, Syrian-Americans, and native New Yorkers, they ALL thanked the artist. Many bumped knuckles. Many had tears in their eyes. The painting HEALS and UNITES people. To those who asked "why isn't this painting in a museum?" the answer is "its not politically correct".
Marc painted "Atrocity 911" for the people and we will take it again to the streets of Manhattan on Sept 11. One cannot argue with a truthful image. Become a Facebook Fan of "Atrocity 911" and see pictures of the painting in lower Manhattan and in front of the proposed mosque at
Atrocity 911 Painting
For Sun Tzu said:
"If you know the enemy and know yourself you need not fear the results of a hundred battles."
In other words: Gotta keep on top of the Libtard propaganda, too.
Renowned artist, Marc Richard Rubin, and I were in NYC on June 6 at the Stop the Mosque rally with his 7ft x 14ft
masterwork "Atrocity 911" which Marc painted as at the request of his life-long friend who lives 2 blocks from WTC. She asked him to "Paint this atrocity so no one will ever forget".
Al-Jazeera turned their camera from the painting as they were interviewing a raging Imam Rauf. That is the power of art and images. An Israeli woman translated to us Rauf's words from Arabic: " "I am the director of the mosque.(not the community center as they like to claim) It will be a living center for young men from Saudi Arabia and other Muslim countries..."
We wheeled "Atrocity 911" through the streets of lower Manhattan on June 8. Tens of thousands of people saw the painting. Military and ex-military, NYPD, NYFD, Iranian-Americans, Syrian-Americans, and native New Yorkers, they ALL thanked the artist. Many bumped knuckles. Many had tears in their eyes. The painting HEALS and UNITES people. To those who asked "why isn't this painting in a museum?" the answer is "its not politically correct".
Marc painted "Atrocity 911" for the people and we will take it again to the streets of Manhattan on Sept 11. One cannot argue with a truthful image. Become a Facebook Fan of "Atrocity 911" and see pictures of the painting in lower Manhattan and in front of the proposed mosque at
Atrocity 911 Painting
Perhaps it sound be called the "Muslim Victory Mosque."
sorry for the double post---the submit button hung up
Pamela Geller got dissed something bad in the Guardian yesterday. Anybody read it?
You are getting dissed rather atrociously in JW each time you present us with yet another sample of Islamic idiocy. Have you noticed that?
Actually, the characterization that some of us "demonize" the proposed mosque is quite accurate. For those of us critics who are Christian and believe that viciously anti-Christian entities or ideas are demons or demonic, "demonize" is a very appropriate description. I would not personally shy away from that description. However I understand that many less literal Christians, Jews, Hindus, Bhuddists, Shinto, deists, agnostics, and aetheists choose to abhor that mosque at that location for many other very legitimate reasons.
Deep, beautiful, Eleanor
Yes, perforce we endeavor to know the enemy, and also we know what we ourselves stand for. Instead of what some enemies stand for and other enemies are too ignorant or prejudiced to see.
Further to what Thomas and Eleanor said:
So Pamela got "dissed" in the "Grauniad." I read it, and sure, it hurts to see one of your allies -- let alone someone like Pamela who has done so much for the cause, and has stood by us at Jihad Watch for years -- so flagrantly slandered and, indeed, demonized.
But does it discourage us? Absolutely not. What the "Grunard" (if you're not aware, the Guardian's past reputation for typos has earned it some nicknames over the years) is really doing is proving our point: Muslims and "illiberal Liberals" find common cause in attempting to silence those who disagree with them at any cost, even while singing the praises of "free speech" where it serves their interests.
OT...And you people think Islam is a problem...This is an actual call to our local sheriffs office...I'm just sharing this to lighten things up a little...
At 12:32 p.m., a caller reported steroid-using body-builder midgets from Reno had beaten up the caller's son and might have killed him.
Midgets from Fulton Avenue had been following and trying to poison the caller. The body-builder and the lead female midget, who the caller reported as being “really violent,” allegedly had been driving the caller's truck. The caller wanted the Sheriff's Office to activate the SWAT team.
Building of the Great Mosque of Aleppo in Syria began about 715 AD. Naturally it was built on land confiscated from the Kaffirs. The plot of land had been the cemetery of the Byzantine Cathedral of Saint Helena. Building a mosque on a graveyard ? Nobody would do that would they ?
The "New York City Mosque", eh? ...which is not to be confused with the other 100 mosques that are already in existence in New York City today, right? ...oh brother! Looky here, everyone, AP no longer cares about truth in journalism. Sorry, but this particular mosque will forever be thought of as the Ground Zero/Cordoba House mosque.
"The site of the proposed Islamic center and mosque is not at Ground Zero, but two blocks away in a busy commercial area. We should continue to say it's 'near' Ground Zero, or two blocks away."
Ahem, 60 steps to be exact ...
Yes, the mosque will indeed be NEAR Ground Zero, which is too near for the majority of Americans standing against this proposed project. And I am still confident that the majority will rule in this situation, so it aint over till the fat lady sings.
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/08/20/real-americans-please-stand-up/
There are so many things wrong with Dick's thinking here starting with the call for real Americans (I guess the 30% in favor of the Mosque). While I hardly take the position that Islam is irredeemably broken and that the majority of American Muslims go along with either the Sharification of the US or support of anti-Liberal global terror, the former talk show host intentionally misses the point as most media spin does. I suspect he misses the point intentionally.
Would Americans have erected a Shinto welcome center at Pearl Harbor DURING WORLD WAR 2? Is it really just a tiny minority in Islam that supports terror, considers non Muslims lesser people, blames the US for 9/11 and hides behind religious freedom to shield Islam from refusing to stand up to its leadership? I wonder if Dick has ever read Memri.
Last night I heard repeated the argument against collective responsibility and the innuendos that McVeigh and others including the KKK were Christian Soldiers. This is just absurd. I hate to break to to Dick, but there IS a collective responsibility here is so far as Islam's message does contain a political message (jihad supported by clerical decree) and certain Islamic views that run counter to the world's. Jews no longer support the idea of "an eye for an eye". Here, one may have a right to spout the nonsense of the KKK (which is not supported by Christian leadership)to a point, but they cannot build a KKK welcome center next to the Holocaust Museum in Washington DC, or one next to the Martin Luther Jr. center.
Of course most American Muslims follow a religious interpretation of the Koran which they bend into a consistency with our Constitution. I know Muslims and I say this from direct observation. Let to their own impulses, all people have a common hierarchy of needs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs
We have no right to stop Muslims, Jews, Christians etc. from worshiping and expressing their religious feelings. But until the Muslim community really stands up to the multitude of clerical declarations coming from Islamic leadership overseas (and even from certain Muslim groups here all of which represent the directors of Islam), real Americans will continue to see this mosque issue in the light of an ongoing war, not in the light of religious expression. Americans have no tolerance for the abuse of women, the idea of superiority, the institutionalized hatred of Jews and the freedoms of liberty. Dick would have us suspend common sense and biological prerogative.
And Dick is hardly alone: http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2010/08/poll-shows-more-americans-think-obama-is-a-muslim-washpost.html Here we see a more sophisticated warping of reality.
I suggest you comb the articles and see how deep these skewed views run.......
sorry about the typos, but you get the gist....
"El Cid vs. the Mosque"
-a counter to Islamic 'Cordoba' plan for Ground Zero Mosque
http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2010/08/el-cid-versus-mosque-part-2.html#readfurther
I'd be a bit worried if I wasn't dissed in the Grauniad! LOL It's a nicely designed newspaper but it has a bad record of cosying up to tyrants and totalitarians.
Ahem, 60 steps to be exact ...
---------
Sorry Champ, I love ya but I take exception even to that (and I'm not yelling at you I'm just yelling with indignation at the world):
The site is not NEAR Ground Zero IT IS GROUND ZERO! The blood of patriots splashed that building as the body parts that were recovered there can mutely affirm!
Do these people have ANY idea what they are doing to the families of the victims by SPLITTING HAIRS like this and trying to claim, in order to protect MONSTERS who have smiley-faces drawn over their snarls, that because the Mosque site is not technically within the very footprint of the Towers that somehow it's NOT Ground Zero, therefore making it quite alright to fudge it and completely disregard HISTORY?!
How LOW can they go? Are they out there with tape measures and yard sticks??
It's absolutely sickening.
My brother was standing one mile away when those Towers went down, and he said that he felt that if he'd been any closer, he would have been in real danger of being hit with more than just the dust he was hit with.
"Near" Ground Zero, that's just an infuriating insult.
Supplementary analysis:
Plus two of Hugh's best:-
1.)
"Fitzgerald: The New York Times, and That Business At the Cathedral In Cordoba"
http://www.jihadwatch.org/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/br0nc0s/managed-mt/mt-search.cgi?search=nyt+cordoba&IncludeBlogs=1&limit=20
2.)
"Fitzgerald: What really happened in 1492"
http://www.jihadwatch.org/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/br0nc0s/managed-mt/mt-search.cgi?search=1492&IncludeBlogs=1&limit=20
The latest meme going around is that this is not really a mosque/there's no mosque planned to be built in the building, and therefore calling it the Ground Zero Mosque is misleading. (You know, more lies from the Islamophobes and bigots.)
Last I heard there was indeed a mosque planned for the building. But with all the (often conflicting) info flying back and forth, I am getting lost as to the facts here!
Can anyone point me to the correct information? I need to have my facts straight when I get into discussions. Thanks.
"The site is not NEAR Ground Zero IT IS GROUND ZERO! The blood of patriots splashed that building as the body parts that were recovered there can mutely affirm!"
I wholly agree, El ...I was simply responding to Frank Gaffey's use of the word "near" from his own article:
"The site of the proposed Islamic center and mosque is not at Ground Zero, but two blocks away in a busy commercial area. We should continue to say it's "near" Ground Zero, or two blocks away." -- headline
Well let's see, there was a story here at JW recently where US News and World Report likened the the mosque element of the "community center" to the significance of a Walgreens in the Empire State Building, so that's one far-end of the spectrum "view!"
I suppose, in figuring out square-footage dimensions compared, that would mean that the mosque in the "community center" will be roughly 1' square, about the dimensions of a microwave?
I don't know, any architects or contractors around to weigh in?
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/08/us-news-and-world-report-likens-islamic-supremacist-mega-mosque-at-ground-zero-to-walgreens.html
I think you meant to write, "Sorry, Frank, I love ya but" ...
:)
Frank should be so lucky! :D
Et tu, AP
Bit like Reuters and the doctored photos.
I wholly agree, El ...I was simply responding to Frank Gaffey's use of the word "near" from his own article:
------------
At this point, I'm just against any view that places Ground Zero outside of any of the "areas of death and destruction."
Innocent people, as a result of enemy actions, died in various spots, on all sides of the Towers, and many hundreds of feet from the Towers, including at the mosque site, as Imam Rauf eagerly promoted early on.
All he is doing is moongod-walking back his statements faster than Muslim Jackson ever could have, and it's utterly reprehensible; especially since the MSM and the Establishment are helping him do it.
I agree, and imo, if it were possible, the imam would build a mosque smack-dab in the middle of Ground Zero ...
(In hushed, whisper voice): A little bird told me that "Imam Ralph" admits to just that in an upcoming Installment of "The Imam Ralph Diaries" exclusively on Eleanor Ruth's Blog! If you miss it, Allah will approve, so don't ya dare miss it!!
:D
I wrote to AP yesterday about this, asked them if they were taking a page from Chinese journalism. I also told them they were a day late and a dollar short, because it's firmly embedded in our minds as the Ground Zero mosque, and any self censorship on their part isn't going to change that.
It's appalling.
Always Propaganda for the Guardian of lies.
It takes a special person with a strong Stomach to wade through that cesspool on our behalf.
Wow, that's some scary stuff! Most people will dismiss it as another wild conspiracy theory but it all sounds entirely credible to me. The U.N. is the most insidious, evil, dangerous organization on the planet and it's owned and operated by muslims, funded by the American taxpayer. I don't know what the globalist megalomaniacs hope to accomplish but if it will weaken AMerica, Obama's all for it. America is being assaulted from every direction while our brave soldiers are fighting and dying for nothing in islamic hellholes. It is depressing and heartbreaking. Meanwhile, Americans snooze.
The news media are as despicable as the U.N. for misleading the public and witholding crucial information. They are all but having apoplectic fits on MSNBC and CNN at the opposition to this mosque and seem to be incredulous that 70% of the American people, including many politicians, are strongly against it. I heard one of them make the comment: "We must convince Americans that they are wrong". Can you imagine?! What has journalism come to in America?
"But until the Muslim community really stands up to the multitude of clerical declarations coming from Islamic leadership overseas"
Yah, even though those clerics view us as heritics and many of their followers want to kill us.
I'll still be personally responsible for anyhing that any Muslim says anywhere in the world at any time.
That's because any Muslim who speaks out against the violence and hatred taught in the Koran IS a heretic!
Don't get me wrong, I'm thankful when Muslims do stand up against hatred and violence, because the threats against them from their own co-religionists are very real. But that fact only serves to emphasize the intolerant teachings inherent within Islam - the very thing they are protesting against!
Islam is a cruel ideology, toward believers and unbelievers alike.
Please read the following, then verify its facts with a simple online search, to find out what happened when Islamic supremacists built a large mosque next to one of Christendom's most hallowed spots in Nazareth, Israel:
http://www.wrmea.com/archives/Jan_Feb_2000/0002065.html
Then, ask yourselves the following question:
Can we expect the same repercussions elsewhwere?
Now Muslim Miss USA says DON'T build mosque near Ground Zero
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1305018/Now-Muslim-Miss-USA-says-DONT-build-mosque-near-Ground-Zero.html#ixzz0xHtsUcIE
The Australian msm is doing the same, persuading us that opposing the mosque is bigotry, etc. Disgraceful.
Given the "choices" that Islam is obliged to give infidel countries, Americans should realize that if the mosque is successfully opposed there will be a need for extra vigilance because Muslims wil feel justified in inflicting violence. We are required to convert, submit to dhimmitude, or make ready for war; we all know that. And this mosque is a big deal: Muslims will lose face in a big way if their plan is thwarted.
Not trying to be negative, but don't forget: they don't operate like we do, and I think we can assume they will not be gracious in defeat, if it should occur.
Why not become a Buddhist, Christian, Zoroastrian, Wicca person, Rastafarian, atheist or agnostic (among others)? It would be so much less bother. After all, how many of the named above have adherents who have to speak out against violence by their fellow believers (or non-believers) on a constant basis? Get my drift? Why not give up the ghost? I mean, after all, what's the damn point?
Your belief system is either true or not true. If the former, then this is a very creepy universe and Allah is an Orwellian tyrant on a mega-scale (and so time to emulate Prometheus). If not true, then you've been fooled super big time. Either way Islam is a cosmic loser. Get my drift?
Twerps like Yusuf like being part of a bully-religion, even as they act coy about its nastiness. How many weak Muslim men have I met; they have no power in their culture but have the sad illusion of power through association with Islam's extortionists. So they deny they were forced into it by birth and pretend it is their own choice, and/or latch onto aspects of its power like limpets, such as by becoming Islamic "scholars".
" Yah, even those clerics view us as heretics and many of their followers want to kill us ".
What continues to amaze me about you ( and other Muslims like you, who frequent this site ), is the fact that you haven't dropped Islam like a hot potato.
You have, at your finger tips, as vast amount of information that tells you the truth about Mohammad, and Islam...
Wellington hit the nail dead on.
ANY religion that encourages murder and mayhem (and don't tell me that only certain sects of Islam do ), should be denounced, condemned, and fought against.
I'll still be personally responsible for anyhing that any Muslim says anywhere in the world at any time.Oh Yusuf. That is mighty generous of you but does that mean you are the Caliph? I thought the apologists on the WatchThis site were adamant that Islam was not a monolithic movement but you seem to assume it is. Either that or you are taking on an awesome responsibility there buddy.
The real problem with Islam is their Sharia. Islam itself, miserable that it is, a 7th century Warlord's ideology, deceitful and idiotic as it is, is benign without its Sharia. Jihad is just a vehicle to bring about Sharia. But Sharia is the real obstacle to all Muslim countries, why they are so regressive and backwards. Sharia keeps them rooted to a dehumanizing primitive barbarism that locks them forever enslaved to Mohammed's delusional acromegalic madness. Sharia is against our rule of law and Constitutional government, against democracy, and against equality of human rights. Jettison Sharia, and Islam could learn to coexist, however uncomfortably, with modern civilization. But Sharia, which is NOT protected by the First Amendment, is keeping Muslims backwards, and unassimilated. Get rid of Sharia, and maybe Islam has a chance to join the rest of human progress. But with it, they are doomed to remain beggars for the rest of the time Islam still exists, until it finally, mercifully goes extinct. With modern communications and ease of travel, this is only a matter of time. The Associated Press 'politically correct egalitarianism' nonsense aside, this is the real issue. Pay attention AP news. Zero in on Sharia to stop the Ground Zero mosque.
"It was hit by landing gear from one of the hijacked planes. It was damaged by the instrument and the act of the attack, and is thus clearly part of the site of the attack"
Let's follow this one all the way out...
The night of and the day after 911, the wind carried clouds of dust into the Downtown, Ft Greene sections of Brooklyn, it coated EVERYTHING, used two full asthma inhalers in the 1st WEEK. So if we follow the quoted line of reasoning, would we also say that if the Cordoba project were to have been proposed for BROOKLYN, would the fact that a quantifiable portion of the former WTC is now in Brooklyn, would we be "ok" with it? Well...?
"Yes, it was for Cordoba - where a Catholic church was converted into the world's third largest mosque by the Moorish conquerors"
Welcome to NYC where WE turn Catholic Cathedrals in to...
NIGHTCLUBS!!! LOL!!!
www.websterhall.com
Allah Bless America!!!
So if we follow the quoted line of reasoning, would we also say that if the Cordoba project were to have been proposed for BROOKLYN, would the fact that a quantifiable portion of the former WTC is now in Brooklyn, would we be "ok" with it? Well...?
You are of course right. No mosque should be permitted in ANY place in America. Still, one has to start somewhere and it is only logical that Ground Zero should be the starting place.
With God’s help it will be followed by Ground One- Manhattan, Ground Two-New York (incl. Brooklyn)and Ground Three – America.
Allah Bless America!!!
In the meantime let's pray that God may keep Allah properly curbed and muzzled in safe distance from America.
It's always a pleasure to witness how willing folks are to open their mouths and shove their feet in, clear to the kneee...
Thank you Thommy for your efforts in maintaining that fine tradition, you are a credit to your lynch mob!!!
Allah Bless America!!!
"Protesters target mosque near Ground Zero"
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2010/08/22/Protesters-target-mosque-near-Ground-Zero/UPI-79281282480479
Every major paper is doing this. Several weeks ago, the Chicago Tribune published a sickening human-interest feature about a support group for "Arab" (read, Muslim) women. The writer interviewed a Muslim who was portrayed as this very refined woman dropped into the middle of our barbaric society and trying to cope--even though her neighbor ignored her in public for wearing hijab (which this lady never wore until after she had moved to the US--clearly, a political statement).
The article was sickening on so many levels. I tried to post to the online blog, to point out some of the more glaring inconsistencies, but the blog had been removed. The Trib never does that. I emailed the editor to ask why there was no feedback form, and they replied that they had to take it down because people had posted so many "abusive" comments.
I doubt that they were deluged with thousands of vicious little comments immediately after the paper came out that morning. I mean, really. (I also sent a letter to the print editorial column, but nothing was ever published by anyone in regards to this story.)
If what they said about the comments is true, the Trib's heavy-handed effort to "humanize" Islam failed, and that's a good thing.
But what's NOT so good is this blatant manipulation of the Trib's readers.
Right now they're publishing letter after letter lauding the Ground Zero mosque plans. It appears that an overwhleming number of readers just love the idea. I wonder if those letters are trule representative, or if they're just printing a tiny percentage of "positive" letters while ignoring mountains of critical letters.
(If you want to read the article about this woman, I put the story on my blog -- http://maryesterhammer-fic.blogspot.com/)
Welcome to NYC where WE turn Catholic Cathedrals in to...
NIGHTCLUBS!!! LOL!!!
That's really "dank" Dank! I mean that in street talk "dank", not the 'musty dark' version. - LOL
Yeah, we have the freedom to turn churches, and mosques, into nightclubs.
It's always a pleasure to witness how willing folks are to open their mouths and shove their feet in, clear to the kneee...
It’s nothing compared to a pleasure to witness folks who open their mouth after having shoved their head in, clear to the neck…
…, you are a credit to your lynch mob!!!
You are talking about lynching mobs? Your mob regularly lynches Christians and Buddhists in Pukistan, Egypt, Sudan Nigeria, Thailand, India and Indonesia …and some years ago in New York, London and Madrid. Countless thousands of them.
Have you, or anyone you know have been lynched by “my lynch mob” yet?
Allah Bless America!!!
It may be too late. I heard rumours American police got an order to arrest Allah as soon as he tries to bless America.
There is merit in what you assert, Battle_of_Tours, and it mirrors the thinking of many others, folks like Andrew McCarthy and Daniel Pipes, who think the real problem with Islam is Sharia. Pipes' approach, specifically, is to maintain that much of Sharia is only applicable to 7th-century Arabia and that so-called radical Muslims err when wanting to apply all of Sharia in our times. Hence, Pipes is able to conclude that there is a good Islam lurking out there and only bits and pieces of Sharia should still be operative.
I, however, must ultimately disagree with this somewhat sanguine assessment that Sharia is the real (and only) problem. I would assert that there are still so many troubling aspects that can be found in the Koran and in Mohammed's life that these alone, without Sharia (if indeed that is possible), still add up to a prescription for violence, perversion and intolerance in ways simply not found in other major faiths' doctrines. In short, Islam is fundamentally flawed to its very core and Mohammed is not a man that sensible and knowledgeable people can admire. The whole damn religion has got to go. And, of course, this presents a problem on an even greater scale than just getting rid of most or all of Sharia. Hell of a lot of trouble ahead.
Americans are being played and the scam is working:
http://pajamasmedia.com/claudiarosett/imam-feisals-trip-of-great-importance-we-have-a-sighting-in-bahrain/
The Koran ,as a text urging Muslims to kill jews,christians,infidels,apostates from islam,females that "dishonored" their family ,should be sued and brought to trial as barbaric,inhuman,incompatibe with human rights,unconstitutional,and should not be preached in the Mosques anywhere in the World.
With this verdict islam will collapse around the world
Have 1 billion of Korans distributed to the women in the world to learn the slavery and humiliation the women live under islam so they will learn what's in store for them and denounce it.Islam without women will no longer exist.
Visit"muslims against sharia" to read all 434 pages of the Koran or a summary of 12 pages with all the barbaric cruel jihadist verses in it.
hey Wellington,
I agree with you totally that it is Islam that is the problem - not Sharia. It is not Sharia that makes Islam what it is, but it is Islam that can’t BUT bring forth Sharia and Sharia only. There is a deep logical, even “organic”, connection between the two. Islam with a legal system that had evolved differently from Sharia would be as incoherent as Sharia-like thing emerging from Christianity.
Those who hope Islam, when sufficiently pressed, may one day shed its unpleasant feature of Sharia are guilty of stubbornly avoiding the truth about Islam’s most profound otherness. The otherness that begun the day it replaced the Natural Law written in the heart of man with the sadistic ravings of Mohummad.
Christianity, Judaism, or Buddhism’s don’t contradict the Natural Law. On the contrary - they prove and argue their own moral legitimacy by adherence to the Natural Law.
But Islam is profoundly different. To expect it produce anything but Sharia is as reasonable as expecting a cactus one day would yield figs if correctly nurtured.
When Daniel Pipes famously wrote some years ago that radical Islam is a problem while moderate Islam is a solution I sent in a letter arguing that contrary to the mutually shaping relation between Christianity and Christians there is no mutuality between Islam and Muslims as it is prevented by the fact that koran is the absolutely unalterable word of allah. Therefore Islam shapes muslims and never the other way round. They can only revolt against it.
Visit"muslims against sharia" to read all 434 pages of the Koran or a summary of 12 pages with all the barbaric cruel jihadist verses in it.
Thanks leonidas, I checked the site, "Muslims against Sharia" and counted the pages (using print preview) and found 12 pages of 'violent' verses that promote "divisiveness and religious hatred, bigotry and discrimination" vs. 113 pages of the full Koran. That's a 10.6% ratio of violence in the texts. I suspect it may actually be higher, but we get the idea. Cut out that 10.6% and we may have the start of some sort of Islamic 'Reformation' similar to our Protestant Reformation four centuries ago. Too much to hope for?
Wellington, I agree Islam's problems are deeper than just Sharia, but it is their Sharia law's ambitions to usurp our laws that is the biggest problem for us; their internal problems with Islam, as shown above, can be dealt with... by them. We don't care what they think of us, as long as they don't act on it... like bringing Sharia to our shores.
Cut out that 10.6% and we may have the start of some sort of Islamic 'Reformation' similar to our Protestant Reformation four centuries ago.
Too much to hope for?
Yes!
There is absolutely no similarity between the protestant reformation and the "islamic reformation" of the sort you are envisioning.
They would be brought about by a completely different set of conditions and reasons and aimed at completely different goals.
Hello, Thomas_h. I see the eventual defeat of Islam coming in stages. It is unrealistic to think that Islam can be assigned to oblivion within a short period of time. Daniel Pipes' approach, which nine years ago or so virutally no politician in the West was in accord with, is now the position of prominent political figures like Newt Gingrich, to wit, that Sharia is the problem and not Islam itself. This is a step in the right direction to be sure but not enough of course, as you noted.
I have to wonder where the shrewder and bolder politicians will be a decade from now. My guess is that only holding Sharia up for condemnation will no longer be considered sufficient. This is understandable, though it is sometimes irritating that more folks don't cut to the quick sooner rather than later, but folks in general have to be talked into a new idea in increments. The new idea here, of course, is that mankind got a major religion that is wicked and totalitarian (ridiculous too). This is slowly sinking into the body politic of one Western nation after another, but in stages as I already mentioned.
Of course, some might with reason say that we can't wait that long, but I think we can and, besides, it's truly the only realistic way. Yes, there will be much unnecessary bloodshed because Islam is still very much alive, but eventually man's quest not to be told what to do or else will eventually manifest itself again and then Islam's a goner for good, assigned to marginal status at best, like Neo-Nazism and Marxism, and looked upon as a religion for losers, creeps and the confused.
Hope you and yours are doing well. Take care, Thomas.
Brilliant, as usual, Wellington....the whole problem is Islam.....and sharia is just part of the religion....sort of like how the ten commandments are part of the Holy Scriptures.
Islam must be stopped. But, first, we need adddress the issues at hand, most notably, the Ground Zero mosque....I am encouraged by the groundswell of support to the opposition of erecting this evil and ugly edifice....we must not allow this horrid mosque to exist.
History is peppered with account after account of mosques being built over a fallen enemy's land...it is a symbol of triumph over one's enemies. Reminds me of what dogs do to mark "their" territories.
I couldn't imagine being an editor journalist or newspaper production artist and having to knowingly lie to the public. This really does amount to spiritual and emotional blackmail.I sometimes wonder who I should be more angry with, our own American business people or prehistoric mozoids. Sounds as if there is a lot of overlapping of standards here.
Not even a close call, ElizaDoolittle. The vast majority (virtually all) of American business people do not want to force you to believe as they might (contra Muslims). Moreover, capitalism has produced the greatest affluence for the greatest number of people of any economic system in history (N.B., no socialistic system has ever worked on its own; to the extent that such a system has worked it has parasitically fed off a previously existent capitalistic society, e.g., Sweden). As long as capitalism is infused with a proper moral order (you can eliminate Sharia here) and respect for a decent legal system (again you can nix Sharia), it is by far the most efficacious economic system ever developed by man. Primarily this is due to the tremendous amount of liberty infused into the capitalistic framework.
Also, methinks your anger is misplaced. The real problem in free and democratic societies is not "business people." No, it's career politicians who have the police power on their side to enforce their will (unlike "business people") and who rarely comprehend the wisdom of Thomas Jefferson's maxim that most bad government results from too much government. Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae are illustrative of this Jeffersonian truth just these past few years or so a la the mortgage meltdown. Reconsider things, assuming you are able. Ponder first and foremost that there is almost no "overlapping" at all, as you stated.
Just saw the US news on Sky...brilliant demo in Lower Manhattan. Great!
No mention of Robert Spencer or Pamela Geller. But some nice extracts from construction workers and relatives of deceased. Was a pretty balanced report I saw - more so than we might expect in the UK.
Thomas Pellow
the news of that particular rally which you mention, got all the way to 'Down Under'.
For what did I see when I checked our Aussie ABC news online, to check the progress of the vote-count from our federal election that took place this Saturday last?
Lo and behold, a story about a rally against the proposed Ground Zero mosque!
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/08/23/2990244.htm?section=justin
'Mosque plan sparks New York rallies'.
You'll notice if you follow my link that the Aussie report - unlike the report you linked - actually quotes from some of the placards verbatim. And the ones from those against the mosque, that it chooses to quote, are quite interesting.
I went on Atlas Shrugs and Pamela was getting a bit prima-donnish about it making clear it was nothing to do with her! So who organised it? Was it trade unionists? Perhaps that would explain her discomfort since trade unions are the v. antithesis of Ayn-Randianism! LOL
I am all for a broad church anti-Shariah movement - the more the merrier... :)
I feel the same way.
'Surprise' protests like this one that just happened are *excellent*.
They show that the word has spread, and continues to spread. The folks who did this particular protest knew about sharia, and that it was bad news. They knew that the mosque will be 'read' by many Muslims as a 'victory' marker, a mosque de triomphe. They knew about Muslim non-reciprocity. They knew all that *without* necessarily being formally signed up with SIOA or ACT for America or anyone else.
Here's hoping there are protests against the mosque *next* weekend as well. And the next. Each one raises awareness. Each one ups the pressure. Think snowball effect.
The rally on September 11 should be HUUUGE.
And the rallies that come *afterward* should be even bigger.
"Don't let Islam mark a 'victory' with a Mosque" (one of the placards carried on the August 22 rally).
Wellington, and Thomas-H, your post-exchange helped me further in my struggle to comprehend what it is democracy-loyalists are dealing with in Islam and how most realistically to deal with it.
Thomas-H's remark about the doctrinal perfect immutability making it impossible for Muslims to reform Islam, and only possible for them to revolt against struck me as very spot on.
But still, as you asserted, it is also the public opinion of citizens of secular democracies and the eventually following this public opinion politicians that has to be considered.
I understand that Islam is more problematic than just it's shariah component and that Daniel Pipes" moderate Islam is the solution" is just inaccurate and lacking.
And" further down the road", in a matter of speaking, there is also the well know discussion about whether or not Geert Wilders and Robert Spencer and others are right about being against Islam and not against Muslims. This pertains in my opinion a lot to whether or not we and then the public and then politicians can or cannot hold Muslims accountable for their sheer choice for their faith/ ideology.
But I too find Daniel Pipes and then Geert Wilders/ Robert Spencer are very valuable in at least evolving the public opinion and hence the politicians' positions on Islam and Democracy into the right direction, towards a global victory of the Democratic system of government over the Islamic one. I think the competition between those 2 should be seen not as just a matter of current democratic nations but worldwide.
With the exception of the desired existence of such Islamic nations that have agreed to take in all of democratic nations unwanted theocracy-loyalists and to let go of all really democracy-loyalists among its own citizens. (Who of course must be taken back if after careful scrutiny are found to be really theocracy-loyalists). In an ideal future, that is.
the "guidelines" adopted in October 2001 by the Society of Professional Journalists explicitly call for its members to use spellings "preferred by the American Muslim Council, including 'Muhammad,' 'Quran,' and 'Makkah,' not 'Mecca'...
Mo-Hammed. Ko-Ran. Ha-Deeth. Mek-ka. Screw off to all Moslems, apologize to us for your behavior, for your beliefs, for, well, being Moslem.
*** 8:12 ***
I'm not sure I accept your apologies. I question your sincerity.