One double standard leads to another: wherever there is a segment or multiple segments of society who are second-class citizens (women, dhimmis), those classes bear an unfair burden to mollify their overlords by showing that they know their place. Then, to have been involved in a disturbance with a member of the privileged class -- in this case, Muslim men -- is to have gotten out of line, because they enjoy greater rights in the first place.
That doesn't make this consensus among reader comments to this story any less disturbing: Women provoke harassment by not observing proper hijab restrictions. Self control? Self restraint? Personal responsibility? Of course not, these guys been provoked!
Where have we seen that before?
Here is the actual story, which is filed under "Life & Style / Offbeat" at Arab News. "Harrasmap: A counter to web of women's harassment," by Maggie Hyde for the Associated Press, October 26 (thanks to Steffen):
CAIRO: It's a problem nearly every woman in the Egyptian capital has experienced -- leering, whistles, groping or other sexual harassment on Cairo's thoroughfares and backalleys. Soon they'll be able to instantly speak out on the Internet when it happens.
A planned website, Harrasmap, will allow women to quickly report instances of harassment via text message or Twitter, to be loaded onto a digital map of Cairo to show hotspots and areas that might be dangerous for women to walk alone.
The data will be shared with activists, media, and police.
"The whole idea is to have user-generated information," said Engy Ghozlan, one of the volunteer activists organizing the program, which is set to launch in the coming months. Simply feeling that she is not alone, Ghozlan said, can help a woman who is feeling powerless.
"It's actually encouraging to know that," she said.
The map could also give a graphic depiction of the extent of a problem that women say is pervasive in Egypt, but which authorities are only starting to acknowledge. A 2008 survey by the Egyptian Center for Women's Rights found that 83 percent of Egyptian women and 98 percent of foreign women living in Cairo said they had been harassed in some way -- and 62 percent of men admitted to harassing.
But until recently, the issue was rarely dealt with publicly. Only after Web videos of women being molested in the street by crowds of young men during a holiday four years ago did media begin discussing the problem. Since then, a bill outlining criminal punishment for sexual harassment has gone to parliament, though it has yet to vote on it.
There are numerous theories as to why harassment is so common in Cairo. Some attribute it to a growing conservatism spreading the idea that women should stay out of the public sphere. Others cite widespread unemployment among the youth, leaving them bored, frustrated and unable to marry. Many Egyptians see a broader breakdown of courtesy and morals, a malaise from Egypt's poor economy and political stagnation.
Organizers of Harassmap say the problem is not being overblown, effecting [sic] women whether or not they wear the headscarf and reaching the point were women avoid the streets.
And now, readers weigh in. Not all are so callous, but there is a clear majority.
MS - Oct 26, 2010 - 03:54 Not just Cairo. Hyderabad, a metro city in India too has a similar problem. These guys form gangs, and turn onto you if you object. Having two sisters, I've had endless fights with these thugs. Unfortunately, this menace is more prevalent in Muslim suburbs than in Hindu suburbs - what a shame on us as Muslims in general and as men in particular!
It's downhill from here.
ADIL SHAKEEL - Oct 26, 2010 10:45 - The Problem is not with Guys it is with Modernism girls or womens should strictly follow Proper hijab
SHAKEEL - Oct 26, 2010 10:47 - Follow hijab
AZ - Oct 26, 2010 20:40 - Result of not following what islam teaches us about hijab. For sure if any girl wears such tight clothings & walks in public by only covering her head with a tiny scarf for a sake of formality, any guy on the road would like to have a feast for his eyes & gains momentum for his lust. Girls who wears hijab certainly will not experience the same. Check it out...
KHAN - Oct 26, 2010 21:12 - The picture is giving the answer to the problems... Salaam to Prophet Mohammed PBUH, that he says..women should not wear attractive dress, should not so tight that revealed the figure, should not be transparent, should not wear as a dress of opposite sex...
And one from further down the list:
IROSPTZ -Oct 26, 2010 23:53 - if i see girls like these ( in this photo ) i'll will be also in one of the guys who harassing these girls. So girls first try to behave and dress yourself .... i'm giving 100% surety to you that you can go anywhere without the disturbances from these guys.......
What we need is lot of females trained in aikido and Krav Maga to wander around Cairo, et al. Every pinch or grope earns a broken arm, and every comment or whistle gets a punch to the throat and/or a shoe to the face.
It's the same in Turkey. Women are harassed. More foreign women are harassed than native women. Men blame it on the women. Doesn't matter how conservatively the women dress. Hell, I was groped, in the middle of winter, on the bus. I was far from "lustfully" or "sluttily" dressed. Think Nanuk of the North. I was so bundled up even I couldn't tell if I was male or female under all the clothes.
The only women who don't get molested are the ninjas in the head to toe slave rags. It's not a woman problem or a jobless problem. It's an islam problem.
Remember, sexual crimes, especially rapes are not about sex (90 year old women, 300 pound women and 300 pound 90 year old women get raped NO ONE is filled with lust looking at naked 300 pound 90 year old women). Rape is motivated by fear, intimidation, hatred, rage and control. (sounds like a description of islam)
All sex offenders act for reasons of power and control, motivations that accord with the Islamic ethos.
Well Mohammed said women were cattle, kinda makes you wonder what they do with thier cows? It will be a problem until women are allowed tasers, pepper spray, and other means of self defense and are given the right to use them.
Taze a Mighty Manly Muslim in the crotch and see the quality of his harrassment go way down hikll as his thinking brain is overidden with a sudden jolt.
I'm not saying this in defense of Islam, but this is not a problem limited to Muslims. Back in 1985 I went on a middle school trip to Italy, and several of the girls in our group (the blond ones) were pinched in the behind more than once. We were 13 and 14 years old. It was a big culture shock. I don't know if things have improved in the last 25 years. One big difference, I suspect, is that they don't consider it the girls' faults.
Islam is a prescription for many shithead thought patterns and activities. One of them is for men to never quite grow up and to look upon women as objects for a man's pleasure.
One of the reasons (there are so many) I remain optimistic long term that Islam is doomed is that it is inimical to the treatment of women as equals by men. Get the women on your side (other than the brainwashed ones like those in burquas or, as another example, Maureen Dowd) and your two-thirds of the way to victory. I say things are lookin' up.
Long term of course. Short term, and even mid-term, much rot will still occur, courtesy of the world's most regressive, intolerant, violence-prone, childish and stupid major faith of all time. Nothing new here. Islam remains a great burden to all mankind (and even more so to the fairer sex).
The plain and undeniable fact of the matter is that in order be a “good Muslim” a person must become and do evil.
What kind of religion is that?
Do Muslims still believe Muhammad to be perfect and good?
If so how can they condone all of his evil conduct and commandments?
Islam really is a cult, isn't it? ...Uhhhuh...
I am a 1,400 pound ex-Muslim gorilla with a spiderweb site:
http://considerationsofacanadianex-muslim.org
The problem isn't with the women; it's with the walking groins.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4Ube6ZfA24
Sorry guys, that's "Muslim" men. Present company excepted.
It will be a problem until women are allowed tasers, pepper spray, and other means of self defense and are given the right to use them.
Tasers? Try firearms.
I'm sure the Italians, unlike muslims of all cultures, don't think it's the girls' fault.
I am 100% positive the Italians don't scream "I fak u ass!" "I fak u's mom's ass" "I fak u all family's ass! I cut u head! u Prostitute!" When the girl's rebuff their groping.
That's the difference.
Men can take "NO" for an answer. mohammadans no matter where they are from absolutely and every time take a "no" or a reprimand as a personal assault.
God I hate islam and what it does to the human brain.
Someone else on here likened islam to those old anti-drug ad with the frying eggs. It was such an apt comparison.
Excellent idea. Makes me want to start a martial arts school for Muslim girls - oops... I forgot, Muslim men don't like females learning anything.
"Someone else on here likened Islam to those old anti-drug ad with the frying eggs. It was such an apt comparison."
lol, that was me, Istanbul Chick!
And I still stand by the comparison.
As Bas Rutten (Google him) says, "Never underestimate a kick to the groin." Every Muslim woman should learn how to kick a groin so hard that their sandals fly 60 feet. If they did it might be their first taste of freedom from the slavery of Islam, and lead them to finally leaving it.
'I am 100% positive the Italians don't scream "I fak u ass!"
That's the difference.'
Yes, another big difference, for sure.
A few of them who spoke English tried to find out where we were staying. Maybe they were hoping to get lucky (not likely with the chaperones we had), but I didn't get the impression they were thinking about rape or murder.
'Men can take "NO" for an answer. mohammadans no matter where they are from absolutely and every time take a "no" or a reprimand as a personal assault.'
The most the Italians did when we said "no" was chuckle. Well, one of them pretended to cry before he chuckled.
Something like this would be good for reporting Islamic violence and intimidation of non-Muslims.
It would help to report all sorts of incidents and highlight the widespread bigotry, ethnic cleansing, and abuse occurring in most Islamic societies.
It happens *everywhere* in the Muslim world.
Here's another article on the subject, discussed here in December 2009.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2009/12/proof-in-the-heart-of-the-muslim-world-veiling-does-not-gain-women-more-respect.html
Wafa Sultan, I understand, describes male harassment of women in public in Syria, in her book 'A God Who Hates': women all covered up, on the buses, would cringe and cower from their male harassers, like mice trying to evade a hungry cat.
In Pakistan, it's called 'eve-teasing'.
One Pakistani woman actually wrote an article about how wonderful it was to be in a non-Muslim country where men *didn't* harass you that way, blatantly and physically and threateningly, in public, every time you went out.
See 'The Hijab in Pakistan and Norway'
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2005/05/the-hijab-in-pakistan-and-norway.html
"In Pakistan the hijab is simply unable to protect women from being seen as sexual objects in public.
"Women with or without hijab, any kind of hijab, are stared at, followed and harassed by men on roads and streets and at bus stations, shopping malls, and other public places. This harassment of women in public places is known in Pakistan as "Eve-teasing."
"Women in Pakistan experience Eve-teasing wherever they go in the country, although there are variations from region to region, city to city, and even within regions and cities.
"For example, in the northwestern region, the conservative and supposedly most Islamic region of Pakistan, women without or with any kind of hijab are likely to be stared at by nearly ten out of every ten men on roads, streets, shopping malls, etc., while in such cities as Islamabad and Lahore women are likely to be stared at by, for example, four out of every ten men.
"Similarly, women in some regions are most likely to be followed by strange men almost from their doorsteps to their destinations and then back to their doorstep every time they leave their homes.
"Women in some other regions of the country might not be followed every time but often, occasionally, or at least sometimes when they go out in public places. When these women are in a good mood, they jokingly say that they've acquired a free escort or bodyguard.
"But in fact this is no joke. It scares women to death.
"If their father, brother, or husband comes to know about their "escort or bodyguard," the women must surely expect that limitations will be placed on their right to movement outside the home, or, even worse, that they will be the victims of honor killing...
"When I came to Norway in 2002, the first cultural shock I got was that men in public places did not stare at women.
"I had observed and even experienced so much staring by men in Pakistan that I thought it was a universal reality.
"When I found that it was not so in Norway , I was upset for some time. I thought; "Am I so ugly that Norwegian men don't even give me a second look?"
" Soon I realized that men in Norway just don't stare at any women in public places.
"Imagine my feeling of excitement in my exposure to Norwegian society when I discovered that Eve-teasing is not a universal reality.
"This is one of the most cherished discoveries I have ever made whole my life...".
(I do hope, by the way, that that particular, perceptive Muslima has by now dumped Islam and found herself a lovely kafir man to treat her the way a woman likes to be treated: love, respect, and simple human kindness).
And wherever Muslims are beginning to feel strong enough in their colonies in the *non-Muslim* world, they do it here, too.
They do it in the Islamified parts of Sydney, Australia.
From an article by Australian journalist Paul Sheehan
http://www.smh.com.au/news/paul-sheehan/ideals-become-casualties-of-war/2006/08/13/1155407666922.html
what happened to a woman friend of his:
"A friend of mine, Jenny D, used to live in Lakemba {heavily Islamified area of Sydney - dda}.
"She began receiving insults from people in the street, usually Muslim women wearing headscarves, and sometimes Muslim men.
"If she wore a short skirt, she could expect abuse or comment. She left Lakemba."
And on the Gold Coast, a beach/holiday strip of Queensland, Australia, which for some reason many Muslims select as a holiday destination:
Journalist Des Houghton, in *this* article
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/opinion/the-conrtroversial-ban-the-burka-debate-reaches-australian-shores/story-e6frereo-1225887202686
The conrtroversial 'ban the burka' debate reaches Australian shores
remarks: "A retired newspaper editor tells me Muslim men patrol Gold Coast beaches demanding women in bikinis cover up."
Here's the causal sequence of what are called 'the Cronulla riots' in Australia some years ago. 1. Muslim males grossly harass Australian non-Muslim women on the beach, for *years*. 2. On a particular occasion, Surf Lifesaver (boss of the beach), having had a gutful of Muslim crap behaviour, reprimands Muslim males for their harassment of Aussie girls. 3. Muslim males, outraged, lynch and bash said Surf Lifesaver. 4. Aussie locals, fed up, organise a big rally to (pretty much peacefully) protest against Muslim Bad Behaviour. 5. Muslims screech, howl, form huge mobs, and ATTACK everything in sight - burning, smashing, bashing random people - in three suburbs for two or three days.
As a general observation that sums the whole thing up nicely, I shall re-post a satirical limerick by one Montedoro who posted here regularly not too long ago:
Montedoro44 | December 16, 2009 9:33 AM | Reply
"Wearing a niqab or a burkha
For protection from perverts won't wurkha.
An ignorant slob
Might see only a blob
But he still can't help going bersurkha."
A few more articles of interest.
Danish psychologist Nicolai Sennels, on the widespread sexual abuse that takes place within Muslim 'communities' in the West.
http://europenews.dk/en/node/29775
Sexual abuse widespread among Muslims
HRS 5 February 2010 By Nicolai Sennels
Judy Bachrach, 'Twice Branded: Western Women in Muslim Lands' -
http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/articles/2009-Summer/full-Bachrach.html
"Nor is this sort of harassment confined to Islamic women in Islamic nations. Western women who find themselves in the Middle East come in for their own fair share of daily insults, owing to their double deficit as women and foreigners.
"Every step outside the home or hotel is an invitation to a carefully directed barrage of verbal assaults, their components familiar and unvarying: vulgar and offensive remarks, leers and snickers, the occasional shove, all accompanied by grins of triumph.
"When I lived in Egypt, everyone in Cairo avidly watched the television series Dallas, and as a result became expert on the sexual habits of American women. And not simply expert, but unrepentantly predatory...
'Thus it was that my Egyptian experience marked the only time in my life when the acquisition of the rudiments of a foreign language, far from making life more comfortable, actually ignited rage.
"The more Arabic we learned, the more xenophobic and sexually explicit trash talk we understood. There was a lot of it around (except, significantly, when we were escorted by our husbands). "...
"Local women are of such negligible importance that they can be viewed as prey.
"On the other hand, foreign women are in a wholly different category: wild and yet easy, so menacing and just plain available they are invariably treated as prey.
"The foreigner without a murderous uncle by her side or a veil over her face is a communal dish."
And Sarah Braasch, on what things are like in Morocco (I hope the link works... apologies if it doesn't).
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_7208/is_200810/ai_n32299380/?tag=content;col1
Wonder if the guys on the fence in the Arab News photo drop to the ground when the muezzin calls?
Be preferable if they listened to this instead, and confined their behaviour to watching the girls, at most:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKdOotrQ_Hw
Growing up in a muslim country close to yours,I experienced the same groping and pinching just like every other girl in the middle east…. the same like what happened to you ….no matter what woman happen to be wearing ….it was so annoying and scary some times ….one time that subject was being discussed in a group of both muslim men and women and almost all men put the blame on women for being handled like that and the reason was given, is women when they wear sexy out fits, even wearying face cover with only eyes shown made up with make up is a reason to cause groping , the men in the group said if a women intention not to be bothered, then they should stay home where they belong …in anther ward … we should excepted ….but nooooo…..women are fighting back …men who do this are being beaten and even killed by a brother or a father.
It was so different when I moved to Us …I have seen women in shorts ...in bikini on a beach or otherwise with absolutely no paid attention by any man... old or young ….the first time I visited back home I told every one that and how I liked being ignored by men in public . The men who heard this said….men in America are not manly enough….APES
Thanks for remembering me DDA. Been busy lately, but not gone. I copied that verse (minor variation) on the arabnews.com link at the end of the article above. Comments are moderated there, so maybe it won't see light.
I made an anapestic comment on another subject in today's jihadwatch:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/10/islamic-divorce-comes-to-skype.html
That's why I'm still to see a more truthful and accurate definition of what it means to be a mahoundian male than Pat Condell's:
They're primitive pigs whose only achievement in life is to be born with a penis in one hand and a Qur'an in the other.
MrsEener: "this is not a problem limited to Muslims. Back in 1985 I went on a middle school trip to Italy, and several of the girls in our group (the blond ones) were pinched in the behind more than once."
I experienced the same in 1975 when our class was in Rome, 18-19 year olds, and I once had to sort of step in when one of the girls complained. But we were obviously foreigners.
I've seen some cases of harassment in Denmark later, but those were always Muslim men and boys towards Muslim women who were not decently dressed (no scarf). Imagine talking dirty to a girl who might turn out to be the sister of a mate! It is not that big a city.
I haven't seen such harassment for some years, but the scarf and decent Islamic dress in all shapes and sizes has become so common now I suppose there's no longer the incitement ....nor exitement.
fineliving
have you read Ayaan Hirsi Ali's 'Infidel'?
In it, she recalls a conversation she had with some Ethiopian Christian girls, in the Netherlands, not long after she got there, while she was still wearing Islamic dress (headscarf/ hijab with an abaya, a long robe; she never wore the Slave Mask).
'One morning she [Mina, an Ethiopian] told me, "Come on, take off the scarf and the long skirt. You're pretty".
"I will not", I said. "I'm a Muslim".
'But this Mina...asked me, "But why? Why do Muslims have to cover themselves up and never have sex and all that? What is wrong with you?"...
"Why should I uncover my naked skin?" I asked Mina, "Don't you have any shame? What are you hoping to achieve, walking around undressed? Don't you know how it affects men?"
"I wear these skirts because I like having pretty legs", said Mina. "They won't be pretty for long, and I want to enjoy them." She shook one at me and said, "If anyone else enjoys them, so much the better".
'I couldn't believe it. I said, "But this is precisely the opposite of what I have been brought up to believe." And all of them [the Ethiopian girls] because all of them had gathered around by now, chimed in: "But *why?* Why are all you Muslims so difficult?"
"But if men see women dressed like you are now, with your arms bare and everything naked, then they will become confused and sexually tempted", I told them. "They will be blinded by desire".
'The girls began laughing, and Mina said, "I don't think it's really like that. And you know, if they get tempted, that's not such a big deal".
'By then I was wailing, because I could see what was coming, but I said, "But they won't be able to work, and the buses will crash, and there will be a state of total fitna!"
"So why is there not a state of total chaos everywhere around us here, in Europe?" Mina asked.
'It was true. All I had to do was use my eyes. Europe worked perfectly, every bus and clock of it. Not the first tremor of chaos was detectible. "I don't know," I said helplessly. "It must be because these [i.e. non-Muslim men in the Netherlands, non-Muslim men in Europe - dda] are not really men".
{There you are, 'fineliving', exactly the same 'argument' your relatives in the old country tried with you, to explain why American men do not normally harass women in public - dda}.
"Oh?" [said the Ethiopians, and one must imagine worldly-girl voices dripping with sarcasm - dda] " They are not really men, these big strong blond Dutch workers?"
'By this time the Ethiopian girls were almost weeping with laughter...They thought it was such Muslim bullshit...".
And then Ayaan goes on to describe - hilariously - how, over the ensuing days and weeks, she 'tested' the teaching about 'fitna', slowly freeing herself bit by bit from her Islamic 'cover-up', culminating in a trip to the swimming-pool - mixed bathing! - with those kind, clever, earthy Ethiopian girls who did a lot to help free her from of her Islamic cult programming. And she discovered that yes, non-Muslim men in the street in the Netherlands did NOT go crazy at the sight of a woman in non-Islamic dress (but that did not mean that they were weak or impotent, not in the least; a bit further on in the book she mentions her eventual acquisition of a Dutch friend and lover...she doesn't go into too many 'kiss and tell' details, but one gets the impression she was quite satisfied with his virility, though of course he would have been shocked and saddened by her FGM mutilation).
If you haven't read 'Infidel', 'fineliving', I recommend it...of course, you wouldn't want your Muslim family to see you reading it, perhaps you can sneak a look at it in a library?
I think I now know the answer to the question of why political pluralism doesn't work in the Muslim world.
Men who can't respect other men's mothers, wives, sisters, and daughters (or younger brothers, sons, nephews--given the prevalence of pederast homosexuality in the Dar-al-Islam) probably have very scant respect for each other as well. It seems that in the Muslim world, there are more excuses for male bad behavior than you'd find among a billion Left-wing social scientists (God help us all if that tribe ever reaches such a number).
While the prudish sexual ethics of Christians and Jews provoke gales of laughter among our Western "sophisticates", such ethics at least promote a better social climate.
I'd be curious for information about mother-son relations and behaviors in the Islamic world.
Those who possess no control over the mating instinct are usually found in zoos, or prisons. The mark of a civilised society is the basic rule that one's natural instincts are put to one side in order for society to function.
If one half of society is constantly under threat of the mating instinct of the other it is little more than a state of anarchy.
Kepha
both Nonie Darwish in her book on sharia, and Rosemary Sookhdeo in her book 'Secrets Behind the Burqa' (despite the somewhat sensational title, it's based on academic research she did toward a thesis), discuss these matters.
If I recall correctly, both say that the strongest male-female bond, in the Muslim world, is not the husband-wife bond ( as it is, ideally, in our societies), but the mother-son bond. A woman is, after all, once she has produced a son, known thenceforward as 'mother of so-and-so'. That is: whereas in our society a woman *will* still say, 'I am wife to so and so', in the Islamic world a woman will identify, and be identified as, 'mother of so and so'.
But that relationship is poisoned. The woman's bond with her son tends to be claustrophobic and unhealthy. If her husband dies, she depends upon her son, who becomes her 'guardian'. She spoils him rotten when he's small; but once he joins the world of the men, he despises her (because she's an inferior female). He can even 'honor' murder her, if the neighbours gossip about her; and the relationship between mother and son is such that when the son marries, the mother is usually very jealous of, and sometimes even murderously hostile toward, the daughter-in-law (paying forward, so to speak, the horrible treatment she copped from *her* mother-in-law, when *she* was a young bride).
What do you expect from a bunch of PIG that call themselves men? Anyone that will beat or kill a woman just for not covering her face is just a PIG.
Just like the young girls that died in a fire because the PIGS wouldn't let them out of the building because their heads were not covered and the PIGS said that the PIGS outside might get aroused from the sight of them. Anyone that would get sexually turned on when children are being burned to death just from seeing a uncovered child is a PIG.
This is one sick group of people and America doesn't need anything to do with the muslims (PIGS) or are they (DOGS) they certainly are not men.
I am proud to be an INFIDEL if they have men like that.
America better wake up soon.
As you, from your personal experience, and DDA pointed out, the typical reply from mohammadans when their bad behaviour is pointed out is "they (well behaved men) are not real men.
If I had a nickle for every time I heard that from a mohammadan I would be rich.
Whenever I have been accosted physically or verbally I always try to shame the mohammadan apes by telling them "Where I am from that behaviour is unacceptable and criminal." And every time their response is "your men are not real men" or "your men are weak."
It's digusting and it's all due to islam. And yet we're told by educaters, politicians, religious leaders and loony libs that we must respect islam.
I say screw that.
"...nd the relationship between mother and son is such that when the son marries, the mother is usually very jealous of, and sometimes even murderously hostile toward, the daughter-in-law..."
I have seen this behaviour. It's disturbing. In my opinion the mother-son relationship in islamic cultures is very oedipal. As a result mohammadan men are classic "momma's boys." Spoiled brats who think anything and any woman they want is their right and they behave exactly like spoiled brats when they are told "no".
Churchill was right; islam is a retrograde force. It destroys the human psyche beyond recognition.
Dumbiedoresarmy…thanks for the suggestion I will try to get that book I heard it is wonderful …I am a fan of Ayaan, Dr Sultan ,Darweesh and others who lead the struggle against the inhumane acts committed by people who are deprived of the essential ingredient to make compassionate human beings….I had cried when I heard Ayaan story and the same time I found out I am still not hardened against travesties done to women and non muslim alike having lived right in the middle of it.
I have posted some of these stories in Islam watch…some of them have enough savageness to have hair stand on end.
I have two little libraries in my house …one hidden with all the no…no ..books like …Richard Dawkins's and Salman Rushdie's and many evolution and humanist books ….and the other exposed library with Quran,Bible and all kind of fiction and non fiction in both arabic and English ….you might say I have courage for coming out as an ex muslim to my own family [which it causing me a lot of heartache all ready] but I am not ready to show the real books that I like to read to them …yet
I haven't the time to read all of this thread. Off to work I go. So I'm sorry if someone has already suggested this.
Martial arts for Muslim women could be held in one of those salons with no windows, and closed circuit TV. They couldn't be seen, and their "men" would be seen coming, via the camera.
I had no idea you were an apostate as well, Fineliving. Welcome to the club.
Would you be gracious enough to share with us what was the epiphany that freed you from islam?
Not so long ago I joined this thread …I have been posting for eight month now on Islam watch for venting and I have got so much encouragement I value a lot …as you can tell english does not come easy to me still …I will post my apostasy story later today I have to do the never ending shores now …thanks for asking
Thanks for the link ( works fine ).
Fascinating story.
Am I wrong for assuming that any woman who, after reading the koran, converts to islam is an idiot? Would it also be safe to assume that this also applies to men as well?
is it safe to assume that people who convert to islam, especially women, after reading the koran, are either idiots of just plain violent, anti-Semitic, homophobic, misogynistic, with a dab of schizophrenia?
You are 100% correct.
Western converts, if having read the kuran, still remain mohammadan converts, are not only complete idiots they are also today's Benedict Arnolds.
Yes, it's safe for you to assume all those things.
Wow, you are all rather worked up. I dislike Islam as much as all of you, but I have to report that I have been propositioned quite politely by a few Muslim men I knew "over there" and when I politely refused their advances (in the manner I do in the West, in a friendly way, no offence taken but, you know, I hardly know you, we are not married, or something like that) my refusal was treated respectfully; indeed, I think they were impressed, given the reputation Western women have in their countries. After the sex question was dealt with, we continued as before, in a friendly way (unless I tried to discuss Islam with them: now THAT upsets them!)
I was harrassed in the street a couple of times. My reaction was to show mild enough anger in such a way as to make them feel embarrassed, for example "What would your parents think if they heard you talk like this?"
The thing is, we must show them that despite our clothing and freedom, we expect to be treated as dignified women. Although I am not saying we should compromise with their "values" here,* we need to in their countries. I was quite shocked to see young Western women in short shorts and boob tubes walking around the pyramids.
*Then again, a story I heard about young women going out to detention centres expressly to have sexual dalliances with "asylum seekers" gives me a rather queasy feeling about how "our values" are playing out.
Istanbul Chick….I finely I have time to set down and write about my apostasy story which often accompanied with conflict feelings …..I was 13 years old when I first started to question wether what was being stuffed down my brain in Islamic classes was, possibly true.
In my mind Suret Al Nesa clearly showed Allah preference which of course men over women even to the point of ordering husbands to beat their wives in case of rebellions ,that did it for me specially when I had a wife beater for a father who never got in trouble with the law because of Sharea. I remembered being sad and angry to the point of hating the fact that I am a girl ….I envied my brother freedom in every thing…especially choosing a life that showed his talent and I the artist of the family did not have the chance to choose because my city did not have fine art university …only the capital have it …big fat NO was my father's answer when I asked to go…of course I can not I am only a silly girl ….the seed of dislike of Islam started from then and it grow to form a gigantic tree of hate in my soul .
My marriage was arranged and was shipped to America and I know that was the best thing that ever happen to me …I went on to attend fine art college and I had kids …they grew to be good responsible people except all the muslim community around us that brian wash your adult kids and all your past upbringing goes out the window.
My Daughter got covered in black …while her husband walks around in western clothe …one time I asked him ….is that fare?….His answer was …how people going to recognize us as muslims …and my answer was …I guess it has to fall on women shoulders again …right .
I only recognized I am no longer a muslim,three years ago even then I did not want to admitted to my self …but it is there …I could not help it I think no one can …I felt sad and bewildered even when I know I despised Islam and that where the conflict happened I had no one to talked to…I read all kinds of books on other religion and that only made me let go of the idea of religion all together to be replaced by a kind secret peace that I never knew before …now I believe... in life …not afraid of death and
I love the golden roll …truth of god is up in the air …we do not know …If it was out there I love it too because it is innocent of any religion.
I discovered these websites 8 month ago and they were life savers …it does gets really lonely some times …but I am getting used to it …I spend my free time painting huge abstract painting about life and humen experiences ..people like my work and I appreciate it ….thank you for listening …I am sorry for the long post .
Hi Fine Living,
Thanks for your very honest and interesting post. I'm wondering, are you still married and if so, does your husband know?
BTW, to answer your son in law, we don't need a woman in a bag to know who the Muslims are. The arrogance of your former menfolk is as plain as the noses on their faces. Their insecurities can be spotted miles away.
I don't know quite where watching twitter/social media falls into anything, or where to actually post this comment.
There's a zeyad ramadan's purify your gaze website that's starting up. HalalHealthy.com can deliver halal food.
daisylilly on twitter, a convert to islam has her own views and finds her peaceful life, considering keeping her kids home so that they won't be celebrating halloween at school. Earlier this week she also mentioned that musical instruments are the tools of shaytann and distract you from allah, so you need to replace your music and use the quran as a means of finding relaxation.
I've run into another online post somewhere by a Muslim who talked of great musical works and even sounds in nature, and asked if perhaps allah was mistaken about music, and there were various opinions there, some of which towards offense that allah would make a mistake. I've
MuftiAbdullah on twitter might reach into the world more. He was going around New York for halal conference and advocacy programs. HE reported that all 4 locations of the Pakwan restaurant in the bay area signed for halal verification with HFSAA. He toured around the Bay area with islamic programs, gives sermons on the importance of eating halal. Was around Seattle to a chicken slaughterhouse starting a halal program.
I've run into viewpoints wherecritiquing islam is the same as criticizing a muslim, even though you want to actually talk about islam. There are islamophone groups on facebook like Americans Against Islamophobia and can't really debate there.
In some Muslim countries, women carry knives and if they don't stop an attack and stab to death a man trying to rape them, it is just assumed that they consented and
can be easily condemned under Sharia law. (Of course, if that rapist is her husband it is not considered rape.) So, even if a woman is, in theory, allowed to physically defend herself the responsibility is still put on her to show she did not "provoke" the attack (i.e., had no skin, hair, shape showing), to physically protect herself, to prove that she did not consent, and to kill her attacker. Even if she killed a rapist who was trying to attack her, under Sharia law she is not allowed to testify on her own behalf. She would still need four witnesses to prove she was innocent and was being raped. The deck is stacked against the (female) victim and is in favor of the (Muslim male) rapist.
Part of the very definition of a domestic violence abuser is someone who sees an intimate partner as merely an extension of the abuser whose function is primarily to satisfy the abuser's needs/wants for domination and control and to take the responsibility and the consequences for the abuser's actions. The ummah ("Muslim world") under Sharia law is a (Muslim male) abuser's dream world.
A few weeks ago I read an article claiming that martial arts were very popular with Muslima's in Holland. And I mentioned this to a friendly Muslima headscarf-wearing colleague. And right away she said; You would not be surprised if you knew what our men are like! Later on she told me she was divorced and also broke off a subsequent 5-year-long engagement, both with Muslims. But she did not say why, only indicated those relations had been horrible, with her face.
Also, a couple of years back, I remember there were several articles mentioning that Moroccan Muslima's in Holland now stayed single or divorced a lot. And they were quite clear about the reason; they still couldn't marry infidels easily, because of the family being very disapproving of that, but they also in great numbers rejected the Moroccan men, either those in Holland or those in Morocco.
Because they were treated so badly by them. At one time a Moroccan lady said that "these modern Muslima's want and demand to be treated equally and the Muslim men in general don't want or are unable to do it.
These are snippets of information about Muslima's in Holland I picked up over the years.
Hi Isabella….thank you for your positive post …..in answer to your question ,wether I am still married or not ….
I have to say with the down side of being traditionally marriage …we still together …he is still a moderate Muslim who knows almost nothing of Quran …what ever his knowledge of it he got as child just like most moderate muslims …he looks down on apostates to the point of destine …but our argument about Islam with all my proves from Quran and hadeeth …does not do anything except name calling and apologies with no winer.He tells me to never talk about it to any muslim in fair of harm on me…. too bad I do not listen ….so far so good ... I am not planing to stop... my hole family knows and but act like nothing happened …like the elephant in the room that no one notices ….my oldest son listing and I think I am reaching him …he stopped going to the local mosque when I showed him the contractions ,the history mistakes,the violent and all the lies in the Quran he is good and responsible humen being without the superstitions and closed mind.
Great reading your posts about your experiences, fineliving56!
I hope that through people like you and most of us here in this 21st century there will be the great awakening of so many Muslims, including your son.
I was an apostate from Christianity, but you know what? My family completely accepted this and my family, which is half devoutly Christian, half convinced "Darwinist" still treats me as lovingly and respectfully as possible. We all respect each other's choices, and occasionally, of course, we have a strong debate about religion and science.
I saw your posts on Islam Watch too, and was pleased with them there too.
Thanks demsci ….I am glad you have the support of your family in democratic approach in dealing with religion or lack of it ….but to tell you the truth not every Christian is this understanding ….I have a friend who's all her family are christians and she became atheist 15 years ago . Since then not one of them talked,visit,E mailed or phoned her…she is heart broken and she cries to me some time …and I always tell her at least in your religion not talking to you,is the worse thing they will do to you ….but my Islam …oh no you have to pay with your life for apostasy.
Someone told me once ….non religion people are every were around us but they are too leery to come out .
peace to you and every humen on earth