Oregon Muslims explain Islam for you, raise more questions than they answer

Those who only read mainstream media sources certainly get an odd picture of unfolding events. First they read about a jihad plot, such as the one last week in Portland, in accounts that never mention that the perpetrator was Muslim. Then follow accounts attempting to account for his actions in ways that don't involve the Islamic texts and teachings that the perpetrator himself invoked to explain his actions -- in the Portland case, Mohamed Mohamud had a troubled childhood, his parents split up, leaving him distraught, etc. Then come stories like the one below, in which Muslim spokesmen respond to "criticism of Islam" that apparently has followed in the wake of the jihad plot, although such criticism never features in mainstream media accounts in any way except to be debunked, as below.

"Muslims respond to criticism of Islam stirred up by Portland bomb plot," by Nancy Haught for The Oregonian, November 30:

Friday's failed attempt to bomb Portland's Pioneer Courthouse Square has inspired plenty of malice on local blogs and in commentary, inflaming hatred and vilifying Islam. Anger, fear and misinformation have grown exponentially since 9/11, watered by the 24-7 news cycle and instant internet judgments. Suddenly, Oregon's not such a civil place anymore: Somebody tried to set off an explosion in our living room; somebody set fire to a mosque in Corvallis.

So here we go again: a Muslim attempts to mass-murder non-Muslims, and Muslims turn out to be the victims. In a sane world, Nancy Haught would be writing about how the Muslim community was working hard to prove its loyalty to American Constitutional values, instituting programs to teach against the understanding of Islam manifested by Mohamed Mohamud, etc. Instead, they're the victims, as always. Mainstream media journalists are drearily predictable in their readiness to retail this line. It is remarkable how it never seems to occur to any of them to ask even the most basic probing questions about what these poor victims actually intend to do on their side to try to prevent future Mohamed Mohamuds, and thereby head off this frightening "backlash."

Looking for balance, we turned to two Muslim leaders and a scholar about how the words of the Quran, the sacred text of Islam, are often quoted out of context to justify violence. After all, the word "Islam" shares a root with the Hebrew word "shalom" and means -- no matter what you hear or read -- "peace attained by submission to God."

No matter what you hear or read! This is the definitive word, right here in The Oregonian, people!

In any case, "peace attained by submission to God" is accurate, once one understands that that means the peace that will come to the world once Sharia is imposed. That peace involves the submission of the unbelievers to the Muslims, as per Qur'an 9:29, and is very much a political system, not just a religious one.

"There's no part of the Quran that says killing people is okay," says Kambiz GhaneaBassiri, professor of Islam at Reed College in Southeast Portland. But it's also not that simple.

Indeed not. There is, after all, "kill the pagans wherever you find them," which is repeated thrice in the Qur'an: 2:191, 4:89, and 9:5. There is "when you meet the unbelievers, strike at their necks" (47:4). Practically every day at Jihad Watch we see examples of Muslims who somehow misunderstand these verses as meaning that..."killing people is okay."

"The Quran gives permission to fight to those who have been wronged or persecuted, to those who have been driven unjustly from their homes," he says. "It allows killing - if it is justified -and imposes limits."

He is referring to Qur'an 22:39-40: "To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged; and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid. (They are) those who have been expelled from their homes in defiance of right, (for no cause) except that they say, 'our Lord is Allah.'"

In fact, the Quran instructs Muslims to live peacefully as long as their enemies are "inclined to peace." And the prophetic tradition of Islam forbids killing innocents - women, children or any living thing.

Here he is referring to Qur'an 8:61: "But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things)." Incidentally, that verse follows 8:60, which commands Muslims to "make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies."

In any case, Nancy Haught assumes that 8:61 means that Muslims should strive for peaceful coexistence with unbelievers, living with them in society as equals on an indefinite basis. Unfortunately, the Qur'an envisions something quite different; the enemy may be "inclined to peace," and then peace will be granted to him, as long as they pay the non-Muslim poll tax, the jizya, "with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued" (9:29).

Sayyid Qutb explains: "At the time when this surah was revealed, God instructed His Messenger to remain at peace with those groups who refrained from fighting him and the Muslims, whether they entered into a formal treaty with the Muslims or not. The Prophet continued to accept a peaceful relationship with unbelievers and people of earlier revelations until Surah 9 was revealed, when he could only accept one of two alternatives: either they embraced Islam or paid jizyah [a tax levied on non-Muslims, per Qur'an 9:29] which indicated a state of peace. Otherwise, the only alternative was war, whenever this was feasible for the Muslims to undertake, so that all people submit to God alone."

This is not the only understanding of the relationship between 8:61 and 9:29 among Muslims? Great. But it would have been refreshing if Kambiz GhaneaBassiri had simply offered an alternative one. Of course, maybe he didn't because he understood that it was just a newspaper article and that it was not the time or place to get into too much depth. Fine. I am inviting him to do so now, then. He can reach me at director[at]jihadwatch.org.

And as for Islam forbidding the killing of innocents, Islamic law prohibits the killing of women and children "unless they are fighting against the Muslims" ('Umdat al-Salik o9.10, cf. al-Mawardi, al-Akham as-Sultaniyyah, 4.2). And the concept of what constitutes an "innocent" is also disputed. Some Islamic clerics and leaders think no non-Muslim is innocent. It would have been helpful if Kambiz GhaneaBassiri had clarified who exactly he considered to be "innocent." He didn't.

The suggestion that Islam is a violent religion bent on the death of unbelievers casts a narrow, politicized view over mainstream Muslims, says Omar B. Shabbazz, a leader of the Muslim Community Center of Portland.

Omar B. Shabbazz is setting up a straw man. Islam is not a violent religion bent on the death of unbelievers. Islam, at least in terms of its traditional and mainstream teachings, is a violent religion bent on the subjugation of unbelievers.

He says he is happy to explain when people have the courage to ask him directly about Islam and violence. "I see it as a teachable moment," he says. He points to himself and his mosque in Northeast Portland, which has its roots in the African American community. "I tell them, 'This is the face of Islam in America.'"

But recent events have overshadowed Americans' pre-9/11 experience with worries that many Muslims are terrorists-in-waiting. Every religion has its zealots. Throughout history Islamic fanatics have ignored the moral principles of the Quran to seize and keep power, Shabbazz says.

"Jihad" is another often-politicized word from the Quran, contributing to the stereotype of Muslims who wage a holy war and accept human collateral damage without remorse. Jihad means "to struggle in the path of God." But it can refer to an outright war -- or to a spiritual struggle.

"The bigger meaning of jihad is the struggle within yourself, between obedience and disobedience," Shabbazz says. "To trust someone completely, you let go completely. That is the jihad state, to become the hand, the eyes, the feet that Allah uses." To ignore the inner jihad and proclaim that warfare is the only struggle misses the meaning of the sacred text, he says.

Actually, the primary meaning of jihad in the Qur'an is warfare against unbelievers; otherwise, why would there be a chapter of the Qur'an entitled "The Spoils of War," complete with instructions about how such spoils should be distributed? There are no "spoils of war" in a spiritual struggle. What kind of spiritual struggle instructs those who are undertaking it to kill anyone, as the Qur'an does in several places (again, 2:191, 4:89, 9:5, 47:4, etc.)?

References in the Quran to "unbelievers" often spark heated arguments, but the word itself does not refer to non-Muslims. The Quran acknowledges the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament as viable -though superseded -- scriptural traditions, says GhaneaBassiri of Reed. "Islam accepts Jews and Christians as 'people of the Book.' Unbelievers, as it is used in the Quran, means, literally, 'those who deny God.'"

Actually, not just superseded, but corrupted and illegitimate: "But the transgressors changed the word from that which had been given them" (2:59). "There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues: (As they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part of the Book; and they say, 'That is from Allah,' but it is not from Allah: It is they who tell a lie against Allah, and (well) they know it!" (3:78)

Also, those Christians who believe in the standard and mainstream doctrine of the divinity of Christ are labeled unbelievers in the Qur'an: "They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary" (5:72, cf. 5:17).

"There is no verse in the Quran that condones fighting any peaceful non-Muslim on the sole ground that he or she is a non-Muslim," says Wajdi Said, president and cofounder of the Muslim Educational Trust. If that were true, he adds, "what would explain the fact that religious minorities through 1,400 years of Muslim history not only survived, but also thrived and found freedom to practice their faiths under Muslim rule?"

Actually, they didn't thrive. Those communities slowly and steadily withered under the relentless pressure of the institutionalized subjugation mandated in Islamic law. See Bat Ye'or's The Decline of Eastern Christianity Under Islam.

Just another day in the mainstream media.

| 64 Comments
del.icio.us | Digg this | Email | FaceBook | Twitter | Print | Tweet

64 Comments

| Leave a comment

It seems that the citizens of Portland are being urged to take this advice:

The last transmission picked up from doomed American Airlines Flight 11 before it smashed into the North Tower of the World Trade Center, was of a hijacker, believed to be the ringleader Mohammed Atta.
He said: "Nobody move. Everything will be OK. If you try to make any moves, you'll endanger yourself and the airplane. Just stay quiet."

Kambiz says there are no words in Koran that says it is ok to kill.
Kambiz Goh Khordeh!
Goh in Farsi meand shit
Khordeh mean he ate! when you direct this phrase to an Iranian you are essentailly telling him to shut the f...up.
I will now google this colleg and will call this asshole my self.
m

Let's be fair,Oregonian.

How about a puff piece from the "Islamic fanatic" side of town?

Oh,snap.That would be "inflaming hatred and vilifying Islam"!


Un-freakin'-real......


Perhaps a new category of JW dhimmi diligence award should be instituted, for the greatest number of downright barefaced lies squeezed into a single paragraph.

"If that were true, he adds, "what would explain the fact that religious minorities through 1,400 years of Muslim history not only survived, but also thrived and found freedom to practice their faiths under Muslim rule?"

Thriving, are they? Like the Egyptian Coptic kids facinvg jail time because they threw stones at armed attackers? Like the Jewish population of Saudi Arabia? It's barefaced denails like this that make the most hostile to Islam. And no, Nancy, I should never have to apologise for hating an ideology that seeks to enslave everyone who doesn't subscribe to it.

Anger, fear and misinformation have grown exponentially since 9/11, watered by the 24-7 news cycle and instant internet judgments.

The instant Internet judgments game ended when Charlie Johnson went over to the Dark Side. Been reading JihadWatch for years, and I ain't seed nothing instant, there is only the heavily deliberated in here.

*** 9:29 ***

There is no verse in the Quran that condones fighting any peaceful non-Muslim on the sole ground that he or she is a non-Muslim.

Is this guy sleeping with Glenn Beck?

Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

*** Bukhari Vol 1 Bk 1 Nbr 6 ***

Islam accepts Jews and Christians as 'people of the Book.'

So then, Mohammed was not a Moslem?

Just issue orders to kill every Jew in the country.

*** 33:21 ***

Take your pick, Ms. Haught, your choice:

1) You are ignorant on the subject of which you write, and obtrusive to boot. Shame on you.

2) You know the score about what Islam and Moslems really are, but elide the facts you know to better fit your twisted goal. Shame on you.

yes. you do not need to appologixe. I for one born and raised a muslim, hate Islam more than cancer.
m

The idea of an inner spiritual struggle comes from an unreliable hadith in which Muhammed was purported to have said "You have returned from the lesser jihad to the greater jihad (the inner spiritual struggle)" This was after the battle at Tabuk.

The problem is...Muhammed never said that. There is one other ahadith in which Muhammed is purported to have mentioned the greater and lesser jihad, but again, it is from an unreliable hadith.

Muslims need to quit trying to pull this greater and lesser jihad stuff over the heads of non Muslims. It is simply not true. Not that truth has ever really been a concern of much of the Muslim community.

OT

The sight of women's breasts won't deter Islamists – they're obsessed with sex
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/praveenswami/100066570/the-sight-of-womens-breasts-wont-deter-islamists-theyre-obsessed-with-sex/

Denmark’s government is being called upon to employ a lethal new weapon in the fight against Islamist extremism: bare breasts.

No, I’m not making this up – and also deny outrageous suggestions that I’m looking for an excuse to tear myself away from the world-changing Wikileaks exposé. Peter Skaarup, the foreign policy spokesman of the Danish People’s Party, wants footage of topless women at beaches to be included in a video shown to prospective immigrants, in order to deter religious fundamentalists.

“Topless bathing probably isn’t a common sight on Pakistani beaches, but in Denmark it is still considered quite normal. I honestly believe that by including a couple of bare breasts in the movie, extremists may have to think twice before deciding to come to Denmark,” he said.

Friday's failed attempt to bomb Portland's Pioneer Courthouse Square has inspired plenty of malice on local blogs and in commentary, inflaming hatred and vilifying Islam.
.......................

Notice, there is no *malice* attributed to the plan to murder families with small children out to enjoy a *Christmas tree lighting ceremony*. The only *malice* is on the part of the irrational "Islamophobes" who are concerned about such matters.

More:

Anger, fear and misinformation have grown exponentially since 9/11, watered by the 24-7 news cycle and instant internet judgments.
.......................

All this means is that in the past people in Chicago, and Miami, and New York—not to mention Toronto, London, and Sydney—might never have learned about a Jihad bomb plot in Portland, Oregon at all. The story would have been covered in the Portland Oregonian, picked up briefly, perhaps, by the Seattle and San Francisco papers, and have warranted a one-time squib on page 11 in the LA Times.

The "24-7 news cycle" and the internet make it a lot easier to find and follow such stories, around the nation and around the world. It also makes it a lot easier to call up previous stories without visiting the Oregonian's microfiche library.

Even the marginally attentive will likely notice that the perpetrators of the Ft. Hood massacre in Texas, and the attempted SUV bombing in New York's Times Square, and the attempt to blow an airplane out of the skies over Detroit last Christmas Day seem to have somewhat similar motives.

In other words, it has become a lot easier to discern a pattern of increasing Jihad plots, around the nation and around the world.

More:

Suddenly, Oregon's not such a civil place anymore
.......................

Perhaps the concern should be that Oregon is "not such a civil place anymore" because someone could conceive of *mass murdering families out for holiday fun*. But I guess Nancy Haught finds *that* "civil" enough.

This kind of thing also happens in the UK.

There was, very recently, a BBC "Have Your Say" on the subject of "Is Christianity under attack?". Inevitably, the subject soon involved Islam and Muslims.

However, looking at the posts, when presenting points (with evidence):

1) Quoting specific Qur'an suras was criticised as "cherry-picking".

2) Quoting blocks of suras was criticised as "Quoting out of context".

3) Referring to the Qur'an, Sunnah and Hadiths collectively was, "Failing to recognise Islam's history and traditions".

4) Mentioning the above in conjunction with the word "Muslim" was "demonising 1.6 billion people world-wide".


Do the BBC and US MSM have a "script"?

Idiots!

I urge everyone to read the Qur'an.

If you have, you will recognize that when Muslims and their Quisling supporters say that there is nothing in the Qur'an that calls for the killing of innocent people, the people they are referring to are Muslim believers. Kaffir (that's us) are not considered people. Therefore, a Muslim can do ANYTHING to a kaffir (unbeliever) and not be sanctioned under Sharia law (an Islamic system of jurisprudence derived from the Qur'an, the aHadith and the Sira).

A crime against humanity is meaningless to a Muslim, UNLESS it is a crime against Muslims.

On page 222 (326 in the Arabic) of the earliest Muslim biography of Muhammad, he affirms that those who do not follow him will be slaughtered.

Abu jahl said to them: "Muhammad alleges that if you follow him you will be kings of the Arabs and the Persians. Then after death you will be raised to gardens like those of the Jordan. But if you do not follow him you will be slaughtered, and when you are raised from the dead you will be burned in the fire of hell." The apostle [Muhammad] came out to them with a handful of dust saying: "I do say that."

Yet another of the million or so factual analysis (with references anybody can double check for themselves) that Robert Spencer has done demonstrating that: what's on the page in the Koran is just exactly what the violent jihadists are carrying out, and just like they quote and say they're carrying out. And all the while mainstream media reports something different, as if from some alternative universe, quoting lying imams and Islamic apologists who always come up with the same distortions and untruths, counting on the fact that none of the investigating reporters will do any real investigating on their own -- and even simply pick up a Koran and see where they're getting it from!

Bernard Lewis says the overwhelming majority of uses of the word "jihad" in Islam's core texts are military in meaning

He writes on page 72 of his book The Political Language of Islam, that

...the overwhelming majority of classical theologians, jurists, and traditionalists [Muslim specialists in the Qur'an, hadiths, life of Muhammad, and Islamic law] ... understood the obligation of jihad in a military sense.
Lewis also writes, on page 31 of his book The Crisis of Islam, that
For most of the fourteen centuries of recorded Muslim history, jihad was most commonly interpreted to mean armed struggle for the defense or advancement of Muslim power.

IN CORE ISLAMIC TEXTS, MUHAMMAD SAYS YOUR LIVES AND PROPERTY ARE NOT SAFE FROM HIM UNLESS YOU BECOME A MUSLIM

In Sahih Bukhari, the most canonical hadith collection:

Volume 1, Book 2, Number 24:

Narrated Ibn 'Umar:

Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform all that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."

**********************************

Similarly in Sahih Muslim, a canonical hadith collection:

Book 031, Number 5917:

...Ali went a bit and then halted and did not look about and then said in a loud voice: Allah's Messenger, on what issue should I fight with the people? Thereupon he (the Prophet) said: Fight with them until they bear testimony to the fact that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his Messenger, and when they do that then their blood and their riches are inviolable from your hands but what is justified by law and their reckoning is with Allah.

The best award is to propagate this site any way possible.

Also,is there any way to improve this?:

Average Load Time for Jihadwatch.org
Very Slow (5.008 Seconds), 94% of sites are faster.

Note: Slow sites may be penalized by search engines.
(from Alexa.com)

And:

Age


18-24 Relative to the general internet population, 18-24 year olds are greatly under-represented at jihadwatch.org.

Confidence: high 25-34 Relative to the general internet population, 25-34 year olds are greatly under-represented at jihadwatch.org.

Confidence: high 35-44 Relative to the general internet population, 35-44 year olds are under-represented at jihadwatch.org.

Confidence: high 45-54 Relative to the general internet population, 45-54 year olds are over-represented at jihadwatch.org.

Confidence: high 55-64 Relative to the general internet population, 55-64 year olds are greatly over-represented at jihadwatch.org.

Confidence: high 65+

18-44 year olds stats need to be improved.

The alexa review section is chock full of horrid reviews.Even the positive reviews are a liitle wacky.
Please sign up today and write a nice review.I did.

Any ideas?

In core Islamic texts, Muhammad refers to help from terror, his right to booty, and his mission to all mankind, and says he is the final prophet (which, please notice, means that no one can ever surpass or amend his teaching)

In a canonical hadith collection, Sahih Muslim:

Book 4, Number 1062:

Abu Huraira reported that the Messenger of Allah [Muhammad] (may peace be upon him) said: I have been given superiority over the other prophets in six respects: I have been given words which are concise but comprehensive in meaning; I have been helped by terror (in the hearts of enemies): spoils have been made lawful to me: the earth has been made for me clean and a place of worship; I have been sent to all mankind and the line of prophets is closed with me.

On page 672 (992 in the Arabic) of the earliest Muslim biography of Muhammad, he says

...kill those who disbelieve in God.

In Sahih Bukhari, the most canonical hadith collection, Muhammad said,

"Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him."

Various other canonical hadiths attest that Muhammad called for death to those who leave Islam. That's why even today all the schools of Islamic law prescribe death for apostasy from Islam.

In the earliest Muslim biography of Muhammad, pages 511-517 (758-766 in the Arabic) we learn how in Khaybar Muhammad ordered the torture and beheading of a man in order to get hold of a treasure, and how that night Muhammad took into his private tent for consummation of "marriage" the tortured man's widow, whose father and other male relatives Muhammad had just killed:

Kinana b. al-Rabi', who had the custody of the treasure of the B. al-Nadir, was brought to the apostle who asked him about it. He denied that he knew where it was. A Jew came (Tabari says "was brought") to the apostle and said that he had seen Kinana going round a certain ruin every morning early. When the apostle [Muhammad] said to Kinana, 'Do you know that if we find you have it I shall kill you?' he said Yes. The apostle gave orders that the ruin was to be excavated and some of the treasure was found. When he asked him about the rest he refused to produce it, so the apostle [Muhammad] gave orders to al-Zubayr b. al-'Awwam, 'Torture him until you extract what he has,' so he kindled a fire with flint and steel on his chest until he was nearly dead. Then the apostle delivered him to Muhammad b. Maslama and he struck off his head in revenge for his brother Mahmud. [-- page 515 (763-764 in the Arabic)]
...The apostle took captives...among whom was Safiya d. Huyayy b. Akhtab who had been the wife of Kinana b. al-Rabi’ b. Abu’l-Huqayq, and two cousins of hers. The apostle chose Safiya for himself. [-- page 511 (758 in the Arabic)]
When the apostle married Safiya in Khaybar or on the way, she having been beautified and combed, and got in a fit state for the apostle by Umm Sulaym d. Milhan mother of Anas b. Malik, the apostle passed the night with her in a tent of his. Abu Ayyub, Khalid b. Zayd brother of B. al-Najjar passed the night girt with his sword, guarding the apostle and going round the tent until in the morning the apostle saw him and asked him what he meant by his action. He replied, ‘I was afraid for you with this woman for you have killed her father, her husband, and her people, and till recently she was in unbelief, so I was afraid for you on her account.’ They allege that the apostle said ‘O God, preserve Abu Ayyub as he spent the night preserving me.’ [-- page 516-517 (766 in the Arabic)]

All a person need do, in regard to the nature of Islam, is to look at a map of the world. Then the question is : How could Islam have spread so much? We must assume Islam is not much different than any other known religion, so it spread by patient preaching and proselytizing, relying on its own brilliance and charming qualities, and general attractiveness. Knowing this, then I'm relieved of a need to read Islamic holy scriptures just as I had no need to consult books of history.

The motivation behind self-defense is malice. This is an interesting proposition.

If a robber enters someone's home does the homeowner really care what motivated the robber, and his life history?

If a violent group seeks to wage a low intensity guerrilla war, with persistent individual attacks of extreme violence, is it really essential to know more than the ability to identify the group itself and its membership? Individuals can distance themselves from the group by renouncing their loyalty to such violent group. This is an individual choice of members. Just as a new political party can form, and compete with some other political party, so too can Muslims form some other group. They can call themselves former-Muslims and then give a new name to a new organization and craft a wholly new set of generally agreed upon principals, wholly free of the prescription to engage in violence.

Those who love individual liberty, as a group, are surely free to craft a collective self-defense strategy without the same being characterized as hate. The first step (again) is to deny legal recognition to any organization which has as its creed a prescription for violence.

The potential Muslim victims here are the Muslims that would seek to declare themselves former-Muslims. The threat to them is from remaining members of Islam, and it is a far greater threat than from any other source.

So here we go again: a Muslim attempts to mass-murder non-Muslims, and Muslims turn out to be the victims. In a sane world, Nancy Haught would be writing about how the Muslim community was working hard to prove its loyalty to American Constitutional values, instituting programs to teach against the understanding of Islam manifested by Mohamed Mohamud, etc. Instead, they're the victims, as always.

Is Islam so damned pathetic? It seems it needs to play the 'victim' because it is truly a pathetic excuse for a 'religion', not equivalent to any modern notion of religion, but perpetually stuck in reverse gear in the 7th century notions of 'acceptable' barbarism. Sick, pathetic!!

Religious minorities thriving?

This mans brainwashing deprived him of the most basic capacity to discern the actual and probably is asleep in his own fantasy world.
Not only have religious minorities not thieved in muslim territories but no one else has either,but for a few despots a the top of the food chain.
Exceptions to this rule have occured for only very brief periods of time. As in the case of the mafiosi, bandits or pirates, there is often a brief period of wealth and abundance but once the ill gotten gains are spent, things pretty much go down the hill from then on till the next extrotiion, theft or ransom.

@ Zulu
"The sight of women's breasts won't deter Islamists – they're obsessed with sex
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/praveenswami/100066570/the-sight-of-womens-breasts-wont-deter-islamists-theyre-obsessed-with-sex/

Denmark’s government is being called upon to employ a lethal new weapon in the fight against Islamist extremism: bare breasts"

Call me picky, but this is an extremely half-assed way to deal with the muslim immigration. As we all should know by now, from the islamic point of view, any female of the species that is not wearing a burqa and hijab is simply 'gagging for it" (in other words, is asking to be raped). I don't see how this is going to stop would-be muslim immigrants from staying away from Denmark.

Showing gay couples kissing to prospective muslim immigrants in Holland has not reduced homophobia and gay bashing. On the contrary.

I have a much better idea: why not show footage of topless prophet Mohammed, curse be upon him, with large mouth-watering breasts?

Yes, but you must remember that all the Muslim kid did was try to blow up hundreds of people. You non-Muslim American barbarians actually *wrote critical blogs* about the event and the ideology that inspired it. Which is worse? After all, as Muhammad said, 'Oppression [of Muslims]is worse than slaughter[of unbelievers]'.

Not even Muslims have thrived in Muslim countries, you say; only a few despots at the top.

I was in a Muslim country for a while, and thought there seemed little in Islam for the people. Their feeling that it was just great to be Muslim didn't seem to be backed up by anything concrete.

One day I witnessed a lowly (fairly lowly, struggling to make ends meet) Muslim man treat a Christian rudely for no reason at all. I watched in curiosity - with shame for the Muslim, who I admonished afterwards but who was unapologetic, and embarrassment for the Christian, who took it "well", that is, silently.

It stuck in my brain, although I was fairly ignorant at the time.

But now I see one of the powerful inbuilt growth mechanisms of Islam linked to that incident. When Muslims migrate to Western countries, they envision their reward to be that they can, instead of feeling lowly and poor as they did before, indulge fully in their sense of superiority over the kuffar, who in the fullness of time they will be able to lord it over...hundreds and thousands of us to rob, rape, insult or merely feel better than. They can all be little despots. And the really fun part is that they can cry "victim" at the same time.

It is tragic the way Islam works on the worst in human nature.

That was for wakingwest, actually.

once again, the name of the dhimmi journalist may change but the sickening apologizing message to muslimes and their religion of piss is the same!
so if it's not the ny times, it's the wapo or the oregonian....

let us stop wasting precious energy on trying to knock sense into these idiots (it ain't gonna happen) and let us concentrate on what the problem is:

how do we get rid of islam and its followers...
we did not ASK for this fight, but since it has been brought on.....let's rise to the ocasion!

to Nancy Haught: PLEASE STOP TRYING TO EXCUSE THE INEXCUSABLE! If you want to lecture people about how kind Islam is, send your article to the Ccpts in Egypt or the families of the Christians murdered in Pakistan, Indonesia and Afganistan because of their faith.

Thanks for those passages, traeh, from Ibn Ishaq's biography of Mohammed. I've come across them before but reading them again only increases my wonder that more Muslims don't see what a cruel, perverted jerk Mohammed was. What a contrast he is to, say, Jesus or Buddha.

I remain perplexed why anyone would admire Mohammed, let alone consider him the Model Man. But then if Muslims are prepared to play games with words and phrases (e.g., what constitutes an "innocent" person or what "inclined to peace" means), then I guess honoring a creep is not so surprising after all. Well, all totalitarian ideologies warp the brain and destroy the built-in crap detector we were born with. One must give up a part of his reason to accept any Total Belief System (as Hugh Fitzgerald regularly described Islam here at JW). Again it is apparent that while not all Muslims are evil, though many are, all Muslims are certainly confused.


"Ye (Muslims) are the best of peoples evolved for mankind, commanding virtue and forbidding vice and believing in God" Surah 3:110.

Ubermensch?

There is going to be a course called "What is Islam?" taught in a college in Oregon by Act! for America. How do I know? Cair (named an unindicted co-conspirator in a Hamas-funding conviction, banned by the FBI, and with many of its leaders in jail or deported on terror-related charges and a proponent for sharia law in the USA) made sure they announced it in their daily bulletin:

"CAIR: Anti-Muslim Hate Group Leader to Teach Islam at Oregon College

(SEATTLE, WA, 12/3/10) -- The Washington state chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR-WA) today called on an Oregon community college to replace a leader of an anti-Muslim hate group who is scheduled to begin teaching a course on Islam in January.

CAIR-WA reported that Barry Sommer, president of an Oregon chapter of the hate group ACT! for America, will teach a course called "What is Islam" at Lane Community College in Eugene, Ore. Sommer also produces a weekly local cable access program "Islam Today" on Comcast's CTV29. The contact e-mail for the program is "act4americaor@yahoo.com." His personal blog features one of the infamous Danish cartoons mocking Islam's Prophet Muhammad."

I'm assuming Mr Summer et al will be receiving a lot of hate mail. Brigitte Gabriel was trashed in the announcement too.

You may read it all here:
http://campaign.r20.constantcontact.com/render?llr=95acjidab&v=001ljJ4p7aX-nGsb3d12TXUvrF4RmLy-ngzvD40JLdaQIBdG1CaYh4VA9v_N0yt1cTuSISHzN7va8s1Ns9KJvPyqp5dIjiQXYA-R7Acxi6Zr289Y3pU1kChNW_ZzLwbIvdh44ebd2utntD-sQghAzNs3Q%3D%3D

I wrote Mr. Summer a letter of encouragement, it appears he'll need it.

"So here we go again: a Muslim attempts to mass-murder non-Muslims, and Muslims turn out to be the victims. In a sane world, Nancy Haught would be writing about how the Muslim community was working hard to prove its loyalty to American Constitutional values, instituting programs to teach against the understanding of Islam manifested by Mohamed Mohamud, etc. Instead, they're the victims, as always."

In a sane world there would be no Islam, no National Socialism and no Marxism-Leninism.

In a sane world there would be no supremacism and therefore no victims.

In a sane world persons would only submit to moral codes derived from a universal rational ethic principle.

In a sane world persons would be able to answer the ethical question, and realize, that he should act in a consistent way allowing other persons to live as persons without going beyond the conditions allowing himself to live as a person.

In a sane world there would be no organized religion. The relationship between a person and the Almighty would be direct and personal based upon the experience or revelation of the inexplicable and mystical sides of existence. Because the mystical is inexplicable there could be no sacred texts and no myths, they would be called poetry. Only personal devotion to revealed subjective truths would exist. But why try to impose your subjective truths upon others?

In a sane world there would be no Jihad and no Jihad Watch. ;-)

“Topless bathing probably isn’t a common sight on Pakistani beaches, but in Denmark it is still considered quite normal. I honestly believe that by including a couple of bare breasts in the movie, extremists may have to think twice before deciding to come to Denmark,” he said."

Skårups idea is counter productive. Seeing the Danish whores showing bare breasts will attract Muslim rapists in droves, just like shit attracts flies. Why do you think the Muslim Paradise is a brothel stuffed with willing young virgin whores?

Showing two gay men embracing and kissing is even worse. We don´t need more buggers. The whole idea was to make Muslims bugger off. ;-)

There is a distinction to be made between a God-given inborn moral imperative which is a kind of natural moral sensibility on the one hand, and something which philosophers call a principle of ethics. A principle of ethics can be shown to be ultimately derived from an existing product of the intellect, a systematic theology in most cases. A philosopher can call it a principle of ethics as though it has nothing to do with any religion, but upon examination such philosophical principles are derived from already existing theologies. I know it sounds like a quibble, but amongst philosophy afficionados it's a major theme. Food for thought.

Whoa! Ole Hartling does not mince his words!

Firstly, I know this may not be the best time or place to point out to you how ignorant and homophobic you are to refer to gay men as "buggers". You may not like us but we are the least of your worries. We are not going to blow you up or cut your head off for Allah.
Secondly, the idea of showing gay couples to the prospective muslim immigrants is to make them see how diverse and OPEN-MINDED the Dutch society is.
I would think that seeing that kind of images (gay couples kissing) would DISCOURAGE at least some of the stone age islamists from relocating to such "decadent" countries like Holland
As long as the Danish immigration authorities are really trying to discourage islamic fanatics from relocating to their country, they should try a different approach.

With respect, I think you miss the point---big time. Here's why: You assume that sanity means not doing or thinking foolish things. This is your error. One can be perfectly sane and be foolishly wrong, even egregiously foolishly wrong.

One can start from totally wrong premises and still be perfectly sane. Here's an example: In the medieval era virtually all intellectuals accepted the assessment of material things which Empedocles (5th century B.C.) put forwad, to wit, that ultimate reality is composed of four basic substances---fire, earth, air and water. Even great minds like Aristotle accepted this. Of course, this assessment is wrong but it provides complete evidence of how logical it was during the Middle Ages to think that if one properly rearranged the four elements he could produce gold or silver. Hence, the pseudo-science of alchemy, which was rooted in error but not in logic. Ditto for our contemporary world, except substitute other premises.

On one other major contention of yours I must also disagree. You aver that in a sane world there would be no organized religion. This hypothesis masquerading as an axiom cannot be sustained from a logical, rational point of view. Though an agnostic myself, I must vigorously combat the idea that religion is inherently illogical or indicative of any kind of insanity. Religion uses reason plus faith (philosophy uses reason alone and science uses reason plus tested observational methods) to substantiate its premises. Faith, which I personally don't have, is not rooted in illogic. It is metarational and not irrational. Religious skeptics rarely get this. Apparently you don't. Again I write with respect but I also ask you to reconsider.

Speaking as an Oregonian, Nancy Haught is a shill for the "glass half-full" lobby of social religiosity, but writes precious little regarding actual connection of doctrine and practice of a given faith.

Islam is Satan's attempt to take God's place as the almighty, and to seduce mankind to worship him. He has thus far succeeded in getting one third of mankind to worship him. This is Satan's character described by God's firstborn Son.
"You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies."
John 8:44

This explains jihad violence, and why they are so good at deception.

Dear Victor at Waterloo -- I agree with your latest comment, as I usually do (for whatever it matters). It's recognizable that ole hartling doesn't abhor all religion, but only religion based in some kind of holy scripture. He wouldn't touch scripture with a ten foot Pole. The man is remarkably abstemious. He also seems, from what I've seen in a few weeks of commenting, unsullied by any contact with references to Protestant authors. He does have a copy of the Roman Catholic Church canon law, however, which is odd. Very few Catholics have any interest or knowledge of that... I'm not saying he's this or that religious tradition. I honestly don't want to start a battle between denominations. It's not easy to avoid saying anything about the differing traditions, though. Enough said. PS - The man is so immaculate he won't even reference quotes from Islamic scripture.


"Faith, which I personally don't have."

If that's what you believe, I can't argue with you, but I'd like to make a clarification. I think you may be defining faith according to the following common definition. But, if you strike out the last phrase, which doesn't really belong, it just means belief or trust. Surely you believe or trust some things. If you knew God, you would trust him.

Faith: belief or trust: belief in, devotion to, or trust in somebody or something, especially without logical proof

The Green Leftist apologists of Islam have not benefitted from sucking up to Muslims at least here:

"The police in Rotterdam have arrested a man on a charge of having threatened the daughter of leftwing Green (GroenLinks) party leader Femke Halsema.

The 35 year old man, as has now been made known, was arrested on Tuesday. He threatened Halsema in September via twitter.com, under the name of allah-u-akbar. He also threatened Labour (PvdA) leader Job Cohen and centre-left D66 leader Alexander Pechtold, the police said Friday.

The suspect appeared on Friday before the investigating judge, who decided to remand him in pre-trial custody for 14 days. A further investigation will be carried out into the suspect. When this is completed, the Public Prosecutor's Office will decide how the case will be concluded.

Last month, it was made known that Halsema took her children away from the 'black school' in Amsterdam which they had been attending. It is not clear whether that decision was related to the threats.

Halsema sent her twins to a school with mostly black and Islamic children in Amsterdam-Oost for idealistic reasons [Hmmmm... doesnt pay to be too "ideaslistic"]. "They have now gone to another school. That is better for their welfare. Children are not a social experiment. For these reasons, I do not want to say anything, it is a matter of the privacy of my children," said Halsema last month in De Telegraaf newspaper."
http://www.nisnews.nl/public/041210_1.htm

Thank you for your reply, ronmorgen. Yes, I do indeed believe or trust in some things. For instance, I believe the Pittsburgh Steelers have a good shot at winning an unprecedented seventh Super Bowl and I trust my closest friends not to betray me. But this kind of belief or trust goes to the heart of everyday life and the here and now.

With respect to ultimate, metaphysical issues, I find it exceedingly more difficult to have belief or trust (or faith) in assertions which are completely out of the ordinary, for instance that a Jewish carpenter from some two thousand years ago was God personally present on earth come to redeem man of his sins by dying in human form for him, or that a late 2nd millennium Jewish leader by the name of Moses received ten specific instructions about human behavior from a transcedent deity on top of a mountain called Sinai, or that a seventh-century Arab merchant was the last and greatest of the prophets.

As the laste Carl Sagan observed, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Believing that the Steelers will win another Super Bowl or trusting that my closest friends will not betray me hardly equal faith in the kind of ultimate claims by others which I have already mentioned. Thus, I cannot, I will not, believe in ultimate assessments about ultimate reality which are put forward as the way of things. Besides, such assessments are invariably accompanied by the use of some kind of fear---believe this or else. Speaking only for myself, this is unacceptable because a rational mind should have the right to be wrong about ultimate matters without fear of punishment for deciding wrongly. Ordinary beliefs and trusts are of a different make-up, a better make-up I would argue.

I think you missed my indication of sarcasm ;-)

I just could not resist the temptation of a little word play in the final paragraph. Hope you can forgive me.

I have nothing against gay persons, not even gay Muslims. They are often in opposition to Islam. Some of my best and dearest friends are gay. My only critique is that many gays define themselves primarily based on their sexuality. Sexuality is neither a qualification or disqualification. However important it might be, a persons sexual orientation should never be the most important aspect of his or hers personality. We are all persons, equal in obligations and rights.

Many gays are witty and creative persons. Some years ago, walking along the pavement with one of my gay friends, we passed a young couple embracing and kissing wildly. My friend turned around and shouted: “Perverse heterosexual swine!” I am still laughing every time I think of this episode, although it happened two decades ago.

Hope this clarification reestablished my credentials?

Equally respectful I have taken notice of your objections but regret that it is after bedtime here in Europe. When I wake up I will devote my time and energy to clarify my ontological position.

In the meantime I will let the agnostic spirit of Albert Einstein do some preparatory work for me:

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."

"The further the spiritual evolution of mankind advances, the more certain it seems to me that the path to genuine religiosity does not lie through the fear of life, and the fear of death, and blind faith, but through striving after rational knowledge."

I am not in complete agreement with Einstein, but he is on the right track.

Organized religion is one of the main things functioning as a social glue holding together and strengthening a society. You or I, as individuals, may or may not partake in the benefits of organized religion, but one shouldn't try to impose one's personal proclivities on others. And certainly, when suggesting and promoting policies designed to strengthen a society in the midst of a clash of civilizations, it's sheer idiocy to promote a notion that the diminishing of the prevalence of organized religion would help us in the struggle.

"Is this guy sleeping with Glenn Beck?"

Not sure what you mean by this comment. If some of you think that Glenn Beck is unaware of the Islamic Supremacists movement, then I think you are wrong. He is very much aware but I think he's seeing the immediate danger.

The progressives who are in power in the WH and congress are making things economically difficult. I think its a matter of priority at this point. Progressive are posing a much more immediate threat in their capabilities, with Islamicists a close second. I think GB's priority is making sure we have a good groundwork of people with the values and capabilities to see that this country does not perish due to those two forces.

The threats are very real. If you don't believe so its only because you are a party to those people or are rich enough to hopefully ride out whatever happens.

To speak the truth about the criminal, evil, and demonic elements of Islam is not "vilifying Islam". It is stating the facts about Islam. To speak the truth about perverted, child-molesting, and murderous Muslims is not "vilifying Muslims". It is merely stating the facts about these perverse, child-molesting, and murderous Muslims.

The criminal, evil, and demonic elements of Islam are despicable. The perverse, child-molesting, and murderous Muslims are despicable. Muslims who deny the evil and criminal elements of Islam are either purely ignorant about it or they are shameless liars.

It is not "vilifying Islam or Muslims" when people point out the evil and criminal elements of Islam and of criminal and murderous Muslims. It is a matter of fact, not an act of vilification.

Nonetheless, Allah/God ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allah ), whose name has been hijacked and demonized by Muhammad, is not to be blamed for all that is criminal, perverse, and evil in Islam, and for all the perverse, criminal, and hateful preaching and evil acts of certain Muslims - both clerics and non-clerics.

I missed the point and mistook your sarcasm for something else. I am sorry Ole Hartling.
You are absolutely right, of course. I couldn't agree with you more. And I am not being sarcastic...
Cheers!

Thank you, Wellington.

Robert notes early on in this report: "In a sane world, Nancy Haught would be writing about how the Muslim community was working hard to prove its loyalty to American Constitutional values..." and then pens an instructive and illuminating refutation of the Muslim scholar’s assertions.
However, I think the key fallacy here is that any Muslim community can swear loyalty to American Constitutional values and still remain faithful (literally) to Islam. If the Constitution and the values exhibited in it are an abomination to Allah – they are, after all, man-made and do not derive from Allah, and certainly don’t reflect Sharia values, the Koran says so – then Muslims can’t logically uphold them as values. It matters not how “loyal” “moderate” Muslims are to the Constitution, whether they’re civilians or in the military; one can’t maintain the dichotomy in perpetuity. Something must give.

One must eventually dominate: either the Muslim repudiates Islam and becomes an apostate, or he accepts the code of the Koran undiluted by a fealty to such “alien” notions of individual rights, and becomes a potential Major Hassan. One can’t have one’s Islam and compartmentalize it, too. One side must be the eventual victor and a guide for one’s actions.

Islam is an insidious creed that can worm its way into the cleanest mind and corrupt any rationality one might claim. Islam and Constitutional values are antithetical. On a personal level, it can lead to moral schizophrenia; on a social level, it can lead to murder. It’s one way or the other; there is no practicable middle course.

"what would explain the fact that religious minorities through 1,400 years of Muslim history not only survived, but also thrived and found freedom to practice their faiths under Muslim rule?"
By paying the Jizya (sic), the tax on dhimmi's. (Oh, look up how freely those religions were allowed to express themselves - sex offenders in this country have more liberty.)
Figure this out. With a greater population paying the tax, the more the sludge-gutted pedophiles and pederastic pashas had to indulge in.
"If this be 'blasphemy' so be it.
The murderous marauders could always count on a segment of the population to "revert" to Islam (the pollitically correct are doing so in this country by the droves - often called social climbing).
Again, for the math-midgets; look at the numbers. Dracma's in - liberty out.

The so-called Religion of Peace is more about violence than anything but "peace" when you count the number of times the words KILL, SLAY and DEATH appears in the Qur'an. According to the searchable database of the University of Southern California Center for Muslim-Jewish Engagement
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/ here are the results along with the verses quoted in Sahih Bukhari (complete collection, Sahih Muslim (complete collection, Sunan Abu-Dawud (partial collection)and Malik's Muwatta (complete collection:

The query [kill] generated the following matches:
Translations of the Qur'an

002.054 002.091 002.191 003.183 004.029 004.089 004.091 004.092 004.157 005.027 005.028 005.095 006.140 006.151 008.030 012.009 012.010 017.031 017.033 018.006 020.040 026.003 026.014 027.021 028.009 028.019 028.033 029.024 040.026 040.028 060.012
The word Kill appears 31 times

The query [slay] generated the following matches:
Translations of the Qur'an

002.054 002.085 002.087 002.191 003.021 003.183 004.089 004.091 005.027 005.028 005.070 006.140 006.151 007.127 008.017 008.030 009.005 009.111 012.009 012.010 017.031 017.033 020.040 025.068 026.014 027.021 028.009 028.019 028.020 028.033 029.024 040.025 040.026 040.028
The word Slay appears 34 times

The query [death] generated the following matches:
Translations of the Qur'an

002.019 002.028 002.056 002.094 002.095 002.133 002.164 002.180 002.243 002.258 002.259 003.143 003.154 003.156 003.168 003.185 003.193 004.015 004.018 004.078 004.097 004.100 004.159 005.003 005.106 006.061 006.093 006.162 007.037 007.133 007.158 008.006 008.050 009.052 009.116 010.056 010.104 011.007 012.101 014.017 015.023 015.072 016.065 016.070 017.075 018.006 018.020 021.008 021.035 023.080 023.099 025.003 026.116 029.057 029.063 030.019 030.024 030.050 032.011 033.016 033.019 033.023 034.014 035.009 037.059 039.042 040.011 040.068 044.008 044.020 044.035 044.056 045.005 045.021 045.026 047.020 047.027 050.019 050.043 053.044 056.060 057.002 057.017 062.006 062.007 062.008 063.010 067.002 067.015 069.027 072.019 074.047
The word Death appears 92 times

The query [fight] generated the following matches:
Translations of the Qur'an

002.190 002.191 002.193 002.244 002.246 003.111 003.153 003.167 003.172 004.074 004.075 004.076 004.077 004.084 004.090 004.094 004.095 005.024 008.019 008.039 008.065 008.074 008.075 009.005 009.012 009.013 009.014 009.029 009.036 009.081 009.083 009.086 009.088 009.111 009.122 009.123 016.110 022.039 033.018 033.020 033.025 047.004 048.016 048.022 049.009 059.011 059.012 059.014 060.008 060.009 061.004 073.020
The word fight appears 52 times

Please remember that throughout time despotic tyrants have always called for "peace" such as the famous cold-war saying. "Peace to a Communist means the absence of resistance to Communism." How much different is that to Islam meaning submission?


"Religion uses reason plus faith (philosophy uses reason alone and science uses reason plus tested observational methods) to substantiate its premises. Faith, which I personally don't have, is not rooted in illogic."

Thank you for defending the Christian/Catholic position. It makes me wonder what stops you from making a leap of faith. After all, it's not blind faith. I wonder too if you are aware of the encyclical written by Pope John Paul II some years ago. It's entitled "Fides et Ratio", which means "Faith and Reason". See the link below.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_15101998_fides-et-ratio_en.html

@ Wellington:

Besides, such assessments are invariably accompanied by the use of some kind of fear---believe this or else. Speaking only for myself, this is unacceptable because a rational mind should have the right to be wrong about ultimate matters without fear of punishment for deciding wrongly.

Exactly right. No one may punish another for being wrong in their 'ultimate' beliefs, provided that error does no harm to another, for then it is entirely an internal matter and nobody's business but the believer's. Religions which punish 'unbelievers' got this very badly wrong, which may be one of the grievously serious causes of much war around the globe, especially in the Islamic world (and its unlucky abutters).

Want peace? Dismantle religious power to punish, Islam first. Pretty simple, no?

I appreciate your reply to Wellington:

"It makes me wonder what stops you from making a leap of faith. After all, it's not blind faith."

Indeed! If God is reason (logos) and love (agape) what prevents Wellington from making the leap to the Catholic faith?

The answer to that question would be most illuminating.

And thank you for the link to Pope John Paul II encyclical Letter "Fides et Ratio" from 1998. I will use it for further reflection on the matter.

As material for a discussion about the Catholic view on Eros/sex contra the Islamic view I have been studying Benedicit XVIs Encyclical Letter "Deus Caritas Est" from 2005. Especially the chapter: "Eros" and "Agape" - difference and unity. It is a pleasure to read a text by a Church leader who is also a scholar and capacity in philosophical thinking.

Link:

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20051225_deus-caritas-est_en.html

I was just about to write my reply to Wellington when I saw your interesting and most relevant comment. Thank you for that.

Thank you for your reply, Living Stone. Though not religious myself, like ALL the Founding Fathers of America, some of whom, though not all as is often falsely alleged, were skeptics, at least in the sense that they did not think Jesus divine, I think religion is an important part of not only private but public life. Infused into the body politic there should be an ethical code based on enlightened religions, for instance Judaism and Christianity. Islam, by contrast, has almost nothing about it that is enlightened and its ethical code is that of an Orwellian tyrant. And look at western Europe. It has lost its way and a large part of this is due to the fact that it has lost religion.

A society as a whole needs a religious base. Yes, there are individuals within a particular well functioning society who personally don't require religion in their life, but most do and the society as a whole does. That's why, even though I am not religious, I remain fully supportive of enlightend religions in sundry societies. The two that work best with democracy, I believe, are Christianity and Judaism, and thus I support them all the more because of this.

Most people have religious faith. I do not. It's almost as though one is born with a religious gene or isn't. I don't deny that God exists but my route in exploring ultimate reality is a purely philosophical one and not both a theological and philosophical approach. There are, too, a few things I don't like about religion, one of which I already mentioned, i.e., the use of fear to compel belief. Every religion does this, the monotheistic religions even more so than the polytheistic ones. Another example of something I find unacceptable is peculiar to Christianity and that is the doctrine of original sin. Every decent legal system does not visit the sins of the parents upon their progeny. But this is exactly what original sin does. If one's grandfather was in the SS, it would be deeply wrong to punish the grandchild for this. Ditto for Adam and Eve and what ensues afterwards.

But these private misgivings remain my own and, while I will occasionally explain them to others, it matters not a wit to me if anyone accepts them. Ultimately I have to answer to my own conscience. Thanks again for your input and know well that there are few non-religious people out there who are more a friend of religion (except Islam of course) than myself. Take care.

Dear Robert: Is something wrong with me? I read the Koran and I see a book that claims to be absolutely perfect and divine - so perfect that it has transcended any need to change, and anyone who says otherwise is an absolutely evil person. I also read that this book clearly advocates premeditated cold blooded murder of (by any sane measure)totally innocent people. It also states that more than half of all human beings on this planet are genetically and spiritually inferior to the other lucky less-than-half superior humans. But I don't see you saying that my assumptions about the Koran are correct - you seem to hint that possibly this book of murder and revenge and genetic superiority might be read in such a light so as to see that these murderous things I see are not really there. Tell me, is or is not this book called the Koran intrinsically and irrevocably unjust and murderous or is it not? Many of us are waiting to find out. Why will you not clearly inform us? As always, we wait...

Sorry for my delayed reply.

“I think you miss the point---big time. Here's why: You assume that sanity means not doing or thinking foolish things. This is your error. One can be perfectly sane and be foolishly wrong, even egregiously foolishly wrong.”

You got a valid point here. To be “sane” is not the same as being “rational”. Sane is defined negatively as lack of mental illness, as the opposite of “insane”. Sane people are just “normal people”, what I call “persons”, in principle able to make ethical judgments and therefore also responsible for their actions.

Rhetorically I translated the concept of “a sane world” as equal to the concept of “a rational world”, a world where people make decisions based on rationality, and not irrational belief. My excuse for this inaccurate use of the language is how the expression “in a sane world” is used in Roberts text:

"So here we go again: a Muslim attempts to mass-murder non-Muslims, and Muslims turn out to be the victims. In a sane world, Nancy Haught would be writing about how the Muslim community was working hard to prove its loyalty to American Constitutional values, instituting programs to teach against the understanding of Islam manifested by Mohamed Mohamud, etc. Instead, they're the victims, as always."

So what Robert is saying is that “in a sane world” Muslims should put submission to secular values above their religious belief and obligations as Muslims. In other words they should be rational enough to realize that democracy is not a secular religion but an order based upon values rooted in rationality. No religion demands democracy or submission to its basic ethical principle of political equality.

The main reason Christianity, especially in its Lutheran evangelical version, is compatible with democracy (and Islam not), is because in its own teachings it demands separation of politics and religion (Luthers two regiments), and because it brings no political messages to the believers and cannot be made the foundation of any society. A society which tries to implement the radical demands from Jesus preaching on the mountain has abrogated itself. An army or police force demanded to turn the other cheek and love their enemies, and judges who should not judge, cannot exist in this world. As the Danish Christian philosopher Søren Kierkegaard said: “Christianity is not a social norm.” But Islam is, it is nothing but, because politics and religion is one and the same.

In the preaching of Jesus there is an implicit rebellion against any attempt to make political institutions and powers divine, not found in the preaching of Muhammad. In Islam the rebellion is not against those who believe in divine laws, but against those who are not sufficiently energetic to implement Islamic law. It was Martin Luther who manifested this implicit rebellion against religion as a political power.

So Robert himself used the term “in a sane world” almost as equivalent with “in a rational world”. And I played along on this line rhetorically.

Along the “sanity line” you claim:

“One can start from totally wrong premises and still be perfectly sane. Here's an example: In the medieval era virtually all intellectuals accepted the assessment of material things which Empedocles (5th century B.C.) put forwad, to wit, that ultimate reality is composed of four basic substances---fire, earth, air and water. Even great minds like Aristotle accepted this. Of course, this assessment is wrong but it provides complete evidence of how logical it was during the Middle Ages to think that if one properly rearranged the four elements he could produce gold or silver. Hence, the pseudo-science of alchemy, which was rooted in error but not in logic. Ditto for our contemporary world, except substitute other premises.”

But can you also start from totally wrong premises and still be perfectly rational? This empirical sentence contains a contradiction in terms, but also a fundamental limitation that applies to all science. When you chose a premise your choice is not entirely based upon rationality, therefore it is called “scientific intuition”. The only way to determine if your premise is true or false is to test the hypothesis based on the premise in the empirical world.

If the predictions made on the hypothesis can be verified through many observations under different conditions the premise is probably true, but you can never be absolutely sure. That's why all scientific theories are temporary, or theories not yet falsified. Theories that in principle cannot be falsified are simply not scientific theories.

So instead of saying: “One can start from totally wrong premises and still be perfectly sane”, you should say, that you can never know if an empirical premise is true or false when you chose it, and even after it has been verified experimentally you can never be sure that it is absolutely true, no matter how rational or sane you are.

Science is a trial-and-error game, and using the scientific method it will over time produce still better theories describing the laws of the physical world. To start this process you have to make some assumptions, not based on science or observation but on intuition, like the old Greeks did when they formulated the hypothesis that all matter consist of four basic elements in different mixtures.

And now to your main point of critique:

“On one other major contention of yours I must also disagree. You aver that in a sane world there would be no organized religion. This hypothesis masquerading as an axiom cannot be sustained from a logical, rational point of view. Though an agnostic myself, I must vigorously combat the idea that religion is inherently illogical or indicative of any kind of insanity. Religion uses reason plus faith (philosophy uses reason alone and science uses reason plus tested observational methods) to substantiate its premises. Faith, which I personally don't have, is not rooted in illogic. It is metarational and not irrational. Religious skeptics rarely get this. Apparently you don't. Again I write with respect but I also ask you to reconsider.”

What I am saying is, that in a rational world there would be no organized religion. It is neither a hypothesis or an axiom, it is more like an utopian thought. But people are not rational, their actions are not determined by rationality alone but a mixture of emotions, desires, hopes, wishful thinking and rationality. We can we more or less rational that's all.

Religion, or rather what religion claim to be true, is not based on rationality. To be rational means only to hold for true what your arguments imply. You say that religion uses reason plus faith to substantiate its premises. I say Faith is the irrational element in religion, just as “scientific intuition” is an irrational element in science. The difference is that weak axioms in science may be replaced by better ones through experiments, but no similar method exist to improve the axiom of faith. You either have faith or you don't. And you can only believe in one religion at the time. You cannot be a Christian Muslim or a Christian Jew, but logically there can only exist one monotheistic religion. So how do you chose between the existing three?

Obviously such a choice is not based on rationality but on what you feel is right for you. You say: “Faith, which I personally don't have, is not rooted in illogic. It is metarational and not irrational.” I don't know what the word “metarational” means. Without an explicit definition it could mean almost anything just like the word God. So you are actually saying that religion is rationality plus “metarationality”. But “metarationality” cannot be a rational or consistent concept, otherwise you, assuming you are a rational person, would hold it for true and therefore be a theist and not an agnostic.

You are right about one thing: I don't get it. I think you are making a mistake here, a mistake of logic, and I kindly and respectfully ask you to reconsider your position.

You either have faith or you don't. And you can only believe in one religion at the time. You cannot be a Christian Muslim or a Christian Jew, but logically there can only exist one monotheistic religion. So how do you chose between the existing three?

Ole, though none of these are my beliefs, I being an agnostic-secularist-mystic, I'd have to respectfully disagree that a person "cannot be a Christian Muslim or a Christian Jew", if my Bahai friends are correct. They believe that you do not drop your old beliefs, but merely tack on one more in a kind of evolutionary hierarchy called "progressive revelation", so that in the end you believe in all of them, without sacrificing any along the way. I know this is illogical, but then what part of religion isn't? Just my 'agnostic' two cents' worth. :-)

Thank´s for your comment:

"I know this is illogical, but then what part of religion isn't? Just my 'agnostic' two cents' worth. :-)"

That was exactly my point.

Thank you and thanks to Battle_of_Tours as well for replying. Much on this plate to be sure. I would only note that the term "metarational" refers to the possibility of the mind comprehending things beyond reason. Now, perhaps this is not possible (or even nonsense) but then again perhaps it is. Certainly religious folks think this can occur (e.g., Credo ut intelligam). I remain agnostic on this issue as I do on religion in general. It was my specific point, however, to convey that having faith is not, ipso facto demonstrative of irrationality as you assert it is. I concede you may be right but I don't know you're right and am inclined to think you are not.

I'm also not quite in agreement with your contention that you can never be absolutely sure of anything even by way of the scientific method. Yours is a Humean skepticism which, I acknowledge, could be the case but I think it more likely that it isn't. Certain things are knowable I would argue. For instance, the strong and weak forces, electromagneticism and gravity. Hey, just because the truth is elusive doesn't mean we can never grasp it.

Thank you for your comments. You argue well and I have appreciated this exchange.

Leave a comment

NOTE: The Comments section is provided in the interests of free speech only. It is mostly unmoderated, but comments that are off topic, offensive, slanderous, or otherwise annoying stand a chance of being deleted. The fact that any comment remains on the site IN NO WAY constitutes an endorsement by Jihad Watch, or by Robert Spencer or any other Jihad Watch writer, of any view expressed, fact alleged, or link provided in that comment.







Not Peace But A Sword by Robert SpencerDid Muhammad Exist? The Muslim Brotherhood in America, by Robert SpencerIslamophobia: Thoughtcrime of the Totalitarian FutureMuslim Persecution of Christians, by Robert Spencer Obama and IslamThe Ground Zero Mosque: Second Wave of the 9/11 Attacks
The Complete Infidel’s Guide to the Koran


Stealth Jihad


The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam


The Truth About Muhammad


What they’re saying about Robert Spencer
“My comrade-in-arms, my pal, my buddy.”
Oriana Fallaci

“Robert Spencer incarnates intellectual courage when, all over the world, governments, intellectuals, churches, universities and media crawl under a hegemonic Universal Caliphate’s New Order. His achievement in the battle for the survival of free speech and dignity of man will remain as a fundamental monument to the love of, and the self-sacrifice for, liberty.”
Bat Ye’or

“Robert Spencer is indefatigable. He is keeping up the good fight long after many have already given up. I do not know what we would do without him. I appreciate all the intelligence and courage it takes to keep going despite the appeasement of the West.”
Ibn Warraq

“America's most informed, fearless, and compelling voice on modern jihadism.”
Andrew C. McCarthy, Senior Fellow at National Review Institute

“Robert Spencer is the leading voice of scholarship and reason in a world gone mad. If the West is to be saved, we will owe Robert Spencer an incalculable debt.”
Pamela Geller, Atlas Shrugs

"The consummate Islam critic and expert." — Bruce Bawer

“Over the years, we have become friends, and I have received his assistance on several pieces of legislation I proposed.”
Former Congressman Tom Tancredo

“Few people are capable of applying scholarship, analytical reasoning, and objectivity to their topic -- while simultaneously being readable and witty -- as can Robert Spencer.”
Raymond Ibrahim

“A national treasure...The acclaimed scholar of Islam.”
Frank Gaffney, Center for Security Policy

“I am indeed honored to call him my friend.”
Brad Thor, novelist

“A top American analyst of Islam....A serious scholar...I learn from him.”
Daniel Pipes

“A brilliant scholar and writer.”
Douglas Murray

"One of my best teachers."
Ashraf Ramelah, Voice of the Copts

“Thank God there’s at least one man with balls left in the West.”
Kathy Shaidle, Five Feet of Fury

“I read people like [Mark Steyn] and Bob Spencer and the rest of them, and I say, ‘Boortz, you’re pretending you’re an author. These people really are. They really write some entertaining, some standup stuff.’”
Neal Boortz

“Robert Spencer is the Stephen King of Jihad.”
Chris Gaubatz, Muslim Mafia

“Armed with facts and fearlessness, Spencer stands up for Western civilization.”
Michelle Malkin

“Widely read in conservative foreign policy circles.”
New York Times

“Widely read in many quarters in Washington.”
Washington Post

“A canny operative who likely has the inside track on the State Department’s Middle East affairs desk should the tea party win the White House.”
New York Magazine

“A hero of the American right.”
Karen Armstrong

"The leading anti-Islamic intellectual in the United States....The go-to Islam expert for the right wing."
Salon Magazine

“Robert Spencer is an Edward Said turned upside down.”
Stephen Suleyman Schwartz

“One of the nation's most notorious Islamophobes.”
Hamas-linked CAIR

"Geller and Spencer are probably the most important propagandizing Islamophobes in the world. These people's voices speak very loudly — not just here in the United States but overseas."
Heidi Beirach, Southern Poverty Law Center

“Satanic ignoramus.”
Khaleel Mohammed

“The Likud anti-Christ.”
Dar al-Hayat newspaper (Saudi Arabia)

“Zionist Crusader, missionary of hate, counter-Islam consultant.”
Al-Qaeda’s Adam Gadahn, “Azzam the American”



Follow me on Twitter
facebook islam
RSS feed

Monthly Archives



Donate
Jihad Watch is a 501 (c) 3 organization. Donations are tax-deductible.


Robert Spencer debates on The Quran Teaches WarVideo: Robert Spencer on CPAC Breitbart News
SIOAFreedom Defense InitiativeJihad Watch VideosAmerican Freedom Law Center
Note: Listing here does not imply endorsement of every view expressed at every linked site.

» ACT for America
» Always on Watch
» American Center for Democracy
» American Coptic Association
» American Council for Kosovo
» American Freedom Alliance
» American Freedom Law Center
» American Islamic Forum for Democracy
» American Sheepdogs
» American Thinker
» Americans Against Hate
» Americans for Legal Immigration
» Amerisrael
» Amillennialist Contra Mundum
» Annaqed
» A New Dark Age Is Dawning
» Answering Islam
» Answering Muslims
» Anti-CAIR
» Apostates of Islam
» Aramaic Broadcasting Network (ABN)
» Armies of Liberation
» Assyrian International News Agency
» Atlas Shrugs
» Atour — The State of Assyria
» Australian Islamist Monitor
» Biafra Nation
» Blazing Cat Fur
» Bosch Fawstin
» Brad Thor
» Brussels Journal
» CAIR Watch
» Campus Watch
» Caroline Glick
» Christians Under Attack
» Citizen Warrior
» Coalition for the Defense of Human Rights
» Conservative Nation News
» Copts.com
» Creeping Sharia
» Daniel Pipes
» David Horowitz Freedom Center
» The David Project
» David Thompson
» David Yerushalmi Law
» D. C. Watson
» Dearborn Underground
» DEBKAfile
» Dhimmitude.org
» Dry Bones
» Ellis Washington Report
» Europe News
» Eye On Islam
» Ezra Levant
» Faith Freedom International
» Father Zakaria
» Federale
» Five Feet of Fury
» Foundation for Democracy in Iran
» Free Congress Foundation
» The Free Copts
» Freedom Defense Initiative
» FrontPage Magazine.com
» Geert Wilders
» Genocide1915.info
» Global Research in International Affairs (GLORIA) Center
» History of Jihad
» Hizb ut-Tahrir Watch
» Honest Reporting
» Honor Killings
» Human Rights Congress for Bangladesh Minorities
» India Defence
» Infidel Blogger’s Alliance
» Infidels Are Cool
» The Intelligence Summit
» International Analyst Network
» International Free Press Society
» Internet Haganah
» The Investigative Project on Terrorism
» IOwnTheWorld.com
» IranPressNews
» Iran va Jahan
» Islam Review
» Islam Speaks
» Islam Versus Europe
» Islam Watch
» Islamic Terrorism in India
» Islamist Watch — Middle East Forum
» Israel Matzav
» JihadOnBuddhists.org
» Kejda Gjermani
» KRSI: Radio Sedaye Iran
» Liberated
» Logan's Warning
» Looking At the Left
» Mahdi Watch
» Mapping Sharia
» Mark Steyn
» Martin Kramer
» MEMRI TV
» Middle East Facts
» Middle East Quarterly
» Middle-East-Info.org
» Middle East Media Research Institute
» Middle East Review of International Affairs (MERIA)
» Militant Islam Monitor
» Morning Star
» Muhammad Tube
» The Muslim Issue
» Muslim World Today
» Myths and Facts
» National Vietnam & Gulf War Veterans Coalition
» NewsReal Blog
» No Mosques At Ground Zero
» Nonie Darwish
» Northeast Intelligence Network
» Occidental Jihadist
» One Jerusalem
» Open Speech
» Operation Give
» Operation Gratitude
» Organiser
» Orwellian Culture
» Palestinian Media Watch
» PamelaGeller.com
» Panun Kashmir
» Pedestrian Infidel
» The People's Cube
» The People of the Book
» Persecution Project
» Political Islam
» Politically Incorrect
» Politiskt Inkorrekt
» Q Society of Australia
» Radio Farda
» Radio Jihad
» RAWA: Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan
» Raymond Ibrahim
» Red Alerts
» Refugee Resettlement Watch
» Religion of Peace
» Republican Riot
» Reuters Middle East Watch
» The “Reverend” Jim Sutter
» SANE: Society of Americans for National Existence
» The Second Draft
» Shire Network News
» SITE Intelligence Group
» Small Wars Journal
» Smoke-Filled World
» The Snooper Report
» Snow Report Blog
» StandWithUs
» Steve Lackner
» The Stiletto Blog
» STOP! Honour Killings
» Sultan Knish
» Tell the Children the Truth
» Terrorism Awareness Project
» Theodore’s World
» Tom Gross Media
» Translating Jihad
» Una via per Oriana
» Undaunted
» United States Central Command
» Urban Infidel
» Walid Shoebat
» Winds of Jihad
» Women Against Shariah
» World Council for the Cedars Revolution
» Yid With Lid
» Z Street
» Zilla of the Resistance
» Zionist Conspiracy
Crucified Again by Raymond IbrahimDavid LittmanOriana Fallaci Thousands of Deadly Terror Attacks Since 9/11The incredible Reza Aslan automated insult generator! iGoogle Gadget
Site Meter