"I talked to him and went through his arguments and countered all of them theologically and he accepted it. I thought that was the end of it but he carried on. So one day, before the end of Ramadan, when the mosque was full I directly challenged all his misinterpretations of Islam."
Of course, Qadeer Baksh doesn't bother to explain to the Telegraph exactly how Taimur Abdulwahab al-Abdaly misunderstood Islam, and that is par for the course: again and again over the years we have seen Islamic spokesmen make sweeping generalizations about how jihad terror contradicts basic tenets of Islam, but detailed theological refutations of the jihadists' Islamic arguments remain extremely thin on the ground.
Also, it's noteworthy that the Luton mosque leaders acted so proactively, by their own account, while at the same time Luton is known as "synonymous with Islamic extremism." So many Misunderstanders of Islam in Luton, and none of them go to this mosque? Or do some of the go there indeed, and they all get thrown out, as was Taimur Abdulwahab al-Abdaly?
And why didn't it occur to Gordon Rayner, Andy Bloxham and Laura Roberts of the Telegraph to ask Qadeer Baksh any even mildly probing questions?
"Stockholm bomber was thrown out of Luton mosque for trying to recruit extremists," by Gordon Rayner, Andy Bloxham and Laura Roberts in the Telegraph, December 13 (thanks to all who sent this in):
The Stockholm bomber was thrown out of a mosque in Luton three years ago following a row over his extremist beliefs, it has emerged.Taimur Abdulwahab al-Abdaly, 28, tried to recruit other Muslims to share his fanatical views when he was given a chance to preach at the Luton Islamic Centre.
Sources there said he then turned his attention to trying to recruit students by giving sermons at the Islamic Society of the University of Bedfordshire, of which he was a graduate....
Qadeer Baksh, chairman of the Luton Islamic Centre, also known as the Al Ghurabaa mosque, said the bomber believed Western governments had no right to involve themselves in Iraq or Afghanistan and urged others to "take matters into their own hands" because traditional mosques were not proactive enough.
Mr Baksh said: "He arrived at the mosque at the start of Ramadan [the Muslim holy month of fasting] in 2007.
"We hadn't seen him before but he was very nice, a gentle, bubbly character. People liked him and he was very helpful to them.
"He was like that for a couple of weeks and he was given the opportunity to preach.
"Some of the members brought it to my attention that his views were extreme so I challenged him[.]
"It was all about Iraq and Afghanistan. He was saying that Western governments had no right to be there and how too many Muslims remained silent.
"He said we should be more proactive and take matters into our own hands but he never directly advocated violence.
"He said the leaders of Muslim nations had to take more action and said scholars here were working for the government.
"It was quite serious because some of the worshippers were starting to really listen to him.
"I talked to him and went through his arguments and countered all of them theologically and he accepted it. I thought that was the end of it but he carried on.
"So one day, before the end of Ramadan, when the mosque was full I directly challenged all his misinterpretations of Islam.
"He just stood up and stormed out. We never saw him again - but I heard he'd gone to the Islamic Society at the university and continued to preach his extremist views."
The mosque has been linked in the past to extremist groups including Al-Muhajiroun, the banned organisation which was headed by the firebrand cleric Omar Bakri Mohammed.
Mr Baksh said that the mosque remained vigilant against infiltration from organised extremist groups.
He said: "We removed them from our mosque. We are sick of them.
"We see them as problematic. They have a completely distorted view of Islam."
Meanwhile, it has also emerged that Abdulwahab sent a chilling audio recording in English shortly before the bombings warning his actions would "speak for themselves".
A man is heard describing the Islamic state as a "reality" in Europe and in Sweden....
The recording states: "Now the Islamic state has been created. We now exist here in Europe and in Sweden. We are a reality. I don't want to say more about this. Our actions will speak for themselves."
He added: "We are not a lie, or imagination. We are real."
He also referred to the depiction of the prophet Mohammed with the body of a dog in a 2007 cartoon by a Swedish artist which enraged many Muslims.
He said: "Stop your drawings of our prophet...No more oppression against Islam or Muslims will be tolerated in any way or by any means."...
Some clues for spotting those who may be "extremists".
http://freemendo.typepad.com/undaunted/2010/03/this-bitch-jihad-jane------jihad-jane-aka-colleen-trailertrash-larose-jihadjane-licking-off-what-the-finger-bowl-missed.html
"So one day, before the end of Ramadan, when the mosque was full I directly challenged all his misinterpretations of Islam.
Swell, now tell us what theological parts he got wrong and how you splained it to him the 'right' way, which he apparently rejected...I'm sorry but little of that passes the smell test...
"I talked to him and went through his arguments and countered all of them theologically and he accepted it. I thought that was the end of it but he carried on. So one day, before the end of Ramadan, when the mosque was full I directly challenged all his misinterpretations of Islam."
I do not believe this one bit. They are lying!
Isabella
He added: "We are not a lie, or imagination. We are real."
Yeah, we know that! Satan too is real!
He said: "Stop your drawings of our prophet..."
Yeah, but what if the drawings are "Halal", based on your own books?...like this one:
http://crossmuslims.blogspot.com/2010/05/drawing-muhammad-dessiner-mahomet.html
You know it's probably just a case of one bad apple there in Luton. And now he's done blowed hisself up so there's nothing to worry about anymore. All those MI5 guys watching the Luton mosque can go home now. There's no baddies there, chaps.
"I talked to him and went through his arguments and countered all of them theologically and he accepted it. I thought that was the end of it but he carried on. So one day, before the end of Ramadan, when the mosque was full I directly challenged all his misinterpretations of Islam."
................................
Wouldn't you have like to have seen this? Of course, I'd like to see a unicorn one day, but I don't hold out too much hope for that, either.
"I talked to him and went through his arguments and countered all of them."
I think he means they disagreed on strategy, implementation and timing---I doubt that they disagreed much on basic Islamic theology.
".....threw him out of our mosgue......."
The rest of the story:
"into a waiting cab with a first class ticket to stockholm, and a BRAND NEW VEST........"
i guess the idea of reporting his extremist views to the proper authority never crossed anyone’s minds? if they had done that we'd know what side they were on.
So one day, before the end of Ramadan, when the mosque was full I directly challenged all his misinterpretations of Islam.
I saw this kind of debate only once in a Birmingham mosque where the panel of "misunderstanders of Islam" won hand over fist over the panel of "moderate Muslims." The moderates were eventually subdued to the point where their only line of argument was that the misunderstanders were crazy.
I wish I could bring this tape to a link. It would be a great presentation of the obvious cover up that this imam is proposing.
Since the bomber is dead...you won't get his side of the story about being thrown out of the mosque...I bet he wasn't thrown out...I would suggest he was given specialized training....
Excellent observation BTp, and I am sure its pretty close to accurate.
Perhaps the Church of England is a little restrictive, but I consider it inconceivable that an unknown newcomer to my church, no matter how "very nice, gentle, bubbly and helpful", would within a couple of weeks, and unsupervised by the vicar, be given the opportunity to preach!
And even then, only "some" of the members brought the extreme views to the mosque leader's attention. Presumably most of the members were quite OK with this lunatic's views. Bottom line is I don't believe a word of it.
I have no doubt that there are mosques where the imam has spent a lot of time trying to get around the violent this or the intolerant that, hoping that a private, unofficial, selective interpretation will be sufficient to keep his flock showing up and the feds at bay.
Imagine his chagrine when he discovers Muslims attending his masjid who know the Qur'an and ahadith better than he does, and are not afraid to share those scriptures.
What does he do with his little pretty made-up Islam?
Has it been exposed for all of the Ummah to see?
Does he keep moving the mouth of the Great and Terrible Oz and hope no one notices the ugly truth between the green covers of that awful, disgusting, book?
How do I remain a supremacist totalitarian without anyone noticing? How am I going to disclaim the violent parts to my flock if these devout, accurate, adherents keep blowing others up and mucking it all up?
Would it shock you to conceive that the Imam is an apologistic liar who is believed by a bunch of Multicultural/PC ignoramuses who would believe that the earth is flat if so told by an Imam. Or who would gently disabuse this person without really challenging him. For it is fortolde that the meek shall inherit the earth: I just hope its this bunch of credulous idiots.
Of course these apologists have another agenda, but they don't yet understand what it is.
I really must stop watching the BBC its cringe making.
1. "Some of the members brought it to my attention that his views were extreme so I challenged him[.]
So, which of his views did those members of the flock think extreme?
2. "It was quite serious because some of the worshippers were starting to really listen to him.
Really? Like they'd never heard what he had to say before?
3. "So one day, before the end of Ramadan, when the mosque was full I directly challenged all his misinterpretations of Islam.
Oh? And what did those who'd really started to listen to him do then?
4. "He just stood up and stormed out. We never saw him again - but I heard he'd gone to the Islamic Society at the university and continued to preach his extremist views."
What? No phones at the university? The Imam didn't tip off his 'moderate' buds there and those three 'journalists' didn't bother to follow up?
It's not merely that those three idiots didn't think to ask the Imam for specifics, but that none of them--upon returning to their desks--bothered to do their homework.
Or that maybe they did and decided not to let the truth get in the way of their fairy tale.
Boston Tea Party
you quoted from the article, the imam's words:
"I talked to him and went through his arguments and countered all of them."
and you observed "I think he means they disagreed on strategy, implementation and timing---I doubt that they disagreed much on basic Islamic theology."
That's pretty much the way I read it, too. A disagreement about tactics and timing.
The young hothead wanted to get stuck into full-on, openly declared combat jihad right away; the imam tells him, no, you're overconfident, the infidels are as yet too strong and some of them are getting suspicious, we need to lull their suspicions, lie low and build up our forces for a while yet before we act. And *that* argument he could indeed have supported from Islamic texts.
Like Taqi Osmani said:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article2409833.ece
'Our followers ‘must live in peace until strong enough to wage jihad’'.
"...Justice Muhammad Taqi Usmani argues that Muslims should live peacefully in countries such as Britain, where they have the freedom to practise Islam, **only until they gain enough power to engage in battle** {my emphasis - dda}.
'His views explode the myth that the creed of offensive, expansionist jihad represents a distortion of traditional Islamic thinking.'
And then there's Hamza Yousef:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2004/11/hamza-yousef-jihad-is-actually-considered-a-rahma-mercy-in-islam.html
"The Muslim society has lost the ability of strategic thinking, which Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) exemplified by compromising on several points with the enemy when he signed the Treaty of Hudaibia, said leading American Muslim, Shaikh Hamza Yousuf, at a lecture on Monday.
"Elaborating his point, Shaikh Hamza Yousuf said, “There are times when you have to live like a sheep in order to live in the future like a lion.”
Our self-exploding Muslim in Sweden wanted to make like a lion *now*, whereas most likely Qadeer Baksh told him, "be patient, be patient, it's not the right time for that.. YET, we are not yet quite strong enough, keep that sheepskin on and go on saying 'baa'".
But al-Abdaly didn't agree, and now Qadeer Baksh is frantically running damage control.
"Some of the members brought it to my attention that his views were extreme so I challenged him[.]"
What did you actually say to him? Never mentioned in the report.
This is what he (bodyBomber) said- "Stop your drawings of our prophet...No more oppression against Islam or Muslims will be tolerated in any way or by any means."...
How can you challenge him from the Islamic view point about what he said?
I challenge you that you cannot vilify his statements from the Islamic view point. That's the reason I believe you are a liar.
"They have a completely distorted view of Islam."
Nice speech Imammy, but I don't believe a word of it and I'm sure you don't either.
"He said we should be more proactive and take matters into our own hands but he never directly advocated violence."--Qadeer Baksh, as quoted.
How about indirectly?
"So one day, before the end of Ramadan, when the mosque was full I directly challenged all his misinterpretations of Islam.
"He just stood up and stormed out. We never saw him again - but I heard he'd gone to the Islamic Society at the university and continued to preach his extremist views." --Qadeer Baksh
Taimur Abdulwahab al-Abdaly was "extremist" enough to warrant kicking him and his followers* out of the mosque, but not enough to warrant contacting the police?
*And BTW, what about them?
anyone else see a channel 5 interview with a certain "luton mosque spokeman"..?
He looked very familiar, i'm pretty good with faces. Anyway he was crowing about how he tried to challenge abdulwahabi on his extremist views until wahabidhabi stormed off in an jihadhi huff.
Well I might be wrong but i'm sure our friendly.."luton mosque spokeman"
Was in the crowd when they heckled the soldiers in Luton. I can't seem to find the video of his interview and match it with a pic of the Luton demo.
If someone else has the time to look into it and it proved to be him it would show a shocking bit of taqiyya and duplicity.
Above I asked why didn't those at the mosque contact the police about this "extremist". This question is pursued in the following article:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1338392/Stockholm-suicide-bomber-fanatical-mosque-went-Yemen-Sweden.html
"Too fanatical for the mosque: So why did no one tell the police before suicide bomber travelled to Yemen and then Sweden?"
By Neil Sears and Ryan Kisiel
Last updated at 9:07 AM on 14th December 2010
...though the answers thus far don't seem satisfactory, e.g., (from the dailymail article):
"Farasat Latif, the secretary of the Luton Islamic Centre, said [...] "‘If we rang up the police and reported him on his views at the time, they would have laughed at us and done nothing.’"[...]"
That's interesting.
I hope you can find the footage!
OT: nice to see you posting here. Hope you're keeping well; I'll take this opportunity to wish you a Merry Christmas ahead of time, in case I don't see you in the comments threads. I read regularly at New English Review as well as here, which keeps me up to date on the Jihad within Britain; I do still comment at NER, as well, but under a different nom de plume.
Thanks DDA..and a merry xmas to you and your family too...I did try and contact you directly a while back but i've been out of the country and generally snowed under as it were.
I've tried to search for the footage but even me a techy geek is having trouble. I have an almost photographic memory for faces and a soon as I saw this "spokesman" on the channel 5 news yesterday it started me thinking.
It's not all doom and gloom. I was listening to the Jeremy Vine show on Radio 2 yesterday which has a big listener base in the UK and they were discussing luton and some of the callers were given a lot of air time and were allowed to say their peace...I would recommend going to the iplayer and see if you can listen again..although when I was in Spain recently it wouldn't let me access anything. For some reason you need to be based in the UK..BBC licence fee paranoia again. Unless you've paid they don't want you in their cosy dhimmied club..well I've never paid my licence fee and I never will but that's another matter...
So..one caller who had a relative in the area of luton that the mosque is in said something to the words of "...and islam is a vile religion..."...and he was allowed to say it before he was interrupted...on the bbc no less.
There is a paradigm shift in the media..even the bbc..
If I get time i'll research this "spokesman" and post here.
regards
If you do confirm your hunch, send whatever hard evidence you unearth, straight to Mr Spencer - and/ or to Esmerelda Weatherwax at NER.
Glad you came back to this thread and received my greeting.
Yep, I too think that some kind of tipping point in awareness approaches...as somebody says in Tolkien's Lord of the Rings, (the book, NOT the movie) "the wind is changing".