Petraeus, instead of standing for the freedom of expression and teaching about American values, is reinforcing the idea that violent intimidation works. "David Petraeus And The Koran Burnings," by Erick Erickson in RedState, September 8 (thanks to Inexion):
David Petraeus is right.That church burning the korans in Florida will incite muslims to kill Americans, particularly American soldiers.
Why? Well, in part, because David Petraeus and the media have decided to magnify the event and guarantee it'll be featured on the front page of every major newspaper in the Middle East.
Ramzy Kilic of the Council on American-Islamic Relations surprisingly sounds wisest here:
"He just wants to provoke the Muslim community," he said. "Why give him attention? No one pays attention to the drunkard walking down the street."
Let's not, however, be fooled by the thinking that this act will incite Islamists in some special way. If Islamists did not have koran burnings to incite them to kill Americans, they would just find something else. Heck, they may go back to soldiers in Iraq using the koran for target practice.
I think it is bad form for the military to start applying pressure to influence the political activities (and this is clearly a form of political speech) of American civilians. Petraeus is essentially attributing direct responsibility for American deaths to the activities of American citizens (and I hasten to point out that he made no similar public pronouncement about the activities of antiwar demonstrators who, at least arguably, caused American deaths by giving the jihadis reason to believe they could drive us out of Iraq given enough casualties).
Ultimately, this issue is not about tolerance of Islam, but about fear of Islam.
The elite in this country have no problem with American flag burnings or Bible burnings. Heck, the American military burned a pile of Bibles lest proselytizing happen.
No Christians went out and beheaded troops or media talking heads. There were no riots in the streets of Washington, D.C. by aggrieved Christians.
Contrast that with the Islamic world. Show a cartoon of Mohammed, you die. Burn a koran, you die. Reject the faith, you die.
Ultimately, and what is too politically incorrect for the media or David Petraeus to say, is that Islam is largely incompatible with Western values when significant portions of the religion -- not just the fringe -- are driven to riot over koran burnings, cartoons of Mohammed, and the like.
More specifically, Petraeus's actions teach the same lesson to both us and the Islamists that the Mohammed cartoon did: Islamists learned if they are sufficiently violent Western governments and elites will fold like a cheap suit and we learned that Islam, as practiced by large swaths of the muslim world, is a violent religion that apparently can't operate in tandem with a civil society....
Petraeus on Qur'an burning reinforces lesson that if Islamic supremacists "are sufficiently violent Western governments and elites will fold like a cheap suit"
I think that will bend like overcooked spaghetti is more like it to describe their gutlessness and willingness to appease mahoundians.
And one more thing... The bending is sure to be done facing the direction of the giant black cube.
Bibles were confiscated, destroyed and burned by the US Army to appease the muslims. The US Army spokesman said that in Afghanistan. The video is clear (51st second to 1 min 6 seconds). The US Army burned Bibles in 2009:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_m0FQ6GdGVM&feature=channel
Let's spread this to the blogosphere and remind the public about the double standards.
Robert Spencer wrote:Ultimately, and what is too politically incorrect for the media or David Petraeus to say, is that Islam is largely incompatible with Western values when significant portions of the religion -- not just the fringe -- are driven to riot over koran burnings, cartoons of Mohammed, and the like.
Given that Mr Spencer has, since the very inception of JW, been so very careful not to indict the whole of Islam, and therefore allow for the eventual reformation of Islam, this statement is an indication of even his patience running out.
And yet, what is one to do? Given Mr Spencer's extensive knowledge of Islam, that Islam is largely incompatible with Western values (for all practical purposes, incompatible), then the growing Muslim population in the West poses an existential problem of a kind that has never been faced by the West. Other serious challenges were either external or of a nature that were quickly defeated. Islam on the other hand has been allowed to settle behind enemy lines so to speak ( TM - Hugh Fitzgerald), acquire citizenship, given preference in the institutions of power and authority, and even coddled and protected while they (Muslims) plotted to mass murder (Fort Hood).
This situation is quite bizarre - in fact abnormal. Nothing like this has ever happened in history of the West, so there is no precedence to look to.
In a previous thread, and in many other threads before, despite the many concerted efforts to provide a solution to the Islam dilemma, the conclusion was that the koran/Islam was unchanging. There may be Hudna type accommodations to Infidel power, but when the moment was right, the unchanging nature of the canon of Islam would re-assert itself.
We are thus left in a situation of 'damned if we do, and damned if we dont' The choice is which of the 'damned'.
You stated succinctly and aptly the unique dilemma the West (and all the non-Muslim world) faces. There's never been anything like Islam before and it's going to be damn hard to deal with this well diguised (to many) form of aberrant thinking.
Having just read Mitchell Bard's book on the influence of The Arab Lobby, particularly among those in the Pentagon,and the State Department, Gen. Petreus' comments come as no surprise. I am not saying that he is being disengenuous about the safety of his troops, but quite the opposite. It is the information and propoganda that he is fed over time that could lead him to that conclusion. Remember when he went on his fact finding trip to the Middle East and came back with the ususal nonsense that the Israeli/Palestinian problem was at the root of all of the Middle Easts problems? But he also only spoke to the dictators, tyrants and of course the Saudis, whose line that has been from the beginning. He and his handlers conveniently forgot about these dictators fascist hold over their own countries could be the impetus for their peole's discontent, not the Jews.
On another note, the fact that the MSM is making a big deal over those morons in Florida is not surprising. They use any chance to try to show conservatives of any bent as racist loons in order to denigrate the entire idea of national self-defense and to give impetus to the poor misbegotten misunderstand Jihadi. You know those Islamo-fascists that are just so misunderstood and would come around to our way fo thinking if you jsut gave them a hug.
Meanwhile when a society does start with book burning, it ususally ends up with people burning and is not something to be taken lightly either.
Inasmuch as hundreds of millions of muslims around the world are barely literate and are fed a diet of hate by the muslim-controlled media and imams operating in the countries in which they live, it's obvious the antics of one inflammatory minister will get lost in the sauce.
Moreover, Petraeus and other well meaning Americans seem oblivious to the fact that the muslim media and imams fabricates stories about non-muslims day and night. What's one more?
Sadly, Petraeus shows little understanding of the muslim mind, which, in short, is easily swayed by stories of non-muslim mischief -- true or not.
Meanwhile, is there evidence that claims of US military personnel urinating on Korans at the Guantanamo prison, by itself, led to anti-US violence in the muslim world? Or were the weeks following the urination stories just weeks of typical muslim violence.
Claiming that muslims will try even harder to kill US troops because they've been told about a Koran bonfire in Florida is like claiming wife-beating increases on Super Bowl Sunday -- A Fiction Created by Media People who, like all media people, have trouble with facts, especially numbers.
Remember in the good old days when this was the mantra?
Proclamation 5034—Afghanistan Day, 1983
By the President of the United States of America, 21 March 1983
"The tragedy of Afghanistan continues as the valiant and courageous Afghan freedom fighters [The Taliban] persevere in standing up against the brutal power of the Soviet invasion and occupation. The Afghan people are struggling to reclaim their freedom, which was taken from them when the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan in December of 1979.
In this three-year period the Soviet Union has been unable to subjugate Afghanistan. The Soviet forces are pitted against an extraordinary people who, in their determination to preserve the character of their ancient land, have organized an effective and still spreading countrywide resistance. The resistance of the Afghan freedom fighters is an example to all the world of the invincibility of the ideals we in this country hold most dear, the ideals of freedom and independence."
" when a society does start with book burning, it ususally ends up with people burning ...."
That is one of the oft-repeated, profound-sounding and seldom challenged gibberish.
Could you please identify the chain of causal connection between book burning and people burning?
The American army in 2009 has burned thousands of Bibles does it mean it is now reasonable to expect people burning in America? How soon? What category of people?
No, you got the things exactly backward; it is when a society is led by totalitarian ideology ready to burn people to realize its vision of better humanity it will usually do some book burning before.
Here is an article on CNN from May 22, 2009. Apparently it is okay for the government to burn bibles, but it is not okay for citizens to burn the Quran. Here's the link.
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/05/20/us.military.bibles.burned/index.html
(CNN) -- Military personnel threw away, and ultimately burned, confiscated Bibles that were printed in the two most common Afghan languages amid concern they would be used to try to convert Afghans, a Defense Department spokesman said Tuesday.
Afghan workers enter a walkway on March 3, 2009, at Bagram Air Base, Afghanistan.
The unsolicited Bibles sent by a church in the United States were confiscated about a year ago at Bagram Air Base in Afghanistan because military rules forbid troops of any religion from proselytizing while deployed there, Lt. Col. Mark Wright said.
Such religious outreach can endanger American troops and civilians in the devoutly Muslim nation, Wright said.
"The decision was made that it was a 'force protection' measure to throw them away, because, if they did get out, it could be perceived by Afghans that the U.S. government or the U.S. military was trying to convert Muslims," Wright told CNN on Tuesday.
Troops at posts in war zones are required to burn their trash, Wright said.
The Bibles were written in the languages Pashto and Dari.
This decision came to light recently, after the Al Jazeera English network aired video of a group prayer service and chapel sermon that a reporter said suggested U.S. troops were being encouraged to spread Christianity.
"This was irresponsible and dangerous journalism sensationalizing year-old footage of a religious service for U.S. soldiers on a U.S. base and inferring that troops are evangelizing to Afghans," Col. Gregory Julian said.
The military says a soldier at Bagram received the Bibles and didn't realize he wasn't allowed to hand them out. In the Al Jazeera video, which shows the Bibles at the prayer service, an unnamed soldier says members of his church raised money for them.
The chaplain later corrected the soldier and confiscated the Bibles, Wright said.
Military officers considered sending the Bibles back to the church, he said, but they worried the church would turn around and send them to another organization in Afghanistan -- giving the impression that they had been distributed by the U.S. government.
That could lead to violence against troops or U.S. civilians, Wright said.
Al Jazeera English, a Qatar-based international news service, said its reporters tried to get a response from military officials for its story but were unable to do so.
The U.S. military air base at Bagram is home to thousands of troops from all branches of the U.S. military. The vast majority of the troops do not leave the base and are in various support roles for U.S. troops across Afghanistan.
"Meanwhile when a society does start with book burning, it usually ends up with people burning"
Ridiculous.
This glib paraphrasing of Heinrich Heine is getting really old.
Americans aren't Nazis and have no intention of ever "burning" people.
I can understand why someone might want to burn the Qur'an. When you finish reading it, you feel like you've been ripped off. There is no consistancy, context or clarity. A waste of ink.
When will the public know that Hitler's Hitler, that charles manson is charles manson, that david koresh is david koresh, and that crazy mulisms are crazy mulisms.
You can't reason with them. Today, it's burn the koran tomorrow it's something else. I agree with the pastor (not with burning of the koran because it displaces the 9/11 message) with the freedom of speech.
And, btw where were the protest when the bibles were beign burnt? Where were the protest when a painting of Jesus Christ was done using fecses?
Because this book burning is being done by a pastor and is church connected, it is a religious ritual...Fire is purifying, it burns the evil out of our midst...In this ritual, it is being used to banish Allah...The problem with this semi magickal approach is that it won't work...Fire is the wrong element because fire expands...It is counter productive to expand Islam...That's why if you want to put a fire out, you don't fan it...What we want is for Islam to contract...Fire expands, but it is water that contracts...
There are water rituals more suitable for contracting Islam, but it is up to the pastor to figure out what they are and conduct them...
Got'cha, chuck a quran in the pool. that'll do it.
Actually, DP, that snippet is from the article itself.
Got'cha, chuck a quran in the pool. that'll do it.
That's close enough for government work...There are a number of wet rituals that have merit...
A friend asked me what I thought about the book burning event. I thought about it for a moment and honestly while it's not the way I would have gone I understand why Rev. Jones is doing it. He's making a point, something that we're supposed to give Muslims the benefit of the doubt on whenever they shake some company down so one of their girls that's supposed to stay home anyway can express her Islamic "right" to wear a hijab at a public place where it doesn't belong. But now it's gotten much bigger than that. Now it's about not being dictated to by an unpleasant group in our midst that has a long standing history of dictating what is acceptable behavior to others and getting violent if that dictation is not followed, cheerfully. Rev Jones has to go through with this now (thanks to all the Islamic big mouths and whiners out there) and from what I've read about him he certainly will.
Koranic book burning? What goes around comes around.
For all his military brilliance, Petraeus is just like Sheriff Rutherford, and too many others, in this link:
http://freemendo.typepad.com/undaunted/2010/08/why-bad-guys-do-so-well-in-gunfights-httpwwwpoliceonecomofficer-shootingsarticles2056185-why-do-bad-guys-seem-to-do-s.html#tp
Burn, mock, moon and drive 'em crazy. It brings the poison to the surface, the Islamic insanity and psychotic anger for all to see. As a Catholic, I know that Islam is not 'another religion' it is a truly vile heresy of Christianity. Father Zakarios, the Coptic priest, in his radio talks mocks, ridicules and totally demolishes the Koran and the Hadith and Muhammad in a way that makes 'burning' it look weak in comparison! He has over 60 million Muslim listeners (mostly in secret) and has saved millions from the cult of madness.
The rationale that burning a Quran will incite Muslims to violence is false. Islamic ideology does not need any excuse to engage in violence other than perhaps greed or hatred. The first Islamic terrorist attack was in 623 AD against a innocent Quraysh merchant caravan at Nakhlah during the sacred month when such attacks were forbidden. Besides the "booty," one man was killed and two others were taken for ransom. The justification is recorded in Surah 2:217: "Oppression [of which there was none in this case]is worse than killing." Any refusal to submit to Islam is an act of aggression in the ideology of Islam.
This is quite a disappointment. I can see the Pandering President preaching to the victim industry with great drama.
But, Petraeus?
That gives more credence to the extremes of both sides. Jones probably realized sudden windfall in donations. But Medina and Mecca receive more than money can buy.
" Surah 2:217: "Oppression [of which there was none in this case]is worse than killing." Any refusal to submit to Islam is an act of aggression in the ideology of Islam."
As you can read, this is, in Islamic and Islamophile eyes, is more than refusal.
And, while I'm writing; consider the greater danger; Islamophobia - the irrational fear, or Islamophilia; the irrational passion.
Why didn't the Prez, the General, and the Secretary of State jump down the throat of Time's Islamophobe cover? Pointing out American's seemingly intolerance of Islam doesn't add fuel to Jihadi fire?
What needs to be focused on and what the Media never addresses is that the Quran Burning hasn't even happened , yet , or may not at all , and the retaliation is already underway. The threats are already starting. where is the examination of that mentality and where it is rooted? Just goes to further prove the intolerance of Islam and the hair trigger reactions to threats real and perceived. Just like the ground zero mosque Imam saying that we better do this Mosque thing right or the Muslim world could retaliate against us. Is there ever going to be a day when THAT sort of statement and is examined for what it is in the mainstream ? The mainstream never gives this sort of attention to Muslims burning or urinating on Bibles. Muslims Burning Flags. Muslims shouting for the destruction of Democracy . Muslims and their Violence towards Women and minorities . Their punishments toward "alleged" offenders of their faith etc. why is this never on the table? why can't the average person see the double standard , the hypocrisy? because Islam has conditioned us to be afraid and we are afraid and we'll persecute rational and tolerant people who are defending the rights and freedoms of us all and those who point out what should be obvious regarding this Ideology .
The entirety of Obama’s chosen war strategy hinges on one premise: To win the hearts and minds of the Afghan people. The assumption is that people of islamic countries can and will some day love America. If this is not so we will fail miserably in the long run. The very doctrines of islam and it’s prophet who murdered for conquest and commanded violence by those loyal to the koran will forever undermine any long-term hope that the supremacist aspirations of islamic countries will be ever be checked voluntarily. Thereby Obama and Petraus are in fact sacrificing what must be a long term goal, our future security , for the short term appeasing of frothing mullas and deranged islamic zombies.
Gen Petraeus is sounding like a ninny instead of behaving like a commanding General of the finest fighting force in the world bar none - the U.S.Army. He should get rid of the stupid R.O.E. his men are handicapped by and step aside. The U.S.Army is capable of taking care of itself against anything the Mahoundians can throw at them.
I'm a magician too. I was going to burn the damn thing, but now I will drown it in the river, with, perhaps a few bacon slices, and the Fatiha recited backwards.
Excellent article posted by Mr. Spencer!
This is why the FACTS ABOUT ISLAM MUST BE MADE WIDELY PUBLIC IN THE MSM AS FAST AS POSSIBLE!
Pretty soon the FBI will start suppressing facts, like they are putting pressure on the Koran burners.
We are headed for dhimmitude in the "blink of an eye" in cultural terms when Iran has a nuke. We may soon be facing dhimmi laws inhibiting free speech in the interests of national security.
According to general Petraeus burning the Koran would jeopardize the life of American troops in Afghanistan.
Which army is this general in command of? The Salvation Army?
This is still a relatively low number of respondents...less than 50. Beyond that, it gets a little monotonous reading ALL of the views, opinions, historical and political knowledge comments, etc.
Can anyone advise on proper actions to take? How to contact representatives, congressmen, senators, etc.? How to petition larger groups? (I'm reading responses that can range from large essays to college term papers).
Feel free to email: pfdelaup@gmail.com.
B.Hussein, H.Rod'em, and Gen.Betrayus react to the news:
1) Iran is building nuclear bombs:
"Yawn... ho hum... so what?"
2) Some people are burning Korans:
"No, they can't do that! It'll make Muslims mad which might endanger the troops!"