The mass-murderers say that this was a counterattack in the Church's alleged war against Islam. Yet notice how CNN's headline calls it an "Iraq church standoff," giving no hint that this was a gratuitous Islamic jihad attack. "Death toll rises to 58 in Iraq church standoff," by Mohammed Tawfeeq for CNN, November 1:
Baghdad, Iraq (CNN) -- The death toll from a hostage standoff at a Catholic church in Baghdad has risen to 58, police officials with the Iraqi Interior Ministry said Monday.Seventy-five others were wounded in the attack by armed gunmen Sunday, the officials said, adding that most of the casualties were women and children. Two priests were also among the dead as well as 17 security officers and five gunmen.
The hours-long standoff ended Sunday after Iraqi security forces stormed the Sayidat al-Nejat church. Eight suspects were arrested.
"All the marks point out that this incident carries the fingerprints of al Qaeda," Iraqi Defense Minister Abdul Qader Obeidi said on state television Sunday.
He said that most of the hostages were killed or wounded when the kidnappers set off explosives inside the church.
At least two of the attackers were wearing explosive vests, which they detonated just minutes before security forces raided the church, the police officials said.
The Islamic State of Iraq later claimed responsibility for the attack through a statement posted on a radical Islamic website. The umbrella group includes a number of Sunni extremist organizations and has ties to al Qaeda in Iraq.
"The Mujahedeens raided a filthy nest of the nests of polytheism, which has been long taken by the Christians of Iraq as a headquarter for a war against the religion of Islam and they were able by the grace of God and His glory to capture those were gathered in and to take full control of all its entrances," the group said on the website....
'...by the grace of God and His glory..' they were able to murder 58 innocent people.
You've got be psychologically twisted in a very special way to believe such garbage.
"Theb religion of peace" . Well, it seems to be peace off.
This is Islam, this is what happens when you actually take the life, times, and deeds of Mohammed seriously. This is what happens in any society that has a lot of people whom follow this faith (Muslims). This is the profet that Abdul Rauf will teach his followers about at the mosque in "Park 51". We can not cure the historical facts of Islam which are cursed by the behavior of its profet by invading other countries. All we can do is insulate ourselves from it by exposing it to the light of day through honest discussion, and realistic immigration policies, and supporting States which are at risk on the borders of the Islamic world, like Israel, Serbia, Republika Srpska, Greece etc.
Say what you will about Islam, but I think it's really startling how well it crosses over national boundaries. The truth is that most non-Muslims, whether they are Christian, Jewish, Hindu, or even atheists, don't really feel a solidarity with their counterparts of another race.
But time and time again on the news I see how some Muslim from Saudi Arabia is fighting along side his Muslim counterpart in Chechnya. Even if you go on YouTube and see all the "Free Kashmir/Iraq/Palestine/Chechnya" sites you will see so many comments about support from nations outside of those provinces.
Islam itself forbids nationalism under the theology that God created humanity to worship Him alone and that nationalism is the modern form of the golden calf. To a certain extent, I agree with this theology if God exists. But as someone who is at best an agnostic I am not so sure how well we as humans could do without national boundaries. But for what it's worth, I see Muslims actually attempting the feat.
I mentioned this only because I notice that here on JD the stories with the most comments usually involve American interests - but this story of a the murder of Christians in Iraq seems to have only a handful of comments. This, again, is because I think most non-Muslims are loyal to nation before faith.
you are a pathetic and ignorant bullshitter, Channe.
For your stupid statement "The truth is that most non-Muslims, whether they are Christian, Jewish, Hindu, or even atheists, don't really feel a solidarity with their counterparts of another race" you have no fucking proof or evidence to back it up, except some bs about the number of comments on this page. The reality is there is strong support among Jews and Hindus for their co religionists in trouble. Christians have been shackled by the politically correct machinery from responding in any measure. But that changing. Of course, non muslims don't adopt violent measures against minorities in their communities. That doesn't mean that they don't have solidarity with their co religionists.
Why are you getting so upset just because I have a different opinion than you? I'm simply stating that we will never see a Christian or Hindu version of Al Queda because those religions haven't broken through national boundaries the way Islam has.
Are you denying that Islam values faith about nationality? If that's the case then you are the bullshitter, and not I.
Everywhere the US sends its troops, be that Beirut, the Balkans or Iraq, a horrible catastrophe befalls Christians there. What a catastrophe our every democratically elected president, Republican or Democrat, is. And what a catastrophe our American voters, who elect those no-goods, are. A catastrophe unto themselves. Just 2 years ago, we had a chance to elect a savior, an extraordinarily capable man, completelly free of the Stockholm Syndrome and dhimmitude servitude. The one and only man capable of rescuing this country, economically, militarily and strategically, just as he rescued the New York City when everybody else gave up on it. It took the Republican primary voters only 10 days to get rid of him. With this horrible blunder, they had sharply altered the destiny of our nation for the worse. I am not sure the United States of America will ever make it out of the abyss it is in. Not likely with this American electorate who cannot recognize a savior right before them.
Ruslan Tokhchukov, EnragedSince1999.
Re: "Islam itself forbids nationalism under the theology that God created humanity to worship Him alone and that nationalism is the modern form of the golden calf."
Do you have a reference for this forbiddance? In my experience, Jews and Christians relate to God as their heavenly father, their Creator. Islam doesn't endow Allah with that type of concern for and interest in humanity -- i.e., as a father to his children. There is no relational component as there is no dialogue, only a monologue that commands worship. This very interpretation lends itself to a debasing of all of humanity, including Muslims themselves, IMO.
###
"The Koran does not describe Allah as the Father of mankind: He is throned too high for that." Enzyklopaedie des Islam I, (Leipzig, 1913), page 726.
This is an easy one to answer. We'll start with the Hadiths which are believed by most Muslims to be the Prophet Muhammed's words and sayings:
The Prophet Muhammed's opinion of nationalism:
"He is not one us who calls for Asabiyyah, (nationalism/tribalism) or who fights for Asabiyyah or who dies for Asabiyyah."
"Leave it, it is rotten." [Muslim and Bukhari] and in the Hadith recorded in Mishkat al-Masabith.
"Undoubtedly Allah has removed from you the pride of arrogance of the age of Jahilliyah (ignorance) and the glorification of ancestors. Now people are of two kinds. Either believers who are aware or transgressors who do wrong. You are all the children of Adam and Adam was made of clay. People should give up their pride in nations because that is a coal from the coals of Hell-fire. If they do not give this up Allah (swt) will consider them lower than the lowly worm which pushes itself through Khara (dung)." [Abu Dawud and Tirmidhi]
"An Arab is no better than a non-Arab. In return, a non-Arab is no better than an Arab. A red raced man was not better than a black one except in piety. Mankind are all Adam's children and Adam was created out of clay." [Al-Bukhari and Muslim, on the authority of Abu Musa]
The Quran itself strictly demands Submission to God before anything else - which obviously includes nationalism:
“O people! be careful of (your duty to) your Lord, Who created you from a single being and created its mate of the same' kind, and spread from these two many men and women.”(4:1)
“O you men! Surely We have created you of a male and a female and made you tribes and families that you may know each other; surely the most honorable of you with God is the one among you most careful of his duty.” (49:13)
Again, I'm not arguing for Islam. I'm simply saying that if God exists, then there is no way God would approve of something like nationalism.
Channe, if you were interested and active in a good, Bible-believing, preaching church, you would know that people that love the Lord Jesus are very aware of suffering people throughout the world, and constantly act on their behalf.
Not only prayers are offered that the God of all help will undertake to protect and strengthen the brethren, but our gifts of money go overseas to many congregations so that we can help churches to minister to their members and nonmembers, both spiritually and physically. Clothing, food, education, health services, all these are purchased by or sent by Christians in the west and given to others.
We also give liberally to organizations such as the Red Cross, and other groups that help people all over the world regardless of their faith.
I doubt very much that the number of comments for a particular thread means that people don't care. I mean, what can you say in the face of this kind of brutality? It is so sickening that often I whisper a prayer and count my blessings. And then I act by supporting the outreaches aforementioned.
May the true and living God help everyone that suffers from the satanic force that is Mohammedism.
Get lost, pathetic blithering Sharia-loving idiot, and take off to Pakistan. Terrorist-loving Islamo-buttlicking creeps like you aren't wanted here in the West.
don't try to weasel away from your initial argument, asswipe.
You said : "The truth is that most non-Muslims, whether they are Christian, Jewish, Hindu, or even atheists, don't really feel a solidarity with their counterparts of another race"
and the only thing you have said to back this up is that we don't have a "Christian or Hindu version of Al Queda ". Are you saying that terrorism is the only way for expressing solidarity for others? That is a pathetic and stupid argument.
You said : "The truth is that most non-Muslims, whether they are Christian, Jewish, Hindu, or even atheists, don't really feel a solidarity with their counterparts of another race"
and the only thing you have said to back this up is that we don't have a "Christian or Hindu version of Al Queda ". Are you saying that terrorism is the only way for expressing solidarity for others? That is a pathetic and stupid argument.
Plus you ignore that Islam is a system of control and manipulation with political power as its primarily end. Christianity, Hinduism etc are religions based on teachings aimed at spiritual upliftment. Therefore, nationalist feelings does not conflict with Christian/Hindu faith. You can be a strong Hindu and a nationalist.
"Again, I'm not arguing for Islam. I'm simply saying that if God exists, then there is no way God would approve of something like nationalism."
But y'are, Channe.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6C7Wfu9N7OE
###
So...
Do you think God would disapprove of the Ummah? The universal caliphate? Or does that type of "nation-building" (aka subjugation of the planet to Islam) get a pass?
Do you really believe God would deliberately CREATE a world where everyone had to FORCE themselves to be the same? That would be like a master painter using only one color (for background and subject) for every single creation. How monotonous. How pointless -- for Creator and created!
On another thread, I found myself arguing religion until it dawned on me that we here in America (and other democracies -- e.g., Israel) should simply be thankful we live in a country where we can create a religion around our own big toe, *IF* we want to. And in a democracy, just because you tell me your big toe is God, don't expect me to believe you.
So muslims have lots of solidarity with their counterparts of another race? Come on. We've all seen lots of examples of how Arab muslims are contemptuous of muslims of other races, particularly blacks. Look at the atrocities of the Janjaweed against the black muslims. And then there's the Sunni vs. Shi'ite suicide bombings, blowing up each other's mosques..
Here we have a story of Jihadists attacking and killing Christians in the name of Allah, then the main fault here that need to be criticized is us, for not showing more solidarity? Oh my..
By your way of thinking, would you find Christians more admirable then, if they banded together with lots of solidarity, and started slaughtering muslims in the name of Christianity ?
"But time and time again on the news I see how some Muslim from Saudi Arabia is fighting along side his Muslim counterpart in Chechnya."
Of course, Channe, when it comes to making war and killing people, they are all more than ready and willing !
But, then, why is it that when it comes to Muslims needing help, they're not there !? Why, as in the situation in Pakistan, are WE, infidels, called upon to send money and stuff to those "poor" people... who then take the charities and refuse it to other religious minorities ?
Channe
Maybe you should stop by Voice of the Martyrs (VOM) and learn how Christians are, to quote Paul, bound with our suffering and captive brothers and sisters. Jesus told us to to carry His word to all nations. In doing that we have become one; not Jew, Greek, woman, man, or slave any more.
The fact that you are not acquainted with this does not negate its existence. What you seem to be most acqainted with is honor among thieves.
What about Tom Tancredo, I liked him more than Rudy Julianni. Tom got my vote :-).
From the article:
"a filthy nest of the nests of polytheism".
To wit: the Iraqi Catholic church of Our Lady of Salvation.
The Muslims marched in and shot the unarmed and defenceless priest, point blank: they also mass-murdered elderly folk, women and children.
And then they strut, crow and swagger, and boast about their great 'victory'?
PUKE. SPIT. What evil, evil people.
Keep copies of this article. Give them to any naive Christian priests you know, who are getting suckered by Muslim interfaith snake-oil salesmen.
Tell them - that *that* - 'a filthy nest of the nests of polytheism' - is most likely what most pious, thoroughly-indoctrinated Muslims think, *whenever* they see a Christian church.
And here is something more that might be shared.
Here is Samuel Zwemer (d.1952), who studied and evangelised and lived and travelled through most parts of dar al Islam in the late 19th and early 20th century, telling us what Muslims are taught to think about Christians.
Zwemer wrote the following in 1920 (in the journal which he edited, "Moslem World," Vol. 10, pp. 154-155):
“Its [Islam's] intolerance and persecuting spirit have been revealed within the past few years, the blood of a million {Armenian Christian} martyrs testifying to the failure of Islam, its absolute failure to understand the words that open every chapter save one of their Sacred Volume: ‘God the Merciful and Compassionate’.
"A few years ago one of the leading Moslems of Baghdad wrote an article for a French journal, entitled 'The Final Word of Islam to Europe' :
‘For us [i.e. Muslims - dda] in the world there are only believers and unbelievers;
'love, charity, fraternity toward believers;
'contempt, disgust, hatred, and war against unbelievers.
‘Amongst the unbelievers the most hateful and criminal are those who, while recognizing God, attribute to Him earthly relationship, give Him a son, a mother...
‘Learn then, European observers, that a Christian of no matter what position, from the simple fact he is a Christian is in our eyes a blind man fallen from all human dignity." END QUOTE FROM ZWEMER.
I understand that this 'leading Muslim of Baghdad' was in fact an influential member of the Ottoman Committee of Union and Progress, Sheik Abd-ul-Hack, a “progressive” Young Turk, and the journal was Le Mecherouttiete, edited by Sherif Pasha, Paris; the article appeared in August 1912.
It was noticed, and cited independently of Zwemer, by Andre Servier, in his 'Islam and the Psychology of the Musulman'.
Here is the portion excerpted by Servier:
"Yes! The Musulman religion is in open hostility to all your world of progress.
"Understand, you European observers, that a Christian, whatever his position may be, by the mere fact of his being a Christian is regarded by us as a blind man lost to all sense of human dignity.
"Our reasoning with regard to him is as simple as it is definitive.
"We say: the man whose judgment is so perverted as to deny the existence of a one and only God, and to make up gods of different sorts, can only be the meanest expression of human degradation; to speak to him would be a humiliation for our intelligence and an insult to the grandeur of the Master of the Universe.
"The presence of such miscreants among us is the bane of our existence; their doctrine is a direct insult to the purity of our faith; contact with them is a defilement of our bodies; any relation with them a torture to our souls."
Here in Australia, it is already the Feast of All Souls, 2nd November, which in some places is also known as The Day of the Dead: a good day on which to remember and mourn the Tears of Jihad, all those non-Muslims - Jews, Christians, Hindus, Sikhs, Zoroastrians, Buddhists, animists, of every non-Islamic faith or of no faith - who have been enslaved, raped, and/ or mass-murdered, in the millions upon millions, by Muslims.
But the first of November is/ was the Feast of All Saints.
So, for all the saints, confessors and martyrs of the church in Iraq, and in particular these my beloved brothers and sisters of the church of Our Lady of Salvation in Baghdad, so recently murdered by Muslim jihadist assassins, I will light, metaphorically speaking, a pair of candles.
Here is one. The prayer of dismissal of the dying, Proficiscere, 'Go forth', as set by Sir Edward Elgar in his oratorio The Dream of Gerontion, a setting of the poem by Cardinal Newman (now beatified). The first clip takes you as far as the invocation of the Holy Spirit; the second takes you through the whole text.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVX-36SEsc4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hghskHrzl3M&NR=1
"Proficiscere, anima Christiana, de hoc mundo!
'Go forth upon thy journey, Christian soul!
'Go from this world!
Go, in the Name of God
The Omnipotent Father,
who created thee!
'Go, in the Name of Jesus Christ, our Lord,
Son of the living God,
who bled for thee!
'Go, in the Name of the Holy Spirit,
who hath been pour'd out on thee!
'Go...
in the name
Of Angels and Archangels; in the name
Of Thrones and Dominations; in the name
Of Princedoms and of Powers; and in the name
Of Cherubim and Seraphim,
go forth!
'Go,
in the name of Patriarchs and Prophets;
And of Apostles and Evangelists,
Of Martyrs and Confessors;
in the name
Of holy Monks and Hermits;
in the name
Of Holy Virgins; and all Saints of God,
Both men and women, go!
'Go on thy course;
And may thy place today be found in peace,
And may thy dwelling be the Holy Mount
Of Sion:
—through the Same, through Christ, our
Lord."
And here is the other: from Gabriel Faure's Requiem, the 'In Paradisum.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82L8AaqA-Dc
Made By Islam.
The bits and pieces quoted by Channe are all pointing in one direction: that Muhammad only accepted the leading role of himself and his hand puppet. Of course, the pre-Islamic tribal systems are doing very fine to this day, as long as they identify themselves as Islamic.
As someone who has left my former parish because they sold their school to the Fethullah Gulen Movement (Google that!!!), I think these "misunderstanders" have their premise backwards. God rest the souls of those who died.
I say about islam that a broken clock is right twice a day. Islam is broken and has no place in this world.
Well, I am in favor of the principles and laws of Enlightenment and Democracy. And I think we should look and think universal before national, too.
And I believe you well, Channe, that Muslims put loyalty to faith and worldwide Ummah over nation. And thus also very often Theocracy-dictatorship over Democratic rules, laws, values, even in Democratic nations, treasonably and seditiously so. Because theocracy is what the most important Islamic guiding texts really promote, according to common sense and by far the most of the experts, both Islamic and Critical.
And Muslims should openly admit it, instead of maintaining their deceitful or ignorant innocence-pleading against the Democratic system that they want either to overthrow or resist worldwide.
So that ignorant, naive Citizens of Democratic nations, who try to defend the "victimized" Muslims no longer can portray them as harmless, without even ill-will towards the most cherished laws and rights of these same citizens of Democracies.
At best I think Moderate Muslims in Democratic nations are very confused and inconsistent. At worst that they are very hypocrite and deceitful, with a secret Theocratic agenda, however long-term.
But when we look at a global scale, like you, Channe, say (many or most) Muslims do, then the Christians, Hindus and followers of all other faiths, many of them united under Democracy, should do the same.
And demand reciprocity, In treatment, in allowance to build houses of worship, in equal rights and freedom of religion and apostasy, because of the glaring difference in treatment of the minority by the majority between Islamic and Democratic nations, which is known to almost all knowledgeable mankind.
Muslims are no in a global view, sooooo hypocritical, egoistical or religio-centric, that they see no evil in being part of a global Ummah that oppresses the followers of other faiths most unjustly in their own territory, while at the same time the followers of Islam get total equal treatment in the lands of these other-faith-followers (including of course non-faith-followers).
And anyone who thinks universal should see at once how unjust and untenable such a hypocritical global attitude is. Muslims who truly look universal should be disgusted as much as true democracy-adherents are because of this. But somehow most Muslims are shameless, honourless. Or otherwise many of them just are ignorant of their own religion or very confused and inconsistent about it. Or yet plain religio-centric.
And stubbornly stupidly ignoring or resisting the perfectly reasonable and just reproaches by a big part of mankind against Islamic theory and practice, they fully deserve the highest degree of scorn and ridicule, especially of their founder.
Which scorn in the end will force them to react and finally to think. If not this generation, then the next, or the next. With ever higher, bigger, better informed protest against and exposure of Islam. Yes that scorn should and will grow a lot.
Together with the holding accountable of Muslims for their choice of religion. Which is not supposed to be an accident of birth or a token of love for mum, dad and community, but a deep, hard, honest search for the highest truth anyway.