Because nothing -- nothing! -- says "Religion of Peace and Tolerance" quite like beating up on a bunch of monks!
At issue here once again is the provision in Islamic law that forbids dhimmis, or non-Muslims subjugated under Islamic law's holy protection racket, from repairing their houses of worship or building new ones, as notably described in the Pact of Umar.
Again, apologists have insisted to us and to others that the Pact of Umar is a dead document. Say what they will, pooh-poohing the Pact for Western consumption does nothing to improve the treatment of religious minorities in Muslim lands, where the practices it outlines have a curious habit of persisting.
And we sure didn't make them up. "Egyptian security forces storm the Monastery of St Macarius, three monks badly injured," from Asia News, September 15:
Cairo (AsiaNews/Agencies) - Hundreds of Egyptian security forces, backed by a large number of cars and armoured vehicles, attacked the monastery of St Macarius of Alexandria in Wadi Rayan, Fayoum Province, 150 kilometres south of Cairo. The action began at 8 pm on 7 September, but news about it only filtered recently. About 300 agents took part in the assault, using tear gas, batons and stones against monks, three of whom were seriously wounded.
According to the AINA news agency, security forces prevented the delivery of limestone bricks for the construction of cells for the monks inside the ancient Monastery. They also tried to seize the bricks already delivered but the monks sat on them, refusing to move.
The issue concerns the ownership of the area and its use, with monks and the government holding different positions.
The authorities claim that Wadi Rayan is a conservation area that cannot be touched. The monks say they must build cells inside the monastery, which goes back long before it was ever designated as a conservation area.
Excessive force, to say the least, for a putative land use/code compliance issue.
Security forced surrounded the Monastery until 12 AM the following day, but withdrew "after seeing the insistence of monks to assert their rights," said Fr Boulos el-Makkary, one of the 85 monks living in the monastery. "They left with the commander promising to be back soon."
"The monks believe that the government wants to prevent any construction on the premises to prevent any increase in the number of monks living there, even though cells for the monks are badly needed," Father Boulos added.
At present, cells are shared by five to eight monks even though each should have his own.
The Monastery of St Macarius, also known as the "Buried Monastery" since most of its cells are caves in the mountain, has been uninhabited for a long time because of the lack of electricity and water. However, in 1996 monks began living there permanently and obtained permission from the Minister of Environment.
One of Canada's national newspapers today, The National Post, is running part two of a four part series on Islam, written by well-known historian Martin Gilbert. Today's instalment is on "dhimmitude." It is not a piece many of us here would have written, and not one many of us will find attractive; but that it appears at all, and with the word "dhimmitude" in its title, is a major coup for us, I think so.
Even if others now have a silly understanding of dhimmitude, this kind of publicity gives some of us a chance to further the understanding of those who yesterday might never have seen the term in their lives. I think this is a great step forward. Even if Jihad Watch has a larger audience than most newspapers, that doesn't mean many people will know of dhimmitude at all. I take what I can get and I'm satisfied with it. I hope we can all see this as positive.
http://www.nationalpost.com/todays-paper/rules+dhimmitude/3525668/story.html
We can now raise the term and say to those who don't know it, "But, it's in the National Post." And if one raises an issue such as stoning Coptic priests, one can say, "Such is dhimmitude in practice." You know dhimmitude. It's in the papers all the time.
The Pact of Umar? Really? So I suppose that the Code of Justinian is a valid document concerning modern Orthodox Christianity complete with its rules concerning members of other religions... (who weren't considered citizens with full rights)
Sure! We'll just say that all of these medieval documents from saintly political figures are living, breathing documents that are adhered to by modern folk!
I lol'd.
Our idiotic troll doesn't get it that mohametans are still oppressing non mohametans in their midst even to this day. So it is an idiot. And it is an apologist for evil. But the nabi repeats himself.
nabi ZK (pbum)
Qur'an? Hadiths? Sirah? Who but a goof would believe any of that shite? Isn't that right, mate? No one is going to believe a word of such outright tripe. Especially not you.
The jihad-deniers will keep saying Islam is a religion of peace right up until the mahoundians start hacking at their necks with knives.
Such is the state of incredible stupidity and ignorance that pervades western civilization.
Hi Dag! How have you been? Funny, and coincidental too, that certain vitriolic commenters would show up about right now...LOL! Of course, the latest guest ed on ER'sB is COMPLETELY unrelated to any of them, ya' know:
http://eleanorruth.typepad.com/blog/2010/09/ersb-guest-editorial-stoning-women-to-death-is-far-better-than-what-those-zionist-jew-terrorists-did-60-some-years-ago.html
Comment, Imam Rauf?
May the vector of a Morning Star draw a silver arc o'er you nabi ZK. gerbiltea must needs to be prayed for 'afore the demon(s) depart him. Yes, it's veritably galling to even contemplate doing such, yet The Master advocated doing so. . .'be ye as wise as serpents, yet as innocent as doves'. . .y'see that way fox the wolves.
Maybe it's time we jihadwatchers started holding sit-ins in solidarity with the persecuted Copts, outside the Egyptian embassies in our respective countries.
Copts in exile *have* held protest marches in Australia, Canada and the USA and, I believe, in France, trying to raise awareness of what the Muslims are doing to them in Egypt.
Let's keep our eyes and ears open and, when such marches are held in cities that we inhabit or to which we can afford to travel, make every effort to attend.
Marches describing and deploring, in the strongest possible terms, what Muslims are doing to *all* non-Muslims in Pakistan and Bangladesh would also be in order.
Imagine a mass of protesters - Coptic Christian, Assyrian Christian, Nigerian and Sudanese Christaian, together with Hindus, Christians and Buddhists from Pakistan, Bangladesh, Malaysia and Indonesia - sitting outside the UN with huge printed placards detailing the false accusations, the bullying, the riots and lynchings and murders and mass-murders, the abductions and targeted seduction of girls and women, the acts of petty and gross discrimination as regards employment, education, public office, etc., that have gone on and go on inside all OIC countries, whether in lesser or greater degree.
I can tell, Eleanor. Very excellent.
Best, Dag.
@dda:
You know as well as I do, that protesting would be expressing Islamophobia and harassment of Muslims, it would be hate mongering and war mongering. The Interfaith bridge builders would be out in force, their hurt idealism demonstrating a total inability to accept realities or even a willingness to try.
Again, apologists have insisted to us and to others that the Pact of Umar is a dead document. Say what they will, pooh-poohing the Pact for Western consumption does nothing to improve the treatment of religious minorities in Muslim lands, where the practices it outlines have a curious habit of persisting.
And we sure didn't make them up.
Yes indeed: we didn't make them up. The practices it outlines have a curious habit of persisting. And the soldiers of Allah have a curious habit of following Koran, sira & hadith.
What to do, what to do?
I would suggest you take some time out and do some close reading, like many of us did already, and learn about our implacable enemies, how else will we learn how to defeat them?
Your reason for Muslim insistance that non-Muslims do not build or repair their churches or houses of worship is....?
Nothing. No other reason.
Don't see anyone else using medieval codes. Just Muslims. Just crazy, jinn-in-the-bathroom Muslims.
""The monks believe that the government wants to prevent any construction on the premises to prevent any increase in the number of monks living there, even though cells for the monks are badly needed," Father Boulos added.
I believe the Muslims don't want them practicing their religion and probably want to put the monks in some cells in the prison down the road.....
Medieval is not a religion...
Medieval codes...Medieval is a time period...When society and civilization advances, some of it's codes become outdated and are dropped...Islam has no expiration date, so it's codes are
never outdated...Gerbil may not think the code of Umar applies, but his brothers do...He should be 'reasoning' with them...
"The authorities claim that Wadi Rayan is a conservation area that cannot be touched. The monks say they must build cells inside the monastery, which goes back long before it was ever designated as a conservation area."
Oh no! They are converting to Earth First!
"The Monastery of St Macarius, also known as the "Buried Monastery" since most of its cells are caves in the mountain, has been uninhabited for a long time because of the lack of electricity and water."
So the monks got soft in recent years? Of course, that's it! No other reason why the monastery had been abandoned?!
and Eygpt is currently ruled by the dying, "moderate" Mubarak. Will his heir apparent son be able to keep his foot on the neck of the jihadists? If the gypos are currently beating up Christian monks what happens when the REAL jihadists get loose?
Please explain how Justinian was a religious leader, and how his Code was a religious document. I really don't see the connection you are trying to make.
This is one more example that Islam and Islamic law is unethical by any civilized standard. Islam and Islamic law not only teach bigotry and discrimination but it physically constrain's, dhimmify's, subordinate's, and steal's the life-blood through taxes from certain unwanted individuals and groups according to the Koran.
Islamic teaching is contrary to the ethics of the ancient philosophers. Islam does not accept the "Golden Rule" or the ancient "Ethics of Reciprocity" as put forth by Greek philosopher Epicurus (341 BC - 270 BC). These and other simple ancient ethical philosophies are what separated uncivilized societies from civil societies.
Once again, Islam proves itself to be a worthless barbarian and uncivilized cult that should be dumped on the trash heap of history.
Tom, Justinian is revered as a saint in the Orthodox Church. I'd say that his spiritual credentials match that of Umar if not exceed them. The point I am making is religious persecution by Muslims of Christians or others is NOT based on the Pact of Umar any more so than such modern persecution from Christianity is based upon the Code of Justinian. Where is the evidence from Marisol and Robert that Islamic authorities are using such a document (which is not canonical for Muslims) as a method for establishing their treatment of non-Muslims?
There is none. This is pure speculation and wild fantasy on the part of some AUTHORS who are not scholars of Islamic history. I repeat, this is NOT a spiritual document...
Gerbil:
I believe I addressed your exact concern in my commentary above.
"...300 Egyptian security forces storm monastery..."
Hmmm...I know...the reports leading to this were garbled and they mistook the monastery for a mosque.
Marisol, from the article you quoted...
" The issue concerns the ownership of the area and its use, with monks and the government holding different positions.
The authorities claim that Wadi Rayan is a conservation area that cannot be touched. The monks say they must build cells inside the monastery, which goes back long before it was ever designated as a conservation area.
"The monks believe that the government wants to prevent any construction on the premises to prevent any increase in the number of monks living there, even though cells for the monks are badly needed," Father Boulos added."
Are these monks political adversaries of a corrupt dictatorship in Egypt? Absolutely. Does that completely explain their troubles with government forces? Yes. Nowhere does this article suggest that Egyptian forces are using a medieval legal document to justify their persecution of monks. Nowhere do the monks themselves claim that this is because of the Pact of Umar.
Time to stop the foolishness! All non-Muslim controlled countries should ban all construction of new Mosque and not allow any rebuilding or modifications to existing Mosques.
GerbilTea has discovered what GerbilTea believes to be an inaccuracy. And because the monks do not claim to be victims of the Pact of Umar, the Pact of Umar has no significance.
It seems to avoid the perception of GerbilTea that the attitudes of the Quran and the real fact of the existence of the Pact of Umar are the foundations for the behavior of the Egyptian authorities. A behavior not uncommon in the Muslim world when Infidels are building places of worship.
dumbledoresarmy. That's an excellent idea which I've been contemplating on for a while. Jewish, Christian, Hindu, Ba'hai, etc human rights and respect/sensitivity training for Muslims around the world, esp in Islamic states. Demonstrations organized by each group in front of embassies. I'd be there!
We can also run "Read a Qu'ran" or Qu'ran Q & A Day to open up interfaith dialogue.
Seriously Gerb. It's all laid out in 9:5 and 9:29. Forget the pact of omar dude. The basis for this is in the korn. I, nabi ZK (pbum), suppose nobody takes that book seriously anymore though. Right Gerb?
nabi ZK (pbum)
Seriously dude. Check it. The polytheists get the choice to convert or die and the book peeps, Christians and Jews, get a third option of protection money. Read the korn and understand. Oh yeah. Out of context. Not in Arabic. Blah blah blah.
Now look at the behavior of mohmetans towards everyone else and not just in Egypt but everywhere. Sure sure it's probably impossible to know what exactly motivates this inhuman, but very mohametan, behavior. Not a whole lot of consolation to the victims in that Gerb.
nabi ZK (pbum)
"...Justinian is revered as a saint in the Orthodox Church. I'd say that his spiritual credentials match that of Umar if not exceed them."
I wouldn't say that, unless you are stating that Umar has little spiritual involvement.
I asked you to explain how Justinian was a religious leader. Being revered does not make one a religious leader. Look at just the 20th century. Maria Goretti is a saint but was far from a religious leader. Jozef Tiso was a religious leader but was as far from a saint as you can get.
You are a fool. The pact of Omar and the other teachings of Sharia enforce attitudes of permanent and supreme hostility toward the infidels and all that is religiously and culturally sacred to them which saturate the Islamic mindset wither or not the average Muslim has ever read the pact. I grew up seeing the scorching hostility of Egyptian Muslims. Educated, illiterate, rich or poor, observant or non-observant, Muslims have this utter hostility instilled in them at an early age.
Where is the Vatican in harshly condemning this and calling for international outrage from Catholics around the
world. Why hasn't the Vatican put Inmam Obama on the carpet and demand that as the leader of the supposedly free world he condemn this act of the Egyptian government.
This is the only continuously inhabited monastery in the world. Before the Islamic era the whole of Egypt was dotted by monastic communities and nunneries. However, one by one, these monasteries were repeatedly destroyed by Islamic rulers or Bedouin Muslim tribes that moved to these areas who slaughtered the monks or sold them to slavery and raped the young nuns and made concubines out of them while killing the old. One can go to St Mary's church in East Brunswick, NJ to see some of the relics of Egyptian monks of Fayoum who were tortured & slaughtered by Muslim soldiers.
See their tortured remains of monks, including child monks (not uncommon in this era of christian children to move to the monstrosities to leave the horrors of life under Islam and practice their religion freely:
http://www.yaso3na.com/4m/showthread.php?t=28115
More pics for Muslim love for Monks:
Notice the tattooed Coptic cross or the wrest of this tortured monk.
http://www.ch-joy.com/photos/uploads/images/ch-joy.com-26706792f5.jpg
They are still doing that in the 21st century.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzxXZeOA6H4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0-NS_VQcrk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7w9VPepDyw&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QDqzkFAgB8&feature=related
rape and torture of girls
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUaGA9Jd0tw
Wake up world.
Thank you for your posts. I had surmised as much.
Muslim love: warning very graphic:
School girls beheaded by an Islamic mob chanting Alahu Akbar in Indonesia:
http://www.nerepublican.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/torture-01.jpg
http://www.islam-watch.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=252:egypt-mob-attacks-christian-man-for-visiting-muslim-brothel&catid=103:islam
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2009/12/coptic-christians-rally-in-new-york-against-egypt-governments-islamic-persecution-killings-destructi.html
http://mychristianblood.blogspirit.com/archive/2006/08/13/the-price-of-refusing-islam.html
http://mychristianblood.blogspirit.com/album/angry_mob_of_muslims_attack_copts_in_a_village_near_luxor_01_06/
Some material, mostly from an earlier thread, which relates relates at least partially to the exchange between Marisol and GerbilTea above:
I’ve encountered multiple authors who indicated that the dhimma rules are still considered relevant today by Muslims. Some examples:
In "Revolt against modernity: Muslim zealots and the west" (1985) Michael Youssef (p. 13) writes:
“In the present post-colonial era, Shaykh al-Azhar, the highest Islamic authority in Egypt, revived the practice of calling the non-Muslims who live in Muslim lands Ahl al-Dhimmah (Dhimmi), i.e., ‘the protected of the state,’ in his message to Christians on 7 January 1983 as reported by the major Egyptian newspaper.4”
In "Human rights: universality and diversity" (2001) Eva Brems (p. 213) notes that
“The dhimmi system no longer exists as such, yet several rules discriminating between Muslims and non-Muslims are still on the books.”
{she goes on to mention the prohibition of marriage between a Muslim woman and a non-Muslim man, and other forms of discrimination}
In "Islam and the secular state: negotiating the future of sharia" (2008) ‘Abd Allah Ahmed Na‘im writes (p.128)
“While that system {of dhimma} is simply untenable as the basis of citizenship in the territorial states where all Muslims live today, it continues to have a strong influence on the attitudes and behavior of Muslims.”
{brackets added}
In "The Monotheists: The Peoples of God" (2003) Francis E. Peters (p. 109) describes the Pact of Umar, and states that it is a forgery, but then adds that it “does embody some of the basic conditions that bind the dhimmis from that day to the present”
In "Civil Society in Southeast Asia" (ed. Hock Guan Lee) (2004), in the chapter "Islam, Constitutional Democracy, and the Islamic State in Malaysia," Patricia Martinez (in pp. 32-35) reports that Al-Mawardi’s Al-ahkam al-sultaniyya (The Ordinances of Government) is still being used in Malaysia. After listing some of the restrictions on dhimmis mentioned in al-Mawardi’s classic text, Martinez writes that: “Some of the above {restrictions} will seem familiar to non-Muslim Malaysians as reasons cited over the years by various local authorities for why it has been so difficult to obtain burial sites, or the stipulations put upon more recent applications of church building plans in the states under the BN government. Al-Mawardi’s has been the authoritative text for many of the ulama of the Jabatan Agama Islam of the various states and other issues described earlier.
“In other words, there are already practices if not policies and laws, where non-Muslim Malaysians are already being treated as dhimmi in a privileging of Islam and Muslims by some state governments, especially those of the BN. If Al-Mawardi’s text continues to define the Islamic state as envisaged by the BN government, and if at a later stage more of his positions about non-Muslims are invoked and implemented, resulting in non-Muslim Malaysians becoming official second-class citizens, these measures would be in conflict with the notion of egalitarian citizenship rights that are endowed upon all Malaysians, as stipulated in the Constitution of Malaysia.”
On pp.194-195 of War and Peace in the Law of Islam (2006, originally 1955),
Majid Khadduri casts doubt on the validity of the idea that the Covenant of Umar was written up by Umar himself, suggesting it was the product of “later generations,” but adds that “The Covenant, however, has juridical significance, because it provides us with a law as codified by the classical jurists and was regarded by all (i.e., by ijma’) as the definitive law governing the relations of the dhimmis with Islam. The juridical validity of this law superceded any possible doubt that might be cast as to its historicity.”
The headline is a warning of what our descendants can expect here in the West, around the middle of the next century on present trends, thanks to the politically-correct 1960s flower children who have literally stripped the West of its manhood.