The usual persecution continues, aided by the "permit system" that stacks the deck against non-Muslim groups seeking to open places of worship. "Police, Islamists Put Up Obstacles to Worship in Indonesia," from Compass Direct, January 10:
JAKARTA, Indonesia, January 10 (CDN) -- Government officials in West Java Province blocked one church from worshipping, and Islamic groups pressured authorities to seize the property of another during the Christmas season.
The Bogor Regency Administrative Leadership Council tried unsuccessfully to forbid the Gereja Kristen Indonesia (Indonesian Christian Church, or GKI) in Bogor's Taman Yasmin area from holding a Dec. 25 Christmas service, but authorities did block it from its regular Sunday service on De.26. In Rancaekek, Bandung, Islamic demonstrators on Dec. 19 got police to remove items from a Huria Kristan Batak Protestan (HKBP) church building that had already been sealed.
In Bogor, GKI Yasmin spokesperson Bona Sigalingging said police telephoned church leaders to forbid Christmas services that were to begin at 7 p.m. on Dec. 25.
"At that time the leaders rejected the police order," Sigalingging told Compass.
Church leaders went to a strip of land in front of the GKI Yasmin building, which the Bogor city government has sealed, to set up a rented tent for the Christmas service. Local police arrived and ordered that the service be cancelled, but again church leaders refused, Sigalingging said.
They continued setting up the tent and arranging benches, and at about 5:30 p.m., 10 women wearing Muslim head coverings (hijabs) arrived to demonstrate against the Christmas service. Male demonstrators in Muslim clothing joined the demonstration at 7 p.m., and protestors from the Islamic People's Forum (FUI) pressured police to stop the service.
At 8 p.m., the Christmas prayer and reflection service began, with demonstrators screaming, "Allahu akbar [God is greater]!" and "Break it up!" They also yelled, "Arrest the provocateurs," Sigalinging said.
Though upset, the congregation continued to worship, he said. As they sang "Silent Night" and lit candles, the demonstrators shouted all the louder, moving toward the worshippers. They came within three meters of the worshippers before police were finally able to restrain them.
The congregation continued in solemn prayer and song, with the mob yelling until the service finished at 9 p.m.
Church leaders were meeting at 12:45 a.m. to plan the next morning's 8 a.m. worship service when a member of the legal team received a phone call asking them to meet with members of the army and intelligence services, as well as with Bogor city and West Java police. At the meeting, a soldier speaking for the Bogor municipality requested that the GKI cancel Sunday morning worship scheduled for Dec. 26, Sigalingging said....
Church Property Seized
In Rancaekek, Bandung, Islamic protestors occupying the front part of the Huria Kristan Batak Protestan HKBP church premises on Dec. 19 clamored for police to remove property from the building; eventually authorities removed the pews and other items.
The local government had already sealed the building, but demonstrators from the hard-line Muslim Intellectuals Gathering Forum of Rancaekek arrived at 4 a.m. on Dec. 19 calling for its belongings to be removed, sources said....
"the hard-line Muslim Intellectuals Gathering Forum of Rancaekek arrived at 4 a.m. on Dec. 19 calling for its belongings to be removed, sources said....
The hard line Muslim "Intellectuals" (heh) Gathering (other peoples things) forum.
Any one else have a prob w/this?
yes I believe the word you are looking for is oxymoron, two things which are mutually exclusive
If you shout at Muslims who are having prayers...it's a hate crime....there seems to be a double standard here....
Understandably few Jihad Watchers probably read Al Jazeera,,,,
http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/01/20111984740173586.html
But they commented on this whole persecution phenomenon.
It was.... really disgusting.
They blame it all on....
1. Western colonialism.
2. Western support of brutal regimes.
3. The Iraq war
4. Israel
5. "Islam being hijacked by a few extremists who, geez, just don't get how peaceful it is!"
Unable to come to terms with Islam's own faults, Al J. simply blames it all on the evil west and so forth. Really disgusting puff piece and it should be responded to.
I'd love to see Spencer and co. go after Al J's false propaganda like they do with people with Reza and Ibey.
Lamis Andoni is the writer's name.
Disgustingly enough he concludes by writing...
"Sarkozy and other Western leaders can save us their speeches. The Western outcry over slaughtered Christians, while it is engaged in killing Arabs in Iraq and Muslims in Afghanistan, could only preclude a real introspective discussion about the Arab role in creating fragmented societies and it is time for us to face our own demons."
In other words, western leaders should SHUT UP about Christians being slaughtered and if they bitch then the slaughter will just get worse!
Spencer, please put "Lameass" Andoni in his place! Make him (or her, weird name) as infamous as you've made others and please work more actively against the pro-terrorist propaganda that Al J keeps spewing.
The sooner people stop following their silly little jealous gods with their silly little holy books the better.
There are far far far more pressing matters occurring on our tiny insignificant planet set at an insignificant edge of a less than ordinary spiral galaxy in a very uninteresting part of a universe which is most likely just one tiny part of a multi-multiverse.
These bible bashin' Qur'an idolizing types need to get a grip on reality.
I find it really really hard to believe that grown human beings, who presumably possess some kind of brain, actually believe in such things as 'Gods'
Opium for the masses.
I wish you lot would bash The Religion of Peace from a realistic secular agnostic point of view rather than the "my fairy tale is more believable than your fairy tale" stance : ) may the gods bless you .
// GKI Yasmin spokesperson Bona Sigalingging said police telephoned church leaders to forbid Christmas services…//
Police did not forbid Christmas services. There were large numbers of police there to protect the churchgoers from the Muslim groups:
“The Bogor Police will maintain personnel in place to prevent locals from attacking the church, which has already been closed by the Bogor city administration for violating a land use bylaw. …Police had deployed 1,000 personnel to the site following a protest by locals rejecting the presence of the church in their neighborhood.”
http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2010/12/27/bogor-police-lift-blockade-yasmin-church.html
And in other non-“Compass Direct” news:
“As religious freedom watchdogs decry rising intolerance in the capital and the country as a whole, representatives of 10 Muslim organizations gathered alongside Christian leaders to deliver Christmas and New Year’s greetings on Thursday at the Maarif Institute. Among the demonstrators were the Association of Islamic Students (HMI), Indonesian Islamic Students Movement (PMII), Muhammadiyah Students Union (IMM) and the Indonesian Nationalists Students Movement (GMNI). ‘We would like to say merry Christmas to all Christians in Indonesia. We also want to voice our concerns over violent incidents against minorities in Indonesia. Our Christmas and New Year’s message is an appeal to all Indonesians to unite and fight every form of intolerance,’ HMI chairman Muhammad Chozin Amirullah said. Jeirry Sumampow from the Indonesian Communion of Churches (PGI) welcomed the greetings and the Christmas message. ‘This is beautiful. Admittedly, minor incidents against Christians still happen, but overall, I feel almost no pressure coming into this year’s Christmas,’ he said.”
http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2010/12/24/amid-intolerance-a-joint-holiday-greeting.html
“’Christmas this year is celebrated with a greater spirit of tolerance, especially with the security support from the government and other institutions, which allows us to observe the Holy day in peace,’ Immanuel Protestant Church representative Wilhelinus Aub Taulo said after Christmas Mass on Saturday. Church security team leader Beni Muaya said that in addition to members of Forkabi, neighborhood residents also took part in securing the area. At the nearby Cathedral, 29 members of the FPMM volunteered to help provide security for Christmas observances in the church. ‘We want to build a harmonious relationship between people of different faiths, and this is how we do it,’ FPMM leader Ali Tatawalat said, adding that his colleagues had stood guard since Christmas Eve.”
http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2010/12/26/christians-observe-a-peaceful-xmas.html
South-East Asia (that include oil-rich Malaysia, Indonesia and Brunei) must be saved, from the oil-hungry suspected alliance of Saudi-Iran-Turkey's Islamic grip (since their oil is diminishing!) - massive new oil & gas discovery in Borneo island especially. Thus is why they're stealthily radicalizing through showering poor blind Muslim fools and the equally greedy rich Muslim fools with lots of money, in cash, or through mosque building (including in Hindu-dominated Bali through poor or bribed Javanese Muslim settlers) or infiltrating or setting up Islamic depts. in Universities and also pushing their many foot-soldiers including from Pakistani and Bangladeshi Muslims (where many are brought in as migrant workers) to seduce poor uneducated women particularly non-Muslim women, from the villages like in Borneo. Non-Arab Muslims especially used to be modern people in SEA must breakaway from these primitive influences if they want to stay modern and become more civilized like in the mostly progressive Western world. Or completely abandoned Islam, where Islam is really about being SLAVES to savage Arabic Imperialism. For goodness sake, after knowing the real truths, how can one still worship the Arabic Pedophile Mohammed, who created Islam and its false god to legitimize so much savage evilness including rape of children, both boys and girls, including of conquest captives such as Jewish children, and the first systematic racial Genocide of the Jews to create pure Nazi-like Arabian kingdom?!
At 8 p.m., the Christmas prayer and reflection service began, with demonstrators screaming, "Allahu akbar [God is greater]!" and "Break it up!" They also yelled, "Arrest the provocateurs," Sigalinging said.
..........................
The "provocateurs"—that would be the peacefully worshiping Christians, not the threatening, disruptive Muslim supremacists.
More:
Though upset, the congregation continued to worship, he said. As they sang "Silent Night" and lit candles, the demonstrators shouted all the louder, moving toward the worshippers. They came within three meters of the worshippers before police were finally able to restrain them.
..........................
Yes—I'm sure the police were sorely taxed in their efforts to protect the Christians. That must be why they let the mob get so close...sarc/off
More:
The congregation continued in solemn prayer and song, with the mob yelling until the service finished at 9 p.m.
..........................
This brings to mind, as it likely does for many Westerners, the image of all the Whos in Whoville, who come out to sing in Christmas even after the Grinch has taken everything they own.
And yet, the Grinch seems every bit the mild children's bogeyman here, presenting no real threat to the celebrants.
Unlike these threatening, bellicose Muslims. Every Christian who came out to light a candle against the darkness and sing "Silent Night" at that service is brave, indeed.
dhimmiwitm, why do you blame all religion and generalizing all religion as the same? Judeo-Christian religion is about our shared God anger at evilness; thus He gave the Ten Commandments that founded civilized modern Western law. But Islam is created by the Arabic Pedophile rapist Mohammed to legitimize evilness including slavery rape of children, both boys and girls, including conquest captives such as Jewish children, and the first systematic racial Genocide of the Jews to create pure Nazi-like Arabian kingdom – so you see the difference now?! By the way, another lie from you; here's the real truth instead - between God-hating Socialists Hitler, Stalin and Mao, they've butchered around 40 million innocent human beings especially Jews and Christians! Hitler was a Socialist/Communist Left who loved Islam (and the Arabic-led Muslims have always and still are using or advising Western Socialists and Nationalists to promote Arabic conquest and Jew-hatred); see http://constitutionalistnc.tripod.com/hitler-leftist/id9.html
HITLER WAS A SOCIALIST
John J. Ray (M.A.; Ph.D.)
"another lie from you"
I'm sorry, I'm not too sure about my so called lies.
I would like atheists and non-atheists with a common interest to stand against the religionm of peace.
I'm sorry if I have upset you somehow, but I trust that you do not want to blow me up with semtex xx
The aptly self-styled "dhimmiwit" wrote:
I wish you lot would bash The Religion of Peace from a realistic secular agnostic point of view rather than the "my fairy tale is more believable than your fairy tale" stance : ) may the gods bless you .
...............................
Don't you think you are rather missing the point here?
This article was not posted to imply that "my fairy tale is more believable than your fairy tale"—it is not Christian proselytizing. It is about whether people under Shari'ah have a right to worship freely.
*It does not matter whether you share their beliefs*—one need not be Christian, or even believe in any sort of creator at all, to believe that peaceful worshipers have the right to practice their faith unmolested.
Do you believe that these Muslim supremacists would be any more sympathetic to your agnosticism or atheism than they are to these Christians? They have shown over and over again that they are not.
You are just as much at risk as these Christian church-goers are. If you do not fight for their right to worship as they see fit—even if you find that worship terribly silly—there will be no one left to stand up for the secularists, either.
*Every* non-Muslim is at risk from Muslim supremacism—whether Christian, or Jew, or Hindu, or Buddhist, or Baha'i, or Wiccan, or animist, or agnostic, or atheist.
Read Houshang Asadi's devastating "Letters to my Torturer" to see how atheists have been treated in the Islamic Republic of Iran. It is not for the faint of heart.
I'm so sick of allahu akbarists.
They remind of violent gangs controlling urban street corners.
Totally pathetic, yet seemingly impossible to stop.
I would love to see a Star Trek episode where the crew comes in contact with an islamized world.
Wait! I don't have to see an episode like that.
It's happening before my very eyes!
dhimmiwit, next time, be more intelligent and do not generalize as if all religion is evil like how Islam is! By the way, we Christians are not taught by our Lord Jesus Christ, to torture or blow up people for their free speech or different religious faith - unlike in Islam or in God-hating Socialism as Hiltler, Mao and Stalin, have proven!
I think it is no coincidence that the jihad against non-Muslims in Islamic countries (it seems they don't even tolerate dhimmitude but want to eradicate all other religions entirely) keeps picking up steam as Western nations concede more and more to Islam in the West. Muslims smell blood, like sharks, and the weakness of the West emboldens not only Muslims in the West but also in their own lands. The West doesn't complain about the treatment of dhimmis in Islamic countries, either. So we've got a sense of ascendance globally among Muslims, a kind of feeding frenzy. The governments of Islamic countries, knowing there is nothing to gain in even keeping up the pretense of tolerance, as Western governments do not make this an issue, just stand back or even encourage the final annihilation of all that is not-Islamic in the Islamic world.
Western weakness has led to the complete dropping of the veil on Muslim triumphalism and supremacism globally. Yet it's still Muslims who are weak. This could all stop or be contained and managed, but instead the momentum keeps building. It is the West's capitulation that is leading to this feeding frenzy. Is there are any historical precedent for cultural suicide on this scale?
The anaogy there would be the Borg Collective.
*analogy*
"Silent Night" vs. Savagery. No contest in my book.
A totally wasted and blown out world.
Impossible to call it a "society" let alone a "civilisation".
More like a dog eat dog world like Somalia or Afghanistan, but world wide.
The only reason there is some semblance of "order" in some islamic countries like Saudi or UAE is because of dhimmi support.
Without dhimmis an islamized world would be worse than muhammad's desert environment.
Nothing but chaos and mayhem.
And the leaders of Western Civilisation seems to welcome that madness.
Totally pathetic, yet seemingly impossible to stop.
Pathetic, yes, and in so many ways. Pathetic for the insecurity, hate, envy, fear, and intolerance that permeate the muslim psyche. Pathetic for their violent, cruel, and delusional mentality, but pathetic most of all for their complete lack of compassion, love, and empathy for their fellow man. Muslims suffer from pernicious identity disease; they are supposed to be the 'best of people' yet they are the dregs of humanity---angry, hostile, inferior, retrograde throwbacks from the seventh century who cannot excel or advance even when they torment, persecute, and silence their superiors.
They can and will be stopped. I eagerly await the day they are stopped in their violent, malevolent tracks, their mouths wide open in screams of 'allah akbar' and expressions of pure hate contorting their faces. They will be stopped, it's only a matter of time.
Susan,
Very nice to hear from you again.
Always love your posts.
I truly want to be optimistic in this regard, but I see nothing to rile up that emotion.
I guess the crusty ice in the South, along with the current "administration" and Western Civilisation's seemingly lack of concern, is "dampening" my spirit.
"I would like atheists and non-atheists with a common interest to stand against the religionm of peace."
You're actually describing the people on this website. There are many atheists here, as well as people of various Abrahamic and non-Abrahamic religions.
I'd drop the "opium for the masses" part though, not only because I believe it's a very superficial explanation for religion, but also because Socialists proved to be about as tolerant as the Catholic Church regarding empirical evidence that contradicts their cherished articles of faith and dogmas.
Besides, outside sciences (real ones, not social sciences) and technology, when it comes to human affairs, I'm yet to find any evidence for the human ability for rationality. Would you call the current mindset and policies in Europe rational? I wouldn't. The west has clearly abandoned its rationality.
I know the feeling. We had an Israel night at the local university and we visitors had to walk a crowded gauntlet of screaming protestors yelling murderers! and genocide! at the top of their lungs. And those were "educated" American students from comfortable, middle class homes, not a bunch of Islamic Third World islanders. But then, they've been taught (ie indoctrinated) well. It made me feel sorry for guys like Robert Spencer and David Horowitz who regularly lecture at colleges.
I think you're right about the sense of ascendance, though I don't completely agree with the rest. But the Islamist movements are "messianic" in nature - there is the general Utopia of a global Islamic caliphate, but the Islamists believe they can bring it NOW, and there are several indications for them that they are on the right track and that Allah is on their side: Islam is the fastest growing religion, it's wildly expanding in Africa and Asia for some time now, the west has "miraculously" decided to allow tens of millions of Muslims to immigrate into its territories, and is additionally projecting weakness, or what is interpreted as weakness due to cultural differences. Of course, the west is also fighting a couple of wars in majority Muslim countries, but from the point of view of Islam the west lost these wars in spite of its greater military might and ended up strengthening the Islamists, particularly the mother of Islamic revolution, Iran, that is also allowed to arm itself with nuclear weapons while the west is abandoning its traditional allies in the Middle East (not just Israel). Iran is proving itself to be on the winning side of history, so it seems, so it would make sense for the rest to join it rather than fight it, particularly when the west is projecting a lack of interest or ability to protect the non-revolutionary regimes in the ME from the Iranian threat and growing ambitions.
Turkey under the current rule is joining Iran. What will happen if Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Jordan join Iran as well? The Saudis see Iran as a threat, but they can't prevent it from going nuclear and they've already lost to Iran on the influence in Iraq. The Iranian foreign minister said that the most important Iranian foreign policy goals are strengthening its ties with Turkey and Saudi Arabia. Note that Iran is trying hard to unite the Muslim world, both Shiite and Sunni, behind it. Without the Sunnis who are a majority Iran would be much more isolated. Under the circumstances, the Saudis might decide that joining Iran in exchange for some deal on dividing the regional influence between them is better for them than opposing a nuclear Iran without the help of the west. If Saudi Arabia joins Iran what would Egypt do? Particularly when Mubarac is old and his son is weak and the period of power transfer is particularly vulnerable to revolotions. There might be an Islamic revolution, or Gamal Mubarak might decide to join the Iranian axis if the Saudis do. In which case you will have a united force of Iran, Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Egypt, three of which are equipped with American weapon and Turkey also with Israeli weapon.
And then you have Pakistan. And then you have some anti-American non-Muslim powers with great ambitions - "communist", "socialist" and formerly "communist" powers - that have various relations with the Muslim world - China, North Korea, Venezuela, Brazil, Cuba, Russia that has a huge Muslim population, including a large part of its army. Note also the concentration of oil in these countries - the west can't do without them. Didn't Allah invent oil and plant so much of it in Muslim ruled lands and in lands ruled by Muslim-friendly regimes for a purpose?
But hey, just kill the Jews and everything will be just fine.
Yeah, I'm feeling the pain of the 'crusty ice in the south' myself, an unusual and very messy occurrence. I took a picture of the hillside behind the pond covered in a sheet of snow and sleet. When it's 105 degrees this summer, I'm going to look at it to remind myself that it does get cold here sometimes, and then jump in the pond to cool off.
I sometimes get very depressed over the current political climate and the islamic challenge. If not for the political climate, the islamic challenge would be a piece of cake, so we must change the political climate. If we can alter the climate of the earth, surely we can do that! Western Civilization is here to stay; it's the best thing there is and there aren't enough dedicated 'progressives' to undo centuries of progress.
Are you familiar with Aiken, SC? It's not too far from where I live and I think of you whenever Aiken comes to mind.
I write to honor the courage of the Christians in the Bogor's Taman Yasmin area.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87q5dmW6zDg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9JXATSbywc&feature=related
The Jakarta Post: "Members of the congregation were prohibited from approaching their church, forcing them to hold a pray in front of a police barricade about 200 meters from the church."
The Jakarta Post: "Indonesian Muslims still have different opinions about wishing someone a merry Christmas. Some believe it is fine, but others disagree.
In 1984 the MUI (Indonesian Ulema Council) banned Muslims from saying merry Christmas.
Communication and Information Technology Minister Tifatul Sembiring, of the Muslim-based Prosperous Justice Party (PKS) is one of those who chose not to offer Christmas greetings for religious reasons."
The Jakarta Post: "In spite of the heightened security measures, not all Christians in the city felt safe observing Christmas. Some could not hide their anxiety about coming to church for service.
"Hingsi Clarce Umbas, who prayed at Immanuel Church on Saturday, said he preferred the afternoon service.
“I prefer an afternoon Mass rather than on Christmas Eve,” she said. “In the day, you can see people who come to the church, and what they carry. I don’t think I can do that at night,” Hingsi told the Post.
In recent years, Muslim extremists throughout the country have carried out terror attacks against churches during Christmas."
Susan,
I ate one of the best, if not the best, hamburgers at a Hardee's in Aiken. I've driven through that town on many occasions.
It may be inappropriate to say on a forum such as this, but from now on when the temperature gets up to 105 degrees I'll think of you jumping into that cool pond.
I believe the temperature went up a degree or two. :)
I found the mental image of those Christians singing Holy Night and lighting candles and going ahead with their Blessed service despite the onslaught of muslims' evil blasphemies inspiring and moving.
Yes, Steffen, I have read the articles. My point was not that the situation in Indonesia is perfect. The overall impression one gets from reading non-"Compass Direct" news is that although there are isolated incidents of Muslim against Christian violence, overall the situation is not that bad. This is the same impression I get from a friend who has family in Indonesia. Of course, you get a much different impression when you read sites as JW, which is because Mr. Spencer simply details every single incident of Muslim violence, and then leaves the impression that the entire society in question is the same. It is ridiculous, and is simply a crude attempt to demonize people in order to raise support for bombing them. Mr. Spencer is not portraying reality.
As I pointed out many times before, a Muslim could write a blog in a Muslim country that does the same thing - detailing every single incident where Muslims are victims of violence in the US. There are plenty. Here are a few from a 2 minute search on Lexis:
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-51711880.html
http://www.religionnewsblog.com/19022/islam-21
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x576089\
I could find hundreds. This Muslim blogger could then paint a picture that all Muslims everywhere in the US are in constant fear for their lives, when this is simply not the case. I have also pointed out that if a Muslim blogger did this in a Muslim country, I don't think it would work nearly as well as Mr. Spencer's site does in the US, because people in other countries are not nearly as stupid, gullible, fat and smelly as people in the US are.
Those civilized Christians stood up for their beliefs while those muslims of primitive beliefs howled like banshees - showing their hate and ignorance. In a future world they will disappear due to education and logic - hopefully. Or, there is no future! It seems the Christians are beginning to stand up and their bravery will make the muslims the cowards they really are.
Dave742 - YOU ARE AN IDIOT - AT BEST!
I did as well. "Better to light a candle then curse the darkness."
Yes, DWS, 9/11 "Truther" and islamic sympathizer Dave 742 is a big star over at Loonwatch. Which is pretty much all we stupid, gullible, fat, smelly islamophobes need to know about both him and Loonwatch...
For some reason you people constantly bring up "loonwatch" when I post. I never knew what you were talking about. I assumed that you were twisting the name of a real site and just calling it "loonwatch" to be funny. I didn't realize there was actually a site called "loonwatch." Funny. It's a good site. Thank for pointing it out. I like the article which shows that, according to FBI stats, from 1980 to 2005 there were more terrorist incidents in the US carried out by Jews than by Muslims:
http://www.loonwatch.com/2010/01/not-all-terrorists-are-muslims/
How funny.
I sent a link to my "Gates of Ijtihad" paper to Loonwatch. Maybe they will print it! How exciting!
LOL, nobody cares, Truther Dave! But I'll be happy to print it up and use it to puppy-train my Black Lab. It'll be a nice break for him from those KKKoran pages...
Dog Without Slippers wrote:
Dave742 - YOU ARE AN IDIOT - AT BEST!
................................
Dave742's avatar from the old IntenseDebate days was the *Hizb'allah logo*, brandishing an automatic weapon over a map of the world.
He's not just a clueless apologist—he's something much, much worse...