An Egyptian priest dares to speak the truth about the Islamic supremacist agenda for Christians in the Middle East. "Priest says Muslim extremists want to rid Middle East of Christians," from CNA, December 19 (thanks to all who sent this in):
Cairo, Egypt, Dec 19, 2010 / 06:02 pm (CNA).- An Egyptian priest has explained that radical Muslims are trying to rid the Middle East entirely of Christians, who once comprised the largest religious group in the region."This is what the Muslim fundamentalists want," the Egyptian Catholic spokesman Fr. Rafic Greische told Vatican Radio.
"They want the Christians to evacuate from the Middle East and leave. And this is what is happening every day." He expressed frustration that governments throughout the region, not noted for their responsiveness to popular concerns, "do not take serious action to relieve or solve these problems."
Egyptian Christians face significant public and private discrimination, including policies that make it nearly impossible for them to build churches. In November, a crowd demonstrating for their right to build a church in Giza clashed with police, who fired on unarmed protesters.
More than 150 people -including some children- remain in jail following that incident, in a country notorious for police brutality and other human rights abuses.
While Christians have difficulty even finding a place to worship in Egypt, some Egyptian Muslims manage to make their antipathy against the country's Christians well-known. Fr. Greische said groups of Muslims are known to "become violent and make demonstrations," often burning pictures of the head of Egypt's Coptic Orthodox Church.
They're particularly offended, he noted, by "people who want to change their religion" - specifically, Muslims who want to become Christians, who can expect ostracism and may face death threats. Christians who dare to evangelize Egyptian Muslims can expect violent retribution if their work becomes known.
Even instances of Christians becoming Muslims can make these tensions turn explosive. In October, when suicide-attackers at Iraq's Cathedral of Our Lady of Salvation killed almost 60 worshipers at a Sunday Mass in Baghdad, the Islamic State of Iraq group claimed it was an act of retaliation for two alleged female converts from Christianity to Islam, supposedly being held captive by Coptic Christians.
Iraqi experts at the time told CNA that they had no reason to believe the story. Fr. Greische noted that it might simply have been an instance of an ordinary domestic disagreement, being turned into a public libel against Coptic Christians in a climate of suspicion and hostility.
He suspected that the Oct. 31 attack in Baghdad, one of the deadliest acts of anti-Christian terrorism in years, was a response to the Synod for the Middle East that had concluded earlier in the month. That synod ultimately issued only light criticisms of Islamic regimes, and represented an exercise of the kind of religious liberty Islamic extremists disallow.
Fr. Greische said the Baghdad incident had given rise to a climate of fear among Christians throughout the region. "All the churches, we have police all around our churches," he told Vatican Radio. "It's as if we are in a fortress."...
This is the last gasp of Islam. Muslims are leaving Islam in unprecedented numbers. Islam cannot survive the information superhighway that is paving over the ignorance that has for centuries been the stronghold of Islamic dogma. Check out these numbers, these numbers were given out by a Muslim sheikh on a Muslim TV channel. (original arabic transcripts are also available for download)
"Dying Islam"
http://crossmuslims.blogspot.com/2010/05/dying-islam-lislam-mourant.html
"All the churches, we have police all around our churches," he told Vatican Radio. "It's as if we are in a fortress."...
hopefully they have Christian policemen watching over them...We have seen just how "not so helpful" Muslim police have been when violent Muslims show up to administer religiously tolerant Islamic activities...
here's an idea--why don't we take all the muslims here that cause trouble, send them to the middle east, and take in the christians who are persecuted?
I tend to agree but why just those who cause trouble. Those who don't might well in the future - or at least their many children might! We would also need to examine the math. Be careful of what you wish for.
How I wish. The Sheikh could just have been a nutter like Anjem Choudhary. Or not.
I liked that Cambodia now had no Muslims and that Russia now had just 20 token mosques. But from WHERE exactly did he get his figures? Are any of them true? OR is this just total disinformation to confuse the enemy?
Muslims want you to leave your neighborhoods too....
Who said the policy of 'Lebensraum' was dead? Islam practises it every day. And it's Sunna, too! Der Führer, Mohammed, said he would clear Al Jazeera of all Jews.
Islam, Islam über alles.
It has been my conviction all along that Islam is doomed to virtual extinction, though I also believe that this will take the better part of a century and will often prove to be a bloody affair as many Muslims go kicking and screaming into oblivion. The link you provided (thanks by the way) only confirms my view here and so I will allow myself to be encouraged.
Of course, I do concede that I could be wrong about Islam's impending demise and, if I am, then God help mankind unless the deity is Allah, in which case this is a very creepy universe and there will be no recourse left for the more honorable part of the human race but to play the role of a collective Prometheus. Better to go down fighting as free human beings than exist as slaves for Allah.
But I think the odds are with the better angels of our nature (and God's if this entity exists). I remain sanguine about man's future, which of course will have to mean the complete marginalization of Islam as man's journey into future history continues.
Scary. It sounds like pre-war Germany. Of course, this has been going on for a very long time.
As a Christian: I find it shameful and repugnant that most mainstream Christian congregations in the West appear to be consciously oblivious toward their Christian counterparts throughout the Middle East and elsewhere who are being daily martyred and forced from their homes by supremacist Muslims. Additionally, I find curious that absolutely no missionary activities in majority Islamic countries are ever mentioned in the national Christian publication I receive bi-monthly. Is this an accident? Sadly, I strongly believe it is not as I like to cynically think of this reluctance to do what is morally right as similar to "one salesman respecting another's territory". I believe these mainstream "Christians" are unwittingly reserving a very warm spot in Hell for their callousness toward their Middle Eastern brethren.
OT
32% of British Muslim students support killing for Islam; 40% want Sharia Law
http://www.examiner.com/american-politics-in-vancouver/32-of-british-muslim-students-support-killing-for-islam-40-want-sharia-law
Are we surprise why Islam is becoming more invisibly and increasingly brutal, and yet bowed down to by many treacherous Western and Christian leaders especially with the most dangerous Trojan horse in the White House – the most cunning defender of Islam and the Arab/Ottoman world ?! It’s evident enough when Hussein Obama showed so much contempt for the Judeo-Christian God in the American Declaration of Independence (see http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=210701). However, Hussein cunningly worships the Islamic god in his Cairo speech - see: "He cited the Koran as saying: "Be conscious of God and speak always the truth. Mr Obama said Islam had "always been a part of America's story"....."
– In: Thursday, 4 June 2009 Obama reaches out to Muslim world (at – http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8082676.stm)
I am in complete agreement. You must be new. Christian missionary work in islamic states is forbidden. Churches cannot be built or repaired. On the other hand it is a requirement for Muslims in Christian lands to prosletyse - carry out missionary work.
In Birmingham England last year two Christian missionaries were told by a Muslim police support officer that they were not allowed to spread the Christian faith "in a Muslim area". They were and he was wrong but signs of things to come?
Why is there no outrage that Christians are oppressed in Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan and elsewhere?
Probably because it isn't reported in the western press. the BBC Newsnight programme did though last week have an item about the plight of Coptic Christians in Egypt.
OT
Lawyer: Jihad suspect denied ‘speech’ rights
An accused suburban jihadist from Sudbury should be freed on bail, said his lawyer, who argued that the case is more about free speech than terrorism.
http://news.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view/20101220lawyer_jihad_suspect_denied_speech_rights/srvc=home&position=also
Islam's pronounced paranoia in the face of Christian (or, I presume, any other kind of) proselytism is one of its most surprising, and of course, revealing, characteristics at the present moment, when one would have thought that Muslims generally had only reasons to feel confident to the point of triumphalist about their religion's prospects in the world: spreading like a brush fire, massively ensconced in the heartland of its ancient enemy, commanding wealth unparalleled in the whole of human history.
Why the abject terror at missionary work? Why are Muslims so extremely the opposite of confident that what they consider to be Divine Truth cannot look out for itself on its merits as Divine Truth? Small communities of put-upon Coptics or Maronites, stray churches where once there were hundreds, catechism teachers sticking strictly to interested parties, Muslim converts to other religions - all of it, surely, a tiny phenomenon - cause the world's fastest growing faith to go wild eyed with anxiety.
Representatives of Islam frequently refer to "conspiracies" against their religion and supposed attempts to undermine and destroy it - a fantasy that strikes outsiders as alomst comically foolish.
I have never heard of there being any critical thought in the Muslim world - "higher criticism" of the Koran all comes from Westerners, or Westernized Muslims. But Islam is showing more of the signs of crisis than Christianity did in the nineteenth century when faith was tested by the onset of modern thought, although of course one reason for the visibility would be Islam's unique, as far as I can see, tendency to manifest its developments as violence.
Any thoughts in here? What are the sources of Muslim paranoia?
No level of outrage could erase the fundamental principles of Nazism regarding Jews.
No level of outrage will erase and has never erased the fundamental principles of Islam regarding non-muslims.
"This is what the Muslim fundamentalists want," the Egyptian Catholic spokesman Fr. Rafic Greische told Vatican Radio.
"They want the Christians to evacuate from the Middle East and leave....."
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
But if the Vatican believes Arab Christians should prove their loyalty to the Muslim-Arab world by bashing the Jews and Israel's ostensible occupation of Muslim land - as we saw from the most recent Vatican synod - why appeal to the Vatican on Vatican Radio? The Vatican is clear as to what should be the Christian response to murderous persecution of Christians by their Muslim 'neighbors'. Why not re-affirm your hatred of Israel's Jews and their 'illegal' occupation of historic Muslim land?
I know this is a cynical question on my part. What else am I to conclude from recent Vatican policy?
Midshipman Easy, the source of such paranoia is definitely the creator of Islam, to justify evilness, including beastly sexual lust and violence, right from the beginning, such as Mohammed’s own child-‘bride’ was only 6 years old, Aisha – the Pedophile rapist Mohammed was 50 and such as the 17 year old beautiful Jewish Saffiya, who was forced to marry 57 year old Mohammed right after Saffiya’s husband, wealthy tribe leader father & uncle were beheaded after being tortured with all the other Jewish men in Khaibar - the last Jewish tribe mass murdered in order to create Nazi-like supremacist, racist and savage Arabian kingdom! Is it any wonder that Islam creates nutcase believers just like Nazism create the crazy Nazis?! See - Sharia Law for the Non-Muslim
Sunday, 07 November 2010 11:54 Bill Warner
"....In Medina, Mohammed sat all day long beside his 12-year-old wife while they watched as the heads of 800 Jews were removed by sword.[1] Their heads were cut off because they had said that Mohammed was not the prophet of Allah. ...Islam is 14% Allah and 86% Mohammed...." (At - http://europenews.dk/en: In - http://www.rightsidenews.com/2010110712066/us/islam-in-america/sharia-law-for-the-non-muslim.html )
Using that same logic then muslims should leave the west.
I clicked on the link and had a look at the original article in situ.
There were comments - not many, but there were comments.
And three - one identifying as being from the UK, one from Michigan USA, and one from Florida, USA - could have been made by posters at this forum.
Awareness *is* spreading at the grass roots, right across the West and beyond it.
This is an excellent article. It is so good to see a Middle-Eastern Christian actually telling the truth about the plight of Christians in Dar-al-Islam.
The only passage I take issue with is this:
Even instances of Christians becoming Muslims can make these tensions turn explosive. In October, when suicide-attackers at Iraq's Cathedral of Our Lady of Salvation killed almost 60 worshipers at a Sunday Mass in Baghdad, the Islamic State of Iraq group claimed it was an act of retaliation for two alleged female converts from Christianity to Islam, supposedly being held captive by Coptic Christians.
..................................
This is *not* an instance of "Christians becoming Muslims". This is a case of Christian women kidnapped by their Muslim "neighbors", who then claimed that the victims had converted to Islam. Hence, when they returned to their community, Muslims could claim that the Copts were "holding Muslim women against their will"—about women they themselves had kidnapped!
There is a long, sad history of Muslims kidnapping Christians—especially young women—raping them, and then informing their families that they were now "married" to their captors ad had "converted to Islam". In most cases, their Christian families couldn't dare to try to rescue them, because the threat to the whole Christian community was too great.
That is *exactly* what is going on here. And, thanks to modern communications made available by civilized Infidels, the Christian community now in danger includes not just family and villagers, or even just Egyptian Christians, but Christians *anywhere* in Dar-al-Islam.
The terrible church massacre of Christians in Baghdad was "revenge" for the escape of the Coptic Christian women in Egypt. It may not be the last such case of Muslim "revenge".
"Islamic jihad siege of Baghdad church ends with 52 people murdered"
...A cryptically worded statement posted late Sunday on a militant website allegedly by the Islamic State of Iraq appeared to claim responsibility for the attack. The group, which is linked to al-Qaida in Iraq, said it would "exterminate Iraqi Christians" if Muslim women in Egypt were not freed.
It specifically mentioned two women in Egypt that extremists maintain have converted to Islam...both were later recovered by police, denied any conversions...
"We direct our speech to the Vatican and say that as you met with Christians of the Mideast a few days ago to support them and back them, now you have to pressure them to release our sisters, otherwise death will reach you all," the message said.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/11/islamic-jihad-siege-of-baghdad-church-ends-with-52-people-murdered.html
Here's the original story:
"Egypt: Islamic supremacists fabricate story of forced conversion of Muslim woman to Christianity"
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/09/egypt-islamic-supremacists-fabricate-story-of-forced-conversion-of-muslim-woman-to-christianity.html
when suicide-attackers at Iraq's Cathedral of Our Lady of Salvation killed almost 60 worshipers at a Sunday Mass in Baghdad, the Islamic State of Iraq group claimed it was an act of retaliation for two alleged female converts from Christianity to Islam, supposedly being held captive by Coptic Christians.
I hate hate.
*** 33:21 ***
But, if you hate evil, is that hate?
Salah,
Very encouraging, at least according to this video link. However, I'm not holding my breath. Let's hope it's accurate.
Ima
Alarmed Pig Farmer,
Our Christian God, Lord Jesus Christ taught us that "Love must be completely sincere. Hate what is evil, hold on to what is good" (Rom 12:9).
Iraqi bishop recounts horror of kidnapping, while hoping for a moderate Islam
Archbishop Basile George Cassmoussa leads the approximately 30,000 Catholics of the Antiochian Rite in Iraq, Speaking this week in Spain, the cleric gave an accounting of the toll that the war in his country, and Islamic terrorism, has taken upon his flock. According to Archbishop Cassmousa, there have been 8 priests murdered, 52 churches destroyed, 182 members of his flock disappeared, 1,109 Christians murdered ("...that includes ten who were crushed by American tanks; one of whom was a young monk of my diocese," said the archbishop), and 13 priests abducted, including himself. Archbishop Casmoussa was the first of his flock to be kidnapped, in 2005.
http://www.speroforum.com/site/article.asp?idCategory=33&idsub=125&id=45370&t=Iraqi+bishop+recounts+horror+of+kidnapping%2C+while+hoping+for+a+moderate+Islam
This article is a load of BS. Christians face some discrimination in Egypt because the country has been ruled by Muslims for centuries and the Muslims rulers hire their family and friends for high positions (usually other Muslims). It might be a little tougher for Christians to get ahead in business but, with the exception of a couple of unfortunate incidents, Egyptian Christians continue to be very secure. In some provinces, it is tough to build churches but in others it is easy and there are many churches currently under construction all over the country. Most Egyptian Muslims have Christian friends and most Egyptian Christians have Muslim friends. Relations on a day-to-day basis tend to be pretty good. The church-fortress thing is also BS. Most of the churches have no security at all. There is a picture of a church under construction.
http://nilelife2.blogspot.com/2009/10/coptic-church-luxor.html
OT: I used to hear Spencer regularly on the Michael Savage Show. I will listen for Spencer again this evening. Haven't heard him interviewed in months. What happened? Is Spencer too anti-Jihad for Savage's sensitivities or is Savage too politically correct for Spencer?
But didn't he also say, "love your enemies?" Pray for evil doers, etc.?
Hailing Midshipman Easy, if you're still there. The reason for Muslim fear of other religions proselytizing goes all the way back to the very birthplace of Islam and the first few years of Muhammed's preaching in Mecca amongst the pagan polytheists who lived there. He tried the method of the free and open exchange of ideas and opinions with the Arab polytheists for about five years, but attracted only a few dozen of them as followers. It didn't work out for him. Muhammed was a flop. So he packed up and moved to Medina where he decided it was "no more mister niceguy". I think every Muslim must know about this, and so I presume a Muslim thinks non-muslims are all evil and stubborn and thick-headed and therefore need to be threatened with violence. There's no tradition of free debate and peaceful discussion -- even amongst the believers they quickly tend to favor the violence solution to disagreements. I don't know muslims personally (but I've had a couple run-ins with them), so I base this view on a study of their holy scriptures and from Jihadwatch website articles.
Love the sinner, hate the sin.
So, there is really no reason to think, pursuant to your thought pattern, that Christians in predominantly Muslim lands face any more discrimination than Muslims do in non-Muslim lands. Are you for real? Do you not know that in Islamic doctrine the attempt to convert a Muslim to another faith is to be met with death? That Muslim men can marry non-Muslim women but a Muslim woman dare not marry a non-Muslim man upon pain of great bodily harm or death? That a Muslim who converts to another faith is to be killed? What other major faith has such heinous doctrines? And let's not forget Islam's prescription for those who criticize Islam or Mohammed in any manner---yes, death again, such prescription going directly contrary to the freedoms enshrined in the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America. Be specific if you can about other faiths in these regards, which I predict here you will not be.
You are a whitewasher of spiritual totalitarianism. And I wonder why you have chosen the moniker of "Joseph McCarthy." I take it that your petty point in such a nomenclature is to drive home the idea that the former Wisconsin senator saw enemies where they don't exist, just as skeptics of Islam see enemies where they are nothing but phantoms. Well, if this is so, know well that McCarthy was wrong, not in his designation of the real enemy, i.e., Communism, but "merely" in the misadroit approach he took. But now, to the great consternation of people who run interference for pure evil, such as you, they are not up against a McCarthy type but something far more solid---the bulk of the citizenry of the West which, with each passing year, is becoming more and more disgusted with the cult founded by a disgusting man, Mohammed.
You are either a superdhimmi or a Muslim in thin disguise. I wonder if you have the honesty to inform others here at JW which it is. I kinda' doubt it. Enough for now.
The tip off from the joseph mccarthy person is: He speaks with a tone of authority , but carefully omits saying how he knows what he says he well knows. It would be so easy to say he recently visited there, or has friends living there, or he used to live there....but no. He's not the only JW poster who does that. (Although he could lie easily enough. But he 's too lazy to do that even.). But, what do I know? I've never been there.
re. the Copts.
Perhaps our 'Joseph McCarthy' would care to try to explain away *this*.
http://markdurie.blogspot.com/2009/11/abduction-and-islamization-of-christian.html
http://www.csi-int.org/pdfs/csi_coptic_report.pdf
"A pioneering new report released by Christian Solidarity International and The Coptic Foundation for Human Rights details the abduction, rape, forced marriage and forced islamization of Coptic women and girls in Egypt.
"Despite their significant numbers in Egypt (8-12%), the Christian community, known as the Copts, is frequently subject to widespread marginalization from society and even violent forms of abuse. According to the Egyptian Constitution, Islam is the “religion of the state” and its “principle source of legislation”.
"While the hardship of minority communities in the Middle East is well documented, the abuse detailed in this report reveals
"a disturbing union of religious oppression, gender-based sexual and physical violence and forced marriage
"that corresponds with international standards of human trafficking.
"** There have been fifty such cases in the previous year in one Egyptian parish alone.** {my emphasis - dda}.
"Among the dozens of cases documented in the report:
'Seventeen year old R. received a call, the polite young man introduced himself as Amir and said that he was an admirer of hers. He wanted to meet her in a church.
'She was drugged, kidnapped, and when she woke up,“Amir” told her that he was in reality Wali …
'She was given the name Fatima, beaten every day, forced to wear a black veil, and marry a man named Mahmoud whom she had never met.
' When she refused to have sex with Mahmoud, his family held her down while he raped her. She began bleeding profusely. She is unable to have children as a result of the rape.
'The tactic complicity of the Egyptian Government is apparent in its systematic lack of investigations and prosecutions, suspension of programs designed for protection, and virtual absence of social services for survivors of this abuse."
Etc.
One should note that exactly the same pattern of kidnapping, rape, and forcible 'conversion' to Islam of young women - indeed, in some cases, of minor girls - obtains in Pakistan, where both Hindu and Christian girls are subjected to it., and the Pakistani authorities do NOTHING to condemn it, prevent it or punish it.
In 2005 there were 25 Muslim kidnappings-and-conversions of Christian girls, and *50* of Hindu girls.
Patrick Sookhdeo discusses it in his book about the Christians of Pakistan, 'A People Betrayed'. Muslims kidnap, rape, and forcibly 'convert' and stuff into the harem not only single non-Muslim girls, but *young married women* (presumably in order to inflict maximum humiliation both upon the women and their Christian husbands; how deliciosus a thrill of pure evil it must be for the Muslim supremacist as he rapes an unwilling woman, knowing that he is *also* desecrating her *Christian* marriage vows!).
Salah I wouldn't believe anything coming from a sheik. These numbers sound like a ploy to me. Islamists will use figures like these to take us off guard. I don't believe a word of it. They know the power of the internet and would looooove us to believe that they are all done. When you start seeing Mosques not being built on every corner, or CAIR, Muslim Brotherhood, ISNA, and many of their organizations decreasing not increasing then you can believe the battle is being won. You can be sure that Robert, Pamela, and Brigitte would be the first to put their pens down but I don't see that happening as a matter of fact the battle is just beginning. Europe has been blinded by their own choice and are just realizing what liars these people have been.
bhobby:
I have visited many countries in the Middle East, including Egypt on various occasions (including one recent visit). I have stated various times that I am a Roman Catholic.
There is a huge anti-Islam movement on the internet that makes a point of emphasizing every single negative action perpetrated by a Muslim, whether they actually happened or not and whether they had anything to do with Islamic teachings or not.
I suggest to everyone to look at facts though and not just blindly believe what you read on the internet. A better source would be asking a few Coptic Christians and other Christians that grew up in Muslims nations about their actual experiences. I can guarantee they will be more mixed and will not be the horror stories that you read on JW.
http://www.amazon.com/Blacklisted-History-Senator-McCarthy-Americas/dp/140008105X
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/12/-voice-of-the-copts.html
I suggest you find some facts soon, you have none...
http://vladtepesblog.com/?p=28457
More than 100 Arab Christians in Canada named on Al Qaida-affiliated website
By Eeyore | December 20, 2010
From Yahoo Canadian News:
VANCOUVER – More than 100 Canadian-Arab Christians are listed on an al-Qaida affiliated website, apparently targeted because of their alleged role in attempting to convert Muslims.
Some of those named say concerned Canadian intelligence officials have contacted them.
The Shumukh-al-Islam website, often considered to be al-Qaida’s mouth piece, listed pictures, addresses and cell phone numbers of Coptic Christians, predominantly Egyptian-Canadians, who have been vocal about their opposition to Islam.
In a forum on the website, one member named Son of a Sharp Sword, says “We are going to return back to Islam and all of the Mujahedeen (holy warriors) will cut off their heads.”
Three pages of the fundamentalist, Arabic-language website titled “Complete information on Coptics” sets to “identify and name all of the Coptics throughout the world who hope to defame Islam,” The website calls the Coptic Christians living abroad “dogs in diaspora,” a derogatory reference in Arabic.
===========
Now bugger off until you smarten up...
..."There is a huge anti-Islam movement on the internet that makes a point of emphasizing every single negative action perpetrated by a Muslim, whether they actually happened or not and whether they had anything to do with Islamic teachings or not. ..."
so let me get this straight... you are here so as to DEFEND islam???
...keep talking while i'm loading...
Part of me wants them (Middle Eastern Christians) to never leave, as they should have a right to be wherever they want, but if it has come to this, I hope other countries will have the decency to offer shelter to those in peril. It's not right to just do nothing. We have to stand up for them, and I hope it doesn't come to a World War-- I think some of the Islamist fanatics would like to push us toward that-- but I think we can 'head off at the pass' some of the Muslim fanatics if we offer help to the Christians, as it will show the Islamists they aren't going to win this one.
As a country whose Constitution and Bill of Rights is based on freedom, equality, and reasonableness we should become a Sharia-free zone and welcome all those seeking refuge from the global jihad seeking to subjugate and plunder non-Muslims around the world. The problem is that non-Muslims (and enslaved Muslims alike) have taken refuge from genocidal jihad (such as in Sudan) in the U.S. for years only to now have to watch Sharia law creep into U.S. society, aided and abetted by elitists who are copacetic to the "ideals" of supremacy, privilege, plunder, and deflecting responsibility. Soon, there will be nowhere to run.
Wellington wrote, re "Joseph McCarthy":
You are a whitewasher of spiritual totalitarianism. And I wonder why you have chosen the moniker of "Joseph McCarthy." I take it that your petty point in such a nomenclature is to drive home the idea that the former Wisconsin senator saw enemies where they don't exist, just as skeptics of Islam see enemies where they are nothing but phantoms...
...............................
Excellent points, Wellington. I have long considered "Joseph McCarthy's" user name very suspect, as well.
Thanks for responding, Joe mccarthy. I know what you say that reading articles on Jihadwatch gives a picture of being in a place where numerous horrible things happen every day, which of course is unrealistic. You've been to Islamic countries. Have you been prompted by your personal experiences there to look into their religious beliefs? Maybe it's not important. I've had some personal experiences with Muslims here in the States and they've impressed me as cold and a little arrogant. There were a few of them at a place of business I worked for. But it was the 911 attack that motivated me to really look into the religious beliefs of these people. How about you?
Quite to the contrary, attacks on Christians by Muslims are the most under-reported of all news items.
I don't know where you get your news, but news outlets, including cable, echo about
You read the above article and cry "false." I know dozens of Copts, Serbs, and Israelis who have direct experience dealing with these devils. Either you are blind or you hate the truth.
Well, between their religious leaders' proclamations that it's really "al Yahood" who are behind their problems, and the Swedish authorities' statements about "stabilization," all the Christians' there should be sitting securely. Right?
bhobby:
I've done some research on Islam. I feel that I have a pretty decent understanding of their faith. Again, I found some positives and some negatives but nowhere near what is portrayed on JW. Not being allowed to leave Islam is definitely one of the negatives which is constantly emphasized here. The allowance for "Offensive Jihad" is another one of the negatives.
From my research, mainstream Islam does not allow Christians living in Muslim countries to be physically harmed and does not allow terrorism against innocent civilians. It does not promote honor killings or female genital mutilation either. It certainly does not allow mothers to kill their 4-year old children in "rituals" either. Muslims are obliged to practice "Defensive Jihad" which is the defence of their homelands from invaders. Terrorists believe that Islam is under attack and that they are engaging in this by attacking innocent civilians. Mainstream Islamic scholars regard attacks on US soldiers in Iraq as legitimate "Defensive Jihad" but attacks on the US homeland as illegitimate. "Offensive Jihad" refers to attacking a country in an attempt to spread Islam. This form of Jihad is not mandatory. It must be ordered by a Caliph and that person does not exist today.
Islam does not have any history of terrorism against civilians prior to recent history. Religious minorities have historically been treated better under Islamic rule compared to Christian rule.
Somehow a sentence was cut off:
I don't know where you get your news, but news outlets, including cable, echo about
Muslims are obliged to practice "Defensive Jihad" which is the defence of their homelands from invaders.
----------
Which countries are those? Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, Turkey? All formerly Christian countries which fell to the sword of Islam. Muslims have been the invaders since 632 A.D. Name a country where Muslims dominate today that they DIDN'T invade...
You post is entirely over the top. Every single statement, from jihad attacks to Christians persecuting religious minorities is a lie, and a verifiable one at that.
@ joseph mccarthy 9:13pm
You wrote: 'I've done some research on Islam.'
And, boy, have you got a long way to go!
You're one of those 'it's-the-culture-not-Islam-to-blame' apologists. You add, '....mainstream Islam does not allow...blah, blah, blah...' What d'ya mean, 'mainstream Islam'? Now you're pretending that if the 'culture-not-Islam-argument' doesn't work, the fall-back position is that there are different versions of Islam.
Listen Mccarthy, there is 'Islam', full stop. And everything Muslims do to fulfil the quranic mandate found in Al Qur'an, 8:39 is to make sure there are no other religions in the world. "So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief - meaning non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone."
You're a clown!
This "Joseph McCarthy" is a purveyor of half-truths and lies. Anyone who would still maintain that "religious minorties" have been better treated over the centuries by Muslims than by Christians has obviously not read what people like Bat Ye'or and Ibn Warraq have had to say about this persistent myth. Maimonides himself spoke about how much worse Jews were under Muslim domination than under Christian rule. Today Muslims live in freedom in Western nations while Christians and other religious minorities live as second-class citizens, if even this, in one Muslim nation after another.
And the distinction between defensive jihad and offensive jihad is a phantom distinction. Most anything can be turned into a reason to wage so-called defensive jihad. Israel exists, hence jihad. American soldiers have set foot on Saudi soil, hence jihad. Tony Blair, when Prime Minister, did not protect Islam enough in Britain, hence jihad. Et cetera.
And anyone who criticizes or mocks Islam or Mohammed is to be killed, this dictum thus being directly in opposition to the freedoms guaranteed by the First Amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America and the Western concept, in general, of what freedom truly means and entails. Islam is a menace to liberty. One knows this or should know it.
Well, wherever there is tyranny, and Islam is a form of spiritual tyranny par excellence, there will be people who will put forward spurious hypotheses masquerading as axioms in an attempt to clean up the mess always left behind by totalitarian ideologies such as Islam. This is the part "Joseph McCarthy" is playing here.
Yomayngsup and you have the right great idea. But right now, it doesn't stand a chance in parliament. Because of freedom of religion and anti-discrimination laws prevailing in Democratic Nations.
But that's just it, Islam is anti-Democratic. It should be analysed and educated in comparison with all essential Democratic laws and values. And it will be then found wanting or hopelessly messy. And we should educate as many people about this as possible. We should encourage Muslims to openly choose between Democracy or Theocracy.
But then still many Muslims, helped by their PCMC-defenders will wriggle out from under indictments of them being anti-Democratic.
But what we could then try is that we ourselves present Muslims with a reformed Islam, and only reformed in the sense that is an intact Islam, but absolutely submissive to the Democratic system. We could present this to the Muslims and negotiate about it. We should not wait for them to come up with it, as Daniel Pipes wants. That would take forever and time is of the essence.
Then, when the Muslims, as they most probably will, reject this reformed Islam, proposed by us, then it is time to say:
That Muslims are responsible accountable choosers for an Islamic ideology that is either A. Clearly anti-Democratic. or B. At least so very unclear, ambiguous and far too prone/ vulnerable to totalitarian misuse and misunderstanding, that it can therefore justly also be declared very harmful to the Democratic system. Let us have no more of this "mysterious harmless religion"-stuff. Let us have no more stuff like that "Muslims are just born in Islam, without any choice and accountability at all".
And on that basis, we can then strive for several sorts of states, 2 of whom are Democratic and Islamic. And in the long run we could strive for both of these having only or primarily citizens who are first and foremost loyal to the system they live under, the Muslims under Islamic rule, the Democratically-minded people under the Democratic rule. Then we finally can really exchange citizens. Sometimes even forced.
Yes, then we truly could discriminate on grounds of free-will-preference of people themselves. Who then only have themselves to blame.
Only deceit will be a big problem, but at least then legally we would have grounds to defend our democracies adequately.
Needless to say that what Buraq and Wellington are writing has my wholehearted support. Spot on as they are, as ever.
Joseph,
J: "I've done some research on Islam."
K: Have you read the Quran, the important parts of the Hadith, and the Sira? What did your research consist of?
J: "I feel that I have a pretty decent understanding of their faith. Again, I found some positives and some negatives but nowhere near what is portrayed on JW. Not being allowed to leave Islam is definitely one of the negatives which is constantly emphasized here. The allowance for "Offensive Jihad" is another one of the negatives."
K: At least you acknowledge that there are some negatives.
J: "From my research, mainstream Islam does not allow Christians living in Muslim countries to be physically harmed"
K: They can be harmed if they criticize Islam or Muhammad in public, and of course they are subject to sharia law or remnants of it. Egypt is no exception in this regard; neither Christians or anyone else there is permitted to criticize Islam or Muhammad.
J: "...and does not allow terrorism against innocent civilians."
K: Muhammad himself engaged in terrorism against people who we would consider innocent civilians, such as poets who spoke against him. Innocence is obviously defined differently in Muslim countries, with regards to public expressions, religious status, and so on. Non-Muslims who've been exposed to the message of Islam but reject it are considered guilty of the worst of crimes in Islam and thus are not innocent in that important sense.
J: "It does not promote honor killings"
K: It does. Example: Marriage or sexual relations between a non-Muslim man and Muslim woman is illegal and warrants the death penalty in classical sharia. That's why these couples have to watch their backs, even in the West, out of fear of vigilantes.
J: "...or female genital mutilation either."
K: That's approved in the Hadith and in Islamic law, and is widely practiced in Egypt.
J: "It certainly does not allow mothers to kill their 4-year old children in "rituals" either."
K: The story of Al-Khidr could be taken to suggest that it is permissible to kill a child who engages in "rebellion" and disbelief. Don't take my word for it, though. Read the Quran and read Ibn Kathir's tafsir of the passage (18:66-82).
J: "Muslims are obliged to practice "Defensive Jihad" which is the defence of their homelands from invaders. Terrorists believe that Islam is under attack and that they are engaging in this by attacking innocent civilians. Mainstream Islamic scholars regard attacks on US soldiers in Iraq as legitimate "Defensive Jihad" but attacks on the US homeland as illegitimate."
K: Do you regard attacks on U.S. soldiers in Iraq as legitimate?
J: ""Offensive Jihad" refers to attacking a country in an attempt to spread Islam. This form of Jihad is not mandatory. It must be ordered by a Caliph and that person does not exist today."
K: It is not mandatory for everyone, but it is mandatory for those who are called for it and who fit the qualifications. Secondly, the Caliph can order this, but it is not true that if there is no Caliph that it can't be called. No Caliph, no problem; it's academic or a moot point.
J: "Islam does not have any history of terrorism against civilians prior to recent history."
K: This is a major misconception. See this well-documented series by ex-Muslim Abul Kasem, where Muhammad orders or engages in terrorist attacks himself
http://www.islam-watch.org/AbulKasem/RootsTerrorism/RootsTerrorism0.htm
Indeed, Muhammad himself boasted that he had "been made victorious with terror."
J: "Religious minorities have historically been treated better under Islamic rule compared to Christian rule."
K: Sources please. What time frame are you talking about?
As for Egypt, a recent poll by PEW (not biased anecdotes, but a full-scale professional study) indicates that the vast majority of Egyptian Muslims today want the death penalty for apostates, stoning to death of adulterers, and cutting off the hand of thieves.
Now, let me ask, in your travels in Egypt, did you ever ask Muslims basic questions such as "Do you support the death penalty, or any penalty, for apostasy?" Why not ask them questions like that? Those questions about sharia (and jihad) are about the only things I'd be interested in asking them. Everything else would be trivial by comparison.
Most Muslims in Egypt want the death penalty for apostasy (see excerpts below, my emphasis added)
http://pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/muslims-around-the-world-divided-on-hamas-and-hezbollah/
http://pewglobal.org/files/2010/12/Pew-Global-Attitudes-Muslim-Report-FINAL-December-2-2010.pdf
“About eight-in-ten Muslims in Egypt and Pakistan (82% each) endorse the stoning of people who commit adultery; 70% of Muslims in Jordan and 56% of Nigerian Muslims share this view. Muslims in Pakistan and Egypt are also the most supportive of whippings and cutting off of hands for crimes like theft and robbery; 82% in Pakistan and 77% in Egypt favor making this type of punishment the law in their countries, as do 65% of Muslims in Nigeria and 58% in Jordan.
When asked about the death penalty for those who leave the Muslim religion, at least three-quarters of Muslims in Jordan (86%), Egypt (84%) and Pakistan (76%) say they would favor making it the law; in Nigeria, 51% of Muslims favor and 46% oppose it. In contrast, Muslims in Lebanon, Turkey and Indonesia largely reject the notion that harsh punishments should be the law in their countries. About three-quarters of Turkish and Lebanese Muslims oppose the stoning of people who commit adultery (77% and 76%, respectively), as does a narrower majority (55%) of Muslims in Indonesia.”
Some other stories from Egypt (there are many, many more):
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2005/10/10000-muslims-surround-a-coptic-church-in-alexandria.html
http://theegyptblog.blogspot.com/2005/10/coptic-nun-stabbed-see-pictures-below.html
Joseph McCarthy sez:
"...emphasizing every single negative action perpetrated by a Muslim, ... whether they had anything to do with Islamic teachings or not."
See this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_X8dhrzQCHY
(best see it soon as YouTube is receiving threats from defenders of Islam over MEMRI videos, and might remove it for their safety)
Joseph McCarthy, in your study of Islam, did you study this Islamic teaching? Yes / No.
"Joseph McCarthy" wrote:
From my research, mainstream Islam does not allow Christians living in Muslim countries to be physically harmed and does not allow terrorism against innocent civilians...
Islam does not have any history of terrorism against civilians prior to recent history...
.............................
Several posters—most notably Wellington and Kinana of Khaybar, have addressed "Joseph McCarthy's" meretricious assertions at some length.
I'm not going bother to parse this boatload of Taqiyya, except to note that "Joseph McCarthy" must have needed a very large shovel for so much crap.