Diwali greetings!

I wish all Hindu, Sikh, and Jain Jihad Watchers and their families a happy and prosperous Diwali. India is one of the front-line states in the global jihad war, and all free people need to stand with her in defense of the civilizations we have built and the understandings of human rights that we have formulated, which are essentially universal outside the realm of Sharia.

Happy Diwali!

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Comments

  1. says

    For those many here, especially those from Western countries, who may not know very much about Diwali, or Deepavali, the wikipedia summary seems to me to be as useful as any, to gain a basic overview of how it is celebrated and what it signifies.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diwali

    “The name Diwali is itself a contraction of the word “Deepavali” (Sanskrit: दीपावली DÄ«pÄ�vali), which translates into row of lamps. Diwali involves the lighting of small clay lamps (diyas) (or Deep in Sanskrit: दीप) filled with oil to signify the triumph of good over evil.”

    I am a Christian; nevertheless I will wish the Indian members of this forum a joyful Diwali.

    May the jihad that rages both within and against India be faced and defeated. May India be blessed with life and light.

  2. says

    Happy Diwali to all.

    Robert Spencer : Sir Diwali is the festival of Hindus,Shikhs ,Jains so if you add Shikhs and Jains it would be great.

  3. says

    I have to ask-

    why were the Hindus so good at resisting Islam (even after centuries of occupation and dhimmitude) while Christians and Buddhists and Animists and Pagans almost completely fell under Islam’s domination? (with Jews simply becoming dhimmis)

  4. says

    And a very Happy and Prosperous Diwali to you Mr. Spencer and your wonderful team.

    Deepvali or Diwali, the festival of lights, is celebrated as the triumph of good over evil when Lord Rama returned to Ayodhya victorious after defeating the demon-king Ravana. The people of the city of Ayodhya all light up Deepas/Dias or little “oil candles” throughout the city to welcome their beloved Prince.

    Interesting that the very city of Ayodhya is the battleground between Hindus and Muslims to this day and “Jai Sri Rama” (Glory to Lord Rama) has become a battlecry for Hindus against Jihad and the Islamic occupation of India. It is also the place where the Hindus tore down the mosque that desecrated and stood upon the sacred birthplace of Lord Rama.

    Diwali is celebrated by Hindus, Sikhs, Jains, Buddhists and even our Christian brothers and sisters in India.

    @Bob Gill, I have no idea why you would say such a thing. No doubt the Hindus and Sikhs fought against Islam and stopped it in its tracks from converting the entire subcontinent, but the Christians and Buddhist also equally fought valiantly to defend their lands otherwise Islam would have won a long time ago.

    Evil shall never win, terror never wins wars, there is one God and He shall always triumph, too bad the muslims haven’t learned this truth.

    -Ayo Gorkhali

  5. says

    Thank you very much Mr. Spencer. Happy Diwali to you too
    and the JW team. Sincere thanks to everyone at JW, Robert Spencer & Hugh Fitzgerald in particular for their intelligent, insightful, informative and scholarly website.
    Hope your effort is fruitful in educating people, so that the ideology of Jihadi supremacism is defeated once and for all.

  6. says

    Here’s a brief and beautiful scene from Peter Brooks’ film version of the Mahabharata, the great Hindu epic that is about ten times longer than the Iliad plus the Odyssey.

    The Lake Questions Yudhisthira

    A Christian can stay Christian and at the same time fall in love with the mysterious cosmic poetry of ancient Hindu literature.

  7. says

    Thanks a lot Mr.Spencer and all the others here for the diwali greetings .To all the staff at Jihad Watch … thanks for the work you do .

  8. says

    Bless all those entwined on this forum & Bob Spencer for keeping us informed.

    May God Watch over all those who believe in him.

    Happy Diwali to all of India & members of their families far from home. I shall light a candle as well. I will stand by India as I do Israel.

    Most Sincerely,
    Jean

  9. says

    To Hindus everywhere, and the Sikhs, and the Jains. It has been predicted that the 21st century will be the century of the Chinese, of the Confucians and Buddhists in the Heavenly Kingdom.

    *** 33:21 ***

    My vote is for the Hindus. But the good Lord Rama better hurry it up, the Moslems are coming, they’re always on their way with their stupid evil Cause.

    Speaking of Moslems, let me apologize in advance for our Prez Barack Hussein even stepping on the Subcontinent’s soil. I think I’ll surf over to voi.org and read. There are some sad tales told over there, of necessity, but there is also strength there, much as here.

  10. says

    Robert (et al), many thanks for your kind greetings.

    My heartfelt wishes for peace, happiness and prosperity to all at JihadWatch and beyond.

    This message is for all that is good in the world, so please forgive me if I do not bring “you know what” into the matter.

    May the light of Diwali illuminate the darkest recesses of our conscience and help bring knowledge and truth to the fore.

    Satyameva Jayate

  11. says

    Happy Diwali!

    It’s also an occasion for a a New Year (A Hindu New Year).

    God Bless to all the JihadWatch readers (except to all the trolls) out there!

  12. says

    Happy Diwali, indeed.

    Hinduism is a bulwark against Islam and a prime target for Islam.

    re Bob Gill’s comment, I don’t think Hindus were particularly good at resisting Islam. Most of India fell under the sway of Islam.

    Remember that it took many centuries of oppression against non-Muslims for Islam to become the majority religion across the Middle East. The Islamisation of India started much later and was then interrupted by Western colonialism.

    Also, there was a complete cultural chasm between Islam and Hinduism, whereas Islam had at least some purchase on the thought processes of Christians and Jews.

  13. says

    Re:
    “Bob Gill | November 4, 2010 10:59 PM | Reply

    I have to ask-

    why were the Hindus so good at resisting Islam (even after centuries of occupation and dhimmitude) while Christians and Buddhists and Animists and Pagans almost completely fell under Islam’s domination? (with Jews simply becoming dhimmis”

    First: Thank you Robert and all others for Diwali greetings.

    Second: The answer to your question:

    A few reasons come to mind:

    We took our civilization underground – hiding it from muslims.

    We took enormous pride in our own philosophy and rejected islam as paltry and barbaric.

    We lived under jaziya, but being entrepreneural, flourished in trade, hid our wealth and cheated on taxes.

    We declared them ‘mallecch’ – worse status in cast system than our own lowly Shudras. This meant that there would total derision and rejection of islam. These people will be completely isolated from Hindus as far as possible. We would not even let them cross the street in front of us. They would not be placated or compromised with in any way.

    We made sure we had lots of children.

    We made sure that our children married within the culture. If they married a muslims, they were out!

    Now, I agree that many of these measures were drastic even by the standards of the time. But living with muslims is never ‘normal’ times. It is war all the time. I have not declared it. They have. Centuries ago. They still do in every mosque every Friday, as Jihad.

    I believe that the West is committing suicide by accommodating any of these people by even an inch; including the so called ‘moderate’ ones.

    It is sad. Very, very sad.

    Remember, Hindus barely survived the onslaught. The destruction by islam was enormous with almost 300 million killed over the years.

  14. says

    Best Diwali greetings from me as well, by now I know so many brave Indians who fight against Islamic barbarism and who enlightened me about the atrocities committed by Mohammedans in India. Happy holiday and it’s great to get together. I love to learn about other cultures.

  15. says

    Happy Diwali to Robert Spencer and his team as well as all Jihadwatch readers.

    @Bob Gill: Hinduism has taken serious hits (we have lost pakistan, bangladesh and kashmir). However it is still alive and strong and I like to think it has something to do with the strength of its philosophy and spiritual practices. There are also the reasons that Mulakush states.

  16. says

    Hindus are burning churches and Bibles and killing Christians in Orissa Province, are they? They’re just so “peace-loving.” Nothing at all like Muslims.

  17. says

    HAPPY DEEPAWALI To all .

    Thank you very much Mr. Spencer. Happy Diwali to you too
    and the JW team. Sincere thanks to everyone at JW, Robert Spencer & Hugh Fitzgerald in particular for their intelligent, insightful, informative and scholarly website

    We pray for grant of sanity & Sat-Budhi(sat=satya=truth/good;budhi=intelect) to all.

  18. says

    Thank you Mr.Spencer and everyone on this forum. I too wish you all a happy Diwali and may the “light” of truth and celebration be with us all.

    I am not a big fan of Obama, but he’s our guest of honour this Diwali and we shall treat him well and shower him with our best wishes and affection. In Hindu culture we have a saying “Athithi Devo Bhava” Translated, this means “A guest in our home is God himself”

    Some corrections/addition to various posts on this:

    1. Number of Hindus killed by muslims is not 300 million but around 80 million. (Not suggesting in anyway that number is small, just registering facts)

    2. Hindus do not burn churches or bibles or any religious books. That point about Orissa made here by someone has been proved to be wrong on investigation and it was the handiwork of anti-Hindu communists themselves.

    3. As for how Hindus could withstand such a huge onslaught on muslims – India had received refugees from everywhere, Jews, Persians, Syrian christians and many more. All of these groups along with the Hindus withstood the muslims. And much later the British were equally important in ending the muslim rule.

    Mahaatma Gandhi once said: “The world has been visited by many tyrants but none of them lasted. Sometimes it appeared the tyrants were winning but in the end they lost”

    Diwali is the celebration of good over evil, the triumph of truth over everything. It is the Hindu belief that Islamists must give up their intentions of imposing their beliefs on everyone else. They should join humankind if peaceful pursuit of truth, happiness and freedom.

  19. says

    Ccoppenberger speaks the truth. Hindus are murdering Christians and destroying churches. The message of Christianity is unresistible to the downtrodden and marginalised. Hinduism has more demerits than merits. The best that can be said for our relationship is this: the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

  20. says

    Happy Diwali to our Hindu friends!
    We share so much with you – including the enemy. May we both prevail over it.

    God Bless India!

  21. says

    So because of an indiscriminate, insufficiently discerning and targeted animosity to, it seems, most all things Islamic, unqualified, effusive, well-wishing praise will be showered upon a quasi-pagan religion with a normative caste system which is presently replete with inter-caste honor killings, and whose most militant elements are harassing and attacking any number of Christians and Hindu-converts-to-Christianity as a key partner in an incoherent, insufficiently moral, bankrupt Western secular supremacy project.

    Good luck, indeed, with that one.

    This is just more confirmation of the anti-intellectual tendencies that can be found in secular Western liberalism and how any such person’s Christianity is a mere flimsy patina when grafted onto such nonsense.

    Jihad Watch more and more seems to resemble Maslow’s Hammer theory, as when JW folks finally get hold of a hammer, the only thing they can see anymore is a world filled with nails.

    Finally, let’s see what interesting things we can glean from a July 2010 New York Times article:

    “When her father learned of the engagement, he wrote his daughter a letter and paid a surprise visit to New Delhi.

    In the letter, the father acknowledged that such marriages were allowed under India’s Constitution, but argued that the Constitution had existed for only decades while Hindu religious beliefs dated back thousands of years.

    At one point, Ms. Pathak’s mother called, crying, asking if they had wronged her in a past life.

    The death of Ms. Pathak remains under investigation. Her body was discovered in her upstairs bedroom on the morning of April 29, while her mother was the only person at home. Initially, neighbors and family members said she had died from electrocution, but then later changed their story to say she had hanged herself. The police arrested the mother after the postmortem report concluded that Ms. Pathak had been suffocated.”

    Let freedom ring.

  22. says

    Happy everything, everyday, to Hindus, Jains, Sikhs…The enlightened in the early days of India, gave the world numerous gifts…Some were spiritual and philosophical revelations, and some were things to do…The purpose of the spiritual explanations is to give a foundation of understanding, so you know what you are doing, while you are doing it…The purpose of this doing, is this…Mental discipline, aimed at training the consciousness for a state of perfect spiritual insight and tranquility…From this come the gifts of the various yogas…
    the flowers of wisdom…sometimes called Yana…
    So Happy Diwali and happy Yana for those who practice it…

  23. says

    From post above…Jihad Watch more and more seems to resemble Maslow’s Hammer theory, as when JW folks finally get hold of a hammer, the only thing they can see anymore is a world filled with nails.

    True, because the world really is full of nails, there are billions of them…If you can’t see these nails, you are blinded to them…The carpenter does not just pound nails, he removes them with the claw side of the hammer…The wood is rotten and needs to be replaced…JW deals with a lot of rotten wood…sometimes crow bars are required…The vile, and rotten structure of Islam, is dismantled piece by rotten piece, and replaced with the new wood of truth and freedom, and liberty…
    Maslow would be proud…

  24. says

    Thank you Roberts for remembering Hindus and mentioning them for their thousands of years’ fight with the Jihadists ! It is unfortunate that when the westerners discuss about inter-religious matters in the media they cover only three religions , i.e. Christianity , Islam and Judaism. Our 3500 ( if not 5000 ! ) years old Hindu religion , followed by 2 billion people of India , is never mentioned. This is aa sad commentary on the lesser knowledge of westeners about the religions around the world. Hinduism is one ancient religion with its associated culture that has been the most liberal one allowing its followers to start new religions like Sikhism , Jainism and Buddhism without waging any kind of illwill towards the followers of the new religious offshoots of Hinduism ! It never raised a bogey of “Jihad” agaisnt the newcomers. On the other hand it allowed those new religions to stay within India along side it during the last hundreds of years. Hindus never had legionnaires ( crusaders) and the crusades to kill other religious believers. Add to this the entry into India of the Parsees ( foolowers of Zorastrian religion ) from Muslim Iran who were persecuted my the Iranian Muslims and left Iran to take refuge in Hindu India ! The famous Indian industrialist Mr.Ratan Tata of the multi-billion dollar industrial empire of TATA’s in India today is a Parsee !
    In fact , Robert , the thousands of years’ peaceful history of India was disfigured by the ruthless Turkish , Afghan , Mangolian and Persian ( now Iranian ) Islamic marauders for almost a thousand years through their invasion and loot of India ! They ransacked Indian villages , destroyed Indian temples and magnificent temple architecture of India one of which was the golden temple of Somnath ! Of course India was looted of its gold and diamonds by the British , French , Dutch and Portugese later on. Of these Christian countries only the Portugese were fanatic ( almost like the Muslim Jihadists ) Christians who were like the Spanish conquistedaros in South Americas in forcibly converting the peaceful fishermen of Goa to Catholism ! Why were Indians subjugated under the violent Muslims and Christians so easily and for so long ? Because its peace-loving population never knew that there existed on the face of the earth and so never trained its people for ferocious religious wars ! So they became “lame ducks” for the barbaric Muslim religious invaders and the swordsmen ( and later the gunners ) of Christian traders who both ransacked India between 1450 AD and 1947 AD !

  25. says

    Ravi Narayan,

    I certainly don’t seek to make generalized comments about all Hindus, but as reported by the sources I see among Western Christians, attacks are more numerous than just stray incidents. And, with all due respect, I tend to doubt that Abhinav Bharat, Rashtriya Jagran Manch, Sri Ram Sena, Hindu Dharam Sena, and Sanatan Sanstha are all fronts for communists.

    The following can be found on Voice of the Martyrs website:

    “The brutality against Orissa Christians spawned by Hindu fundamentalists was unflinchingly complete. Homes were burned. Churches were destroyed. People were killed. The entire Digal family fled their small village in the Kandhalmal district to the slums of the state’s capital. All eight members were forced to live in a one-room, wooden shack.

    On Sept. 20, 2008, Pastor Digal left his family in the makeshift shelter they had carved out for themselves. Over their objections he went to their home village to check on their house and livestock.

    Pastor Digal was traveling on a local bus to his destroyed home when it was stopped by 18 Hindu radicals. What happened next was a horror unimaginable.

    The radicals dragged Pastor Digal off the crowded, dusty bus. They ignored the sickening crunch of bone as both his legs broke. They proceeded to torture him, demanding that he return to Hinduism.

    ‘I am a strong believer in Jesus Christ,” Pastor Digal said. “You may kill me but I will never become Hindu.’

    The 18 men began to beat Pastor Digal. They tied his hands and legs. Witnesses watched as they stripped him of his clothes leaving nothing but a shirt. They burned his face and tortured him in unspeakable ways. Then they dumped this limp body in a creek where it floated for days.”

    All Hindus should not be blamed, and the Hindu faith itself should not necessarily be blamed.

    Examining a set of believers’ behavior in juxtaposition to a religion’s content should be done in the most careful, thoughtful, and discerning manner possible. That does not seem to be sufficiently observed on this site. It should be observed for all religions.

    I will observe this for Hinduism. Let’s see everyone else observe it for Islam.

  26. says

    Sounds like a good day to have Indian buffet for lunch. And if my wife doesn’t take me I will banish her to a separate bed, beat her (careful not to leave any marks) and pronounce talaq on her three times. Oooops, wrong religion maybe…

  27. says

    Thank you Robert, for remembering this lights-festival of India.
    May the lamp of truth extinguish the darkness of ignorance.
    Diwali signifies the victory of good over evil.

    Thank you to all the JW posters who expressed their good wishes.

  28. says

    I will observe this for Hinduism. Let’s see everyone else observe it for Islam.

    Observe all you want…All religions have a few fanatics that occasionally do outrageous things…They are always acting outside their religion, and local law, no matter what they call themselves…Anyone who wants to kill you in the name of their god, is a very deranged person(s)…Of all the ‘religions’ Islam is the most deranged because of it’s constant call for death of someone for something, and then carrying it out whenever they can…Death is Islams way…We have all seen that in action…
    There is simply nothing about Islam to defend…But there is plenty there to defend against…

  29. says

    “The topic here today was to celebrate Diwali, a Hindu festival. You and some others have chosen to vent your spleen against Hindus instead. How do you justify that?”

    Ravi this is always seen in all blogs – Muslims just can’t stand any good wishes towards anybody else!!! It results from their religious upbringing from the age of six or seven – hating everything that is non-Islamic.

  30. says

    Happy Deepawali to Mr.Robert Spencer, all JW staff and Jihadwatchers. Deepawali is derived from the word “Deepa” which means lamp which sympolises light. Thus, it is “festival of lights”.

    The Vedic prayer says:
    “O Lord, lead me from untruth to truth,
    Lead me from darkness to light”
    Deepawali symbolises this very noble aspiration of humankind from times immemorial. Leading humanity from untruth(Islam) to truth(democracy, freedom and peace) and darkness(iSLAM) to light is also the aim of Robert Spencer and JW.

    May humanity achieve its aim of leading muslims from darkness to light!!!!!.

  31. says

    Ravi Narayan,

    To clarify, I am not a Muslim. It is disappointing that it sounds like, if I’ve understood you correctly, you do not seem disposed to approach the study and evaluation of Islam and Muslims with the same care and thoughtfulness that I would intend to accord to Hinduism and its adherents or most any other religion.

    The purpose of my initial post was not to cast apersions on Diwali itself, but to take note, in a rather blunt manner, the lack of sufficient propriety by which Islam as a whole is treat here in comparison to all other religions, and the problematic features that can be found in religions other than Islam.

    My regrets to the extent that you or any Hindu took offense.

  32. says

    The complete prayer is –

    “asato ma sadgamaya
    tamaso ma jyotirgamaya
    mrtyorma amrtam gamaya”

    “Lead me from untruth to truth
    lead me from darkness to light
    lead me from death to immortality’

    Happy Diwali &/or Best Wishes to everyone !!

  33. says

    Janaki,

    While you are right that I do not know much of anything about the history of Orissa, I do know that, regardless of that history, what is being reported from their in recent years is wrong and inexcusable.

    The wrongdoing of the past does not justify any wrongdoing today.

  34. says

    Ravi Narayan: What I can tell you is that contemporary mainstream orthodox Islam’s jurists and theologians hold that no non-Muslim land can be attacked or subject to any step of their jihad warfare theology based solely on their being non-Muslim. Zakir Naik in Mumbai holds to this view as well.

    Nishant: Please note that my USA incompatibilities were listed for multiple religions, not just Hinduism. And, yes, in the context of Jihad Watch clamoring about US constitutionalism, making a review of various religions’ theological stances in light of it is appropriate, regardless of which religions seek to introduce or not introduce various ideas into American law and/or culture.

    I have never said every Christian is great or every Hindu is evil and have never believed that. And I don’t defend Christian wrongdoing.

    But if Christians are to mind their own business, as you put it, there I will have to say that we have absolutely no intention of doing so.

    Again, my regrets where offense was taken with my initial post.

  35. says

    Fairuzfan, only a miserable Muslim could troll on a goodwill thread wishing Hindus, Sikhs and Jains a Happy Diwali.

    Your arguments regarding Hinduism are utterly specious and mendacious. In the USA and Europe there are no Hindus seeking to accord outdated Hindu precepts the status that mainstream Muslims (and not just extremists) are seeking to accord sharia in the West. In other words, Hindus reform and discard those parts of their ancient tradition that are not compatible with modernity, and carry on practising their religion in peace and harmony with others, whereas Muslims, being defined by their arrogant and silly imperial, supremacist demands, seek to polish the turd called sharia and call it the most precious gem.

  36. says

    Wishing a very Happy Diwali to Mr. Spencer and his wonderful team.

    May this Diwali bring happiness and good life to all. God bless us all…..

    Keep up the good work Mr. Spencer, we stand with you.

  37. says

    i am following jihad watch from quite a time.Didn’t expect Mr Robert is familiar with indian culture.As quite few westerners know about diwali

    anyways i am quite delighted with the humbleness of Mr Robert.Thank you for wishing all of us like minded people on their festival occassion.May you and us all be succeeed in quenching the menace of jihad against us all :)

  38. says

    I like the diwali, no one gets hurt.
    Happy Diwali from England to all hindus all over the world, especially those in my country who show how it is possible for different cultures to live together with mutual respect.

  39. says

    To those who say Hindus are attacking Christians in India out of hatred here are a few videos on some of the things missionaries do ….

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tlLBExMuRM and

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dv1FYw5mrh0&feature=related and

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STNf6XYp9e4&feature=related

    Age old communities have been destroyed,families broken up in the name of “saving people” . Then there is the fact that some people get paid for converting people . Tribals who are uneducated and know almost nothing of the outside world are told that people who don’t accept Jesus are demon possessed etc etc .
    I studied in a Jesuit school for 13 years and have nothing but the utmost respect and love for the priests who ran that school (esp the American ones).This is not about hating Christians (my mom is one).But to use bribes overt and otherwise to get people to abandon their age old customs and beliefs is cheap .The message and the messenger both are important .
    I am not defending those people who attack Christians but everything is not as black and white as Pokermutt and Ccoppenbarger seem to think .

  40. says

    There does exist a real and rampant problem of Christian proselytizing in India, which is a cultural invasion against India, aimed at destroying India’s Hinduism-based indigenous culture.

    Francois Gautier, a believing Catholic, wrote the following a few years ago:
    ~~
    WILL HINDUISM SURVIVE THE PRESENT CHRISTIAN OFFENSIVE?
    By Francois Gautier
    2001

    Last month, during the bishop’s conference in Bangalore, it was restated by bishops and priests from all over India that conversion is the FIRST priority of the Church here. But are the priests and bishops aware that they would never find in any Western country the same freedom to convert that they take for granted in India? Do they know that in China they would be expelled, if not put into jail? Do they realize that they have been honoured guests in this country for nearly two thousand years and that they are betraying those that gave them peace and freedom?

    Hinduism, the religion of tolerance, and spirituality of this new millennium, has survived the unspeakable barbarism of wave after wave of Muslim invasions, the insidious onslaught of Western colonialism which has killed the spirit of so many Third World countries, and the soul-stifling assault of Nehruvianism. But will it survive the present Christian offensive?

    Many Hindu religious leaders feel Christianity is a real threat today, as in numerous ways it is similar to Hinduism, from which Christ borrowed so many concepts. (See Sri Sri Ravi Shankar’s book: “Hinduism and Christianity”)

    It is thus necessary that Indians themselves become more aware of the danger their culture and unique civilization is facing at the hands of missionaries sponsored by foreign money. It is also necessary that they stop listening to the Marxist-influenced English newspapers’ defense of the right of Christian missionaries to convert innocent Hindus.

    Conversion belongs to the times of colonialism. We have entered the era of Unity, of coming together, of tolerance and accepting each other as we are, not of converting in the name of one elusive “true” god.

    When Christianity accepts the right of other people to follow their own beliefs and creeds, then only will Jesus Christ’s spirit truly radiate in the world.
    ~~

    Here is a report on the conversions activity in Orissa (which led to the unrest there) by an American author:
    ~~
    ORISSA in the CROSSFIRE
    Kandhamal Burning
    Brannon Parker
    July 6, 2009

    “Orissa in the Crossfire’ reveals that this same war against the native people and ancient traditions never ended. India is currently the prime battle ground in this struggle. The good people of the world, who are troubled by the genocidal legacy of the past, need to recognize that this brutality continues to this very day in India. From his place of sanctuary in Dharmshala, India the Dalai Lama recently spoke of the” Cultural Genocide’ of the Tibetan people and way of life. While it has long been fashionable to demand the “Freedom of Tibet’, the world has virtually ignored the plight of the indigenous people and cultures of India. It is hoped that this report will generate awareness amongst the people of conscience throughout the world. Let the people of the world recognize the truth and demand an end to the ongoing “Cultural Genocide’ of India’s native cultures.

    Today as the world is overwhelmed by constant crisis many are recognizing the inherent wisdom of the ancient indigenous cultures. Hinduism, as a religion that was practiced before the age of Pyramids or the construction of Stonehenge, is an
    authentically indigenous tradition. It is one of the few remaining root cultures in the world. These root cultures represent an ethos that does not put a price tag on anything and everything. They carry a vision that reminds us that the greatest thing of all is that which lives inside each of us. Most importantly it carries within it the recognition that we are truly one family. We are all connected and this entire creation is a sacred gift. It is our collective duty to preserve, protect and enhance this gift for not only the present but for the future generations as well.
    ~~

    The proselytizing and conversions need to stop, and good Christians should oppose those proselytizing activities going on in India against Hinduism, and support Hinduism’s right to survive as a religion and a culture. Hinduism and Christianity are not dissimilar on most the principles they espouse, they potentially share some lineal relationships (more on this later), many Hindus treat Jesus as a divine being and as one of their gods, and when not put under the wringer with things such as organized conversions, Hinduism poses absolutely no threat to Christianity or any other religion (in fact, it encourages spiritual pursuit on any chosen path, as long as that path doesn’t involve trampling on others’ spiritual paths.)

    It can be argued that the survival of our human civilization (to which Hinduism made enormous countributions) very much rests on the survival of India’s native Dharmas of Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism and Sikhism. Please see also these earlier notes of mine for an informal historical perspective on India and the imperial and colonial struggles it has had to live through.

    Thanks for reading, and thanks to Robert and others for your hearty Diwali greetings.

    Happy Diwali –and early Hanukkah (also a Festival of lights), Christmas and Kwanzaa (lights play a central role in both of these too!) greetings as well– to one and all, including our non-Islamist Muslim friends (such as the lovely Asra Nomani, a brave soul and a voice for progressive reform of Islam)!

  41. says

    Dear Mr.Robert Spencer

    Thank you for the lovely Diwali (Deepavali) Greetings.

    Diwali (Deepavali) marks the TRIUMPH of Good over Evil. So let us all – Christians, Jews and Hindus – unite to fight the Jihadis.

    I have attached a Diwali message from the valiant Mr.Tapan Ghosh and his anti-Jihadi organization (“Hindu Samhati”) whose 25,000 youth activists are fighting against the Jihadis in Eastern India and Bangladesh.

    This is the same Mr.Tapan Ghosh who was interviewed by Ms.Phyllis Chesler for Fox News and Pajamas Media.

    http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010/09/09/phyllis-chesler-hindu-human-rights-muslim-islamic-terrorism/

    ———-

    SHUBHA DEEPAVALI !!!

    On the auspicious occasion of Deepavali, celebrating the home coming of Sri Ramachandra and the slaying of the demon Narakasura by Sri Krishna, I convey my best wishes to all on behalf of Hindu Samhati.

    On this hallowed occasion marking the TRIUMPH of Sacred over Evil, I have but one Prayer. I pray that all Hindus whose forefathers have been driven out of their homes by the Islamic aggressors from Afghanistan to Bangladesh, Kashmir to Assam or from any other part of Akhand Bharat, observe this day by taking a vow. Let us solemnly resolve that one day they will return to their ancestral home after defeating the Jihadi Ravanas of Kali Yuga – just like Sri Ramachandra eliminated Ravana of Treta Yuga and just like Sri Krishna eliminated the demon Narakasura of Dwapara Yuga.

    From Kamakhya to Dhakeshwari, From Kalighat to Kanyakumari, From Hinglaj to Durgiana, One Billion Hindus will be celebrating Deepavali by worshipping Devi Matrika (the Mother-Goddess). Let us all pray to Bhavatarini, the redeemer of the world, to protect the homelands of the Hindus from devastation, to save the honor of our women and provide strength to our youth. Let Shakti Devi provide us the courage to fight back against persecution.

    We beseech Maha Kali for her invincible power and blessings so that we too can perform the same sacred duty she did while slaying the demon Rakta-beeja. We are yet to get justice in the hallowed grounds of Ramjanmabhoomi in Ayodhya. We have no movements to wrest full control over the most venerable temples at Mathura and Kashi, or the thousands of other Hindu pilgrimage sites that either remain desecrated or are under the control of the Jihadis. Let us pray on this sacred day to obtain justice for reclaiming these holy places.

    In more recent times, the same Jihadi hordes led by Member of Parliament, Haji Nurul Islam committed untold atrocities on the beleaguered Hindus of Deganga, located in Barasat Subdivision of North 24 Parganas. Starting Monday, 6th September, 2010, Hindus have suffered relentless persecution with regards to accessing the road leading to Chattal co-operative society temple in Deganga. Hindu temples, homes as well as shops owned by Hindus were ransacked. Directly lead by Haji Nurul Islam, several Hindu Deities were broken, the treasury box looted and the temple desecrated by urinating on the broken Deities. Taking advantage of the prevailing situation, the miscreants illegally put up a loudspeaker over Deganga mosque on the 6th of September. Households owned by Hindus were selected and set on fire in addition to sexually abusing individual women of the same homes. Fearing for their lives, thousands of Hindu residents from approximately 8 villages fled the area.

    This Islamic persecution was opposed tooth-and-nail by Hindu Samhati’s brave activists. 15,000 Hindu Samhati activists led a “Deganga Chalo” rally in Barasat which led to the unjust incarceration of 6 senior Hindu Samhati workers, including our senior leaders, for 26 days in Dumdum Central Jail. There were also large protests in the heart of Kolkata by thousands of Hindu Samhati activists. The Deganga Durga Puja Samanvay Committee organized a massive protest rally against the local administration and corrupt TMC political leaders where more than 500 local Hindus from all neighboring villages, joined this “Dhikkar” rally either on foot, bicycles, motor Bikes or on auto rickshaws.

    In an unprecedented protest, Durga Puja, the biggest festival of Deganga’s Hindus, was boycotted by all the Puja committees of the Deganga area to register their strong protest against the inability of the local administration and police to protect local Hindus from barbaric and meticulously planned attacks by the Muslims. As a result, 42 Puja Mandaps across Deganga Block went empty.

    The second exile of Sri Rama which began in 1528 CE continues till this day. Since then, there have been at least 76 battles waged by Hindu society to reinstate Sri Rama back on the throne of Ayodhya, the most recent battles being in 1990 and 1992. For the past five centuries, over 300,000 Hindus have sacrificed their lives to bring Sri Rama back from his second exile. But last month, the Hindus were coerced into yet another setback in Ayodhya whereas Babur’s barbarian followers were rewarded with one-third of the sacred land of Sri Rama Janmabhoomi.

    Hindu Samaj is expected to gift away their sacred land to those who adore the genocidal invaders of India even though the Prayag High Court admits that there is overwhelming archeological evidence (submitted by the Archeological Survey of India and further explored by international experts by laser guided studies) that the Babri structure was built after demolishing an ancient Hindu temple at the same site. This historical truth was confirmed by the ASI by using Ground Penetrating Radar studies and documenting them very painstakingly in its report . This travesty is an epic example of blatant appeasement of Muslims, especially the Islamists that have anything but complete hatred against the Sanatana Dharma while overlooking both the conclusive archaeological evidence and the religious sentiments of over one billion Hindus living in India and around the world. Do the administration and judiciary indeed believe in the motto: “Satyameva Jayate”? If so, let them ponder over their actions and introspect deeply about the consequences.

    Ayodhya is merely the tip of the iceberg. There are over 10,000 ancient Hindu temples which were destroyed by Islamic invaders who built victory mosques over the remains of these demolished temples. Initially, the magnanimous Hindus do not ask for all of these holy places to be returned. All the Hindus asked for were that the three most hallowed sites of the Hindus, inAyodhya, Mathura and Kashi be returned. That is all that was required to correct the historical injustices the peaceful Hindu silently suffered at the hands of barbaric Islamic marauders. But similar to the evil Kauravas in the Mahabharata who refused to hand over even a needle-point of land to the just Pandavas and faced dire consequences in the Dharma yuddha at Kurukshetra, we are seeing a similar reaction from the totalitarian Islamic hordes who refuse to acknowledge the mistakes of the past and refuse to hand over even these 3 sacred sites of the Hindus.

    It is also quite revealing to see that since 1993, the cowardly political parties have developed cold feet and refused to launch or participate in agitational movements for the return of these 3 sacred sites, leave alone the remaining 30,000 Hindu sites. By faltering and shedding its fighting spirit, the so-called Hindu political parties tacitly turned the Sri Krishna Janmabhoomi temple at Mathura and Kashi Vishwanath Mandir into essentially “non-movements”.

    In spite of this adversity, Hindu Samhati requests the Hindus everywhere to not lose hope, but to instead agitate relentlessly for their rights. Let us dwell on this profound axiom from the Mahabharata: “Yato Dharma, Tato Jayah” meaning “Where there is Dharma, there will be Victory”. But Hindu society must also remember that “Dharma Rakshati Rakshitah” meaning Dharma protects the people only when the people defend Dharma. Therefore, your concerted efforts for the protection of the Hindu value system in the eastern part of India will protect the Hindus in not only this part of India but all of India and over the world.

    Every Hindu Must Take an Oath on This Sacred Occasion to Fight Against the Asuras (Jehadi Demons) of Today.

    And so we shall pray together to the Mother Goddess….

    Om asatoma sat gamaya,
    Tamaso ma jyotir gamaya,
    Mrityorma amritam gamaya

    Lead us from Falsehood to Truth
    Lead us from Darkness to Light
    Lead us from Death to Immortality

    Vande Mataram

    TAPAN KUMAR GHOSH
    President, Hindu Samhati
    http://hindusamhati.blogspot.com/

  42. says

    Happy Diwali! I understand that it is a festival of Lights much like that of the lamps in The Temple in Jersulem and the light from the Star of Bethleham. We need more light in this world.

  43. says

    Happy Diwali indeed! And may I recommend, admittedly at a distance of about 40 years since I read it, the “Ramayana” which is the story of Lord Rama’s victory. I remember it as being very enjoyable reading.

  44. says

    Happy Diwali to Hindus, Jains, and Sikhs, from a Christian!

    Hinduism and Christianity have some extremist elements. Islam IS extremist. That is the huge difference that fairuzfan wants to hide from us.

    fairuzfan points to Hindu honor killings. But fairuzfan won’t tell you this:

    Percentage of honor killings done by Muslims

    According to the article “Worldwide Trends in Honor Killings,” published in the Middle East Forum, Muslims do 91 percent of honor killings worldwide and 96 percent of honor killings in Europe. If you click on the above link, those percentages can be found five paragraphs below the heading “Methodology.”

    What else is fairuzfan not telling us?

    Islam’s core documents order the subjugation of the whole world to Islamic law, a form of theocratic tyranny. Muhammad’s own statements and actions, as recorded in the Islamic core texts, are the basis of that. Why does fairuzfan want to conceal that? Or why does he think it insignificant? Perhaps he has AIDS of the mind — i.e., a psychological immune disorder that prevents him from resisting the loss of his own and the world’s freedom.

    On page 222 (326 in the Arabic) of the earliest Muslim biography of Muhammad, he affirms that those who do not follow him will be slaughtered.

    Abu jahl said to them: “Muhammad alleges that if you follow him you will be kings of the Arabs and the Persians. Then after death you will be raised to gardens like those of the Jordan. But if you do not follow him you will be slaughtered, and when you are raised from the dead you will be burned in the fire of hell.” The apostle [Muhammad] came out to them with a handful of dust saying: “I do say that.”

    fairuzfan wants to fudge the differences between Islam and other religions. But as Ibn Warraq said, there are moderate Muslims, no moderate Islam. India has proven that Hinduism is compatible, and increasingly compatible, with freedom. Pakistan, on the other hand, shows what Islam is compatible with. The evil condition of human rights in the Muslim world — including Indonesia — has by now shown that Islam generally works against freedom. Even in Indonesia, supposedly proof of Islam’s compatibility with freedom, the standards of religious freedom are second world standards at best, and deteriorating. Aceh, for example, shows that Indonesia is open to the increasing application of Islamic law.

    Muhammad goes to war to impose Islam

    In Sahih Bukhari, the most canonical hadith collection:

    Volume 1, Book 8, Number 387

    …Allah’s Apostle [Muhammad] said, “I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.’ And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally and their reckoning will be with Allah…”

    In other words, Muhammad says that if you are non-Muslim, your right to live will not be sacred to Muslims, nor your right to property.

    *********************************

    In core Islamic texts, Muhammad says your lives and property are not safe from him unless you become a Muslim

    In Sahih Bukhari, the most canonical hadith collection:

    Volume 1, Book 2, Number 24:

    Narrated Ibn ‘Umar:

    Allah’s Apostle said: “I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah’s Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform all that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah.”

    **********************************

    Similarly in Sahih Muslim, a canonical hadith collection:

    Book 031, Number 5917:

    …Ali went a bit and then halted and did not look about and then said in a loud voice: Allah’s Messenger, on what issue should I fight with the people? Thereupon he (the Prophet) said: Fight with them until they bear testimony to the fact that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his Messenger, and when they do that then their blood and their riches are inviolable from your hands but what is justified by law and their reckoning is with Allah.

    **********************************************

    People of all religions must stand in alliance against Islam, despite what blinkered or deceptive people like fairuzfan try to do and say.

    Happy Diwali to Hindus, Jains, and Sikhs, from a Christian!

  45. says

    Obviously it was too much for Robert to wish us happy EID at the appropriate time – but never mind.

    Happy diwali to you but I cannot really see how lighting a couple of candles and tying a band on your sisters is really gonna help much; but simple ceremonies for straight forward people that I can understand.

    A lot of people here have talked about the robust Muslim-hindu relationship and I endorse those, they have been tested but are unbreakable; so teh truth must be told people like Sanjay_111 talks about 300 million hindus getting slaughtered – please give me a break.

    The platitudes of Hhindu servitude has been written en masse througout history – likely the figure is more like 30,000 – after that the Hindus would have automatically fallen in line – please keep things in proportion and tell the truth.

    Peace – Roland.

  46. says

    Happy Diwali to all hindus all over the world!
    Wish the lights banish darkness.

    (Some of the comments here were very instructive to me)

  47. says

    [Naga nationalism began way back during India’s struggle for independence…..]

    Wow – really – you’re such a source of information – who would have even figured this out.

    Here goes some data on forced conversions…

    [“Nagalim for Christ” is basically institutionalized bigotry and has been used as an excuse for ethnic cleansing and forced conversions. Muivah and his Christian cabal, need to be kicked around like street dogs.

    From IE of May 28 of this year – we have:

    [Tikhak Buddhists of Changlang district in Arunachal Pradesh on Thursday observed Buddha Purnima under the vigil of security forces. An armed group, said to belong to the NSCN-IM, has allegedly threatened them to convert to Christianity or face dire consequences.

    “The people in Wangnong and nearby villages have been passing sleepless nights. They are all Buddhists. An armed militant group belonging to the NSCN(IM) has ordered them to convert to Christianity,” said Ven Aggadhamma, the highest religious leader of the Buddhists in Changlang and Tirap districts.

    “Changlang and Tirap have been on the NSCN(IM) map since long. As their slogan is “Nagalim for Christ’, they are forcibly trying to convert the people,” the Buddhist monk said.
    ….
    It was in May 2004 that some armed groups first started threatening Buddhist villagers of the two districts to convert. “Since then this has been happening almost every alternate year,” he said.]

    [Christians have played a major part in quelling violence and negotiating peace]

    LoL!! Nice try.

    Yep – I’m sure that’s what Muivah was doing to the Kukis and the NLFT is doing in the North East…

  48. says

    Let me give you an example of how the land grab works

    Let us say A and B jointly hold a land L and both workship goddess P1 and follow worship W1

    C comes in, convinces A to add his own God J and worship W2. Slowly after some time C convinces A that only God J needs to be recognized and convinces him to adopt only W2 and drop W1. In the meantime since all this is going on in the joint land L, B starts protesting when W1 is stopped.

    Now C convinces A that all the land L belongs to him (A) and that he should not allow B to continue at all with W1.

    B then starts fighting A & C over his suddenly denied rights.

    In the above example note that neither B nor A had any problem in accepting C and W2. The problem arose when L was appropriated at the cost of W1.

    Is B a victim or not? You decide!!

  49. says

    thanks for replying Janaki. And thanks for proving my point through your reply.

    Janaki said: “did any hindu leader support the killing of Graham Staines, liar?……You on the other hand seem to applaud the murder of hindu monks.”

    Lol. I never made that claim. Where did I lie or do you just like calling people liars? Graham Staines was murdered by members of Bajrang Dal (a hindu supremacist group with close ties to the mainstream hindu party BJP). Kindly point out where did I applaud the murder of the Swami? You just confirmed that you are indeed a pathetic liar.

    Janaki said: “Did I talk anything about forcible conversions, fool? ”

    Sorry, my bad. I read between lines. How else were the missionaries “destroying” indigenous culture, according to you? Are you against tribal people receiving medical care and education?

    Janaki said: “Incidently, the Niyogi report which documented the missionary activities was setup by the congress government not by Hindu nationalists”

    You forgot to mention:
    “The Committee was set up in response to the Bharatiya Jana Sangh’s protest movement, “The Anti-Foreign Missionary Week””

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niyogi_Committee_Report_on_Christian_Missionary_Activities

    The wiki article also mentioned that the report was highly prejudiced.

    Janaki said: “You may consider it ethical for missionaries to conduct conversion activities in hospitals when people are at their mercy. I do not. (And, yes, they have tried it with me as well)”

    I can’t say unless you clarify your blanket statement “conversion activities”? Which part of it is unethical? Did Christian missionaries and medical services deny treatment to people who are unwilling to convert?

    Janaki: Usurping of tribal land is not “help”

    This is where you post links to help us understand what you are talking about. I googled this and found little substance beyond some hindu supremacist websites. But thanks to you I found this:

    http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:N-p-RoIHrC8J:www.edinburgh2010.org/fileadmin/files/edinburgh2010/files/docs/5._Niraj_Ekka.doc+Usurping+of+tribal+land+missionaries&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

    Janaki: Is it related to orissa? What has that got to do with orissa. Talk of irrelevancies!!!

    haha. Who said everything had to be tightly related to Orissa? Care to address the issue of banning beef eating in some Indian states? It is NOT irrelevant to people who want to eat without Hindus telling them what to eat.

    Janaki: “Oh, so it is now okay to kill the Swami? Who is rationalizing killings? So he opposed fraudulent conversions. Did he kill anyone? No. So he wanted to protect cows. Did he kill anyone for this? No. Instead he was killed. Before he was killed he had been harassed for many years”

    Don’t get all hysterical on me. Kindly point out where I rationalized Swamiji’s murder. More instances of proving my point that you are a pathetic liar.
    You say “he opposed fraudulent conversions” – how many cases did he register under the anti-conversion law? Where is the evidence that there were any forced conversions to Christianity. On the other hand, Hindu lynch mobs forced hundreds of Christians to convert back. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/oct/19/orissa-violence-india-christianity-hinduism

    Janaki: Earlier you said the tribals are not hindus

    Wrong again. I said, tribals are not Hindus by DEFAULT. In other words, you cannot take for granted that all tribals are Hindus. You haven’t disproved that.

    Janaki:”Some education……………..to comment on it”

    Unfortunately for you, I do know my way around Hindusim :). You haven’t disputed my claim that “But the major Hindu deities routinely use violence and force as a means of achieving immediate gratification.” So Hinduism does have stories where good guys do bad deeds to achieve their priorities (which are often expanding kingdoms, marrying princesses, placating gods etc etc). You are the one making ridiculous rationalizations.

    Janaki: “How different is that from you who cannot bear to hear an opposing viewpoint from a hindu without calling him/her a fundamentalist?”

    I called you a Hindu fundie because of your blatant lies in your first post. It is not as if you spoke God’s truth and I am insulting you.

    Janaki: I repeat, it is not possible for anyone who is not a muslim to accept the nonsense of the joker Zakir naik

    Speaking of irrelevancies……………….

  50. says

    Very interesting and informative thread. Some new trolls have identified themselves, and fairuzfan has once again made an appearance as The Grinch, this time to piss on Diwali well-wishers.

    fairuzfan, most non-Indian posters here, including me, do not possess a professional historian’s knowledge of the religious history of India. However, we know enough to be sympathetic to any group who are victims of Islam, and who do not threaten us. Your intellectual bullying notwithstanding, I have found the discussion to be stimulating enough to warrant delving further into the history of this fascinating festival.

  51. says

    Not likely. There is a lot of it, along with your shit too, and the mods would have to do something to deflood it. Perhaps they would consider flushing you out along with all your waste.

    Anyhow, Happy Diwali once again to all the decent folks here, and good night.

  52. says

    “Divide and conquer” – the trolls here seem to have this strategic pattern of trying to create suspicion and animosity between members of different faiths to divide us and pit us against each other, often using lies and half truths.

    Let’s agree that every religion has its crazies and has some ugly or less than admirable aspects, but the question is whether there is a pattern and wide spread violence related to one religion much more than to others in the present.

    As a Jew I have a different perspective. Ravi Narayan spoke of different refugees who arrived in India. Among them were Jews, and as far as we know Jews were not persecuted in India, so describing the Hindus as fundamentally intolerant seems pretty strange to me.

    And as for supposedly uniting just because of a perception of a common enemy, Israelis, for instance, love India for what it is, with no connection whatsoever to Islam. India is maybe the most popular tourist destination for Israelis, or at least one of the most popular. Every year 30-35,000 Israelis visit India (out of a population of 7 million). Many Israelis find India spiritually inspiring. Some stay there for months or visit the country multiple times. Most of the Israelis who visited India have very warm feelings for the country and its people. I have a friend who says she’s in love with India. Also in the US there are growing relations between the Jewish community and the Hindu community. I’ve heard from Israelis and also from Indian Jews so many good things about India that it will be very hard to sell to me the image of Hindus as barbaric blood thirsty fanatics. Actually Israelis visiting India usually stay away from Kashmir, and not because of the Hindus.

    And finally, happy Diwali from Israel!

  53. says

    Islam’s core texts more violent than those of any other major religion

    Tina Magaard (as pointed out by fjordman), is a linguist who got her Ph.D. in Intercultural Communication from the Sorbonne, and did a three-year study of the original texts of the world’s ten largest religions. One of her findings was that Islam’s core texts are the most aggressive against other groups.

  54. says

    It is astonishing that there are some like TSTM, Roland, fairfuzfan, Pokermutt, Ccoppenbarger etc. who have turned this thread on a simple festival celebration into Hindu bashing.

    Roland even wishes Robert Spencer had carried a similar message for muslims on Eid. As if that were the Hindus’ fault too. The discussion on violence in various religions could have been saved for another thread.

    To all the “useful idiots” who have indulged in Hindu bashing I have a simple question – “What were you Christians and Muslims doing in India in the first place”? Did you come there to sing songs? Did you come there to sell cotton and wheat?

    It is amazing that those who have deliberately brought violence and religious intolerance to India (and the world) are now lecturing a tolerant community on its virtues. It is this very language of their likes in India too that keeps provoking the Hindu majority.

    That Jihad Watch exists is proof how westerners feel threatened by Islam and muslims. Indians have not only lived through such threats but actually survived their brutalities. I am sorry to say where India is concerned the Christian invaders were no different. What madness drove the French, Portuguese and the British to become so violent and intolerant as to rule India with guns?

    Should we now feel that it is only just and fair retribution that Britishers and Europeans are now facing the heat from Islamists? Lets see how they handle that. Lets how the Americans handle the threat too. If anything we do not wish you to suffer the same tragedies that we suffered.

    To all these people let me state another fact. The muslim criminals who looted India did not even have oil then. In modern day the westerners will be devasted without oil and oil money invested in their economies.

    Christians and muslims have no business going around telling people their god is superior or have the audacity to teach civility to other cultures. Hindus have never gone around doing that. Even in the modern day it is the Christians or muslims who shout “death to homosexuals” and mind you, the gays are not even at war with you. What kind of behaviour is that?

    The day Christian and Muslim religious fanaticism ends. The world will see peace. It is indeed astonishing, that people from the most violent and badly behaved religions think they have the moral authority to lecture anyone on tolerance and peace. Jesus Christ is revered in India, but I doubt he will forgive Christians for the atrocities they have committed there. As for the Muslims, the less said the better. JW today has a post where muslims are up in protest over a dog named “Khan” So much for these religious sermons.

  55. says

    Thanks for the info.

    Can anyone recommend any good books or articles about Islam in the Indian continent? Wiki’s article is mostly just pro-jihad bathwash.

  56. says

    Happy Diwali and prosperous New Year! Jihad Watch is shedding the light of truth and exposing the destructive and inhumane nature of Islam and the atrocities it has committed and continues to commit against humanity.

  57. says

    “Lol. I never made that claim. Where did I lie or do you just like calling people liars? Graham Staines was murdered by members of Bajrang Dal (a hindu supremacist group with close ties to the mainstream hindu party BJP). Kindly point out where did I applaud the murder of the Swami? You just confirmed that you are indeed a pathetic liar.”

    You pathetic ass! You minimized the killing of an 80 year old hindu monk by making him seem like the guilty one. Moreover, you tried to connect him with the Graham Staines murder. Who is the liar here?

    “Sorry, my bad. I read between lines. How else were the missionaries “destroying” indigenous culture, according to you? Are you against tribal people receiving medical care and education?”

    Oh really? Culture means only religion. Go educate yourself,ass!

    “The Committee was set up in response to the Bharatiya Jana Sangh’s protest movement, “The Anti-Foreign Missionary Week”

    The bottom line the committee was setup by a congress government. And it would have been very easy for the government to write a report unfavorable to the hindu party. But sometimes the truth just comes out.

    “The wiki article also mentioned that the report was highly prejudiced.”

    Of course, it is “prejudiced” when their findings are not in your and your ilk’s favour.

    “I can’t say unless you clarify your blanket statement “conversion activities”? Which part of it is unethical? Did Christian missionaries and medical services deny treatment to people who are unwilling to convert?”

    Let me see – do you think it is ethical to come to a man/woman who is suffering in a hospital bed and suggest to him/her that he/she is there because of his/her beliefs and that if he/she were to become a christian he/she would be cured? Do you think it is ethical to offer education aid only if you are christian? I know people who converted for a day to get this aid.

    “haha. Who said everything had to be tightly related to Orissa? Care to address the issue of banning beef eating in some Indian states? It is NOT irrelevant to people who want to eat without Hindus telling them what to eat.”

    For the record, I don’t care who eats beef or not (and most hindus don’t either. In the early vedic period hindus probably ate beef). Stupid measures will be outvoted by Indian people next time around. But it is irrelevant when the post is addressing the specific case of orissa.

    “Don’t get all hysterical on me. Kindly point out where I rationalized Swamiji’s murder. More instances of proving my point that you are a pathetic liar.”

    Read your own posts, doofus! You made the murdered victim sound guilty as if he deserved to be murdered. You purposefully did that,didn’t you, pathetic liar?

    “You say “he opposed fraudulent conversions” – how many cases did he register under the anti-conversion law? Where is the evidence that there were any forced conversions to Christianity. ”

    It does not matter whether it is fraudulent or not (I do consider it fraudulent to be visited in a hospital bed with a promise of a cure if I were to convert). He has every right to oppose conversions as long as it is a case of his expressing his viewpoint in a non violent manner which he was. But he was harassed for years before his murder for his viewpoint, was he not?

    “On the other hand, Hindu lynch mobs forced hundreds of Christians to convert back. ”

    For the record, we hindus condemn all the killings – both the hindu/tribal mob as well as the christian mobs. But in a hurry to attack hindus do not forget that the violence was first started by christian mobs.

    “Wrong again. I said, tribals are not Hindus by DEFAULT. In other words, you cannot take for granted that all tribals are Hindus. You haven’t disproved that.”

    Disprove what? It is immaterial to me whether the tribals are hindu or not. It is up to them if they consider themselves hindus or not. Hindu or pagan or animist – if they want to preserve their culture they have every right to do so.

    “Unfortunately for you, I do know my way around Hindusim :). You haven’t disputed my claim that “But the major Hindu deities routinely use violence and force as a means of achieving immediate gratification.” So Hinduism does have stories where good guys do bad deeds to achieve their priorities (which are often expanding kingdoms, marrying princesses, placating gods etc etc). You are the one making ridiculous rationalizations.”

    I repeat my previous statement that hindu scriptures do not promote violence. Yes, there are plenty of stories depicting violence when it becomes the only way for good to overcome evil. In the Mahabharat, Krishna first went to negotiate peace. In Ramayan, Rama sent emissaries to ask Ravana to return Sita but that was turned down. When all else failed war was resorted to. That is not “promotion of violence”.

    I doubt if you know hinduism. Look at your previous nonsensical post

    “Arjuna burnt a forest and all its creatures because a god asked him to.”

    No, not because a god asked him to, but because he had promised a brahmin that he would do anything to satisfy his hunger. The brahmin turned out to be the fire god who wanted a forest to satisfy his hunger. (This is a story and only a very stupid person will take this story as a command for all people to burn all forests. The lesson here is more about keeping one’s word and promises.)

    “Dronacharya was killed by Arjuna in the same way. ”

    Dronacharya was not killed by Arjuna in the first place, dunce. Go read the stories a bit more.

    “So was Bhishma.”

    Bhishma was not killed from behind. He was killed by Arjuna hiding behind shikandin. Bhishma did not attack Arjuna when he was behind shikandin because he did not want to kill a person who he knew was born a girl. Shikandin basically became Arjuna’s shield.

    “Krishna routinely fought wars to capture and marry princesses. ”

    Krishna fought wars and freed captured princesses. If you believe that he married all these princesses you have to believe the other things it says in the book – that he was with the 20000 princesses at the same time (cloned himself?)

    “These instances are rarely even questioned by most Hindus. These are the characters that are revered by the Hindus and it is their example that the supremacists follow.”

    Hindus understand which are stories and what to learn from the stories and they question plenty. Since your knowledge of hinduism is shallow at best you will not understand this. Read the Bhagavad gita – it is all question and answers. Read the upanishads – all questions and answers

    “I called you a Hindu fundie because of your blatant lies in your first post. It is not as if you spoke God’s truth and I am insulting you.”

    Oh cut it, pathetic ass! You sound like a religious fundamentalist yourself but I will refrain from your silly childish games.

  58. says

    Yes, I am aware of that, and you are right that it is probably a good thing.

    I wasn’t trying to criticise them by the way. They have contributed a great deal to india, and I am very thankful personally for the excellent spiritual books which they publish.

  59. says

    I had read about the controversy over the minority status so I checked it out now. They had applied for that status to protect their schools from being taken over by the Communist Govt. in Bengal. In 1987 the Calcutta high court ruled in their favour. But in 1995 the supreme court ruled against them declaring them to be hindus, but allowed the schools to remain in their control because the law in Bengal exempted the RKM schools from Govt control. They are Hindu officially, and good thing too.

  60. says

    “”I read his complete works many years ago and they had a lasting effect on me.””
    In my case, Raja Yoga was the first spiritual/philosophical book I read about 10 years ago. Before that I used to be almost an atheist or at least an agnostic. But the presentation of Raja Yoga as an experiment/process to be conducted after which one can test the results for oneself appealed to me. Also, the brilliance and authority of his words convinced me there there might be more to the issue and it deserves more study. So I credit Raja Yoga with my “conversion”. It opened the doors to a lot of knowledge which I would have perhaps dismissed otherwise.

    “”mentioned above seems to show quite clearly Vivekananda didn’t think Muhammad knew what he had stumbled upon””
    You are right of course. When I had first read the Raja Yoga, I had accepted his explanation. But as I learnt more about the life of Mohammed, I wondered whether Mohammed did access any higher state at all. But now that I think about it, considering the extent to which Mohammed was able to influence people, and considering Vivekananda’s personal experience of those states and hence authority to speak on the subject, I think vivekananda’s explanation can be safely accepted.

  61. says

    Thank you so much, Robert and JW staffers, for your Diwali greetings. As pointed out by others, Diwali symbolizes the victory of good over evil. It is pathetic that some muslim posters and their dhimmified appeasers are throwing mud at Hindus on this joyous festival of lights.

    India (read Hindu India) has had a history of sheltering the persecuted: the Jews, Zorastrians (driven out by islamic barbarians from Iran), Tibetan Buddhists,….. In their almost 3000 year history in India, Jews have NEVER been persecuted in India. The same applies to Zorastrians and others. The only real and sustained conflict has been created by muslims and that speaks volumes about islam.

    Despite our differences at times, we kaffirs must remain united against islam because it is a threat to the entire mankind.

  62. says

    You once again impress me with your in depth knowledge of India and Hindus !!

    Wish you and your family as well as all jihadwatch readers a very happy and prosperous Diwali.

    This Diwali is special in a political sense too. The birthplace of Lord Rama, in whose honor we celebrate this festival, was destroyed by Muslims and a mosque built on top of it. Last month, the court ruled that the spot be returned to Hindus and the mosque be shifted away from the what Hindus believe to be his birthplace.

    Sanjay

  63. says

    Thank you RS and Happy Diwali to you too.
    There is nothing like this festival of lights in India where every hindu Homes are decorated with multitude of lights very much like christimas time here.

    Well said mulakush, though I would like to add that the British Raj did dampen the rule of the moghuls, enabling the resurgance of Hindus.

  64. says

    @ Ccoppenberger & Pokermutt

    I challenge you both to name all the churches destroyed by Hindus. I have already explained the claim of Ccoppenberger and this can be verified.

    Let me also tell you, I studied in a Christian school in Bombay and along with many Hindu (the majority students) and Christian students frequently attended mass without any prejudice. Hindus will hear any religious sermon that speaks of peace and truth.

    FYI, Christians are a minority in India, but most Hindu shops are decorated at Christmas in celebration. Most Santa Clauses are Hindus. A huge majority of Hindu homes decorate Christmas trees in their very own homes.

    Sure, there are conflicts between Hindus and Christians over the issue of religious conversions but that does not lead to burning of churches and bibles as you imply. It is not the Hindu style or way at all.

    Many of the teachings of Jesus Christ were followed closely by Mahatma Gandhi, as do many Hindus. Hindus worship TRUTH most of all. In case you have inadequate knowledge or information about the Hindu culture and seek to know more I am open to a discussion anytime, anywhere.

    In September this year a village destroyed by rains had Hindus rebuilding a Mosque for poor muslims of the village who couldnt affort the expense.

    Many Christian churches and buildings in India are officially declared heritage monuments and cannot ever be altered. And their maintenance is managed by public funds.

    Even if you happen to have come across some stray incident, please do not attempt to generalise it.

  65. says

    You may be stating something to defend your argument. However, you should also realise the Indian law does NOT approve of any of this. Such crimes are indeed punished by law. Hindus do not approve of any such practices. In case you did not know, Hindu religion does not dictate any rules on the subject youve touched upon.

    FYI of all the major religions, Hindu is the only one that did not go around preaching to the whole world to convert. It has never raised a sword or a gun to preach religion and convert people. Try and deny that. All other religions came in to India either as refugees or as invaders. We have buried that part of history to move on. Do you wish to go back to that history? I can talk about Christianity, Islam and all the religions too and their practices. Think twice before you throw stones in some pent up frustration.

  66. says

    So, you decided to sully this thread by throwing mud. Well I will try and keep the mud down to a minimum. I have three things to say.

    1) There are many foreign communities that became a part of india and have lived in peace for hundreds of years with hindus. Why? Because they knew how to mind their own business and practised their own religions quietly. They did not think it was their divine right to change the traditions of India and they also had the courtesy to not insult indians traditions by calling them “quasi-pagan” or devil worshipping cults. Those who have done so, have only invited trouble upon themselves. Tolerance is a two way street.

    2) You seem to think that the people who converted to christianity are holy pious folks who only want to pray to Jesus while the evil hindus assault them for no reason. This is a highly simplistic view. The reality is that the advent of missionaries in the rural/tribal areas has created a great deal of tension with animist/hindu tribals facing either ethnic cleansing or forced conversions. The situation is very similar to what muslims create. The violence in Orissa was bound to happen with all the tensions between tribals already in place. It was finally triggered by the murder of a hindu swami. The idea that “The message of Christianity is unresistible to the downtrodden and marginalised” as someone said is plain simplistic and childish.

    3) Yesterday on another thread you mentioned Hinduism as being incompatible with the American constitution because of the caste system. When you see Hindus in Europe, Canada and the USA behave even remotely like the muslims to subvert the constitutions, convert the locals to hinduism and impose the caste system, you will be most justified to raise that point.

  67. says

    Agreed, that you arent accusing all Hindus of this crime if it were true indeed. I know of this case and in a post before yours I have pointed out that the entire episode was a handiwork of communists. Maybe you have not checked subsequent reports of the investigative reports. Never mind.

    Even so, accepting what you say is the absolute truth I will not hesitate to apologise for that crime if it was committed in the name of Hindus. Will you apologise for all the crimes of muslims that are of an ongoing nature?

    The extremist Hindu groups were born out of constant anti-Hindu activities of many other religious groups. They werent born on their own. This is a subject often debated within India too. Mind you, these groups do not enjoy the outright support of Hindus.

    It is not possible to observe what you seek for Islam. Because many muslims rejoice the death of Jihad victims. Hindus do not rejoice the death of crimes by Hindu fanatics. Our courts prosecute them and punish them. Hindus are against them too. If by your logic the Hindus stand behind them, these fringe groups would have been in power in India (Hindus being in great majority) but they are not. Does that make sense to you?

    The topic here today was to celebrate Diwali, a Hindu festival. You and some others have chosen to vent your spleen against Hindus instead. How do you justify that? Regardless of all that we do find muslims guilty of, we would still wish you the very best on Eid and not bring up divisive issues at least on that occasion. So who’s sulking here?

  68. says

    >> “Let’s see everyone else observe it for Islam”

    On the contrary – there’s absolutely no need to observe it for Islam, especially since we know for example :

    – in Bangladesh, over 90% of the rape cases happen to be non-Muslims, even though the population of non-Muslims is about 10%

    – in Pakistan, non-Muslims “after partition” have been ethnically cleansed (almost completely) – where they should have been about 17% of the population, they are now between 4-5%

    – in Maldives, non-Muslim citizens have been legally disenfranchised – you cant be a citizen if you’re a non-Muslim

    None of the above are stray incidents but simply a statistical reflection of the hate & destruction that Muslim societies bring with them.

    Sadly, Muslim leadership and societies find nothing wrong in the kind of statistical destruction they pass on to others.

    So, it time for other communities and religions to demand better behavior from odious Muslim societies and changes to a pernicious political ideology that is Islam.

  69. says

    @ Fairuzfan: You said

    “Examining a set of believers’ behavior in juxtaposition to a religion’s content should be done in the most careful, thoughtful, and discerning manner possible. That does not seem to be sufficiently observed on this site. It should be observed for all religions.”

    Sure, I challenge to show any content in any Hindu scripture or literature that advocates or condones violence or killing of people as religious duty. If you can, I will personally burn that content and will encourage all Hindus to burn that book or content everywhere. Do you accept my challenge??

    On the other hand, do you want me to show content from Islam and Koran? Will you burn your hateful verses?

    When you can assure me Islam does not have, or will withdraw all its advocacy and condoning of violence and killing for religion, then that will be the day!

  70. says

    You know nothing about the orissa problem. So stop posting nonsense from nonsensical sites. Are you aware that the orissa problem mainly started by the usurping of tribal land and the attempt to destroy indigenous tribal culture by christian missionaries (in a manner similar to destruction of indiginous cultures in other countries)? Are you aware of the killings of hindu monks that had dedicated their lives to tribal welfare?

    No hindu scripture promotes violence. This “quasi pagan” religion as you call it is based on a a very deep and ancient philosophy that even today inspires and promotes individual spirituality.

    And incidently, most pagan religions are superior to a demonic cult such as islam

  71. says

    islam cannot expect similar treatment as other religions because:

    Hindu texts do not instigate its followers to ‘kill the infidels wherever you find them’

    Hindu texts repeatedly say that there are many different paths to reach God and each seeker is encouraged to find his own way.

    islamic supremacist ideas have made life difficult for all non-muslims in every muslim-majority nation without exception.

    muslims demand special treatment wherever they may be without a thought for any reciprocal acts.

  72. says

    Hi Jewdog, my house would offer a lovely diwali dinner to both of you…………then maybe you won’t need to pronounce talaq thrice or beat her………..BUT you may be accompanied with only one wife, hehehehehe.

  73. says

    Fairuzfan,

    It doesnt matter if youre a muslim or not. You are absolutely free in writing what you have. I am not influenced by WHO writes the post here, I am only responding to what is written. Since you sought equation with Islam, I have asked you to act for Islam. Can you?

  74. says

    ‘No hindu scripture promotes violence. This “quasi pagan” religion as you call it is based on a a very deep and ancient philosophy that even today inspires and promotes individual spirituality.

    And incidently, most pagan religions are superior to a demonic cult such as islam’
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Very well-put, Janaki.

  75. says

    Janaki is a pathetic liar and so are others rationalizing the killings of Christians in Orissa. Muslims are not the only violent people in the world. Violent Hindu fanaticism may not concern the life and limb of your average Westerner (Graham Staines anyone?), but it affects the religious minority living in that area.

    Lets examine some of Janaki’s bald face lies. Orissa has an anti-conversion law. The law prohibits forced conversion from a religion. The definition of “forced”, as you would have guessed, is flexible and depends on the whim of the political party in power. Any attempts by Christian missionaries to forcefully convert the tribals and the poor can be easily repelled by the law. And mind you, in 2008, Orissa was one of the states ruled by a coalition of which the Hindu based BJP party was in power. Despite having a majority Hindus and a Hindu party in power, very very few cases of forced conversion was ever registered under this law. Christian missionaries were involved in providing education and medical help to the tribals who are ever ignored by the Indian government – Janaki would call such help destruction of indigenous culture.

    The Hindu monk that Janaki was referring to, Swami Lakshmananda, whose primary activity was, yes, cow protection. Dara Singh, who masterminded the burning of Graham Staines and his two kids was part of his gang. In the states of India ruled by the Hindu supremacist parties, beef eating is banned – talk about separation of church and state. The Swami also engaged in educational and other social activities – but when Christian missionaries did the very same thing, it is forced conversion. Mind you, we are talking about tribals who are NOT Hindus by default, as they share nothing in common with the Hindu religion (and didn’t even celebrate Diwali btw). The Swami was murdered and later investigation showed the preps to be Communist Party of India (Maoists). But the Hindu supremacists took this as an opportunity to loot and murder. Hundreds of tribal Christians were murdered. Thousands were displaced. A legislator of the mainstream Hindu based party BJP, Manoj Pradhan was convicted by court for murder. He contested from prison and won. Yes, in India, we have a lot of convicted criminals winning elections.

    It may be argued that Hindu scripture did not call for the murder of other religions. Probably because, Hindu scriptures never acknowledged the existence of other religions. But the major Hindu deities routinely use violence and force as a means of achieving immediate gratification. Arjuna burnt a forest and all its creatures because a god asked him to. Rama attacked and killed Bali from behind his back. Dronacharya was killed by Arjuna in the same way. So was Bhishma. Krishna routinely fought wars to capture and marry princesses. These instances are rarely even questioned by most Hindus. These are the characters that are revered by the Hindus and it is their example that the supremacists follow. “Does Hinduism promote violence” is a dumb question to anyone who knows the first thing about the religion.

    Janaki’s post also reflects another reality of fundie Hindus. You can’t disagree with them without them calling you Muslims or Pakistan supporters.

  76. says

    The killing of hindu monks is not the past but as recent as 2008. The fight over tribal land is still ongoing.

    Unlike your claims the christian priests are not the victims here, but the tribals. They are fighting to protect their ways.

  77. says

    “why were the Hindus so good at resisting Islam (even after centuries of occupation and dhimmitude) ”

    Because the philosophy of the hindus is inherently well grounded. No hindu that understands the philosophy of the upanishads or the Bhagavad gita could ever be taken by the silly quranic verses.

    The only time we were on the verge of losing was when our manuscipts and libraries were burnt down. Luckily we were able to hide what we could, survive, clean up the rot that had crept in and move on to modernity.

  78. says

    why were the Hindus so good at resisting Islam (even after centuries of occupation and dhimmitude) while Christians and Buddhists and Animists and Pagans almost completely fell under Islam’s domination? (with Jews simply becoming dhimmis)
    +++++++++++++++++

    I have wondered about this too.
    islam killed so many cultures and civilisations: Byzantine, Persian, Egyptian and many others, but Indian civilisation has prevailed and is thriving.
    Inspite of the onslaught of islam for 1000 years, Hindu culture is still standing proud and grand. I hope it remains forever.

  79. says

    “Ravi Narayan: What I can tell you is that contemporary mainstream orthodox Islam’s jurists and theologians hold that no non-Muslim land can be attacked or subject to any step of their jihad warfare theology based solely on their being non-Muslim. Zakir Naik in Mumbai holds to this view as well.”

    Zakir Naik? You *must* be a muslim. No one else would take that joker seriously.

  80. says

    You are quoting Zakir Naik? Here is what that joker has to say about apostacy. The next time you refer to authority, please make sure you know what stuff they are made of.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMAZR8YIhxI

    No, It was not appropriate. Because hinduism unlike islam is undergoing reform and the laws of manu have hardly the same legitimacy today as the koran and the hadiths. Also, it was completely irrelevant and unnnecessary considering the behaviour of indians in other countries.

    “”But if Christians are to mind their own business, as you put it, there I will have to say that we have absolutely no intention of doing so.””
    When hindus/sikhs/jains go to foreign lands and DO NOT try to convert or undermine the cultures or religions of those lands, they are minding their own business. Similarly, the Parsis, jews and others in india have had the decency to do the same. The civilised thing to do is to respect different cultures and religions, especially when those cultures are not hostile to your beliefs and allow you to practise your religion in peace. BUt when you think it is your divine right to destroy traditions just because YOUR holy books say those cultures are crap, then you are inviting trouble. If you have every intention of doing that, then no one is going to shed a tear for you. Tolerance is a two way street.

  81. says

    @ fairuzfan

    In another post of mine elsewhere on JW I have written that if God were to come down today and write a holy book he would have written the US Constitution. Any doctrine that respects life, freedom and humanity will be held dear by a Hindu. And therefore I hold the US Constitution in such respect.

    I do not respect the views of any orthodox or otherwise of any Islamic jurist or theologian, and that includes Zakir Naik. Because saying is one thing but practicing it is what matters. Unfortunately, that doesnt hold true for any muslim leader. We have muslim Imams in Delhi who openly desire Islamic rule in India. So I am afraid I am not going to take lessons from you on how much to believe these jurists and imams. And I wont even quote “taqiya” as a reason for it. Their acts are there for all to see.

    If I were in a US court and were asked to hold my hand on the US Constitution and take an oath instead of any religious Hindu book I WILL GLADLY DO SO. My religion allows me the FREEDOM to do that and I will not be killed for anything I choose to do. Can you say the same about yours?

    There is no cause to even discuss compatibility of Hinduism with the US Constitution. Hindu culture predominantly advocates the same things that the US Constitution enshrines. I cannot say for sure if Hindus, Christians, Jews or Sikhs are great or not. But I can say with a great deal of certitude that many practices of Islam are sheer evil. If they werent, you wouldnt have a Jihad Watch in the first place. Is it any surprise you dont have a Hindu-watch or Christian-watch?

    If you nurture a deep rooted desire to defend Islam, please do so, logically and passionately. But do not tarnish other religions in your quest to do so. That is where you are offensive.

  82. says

    As quite few westerners know about diwali

    That is not true Ghonchubhai (love the nickname), Diwali and its importance to hindus is quite well known in the west.

  83. says

    >”Fairuzfan, only a miserable Muslim could troll on a goodwill thread wishing Hindus, Sikhs and Jains a Happy Diwali.”<

    Hello libero, I am sure most JW readers agree with you!!!

  84. says

    Thank you for that post cc01. Francois Gautier has also said this about islam. Let us take hope.
    http://www.francoisgautier.com/En/will_islam.html

    OT: There is another Indologist/historian called Koenraas Elst who in my opinion has a very scholarly and unbiased attitude towards whatever he does. I say this because he has also criticised some aspects of hindutva and attitudes of hindus. Hindus here would do well to read his blog and writings. Here is a 6 part interview of him on the ayodhya verdict. Worth watching.
    Part 1 of 6
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9FmXTKGPrg

  85. says

    Actually, a lot of facts have already been presented in this thread. People can do their own research and form their own opinions on the issue. They can also search for a few of TSTM’s posts on this website and form their opinions about him.
    As for exposing janaki’s so called lies, it has been done with meaningless statements such as “very very few cases of forced conversion was ever registered under this law”. This guy then goes on to ridicule the same law when he mentions the BJP mp who won an election from prison.
    As for the tribals who are “not hindus by default”, it is to be noted that they have lived in a hindu India for thousands of years and are still “not hindus by default”. I can’t think of a greater compliment for hindus.
    As for Hindu scriptures never acknowledging other religions, that’s rich. There were hardly any other religions around when they were written, and is also one of the reasons why hindu philosphy is not exclusivist. There is a reason why it is called “sanatan dharma”.
    As for the stuff about Hindu mythology and epics, once again, people are free to do their own research and form their own opinions.

  86. says

    TSTM >> “Muslims are not the only violent people in the world. Violent Hindu fanaticism may not concern the life and limb of your average Westerner (Graham Staines anyone?), but it affects the religious minority living in that area”

    Why not cough up some data on this, as opposed to barfing about those bad, bad Hindus – entire populations of Hindus in Bangladesh, Pakistan and Kashmir have simply been killed, raped or cleansed out? The only thing comparable to such forced mass murders in the sub-continent, were the British (read Christian) sponsored famines and partition.

    Nagaland – mostly taken over vicious, intolerant and rapine christian war-mongers who have turned mass murder into a way to political power. Now these same people are threatening the Buddhists of AP with forced conversions.

    How many Meiteis have been killed by the Christian Nagas or what is the death toll caused by the NLFT versus by fundamental religious Hindus in the last 2 decades?

    How many Hindus/Buddhists have disappeared in Bangladesh and Pakistan since independence, as opposed to those killed by religious Hindus?

    How many terror attacks by 1 billion religious Hindus, versus the number killed by Bush in Iraq or the number killed by 1.3B Muslims?

    Indian Hindus have in stead been happy to have the most powerful person in the country and also the defence minister be Christians – is there any major Christian country (50M or more in population) where a religious minority of 2% can say that?

    Rationalizing Christian killings, would be wrong, but overlooking the vicious history of Christian sponsored terrorism in India, the nexus between Naxalites and Evangelists etc, is inane and dishonest.

  87. says

    “Janaki is a pathetic liar and so are others rationalizing the killings of Christians in Orissa. Muslims are not the only violent people in the world. Violent Hindu fanaticism may not concern the life and limb of your average Westerner (Graham Staines anyone?), but it affects the religious minority living in that area.”

    Did any hindu leader support the killing of Graham Staines, liar? On the other hand most mainstream hindus backed the secular law that convicted the killer. You on the other hand seem to applaud the murder of hindu monks. Who is the pathetic one here?

    “Lets examine some of Janaki’s bald face lies. Orissa has an anti-conversion law. The law prohibits forced conversion from a religion. The definition of “forced”, as you would have guessed, is flexible and depends on the whim of the political party in power. Any attempts by Christian missionaries to forcefully convert the tribals and the poor can be easily repelled by the law. ”

    Did I talk anything about forcible conversions, fool? Read my post properly before you bring in irrelevancies.

    Incidently, the Niyogi report which documented the missionary activities was setup by the congress government not by Hindu nationalists

    You may consider it ethical for missionaries to conduct conversion activities in hospitals when people are at their mercy. I do not. (And, yes, they have tried it with me as well)

    “Janaki would call such help destruction of indigenous culture.”

    Usurping of tribal land is not “help” however well you try to whitewash it. And the root cause of the problems is the fight over land between indigenous tribals and christian tribals backed by the missionaries

    “In the states of India ruled by the Hindu supremacist parties, beef eating is banned – talk about separation of church and state. ”

    Is it related to orissa? What has that got to do with orissa. Talk of irrelevancies!!!

    “The Swami also engaged in educational and other social activities – but when Christian missionaries did the very same thing, it is forced conversion. ”

    Oh, so it is now okay to kill the Swami? Who is rationalizing killings? So he opposed fraudulent conversions. Did he kill anyone? No. So he wanted to protect cows. Did he kill anyone for this? No. Instead he was killed. Before he was killed he had been harassed for many years.

    “Hundreds of tribal Christians were murdered. Thousands were displaced. A legislator of the mainstream Hindu based party BJP, Manoj Pradhan was convicted by court for murder. He contested from prison and won. Yes, in India, we have a lot of convicted criminals winning elections.”

    Make up your mind. Earlier you said the tribals are not hindus. Manoj Pradhan is of the kandha tribe. How did he suddenly becomes a hindu? But incidently, the secular judiciary (backed by the hindu society) has convicted manoj pradhan as recently as september 2010

    ” Arjuna burnt a forest and all its creatures because a god asked him to. Rama attacked and killed Bali from behind his back. Dronacharya was killed by Arjuna in the same way. So was Bhishma. Krishna routinely fought wars to capture and marry princesses. These instances are rarely even questioned by most Hindus. These are the characters that are revered by the Hindus and it is their example that the supremacists follow.”

    Some education for you. Mahabharat and Ramayan fall under the category ithihasas (tales of ancient times).

    All these stories (and others like jataka tales) contain stories with morals to be learnt from the example of men that lived in the past.

    All the characters are normal with good and bad and none are depicted as perfect man to emulate (although some are as close to perfect in certain aspects like yudhishtra in conduct, Rama in duty etc.). If you don’t even know all this, then you are not qualified to comment on it.

    “You can’t disagree with them without them calling you Muslims or Pakistan supporters.”

    How different is that from you who cannot bear to hear an opposing viewpoint from a hindu without calling him/her a fundamentalist?

    I repeat, it is not possible for anyone who is not a muslim to accept the nonsense of the joker Zakir naik

  88. says

    Roland >> “likely the figure is more like 30,000 – after that the Hindus would have automatically fallen in line – please keep things in proportion and tell the truth”

    Do you have any documented data to prove this. No – not your hypotheses, which is about as worthwhile, as what I flush down the toilet every morning. Till you do have any data, we’ll wait for the truth from you (or would that be inherently impossible for you).

    Incidentally, the ethnic cleansing in Bangaldesh and Pakistan themselves would run into tens of millions and yes – you can look up the census from 1941 through now (for combined Pakistan and then Pakistan, Bangladesh).

  89. says

    “”likely the figure is more like 30,000″”
    1,00,000 hindu captives were killed by Timur Lane in a single night in 1399. The number of slaves taken by muslims out of india combined with the number killed in india over centuries will be tens of millions definitely.

    “”after that the Hindus would have automatically fallen in line””.
    Killing 30,000 of the cowardly cow worshippers should be more than enough eh? That’s what you want to say?

    “”A lot of people here have talked about the robust Muslim-hindu relationship and I endorse those, they have been tested but are unbreakable””
    Unbreakable? What shit are you talking about? Muslims are a curse on the planet, and the sooner you convert or die out the better.

  90. says

    Roland is obviously lying. I agree with the estimate that 80 million people were killed by Muslim conquests in India. Muslim conquest of India started way back in 714 AD and continued till the European colonialism of 15th century.

  91. says

    Speak of blowing the top of your head. lol.

    I was responding to Janaki’s lies. Why would you think that I was justifying Muslim atrocities by raising issues regarding Hindu supremacists? Lots of Hindus have been exterminated by muslim majority Bangladesh and Pakistan – does that justify attack on Christian dalits and tribals?

    Naga nationalism began way back during India’s struggle for independence. Look up the history of that sometime. Most of the violence has been internal between Naga factions. And where is the connection between Christian religion and Naga violence? The Naga extremists are socialists inspired by Mao’s policies. Calling it “Christian sponsored terrorism” is an obvious and stupid lie, especially when Christians have played a major part in quelling violence and negotiating peace. Where is the evidence that these terrorism was directed against non-Christians? Where are the evidence connecting Naxalites with Evangelists? On the other hand, the link between BJP, RSS, Bajrang Dal etc with criminal activities are proven in courts of law in India.

    You stupidly bring the issue of “terrorism” of 1 billion Indians. Nobody claimed that all 1 billion hindus are terrorists. Now who is arguing like a muslim? BTW aren’t you forgetting the economic and social discrimination practiced throughout the centuries of caste system? Count the number of people who died due to the deprivation caused by the caste system.

  92. says

    TSTM is a troll. You are wasting your time debating with someone who is going to keep repeating the same thing combined with half truths and the obfuscation and denial of facts. Search for his other posts on this website. You will know what I mean.

  93. says

    TSTM – As expected, no data – I notice you could not provide any relative data on the violence by Muslims versus Hindus versus Christians – so, apparently, much of your tirade is just nauseating hate speech.

    [I was responding to Janaki’s lies. Why would you think that I was justifying Muslim atrocities by raising issues regarding Hindu supremacists? ]

    No – you were juxtaposing random incidents of violence by Hindus with systematic statically visible ethnic cleansing by Muslims – subterfuge will not get you anywhere.

    [bring the issue of “terrorism” of 1 billion Indians. Nobody claimed that all 1 billion hindus are terrorists]

    Looks like you do not like facts….

    And you certainly do not understand the relevance of data.

    Before throwing stones at Indians – look at the relevance of the information.

    The relative propensity to terrorism and mass violence is important – hence, the relative percentage populations of Muslims/Hindus in US jails or the global incidents of terrorism by Muslims versus Hindus.

    Ignoring this is fine – just shows that you’re trying to juxtapose incidental criminal behavior in some Hindus with planned mass murders of by Muslamaans or Christians.

  94. says

    The way this site works is, people usually point out instances of lies or obfuscations. Not make blatant accusations and flee.

    My only aim was to provide JW readers the not so nice side of Hinduism in India. Thanks for running away.

  95. says

    Thanks Nishant – I realize that. For extremist bigots like Roland or this TSTM fellow – mud slinging, obfuscation and half truths is easy and natural.

    Any push back and request for data is promptly responded with propaganda of the Reza Aslan or Anjem Chowdhury variety.

  96. says

    No, I recognise a troll when I see one. I merely pointed out what you were. As for pointing out lies/half truths, your posts are full of them, combined with a tendency to ignore facts you don’t want to talk about. Like I said, anyone who cares to find out will be able to form their opinions.

  97. says

    Search for Francois Gautier (some have mentioned him on this thread) or for Koenrad Elst.. These two independent writers have plenty of stuff on it.

    Or search for Swami Vivekanand’s views on Islam. Nobody has said it better..

  98. says

    “…. and as far as we know Jews were not persecuted in India … ”

    Very nice post by you Doom and Gloom.

    Jews were opposite of persecuted in India. I hope you know about the jewish top general in Indian army – Gen JFR Jacob who was one of the key planners of India’s victory over Pakistan and liberation of East Pakistan in 1971.

    I did not know India was such a popular tourist destinations for Israelis. Delighted to hear this.

    Sanjay

  99. says

    Thank you for your post Doom-and-gloom. I just wish our government and immigration officials would endeavour to make it easier for people visiting India, especially from countries such as Israel. From what I have read, it can be quite a frustrating experience. Other than that, India has a lot to offer travellers, historical, spiritual and natural beauty.

  100. says

    “”Or search for Swami Vivekanand’s views on Islam. Nobody has said it better..””

    I have read quite a bit of Vivekanand. The worst criticism which I have read is in his Raja Yoga where he says Mohammed is responsible for all the violence because he “stumbled” upon a higher state of consciousness without undergoing the spiritual preparation/purification for it. In other places he has also somewhat praised Mohammed by saying we ordinary humans are not in a position to judge mohammed. I personally think he was being merely polite because his work would not be served by blasting mohammed. Also note, his guru had even experimented by living as a muslim for a while. Perhaps that is the reason for his kind opinions. There is no way that he had not read the koran and he must have been equally bemused by all the crap in there. This politeness and white lies about mohammed is also the position of the Ramakrishna Mission. Perhaps they think it is not their work to speak openly about islam.

    Here is the criticism from the Raja Yoga.
    http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Complete_Works_of_Swami_Vivekananda/Volume_1/Raja-Yoga/Dhyana_And_Samadhi

  101. says

    “This politeness and white lies about mohammed is also the position of the Ramakrishna Mission. Perhaps they think it is not their work to speak openly about islam.”

    You might be aware that the Ramakrishna Mission operates as a “minority” organisation and not as a “Hindu” one. This is because otherwise the government would deny it funds for various programs. The Indian constitution has many articles/clauses that discriminate against the majority commmunity. That may be one good reason why the mission will remain silent on other religions. That may not be a bad policy at all, either.

  102. says

    Thank you, nishant, for the link to Vivekananda. I read his complete works many years ago and they had a lasting effect on me. It is good to know they are online.

    A more complete quote of the passage from his work on Raja Yoga you mentioned above seems to show quite clearly Vivekananda didn’t think Muhammad knew what he had stumbled upon, and as a result of his perverted understanding of the samadhi experience he unleashed great evil on the world.

    “The Yogi says there is a great danger in stumbling upon this state [variously called enlightenment, or cosmic consciousness, or superconsciousness, or samadhi]. In a good many cases there is the danger of the brain being deranged, and, as a rule, you will find that all those men, however great they were, who had stumbled upon this superconscious state without understanding it, groped in the dark, and generally had, along with their knowledge, some quaint superstition. They opened themselves to hallucinations. Mohammed claimed that the Angel Gabriel came to him in a cave one day and took him on the heavenly horse, Harak, and he visited the heavens. If you read the Koran, you find the most wonderful truths mixed with superstitions. How will you explain it? That man was inspired, no doubt, but that inspiration was, as it were, stumbled upon. He was not a trained Yogi, and did not know the reason of what he was doing. Think of the good Mohammed did to the world, and think of the great evil that has been done through his fanaticism! Think of the millions massacred through his teachings, mothers bereft of their children, children made orphans, whole countries destroyed, millions upon millions of people killed!”

    It would seem that Muslims like to focus on the “good” Muhammad allegedly did, while the rest of world comprises the “millions massacred through his teachings” and “millions upon millions of people killed!” as a result of his hallucinations.

  103. says

    Thanks for the followup, nishant. My own “conversion” followed a similar trajectory, but started with Richard Bucke’s now century-old “Cosmic Consciousness” (ISBN 076610298X). Bucke experienced a Paul-on-the-road-to-Damascus experience, which led him to write this classic comparison of the experience as described by figures as varied as Buddha, Jesus, Mohammad, Dante, Whitman, etc. All were reduced to using metaphors, analogies, allegories and poetic language to describe the experience, and a particularly valuable part of the book is where he lays out side by side the passages from the Gita, Bible, Qur’an, the writings of various people who underwent the same experience, to illustrate the different ways it is described. Bucke was a racist, and his writing reflects the times and his culture, so the latter part of the book where he theorizes about which races were more likely to have large numbers of enlightened souls is bunk. However, the first part of the book where he compares the descriptions of the religious experiences of various figures is first rate research. This book was what opened to me a completely new way of thinking about religion.

    Others that soon followed in rapid succession were Paramahansa Yogananda (“Autobiography of a Yoga”), Sri Aurobindo (“The Adventure of Consciousness”), and of course all of Vivekananda’s works on Jnana, Hatha, Karma, and Raja Yoga, even Goswami Kriyananda’s Kriya Yoga. Many, many others, as well, mostly those involving the intellectual arts (Raja), not so much those that involving emotion (Jnana) or physical discipline (Hatha, Kriya, etc.). Oddly enough, it was this detour through mysticism that finally provided the framework for an understanding of Christianity, including Christian mysticism, and its many forms of devotion, worship, even the iconology. The Sermon on the Mount now takes on a decidedly different meaning than before.

    A particularly interesting personal account of the core mystical experience at the heart of religion is Franklin Merrel-Wolff’s “Pathways Through to Space” where he describes his moment-by-moment experiences in exquisite detail as they unfolded over a period of several weeks. I don’t know of any other work quite like it, but fellow spiritual travelers will find it a worthwhile read. He also wrote a follow-up work that is more along the lines of classic Yoga writings titled “The Philosophy of Consciousness Without an Object.”

  104. says

    Thanks for the interesting post, Eastview. I found a couple of Franklin Merrel-Wolff’s books at this blog, but not Pathways Through to Space. http://www.themostwantedbooks.blogspot.com/
    I googled him and he definitely seems worth reading. I will try and see if his book is available in bookshops here, it should not be too hard to find. Richard Bucke’s book should be available onine.

    I confess I have not read too many books by westerners writing about their own experiences, except perhaps those by western followers of indian gurus. This is because books written in the indian context are more well known here and therefore easily available.

    I know what you mean about Christianity, and people have placed much of the blame with the church for the situation. But I am postive that the Light which unites will continue to grow brighter.

    Speaking of that, I am sure that we are undergoing a growth/transformation in consciousness and religions such as Islam will die out eventually. Here are a couple of links which give hope. The first is a question answered by a member of Ananda, the organisation started by Paramahansa Yogananda’s disciple Swami Kriyananda. The second is an interview of a lady called Vimala Thakar.
    http://www.ananda.org/ask/221/will-sanatana-dharma-(eternal-religion)-survive?/
    http://www.charityfocus.org/blog/view.php?id=2038

    Aurobindo Ashram has also a great collection of books by Sri Aurobindo and the Mother. Although there are slight technical differences with vedanta, those are hardly relevant for most people. The books are highly practical and can be ordered online and some downloaded for free. I have a slight preference for the Mother’s talks. The books compiled by AS Dalal are especially good.

  105. says

    Would it be correct to assume you are posting from India, nishant? If you can place online orders from there, Merrel-Wolff’s “Pathways Through to Space” (2nd ed.) is available new in paperback from Amazon.com for $17.10. The reviews do a good job describing the book. It is also available both new and used from other online booksellers accessible from Amazon.

    FWIW, his second book “Philosophy of Consciousness Without an Object” describes a later, separate awakening he experienced, but this book appears to be out of print. However, both books are combined in a separate book titled “Franklin Merrell-Wolff’s Experience and Philosophy: A Personal Record of Transformation and a Discussion of Transcendental Consciousness,” also available from Amazon.com for $28.95, as well as new and used at cheaper pries from other booksellers.

    As one of the Amazon reviewers of this second book put it:

    “To existing reviews I just want to add that one of the deep joys of this book is Dr. Wolff himself, as transmitted by his language. Extremely literate, deeply kind, considerate, powerful, courageous, patient, thorough, Dr. Wolff is beautiful to read. This book contains the truth, in sentences that are so precise that they are like mathematical equations, and so vast in scope that they are themselves like books.” To understand how such a sentence would be written, refer to the biographical snapshot of Merrell-Wolff at http://www.integralscience.org/gsc/ .

    Accounts written by contemporary westerners such as FMW, using modern language, are more accessible descriptions of enlightenment than the sometimes fractured translations of the masters. Merrell-Wolff’s is one of the best, in my opinion. I should add that, as a physicist, I am fascinated by the existential implications of his work. However, I don’t understand some of what he writes, so am withholding judgment about how they relate to the physical domain.

  106. says

    Yes I am posting from India. Thanks for the Amazon links, I will order the books.

    I went through that webpage on FMW. He attained the state in about two decades which is a very short period of time. He also seems to have done this through Shankaracharya’s process of discrimination between “real” and “unreal” which is considered to be the hardest one to practise. He no doubt had already done most of his spiritual practice in his previous lives.

    The descriptions and the language used is very interesting for an Indian. Such as “Substantiality is inversely proportional to ponderability” and “High Indifference”. But one who is familiar with the subject would understand what he means. His experiences remind me of what they say about consciousness “That which we hold to be real draws our entire being”. This is very dramatically seen in the accounts of Ramakrishna’s life where he often had a hard time keeping his mind on the physical plane and kept drifting upwards. But of course, all those who attain do force themselves to remain here and help others just like FMW did.

    Since FMW studied Shankara and tried his method, you might be interested in the metaphysical arguments of Shankara’s non-dual philosophy, and his refutations of other systems of philosophy in India. This is available in a work called “Dakshinamurti Stotra with Manasollasa”. Manasollasa is the commentary on the main hymn by Shankara’s disciple Sureshwaracharya. Manasollasa is literally “mind-delight” and is named so because it promises to delight the mind of the one who reads and comprehends. A somewhat corny claim one might think, but it was certainly true for me. However, one problem for the westerner is the amount of Sanskrit words he has to deal with in many Indian texts.

    One publication is available for free on the net here. You can go through this one and see if you find it interesting.
    Dakshinamurti Stotra translated by Alladi Mahadeva Sastri
    http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/dast/index.htm

    The version which I have read is a Ramakrishna Math publication by Swami Harshananda titled “Daksinamurti stotra with Manasollasa”. It used to be available for ordering on their websites, but now I cant seem to find it on their main websites. However the book is listed on one of their american websites. If you are interested, you can give them a call.
    http://www.sfvedanta.org/content/bookshop/phpscripts/fullCatalog.php
    The exact one I have is this one with a white cover with the same art (cached webpage link : http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:dOA5RLXboeMJ:www.exoticindiaart.com/book/details/IDE935/+Daksinamurti+Stotra+with+Manasollasa&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=in