Armistice Day

ArmisticeDay.jpg

Yet again this year, Armistice Day comes amid bloody jihad attacks and attempts at further mass-murder. The letter-bomb plot against Chicago synagogues was yet another reminder, in a public debate dominated by deception and wishful thinking, that the jihad against the U.S. is far from over.

Because it is theologically based, and not ultimately dependent upon the change of certain policies or the ending of certain hegemonies, this is a war without end. It is a problem that cannot be solved. But it can be managed, and the jihadists and Islamic supremacists contained, if we can summon the will to do so.

In the U.S. today, Constitutional law, including the non-establishment of religion and the freedom of religion, is being assailed today by increasingly assertive global forces, both non-violent and violent. The mainstream media, government, and law enforcement, deathly afraid of spurious charges of "bigotry" and "Islamophobia," lie about and obfuscate the motive of every new jihad attack and plot. However, in the past year we have seen more and more Americans begin waking up to the Muslim Brotherhood's "stealth jihad" to eliminate and destroy Western civilization "from within, sabotaging its miserable house."

And so as long as free people still draw air, there is hope.

Today, then, we should remember and be grateful to those who gave their lives to secure and protect these freedoms for us -- as if our gratitude could ever be sufficient or adequate. We should ponder the fact that they had to give their lives in order to secure these freedoms. We should remember that if we are not willing to give our own lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor to protect the unalienable rights enumerated at the founding of this Republic, we will most assuredly lose both them and the Republic itself -- lose them for ourselves and for our children.

Let us never shrink from the task before us: the great struggle to defend human rights, human dignity, and freedom from oppression and injustice -- particularly the oppression and injustice, and assaults to human dignity that are enshrined in the Sharia that is coming, step-by-step, steadily and apparently inexorably, to a still largely ignorant and indifferent West.

Happy Veterans' Day.

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'New English Review' report from Britain:

"Muslims against Crusaders - Armistice Day treason."


http://www.newenglishreview.org/blog_display.cfm/blog_id/30657

http://pajamasmedia.com/michaeltotten/2010/11/11/blood-libel-the-sequel/


RS, I didn't post this link to give Michael a hard time. I just thought Fnord's refutation of all your "data" was pretty hilarious......

http://pajamasmedia.com/michaeltotten/2010/11/09/less-than-half-of-american-muslims-support-the-ground-zero-mosque/

excuse me, this was the link with comments in the 120 related to my previous comment above...

Those who love freedom and will fight for it seem to have a never ending job. Time and time again the forces of repression challenge free people with the pathetic control-freak ideology du jour. No two full democracies have gone to war against one another over the past century. In EVERY martial conflict over this time period at least one of the two sides has not been fully democratic. Democracies are not a guarantee that war will not occur but they are the closest damn thing to a guarantee mankind will ever see.

Imperial Germany and its allies in WWI were not real democratic states. Authoritarianism existed in them more or less (e.g., the Chancellor of the Second Reich was not answerable to the German legislature but rather to the Kaiser; the Ottoman Empire was not only a sick old man but also a typical Muslim polity which allowed little freedom). In WWII the enemies of liberty were ruthless, tyrannical states. In a bitter irony of history, the free societies of mankind in WWII had to align with a true enemy of liberty in Stalin's Russia, but exigent circumstances sometimes demand alliances that are practical but not admirable. Welcome to Realpolitik.

Now Islam has reawakened with all its ugliness and is vexing free nations with its warped and freedom-crushing agenda. Much blood will be spilled again before the wiser element of mankind puts the worst example of spiritual totalitarianism in its place once and for all. Damn Islam for this, a putrid production of mankind if ever there were one. But hail to the soliders of free peoples who have to pay the price again and again to end what the worst of mankind continues to hold up as a model for all to follow. One couldn't find a finer example of this folly than Islam itself.

http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2010/11/the-episode-recalled-a-similar-case-in-march-when-israel-announced-plans-for-1600-jewish-units-in-another-contested-area-of.html

I always wondered why this was never deconstructed here.

You all might enjoy the general thrust of this blog.

I am being sarcastic of course.

I would place Mr. Lang in countra-position to Mr. Spencer....

Wellington

have you read this essay by G K Chesterton?

http://www.fullbooks.com/The-Barbarism-of-Berlin.html

It was written in 1915. He was analysing not Islam but Prussian militarism.

One can see, given that such a mindset (fostered by the likes of Nietzsche) already existed, why and how it was that Nazism came down the pike 30 years later.

You will note that the two things Chesterton identifies as the chief marks of Prussian barbarity - the refusal of Reciprocity, and the refusal to abide by Agreements - are also central to Islam.

Correction to the above.

'The Barbarism of Berlin' was written in 1914, not in 1915.

Yet again this year, Armistice Day comes amid bloody jihad attacks and attempts at further mass-murder.

Well, as a baseball fan I always love watching new talent come up and flower before the multitudes. I loved it when Dwight Gooden rocketed to the top almost overnight for the Mets. And how about Joe Mauer and Justin Morneau, the M&M Boys for the Twins?

*** 8:12 ***

Known to western intelligence services by the alias Saif al-Adel, or "Sword of the Just", al-Qaeda's new chief of international operations is believed to have conceived of the wave of strikes that set off terror alerts across Europe recently, as well as last week's mid-air parcel-bomb plot.

And now we have this young Saif al-Adel fella. He has been called up from the minors by general manager Osama bin Laden, Harvard Man, and put into the center of the Mass Murder Arena that sits at the center of Islam.

He's started tossing in some very serious curve balls with the spin of the 6th Pillar of Islam, impressing the fans with his pinpoint control. Now they anxiosly await further reports of his development in the booming sports entertainment field of Jihad terror war mass murder.

Me? I think he'll greatly please his fan base by making a big bang. Maybe in the belly of a Boeing 757 or an Airbus 350, or maybe in Times Square. Something like that. But this kid, young Saif al-Adel, has great promise.

Exceptionally well put as usual, Wellington

And one more of the larger questions put before us this sacred evening, is - The West must SOONER OR LATER face up to and answer some very hard and disturbing questions about the Islamic religion itself }}>>

For example, what good does the building of ANY mosque, ANYWHERE, provide to ANY Western country, that allows them to be constructed within its borders?

The indisputable answer to this question is that all of these mosques, these centers of Islamic indoctrination, bring nothing but serious LONG-TERM problems to all of the Western countries in which they become established.

This is due to the fact that orthodox (as in REAL Islam) Islam is such a deviously divisive, violent, unjust, intolerant, bullying supremist creed/ideology that nothing but TROUBLE emanates from it over the long-term.

Islam brings with it demands for sharia law and the death penalty for apostasy and blasphemy etc etc and there is no getting around this stone cold fact.

As an honorable, law abiding Canadian citizen who has committed no other “crime” than having left Islam, I would personally like to see Islam itself designated a terrorist organization - for that is what it essentially is when you get past all of the lies and the flowery window dressing...

I am a ex-Muslim with a website:
http://www.considerationsofacanadianex-muslim.org

Thanks for the link, dda. Chesterton anticipated quite well what probably the most famous German historian of the twentieth century, Fritz Fischer, would allege in the early 1960s with his work, "Germany's Aims in the First World War." Rather than seeing Hitler as an anomaly in German history, something many historians just assumed to be the case, Fischer saw a continuum stretching back centuries (at least to Martin Luther) respecting the Teutonic mindset, this resulting in an authoritarian Germany that not only was responsible for WWII but WWI as well. This went against the idea that all major powers were roughly equally guilty for the Great War and also pointed to an even more controversial thesis that, given German history, Hitler was practically inevitable. Fischer, like Chesterton, I think got it right. The Germans are a great people but tragically flawed because they never grasped how important freedom was.

Took themselves too seriously also. As has been observed many times, there are few golf courses in Germany and golf is a very humiliating game. Takes a truly resilient people, say the Scots, to allow for regular humiliation.

And, yes, the similarities of Prussian militarism to Islam are striking, as you mentioned, particularly the disregard for reciprocity and for the keeping of agreements. Well, I suppose we shouldn't be surprised (nor surprised I might add at the dearth of golf in the Muslim world). Authoritarianism breeds all kind of ethical lapses and wonderful counters to this are democracy and the Judeo-Christian ethic. Thanks again for the Chesterton reference. He was a very shrewd man, of that there can be no doubt. Very English too, in the best sense. Take care, dda.

DDA- I am just finishing Tuchman's Guns of August and am anxious to read your Chesterton reference. They apparently cover nearly the same period.

Wellington - just from Tuchman I can appreciate your analysis of Prussian militarism, and how Hitler was a natural follow-up to the barbarism inflicted under the Kaiser.

Three "isms" down in the XX century; two more to go, so far, for Century XXI.

Thank you to All of our service men and women ...poster "Boneshack", in particular :)

Very well written Wellington. I seriously love reading your posts. Wish I knew as much as you do!

@dumbledoresarmy

on muslim religious freedom in China, which you have earlier displayed an interest in.

During the Boxer Rebellion in China, Chinese Muslims (Hui) in the Chinese imperial army, called the kansu braves, attacked and killed christians, protestants, catholics, and orthodox. Many of these muslim officers of this army later became major Generals in the Republic of China state. one of them was Ma Fuxiang.

in 1912, however, general Ma Fuxiang protected Catholic communities in northwest China from attacks.

You have also said you support Taiwan against Red China. I am from Taiwan, and i must warn you, you are in for a big shock if you think we are islamophobes.

How about a bit of information that may shock you- the Republic of China (Taiwan) employed dozens of Hui chinese muslim Generals. One of them, Ma Bufang, intiated massacres of Tibetans, ripping the Tibetan army to pieces in 1932. He also led his chinese muslim army to intiate mass killins of Chinese communists, Tibetans, and Muslim kazakhs in 1936. Ma then led his army to crush Japanese forces during World War2, the Republic of China government encouraged Jihadist rhetoric against Japan during the war. Ma Bufang destroyed many Tibetan Buddhist monastaries.

Ma Bufang was given a medal by the Republic of China president, Chiang Kaishek, who later fled to taiwan with his government. Ma Bufang was then appointed ambassador of Taiwan to Saudi Arabia. His brother Ma Buqing was awarded with a post in the Defence Ministry of Taiwan.

Ma Bufang was also notoriously intolerant of Wahhabi fundamentalists, crushing the life out of them, instead, he supported the Yihewani muslim sect.

other chinese muslim Generals, Ma Zhongying, and Ma Zhancang, fought for the Republic of China, leading the 36th Chinese muslim division to crush Uyghur muslims, when the uyghurs tried to declare independence as the East turkestan republic in 1934.

Bai Chongxi, another muslim General, was made a defence minister of the Republic of China, and then fled to Taiwan with his government.

practically the entire northwestern China was under the controlf of Chinese muslim Generals loyal to the Republic of China government, among them were Ma Hongkui, Ma Bufang, and Ma Hongbin, Ma Chengxiang. Many of them had fought the communists, and fled to Taiwan after the end of the Chinese Civil War.

The Government of Taiwan also constructed the Taipei Grand Mosque.

by the way, you are in error if you think Taiwan has declared independence from China. It has not, Taiwan still calls itself the Republic of China, you, like many other westerners, are confused by the situation, in Taiwan there are two camps, one in favor of independence, which has not been declared, the other in favor of maintaining Taiwan as the Republic of China and declaring soveirgnty over all of China, which taiwan currently does.

Also, i am going a little off topic here, but you have in earlier posts used the Dungan revolt as an example of muslim holy war in China. the Dungan revolt was not a "jihadist" war, during the war, Muslims actually helped the Chinese government kill and massacre the rebel muslims. Among them was Wang Dagui and Ma Anliang.

Ma Anliang hated wahhabis, he brutally crushed other muslims while serving the Chinese government.

What's your point?

You claim to be a pro-Muslim non-Muslim Taiwanese? Is that correct?

Funny, then, that you talk about Islamophobes and try to blame all jihad on the Wahabbis (which is rubbish; Wahabbism was only invented pretty recently, there were *centuries* of full-on jihad before it came along). Both are talking points that tend to be used mainly by Muslims.

You sound to me more like a. a Muslim spin-doctor or b. someone from the Chinese mainland dictatorship, trying to make Taiwan look bad by representing Taiwan as pro-Muslim, here in an Islamocritical forum.

(Taiwan is far from perfect, and it sounds like they've made some truly stupid mistakes as regards Muslims - a thing that many, many other countries have also done, witness the UK, France, the USA, Russia, etc - but speaking as a Christian, if I had to choose between living in Taiwan or in Mainland China, I know which I'd choose - Taiwan. And irrespective of what politicians may say or not say, Taiwan is de facto a separate country; and given the relative sizes and arsenals of the two countries, it's the Chinese mainland dictatorship which threatens Taiwan - especially at the moment with Obama projecting weakness - rather than the other way around. My advice to mainland China: cut the apron-strings and accept that Taiwan, which was once a colony, is now a separate Sinophone nation. )

Now for my advice to any country at all anywhere in the world - China, Taiwan, you-name-it - that has a large population of Muslims.

This advice is guided by what I have come to know of the jihad ideology of Islam, and of the ugly, ugly, ugly fruits of Islam on the ground in every place where Islam has ever dominated, or dominates. Islam's sharia law, when one examines it closely, looks like a system invented by psychopathic sadists, in order to produce psychopathic sadists and arrange for them to be able to indulge all their desires at will. And wherever there are Muslims, sharia tends to grow, and grow, and grow.

So: Stop importing Muslims, if you are currently doing so.

Don't allow any more mosques or Islamic schools on your territory (they are NOT the same sort of thing as Buddhist or Taoist temples, Christian churches, or Jewish synagogues; they are military bases, forts, arsenals, recruiting offices for Jihad, temples to a god of blood and war who teaches murderous hate) and if the existing ones turn out to produce jihad plotters and/ or sharia pushers, shut them down and bulldoze them flat.

If the Muslims start waging jihad at any level, be it street riots, terror raids, bombings, etc, or are caught plotting to do so, evict the whole lot of them into dar al Islam (the older parts where there are very few non-Muslims surviving).

Both China and Taiwan would be much better off if they took this advice.


Happy Veterans' Day to all.

lol, I was wondering why maxtrue had sent me down some unexplained link, grrrrrrr, and I was too fast becoming seriously upset.
But then I discovered that the Less Than Half of American Muslims Support the Ground Zero Mosque discussion is highly interesting. Numbers, statistics, 9/11, polls, Sharia Courts.

Also I found it was a link of maxtrue's that lead me to the The Wisdom Fund via some revelation put up on Arab News. Muslim conspiracy theories: "9/11 The Muslims Didn't Do It!!!"

http://newstime.co.nz/my-faith-my-voice.html
Muslim video: "My Faith My Voice"

vs.

Abrogation (Naskh) “The Qur’an’s tolerant verses: “canceled” 1.3 MB PDF of Political Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades) by "New York Times" Bestseller author Robert Spencer

“No Compulsion in Religion” 2:256 (early Mecca verse as Mr. “Love & Peace™” still wore a mask to woo new converts and his preaching was sugary) Abrogated (Naskh) “canceled” through the later (Medina) “Verse of the Sword” 9:5 “Kill the infidels wherever you find them.”

Thumbs up to all veterans, past, present and future...But don't go to sleep...There are battles still to be fought...Our country (US)has been invaded by foreign crusaders...The sword of sharia is their main weapon...Everywhere sharia strikes, it leaves a residue that grows like a fungus...In fact sharia is the fastest growing fungus in the world...Worse even than bed bugs...and even harder to get rid of...I hope the Oklahoma judge with two last names, will figure that out by the next hearing...

a mosque, anywhere, i.e., "place of battle," if not currently active in jihad is by Islamic definition a sleeper cell.

Sooo... Muslims burning poppies in effigy? The real thing could probably be arranged.

Please read “A Tale of two Europes”, or “looking for transcendence” by George Weigel.

It examines Benedict’s XVI and the president of the European Union Council Herman Van Rompuy appeal to Europe, and by extension the West, to draw from two different sources of transcendence.
While one of them is essential for the West’s survival the other assures its ultimate demise. Although the article doesn’t mention Islam in one word it is obvious (to me) that if the West doesn’t find, or rather recover, its original source of the transcendence the direct cause of its demise will be Islam. I believe so because in the clash of civilizations that have developed around their respective religions the one that lost its connection to the past and trades its spiritual identity for a “way of living” must give in to one spiritually dynamic and aggressive.
Yes, I know, the spirit animating islam is evil, or from the Devil if you wish, but it motivates and galvanizes its followers to incomparably higher degree than the ideas of democracy, free speech, homosexual or women or animal rights etc. inspire the peoples of the West.
Besides, their armies are on our territories an growing.

Anyway, here it is: www.nationalreview.com/articles/print/253063
I think it is a must read.

The following is a correction to the summary, that I, in a comment in the comments section of a previous post on this web site (the post named "Obama in Indonesia slams Israel, says more work is needed to improve ties with Islamic world" ( http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/11/obama-in-indonesia-slams-israel-says-more-work-is-needed-to-improve-ties-with-islamic-world.html#comment-728851 )) wrote, of the history, from 1917 to 1967, of the situation that Israel is in.

In that summary, that I wrote, of that history, I wrote, inaccurately, that the British army, along with the armies of five Arab countries, attacked Israel several days after Israel was voted a country by the then-newly-founded United Nations by a majority vote in 1948. What is my understanding of what is, in fact, the case is that British troops fought alongside the army of Jordan in that Muslim Arab self-proclaimedly intendedly genocidal attack on Israel launched by the armies of five Arab states in 1948, and my understanding of what is the case is that the British army, as a whole, did not participate in that Muslim Arab attack on Israel in 1948.

In reply to my comment in which I wrote that summary of the history of the situation, commenter traeh wrote a comment in which he wrote that it was his understanding that the British government had provided military assitance to the Arab armies during that attack on Israel, but that it was not his undestanding that the British army, as a whole, had fought against Israel in that attack.

I, in a subsequent comment, replied to traeh that I thought that he was correct and that it was my understanding that British troops had fought along side the Jordanian army against Israel, and that I thought that the British army, as a whole, did not fight against Israel, and I wrote that I thought that there may be some other errors in that summary, that I wrote, of the history of the situation (which were errors that I wrote that I thought were minor errors and which were errors that I wrote that I thought may include dates being off by one or two or so years). I have reviewed that summary, that I wrote, of the history of the situation, and it is now my understanding that there are no errors in that summary, that I wrote, of the situation, other than what may be one, or two, or so, dates being off by one, or two, or so, years.

The following are additional facts of, and what is my understand that are additional facts of, the history of the situation.

In 1920, Amin al-Husseini (Mohammad Amin al-Husseini), a member of the Arab aristocratic Husseini family, incited, and caused, murderous Arab riots against Jewish people in the British Mandate of Palestine

In 1921, after Amin al-Husseini, in 1920, incited and caused murderous Arab riots against Jewish people in the British Mandate of Palestine, British officials appointed Amin al-Hussieni to the position of Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. In 1921, the British government appointed Jack Philby to one of the most influential positions of management of the British Mandate of Palestine. Jack Philby was a British Intelligence officer, a self-professed Socialist, and was well-know to his colleagues as being a fervent hater of the Jewish people, and was a fluent speaker of Arabic, and, in 1930, converted to Islam, and, in the 1930's, illegally provided, and illegally profitted from providing, petroleum from Muslim Arab states to the Nazi (National Socialist) regime of Germany.

In the 1930's, British officials supported and facilitated Arab murderous anti-Jewish riots in, and Arab massacres of Jewish people in, the British Mandate of Palestine. During those Arab murderous anti-Jewish riots and Arab massacres of Jewish people, British officials prevented Jewish people from defending themselves, and punished Jewish people who defended themselves during those Arab murderous anti-Jewish riots and Arab massacres of Jewish people, and charged with murder, and put to death, Jewish people who killed Arab attackers during those Arab murderous anti-Jewish riots and Arab massacres of Jewish people.

In 1935, Amin al-Husseini created the Palestinian Arab Party as part of the Nazi-influenced Nazi-allied Arab Nationalist movement. With the Palestinian Arab Party, Amin al-Husseini created a terrorist youth corps division, al-Futuwwa, which Amin al-Husseini officially called the Nazi Scouts, and whose structure Amin al-Husseini modeled on the youth corps of the Nazi regime of Germany, the Hitler Youth. Amin al-HUsseini, using al-Futuwwa, murdered Arab leaders in the British Mandate of Palestine who opposed him and who were not opposed to the creation of a Jewish state alongside an Arab state in the part of the British Mandate of Palestine that had not been made into Transjordan by British officials.

The majority of, or all of, the land that the Jewish people who, in the early part of the 20th century, were engaged in the Jewish liberation and self-determination movement - the Zionist movement - the endeavor of rebuilding the Jewish country, Israel - developed and cultivated was land that those Jewish people bought, at exorbitant prices, from Arab landowners, who in many cases, or in most cases, or in all cases, were Arab absentee land owners. Those Jewish people constituted the Yishuv - the Jewish community in the British Mandate of Palestine who were cultivating the land of and rebuilding the country of the Jewish people, Israel.

In the 1930's, many Arab people from areas in the Middle East outside of the part of the British Mandate of Palestine that had not been made into Transjordan by British officials, migrated to the then-thiving Yishuv community seeking, and finding, work.

From the 1930's to throughout the 1940's, British officials closed off all Jewish migration to the British Mandate of Palestine and barred entry to the British Mandate of Palestine by, and turned back, all Jewish people who were seeking entry into the British Mandate of Palestine who were fleeing from Europe who were trying to escape from being murdered by the members of Nazi regime of Germany and from being murdered by the members of the Nazi-allied Fascist regimes and militias in Europe.

The Following is What Must Be Done

In order to protect the Jewish people in the country of the Jewish people, Israel, from being mass-murdered by the Islamic-Supremacist regime of Iran and its proxies, and in order to protect the whole world from being violently attacked by, and infiltrated by, and taken over by, and subsequently enslaved by, the modern Islamic-Supremcaist political movement, Jewish people, and non-Jewish people, and, most importantly, the members of the government of Israel, need to honestly, accurately, clearly, effectively communicate the factual currently 90 year history and current reality of the situation the Israel is in to the members of the governments of Western countries and to the whole world.

Most importantly, in order to wake up the members of the societes of Western free democratic countries to the nature of the modern Islamic-Supremacist political movement, the Nazi German history and legacy of the 'Palestinian movement', which was founded by Amin al-Husseini, who was a member of, and an early leader of, the Muslim Brotherhood, and who was an adjoined official of the Nazi Regime of Germany, and who was the co-architech the genocide of the Jewish people in Europe by the Nazi regime of Germany, and who was the mentor of, and an uncle of, Egyptian-born Yasser Arafat (Mohammed Yasser Abdel Rahman Abdel Raouf Arafat al-Qudwa al-Husseini), who, in 1954, in Egypt, founded Fatah under the guidance of Amin al-Husseini, must be communicated to the societes of Western free democratic countries.

IMPORTANT FACTS OF THE EVENTS OF THE PAST HUNDRED YEARS THAT ARE FACTS THAT ARE IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND IN ORDER TO UNDERSTAND THE CURRENT SITUATION IN THE WORLD

The following are facts of, and, in some cases, are what I think are facts of, events of the past hundred years which are facts that, and, in some cases, are what I think are facts that, in comments that I posted in the comments section of that post, I wrote about, and which are facts of which some are facts that, and which, in some cases, are what I think are facts of which some are what I think are what I think are facts that, commenter Wellington challenged me about and made countering arguments about, which were arguments that I, in appeasement, wrongly conceded to, and are facts that, and, in some cases, are what I think are facts that, are important to understand in order to understand the current situation in the world.

With my writing the following facts, and things which I think are facts, it is not my intention to blame or offend.

With my writing the following facts, and things which I think are facts, it is my intention to inform, in order to make the current situation better.

The 1930's and Today - What Happened in the 1930's is Happening Now

The following are articles which describe the collusion of American academia and other Western academia with the Nazi regime of Germany in the 1930's.

"Harvard's Nazi Ties", by Stephen H. Norwood
http://www.wymaninstitute.org/articles/2004-11-harvard.php

"Stephen H. Norwood's 'The Third Reich in the Ivory Tower'"
http://page99test.blogspot.com/2009/08/stephen-h-norwoods-third-reich-in-ivory.html

"Higher Ed and the Third Reich"
http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/06/17/nazism

"Antisemitic Myths in the American Academy: Blacks, Jews and Nazis", A Symposium at The Vidal Sassoon International Center for the Study of Antisemitism at Hebrew University in Jerusalem (Video); The first part of the symposium is a talk by Prof. Stephen H. Norwood about the collusion of Western academia with the Nazi regime of Germany during the 1930's. In his talk, Prof. Norwood documents, among other things, the following.
O The commradery and collusion between the ethnically West European American industrialist and financier alumni and Nazi German officials who were hosted guests of, and, from what I remember from hearing the talk, was, in at least one case, an alumni of, Harvard University
O The refering to as being "ridiculous", the complaints of Jewish people who, and the few non-Jewish students who, voiced opposition to the hosting of those German Nazi officials by Harvard University
O The expulsion, by the administrators of the University, of students who opposed the hosting and collusion of those Nazi German officials by the administrators of University
O The student exchange programs between American and other Western Universities with Nazi German Universities (which had at that time already been purged of Jewish faculty and students), while the persecution against the Jewish people in Germany, at that time in the 1930's, was being reported (barely) in the American press, and was well known to all of the administrators of those Western Universities
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHeDCOGUJv4

In the 1920's, the Jewish-conspiracy-theory-propagating, anti-Jewish, intendedly hate inciting, European fictional propaganda book "Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion" was published and circulated in West European countries and was believed to be true by members of the political, and academic, and journalistic classes in Britain. On May 12, 1920, The Times of London published a long article, titled "A Disturbing Pamphlet: A Call for Enquiry", about the "Protocols of the ELders of Zion". The following is the last line of the article: "Have we, by straining every fibre of our national body, escaped a 'Pax Germanica' only to fall into a 'Pax Judaica'?"".

In the 1920's, the automobile manufacturing industrialist Henry Ford sponsored the dissemination of "The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion" in the United States, and disseminated the ideology of "The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion" in a series of articles called "The International Jew: The World's Foremost Problem" in his newspaper The Dearborn Independent.

Anti-Jewish bigotry was pervasive in the United States in the 1930's. I think that it was a widespread belief in Europe and the United States that "Jewish bankers" controlled the economy of the world and that "The Jews" controlled the administration of Franklin Delano Roosevelt, some the members of whose administration were Jewish (and were people who were Jewish who were in positions of power who, out of normal ethnically Jewish-European fear of being hated for being perceived by ethnically non-Jewish ethnically European to be advocating for the well-being of Jewish people, did not act to protect the Jewish people from harm; were "Court Jews").

In the 1930's, people in Western countries, and especially people in Europe, had been traumatized by World War I, and, in the 1930's, people in Western countries wanted to avoid any form of conflict.

In the 1930's, in Western countries, some Socialists, and so-called "Liberal" self-described "Pacifists" defended the Nazi regime of Germany and verbally attacked Jewish people who were advocating for opposition to the Nazi regime of Germany, and called Jewish people who were advocating for opposition to the Nazi regime of Germany "Warmongers".

The following is a talk in which by Dr. Simcha Epstein describes this phenomena.

"Are We Reliving the 1930s? How West European Philo-Semites became Anti-Semites before the Second World War", a talk by Dr. Simcha Epstein (Video)
http://www.jcpa.org/JCPA/Templates/showpage.asp?DBID=1&LNGID=1&TMID=723&FID=799&PID=0

In Britian in the 1930's the student body of either Oxford University or Cambridge University signed a petition in which they declared their opposition to any opposition by the government of Britian to the Nazi regime of Germany.

I think that The Nazi movement in Germany in the 1920's was begun by, and led by, academics, and I think that the anti-Jewish pro-Nazi movement in Western countries in the 1930's was begun by, and led by, academics.

In the 1930's, one of the few people who advocated opposing the Nazi regime of Germany was Winston Churchill, who, at that time was a Conservative member of the Parliament of Britian, and who fervently advocated opposing the Nazi regime of Germany and was mocked and scorned and reviled and ridiculed by his fellow members of Parliament in Britian for doing so.

The members of the government of Britain resisted opposing the Nazi regime of Germany until Nazi Germany invaded Poland in 1939 and thereby broke a treaty that Adolf Hitler, the leader of the Nazi regime Germany, had made with then Prime Minister of Britain, Neville Chamberlain.

The government of the United States of America did not enter into the war against Nazi Germany until after the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor in 1941.

The government of the United States refused to accepted Jewish people who were trying to flee from Europe during the 1940's. The governments of almost all Western countries refused to accepted Jewish refugees during the 1940's. Britain allowed refuge in Britain to some very few (I think a few hundred or less) Jewish people who were fleeing from the Nazi regime of Germany in Europe, but members of the government of Britian also engaged in a diplomatic campaign to prevent, and the granting of refuge in any Western country of any Jewish people who were trying to flee from being murdered by the Nazi regime of Germany in Europe.

During the 1930's and 1940's, The New York Times, a newspaper whose owners were ethnically Jewish-European and politically "Liberal", deliberately - out of common Jewish-European deep profound fear of being seen as advocates of the Jewish people by ethnically non-Jewish ethnically European people - played down and hid the reality of the persecution of the Jewish people in Germany by Nazi regime of Germany, and then played down and hid the reality of the subsequent mass-murder of the Jewish people in all of Europe by the Nazi regime of Germany.

During the 1930's and 1940's, leaders of so-called 'Jewish Organizations' in the United States, deliberately - out of common Jewish-European deep profound fear of being seen as advocates of the Jewish people by ethnically non-Jewish ethnically European people - sabotaged efforts by some Zionist Jewish people and by other Jewish people, to rescue Jewish people in Europe from being murdered by the Nazi regime of Europe.

If, in the 1930's, the governments of Western countries had non-violently opposed the Nazi regime of Germany, and had, with non-violent skillful actions, prevented Germany from becoming militarily powerful, World War II, and the mass-murder of almost all of the Jewish people in Europe - the mass-murder of approximately six million men, women, and children - by the members of the Nazi regime of Germany and by many of the millions of supporters of the Nazi regime of Germany, would have been averted and would not have taken place.

The governments and societies of Western countries, in some cases, allowed, and in other cases, actively participated in, the mass-murder of almost all of the Jewish people in Europe.

Soon after World War II, Allan Dulles, the then-head of the newly-founded CIA, recruited several thousand German former officials of the Nazi regime of Germany to the CIA. Those German former officials of the Nazi regime of Germany formed the founding bulk and core of the CIA. The Nazi regime of Germany was an ideologically-based political regime whose members were all adherents of its ideology, and which was an ideology whose central belief was the belief in an evil world-wide Jewish conspiracy to destroy what the members of the Nazi regime of Germany called "Christian civilization", and was an ideology whose central goal was the annihilation of the Jewish people. The fact that the founding membership of the Secret Service agency of the United States of America was constituted mainly of several thousand former officials of the Nazi regime of Germany is not trivial. The fact that this is rationalized as being "acceptable" by, and is considered trivial by, some people is a manifestation of the deep profound engrained nature of anti-Jewish bigotry in Western society. The Nazi regime of Germany was fully supported by, and endorsed by, the Christian Catholic Church. The fact that the Nazi regime of Germany was fully supported by and endorsed by the Christian Catholic Church is not trivial. The fact that the Nazi regime of Germany was fully supported by, and endorsed by, the Christian Catholic Churcht is ignored and denied by millions of people in Western societies is a manifestation of the deep profound engrained nature of anti-Jewish bigotry in Western society. The CIA and the State Department of the United States of America have, for several decades, been engaged in an effort to undermine the country of the Jewish people, Israel. This is not trivial.

Western (Culturally Christian-European) Anti-Jewish Bigotry and The Role It Plays in The Current Situation in The World

The following is an essay that was posted, as multiple comments, by an anonymous commenter, on a post on the blog A Liberal Defence of Israel ( http://mid-eastplus.blogspot.com ), which is a blog by Denis Maceoin.

http://mid-eastplus.blogspot.com/2010/07/lies-lies-and-lies-about-lies.html?showComment=1279117634509#c4188327328578745386

Today, there are many countries that have a profound sense of cultural identity, which clearly shows in their traditional approach to answering life's great questions by way of religion.

Many countries for instance adhere to traditional Buddhist concepts that have shaped their identity, like Japan, Taiwan or Thailand. Hinduism has shaped India. Many countries on the other hand recognize themselves as inheritors of Christian traditions (at the very least in the nominal sense), and quite a lot of others would define themselves as Islamic states by default. (even if some of them are officially considered secular governments)

Alas, some religious adherents are likely to emphasize and embrace a particular part of their traditional religious ideology as one of the main core concepts, making all spiritual content de facto redundant. To such fanatics, Anti-Semitism overrules all ethical/spiritual concepts such a religion might hold.

Regardless of my own opinions on religion (being a secular humanist, rather than religiously inspired in any way), I find it strikingly odd that there seems to be such an awful lot of disproportionate opposition to the notion of Zionism as a logical outcome of Jews' desire to constitute the boundaries of a nation-state that has its profound roots in Judaism. It is quite clear to me that the concept of cultural identity stems from a longing to feel secure and united among those who share a more or less common culture and ancestry and share the same vision on what the future of this cultural identity should look like. A nation-state therefore is the best means to preserve cultural identity. It is quite worrying today that Western self-proclaimed intelligentsia have taken it upon them to pursue the inherent Anti-Semitic rhetoric which is inherent to Islam as a totalitarian ideology, to revile the policies of a nation like Israel, whereas the same people would never find cause to stick their noses in the internal policies of other nation-states, such as the ones mentioned above.

This more or less suggests to me the ridiculous claim of the Left that Anti-Semitism and Anti-Zionism can be treated as separate issues is just a ruse, and basically not worth getting into further, seeing as the Left would never admit to being wrong. Therefore, being nitpicky on such a matter is futile when addressing the 'Moonbat International' directly. Anti-Zionism fits snugly into the main concept of anti-Judaism as a whole in my mind. So there IS a point in outlining the issue from a general perspective, rather than from a polemical one: the mere fact that so many self-declared 'morally righteous' intellectuals display such a great deal of criticism of Israel's policies (while others consistently get off scot-free) is evidence enough of the fact that both are intertwined.

Europe in particular has long carried the first wave of Anti-Semitism, starting with the advent of Christianity and the globalisation of Roman-Catholicism and therefore predating Islamic Anti-Selitism by at least 600 years. Some people I have debated with in my own personal surroundings have been trying to make me understand that, for instance, there can be no morality without religion. Something I try to disprove in many ways. One of these issues (concerning Christianity in particular) evolves around the concept of some Christians' dogmatic tendency to willy-nilly cling to the historic Christian aversion towards Jews, based on the belief that Jews have actually and intentionally killed God. (Deicide) It is quite odd that such Christians have subscribed to the contemporary Anti-Semitic mythological propaganda of the Liberal left on the one hand, and still seem to think they are able to bludgeon me with the notion that they represent 'Ethical Christianity' ! Conversely, the same also applies to those secular liberals who are marketing their brand of liberalism as ethical, when their Anti-Semitic propaganda seems to be deeply rooted in the same type of Christianity they traditionally proclaim to abhor ! Somehow, I wonder why on earth this concept has emerged intermittently throughout the history of Europe to mobilise people en masse against the cultural entity Jews constitute, and why it seems to have taken precedence over all other issues as of late, to both Christians and secular liberals. In my mind, it would be inhumane to conceive religion in such a way that the vehement a priori hatred of a culturally distinct group should be incorporated by default into a religion that calls itself ethical. (which also makes Islam at fault, in more than one way even, make no mistake about it)

Being shameful enough as this is, it also has spawned many Anti-Semitic conspiracy theories to 'substantiate' the central tenet of Deicide. And as a consequence, such a prejudiced type of thinking has kept re-affirming itself even during the Reformation. (Calvinism, Lutheranism,...etc) Even the mind of Enlightenment thinkers became infested with it. And in the end, it became the staple diet of authoritarian ideologies, such as Nazism and even Stalinism.(Soviet Anti-Semitism was dressed up as Zionology, a term designed to make anti-Semitism look scientifically 'viable')

Anti-Judaism is not a concept that belongs exclusively to either the left or the right, as we well know today. It couldn't be more obvious in 2010 that even those who proclaim to be progressive liberals are still profoundly infected with what is essentially known as a deeply (and humanely uncalled for) Christian concept. Being sceptical of all religions, and specifically when they behave like totalitarian doctrines that incorporate pre-conceived attitudes toward cultural minorities, it seems to me that those who claim to be independent thinkers in this day and age in a sense still behave like medieval paupers mobilised by Christian propaganda to wage war on Jews. And therefore, it should only be natural to them (I suppose) to go committing themselves to the 'Palestinian cause'. Seemingly paradoxical, the Left clings to this cause with the sublimated religious fervor and fanaticism which is akin to medieval European Christianity !

Ridiculous as it may seem, it is quite clear to me that progressive liberals have de-'Christianized' this long anti-Semitic legacy in order to not look bigoted or conservative, but as a matter of fact nothing has changed. Today some Christians still lay emphasis on this despicable legacy of prejudice, alongside neo-Nazis, Leftists and even some secular Humanists, and across political borders they forge bonds with each other on this very issue, and taking Islamic anti-Semitism into account as a means to justify their actions and thoughts, even !

Not being Jewish myself, I can't really understand what makes some people in the Western world seem so deeply 'traumatized' by a type of unquestioned, ill-conceived propaganda that has been handed down from one generation to the next throughout history to still warrant such criticism of Israel. As if some layers of society are profoundly indoctrinated and predestined to cling to Anti-Semitism like the proverbial 'shit to a blanket'. As if they behave like Pavlovian dogs that have been conditioned to drool or bark as soon as the word 'Israel' gets mentioned. Which inevitably begs the question how liberated these so-called liberals really are. Considering the fact that Jews have created a nation-state on the very basis that they couldn't possibly have guaranteed their long-term safety as a cultural entity in Europe at some points in history, it is quite self-explanatory to me that Anti-Zionism = Anti-Semitism. We have no business in meddling with the internal affairs of Israel, unless the point of this would be to openly demonstrate how intolerant we are (!)

Those who want to fanatically cling to the despicable notion that someone is identifiably perpetually guilty of some mythical wrongdoing by default, can't ever expect to point their finger of 'moral supremacy' at me and think they can get away with it unchallenged. Those who make such claims are not ethical to begin with, neither are they morally superior in any way. And whether they like to call themselves Christians or secular liberals or whatever is really beside the point.

However, this doesn't necessarily imply that ALL Christians, or secular liberals are to blame. Quite the contrary, rather. Which means I also recognize the fact that those Christians, liberals, conservatives and secular Humanists (among others) in the West that have abolished this myth of 'Innate Guilt of Jews' from their personal belief system are indeed worthy of the praise that's due to them and the blogs they have created, for they realise, just as I have, that perpetuating such myths can only be attributed to those people who first and foremost want to covet a rotten mind, hating for the sake of hatred itself, and nothing more than that. To me, there is definitely a clear distinction between those who treat religion or secular ideology as a transcendent Absolute Truth that cannot be questioned in any way and those who have criticized the troublesome aspects of religion and politics from a personal viewpoint (both Christians and others alike), in order to adapt and transform both to a belief that envisions religion/philosophy as something that can be truly ethical. As long as religion and ideology behave in a dogmatic fashion and people enslave themselves to tunnel-vision, our society can't possibly call itself liberated in any way, and anti-Semitism will remain part and parcel of a despicable legacy that to some (rather than many, I hope) still has unquestionable 'validity'.

I am afraid though, that this issue has not been adressed sufficiently by some of these blogs however. Although some ideologies that dress up as religions, like Islam, are fundamentally inhumane, this should not make us blind to the fact that some Christian religious fanatics have made common cause with Islamists, just like the Left-wing and neo-Nazis have done. Anti-Semitism in fact is a much older 'tradition' than we would like to be reminded of, regardless of the innate inhumanity of Islam.

The following is a link to an article that presents the nature of the psychology of Western (Christian-European) anti-Jewish bigotry.

"Worth a thousand Words - Picturing the Antisemitic Imagination"; The article begins on the page down past the top of the page
http://web.mac.com/catherinechatterley/Catherine_Chatterley/Publications.html

The Responsibility of Members of the Republican Party for the Current Situation

The eugenics movement was founded in the United States by wealthy ethnically West-European industrialists and financiers in the United States who, I think, were members of the Republican political establishment of the United States, and who, I think, subsequently financed the Nazi regime of Germany.

I think that senior members of the Republican political establishment of the United States were colluders with the members of, and, subsequently, were supporters of, and colluders with, former members of, the Nazi regime of Germany. The vast majority of the officials of the Nazi regime of Germany, including the majority of the senior officials of the Nazi regime of Germany, were never arrested nor captured nor tried for crimes. The fact that this is the case and that this is ignored, and viewed as being trivial by the Western world, is a demonstration of, and a manifestation of, the deep profound anti-Jewish bigotry that is a normal, normative, engrained part of culturally Christian-European - Christian and post-Christian - culture. The vast majority of the officials of the Nazi regime of Germany lived out, and are living out, their lives as free people, and, I think, continued, and are continuing, their ideology, and developed a strategy of the organization of their political movement as an underground movement, and, I think, formed powerful organizations and commercial corporations.

The original, and the most instrumental, agent in bringing adherents of the Nazi-influenced, formerly-Nazi-allied, modern Islamic-Supremacist political movement into positions of influence in the United States, was Grover Norquist, a member of the Republican political establishment.

The Responsibility of Members of Western Academia for, and The Responsibility of Members of The Democratic Political Party for, the Current Situation

The Jewish-conspiracy-theory-based anti-Jewish anti-Israeli movement in the United States was most influentially instigated by the lie-filled, Jewish-conspiracy-theory-lie-propagating, anti-Jewish anti-Israeli propaganda book "The Israel Lobby" by academics Walt Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt, and by the lie-filled, lie-propagating, anti-Jewish anti-Israeli book "Peace not Apartheid" by former representative of the Democratic party and former President of the United States, Jimmy Carter.

In the book "The Israel Lobby" by John Mearshimer and Stephen Walt, Mearshimer and Walt falsely claim that there is popular support in Israel for the forcible transfer of Arab people, which is falsely claimed popular support that, and which is population transfer that, Mearshimer and Walt denounce. The following is what Israeli journalist Ben Dror Yemini wrote about the policy of population transfer that John Mearsheimer advocated in a situation that did not involve the country of the Jewish people.

"It is interesting, however, that Mearsheimer, who fulminates against Israel for the popular support for transfer, himself wrote in a New York Times op-ed in 1993 that the only solution to the chaos in the Balkans was the creation of "ethnically homogeneous states." Needless to say, as Mearsheimer wrote, "Creating homogeneous states would require transferring populations and drawing new borders""

"Ben-Dror Yemini: 'And the World is Lying' - The Plight of the Refugees"
http://www.solomonia.com/blog/archives/009518.shtml

One of the most influential agents of the political policy of undermining the country of the Jewish people, Israel, is Zbigniew Brzezinski, who was the National Security Advisor of Jimmy Carter during the United States Presidential Administration of Jimmy Carter, and who was the National Security Advisor of Barack Obama.

Zbigniew Brzezinski started the global Islamic-Supremacist movement.

Zbigniew Brzezinski supported the overthrow of the Shah of Iran and orchestrated the bringing to power of the Islamic-Supremacist Ayatolla Ruhollah Khoeini as the ruler of Iran as, and brought to power the Taliban and al-Qaeda in Afghanistan as, part of an effort that Brzezinski engaged in which he viewed as being an strategic effort to destroy the Soviet Union by unleashing Islamic terrorism against the Soviet Union.

The following is an excerpt of an interview, from 1998, with Zbigniew Brzezinski in the French newspaper Le Nouvel Observateur (Jan 15-21, 1998, p. 76*)

"Brzezinski: What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Moslems or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war?

Q: Some stirred-up Moslems? But it has been said and repeated: Islamic fundamentalism represents a world menace today.

Brzezinski: Nonsense! It is said that the West had a global policy in regard to Islam. That is stupid. There isn't a global Islam. Look at Islam in a rational manner and without demagoguery or emotion. It is the leading religion of the world with 1.5 billion followers. But what is there in common among Saudi Arabian fundamentalism, moderate Morocco, Pakistan militarism, Egyptian pro-Western or Central Asian secularism? Nothing more than what unites the Christian countries."

Zbigniew Brzezinski consciously destroyed two nations, Iran and Afghanistan, of which one, Iran, was an ally of the United States, in order to achieve a goal that he wanted to achieve, and Zbigniew Brzezinski consciously unleashed the global Islamic-Supremacist movement, which he viewed, and, I think, still views, as not being a serious danger to the whole world.

I remember hearing or reading an interview of someone who recounted having a meal with Zbigniew Brzezinski and his wife, and who recounted that Brzezinski's wife began to verbally attack Israel, slandering Israel, and that when he, that person, started to say something to correct her, Brzezinski's wife shouted at him something like, or shouted exactly, "Shut up! You don't know what you're talking about!"

The Current State of the Relationship Between Western Academia and The Islamic Supremacist Current Regime of Iran

"Relating to Iran, in seminar and in person" - Jackson Institute fellow arranges private meeting with Iranian president for students in her graduate seminar; Yale hosts friendly meeting of Yale students with Mahmoud Amadenijad; the text of the caption from the photo in the article: "Thirteen Yale students met with Iranian President Ahmadinejad after his controversial speech at the UN last Thursday."
http://www.yaledailynews.com/news/2010/sep/27/relating-to-iran-in-seminar-and-in-person/

------

Daniel Bielak
http://www.youtube.com/user/danielbielak

Correction:

I wrote,

"Walt Mearsheimer"

which should be,

"John Mearsheimer"

Daniel Bielak,

Even if you were on topic you definitely take too much space. Do you really expect anyone reading to the end that disjointed and basically anecdotal dissertation of yours?

...And in conclusion????

Chatillon,

The conclusion is midway in what I wrote, and is the following.

The Following is What Must Be Done

In order to protect the Jewish people in the country of the Jewish people, Israel, from being mass-murdered by the Islamic-Supremacist regime of Iran and its proxies, and in order to protect the whole world from being violently attacked by, and infiltrated by, and taken over by, and subsequently enslaved by, the modern Islamic-Supremacist political movement, Jewish people, and non-Jewish people, and, most importantly, the members of the government of Israel, need to honestly, accurately, clearly, effectively communicate the factual currently 90 year history and current reality of the situation the Israel is in to the members of the governments of Western countries and to the whole world.

Most importantly, in order to wake up the members of the societies of Western free democratic countries to the nature of the modern Islamic-Supremacist political movement, the Nazi German history and legacy of the 'Palestinian movement', which was founded by Amin al-Husseini, who was a member of, and an early leader of, the Muslim Brotherhood, and who was an adjoined official of the Nazi Regime of Germany, and who was the co-architech the genocide of the Jewish people in Europe by the Nazi regime of Germany, and who was the mentor of, and an uncle of, Egyptian-born Yasser Arafat (Mohammed Yasser Abdel Rahman Abdel Raouf Arafat al-Qudwa al-Husseini), who, in 1954, in Egypt, founded Fatah under the guidance of Amin al-Husseini, must be communicated to the societies of Western free democratic countries.

Correction:

I wrote,

"...the factual currently 90 year history and current reality of the situation the Israel is in..."

which should be,

"...the factual currently 90 year history and current reality of the situation that Israel is in.

@dumbledoresarmy

First of all, i would like to say to you, the situation in China is different from western countries, our muslims follow chinese culture, confucianism, and yours are from different cultures and ethnic groups, i am not advocating a pro muslim position in EUROPE or AMERICA, but what i am saying is that you should not should not slander our muslims because the situation is entirely different. when muslims in your countries call for violence, and they are clearly not following the laws, then they should be deported, but you don't know anything about China or Taiwan.

don't believe that i originate from Taiwan? Go to taipei, taiwan yourself, and see the Taipei Grand Mosque, go look up all the Generals i mentioned that lived in Taiwan, go look up the dozens of muslim restaurants in Taiwan.

you don't seem to have read my post correctly at all.

NOWHERE did i say wahabis ever fought a jihad in China. All wars (chinese muslims never even declared a jihad) in China were fought by the Jahriyya Sufi sect, however, the Khufiyya Sufis were rivals to Jahriyya, and they helped the government stamp them out. They even engaged in lawsuits to sue each other out of existence using the legal system in China.

I only said that the specific generals i mentioned HATED wahhabis, because the Generals were Sufi

Go look up Bai Chongxi, who was a direct military advisor to the president. General Ma Chingchiang, another muslim, and advisor to the Republic of China president in Taiwan, and countless other members of the Ma Clique muslim warlords.

Bai Chongxi even smashed apart Buddhist temples with approval from the Confucianist minded President, Chiang Kaishek. Confucianism actually opposes buddhism, since buddhism supports celibacy and monasticism, which Confucians condemn as un chinese, and unfilial. On the other hand, Islam itself condemns celibacy like confucianism, and many chinese scholars fused islam and confucianism together, like Liu Zhi, who wrote the Han Kitab.

Many muslims in china and taiwan see themselves as more confucian than buddhists do. Confucianism is much closer to Islam, than Buddhism or Daoism, Confucian chinese Emperors persecuted Daoists as heretics.

They all fought against, and crushed the communists, Tibetans, Uyghurs, and Japanese invaders. One of them, Ma Fuxiang, became a blood brother to Chiang Kaishek, the President of the Republic of China on Taiwan, and Ma Fuxiang fought against European, American, Russian, and Japanese forces in the Boxer Rebellion. Ma Zhongying defeated and humiliated the Soviet and white russian armies. Since they are affiliated with the kuomintang party, which is in control of Taiwan, we are not islamophobic because we are proud of their military contributions to China. There was also the muslim 81st corps under Ma Hongbin, and the Qinghai army under General Ma Biao, both muslim, which were among the units which defeated and humiliated japanese armies in World War 2.

The Government in Taiwan even had Bai Chongxi deliver a radio broadcast calling for muslims in the Soviet Union to go on a Jihad against the Russians.

If we reject muslims, then we are rejecting every single military victory we achieved over enemy forces in all these wars.

The Chinese Muslim Association, directly linked by funding and military to the Republic of China government (Taiwan), spread messages urging muslim troops to fight to the death in the path of Islam against opposing forces. this is exactly what they did in world war 2 against the Axis NAZI ally Japan. Chinese culture and confucianism were promoted among muslims by the association, They are only opposed to foreign enemies. The Chinese muslim association is still active today on Taiwan.

This is not like europe, where muslims don't have any particular culture and call for replacing political systems with islamic theocracy. no such muslim in China made any calls.

On the other hand, many christian and buddhists offered no resistance to Japan during the war, Buddhist monks were tortured and humiliated during the Rape of Nanjing, Chinese christian schoolgirls were raped by Japanese troops. turning their cheek and getting slapped on the face, as Jesus said in the Bible, was what they offered Japan.

The Japanese were not able to capture any chinese muslims alive, because chinese muslim soldiers fought to the death, and the civilians commited suicide in an act of shaxide (martyrdom). Ma Fuxiang himself said that muslims would die to follow orders.

If you have a better suggestion, i'm all for hearing what you have to say, since you are apparently for kicking out our most fanatical warriors out of our military and leaving us military weakened and opened to humiliation.

During the Bai Lang rebellion, muslims under General Ma Qi protected non muslim chinese civilians from the Bandit Bai Lang. Also as i mentioned during the Boxer Rebellion, non muslim chinese civilians were practically cheering the muslim Kansu Braves troops on as they fought against the western forces, who performed mass murders of chinese civilians and rapes.

go look up Kansu Braves yourself, in any book on the Boxer Rebellion, or here on the internet.

the chinese Emperor Hongwu of the Ming dynasty, was an islamophile. He had 10 muslim Generals, and built dozens of mosques. Hongwu was a strict confucianist, and most notably banned buddhist sects like white lotus, and the nestorian christian church, but approved Islam as a legal religion in China.

muslims do not make up a majority of any province in China, now and never in the past either, yet they made up over 90% of the military and officer corps of the northwest provinces, of Gansu, Ningxia, and Qinghai, and many chinese Muslims served as officers in the standard chinese army too, their military service is over proportion compared to ordinary chinese, and far more than the Uyghurs. Because unlike non muslim chinese, Chinese muslims have no qualms about serving in the military and are more warlike than any other people. This isn't just about islam, its their way of life, the Uyghurs are muslims but they aren't warlike, in fact, the Uyghurs pretty much suck at fighting.

This is why Uyghurs were not conscripted at all into the Chinese army, even in their home province of Xinjiang, but many of the garrisons were manned by Hui chinese muslims instead.

The government in Taiwan congragulated the ma clique muslim generals for holding out against the Soviet Union, Uyghurs, and the Communists past 1950, and dropped air supplies to them,

if our army is denuded of muslims, we will literally look like gigalos, strippers, and clowns. A few years ago, there was a scandal over men having oral sex in the military in Taiwan. In mainland china, they are being taught communist style "peoples" warfare and do not know how to fight properly, merely adopting the training tactics of other countries, yes its harsh, but a soldier who has been through physical training hell, but doesn't have any mental will, isn't worth anything.

There was a non muslim Chinese General, Yang Zengxin, who praised chinese muslim troops for crushing Uyghur rebels, complimenting their fighting skills. Yang even refused to recruit non muslim han chinese into his army, han divisions only existed on paper, while with the help of Imams, he recruited thousands of Chinese muslim troops. He then deployed them to kill Uyghur rioters and rival warlords. Every time a Uyghur muslim rebel in Kashgar was executed and killed it was by the chinese muslim Generals in charge of the region.

In case you hadn't noticed, this thread is devoted to 'Remembrance Day', which focuses primarily on the heroism of Allied soldiers defeating Prussian tyranny during World War One.

You are massively off-topic and committing a gross discourtesy in so doing. So kindly do not post again in this thread.

If you think your pet Muslims in Taiwan are special and different from Muslims everywhere else in the world, and won't eventually turn on a dime and do what Muslims have done to the surrounding non-Muslims, as soon as they felt powerful enough to get away with it, everywhere else they have gone throughout history, you are in for a dreadful shock sooner or later.

If you have allowed Muslims to infiltrate and take over your army, all I can say is that you are STUPID. Letting Muslims do your fighting for you is like using a sword that will one day turn in your hand and chop off your head! A Muslim qua Muslim *cannot* be ultimately loyal to anything except the Ummah. And slack Muslims, inactive Muslims, nice moderate Muslims you have lived beside all your life, have a distressing habit of suddenly morphing into active Muslims...you are playing 'Muslim roulette'.

Have you even *read* the Quran? The Sira? The Hadith?

Here are two things for you to read (assuming that you are not, yourself, a Mohammedan, in which case, why should I believe a word you're saying? MUSLIMS LIE and they are very, very good at it).

Article from Times Online: September 8, 2007

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article2409833.ece

'Our followers ‘must live in peace until strong enough to wage jihad’

- Andrew Norfolk

“Our followers ‘must live in peace until strong enough to wage jihad’.

'One of the world’s most respected Deobandi scholars believes that aggressive military jihad should be waged by Muslims “to establish the supremacy of Islam” worldwide.

'Justice Muhammad Taqi Usmani argues that Muslims should live peacefully in countries such as Britain, where they have the freedom to practise Islam, only until they gain enough power to engage in battle.

'His views explode the myth that the creed of offensive, expansionist jihad represents a distortion of traditional Islamic thinking.'...

http://www.meforum.org/2538/taqiyya-islam-rules-of-war

"How Taqiyya Alters Islam's Rules of War: Defeating Jihadist Terrorism," by Raymond Ibrahim in the Middle East Quarterly, Winter 2010.

Now, drop it, mate, and leave any further argument for a different thread when it will be more on-topic.

With you completely here, dda. I don't know who this turkey is who has debated with you about the goodness of many Chinese Muslims, but I suspect that he's a Muslim himself, that or a very submissive Chinese dhimmi.

Instructive, isn't it, how much crap you have to cut through at times to insure that truth does not take a back seat to wickedness and deception? Ah, lies are so powerful, especially when they pose as truths so obvious that even questioning them results in accusations of bigotry. Shades of Joseph Goebbels we're faced with, my friend. Time and time again.

If this is indeed about the men who died on the allied side, why is there no remembrance of non western men who served as troops and laborers during the war? Why only western soldiers get remembered?

Kaiser Wilhelm, the prussian "hun" one of the instigators of World War I, was also active in promoting the Boxer Rebellion, and active in trying to lure muslims to his side.

He totally forgot that chinese muslims knew nothing of the Ottoman Empire, and would not be won over by silly gestures he made to muslims in balkans, middle east, and north africa.

Its awfully strange on how Europeans and westerners emphasize Kaiser Wilhelm's cruelty to belgians in WWI and other "crimes", when they justify their participation, along with the Kaiser's troops in the Boxer expedition in China. As you know, Australian troops participated in the Boxer expedition on the western side, along with the Prussian troops of the Kaiser.

"all" foreigners are considered barbarians by all chinese, there is no distinguishing between non muslims, and muslims, by chinese muslims, and non chinese muslims. Several Turks were murdered by Boxer troops working with chinese muslims during the War, and turkish officers had their nails skewered out and uyghurs were beheaded by chinese muslim forces in the dungan revolt.

This is not about religion, this is about race and racism. Not a single non western country was given a voice at Versailles.

let us remember that Arabs participated on the allied side, in the arab revolt against the ottoman turkish Empire. Arab muslims killed turkish muslims to fight for their freedom. They also saved armenians during the genocide the Turks inflicted on them. I see no remembrance memorials for arab dead. I see no remembrance memorials for chinese laborers who assisted the allies during the war.

assumming that i am indeed who you say i am, and practicing "taquiyya", anyone can google the names "chinese muslim association", "Bai Chongxi", "Ma Qi", "Taipei Grand Mosque", and "Ma Bufang", on their own, and find tons of non muslim sources describing the topics that they googled

There are no deobandis in China or taiwan, Islam is not like your Papist latin Catholics or your Greek Orthodox churches, you must obey your pope and patriarch, but muslims can totally disregard orders from Imams in other countries, muslims in Taiwan only listen to Imam Ma Chaoyen, who wrote a speech called "Taiwan Muslims' Struggle to Survive", emphasizing the need for chinese muslims in taiwan to reinforce Chinese culture and confucianism against decadant western globalization.

i would take people who protect traditional chinese culture over those who promote souless materialism.

anyone can google T"aiwan Muslims's Struggle to Survive" and find the link to his speech.

Your armstice day is a big joke since it only remembers western dead and ignores colored people.

Hmmm. Where to begin. First of all, you seem to have a lot of stored up venom for Caucasians. Describing others as haters when you're a hater yourself kinda' diminishes your argument, not that you have noticed.

Second, it is clear that facts are optional for you. You assert that the Kaiser promoted the Boxer Rebellion, but how can this be when the chief German minister in China was murdered by the Boxers and the German general, von Waldersee, engaged in significant punitive measures because of this assassination? In fact, the Boxers were a group of bloody, xenophobic psychopaths, supported and unleashed by the pathetic Dowager Empress, and who slaughtered many, particularly Chinese converts to Christianity. Yes, European imperialism understandably was humiliating to the Chinese, but it's not as though the Chinese are guiltless through the centuries of dominating others when the opportunity presented itself. Also, a people so easily dominated, as the Chinese were in the nineteenth century, have to question how such an event could occur if pride, ingenuity and strength were possessed by them in large measure.

Third, Armistice Day (Veterans Day) is celebrated in the West due to the fact, duh, that millions of Westerners lost their lives in the Great War. This day doesn't exclude anyone; it's just that it is understandable that any people would mourn their own dead. Again your racism is showing.

Fourth, the Arabs for over five hundred years did nothing to alleviate Ottoman rule and languished in a desert stupor until WWI when, especially the Brits, enlisted them to fight (finally) against their masters. And such fighting by Arabs was quite limited. Little praise is deserved here. But for the Allies prevailing in WWI, Arabs would have continued doing next to nothing to achieve their independence from the Turks.

That's enough for now. For my money, though, you can take it and shove it.

dda:

I believe that the Aussies are our only TRUE allies in the Western world.They have been side-by-side with us in every conflict - the only ones to do so.

God Bless Australia! ! !

Clemens von Ketteler, the German foreigner minister, was executed by the Manchu (NOT CHINESE) Captain En hai, because he beat a citizen of China in the legation compound for absolutely no reason.

Kaiser Wilhelm started transgressions before the Boxer incident, by encouraging mass murder of civilians in the Shandong province of china, and stirring up fears of yellow peril.

Kaiser Wilhelm said nothing when thousands of armenian christians were butchered by ottoman turks in 1895, giving then a blank check, instead, he supplied more german arms to the turks.

but when two german missionaries were killed in china, he suddenly becomes "Enraged"!

And Chinese muslim forces punished the Germans for their transgressions, by killing several germans in riots after Ketteler arbitrailily felt the need to arrest and beat chinese citizens for no reason

let us remember that European caucasians were defeated and humiliated by china before, the dutch at the siege of fort zeelandia, the british at Taku Forts in 1859, the portuguese at the Battle of Tamao, all defeated by chinese forces. Alleged western superiority is nothing.

In 1934, the chinese Muslim General Ma Zhancang proceed to torch the british consulate and kill multiple british citizens, after he killed 4,000 Uyghur muslim rebels, some of them hiding in the British consulate in Kashgar.

The british, reporting from Delhi, raged that General ma was a "savage", yet he just laughed in their face, after years of arbitrarily killing chinese citizens, the west could do nothing when its own citizens were eliminated

Clemens von Ketteler, the German foreigner minister, was executed by the Manchu (NOT CHINESE) Captain En hai, because he beat a citizen of China in the legation compound for absolutely no reason.

Kaiser Wilhelm started transgressions before the Boxer incident, by encouraging mass murder of civilians in the Shandong province of china, and stirring up fears of yellow peril.

Kaiser Wilhelm said nothing when thousands of armenian christians were butchered by ottoman turks in 1895, giving then a blank check, instead, he supplied more german arms to the turks.

but when two german missionaries were killed in china, he suddenly becomes "Enraged"!

And Chinese muslim forces punished the Germans for their transgressions, by killing several germans in riots after Ketteler arbitrailily felt the need to arrest and beat chinese citizens for no reason.

And during the Boxer Rebellion, the Chinese muslim forces under Dong Fuxiang punished the western forces under Admiral Seymour, during his FAILED first attempted to march on Beijing on July 18th, in his first expedition. Letters written by troops on the expedition reported that chinese snipers were literally massacring them. After two months, Admiral Seymour had to try again before capturing Beijing in his SECOND attempt.

go read "China in convulsion, Volume 2" by arthur smith, and "D'Arcs Marionettes Caught Up in the Boxer Siege of Peking and Tientsin Chinas Ford of Heaven", which describe the humiliation of western troops by chinese forces on the first expedition.

Mr. Smith records that="The dramatic incidents of this attempted relief expedition attracted universal attention, and whatever else the enterprise may have accomplished it disposed once for all of the the favourite proposition so often advanced that it would be possibe for a small but well organized and thoroughly equipped foreign force to march through China from end to end without effective opposition"

let us remember that European caucasians were defeated and destroyed by china before, the dutch at the siege of fort zeelandia, the british at Taku Forts in 1859, the portuguese at the Battle of Tamao, all defeated by chinese forces. Alleged west superiority is nothing.

In 1934, the chinese Muslim General Ma Zhancang proceed to torch the british consulate and kill multiple british citizens, after he killed 4,000 Uyghur muslim rebels, some of them hiding in the British consulate in Kashgar, in the Battle of Kashgar.

The british, reporting from Delhi, raged that General Ma was a "savage", yet he just laughed in their face, after years of arbitrarily killing chinese citizens, the west could do nothing when its own citizens were eliminated

You don't seem to comprehend that criticizing Caucasians for any brutality is negated when you glory in Asians doing the same thing. Also, you fail to understand that the distinction between Manchu and Chinese means next to nothing to those in the West. And besides, the Dowager Emnpress had, by 1900, "appropriated" the Boxers as her own. Moreover, the Boxers were a bunch of rabid loons. You know this or should know it.

The fact of the matter is that China's haughtiness towards Western Civilization, thinking itself still superior to a civilization that had eclipsed it in almost every way, came back to bite China in the ass. Even to this day, all the Chinese can do (like the Japanese) is just try to improve upon inventions by the West, which the Asian world would have never developed in the first place, stymied by a dearth of freedom and an inability to "think outside the box." Yep, very Asian.

And regarding Chinese Muslims and what they have done, who gives a damn considering that Islam is nothing more than a spiritual version of totalitarianism, something else you don't get, being as you are someone who doesn't realize the importance of true freedom. In short, your many limitations are showing most noticeably. And you remain clueless of this. Good.

Pascals' triangle was discovered in China by Yang Hui, before the European Pascal discovered it, Negative numbers were first discovered by chinese, the first gunpowder formula was made by chinese, the first porcelein was made by chinese, the first compass was made by chinese, Chinese ships under Zheng He dwarfed european caravels.

and in Taiwan, a 96% literacy rate has been achieved with chinese characters, in china, it is 90%, chinese characters are much harder to learn than roman alphbet.

In addition, many chinese muslims are fluent and literate in arabic, which also has a much more complex script, in addition to chinese.

in most western countries, i only see people of average intelligence learning another simple indo european language with the same script.

i fail to how this is superior culture and intelligence.

I forgot to submit this as a reply instead of a separte comment so i'm posting this again. the earlier double post was accidental

Pascals' triangle was discovered in China by Yang Hui, before the European Pascal discovered it, Negative numbers were first discovered by chinese, the first gunpowder formula was made by chinese, the first porcelein was made by chinese, the first compass was made by chinese, Chinese ships under Zheng He dwarfed european caravels.

and in Taiwan, a 96% literacy rate has been achieved with chinese characters, in china, it is 90%, chinese characters are much harder to learn than roman alphbet.

In addition, many chinese muslims are fluent and literate in arabic, which also has a much more complex script, in addition to chinese.

in most western countries, i only see people of average intelligence learning another simple indo european language with the same script.

i fail to how this is superior culture and intelligence.

Ten cents says that our exceedingly ill-mannered disruptor 'Maooierywer' is a Hui Muslim...and I wouldn't mind betting, a Muslim supremacist behind his Chinese supremacist mask.

His claim that "many chinese muslims are fluent and literate in arabic" rather makes nonsense of his representation of Chinese Muslims - whether in Taiwan or on the Mainland - as being thoroughly-loyal and acculturated citizens of the circumambient Chinese polities, for to put it bluntly, wherever *else* we see Muslims devoting themselves to 'learning Arabic' (99 % of Arabic literature is about Islam, Islam, Islam) we see Muslims getting all fired up for Jihad.

Uncle Kepha. Uncle Kepha. Where are you?

We need our resident Presbyterian Chinese-American, solidly grounded in Chinese history, to hit this Chinese Muslim with a thundering broadside...in Chinese.

As for Chinese culture. Yes, the Chinese have invented some interesting stuff (and written some beautiful poetry).

But the fact remains, modern science as we know it today, as a formalised intellectual enterprise, only truly took off in the West.

See Toby E Huff - The Rise of Early Modern Science: Islam, China and the West. Or one could also see Ibn Warraq's 'Defending the West'.

Huff's book is mentioned in this comprehensive essay:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2008/08/fjordman-on-science-and-religion.html


Excerpts:

"...three different civilizations, the Islamic world, the Christian East (the Byzantine Empire) and the Christian West had access to much of the same material, yet ... the end results were quite different".

'The European university system had no real equivalent in any other major civilization in the world at the time.

'As Toby Huff says in his book, page 234:

"We should also not underestimate the magnitude of the step taken when it was decided (in part, following ancient tradition) to make the study of philosophy and all aspects of the natural world an official and public enterprise.

"If this seems a mundane achievement, it is due to our Eurocentrism which forgets that the study of the natural sciences and philosophy was shunned in the Islamic colleges of the Middle East and that all such inquiries were undertaken in carefully guarded private settings.

"Likewise, in China, there were no autonomous institutions of learning independent of the official bureaucracy; the ones that existed were completely at the mercy of the centralized state.

"Nor were philosophers given the liberty to define for themselves the realms of learning as occurred in the West."



Western Civilization invented democracy, the scientific method, an artistic tradition second to none (e.g., ancient Greek architecture and sculpture, Romanesque and Gothic cathedrals, the Italian Renaissance, Baroque art, etc.) a musical corpus with the likes of Bach, Moazart and Beethoven that has never been equaled (Islam stupidly ignores music, in fact proscribes it) and a literay tradition that is extraordinary by any standard (e.g., Homer, Shakespeare, Moliere, Goethe, Dostoyevsky, Twain, et al.). Also, more inventions of all types, from calculus to the telegraph to the telephone to the radio to the TV to airplanes to nuclear power, have been made by the West than by any other civilization. Moreover, while every civilization has had slavery, it was Western Civilization that first came to the conclusion that it was a deep moral wrong and which then took steps to end it before any other civilization did. By contrast, the Islamic world continued the institution of slavery well into the twentieth century---Saudi Arabia only abolished it in 1962 and still the Islamic world has slavery in all but name. And China's record on human rights has been abysmal down to the present day. It's not wise, you know, to get into a contest here, to put it mildly.

I acknowledge the achievements of other civilizations, but for my money Western Civilization is AT LEAST the equal of any other in man's history. And no civilization has placed such an emphasis on the dignity and worth of the individual as has the West. You know this or should know it. As for Islamic socieites, they have been oppressors down to the present day and have mostly been copiers of other civilizations. As Bertrand Russell observed, the Islamic world has never produced a truly original thinker on the level with a Plato, an Aristotle, an Aquinas, a Newton or an Einstein.

I don't really like playing this game but your naked Asian racism and excessive apologies for Chinese Muslims has forced me to put you in your place. Respecting Islam, I am in accord with the great German philosopher, Arthur Schopenhauer, who referred to Islam as "that despicable doctrine." Anyone who can admire Mohammed is a confused human being; not bad necessarily but at least confused. Mohammed was a psychopath, a fraud, a brutal man and a sexual pervert. Can't get anywhere with me extolling him or the warped creed he founded, including any approbation extended to Chinese Muslims. I trust I have been crystal clear about everything.

ancient greeks copied their alphabet from the phoenicians, a semitic people. latin alphabet is derived from greek. The Arabs are semitic people and used their own script for their own language, chinese script is totally independent and invented by chinese.

all western achievements were accomplished with a semitic derived script, and arabic numerals.

Your alleged accusation of islam proscribing music is false. muhammad abdal wahab was one of many Arab composers who composed magnificent and original musical scores. there is pop music all over the arab world, and in China, muslims play musical instruments, one muslim General, Ma Zhongying, was famous for carrying a harmoniun to play muslim music and the muslim armies sang what was described as "Asiatic marching songs"

islamic socieities does not need original thinkers, because it is not nesecary to speculate on what the religion says is the truth. Plato questioned the society he was in, and its religion, which was why he was sentenced to death by drinking hemlock.

the western world is known for insulting and belittling the physical aspects of other races, yet Europeans like Sven Hedin feared even the mere appearance of Chinese muslim forces and Generals. Sven described Ma Zhongying as looking like the "fourth horseman" when the seal was broken in your alleged apocalypse that is written in your bible. His and the other forces of the muslim warlords were described as terrifying in battle, by european travelers like Peter Fleming, and others..

This message is to dumbledoresarmy, the mesage above this is to wellington

arabic language does not effect a person's mentality. If it makes men unloyal, we would not have seen muslim Generals like Ma Anliang leading his army under a chinese government banner to crush the forces of the Yaqub Beg Khanate, or the chinese muslim General Ma Bufang ordering the elimination of muslim kazakhs in Qinghai in 1936, or the Uyghur Islamic East Turkestan Republic being crushed in 1934 by the Chinese muslim General Ma Zhancang.

arab christians speak arabic, especially if you visit syria and jordan you will find they have no problem living with muslim arabs. And no, they are not the "arabdized" christians, unlike the copts of egypt, the Arab christians of Syria and Jordan are directly descended from ethnic Arab ghassanid christians. the egyptian copts are the original non arab inhabitants of who have been linguistically arabdized. Copts have major problems with muslims because arab nationalism failed in egypt, due to copts being non arab. But in Jordan and Syria, arab christians are like brothers to their arab muslim neighbors, they have arabic literature and speak arabic with non problem.

and the Muslim General Ma Fuxiang created an assimilationist group, to encourage muslims to assimilte in China. Confucian texts were taught to all educated chinese muslims, Ma himself practiced chinese calligraphy, read confucian texts, and even wrote in his Gazette on how he killed rebel muslims and severed their ears during the muslim revolt in 1895.

General Ma Fuxiang also knew arabic, and studied the Quran. your assertion about arabic somehow influencing political positions is false.

Ladies and gentlemen

our Chinese (?) Mohammedan continues with his gross discourtesy, his boasting and ignorant nonsense (he claims it was PLATO who died from drinking the hemlock, when in fact it was *Socrates*!!).

And he claims, forsooth, that Islam does not proscribe music!

Well: for starters, we could list a mountain of reports, from various parts of the Muslim world today, featuring the most zealous Muslims assassinating musicians and blowing up music shops and prohibiting even ring-tones on cell phones and the playing of music over the radio! In the UK, Muslim parents object to their children having music lessons at school; in Iran, music is no longer permitted to be taught in school.

The Qur'an never once mentions music as such (and the verses interpreted as referring to music, do so in a negative manner). Its depictions of paradise contain - unlike Christian descriptions of Heaven - no mention of music or singing whatsoever. And the Hadith persistently disparage music, whether sacred or profane, vocal or instrumental.

Hadee's-e-Qudsi 19:5 (Ahmad) The Prophet said that Allah commanded him to destroy all the musical instruments, idols, crosses and all the trappings of ignorance

(Bukhari 007.069.494v)

Narrated Abu 'Amir or Abu Malik Al-Ash'ari:
that he heard the Prophet saying,

"From among my followers there will be some people who will consider illegal sexual intercourse, the wearing of silk, the drinking of alcoholic drinks **and the use of musical instruments** {my emphasis - dda}, as lawful..."

Here's something a jihadwatch poster unearthed at the 'askimam' website:

http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=12923

The actual question is not important.
Answer 12923
1. According to Shariah, it is not permissible to watch TV due to the many un-Islamic issues in it.

2. It is also prohibited to listen to music.

Rasulullah (Salla Allahu alayhi wa sallam) said, There will be a nation from my Ummah who will make music their lot one day while enjoying their music and alcohol they will awake with their faces transformed into swine.

In fact, Rasulullah (Salaa Allahu Alayhi wa sallam) said, I was sent to destroy all musical instruments.
Instead of music rather listen to the Holy Quran.
and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best
Mufti Ebrahim Desai
- Posted by: Pelayo at September 26, 2006 5:57 PM

Muslim 24:5279
 - Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger as saying: "The bell is the musical instrument of the Satan." (And so, guided by this Hadith, wherever Muslims conquered, they silenced and destroyed church bells).

From the Umdat as-Salik the Reliance of the Traveller, a compendium of Islamic law that is still circulating freely in the Islamic world:

"...19. Musical instruments are unlawful

pp. 774-775

r40.0 MUSIC, SONG, AND DANCE

MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS 
r40.1

(Ibn Hajar Haytami:) As for the condemnation of musical instruments, flutes, strings and the like by the Truthful and Trustworthy (Allah bless him and give him peace), who
“does not speak from personal caprice: it is nothing besides a revelation inspired” (Koran 53:3-4),
let those who refuse to obey him beware lest calamity strike them, or a painful torment. The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said:

(1) “Allah Mighty and Majestic sent me as a guidance and mercy to believers and commanded me to do away with musical instruments, flutes, strings, crucifixes, and the affair of the pre-Islamic period of ignorance.”

(2) “On the Day of Resurrection, Allah will pour molten lead into the ears of whoever sits listening to a songstress.”

(3) “Song makes hypocrisy grow in the heart as water does herbage.”

(4) “This community will experience the swallowing up of some people by the earth, metamorphosis of some into animals, and being rained upon with stones.” Someone asked, “When will this be, O Messenger of Allah?” and he said, “When songstresses and musical instruments appear and wine is held to be lawful.”

(5) “There will be peoples of my Community who will hold fornication, silk, wine, and musical instruments to be lawful ….”

All of this is explicit and compelling textual evidence that musical instruments of all types are unlawful (Kaff al-ra’a’ ‘an muharramat al-lahw wa al-sama’ (y49), 2.269-70)."

And from the Mishkat al Masabih, a popular Hadith collection that one can buy online from Muslim bookshops today, the following two anecdotes about Mohammed's reaction to music:

"None raised up his voice with a song but allah sent him two devils upon his shoulders who beat his chest with their heels till he stopped".

'He [Mohammed] once heard the sound of a flute and put his fingers in his ears and turned to go another way'".

'Al Hadis, book 2, chapter 12, no. 283', and 'Al-Hadis, book 2, chapter 12, no 20'.

Etc.

And then our ill-mannered troll drops his mask altogether and comes out with a classic piece of typically Muslim nonsense. He claims, forsooth, that "in Jordan and Syria, arab christians are like brothers to their arab muslim neighbors". ROFLMAO.

(I observe even he does not *dare* to claim that this is the case in Iraq...the Assyrian Christians have suffered periodic pogroms at the hands of Muslims for centuries, which is why they, who were once the overwhelming majority of the population when the Muslims invaded and took over, are now a tiny, beleaguered minority. As they are, also, by the way, in Jordan and Syria. How does a majority become a minority, over time? DHIMMITUDE, one of the most fiendish systems of oppression ever devised by the depraved human mind).

The mountain of evidence contained in Bat Yeor's "The Dhimmi" and "The Decline of Eastern Christianity Under Islam", says that our Chinese Mohammedan dementor is LYING, flat-out lying. Not to mention the testimony of Antoine Fattal, in his monumental tome on the legal status of the non-Muslims in Muslim lands. And Mark Durie's book on dhimmitude blows the lid right off any claim that Muslims ever treated non-Muslims of any ethnic background like 'brothers' in any land where Muslims ruled.

There is plenty of evidence, today, from Gaza, Judea and Samaria, to show that Arabic-speaking Christians in those areas are abominably treated by the dear ever-lovin' arab muslim bruvvas. And I recall a report from Jordan, of a woman who was murdered by her Muslim family because she was proposing to follow her apostate-to-Christianity husband into his new faith. (The husband had to flee the country).

NOTE.

IF the Chinese/ Mohammedan troll posts again in this thread I will request that he be banned.

There is a limit to how much aggressive posturing and - I suspect - some kind of prepared cut-and-paste spiel - can be put up with.

Wellington and I have felt it necessary to respond to him, but I think he has far outstayed his welcome.

*Especially* in this thread.

I shall now, to take the thread back on topic somewhat, post something that treats of a significant episode in World War One, the taking of Beersheba from the Turkish Muslims and their authoritarian German allies. As an Australian, I feel immensely proud that my fellow countrymen had a part in bringing to an end the cruel centuries of Muslim domination and religio-political repression in at least part of the Holy Land, eretz Israel.

http://www.uniqueideas.biz/ZFA/pulse51/13.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4aqE-70v_w&feature=feedrec

Observe too, by the way, ladies and gentlemen, that our Chinese/ Mohammedan troll makes the usual false claim about 'arabic' numerals.

They were in fact invented by the HINDU INDIANS. They were adopted - *borrowed, copied*, in other words - and transmitted by the Arabs, but those numerals, including especially the zero, *were originally invented by the Hindu Indians*.

NOT by Chinese OR by Arab Muslims.

For Pete's sake, Wellington, the guy is a perfect nuts.

Thousands of Western composers, painters, writers, scientists, philosophers can not impress an admirer of general Ma-Fucksiang, who "practised chinese calligraphy", "knew Arabic and studied the Kuran" and in moments when not busy with these things "...killed rebel muslims and severed their ears". I wonder if he also invented Chinese water torture, or was it an achievement of some other Chinese general.

Had Maooyeryweir not been a muhammedan Chinese, or the other way round, or simply a muhammedan, there would be a chance that the Western medicine could, one day, come up with something to arrest and perhaps even reverse the "idiotization" process that muhammedanism had started in his brains. I am afraid acupuncture can not help his case.

I don't know what to say; many compliments and thanks n from the bottom of my heart to Wellington and Dumbledoresarmy!!!

In an appropriate humble and modest way I hope, I am still very proud of our Western civilization and it's history and also of it's present day nations. Which by UN standards are always leading the lists of best and nicest countries to live in, by a broad swathe of criteria and in total. Only Japan is also high on these lists.

That's why your responses did me a world of good.

Yes, I read David Landes; "The Wealth and Poverty of Nations" and I know Wellington and you are so RIGHT! But there's also so much I don't know and could not have said to this "Mao-something".

And I could not of course have said it so fine! And with so many sound arguments that DDA gave, the depth. So glad you 2 are our allies, it seems to me you bring so much extra quality to this site. And so long you are visiting we need not be afraid to lose any debate here, not even with the best of opponents.

Oh, I know, Robert could guarantee that too, but in the comments-section he can't be all the time as he is very busy and he can't fight alone there.

So many compliments and thanks, Wellington and DDA!

With you here, dda. Ignorant (and racist) people should sometimes be addressed rather than always ignored, but I've had my limit with this turkey. To point out, as he did, that the Greek alphabet was borrowed from the Phoenicians (which is true of course) and yet ignore all the wonderful originality of ancient Greek civilization after mentioning such a borrowing is indeed absurd. The guy is a hater and sees virtually no good in Western Civilization no matter how much evidence is presented him. And the evidence is massive and, for the most part, unique. After all, there is no Artistotle, no Michelangelo, no Newton and no Mozart in the Islamic world. And for good reason considering that Islam is a prescription for the closing of the mind. By his own admission, "islamic socieities [sic] does [sic] not need original thinkers..." Refreshing when a Muslim admits to the limitations of his own religion---and with pride. This Bozo is almost certainly destined to go through life with prejudices that make the ordinary person's biases look like sheer enlightenment. Done with him.

Thank you for your kind words, demsci, though I must point out that so many of your posts have made for interesting reading. Hope all is well with you and yours.

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Kathy Shaidle, Five Feet of Fury

“I read people like [Mark Steyn] and Bob Spencer and the rest of them, and I say, ‘Boortz, you’re pretending you’re an author. These people really are. They really write some entertaining, some standup stuff.’”
Neal Boortz

“Robert Spencer is the Stephen King of Jihad.”
Chris Gaubatz, Muslim Mafia

“Armed with facts and fearlessness, Spencer stands up for Western civilization.”
Michelle Malkin

“Widely read in conservative foreign policy circles.”
New York Times

“Widely read in many quarters in Washington.”
Washington Post

“A canny operative who likely has the inside track on the State Department’s Middle East affairs desk should the tea party win the White House.”
New York Magazine

“A hero of the American right.”
Karen Armstrong

"The leading anti-Islamic intellectual in the United States....The go-to Islam expert for the right wing."
Salon Magazine

“Robert Spencer is an Edward Said turned upside down.”
Stephen Suleyman Schwartz

“One of the nation's most notorious Islamophobes.”
Hamas-linked CAIR

"Geller and Spencer are probably the most important propagandizing Islamophobes in the world. These people's voices speak very loudly — not just here in the United States but overseas."
Heidi Beirach, Southern Poverty Law Center

“Satanic ignoramus.”
Khaleel Mohammed

“The Likud anti-Christ.”
Dar al-Hayat newspaper (Saudi Arabia)

“Zionist Crusader, missionary of hate, counter-Islam consultant.”
Al-Qaeda’s Adam Gadahn, “Azzam the American”



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