"I see privilege being accorded to Islam, as against situations in which the civil authorities have de-privileged Christianity and Judaism"

The Optimistic Conservative has an illuminating take on the Ground Zero mega-mosque and how Islamic supremacists gradually assert themselves ever more strongly. "God and Man at Ground Zero," by The Optimistic Conservative, August 13 (thanks to Doris):

Here's my bottom-line problem with the concatenation of events and trends surrounding the Ground Zero mosque: I see privilege being accorded to Islam, as against situations in which the civil authorities have de-privileged Christianity and Judaism. The reflexive animus against America's traditional major religions will be recognizable, in what I describe below, to every conservative. Yet in a situation where a very large group of Americans objects to the placement of a particular mosque, government authorities not only don't privilege the objectors, they castigate them as bigots and override their concerns. [...]

There are two relevant tales of Christian developments near Ground Zero. One involves a Greek Orthodox church, St. Nicholas', which was crushed by the collapse of WTC Tower Two on 9/11. St. Nicholas' Church was across the street from the World Trade Center. In 2008, a deal was announced with the New York Port Authority to rebuild the church two blocks from its original site. But civil authorities objected to the church's plans for a larger structure, with a dome and spire in the Greek Orthodox tradition. Their express concern was that the church not be taller than the World Trade Center Memorial.

There is no apparent concern about the Park 51 Islamic center being taller than the WTC Memorial (it is). It will not be built as a wholly new structure, of course. But on the other hand, the commercial skyscraper planned by the Port Authority will be a new structure, and it will tower over the WTC Memorial. The principles at work appear to be as follows: new commercial structures may be taller than the Memorial. An Islamic group may occupy a building that is taller than the Memorial and devote it to a religious purpose. But a Christian structure may not be built taller than the Memorial.

We must note about St. Nicholas' that the 2008 deal with the Port Authority entailed a contribution of $20 million from the Authority toward the new building. Certainly, public funding properly gives the Authority some leverage over the structure. St. Nicholas' hasn't been singled out for special public benefits, however; it was the only church that was destroyed by the 9/11 attack. Rebuilding it was simply proposed for public funding as part of the overall plan for the 9/11 site.

The Port Authority planned to build a platform and foundation for the church, because under the 2008 deal it was to sit on top of a garage and security screening area. In March 2009, Authority officials refused to allow the church to review the plans for the garage and screening area. At that point, talks regarding the church's rebuilding ground to a halt. [...]

The center will house a mosque, and mosques broadcast the call to prayer five times a day. This practice has become contentious in a number of American cities; in the Bronx, a masjid stirred vigorous community opposition last fall when it applied for an amplified sound permit for the purpose. The specific reason for requesting the permit was, apparently, that the call already broadcast outside the mosque was not considered loud enough to attract the attention of the faithful, and needed to be louder.

During the years I lived in Norfolk, Virginia, I lived not far from a masjid and I recall that in the 1980s, the calls to prayer were barely audible outside of about a block's radius. By the 1990s, they were being amplified, and could be somewhat annoying on a temperate evening when you wanted to have the windows open. I don't know if anyone ever formally objected to the noise. From a quarter mile away, I found it a bearable irritant. But I can understand why people closer to it might have found it objectionable - as I can understand why residents of the Bronx would, who have no alternative to hearing the adhan five times a day....

Read it all.

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There should never be special treatment or exemptions for any religion, period. When exceptions to rules for religious reasons start, it only ends with atheists being the only ones having to follow ALL the rules, to the letter. That's discrimination.

Also, when one group claims special exemptions, that opens the door to Muslims demanding it, too.

That being said, the Greek Orthodox Church was already there. Why can't it be rebuilt? Why should an alien, triumphalist, enemy monument be erected there? And why should it be allowed to be as tall as it likes, when the GOC can't?

As for exceptions to noise bylaws, as those howling minarets would require, well, I do hope they don't mind if I take my ghettoblaster down by their mosque so I can hear Led Zep at 200 decibels out on the street. If folks don't mind Arabic monkey-babble screaming at them, they can put up with Robert Plant, can't they?

We NEED to get these people out of our countries. Let them call us "racist" or whatever the hell they like. If not, it's going to wind up in "racist" wars, and certain folks aren't going to care WHO gets hurt, if they happen to even LOOK like someone who has come here to step on us.

Not a threat, just a warning.

".. they castigate them as bigots and override their concerns. [...] "
Bigots? you mean Islamophobes right?
(video)
http://crossmuslims.blogspot.com/2010/04/are-you-islamophobe.html

The red prayer rug gets rolled out for Islam, while the infidels just get rolled. Church? You don't need no stinkin' church.

The principles at work appear to be as follows: new commercial structures may be taller than the Memorial. An Islamic group may occupy a building that is taller than the Memorial and devote it to a religious purpose. But a Christian structure may not be built taller than the Memorial.
.................

Anyone familiar with life for Christians and other non-Muslims under dhimmitude must find these aspects of rebuilding churches and the height of buildings especially troubling:

(From the 7th-century "Pact of Umar")

We heard from 'Abd al-Rahman ibn Ghanam [died 78/697] as follows: When Umar ibn al-Khattab, may God be pleased with him, accorded a peace to the Christians of Syria, we wrote to him as follows:

In the name of God, the Merciful and Compassionate. This is a letter to the servant of God Umar [ibn al-Khattab], Commander of the Faithful, from the Christians of such-and-such a city. When you came against us, we asked you for safe-conduct (aman) for ourselves, our descendants, our property, and the people of our community, and we undertook the following obligations toward you:

We shall not build, in our cities or in their neighborhood, new monasteries, Churches, convents, or monks' cells, nor shall we repair, by day or by night, such of them as fall in ruins or are situated in the quarters of the Muslims.

...We shall not manifest our religion publicly...

...We shall not display our crosses or our books in the roads or markets of the Muslims. We shall use only clappers in our churches very softly...

...We shall not build houses overtopping the houses of the Muslims.
...............

Now, I don't imagine that Mayor Bloomberg or anyone at the New York Port Authority knows anything about the Pact of Umar—but they are instinctively "according privilege" to Islam, in a way that would have thoroughly gratified Caliph Umar ibn al-Khattab nonetheless.

"...in the Bronx, a masjid stirred vigorous community opposition last fall when it applied for an amplified sound permit for the purpose [of announcing the azan]." --from the article, my brackets added.

If the announcement of the call to prayer [azan or adhan] were simply about notifying Muslim worshipers in the vicinity to come to the mosque to pray, there would be no need to broadcast sound from the mosque to the surrounding space. Nowadays worshipers could simply be notified on their cell phones or other electronic devices, or by timers, etc. There would be no need to assail the entire neighborhood with the unwanted noise.

But the azan is an Islamic supremacist message that is intended to be announced to everyone, including non-Muslims, within earshot of it. The idea is that everyone has to hear the azan, whether they like it or not, whether they are attending Islamic prayer or not.

The second I saw this astounding The End Of Nations Hubpages piece I convinced myself that Jihad Watch's viewers must have an opportunity to read this link! http://hubpages.com/hub/Global-Union-The-End-Of-Nations

I wonder if the Russians would allow the Muslims to build a mosque to celebrate their other great victory of recent years, the child-rape razzia and massacre at Beslan? http://crombouke.blogspot.com/2010/01/beslan-child-rape-torture-enforced.html

They could even have especially phallic minarets on the site of the school to symbolize the Muslims' favorite weapon of Jihad.

God, whoever wrote that really needs to take some writing courses.

Sean -

as it happens, the Russian Christians wanted to build a church in the grounds of the ruined school, as a memorial to the victims of Beslan - which is perfectly reasonable, since there were no Muslims among them at all, and most were Orthodox Christians - and guess what? the Muslims in Russia professed to be most dreadfully offended, forsooth.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2007/04/beslan-memorial-plan-angers-russian-muslim-leader.html

"The local Russian Orthodox diocese says it will build a church in the grounds of Beslan's school No. 1 to commemorate the victims -- half of them children -- killed in a clash between insurgents (sic: Muslim jihad terror raiders - dda} and Russian troops.

"But one of Russia's leading Muslim clerics has accused the Orthodox church of trying to hijack a national tragedy (!!! - dda) by building a memorial **that he said would exclude the more than 20 million Muslims who live in the country.** {and why not exclude the Muslims? there were NO Muslims among the murdered hostages...only among those who tormented and murdered them! - dda}.

"It is not acceptable to present this tragedy as the tragedy of followers of only one religion," Sheikh Ravil Gainutdin, chairman of the Council of Russian Muftis, said in a statement.' {But, O lying b*****d Mr Gainutdin, it WAS only the tragedy of the Russian Christians; who weeps for psychos who torture and murder *children*? - which is what your fellow-Muslims were, inside that school? - dda}.

Sooo - Muslims want to build a mosque as close to Ground Zero as they can get (i.e. to a place where thousands of non-Muslims were murdered by Muslims) and *demand* that they must be permitted to do so, as a sign of tolerance and inclusion;

yet, in Russia, when Christians, quite reasonably and appropriately, propose to build a memorial church near the place where Muslims murdered hundreds of helpless non-Muslims, most of them Christian children, the Muslims claim that this church would be so wounding to *Muslim* feelings, such a sign of intolerance and exclusion, that it must NOT be permitted?....???


I am willing, both to contribute and solicit contributions for the Greek orthodox church to rebuild its structure. It may (will) cost more as it will not have imam obama's support, but the cost is worth the statement.

Recently a commenter suggested that the church be rebuilt as an exact replica of the original, now desecrated, Hagia Sophia. An excellent idea if only it could be done. But imagine the howls of protest from the Muslim world about the lack of sensitivity in implying, even indirectly, that Muslims did anything wrong. And the most dangerous place in the world would be between our horde of dhimmi politicians and a microphone as they rush to denounce any sort of "insensitivity" toward Muslims.

It seems that Muslims would take any opportunity anywhere in the world to oppose building of churches (or synagogues).

Bhanu Tiwari, this kind of news on your link about European regionalism and EU outposts isn't actually that shocking to many of us who have been following world affairs. Nations--which may start as mere "tribes" living in some backwards "region"--have been rising and falling through almost six millennia of recorded history. In all conflicts there are winners and losers; and if the losers aren't conciliated, they turn separatist when the winners start losing their grip. As a former diplomat, I'm not so sure that the USA should invest its power, wealth, and prestige into maintaining all borders in place in 1945 if those within those borders simply can't find ways of living with each other. Perhaps the world would be a quieter and safer place if a Kurdistan, Flanders, Lombardia, East Turkistan, Karen State, Shan State, revived Champa, Tibet, SOuthern Sudan, Darfur, Taiwan, the Ryukyus, and a dozen other places were recognized. Indeed, if official America were unable to come to a reasonable accommodation with
the populations of various sections of the US, or with Puerto Rico or Guam, I sometimes wonder if it would be worth another million-casualties civil war to preserve the union--and I am an American.

Once, I even heard a German national who was originally Turkish comment on the Kurds with, "We Turks don't demand a piece of Germany". Then again, as a not prarticularly devout professional man, he probably felt that Germany was a fine country in which to be a naturalized immigrant. Maybe things have changed between then and now, but back then, it was a good enough comment on how minorities can be accommodated by a sane and sensible society.

Now, of course there are international bullies who'd use separatist movements as wedges against their neighbors (the Russian-Georgian-Abkhazian-Ossettian complex, for example). There are also the professional grievance-mongers who will lead a miserable minority to an even more miserable majority status in a new state. But if a state konws how to build consensus that includes and accommodates its minorities, such wedge-wielding and grievance-mongering won't work.

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