Once again: This church's plan to burn the Qur'an on September 11 is stupid; I disapprove of it and of many other things about the pastor, the church, and the church's approach to the jihad threat. I don't support the burning of books; it's tactically stupid, as it will make the mainstream media portray the church as a bunch of Nazis, and it's wrong in principle: the antidote to bad speech is not censorship or book-burning, but more speech. Open discussion. Give-and-take. And the truth will out. There is no justification for burning books.
Marisol's comments here are apposite: "'International Burn a Koran Day' does a grave disservice to the cause of spreading awareness about Islamic teachings and the threat that Sharia poses to our way of life. It is a gift to Islamic groups who would so dearly love to portray all of us who criticize and question Islamic teachings (and triumphalist mosques) as frothing reactionaries."
If Americans are free and not under Sharia, then the church can do this if it wants, and their freedom and rights should be protected.
Blaming Obama for this is conspiracy paranoia at its finest.
"Afghans protest US church's plans to burn Quran," by Rahim Faiez for AP, September 6:
KABUL, Afghanistan -- Hundreds of Afghans railed against the United States and called for President Barack Obama's death at a rally in the capital Monday to denounce an American church's plans to burn the Islamic holy book on 9/11.The crowd in Kabul, numbering as many as 500, chanted "Long live Islam" and "Death to America" as they listened to fiery speeches from members of parliament, provincial council deputies, and Islamic clerics who criticized the U.S. and demanded the withdrawal of foreign troops from the country. Some threw rocks when a U.S. military convoy passed, but speakers shouted at them to stop and told police to arrest anyone who disobeyed.
The Gainesville, Florida-based Dove World Outreach Center announced plans to burn copies of the Quran on church grounds to mark the ninth anniversary of the 9/11 terrorist attacks, but has been denied a permit to set a bonfire. The church, which made headlines last year after distributing T-shirts that said "Islam is of the Devil," has vowed to proceed with the burning.
"We know this is not just the decision of a church. It is the decision of the president and the entire United States," said Abdul Shakoor, an 18-year-old high school student who said he joined the protest after hearing neighborhood gossip about the Quran burning.
The U.S. Embassy in Kabul issued a statement condemning Dove World Outreach Center's plans, saying Washington was "deeply concerned about deliberate attempts to offend members of religious or ethnic groups."
Protesters, who gathered in front of western Kabul's Milad ul-Nabi mosque, raised placards and flags emblazoned with slogans calling for the death of Obama, while police looked on. They also held up a cardboard effigy of Dove World Outreach Center's pastor Terry Jones....
It is all a ploy to get the government to agree to anti free speach laws. Aka anti islam free speach laws, aka Shariah law.
Yes indeed, the buck stops at Rasool Obama...This would be funny if not serious...We will see if government agents show up and arrest the burners for causing an international incident...
Another feature of this never ending saga, is that we can now see what the US program of winning hearts and minds amounts to...Death to America, death to Rasool Obama...You can feed the beast, but you can't make him like you...
....And billions of dollers later and over 3100 american lives..
Wat have we got from these muslim Afghans? Same thing as we got from the ingrate Porkies and the ingrate Egyptians, and the ingrate Falsistinians. Nothing but "death to america".
My wish after 9/11 was simply to bomb Afghanistan back to the stone ages, after that, drop millions of leaflets saying if " if you do this again, we will wipe your pathetic nation clean off the map". No troops on ground, no nation building, and certainly no winning the hearts and minds of these islamic savages. That and dropping all aid and assistance to the Porkies.
I think it would be the honorable thing to do for the SIOA to put a stop to this church's plans to burn the Qur'an.
I know it sounds stupid and, Robert, you may be thinking it is none of our business what this pastor does, but in truth, he is making matters worse worldwide.
What will be the implications of his libricide? Church burnings, killing of Christians, kidnappings, rioting, who know what?
The SIOA would stand out as an organization devoted to preserving peace in the US and abroad rather than how the Liberal mainstream media perceive it.
I do not believe in libricide as an answer to anything.
The Nazis used it against the Jews in 1933 (I think that was the date?).
The Qur'an should be preserved for analysis and critique.
Even notorious books like Mein Kampf should be preserved for same.
These books stand as testament to how man’s inhumanity to man, when used in print, can lead to genocide and tyranny and they should serve as lessons to be learned.
This could be a real positive.
http://newstime.co.nz/pastor-terry-jones-burn-the-quran-vs-muslims-burn-americas-flag.html
The book burning remembers me to the burning of German books in "Adolf Nazi's" time
I believe also in the power of truth like Ali Sina.
Speaking out the truth is the better way
Maybe it should show the world opticaly,
what the Quran is about (the book of evil with torture and violent surahs)
There are easier, better ways to bring attention to the stealth jihad than by burning books, especially the koran. Although it would be some sort of poetic justice if these copies of the koran had been obtained through the free giveaways sponsored by Saudi Arabia. Personally, I prefer solid, hardcore mockery. The muslim personality and mindset cannot tolerate any symbolic poke with a sharp stick. Provoking them into wall pounding fits of rage tends to expose the utter intolerance of islam to even those who rarely pay attention to it.
http://tinyurl.com/27gcfnb
http://tinyurl.com/2acrab6
I support the church burning the Qurans. I wish I could be there to help. From time to time we need to exercise our rights fully and I note Islam is a faith of INTIMIDATION. Sometimes you must get "radical" with those who intimidate, get in their face, and figuratively knock the crap out of them. Sometimes you need to literally knock the crap out of them too.
We also need to quit being "controlled" by the fear of man and by what they think. So what if they think we're Nazi's. I have a news alert, the already call us Nazi's. They already call us a bunch of "things" as they continually attempt to vilify us as Hitler vilified the Jews.
If one is agaist the burning of the Quran, then instead of taking issue with those who are for it, we might be best advised to say, as Robert did in his article, that although against the move, we support their First Amendment rights to do so.
With people, particluarly Christians, around the globe getting persecuted and murdered by Muslims, being "concerned" about the burning of the most vile hate book ever written is not high on my list.
I think anything that offends these people, i.e. Muslims, is worth doing. The age of the fear of offending people is over.
Speaking of rights, this:
"and called for President Barack Obama's death"
In this instance, I envy them. They appear to have more "rights" than we do. LOL
These enraged mobs are late to the party. Prior coverage and commentary:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/08/jihadists-take-the-bait-threaten-florida-church-with-suicide-bombings.html
What will be the implications of his libricide? Church burnings, killing of Christians, kidnappings, rioting, who know what?
Correct. And that is the only reason the pastor should be persuaded to cancel the kuran burning party. If not for the fact that Christians are practically held hostages in muzzlum countries I would be very happy to see kuran burning celebrations repeated regularly a few times per year all over the West.
I don't think there is something terrible in burning books per se. Books which are vile and hateful should be burned as a symbolic act and statement. Those who wish to preserve such books for "analysis and critique" or veneration are free to do so. Freedom to burn a book is as legitimate as a freedom to preserve it.
The Nazis used it against the Jews in 1933.
No. Against the Jews Nazis did not use book burning, but Jew-burning.
Something very different and what muzzlems would happily do if given a chance.
Gee!...no Muslim has stepped forward to prevent Muslims from burning Bibles or the American Flag .....and this occurs frequently in Muslim countries (and even in some Non-Muslim countries)....Islamic clerics must be behind those actions...
book burnings?????
the guardianistas are going to feed on this one
Islam is building a Victory Mosque/Trophy Mosque at Ground Zero under the rubric of freedom of religion. How is it NOT freedom of religion/freedom of speech for somebody to burn a Qur-an in Florida? (absent a BBQ permit)
I agree that burning anyone's holy book, flag, etc. is in bad taste. The problem with Islamic people is that they don't show the slightest compunction against doing the same sort of thing on a regular basis.
So I say, burn it.
The Florida church has a Constitutional right to burn any book they want, just as the Muslims have a Constitutional right to build the GZM. Both acts are uncouth, but the Koran burning is far moe constructive in that the outrage against it may help expose the fanatical nature of Islamic society in allegedly friendly areas such as Afghanistan where we are squandering our resources.
"If Americans are free and not under Sharia, however, then the church can do this if it wants, and their freedom and rights should be protected."
Just so.
While Robert Spencer's opposition to the Quran burning is understandable and while I myself would not recommend it (books shouldn't be burned as a matter of principle) there are some points in favor of it that I think should be kept in mind.
1) Burning Qurans is an striking expression of ridicule and don't forget that ridicule of the Quran or Islam is a key weapon that tends to erode any respect for the Quran or Islam
( http://www.faithfreedom.org/op-ed/an-effective-weapon-against-terrorists-ridicule/ ).
This is chiefly why so many Muslims go into hysterics about it.
2) It would be an act in brave defiance of this intolerable habit of some Muslims to make death threats every time something is about to happen they don't like.
3) It would show American insistence of the American right to freedom of expression and defiance of Islam's ever ongoing war against it.
Something to think about if the Koranic smoke actually does billow - which I doubt anyway given all the pressure against it.
The Qur'an was written by a woman, the reason it was is that
Mohomad could neither read or write. Why would any Muslim
believe any thing a woman says about Allah. Muslims believe
women are a kind of low life, lower than dirt. The Qur'an
is paper and ink and paper and should not be treated like
Allah.
BURNING QURAN IS THE WRONG METHOD SO ARE GOING INTO AFGANISTAN AND IRAQ MILITARILY.THIS IS THE WAR OF IDEOLOGY AND DEMOGRAPHIC CONQUEST WAGED BY ISLAM AND MUSLIMS IN A VERY INVISIBLE AND THE MOST DECEPTIVE WAYS.
WE ALL HAVE TO CHOOSE THE RIGHT STRATEGY TO COUNTER THIS ETERNAL WAR OF JIHAD WAGED BY ISLAM AND MUSLIMS AGAINST US NON-MUSLIMS
HERE ARE ONLY A FEW BUT BUT LETHALLY EFFECTIVE METHODS:
1/EXPOSE ALL THE ISLAMIC TEACHINGS AS MUCH POSSIBLE AS WE CAN
AND EDUCATE THE PUBLIC ON A BROADER SCALE,BOOKS,TV & RADIO
PROGRAMS...ETC
2/EXPOSE ALL THE MEDIA,ORGANIZATIONS, AND PEOPLE WHO ARE WORKING
FOR SUPPORT OF GLOBAL ISLAMIZATION.
3/ USE THE SAME METHOD OF INTOLERANCE MUSLIMS USE AGAINST ALL NON- MUSLIMS.
TIME IS INDEED RUNNING OUT.WITHIN A FEW DECADES,MUSLIMS WILL BECOME MAJORITY IN THE WHOLE WORLD WITH CURRENT BIRTH-RATE AND INFILITRATION INTO NON-MUSLIM LANDS AT AN ALARMING RATE !
ALL OUR CHURCH LEADERS REGARDLESS OF CHRISTIAN,JEWISH,HINDU OR BUDDHIST BELIEF,MUST WORK HARD ON THESE STRATEGIES. OTHERWISE,WE ARE ALL GOING TO FACE OUR SAD FATE !
Caps.
Lock.
Well, I've spoken against book-burning (and banning) before, even if it is pro-Christianity and anti-Islam. And, while I cannot deny someone his First Amendment rights to burn a copy of Yusuf Ali's translation or whatever, I will exercise mine and say that I disagree.
To those who think that SIOA or anyone else can stop it, though, fundamentalist, Evangelical, and Pentecostal Christians are a very diverse bunch of people. Contrary to the leftist media who say we are easily led, we are in fact highly independent-minded and ornery. That's why we have a lot of denominations and independent congregations--including people who say that Pat Robertson is a false prophet and that Jerry Falwell was a heretic (to pick on two prominent names). If we were to all bombard those Florida book-burners with petitions and communications opposing their actions, they'd probably just dig in their heels and do it anyway.
As for angry Muslims, well, it just seems that Muslims are very good at getting angry. I just hope that there are some of them who are savvy enough to realize that perhaps one reason why we have things like this nonsense in Florida is simply because their co-religionists can't seem to resist the temptation to rub things into the faces of the Kufr and ahl-al-kitab.
That they would actually blame Barack Obama should be evidence that there is nothing anyone can do that will satisfy the Muslim world, short of total surrender.
Unfortunately, too many Americans are willing to do exactly that.
this book burning though their right is not going to achieve anything. Nazi burnt books too.
I agree only partially with Robert Spencer here - while I would not burn the Koran myself (even if I had full protection), nor would most decent people, the fringe elements who do such things also fulfill a purpose. Islam should be subjected to all the provocation and ridicule that is possible. It is only through this kind of constant poking that Muslims can be incentivized to try understand why no ideology should seek protection against ridicule.
Constant pressure accompanied with unshakeable political and military power alone can force change in Muslim world.
Sanjay
jeez! these dudes need er! sensitivity training:-)
well...theres been draw moh day, maybe burn quran day
after all been lots of burn books you can t read days in pakistan ;-)
ridicule may yet overcome the old "muslim threat or else" scenario
al-Kidya said "What will be the implications of his libricide? Church burnings, killing of Christians, kidnappings, rioting, who know what?"
Thomas_h replied; "Correct. And that is the only reason the pastor should be persuaded to cancel the kuran burning party."
News alert to al-Kidya. Muslims are ALREADY burning churches, killing Christians, kidnapping, rioting, and much more.
Just the thought of and/or act of trying to dissuade the pastor from burning the Qurans out of fear of what may happen, means they are winning and/or have won already. Such is an obvious sign to them that their intimidation is working. Whether we do it or not, it is a "win-win" situation for them. Such "caution" by us is only encouragement for them to continue with not only the intimidation, but turn it up even more and continue with business as usual in the burning of churches, killing Christians, kidnapping, rioting, and much more.
What we need to do, is not cowardly slink into a corner and remain quiet because we fear getting them riled, but come out loud and be prepared to respond to the tyranny of intimidation with force of defensive violence and perhaps even go on the offensive.
Like it or now, we are at war with Islam. Free peoples, Christians included, may just need to arm themselves and be willing to use force to rebuff the violence directed at them.
Perhaps it is time we started intimidating them, put fear into them, and give them good cause to fear us.
They should no longer be allowed to engage in intimidation and vilence with impunity.
When they do, they should have to pay a heavy cost.
al-kidya said: "What will be the implications of his libricide? Church burnings, killing of Christians, kidnappings, rioting, who know what?"
Another threat. Subtle, but a threat nonetheless.
So as free men and women, do we cower to such threats. Or stand up and wage war against this tyranny?
By all means burn Qurans, but please, please do not flush them down the toilet, as the following heartfelt plea implores:
Letter to the Editor
I and other members of our diverse community wish to denounce in the strongest possible terms the current craze for flushing the Koran down the toilet, as started by a certain Mr Stanislav Shmulevich.
These Islamophobes think they are making a political or religious statement in sending this book into the sewers, but do they realise just what harm they're doing? Where do they think these soggy, smelly Korans go to? They don't just harmlessly dissappear, I can tell you!
I am a member of a diverse community of single celled organisms who work in the activitated sludge at a sewage treatment plant. Our community is composed of bacteria, amoebae, Spirotrichs, Peritrichs, Vorticellids etc who were all working happily side by side to process human wastes and render them harmless, until all this Koran-flushing business started.
Between us, we microbes can biodegrade any normal pee or poo. But these Korans have got us beat. They are toxic supershi'ite. We've never seen crap like it, not even the stuff that comes out of the toilets in government offices.
What's worse is the danger of the development of militant cells. As you are no doubt all aware, if the Koran comes into contact with certain low and primitive life-forms it can turn them into virulent killers. I'm afraid this could happen to some members of our previously well-integrated microbial community. I and my fellow protozoans have got more sense than to be affected by this crap, but some of the previously harmless bacteria could turn pathogenic and escape from the sewage treatment plant to cause havoc. That's why flushing the koran is such a serious hate-crime.
So next time you're tempted to wipe your botty on Sura 5:33, spare a thought for all of us at the other end of the sewer. There are alternative environmentally acceptable ways to dispose of unwanted korans. Have you thought of using the pages as beer-mats, or as kitchen towels to absorb the excess fat from your fried bacon?
- A. Moeba
http://crombouke.blogspot.com/2010/01/koran-in-toilet.html
I oppose the burning of the Koran not because it is the Koran but because it is a book. I don't care if it is considered religious literature or pornography. I am opposed to burning either and all between. Book burning defiles the atmosphere with pollutants and the unburnt remains contain toxic solid waste.
I would rather that the paper be recycled, perhaps into toilet tissue. Let's organize a recycle your Koran day. That I could support.
Al-Kidya:
What do you think SIOA is? Some kind of paramilitary force?
Anyway, I am not involved with organizing this event, and neither is Pamela Geller, the executive director of SIOA. In fact, neither she nor I nor SIOA have anything to do with this whatsoever.
So how could we possibly put a stop to it?
Cordially
Robert Spencer
They are out to conquer us and will use our democracy, which they despise, to crush us.
The founder of CAIR, Council of American Islamic Relations, Omar Ahmad, told a reporter that their real aim is to make Islam the only religion in America.
This is the group the liberal media loves to interview and which is threatening Pam and Robert.
Not at all subtle.
http://jewishdailyreport.wordpress.com/2010/09/06/islam-only-accepted-religion/
I disagree.
It will achieve one thing - it will show how violent and irrationally muslims respond to a harmless offense.
I don't agree with burning books. However, if someone wants to burn property they own, then so be it. Its their right to do as they please with their own property.
It may not be the smart thing to do. I would personally find burning some property offensive. But it isn't my right to dictate how others treat their property.
I don't think this church should have chosen a quran burning as a form of protest. However, now there's a part of me that hopes the church won't back down to this senseless intimidation. (Though, I do like rbla's suggestion of a public quran reading instead.)
If the church backs down now, or if the government - local, state, or federal - interferes, it will set a terrible precedent and send a message to muslims that threatening violence will get positive (for them) results. It will send a message that islam, above all other religions, will be protected in America. It will set a double-standard that allows all religions to be mocked, except islam.
Allowing islam to enjoy that separation & special protection is against everything we supporters at JihadWatch, and Atlas Shrugs, and FDI, and SIOA, and every other free speech and anti-jihad organization, stand for.
Muslims are free to burn a Bible in response, if they wish. They are free to peacefully protect. They are not - and should never be free - to threaten violence and intimidation in protest to a non-violent display.
Sanjay said: "I agree only partially with Robert Spencer here - while I would not burn the Koran myself (even if I had full protection), nor would most decent people, the fringe elements who do such things also fulfill a purpose. Islam should be subjected to all the provocation and ridicule that is possible. It is only through this kind of constant poking that Muslims can be incentivized to try understand why no ideology should seek protection against ridicule."
Canto28 said: "Burning Qurans is an striking expression of ridicule and don't forget that ridicule of the Quran or Islam is a key weapon that tends to erode any respect for the Quran or Islam"
AMEN.
And we should not hesitate in using the weapon of ridicule. We need to ridicule, mock, and expose this evil using all the weapons in are arsenal.
Sanjay, I consider myself a "decent person" and I support the burning of the Quran. I would also support the burning of Mohammad in effigy.
As to being a member of the "fringe elements", I consider myself to be a part of the "mainstream element". It is the Muslims and the Left who are the true fringe not I. I guess it all depends on one perspective for example the most radical President in the United States, i.e. the Obama regime, view us, i.e. 70% of Americans, as the radicals.
Unlike the Obama regime who calls me THE "fringe element", I don't surround myself with Marxists, Communists, people who advocate population control, sex with children, praise mass murderers like Mao or Che, praise dictators like Chavez, praise of statism atttempting to get more power and control over the people via Obamacare and the lie of man causing global warming with corrupt pseudo-science, Marxist "social justice", Marxist wealth redistributin, and other and other such whacko left-wing causes.
To such people, I am a "fringe element" and proud to be so.
I completely support the right of this pastor and his flock to burn Korans and I completely support my own right to say how stupid such an action is. Burning books is not the way one should deal with wickedness. Rather, the effective use of argument (including mockery at times) and, if need be, force is how totalitarian evil should be faced. Jeesh, this is so simple to figure out, i.e., Islam is inimical to liberty and must be confronted intelligently, even a non-brainwashed adolescent (rarer and rarer these days) or a true journalist (rarer and rarer these days) or an informed New York City mayor (rarer and rarer these days) could get this one.
DJM said:
"I don't think this church should have chosen a quran burning as a form of protest. However, now there's a part of me that hopes the church won't back down to this senseless intimidation. (Though, I do like rbla's suggestion of a public quran reading instead.)
If the church backs down now, or if the government - local, state, or federal - interferes, it will set a terrible precedent and send a message to muslims that threatening violence will get positive (for them) results. It will send a message that islam, above all other religions, will be protected in America. It will set a double-standard that allows all religions to be mocked, except islam."
AMEN DJM!
Whether or not one agrees to what this church is doing, they have already publicly announced their intentions. Therefore, we must get behind them. I don't want them now to back down, but stand strong in their conviction.
For example, when Congressman Joe Wilson shouted "LIE" when Obama gave his State of the Union address, it may have violated "decorum", but I was glad he did it. I was upset that more Republicans didn't rise up and say "LIE!" and/or "LIAR!" Obama was lying his head off, but that is what pathological liars do.
What upset me was Joe Wilson backed down. Joe Wilson was attacked not only by the Left, but by the leadership of the GOP. Instead of attacking Joe for speaking truthfully, the GOP should have stood with him and pointed out all the lies Obama spoke.
I note if a Democrat had shouted "Lie!" at President Bush, the Democrats would have circled their wagons around that Democrat.
We need to do the same, i.e. circle our wagons, around our allies even if we disagree with one of their tactics. Not side with the enemy and shoot our ally in the foxhole next to us.
The action by this church has already been announced, we should stand by them not against them. If they back down, then what DJM astutely points out will be a major shame and loss for us and a win for the tyranny and intimidation of Islam.
To the people of the church, this lawyer supports you. You are not alone as you wage your war against a common foe.
they don't have to burn the Koran to make the point it is to be despised for the horror it encourages.
merely drop them on the ground, open them, put a little dirt atop - but not to bury, allow the elements to do the work of destruction. the church may have to put a fence around the mound and cover with some mesh so as not to be accused of littering.
oh, and they shouldn't wear gloves while depositing the books
Why were these unique version of the Qur'an later destroyed by fire?
While no one should be encouraging 'book burning' on principle, even if early Muslims burnt their Koran. But it would be okay to have copies of the offensive verses in the Koran (over 100 of them) reproduced on sheets of paper, read aloud, and then burned in protest for their violent context. That would be smarter thing to do then burning the entire Koran, IMO. We are better.
Story on RBO web page.
"Jones said while there was “no doubt” his plans were offensive to Muslims, “we tried to make it very clear our action is not against the moderate Muslims. Our message is strictly gearded toward the radical Muslims.”
The National Association of Evangelicals, the nation’s largest umbrella evangelical group, meanwhile, issued a statement urging the church to cancel the event, warning it could cause worldwide tension between the two religions.
“The NAE calls on its members to cultivate relationships of trust and respect with our neighbors of other faiths. God created human beings in his image, and therefore all should be treated with dignity and respect,” the statement said.
Responding to the statement, Jones told Klein, he had “no interntion” of cancelling the event.
Jones continued: “We think those type of statements actually to a certain extent prove our point that the American church has become very weak, very cowardly. (They) are not ready to stand up principals of the Bible.”
http://therealbarackobama.wordpress.com/2010/09/06/burn-a-quran-pastor-concedes-plan-could-put-americans-in-danger-we-realized-whenever-we-did-this-it-could-cause-some-sort-of-retaliation/
Does not look like he intends to cancel the event.
Only select pages of the Koran need to be burned.
Sura 9:5.
Sura 9:29
Etc.
The pastor in Florida should agree to a "compromise" and only burn those most malignant pages.
He should read outloud the diseased, violent, terroristic tenets enshrined in the Koran, tear those pages free, and consign them to the cleansing flames.
Then recommend that all Muslims who want a peaceful Islam do the same.
A TEAR OUT THE TERROR! campaign would actually instruct people about the many vicious, immoral, homicidal and misgoynistically foul contents of the "Recitation" (al-Koran).
Merely burning the unopened book will illuminate nothing, and shall only gain unwarranted sympathy for Islam by default through a kneejerk counter show ~by uniformed infidels~ of "anti-intolerance".
Islam's dismal dogmas need to be exposed.
This Florida folly will only conceal them further under a gloss of misplaced "compassion" from those who are Islam's ultimate targets: the "unclean" unbelievers.
Damned dumb.
Ineresting to note that, in the article Jones states that he has had over a hundred threats, some of these being death threats already. Says also he has notified the police and FBI.
A couple of things:
1)Look the Muslims will hate our guts no matter what we do, their religion dictates it.
2)The MSM hates and vilifies anyone who opposes ANY ASPECT OF ISLAM no matter how erudite and scholarly they are.
3)Muslims will still continue to plot and carry out acts of terrorism against Christians, Jews, Hindu's ect, irregardless of whether or not a church burns a koran or feeds it to a pig.
4)Muslims will still pressure Democrats to silence critics of Islam regardless of whether or not the koran is burned.
Lastly:
The only reason not for the church to burn it, is to not give the undecided the impression the only people criticising Islam are book burning fanatics.
Now if a individual wants to cook a koran or feed it to their local swine, that's fine because it doesn't carry the impression that a organization is behind it.
Hi DJM! as I mentioned they have every right to burn the Koran and no state, federal or local authority has any authority to stop them. but this will cause violence. all it is going to take a one obssesed mulim to take some kinf of action. let me ask you a question:
what if you were in vatican and in the square were the pope recites prayer. and someone decided to burn a bible. do you think one christain is going offended enough to take a violent action? the answer is yes for sure. that is religion for you. though some more intolorant thatn others in this case Islam.
Bush and Blair have both been pelted with shoes. Obama is supposed to visit Jerusalem and Ramallah in the coming months. If a shoe comes his way I doubt he will be able to duck in time (too much focus on his teleprompters).
Obama should start practicing - palestinians as kids don't grow up wanting to play second base, they grow up with sling-shots. Obama's Peace Process would look like shit with just one well placed sandal.
The crowd size, chanting "Death to America," seems a little small for demonstrations of this kind. I wonder what gives.
Nevertheless, the fact that there are any demonstrators at all points to a residual and instractable problem: Civilization and nationhood cannot come to Afghanistan while Islam infects the mind of so many there. We could have and should have known this nine years ago when we invaded the country. There were only two reasons for that invasion 1) to put Osama bin Laden in an orange jump suit, prior to bringing him to trial or 2) to put Osama bin Laden into a body bag. So let's hurry up and do that and forget about nation building.
I don't care what riles Moslems up, since nearly everything appears to do so. To pretend that there is anything that we can do to assuage their rage is misplaced courtesy in the first place and the slippery slope to appeasement in every following case. For all of that, I don't like the notion of organized Qur'an burnings. My copies of the Qur'an and the Sirat Rasul Allah sit on the political section of my book shelf, not far from a copies of Mein Kampf and Das Kapital. All of these books have their values, even if only in a cautionary sense. Western civilization has brought the world to this level of development despite book burning, not because of it. While many rotten ideas have been undeservedly dignified by being published, they are much more effectively incinerated by educated scorn than by acts of suppression that make us no better than that which we abhor.
LOL at muslims.
Muslims have been saying they have a first amendment right to freedom of religion and to build their GZ mosque. Well guess what Dove Church has a first amendment right to freedom of religion and free speech.They can burn korans that they own or that have been donated. That act is protected speech in the United States. What the koran burning does is expose islam as intolerant and backward. A "religion" that cares more about burned books then humans who are burned alive in muslim terror attacks.No other religion would threaten death and destruction over a burned book.Yet islam does. The pastor of Dove church said he can understand muslims being offended. But the fact that they would threatened murder and terror attacks proves what he has said about islam being evil.
I understand your point, and it is a valid point.
But your Vatican analogy doesn't apply. The Church isn't burning a quran in Mecca, or in any other Islamic society. The quran burning is taking place on private property, in America, where freedom of expression is the paramount to freedom of religion.
I'm not saying publicly burning a quran is the proper thing to do. Personally, I would not do that - I'd find another way to express my distaste for that "holy" book.
I think the real point now is, should the threat of violence dictate when and how we can legally express our opinions?
Violence and intimidation should *never* be allowed to stifle the freedom of speech.
i honestly do know what to say. I can tell you though this kind of stuff breeds violence
It is purely symbolic. Would we burn a hard copy of Webster's Dictionary because it contained a description of tyrant? It is futile. It is as if the target is the written word itself.
Official state sponsored book burning in the US is done indirectly, and mostly for nominally symbolic reasons only (and to satisfy some corrupt special interests), such as the Cash For Clunkers program. We destroyed many perfectly good cars -- which many people would have purchased later from some used car lot -- upon the religious alter of the Sustainable economy. It was economic heresy. If we followed that logic we would each burn our own house down and build a slightly smaller one in its place so as to stimulate the Sustainable economy.
It is self-immolation, light.
Nevertheless, any text that is owned by a burner is entitled to no more protection than is the American flag. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_v._Johnson
Mirian rove said:
"what if you were in vatican and in the square were the pope recites prayer. and someone decided to burn a bible. do you think one christain is going offended enough to take a violent action? the answer is yes for sure. that is religion for you. though some more intolorant thatn others in this case Islam."
First I don't usually recite prayer. I talk to God, i.e. prayer. Unlike other faiths, in Christianity a Christian can have a personal relationship with the Creator of the Universe via Jesus Christ His Son.
Secondly, I note Christ has been mocked and laughed at by the media, the arts (Cross in a jar of urine), and made fun of in "cartoons" on the Comedy Channel for example, but unlike Muslims, Christians have not rioted, raped, burned, and/or kill the cartoonist or artist for such depections of Jesus Christ. Nor have we used INTIMIDATION and threatened violence and "revenge". However, such has happened around the globe repeatedly with the false prophet "Mo".
As to your scenario, Christians would not inflict harm on a lost soul burning a bible. They may debate him and pray for him, but unlike Muslims they would not beat him to death, behead him, or go into town and rape "infidels", loot, and burn stores for descrating the true Word of God.
That my friend is what Islam would do, has done, and will do in the future. Even with the church sitution in Gainesville, Muslims already are threatening violence if this is done. Violence and barbarity is part of the DNA of Islam. Islam is an evil. It is a tyranny and free men and women, including Christians, must oppose such evil. To do anything else would be foolish and sin.
But as we oppose this evil called Islam, we will love the sinner, i.e. the lost, who are deluded by the big lie of Islam and destined for eternal separation from God if they die without Christ. However, we will not embrace evil nor give evil itself any dignity or respect.
Pastor Jones is silly in his approuch to the problem.
"We know this is not just the decision of a church. It is the decision of the president and the entire United States," said Abdul Shakoor, an 18-year-old high school student who said he joined the protest after hearing neighborhood gossip about the Quran burning."
----------------
Does that mean his chances of being elected Caliph are out the window?
And:
"Hundreds of Afghans railed against the United States and called for President Barack Obama's death at a rally in the capital Monday to denounce an American church's plans to burn the Islamic holy book on 9/11."
----------------
That makes it Secret Service involvement time, correct? Aren't they required, by custom and by law, to investigate every open threat to any president?
If I were them, I'd start with any and all Afghan-heavy communities, and their mosques.
Sorry for the first correction going through. I thought I had stopped it in time when I saw OR missing in "Being born to Christian Muslim parents..." which should read "Being born to Christian or Muslim parents..."
"You can feed the beast, but you can't make him like you..." -
There is one good solution to stop these ding-bats threatening us continuously (Nuks are not necessary!) - we occupy the Saudie oilfileds, shoot anyone who comes anywhere near a close to twenty miles. That will put a stop to all that f.. nonsense in the Islamic world.
I don't give a rats ass if 500 Afghanies or 500 000 000 afghanies shouting anti-American slogans - they depend on us not the other way around.
Re: deletions: please remember this is a non-sectarian site.
If one claims they do, because of "fear" of retribution, then we've lost this battle already.
I have noticed something of a paradox in this regard: On the one hand, Spencer proudly declares his intrepid resolve to continue being vocal and visible using his real name and being present in person at various events that could endanger his life; yet on the other hand, when it comes to saying or doing things that might anger our PC MC Masters, Spencer seems to become a shrinking violet.
The argument in defense of Spencer's paradox would all hinge on the wisdom of tactics. I'm not entirely convinced this one logical nodus is capable of sustaining such a defense much longer. As "Greycoat" put it above:
We also need to quit being "controlled" by the fear of man and by what they think. So what if they think we're Nazi's. I have a news alert, the already call us Nazi's. They already call us a bunch of "things" as they continually attempt to vilify us as Hitler vilified the Jews.
Here's where that nodus become more intensely concentrated: Can it be demonstrated with sufficient persuasiveness that the marginalization and ostracization under which the still inchoate anti-Islam movement and its representatives currently suffer would be significantly worse were we to stop worrying about what the PC MC might think of us? I tentatively propose that were we to stop worrying about our PC MC Masters, there might be a brief period of backlash from the Mainstream, but that over time it would positively advance not only the Movement, but also would help to hasten the process of the Great Reawakening of the West.
Paradigm shifts aren't natural phenomena. They don't just happen by themselves. They need people to push them through. And those people won't be able to assist in pushing it through very effectively, if they continue to censor themselves out of fear of what the Mainstream around them thinks of them.
Recycle a Qur'an? I like that.
Canto28 and Greycoat both agree that
"Burning Qurans is an striking expression of ridicule".
I disagree. The act of a group formally burning Korans is brazen, defiant, deadly serious.
As I have proposed before, there are many other ways one could denigrate the Koran without having to burn it.
Imagine the following scenario (don't worry, Marisol, no bodily fluids will ensue, though a diuretic -- coffee -- will be involved):
A large group of people (whether a church or any group of anti-Islam people) plan a day held outside, weather permitting (but PC MC climate be damned). News media will be invited. Members will film the event to be posted on YouTube.
Long tables will be set out, at which there will be pots of hot coffee, cups, and Korans.
Also, among the condiments of sugar, Sweet & Lo, and cream, there will be a non-dairy cream powder which will be formally and repeatedly announced contains haram ingredients. Everyone will dutifully pour themselves a cup of coffee and everyone will choose the creamer with haram ingredients.
Calmly, all the people participating -- who will have rehearsed in private beforehand -- will pick up a cup, take a sip, then say "Oops!" and spill the contents all over the Koran at their place-setting. People will be encouraged to say "Oops!" more than once, and accidentally spill their coffee on their Korans as many times as they want, and even gleefully smile while doing so.
Burning Quran will achieve nothing but threats, because we have let them threaten us. We do not response in the manner that could put a stop to it.
If we had access to the oil wells in Saudie, would we care a bit about how they feel about someone burning Quran?
I am for occupying oilfields, period.
Don't want to see the evil book repeatedly evilizing our hinds, na...
Marisol | September 6, 2010 1:21 PM | Reply
Re: deletions: please remember this is a non-sectarian site.
A site that takes on one of the top religions in the world and only "non-sectarians" can be a part of the conversation?
"Sectarians" have no "rights" here and have their posts deleted?
Well ban me, because I'm not going to be "non-sectarian" just because you are.
The Muslims have already burnt churches in Malaysia over the issue of Christians using the word Allah in the Malay version of the Bible so why should the Muslims go ape-shit when a few Korans are burnt in America. They should be grateful that the Americans are not burning mosques for the murder of nearly 3000 of their country men.
Greycoat--
I'm not making this up as I go along. This is the long-standing policy of the site, and I encourage you to take up your objections with Robert at director[at]jihadwatch.org .
This is my fundamental point of guidance for deletions of comments, and you've got another issue to pay attention to in there, if you can find it:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2006/03/komments-kraziness.html
By non-sectarian, I mean that, as Robert himself has said, this is not a Christian site. The problem of jihad is bigger than Christianity, and affects all non-Islamic religions, as well as sects Muslims persecute as heretical, like the Baha'i, Ahmadiyya, and others.
We are not anti-religious, but we promote no religious agenda with our organization, and do not allow the comments section to be hijacked by any, either.
Again, this is not a policy of my own whimsical invention. But I agree with it, and I do my part to uphold it.
And once again: Problems? Questions? Concerns? Talk to my boss, Robert Spencer.
This whole argument sort of reminds of that one famous scene from that classic movie:
Malone: You said you wanted to protest against violent jihadist Muslims. Do you really wanna get their goat? You see what I'm saying is, what are you prepared to do?
Ness: Anything within the First Amendment.
Malone: And *then* what are you prepared to do? If you open the can on these worms you must be prepared to go all the way. Because they're not gonna give up the fight, until one of you is silenced.
Ness: I want to protest against violent jihadist Muslims! I don't know how to do it.
Malone: You wanna know how to protest against them and get them to expose their true colors in a big way? They pull some lawfare, you make a new law against it. They burn churches over the Christian use of the term "Allah," you burn their ideological playbook, the very basis for all their actions. *That's* the *Proportional* way! And that's how you protest them and really get their goat. Now do you want to do that? Are you ready to do that? I'm offering you a deal. Do you want this deal?
Ness: I have sworn to protest against violent jihadist Muslims with all the freedoms the First Amendment allows, and I will do so.
Malone: Well, the Lord hates a coward.
[jabs Ness with his hand, and Ness shakes it]
Malone: Do you know what a death fatwa is, Mr. Ness?
Ness: Yes.
Malone: Good, 'cause you're about to get one.
Greycoat: Never mind, I just found this from you while cleaning out your use of the word "Muzzies," something we also delete:
Take it up with Robert if you have a problem.
Goodbye!
i can see that you are religious. that is fine. you may right. nonetheless there are better way of dealing with this issue
m
Hesperado:
Let me ask you a question: if something -- anything -- is frowned upon by "our PC MC Masters," must someone in my position therefore endorse it, at the risk of being called a "shrinking violet"?
In reality, I couldn't care less about "our PC MC Masters," and if I did care about them, one would think I would find better ways to show it than by embarking on a course that has them calling me "racist," "bigot," "hatemonger" and worse on a more or less daily basis. But perhaps you have different canons of evidence, and that is your affair.
In any case, the fact that they call me those names and also call other people those names does not give me any obligation to endorse any and all actions those other people may choose to undertake. In this case, I dislike book burning. I dislike the forceful suppression of opinion. It is to my taste too close to what "our PC MC Masters" would like to do, and are beginning to try to do, to people like me.
And so I will continue to oppose their book burning, while defending their right to carry it out if they wish, just as I will defend your right to continue to choose to be a relentless and unappeasable sidelines critic rather than a fellow warrior.
Cordially
Robert Spencer
In 1242, there was a spectacular book-burning in Paris. Some 24 loads of the Talmud were burned at the Place de Grève, for reasons to complex to explain in this comment box.
It is interesting that General Petraeus has addressed the public and made a plea to protect the soldiers from what could be a violent reaction in the Islamic world.
"We know this is not just the decision of a church. It is the decision of the president and the entire United States," said Abdul Shakoor, an 18-year-old high school student who said he joined the protest after hearing neighborhood gossip about the Quran burning."
This reminds me of the game 'telephone', only way worse ...
He's making a point and its being widely heard. Not everyone agrees with his methods but many agree with the point he is making.
Jihadists and radical muslims have proved his point succiently even if he decided not to go through with the book burning.
What point have you made about this problem?
I wonder how many Afghans are able even to locate Florida on a map.
Hell, muslims burn flags right here in the U.S.! A group of muslim thugs did it not long ago in NYC, the islamic thinkers, I think they called themselves. They call for the death of our president (I don't like him but I don't wish him dead), they threaten suicide bombings in retaliation, they use all the usual islamic terror tactics every day of the year! Screw them!
I hate to see this qur'an burning because it will give the anti-Christian media more ammo to make their equivialency arguments and to condemn Christianity and Christians as fundamentalist radicals, although there is absolutely no comparison between Christian behavior and muslim behavior. Burning a qur'an will accomplish nothing but more persecution of Christians in muslim lands and more condemnation of Christianity by the left-wing media. I would love to see every qur'an in the world go up in flames but they would just print some more or have the kuffars do it for them.
If one were to print out all the Mohammad cartoons into a book, then video as it was being burned, who could, or would take offence?
J.W. has posted the cartoons on this site, a proud display of free speech, but would burning my cartoon book bring strong words against my act of protest?
Would the followers of islam take issue with a book burning of these hated cartoons, or joy over the fact that Mohammad's image is burning away, never to be viewed by human eyes again?
At least until the video is rewound, or another book is printed.
BURNING THE KORAN IS EXACTLY THE RIGHT THING TO DO, FOR IT IS THE THREATS WRITTEN IN THAT DEAD BOOK, THE LIES, THE FALSE PROMISES, THAT COMPEL CHILDREN TO BECOME SUICIDE BOMBERS. AFTER ALL, I BOUGHT THE BOOK, IT IS MY BOOK NOT THEIRS, IF I WANT TO BURN IT THAT IS NOBODIES BUSINESS BUT MINE! IT IS THAT DEAD BOOK THAT COMMANDS THE MURDERS OF INNOCENT PEOPLE - NOBODY WOULD CARE IF I BURNT HITLERS MASTERPIECE WOULD THEY? OR EVEN THE BIBLE - SO, IT IS A GOOD THING TO DO.
RE: the book burning is "stupid" and the church may be called a bunch of "Nazis."
Huh? Is Sharia creeping into Robert and Pam's (a similar comment on AtlasShrugs) websites?
The Koran is like Mein Kampf, a book written by a man who preached violence and murder and was the figurehead for a totalitarian ideology.
This website should be PROMOTING the book burning protest, not condemning it. Korans should be offered free to the public so thousands can participate in the display of free speech, which will also serve as a message to Muslims that we ain't gonna take their crap!
Thank you Marisol and Robert.
And now, this:
"KABUL, Afghanistan – The top U.S. and NATO commander in Afghanistan warned Tuesday an American church's threat to burn copies of the Muslim holy book could endanger U.S. troops in the country and Americans worldwide."
So, if one accepts this line of thought, then anything anyone does that makes Muslims mad will therefore endanger troops, Americans, Christian churches, and on and on.
To this I say GARBAGE! That's exactly what dhimmis are supposed to think. However, if we DON'T resist, if we DON'T fight back, if we DON'T insist on free speech, if we DON'T block the mosque, if we DO allow Muslims to have special privileges such as blocking streets to pray, THOSE are the things that will truly endanger all our lives.
Speaking as a Christian, (technically an evangelical if we insist on labeling), it's my personal opinion that Qur'an burning is not the answer to anything. Intimidation and provocation is the terrorists' tactic - why not EDUCATE people on Islamic ideology? A smarter, safer tactic is to get inside the head of your enemy/opponent - find out what's "driving" them and learn from the apostates. Christians should be more interested in revealing the "truth" than fighting "fire with fire". Don't get me wrong - I have no respect for a book that blasphemes the true God of Israel, but I question the vengeful motives of this Qur'an burning fest. Remember Christians, non-believers watch EVERYTHING we do. Make sure you're viewing ALL people through GOD'S eyes - He wants ALL to come to salvation through His Son. What message will this really send? and how does it help the overall cause of stopping the spread of Islam in America (let alone the world)?? It's already causing more violence for our troops - don't let your vengeful urges put them in more danger. Help EDUCATE people - spread the word about the evils of Islam. Provocation will just lead to more innocent lives lost. Christians should have a problem with that - I know I do.
Why burn the Koran...
When you can make a movie and call it "Machete"?
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010/09/03/james-p-pinkerton-machete-movie-review-drug-war-mexico-reconquista/
Methods are different but effect is the same. They are basically throwing a match in the kindlewood of a different issue.
Dove Outreach's goal is to wake people up to Islamic Jihad before its too late. I hope they don't back down. Pretty soon they won't be able to at all if Islam takes over.
Robert (Spencer) asks me:
Let me ask you a question: if something -- anything -- is frowned upon by "our PC MC Masters," must someone in my position therefore endorse it, at the risk of being called a "shrinking violet"?
First, it would depend on what that something is (and that in turn would depend on its relevance to the concerns of the still inchoate anti-Islam movement). I never implied that I eschew a casuistic approach; quite the contrary.
Second, I'm obviously not advocating that we endorse a position because our PC MC Masters frown on it. What I was clearly describing was the problem of the tendency to fail to support a position -- to shrink back from supporting a position -- for fear of what our PC MC Masters will say about us, or do to us.
In reality, I couldn't care less about "our PC MC Masters"...
Spencer's rather frequent concerns in a variety of contexts to avoid giving the Mainstream fuel to vilify the still inchoate anti-Islam movement would indicate that he does care about what they think. And it's arguably reasonable to care, since the Mainstream enjoys a monopoly on sociopolitico-cultural power. Since, however, the Mainstream tends to vilify those whom they merely suspect -- often irrationally -- of breaking any one or more of the PC MC Commandments, it seems to make little difference to them whether a person comes out and says "I oppose Islam" or says "I do not oppose Islam, but I am only calling attention to what the mainstream schools of Islamic law state" -- the Mainstream will tend to treat both of them the same way (as Spencer indicated when he wrote that he has been ...embarking on a course that has them calling me "racist," "bigot," "hatemonger" and worse on a more or less daily basis -- notwithstanding the fact that he never has said he opposes Islam, or that he opposes Muslims, or that he hates Islam, or that he hates Muslims, or that all Muslims are dangerous, or that even "most" Muslims are dangerous.
As the years go by, and as the full horror of Islam becomes clearer, one begins to long for a Harry Trumanesque bluntness about it.
As for the concrete example of Koran-burning: I don't see why one cannot simultaneously support an ongoing investigation and elucidation of the contents of the Koran (which, perforce, would entail a condemnation of the Koran -- a condemnation only augmented were one to supplement that investigation and elucidation with Islamic exegesis, history and the news), while at the same time support the unremarkable rightfulness of burning or otherwise expressing profound contempt for the Koran as a matter of principle: the principle, that is, that avows the spiritually, intellectually, morally and socially pernicious nature of that book. (For the latter of the two simultaneous stances, incidentally, one need not actually participate in a Koran-burning; nor does one have to go out of one's way and stand on a rooftop to declare it with a bullhorn.) There are plenty of Korans in existence to make the activity of burning them obviously a symbolic act and not an attempt to actually rid the world of their physical existence; and so, a massive surplus would be left over for us to continue to investigate and elucidate.
"Machete" is going to fuel the fervor of the pro-illegal immigration crowd and incite more violence against people within this country. Having a largely advertised, massive "Burn the Qur'an Day" on 9-11 has already fueled the fervor of OUR nation's biggest enemy. How is that beneficial to the cause of stopping the Islamization of America? I'm not denying one's "right" to burn a Qur'an - I'm questioning the implementation of that right under the current circumstances. In addition to our military, other good people are being put at risk and will become scapegoats for this - Robert Spencer, Pam Geller, Wafa Sultan, Walid Shoebat and many more - ALL who have put themselves on the line to get the truth out on Islam through more conventional, yet effective means. We've become far too impatient in this nation - people are starting to get a clue as more and more info. comes out. We're dealing with a whole different cultural mindset here people - one can't even draw Muhammad without getting a death threat, so what do you think burning a bunch of Qur'ans with the whole Muslim world watching, is going to cause? Do you really think this will scare them? For all who have been senselessly killed/beaten/raped at the hands of Muslim ideologues - I hope this Dove church has truly sought God's guidance in their decision. Who knows - this may be enough to provoke some Iranian cleric to declare war on US...
my only concern of this nonevent is that innocent american lives may be lost becos of this and im sure most of the people who are goin to participate in this wont be having relatives in the marines fightin in pakistan and afghanistan. do it by all means get ur guys out of those shit holes first and close ur borders permanently from those islamic pigs
Hesperado
Without accepting your characterization of my work or statements, which I do not consider accurate, let me ask you one further question: why don't you approach the problem the way you wish to see it approached?
I am saying what I believe to be true and going about matters the best way I know how to do. Your accusation of PC trimming is entirely unfounded, and, in a word, laughable. I've assessed the problem accurately to the best of my knowledge, and have never and would never prescind from stating the nature of the problem in entirely accurate terms to the best of my judgment.
You don't like what I say, and don't agree with it, and are sure that I must not really mean it and am trimming. Very well. You're wrong, but who cares? I invite you to do this job properly, and show us all how it is done.
I do not have and have never claimed any leadership role in your so-called "still inchoate anti-jihad movement." I do not have and have never claimed any monopoly on commentary or activism on these issues. As I have told you before, there is no movement, only individuals, some good, some bad, all doing what they think best by their lights. Nothing is stopping you from entering the fray. No one anointed me your leader, and I hereby and immediately step down. Instead of spending all your time in the comments section of a blog criticizing someone else's work, I invite you to do your own. It does mystify me that so many individuals on our side or putatively on our side -- many far more prominent than you -- seem to think it more important to shy bricks at those who are working instead of doing some work yourselves, and the number of such individuals seems to grow daily. Personally, I am more interested in working than in detracting from the work of others in the same line. Time, after all, is short, and the work is large, and it may be that some whose approach I don't agree with 100% will accomplish something I am not able to accomplish, and I will not interfere with that possibility by trying to discredit them or tarnish their efforts.
But that's just me. You might find that things look different from within the arena -- or maybe you won't, but there's only one way to find out. Write your own books, stage your own events, do your own work -- and as I said, show us all how it should be done.
I would only ask that when your first book appears, you'd be so kind as to send me an autographed copy.
Cordially
Robert Spencer
The argument that the Koran book burning will cause more US military deaths is specious. Our troops are already in harms way on a daily basis with thugs who pray and worship from the Koran. If the "moderate" Muslims become upset enough to blow things up and kill people because of a book burning in FL, then they were going that route anyways. Will Taliban use it as a proaganda tool? Probably and they twist anything around to suit their needs.
Just look at the opposition to the GZ Mosque. If we stay quiet about the GZ Mosque, it gets built and the Muslims rejoice with their "Victory Mosque". If we speak out against the GZ Mosque, the Taliban use it to further their recruiting and propaganda needs. It's a case of "Damned if you do, Damned if you don't". I think its time to stop worrying about what the Muslim world thinks and get people to wake up to what is happening in this country and around the world before it's too late.
The book burning is one church's way to do that. It has already proven the point to many how hypocritical Muslims are. I just wish the Mainstream Media was there to point out how hypocritical they are. Muslims protest the book burning, but nary a peep regarding the calls for beheading of Geert Wilders, or the condemnation of Iran for plans to stone the woman.
The Pastor of this church ties the events of 9/11 with the dictates in the Koran twards the infidel. How he, or his church as a collective community, choose to express their displeasure with a book that demands their destruction or subjugation is as valid a voice of repudation as any post on JW. Those saying book burning, blah-blah, whatever their argument against it, are playing their own personal PC card. Calling a cult supermacist or burning it's tomb. You'll garner zip brownie points for nuance, nor should any be awarded in my book.
Robert,
Overall and generally speaking, your suggestion is constructive -- i.e., ...why don't you approach the problem the way you wish to see it approached?
Just a couple of corrections:
You don't like what I say, and don't agree with it, and are sure that I must not really mean it and am trimming.
I've never said I am "sure" you are PC trimming. As I articulated at great length in several articles (also with the help of other Jihad Watch commenters, whom I quoted there, who at the time engaged you in mini-debates on various comments sections concerning issues surrounding this particular problem) on my now retired blog Jihad Watch Watch, there remain a few seeming incoherencies in your stance vis-a-vis Islam which cannot seem to be resolved without either positing conscious "trimming" or basic incoherency on certain points. But as that is a complex issue I've already hashed and rehashed (as did those aforementioned Jihad Watch commenters), I won't go into it now. You reiterate above that you sincerely believe in the various aspects of your stance, and I believe you. That leaves the incoherency problem (which was the main thrust of my analyses on the aforementioned blog).
There remains, however, the fact that you have many times reminded your readers on the wisdom of not giving the Mainstream ammunition by which to vilify your efforts, and this frequent caveat in many different ways and contexts over the years does reflect that you indeed care about how the Mainstream responds to you, despite your having wrote previously above that you "don't care" or "couldn't care less" what they think. (I am not referring here to brazenly outré statements some commenters might make, such as advocating genocide.)
I do not have and have never claimed any leadership role in your so-called "still inchoate anti-jihad movement."
I realize you have never claimed to have a leadership role: that's why I try to phrase it as "unofficial" leadership. You may avow that you do not have it, but an observer cannot help but notice in many ways a growing leadership quality accruing over the years to Robert Spencer, and only increasing with each passing year -- this year, with the crystallization of SIOA and the GZ Mosque issue, particularly galvanizing. Countless readers look up to you in ways that resemble members looking up to a leader, both in your capacity as providing the Jihad Watch website -- which daily stimulates discussion with Robert Spencer always in the back of our minds as the director and editorializer par excellence of the still inchoate community -- and in your capacity as public speaker, debater -- and now increasingly: activist. Your increasing notoriety over the years is also an important ingredient in the quality of leadership.
As for your brusque dismissal of my descriptive phrase -- viz., ...your so-called "still inchoate anti-jihad movement" -- this reflects an even broader myopia than the one that would limit your role to being just some guy with books who happens to fly around a lot making speeches about Islam. Not only are the signs of a still growing, still coalescing, yet still amorphous (hence "still inchoate") movement evident all around us over the past few years -- such a movement would seem to be a necessary precondition for effecting sociopolitical change in the long run. Indeed, one can't galvanize an effective demonstration against the GZ Mosque, without the rudiments of a movement: and one could galvanize a much more effective one than will materialize this Saturday, if an organized movement were already in place, whose growth had been nurtured over the years. I.e., future demonstrations and other shows of public will can only be helped by a movement that is no longer inchoate -- or at least less so than it is now.
As for your characterization of my critiques -- ...spending all your time in the comments section of a blog criticizing someone else's work... seem to think it more important to shy bricks at those who are working instead of doing some work yourselves... ...detracting from the work of others in the same line...trying to discredit them or tarnish their efforts -- they could be reducible to all these obviously pejorative traits; or they could be constructive criticism. I never could understand that mindset that seems to see all criticism as automatically destructive attacks.
Your final paragraph --
But that's just me. You might find that things look different from within the arena -- or maybe you won't, but there's only one way to find out. Write your own books, stage your own events, do your own work -- and as I said, show us all how it should be done
-- seems to imply that you think criticism is worthless unless someone "gets in the fray" -- the "fray" defined, of course, as participating in public speeches, debates and demonstrations. I've never understood that mindset either. I would never think of denigrating someone for participating in public events as doing something worthwhile; so why are some so eager to do the reverse? The life of the intellect is an important part of the res publica, and has been in the West for centuries. Certainly, oftentimes individuals have combined the two endeavors. That's good too. All three are good and useful. Why is only one of them, or two of them, good and useful?
The Pastor did make a good point. He merely threatens to burn Qurans and the Muslim and dhimmi world gets hysterical and condemns him, and the world is told that any Muslim retaliation would be justified. A giant mosque is being built over the ruins of 9/11 with Saudi jihad money and those American citizens who oppose it are ridiculed and ignored and told to be "tolerant" of the desecration. It is the unofficial global enforcement of Sharia law, which claims worldwide jurisdiction. Can anyone foresee the next step?