# Cutting their own throats: Copts rally in Italy turns against Israel supporters

Pamela Geller has posted a disturbing letter from an Atlas Shrugs reader in Milan:

Today January 9th 2011 in the Duomo Square, Milano, Italy, a rally was held by the Copts of Milano along with some supporting Italian organizations; among them there were the Northen Ligue, the "Amo l'Italia - I love Italy", Magdi Allam's party, and ADI (Amici di Israele - Friends of Israel).

Near the end of the gathering, the people from ADI put on their shoulders the Israeli flag. The Copts reacted violently refusing the presence of the Israeli flags. The police had to intervene to separate them and oblige the ADI people to leave the gathering.

You can see the pictures of the event here:

Being a friend of Maurizio Turchet, the photographer, I am in picture # 13, with a Citrali hat (the hat used by Osama bin Laden!) that I bought in Peshawar!

I think it's really madness for a persecuted minority to behave like racists towards other minorities which support them, only because they can do it. What a pity!

Indeed. Historically, Islamic supremacist masters did their best to sow discord among different dhimmi communities, keeping them apart and at odds with one another, but those communities today only work against their own best interests by refusing to ally together. Bat Ye'or spoke the truth when she called upon the historical dhimmi groups -- primarily Jews and Christians -- to recognize that the jihad targets them for the same oppression and subjugation and to work together to resist that jihad.

In the same spirit, I have long called for an alliance of all those whose conversion, subjugation, or death is envisioned by the adherents of Sharia. We should stand together as Jews, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, atheists, secularists, and resist those who would kill us or subject us to institutionalized discrimination. And while some Middle Eastern Christian leaders remain mired in antisemitism and dhimmi attitudes of intellectual and political subservience, others are breaking out of it.

Not all Copts are antisemitic: in mid-December several fiercely pro-Israel Zionists spoke at the Voice of the Copts' International Human Rights Day conference in Washington -- including Pamela Geller and me. Those who continue in antisemitic attitudes, like those at this rally in Milan, are not only working against the interests of their own community, but also against justice and truth.

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I think the Copts are saying, "Look, dude, we are in enough trouble already! Help a brother out, will ya, and lose the flag?"

The problem with that is that the divide and conquer strategy works. Besides, when will these people realize they are praying to a Jew. Pope John Paul said it best, when he stated that Jews are our elder brothers in religion. Perhaps when the schism is healed there will be concerted action..

agreed... copts don't have copters...

The Copts are new to this, the limelight. maybe they weren't expecting the support. they would have been pretty emotional, and the Italian infuence always makes for melodrama..

they will find they have allies they weren't expecting. they'd better get used to it. they need all the friends they can get right now.

Probably typical of anyone living in a muslim country, muslim or not, Jew hatred trumps all.

Just like Arab Christian Helen T'Hamas, bagging on the Jews. Guess what Helen, you and us Jews have a common enemy.

Jerry Garcia hu Akbar!

Personally, I don't have enough information to even begin to comment on what was going on at that demonstration. But what is true, and known, is that the organizers of a demonstration when they invite supporting organizations to join the event, first get together and have discussions about how they want it to proceed. The Copts have their own priorities and strategies. It's their demonstration. It's not automatically necessary for each supporting group to drape themselves in flags or banners identifying themselves . This is a matter of practical politics. Surely Robert Spencer and Pam Geller know about that themselves in their own organizing efforts.
The Copts invited the Jewish organization to be there. Is that antiSemitism? Probably they thought it would be safer for Copts back in Egypt if they kept this as a low profile alliance.
But it's another matter the problem of Coptic antisemitism among the highest ranking Coptic priests which is evidently very real and very stupid. That's another problem to be solved.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE70834K20110109
U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, in Abu Dhabi on a tour of U.S. Gulf Arab allies, said: "This disturbing development undermines peace efforts to achieve the two-state solution. In particular, this move contradicts the logic of a reasonable and necessary agreement between the parties on the status of Jerusalem."

====

It's not like it's a secret that the world is being tipped anti-Jew (and anti-historical fact)

The Christian "Arabs" (most of the Chrisitians in the Middle East are not Arabs, Copts are not Arabs, but these ones are menatlly Arabs) in general are perhaps the most naive in the Middle East.

If you visit Kurdish forums and videos you will see there is a variety of opinions and there are quite a few Kurds who are pro-Israel because they see the Jews as the only non-Arabs who succeeded in founding their own independent state in the Middle East and survive all the Arab attacks. They take inspiration and hope from that as they hope to have their own independant Kurdish state.

If you talk to Iranians, particularly Iranians living in the west, again you will find a variety of opinions and quite a few who are not anti-Israel and some who are even pro-Israel, not to mention pro-American. They are so disillusioned from the Islamist regime and they've been lied to about so many things that they don't trust anything the regime says anymore and they started thinking maybe everything the regime says is bad is actually good and vise versa. Although in Iran there are also the leftists (far left) who are just as anti-Israel as the Islamists/Stalinists. But most importantly, what I've seen on some Iranian forum was people that whenever the subject of Israel and the Arab Palestinians was mentioned insisted it's none of their business. Because they understood that portraying Israel as everyone's common enemy and the most pressing problem in the ME is used to divert attention from their own very pressing problems.

But I'm yet to find one Assyrian who has one good word to say about Israel or that isn't prejudiced against it. As some Kurd put it, they were the most successfully Arabized.

In the Middle East there are 3 alternatives for common ground as a basis for political order: pan-Islamism, pan-Arabism and local nationalism, ie Egyptian, Syrian, Jordanian etc. The latter was an import from the west, the result of colonialism and the way the Euros drew the map, so in many cases it's totally artificial. Anyway, pan-Islamism was undesirable to all non-Muslims because in an Islamic califate they are dhimmis. Most Christians opted for pan-Arabism and most Jews, who didn't regard themselves Arabs, opted for local patriotism. The Jews were quickly disillusioned by the way they were treated by their Arab and Muslim compatriots. The Christians, I see, might be murdered by some of their Muslim brethrens, which is cheered on by some others of their Muslim brethrens, and still consider Israel the great obstacle for Arab unity and the greatest evil in the Middle East.

In Jerusalem, before the foundation of Israel, the Jews lived in the most abject poverty and squalor and were abused by both the Muslims and the Christians. The Jews are supposed to be at the bottom with the Christians a degree above them and the Muslims at the top. And most of all you don't want to be associated with Israel in any way because it will be used as an excuse to brand you a traitor and punish you accordingly.

Sorry to see this—dhimmitude warps even the victims who are strong enough to fight back.

I'm glad the Jews were out to support the Copts in the first place, though. I hope this treatment doesn't permanently drive them off.

great point. it may make it hard for those still in Egypt.
the feelings of the muslim world about Israel are no secret.

This is sad. Islam threatens everyone but religious minorities in the ME are on the front lines of the jihad, particularly vulnerable because they live among the virulent muslims and are easy prey. Jews and Copts have suffered the wrath of islam for centuries but it seems that dhimmitude dies hard.

The Copts and Jews have much more in common than the Copts and muslims or the Jews and muslims and they should be allied against the muslim persecution of all non-muslims. Why in the world can't people set aside their minor, irrelevant differences and unite to defeat the most malevolent enemy the world has ever faced, islam?

I thought Copts were smarter than that - very disappointing. Those Coptic associations that organised the rally should issue a statement condemning the violent reaction against the Israeli supporters.

Dhimmitude or CASTEISM? Are the Jews the lowest caste or perhaps untouchables that are looked down upon by Christians and Muslims alike? Many Hindus would recognize this for what it is.
Or perhaps the Coptics are mindful of their folks back home getting persecuted again when they see coptics mingling with jews with isreali flags? The arab muslims are bound to have a field day with this.

You know what? Jews should not support the Copts. Why should we? F--k them. The Muslims talk about exterminating us, even on Egyptian mainstream TV you can see things like that. Will the Copts stand with us? Of course not, quite the opposite - they support the Muslims. Both want Israel destroyed. If the Copts could press a button that'll make Israel and all the Jews in it disappear they would, so why should we care? Let them explode with their beloved Arab brethren. Only the Chomsky and Soros type of Jews should support them since the Muslims, many of the ME Christians and the far-left Jews are brothers in arms against Israel, so they have a common cause that is more important than their own lives. What does it matter if the ME Christians will not survive the 21st century as long as Israel will be obliterated and no Jew will remain in the ME by the end of the 21st century either? Such a noble cause worth the sacrifice, doesn't it? Besides, it's all the fault of the Satanic Zionists that all that is happening to the ME Christians, it's all a Zionist conspiracy. If it wasn't for the Satanic Zionists they would all live in peace, harmony and brotherly love with their Muslim brethren like they did for the last 1,400 years.

F--k them! I'll take the Kurds over them any time.

Feeding the crocodile...?

I call this behavior the "Dhimmi Delusion."

Whether these Copts accept the support of a few Jews or not, the mere fact that they are demonstrating is enough to provoke violent reactions from the 'Religion of Peace', drawing attention to their dilemma is breaking the 'pact of Umar'.

They might not know that yet.

Expect the ummah to retaliate, in any case......

Bomb explosion hits S. Philippines, misses bus as target

A powerful bomb exploded Sunday afternoon on a highway in the southern Philippine province of Maguindanao but missed its target, a passenger bus loaded with passengers, a police official said.

Police general Felicisimo Khu, regional police director, said the improvised explosive device (IED) that was planted on the roadside by unidentified militant group exploded about 2 p.m.

Sunday in sub-village Malindeg, Datu Paglas town. The bomb exploded barely seconds and missed its target after a passenger bus packed with passengers traversed the road, Khu said.
http://www.philippinesnews.net/story.php?rid=41883041&ht=Bomb-explosion-hits-S-Philippines-misses-bus-as-target

Hello Doomgloom - I understand your point of view. Yes, we non-muslims should stand together. But sometimes and in some places that might not be possible. So be it. And certainly the national interests of erez Israel should have high priority, shouldn't be compromised in order to have some flimsy display of unity with Copts which might not even help the Copts in any practical way. Unity is not the priority. If it takes a certain amount of (real or apparent) disunity to further the defeat of jihad and containment of Islam, then so be it. (I say this as an American Christian).

Perhaps what this story shows is that some of the Copts -- not all -- have been dhimmified not only externally, but into their very souls. The same is true of a certain segment of Middle Eastern Christians in general, not just Copts. In particular, the Muslim masters forbid Middle Eastern Christians, on pain of death, from supporting Israel. The dangers of supporting Israel are probably so great that some Copts have gradually been terrorized into adopting Islamic attitudes toward Israel. The Islamic culture has terrorized and then raped their minds. And that is dhimmitude: soul rape. Bat Ye'or has written about it.

The pathologically extreme character of Middle Eastern Islamic anti-Semitism is exemplified in the following video clips:

From the Islamic World: Television Clips about Jews

Note: the themes in the soap operas and their characterization of Jews from Muhammad's time are taken from the core Islamic texts.

Part I: A Jordanian-produced Soap Opera Demonizes the Jews

Part II: A Jordanian-produced Soap Opera Demonizes the Jews

Part III: A Jordanian-produced Soap Opera Demonizes the Jews

Egyptian Cleric Abdallah Samak: The Jews, who Slayed the Prophets, Are Known for Their "Merciless, Murderous, and Bloodthirsty Nature"

Saudi Arabian TV Asks People If They Would Shake Hands With a Jew

Iranian TV shows professor lecturing that Tom and Jerry cartoons are a Jewish conspiracy

Saudi Arabian/UAE TV: Former Jordanian Minister and a Cleric Explain the Canonical Hadiths About Talking Trees and Stones Helping to Kill the Jews

Iran TV Clip: the Jews Kill People and Mix Their Blood with Matza; Syrian Author Says Israel Should Be Destroyed and the Holocaust Never Happened.

Lebanon TV Clip: Islamic Judge says: "The Only Religion The Jews Understand Is A Weapon or Rod On Their Heads."

If you were in the power of the people who see nothing wrong in the above video clips and who believe those clips tell the truth about Jews, you would have to be almost suicidal to support Israel. But is it worth living under the thumb of a totalitarian fanatic?

If we don't hang together, we'll hang separately. That's simple logic. There's no room for a cop(t)-out.

Here's a Kurdish Youtube video, a hommage to Jews in Kurdistan and Kurdish Jews in Israel (apparently he knows all the Israeli singers who do Kurdish style music):

It's full with Kurdistan and Israel flags, the US flag and also has an image of the Statue of Liberty wrapped in a Kurdish flag. It ends with a flag that combines the Isareli flag with the colors of the Kurdish flag, carried in public like some of the other flags.

Here's the top comment on the video:

"Israelis should know that they have a second country called Kurdistan. Israelis are most welcomed in Kurdistan.

Biji﻿ Kurdistan

Biji Israel !

please note : The title should be " Kurdistani jews" or simply jews from kurdistan. This is because jews are a nation of their own. Jews are semetics while kurds are indo-europeans !

The Jews lives in exile in Kurdistan as they did all over the world.

Jews are wonderful people. We kurds love them !"

Of course, the most Islamic Kurds who take their poison from the Saudis and Iran hate us, but compare this with the ME Christian suckers. We had a Knesset member, a Christian Pan-Arab nationalist, who gave information to Hizballah so they will hit only Jewish populations in Israel with their rockets and do it more effectively. We have Christians here who say they support Hamas. What kind of people are they? They hate us so much they don't care what Hizaballah and Hamas are doing to the Christians as long as they're going to destroy Israel.

There's this crazy western guy who claims the Armenian genocide was really a Jewish conspiracy. There will always be crazy anti-Semites that will claim anything, so normally I'd just treat it as a joke, but the disturbing thing is that he was interviewed on an Armenian TV channel and was invited to talk about it in some Armenian churches. Apparently some of the Christians hate us so much that they'll prefer to absolve those who committed genocide against their own people as long as they can use it to feed their Jew-hatred.

Of course, there are also Christians who support Israel, but they might be regarded traitors by their own people. In fact I saw a video from a night club in Beirut of very "westernized" liberal young Lebanese dancing to Israeli music. I guess it's not for nothing the Muslims say the Jews spread corruption in the land...

And Bhobby, you're wrong about unity and disunity. If all the non-Muslims AND non-Arabs in the Middle East had united, all of us would have had a much better chance. United we stand, divided we fall. Some people get it, some don't. Today there's even a small Amazigh (Berber) pro-Israel movement. Very small indeed and it does create trouble for the Berbers, some of which vehemently attested to their Jew-hatred (not just Israel-hatred) on some Arab TV network lest they'll be regarded traitors. They said they feel the Arab pain. Poor Arabs, they only control 14 million square kilometers of land and the filthy evil racist imperialist Jews "stole" full 20,000 square kilometers of the land the Muslim-Arabs once conquered and therefore consider rightfully theirs to the last grain of sand forever at the expense of everyone else in the region. When will the Arabs feel the Amazigh pain or anyone's but their own for that matter?

Keyboard warriors at it again. Pretty tough sitting at your desk and criticizing others. It is suicide to be seen as an ally of Israel in a country full of Moslem animals. you sit in judgement of these Copts that have family in Egypt that will be rounded up and killed because of a perceived alliance with the Jews. Put yourselves in their shoes for once.

Meanwhile, a tiny minority of extremists is filling the streets in Pakistan to protest the blasphemy law:

You can tell by the size of the mob, just what a tiny minority they are.

If it was just members of the crowd who were against this then it might have been arabic racism or It might have been that they thought these guys were riding their protest as an excuse to demonstrate for Isreal in some way- That's what it looks like to me and I am pro zionist. (i.e. let them have gaza and WB but toss them out of jerusalem and blow up that fucking mosque already- that pro zionist) It looked like these pro Isael guys were exploiting the copt demo, whatever their resoning was.

Also the arab propoganda organs are going to say that images of the Isreali flag at this demo is proof that the jews are involved in this and use that to fuel more anti copt sentiment.

And let's not forget: NOBODY cares when jews or Israelites are attacked. If I was a copt I would want people to care what was happening. If people confate it with anti jewish/israeli violence they won't care as much.

Interesting posts!

It's been my experience that Christian minorities in the M.E. have extremely mixed views on Israel and Jews, varying with country, education, sect, and age. In Europe and North America, in immigrant communities, while there's still a spectrum of views, they are markedly more positive. I've found that Christian Arabs in the U.S. of an evangelical inclination often tend to be all but Zionists, much to the benefit of their non-evangelical friends and family.

I think it important to remember that M.E. Christians still get most of their news through government-sanctioned media, which is (almost?) entirely sickeningly anti-semitic. And then there's the state approved curricula, which are not terribly different: Jews are responsible for the Mongol sack of Baghdad, Jews invented the toothache, Jews put the labia of Muslim girls in their matzah ball soup, et gorram cetera.

I'll not soon forget watching a Syrian friend, a former tanker and a member of the Syrian Orthodox church, as he met his first Jew after moving to Chicago. The exchange was all very polite. But from the look on his face, you could tell he was terrified, as if he kept expecting to see a proboscis of Alien proportions. A few years later, his closest friends are two Israeli expat and a Lubavicher.

On the other hand, a Lebanese Greek Orthodox guy I know still thinks Jews have tails. (Then again, he live in France, so the media is only slightly less anti-semitic than at home.)

On the third hand, I know an Egyptian bishop who talks quite differently about Israel when in public and when in private. The last thing he or his small community needs is to be accused of treason in addition to the more frequent accusations of hiding weapons or kidnapping converts, or worse, being uppity.

In general, though, I don't think I've ever encountered in a Christian community anything like the standard pablum of the Muslim illuminati, who see the hand of a Jew behind everything good that happens to a non-Muslim and everything bad that happens to a Muslim.

It's curious how such hatred ends up attributing to the Jews the attributes of omnipotence and omniscience. I wonder if continuing dismal failure on the battlefield and in development requires the creation of ever more powerful (and imaginary) enemies.

In 1967 it was Nasser and the big lie: we lost because the U.S. bombed us our planes on the ground. (Bad idea. Rule I: Never lie to a U.S. president. Rule II: Never lie about a Texan president.)

In 1973 it was that we won and regained our sacred honor, but alas lost, though only because the U.S. carpet-bombed us and Sharon is really a devil.

Now it's necessary to posit a two whole nations of devils, one infinitely powerful and one infinitely pliable, one to pull the strings and the other to dance and kill Muslims.

This illness of the mind ought to have been included in the DSM-IV.

Anyhow, point is, attitudes vary immensely. And while we all bear ultimate responsibility for our moral sensibilities, I can't help but think, too, that being assaulted daily with anti-semitic propaganda should somehow mitigate censure.

> jcl

http://www.russiaprofile.org/page.php?pageid=Experts%27+Panel&articleid=a1293216776

"The political regime these two personify refuses to recognize the reality that threatens to destroy not just the regime, but also the country itself. The reality is this: the population of Russia (not just the 79.8 percent of it that are Russians, but practically everyone else who is not a North-Caucasian) is under a sustained attack from the Muslim migrants from the North Caucasus – from Chechnya, Dagestan, Kabardino-Balkaria, Ingushetia, etc.

Those North Caucasus “republics” have either fully carried out ethnic cleansing (as in Chechnya, which has murdered or thrown out all of its non-Chechens) or are doing their damndest to squeeze out any non-natives still left there. But that’s just stage one. All of those regions are basket cases in terms of the economy (say, in Ingushetia unemployment is 56 percent), so the next stage is spreading throughout Russia – and as good as conquering it, taking over businesses, municipal and other administrative institutions, and behaving most aggressively toward locals.

A few factors go for the invaders. The Muslims, apart from being united in faith, mostly of the radical Islamist variety, are well organized. The organization is primitive, of the tribal or clannish sort, but quite effective. The invaded locals rely on the police and government to protect them, but they rely in vain. The police are simply suborned, as in the Egor Sviridov case and thousands of others, while the local and federal governments refuse to admit the fact of ethnic strife, automatically mumbling inanities about mere “hooliganism” where ethnic strife is plainer than the noses on their faces.

Another fact of life is that the invaders, one and all, are armed and are using weapons on the slightest provocation as well as without it. Their young have been brought up on Chechen (“Ichkerian”) videos from the two Chechen wars and hate all Russians indiscriminately. The weaponless Russians (Russian speakers, actually), accustomed to living in ethnic peace for decades, were slow to react at first. Manezh has shown that things are changing. Blaming Russian “extremists” and nationalists for this is plain pathetic. "

We can hardly criticise the Copts when there is massive hostility to Israel and antisemitism is endemic right here in the West. Copts live in a country which is 90% Muslim. What is our excuse? There they have to live from day to day, here it is merely the re-emergence of an old hatred led by the Left and the so-called progressives.

" It is suicide to be seen as an ally of Israel in a country full of Moslem animals. you sit in judgement of these Copts that have family in Egypt that will be rounded up and killed because of a perceived alliance with the Jews. Put yourselves in their shoes for once."

Point taken.

Wonder if Father Zakaria Boutros agrees with you. Or with us.

As an Copt, I agree with most of the comments here and have some points to add:
1- Allegations of diaspora Copts (especially U.S. ones)being pro-western, pro-American and "Zionist" have dominated Egyptian newspapers for years. Whenever any of their leaders speaks out against the Egyptian government, they start throwing those "charges." Pictures of Copts rallying with Isreali flags would be the equivalent of handing their heads on silver plate to the Egyptian government (and Islamist opposition) smear campaign.
2- You have to remember that Egypt has gone through 3 or so wars against Israel. Many of the people in thet demonstration have probably had a family member participating in that war (if not themselves). The Egyptian median has for ages (since I was born) shown TV series, movies, etc.. that talk of the many wars, espionage, etc... that have taken place with Israel. The amount of brainwashing is enormous. Pope Shenouda III has ordered a decree that prevents Copts from going to Jerusalem citing the issue of Deir Sultan as the reason (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/10/25/world/main4545797.shtml) although it is obvious he is appeasing the government and the general public (can we blame him ?)
3- If these people who are holding a rally for the Coptic cause, do not want it to turn into a pro-Israeli rally, for the aformentioned reasons, is it fair to describe them as anti-semites ?
4- If the pro-Israeli demonstrators had been Armenian , would we accuse the Copts of denying the Turkish genocide ?
5- Most of the Copts I've met in the U.S. were extremely Republican and supported the Iraq war (which was really surprising to me).

One more thing, we just had a MAJOR attack against us here in Egypt. People are shocked, scared, mad and grieving.
Cut us some slack :)

The title is clearly misleading. They turned against Israelis supporters when they decided to show their flags .
Was it an Israeli support rally ? NO
Are the Christian in the middle east enough accused of being Americans and Israelis allies ? Apparently not .
It was a clearly selfish act on their part to hijack the rally. It can have lethal consequences to them, the pictures of the flag will be used and re-used by Muhammadans.

Can someone please tell me what exactly Israel do to protect eastern Christians ?
Wasn't it because of the 1948 war and the Palestinian refugees that Christians lost their demographic advantage in Lebanon that would lead finally to the civil war ? (of course there is also a natality and emigration)
Is there no vexation against Christians in the "Holy Land" ?

Now for a quote:
". We should stand together as Jews, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, atheists, secularists, and resist those who would kill us or subject us to institutionalized discrimination."
Seriously do you guys really think Hindus are cool ? They burn churches and beat Christians to death in their country.

Each time we oppose halal food why rabbis side with them to defend ritual slaughter ?
If we oppose circumcision which is by the way prohibited explicitly by the Catholic Church, we'll we only face muslim opposition ?
Why every time we vote for a far right party in Europe the first state to condemn it is Israel, while the far right is the only way to stop islamisation and immigration ?

The manipulation goes both way it seems from Muhammadan supporters to Israeli supporters .

I would consider Israel an ally when it will stop condemning the far right in Europe. The only far right movement that Israel tolerate are the ones that are favourable to its politic. Europe must be free of Muhammadanism and of every alien political influence and I don't see why being against a flag makes you an anti-Semite . I thought being against the USSR flag didn't make you an anti-Russian, let's be coherent shall we !

I agree w/ Doom&Gloom!!!

It's one thing for Copts in Egypt to be Judeophobic, just to curry favor w/ Muslims, even though that too is cowardly behavior that would only serve to expose them. But the attitude of Copts even abroad illustrates that Debbie Sclussel is right - Copts, and a whole lot of other Mid-Eastern Christians - are Judeophobic as well, and there is no point in mourning the demise of ones enemies.

Much as I'd like to see all the world's non-Muslims unite against Muslims, we have to recognize that a lot of groups are simply unacceptably pro-Muslim and cannot be co-opted. The Copts among them.

InfidelPride, that is a wrong generalization ! Please see my comment above ! I personally am not Judeo-phobic and refuse that accusation.
The Copts are pro-muslim, are you kidding ?

^^^ As far as Israel goes, absolutely!!! I mean - who do the Copts support - Israel, or the Muslims? The latter, and not just within Egypt. Yeah, they may not be pro-Muslim when it comes to anti-Copt pogroms against Copts in Egypt, but that goes w/o saying.

You personally may not be Judeophobic, but a majority of Copts clearly are, including their pope, who referred to Jews as 'Christ killers'

DudeAbides

One more point in your earlier post - the reference to the 3 wars that the Egyptians fought - the last of them was in 1973, and since then, Egypt was the only Arab country that had a peace deal w/ Israel, and all that. After that, for Egyptians to have hostile attitudes towards Israel - who gave them back Sinai for Allah knows what - defies all explanations, other than the age old Islamic hatred of Jews. But if the Copts are going to buy into that, then they too are part of the problem, not the solution

On Coptic Christmas 10s of 1000s of Muslims in Egypt united with Copts and surrounded churches in Egypt to prevent them being attacked. Jihad Watch failed to comment on this. Different groups have different types within them. Some good some bad.

Vonbrucken

Good move - blame the Jews & Hindus for everything that doesn't go the Christian way. The last time any Christians were killed in India by Hindus was in the 1990s, under circumstances still not clearly understood, while your claim that Jews are pro-Muslim wrt halal food is perfectly laughable, as is the claim that Israel was responsible for Lebanon becoming Muslim.

As far as being against flags go, being against the Soviet flag at one time was anti-Russian, since there wasn't much difference drawn between Russians and Communism. It was only after the Soviet Union came apart that such a distinction started to make sense at all. As far as Israeli flags go, why would there be a problem in having them @ a Coptic rally?

You are underestimating the effects of years and years of brainwashing by Arab education and media !
By the way there are about 400 or so Egyptian companies that do business with Israel (exporting). This tells of the hypocracy this society feeds on: they may do business with them but would probably denounce them publicly or in social gatherings !

I personally don't care what the Coptic Pope says. He says a lot of stuff against Protestants (for example) in Egypt. He doesn't speak for me, nor does he speak for the majority.
Why do you make it sound like a yes or no answer ?
Again as previously mentioned, being critical of Israel in some of their policies is not equivalent to Judeophobea. I personally am totally against people like Hamas and obviously despise their ideology. As are ALL the Copts I know !
I am also critical of some of Isreal's policies. Do I have to support it 100% not to be Judeo-phobic ? I don't understand. Where do you draw the line ? On the other hand, I am 100% opposed to Hamas (as well as the MB, and the endless list of nut-cases)

I am actually more hard-line when it comes to the Jihad threat then ALL the Americans I know. The ones I know will all give you the typical multi-cultarist, relativist, PC approach and will never speak against the ideology. I try to explain to them, sending them evidence from their books, citing history, etc... but they will never admit to the threat of Islamism.
By the way, I am, after all commenting from Egypt. I hope this thing is anonymous enough :)

If we don't hang together we'll all hang separately.
Defeat the divide-and-conquer strategy.
Defeat dhimmitude.
Develop the unity of HARBITUDE.

In all this confusion, I will just add that in Sudan, when I spoke to a Christian southern Sudanese sympathetically about the Copts, I was told that they helped the Sudanese government against the southern people. I was shocked. Was it true? I still don't know. I do know that the position of the Copts in Sudan is precarious. That's all.

The ADI should have known better than to get those flags out. It is so foolish when we know how much hatred so many Muslims hold for Jews. This rally was not about Israel and by showing the Israeli flag it's almost as if they hijacked the rally. While I believe everybody ought to support Israel and Copts should never villify the Jews or buy into Zionist conspiracy theories, the ADI should have realised the trouble they would cause for Christians all over the Middle East, where many Muslims are just itching for excuses to do violence to them.

"defies all explanations, other than the age old Islamic hatred of Jews."

Or that other age old hatred of Jews hailing from Christianity. I'm really amazed that all of YOU are amazed that Christians could be *gasp* anti-Semites when Christianity is the religion that was historically the MOST responsible for anti-Semitic purges!

Did you fail to read the New Testament which effectively accuses the Jews of having Jesus executed (sallahu aleyhi wa sellam) for apostasy? What, you think they invented a 2,000 year old deicide charge out of thin air? It predates Islam by a longshot, why not accept the obvious answer?

The Romans had essentially zero interest in doing the deed. Approached by the Sanhedrin, they acquiesced but even in the final moments Pontius Pilate had absolutely no interest in seeing someone killed for his religious affiliation. The mob, of course, felt otherwise and the Bible famously states that they yelled "crucify him!" They knew quite well what the penalty was for apostasy, it was handed down from Moses (sallahu aleyhi wa sellam) after all. See the book of Acts, St. Stephen is also executed for apostasy. The Bible literally says he is killed "for insulting Moses and God".

Of course, Islam denies that Jesus (sallahu aleyhi wa sellam) was ever executed... Muslims don't believe this nonsense about Jews killing God.

Muslims never had to "divide and conquer" Christians and Jews because quite frankly you've been at each others' throats long before we ever showed up. Bat Ye'or is still a debunked conspiracy theory nut, anything she says today about "dhimmis" (not that she or any of you actually had to agree to dhimma under some medieval Islamic state) is completely her own delusion. Perhaps she's trying to rile you all up in favor of Israel? The enemy of my enemy is my friend?

Even if Islam disappeared tomorrow, Christians would still be accusing the Jews of having killed Jesus (sallahu aleyhi wa sellam) on the basis of their immutable scripture.

Remember you mustn't support Israel publically or you reputation will disapear.
These copts just want to have equal rights.
An Isreali flag in this demostration is just provocation.

The consummate ease with which people have 'forgotten' the recent and ancient legacy of atrocities committed against the Jews and the almost instinctual disinclination to question Muslim lies about Israel speaks volumes of the underlying antisemitism that is still rife in the West.
I recently finished reading In Ishmael's House, and sat slack jawed through most of it wondering how it is that Israel has been forsaken, that the Jews have been betrayed again, and for what: the empty approbation of a squabble of grimy charlatans.

Israel really ought to be seen as an inspiration and example to follow for the oppressed minorities whose ancestors were conquered by Jihad warfare. The Jews held on to their history and language even though the doctrines of Islam are determined to erase it. Israel represents emancipation from the tyranny of Islam, a situation the Copts need to aspire to.

Brainwashing by Arab media & education? All that brainwashing didn't make the Copts convert to Islam, so why did it have to work in them accepting the worst that was said about Jews?

Copts are going to be persecuted by the Muslims no matter what, Israeli flags or no, so why make it an issue? Just accept whatever support they get, no questions asked, since at 'home', Muslims are going to find some pretext or another for being @ their throats. The fact that some of them are willing to fight against the Jews makes it clear that they should be counted among the Jihadis, not separate from them.

Given that the Northern League has been associated with extreme right wing politics I'm not so sure that the Copts could or should accept support from it!

Terry

I had a friend who had an Egyptian Coptic background - his family had to leave Egypt, but he was very anti-Semitic and anti-Israel. His opinions were quite in line with boilerplate Islamic dogma. I think it's very hard to rise above one's environment. That's why apostates such as Nonie Darwish and Wafa Sultan are so exceptional.

Call me fickle, but my sympathy for the coptics has just gone down a notch. At least these ones seem to be Arabic first and Christian second.

*sits next to the real David in this battle against the Goliath is getting fatter and fatter and nastier and nastier*

"...It is suicide to be seen as an ally of Israel in a country full of Moslem animals. you sit in judgement of these Copts that have family in Egypt that will be rounded up and killed because of a perceived alliance with the Jews...."

Talk about "divide and rule". These copts will be rounded up and killed NOT because of a "perceived alliance with the Jews", but because that's what Moslems do to infidels anyway, they dont need an excuse, not even the pretense of an excuse any more.

@Infidel Pride --- "Brainwashing by Arab media & education? All that brainwashing didn't make the Copts convert to Islam, so why did it have to work in them accepting the worst that was said about Jews?"

Good point, sed contra dico:

The number of Muslims involved in the conquest of Egypt would not fill a rural town in the U.S. Let's be generous at say 20,000. Compared to the total population, these Muslims cannot have amounted to more than a fraction of a fraction of a percent. They were so few that they were afraid to live among the population, but instead lived in a small number of specially-built garrisons.

Where then did Egypt's Muslims come from?

A small percentage were converts from among the Arab nomads who had been in Egypt and Sinai for thousands of years. (Some such tribes are mentioned in the Hebrew Bible.) Most if not all of these tribes had, by the 7th c., long been Christian.

The vast majority of Egypt's Muslims, however, were converts from the native Egyptian Christian population. It took many centuries, but eventually Egypt was both Arabized and Islamize, first the cities and then the other 95% of the population living in villages -- apart from the app. 12% who refused to convert.

The same basic process can be found in the other former provinces of the Byzantine empire.

The Arab Muslims of Egypt are, ironically, Copts.

Contrary to the myths of pan-Arabism and popular usage, the term "Arab" denotes a language, not unique DNA sequence. The "Arabs" of Lebanon, Morocco, and Egypt, etc., don't even look like one another.

Cheers

> jcl

^^^ I'm talking about the residual Coptic Christian population, not the ones who've Islamized. Yeah, I know the Muslims had a virtual cakewalk when they overran the Middle East, and didn't run into serious resistance until they tried conquering beyond Sind. The point I'm making is that the Copts know very well that the Muslims have daggers drawn out for them, so there is no need for them to join in the Judeophobic sentiments, particularly when they are outside Egypt.

I fully agree w/ Rita & Jewdog above!

Actually, it's more complicated then this.
Basically, the whole population has been conquered by Greeks, Persians, Arabs, British, .. you name it. Trying to figure out the origin of these populations is pointless.
You cannot tell the difference between copts and muslims except my their full names.
Everybody's mixed. Also, huge Arab migrations to Egypt has occured for centuries after the invasion. This is why you will find many villages in Egypt that are named after Arab tribes. Many Egyptians (Muslims) can trace their family roots to an Arab tribe. Yes, Arab is a culture- not a race. I personally, refuse to be referred to as an Arab, yet it is something that I have no control over and this is how I am labelled by most westerners due to being Egyptian.
Again, diaspora Copts are always labelled as "Zionist" by the MSM here. This is why they try to avoid these issues. This incident can be hardly described as Jeudophobic due to the arguments presented by many commenters. It is easy for you to say "join in the fight," but it's different when you live here in such an atmosphere where anti-semitism is so ingrained in the culture here. The government and the islamists both benefit from it. It's not only anti-semitism. But most muslims will denounce Shiites and Bahais as infidels as well.
Cheers.

@ GargledPee

'...Christianity is the religion that was historically the MOST responsible for anti-Semitic purges!'

Historically! And now? How many Christian countries have leaders saying Israel should be wiped off the map? How many Christian terrorist groups are lining up suicide bombers to murder Jews. Where does it say in The Bible that Christians should commit genocide against the Jews? Why is it that Muslims complain about Christian America giving a few dollars to Israel?

Because it's only Islam that wants to commit genocide against the Jews.

You're a clown!

Oh totally, why I can't think of any major event in the 20th century that had its roots in the classic canards spawned by Christendom...

I'm the clown? You're in denial about the attitudes still carried by many Christians in the West to this day. It's a cute fantasy but really? Why do Jews remain the number one target for hate crimes across a widespread spectrum of people? Are all of those acts perpetrated by Muslims?

A few dollars? American aid to Israel works out to about $12,000 per person there not including our immeasurable global political clout and weapons technology. Of course Muslims are peeved about that, if some group of white people and North Africans came to my neck of the woods and told me they were claiming my land because the Great Realtor in The Sky said so I'd be pretty pissed too. There's calls to genocide in the Bible but not expressed against Jews. Of course, wouldn't that mean that Christians should somehow be inoculated against genocidal behavior toward Jews? Yet somehow Christians ended up killing more Jews than the Muslims ever could have dreamed of doing so... how's that work? Maybe it has something to with that 2,000 year old deicide charge... Yes, there are still Christians who think Jews are Christ-killers. The sooner you admit that they got that idea from the Bible and from a portrayal where Jesus (sallahu alehi wa sellam) is killed for apostasy the sooner you'll understand the true nature of monotheism. "If you don't believe as we do then you do not accept *the truth* and your error is therefore demonic." This is unique to monotheism, they're the only folks who see everything in such a duality. That is why Christianity is still going to sire genocidal whack jobs despite ol' JC being "the prince of peace". Alliance: Those Muslims courageous enough to show their support should also be invited, while they can. Also, about your question, "who is saying Israel should be wiped off the map?" Can you answer why Netanyahu referred to Iran as a "new Amalek"? How did God say to deal with the Amalekites? "And slay the Amalekites every man, woman, child and beast of burden." A call for total genocide, apparently parroted by a "misunderstander" of Judaism? Don't be foolish, he would easily justify the slaughter of gentiles, after all, our lives aren't worth as much as that of a Jew in halacha. Are you seeing the parallels yet or is it escaping you? These religions are all cut from the same cloth. Reverse the situation, place Islam as the religion of the West and Christianity as the dominant religion of the Middle East and Central Asia and I assure you that you'll find banana republics filled with Christian fanatic goofballs. Consider this, the KKK was once the greatest terrorist organization in the United States. This happened in living memory so don't say it was "forever ago!" It had membership in the millions in the early 20th century and also spread its terror to Jews and Catholics. Only a white Protestant could join... now why on earth would they target other Christians for sectarian violence? Didn't JC say something different?! It doesn't matter so long as Christianity remains an obligatory religion with no god but God. Fanatics will come out of the wood work and will probably draw from those fantastic old testament laws that Jesus (sallahu aleyhi wa sallem) specifically said he was not here to overturn! Support for what? Copts? Surely, as they are generally regarded as the eldest branch of Christianity in existence they should be supported if only to preserve a unique culture. I doubt most Muslims are completely unsympathetic to the problems Coptic Christians face in a dictatorship that receives massive funding from the United States... Say, why are we supporting Egypt anyway? Anyway, I'll be happy to march with Copts as long as I don't have to march next to people who want burn the Qur'an or engage in tacky nationalism. I am a Coptic and I am so sorry for the Israeli who were trying to share us our persecution.We appreciate your feeling and we hope to understand our sensitive position when dealing with Islam. I do not know whats really was going on in that demonstration but I will try to give you some reasons which maybe you did not think about it because you do not live as oppressed people under a "moderate" Islamic. First of all, Coptic do not hate Israel, its true that the black media of Islam was trying to blind every one Christian or Muslim about the reality of Israel and it succeeded in doing that in a far way but most Coptic does not fooled by it. So are these Coptic in the above pictures from the blinded minority ?I do not know but its unlikely. So what was behind them, move them and make them appear anti-Israel ? 1-They FEARED Muslims could think there is any tie between Coptic and Israel or at least terrorists spread that thing. why ? What does it mean in a Muslim country like Egypt? It mean the demonstration finally showed itself and maybe all the Coptic that they are TRAITORS,NOT LESS ... What do you think if Muslims in Egypt reached to that conclusion fostered with many terrorist groups worked out there ? The consequence is HELL upon all Christians living in Egypt IF ONE DEMONSTRATION GATHERED ANY ISRAELI FLAG. the demonstration does not want to add more troubles to the Coptic suffering. even those pictures above can actually cause some troubles to us. 2-So any demonstration has to act like any "Egyptian one" gaining the little sympathy from the Muslims and appease their little minds instead of turning the whole matter upside down and gaining war against Coptic from everyone in the street.so simply, they have to act like anti-Israeli Why again ? because unfortunately,Coptic live in fear and no actual help for them. So I think the main reason here is that Coptic FEAR Muslims and they do not want to reach such a sensitive point which stimulate the Muslims "already ready" to act against us in a new more wide-range atrocious way. Sorry again for the Israeli. The Coptic Pope Shenouda III continues to regularly deliver anti-Semitic sermons and calls Jews “Christ-killers.” And, in July 2008, he told Egypt’s Al-Ahram newspaper: Jews are a cursed people who have their hands indulged in the blood of Palestinians. He also forbade all Copts from visiting Jerusalem as long as it “remains occupied,” meaning as long as there are Jews there. But he is not the first to incite Coptic violence against Jews. In fact, the Copts were not only extremely anti-Semitic (as they continue to be), but they often led the Muslims in pogroms against the Jews of Egypt. There are almost no Jews left in Egypt, and the Copts joined the Muslims in calling for the Jews’ expulsion. Many Jewish homes and property were taken not by Muslims, but by Copts. As in the case of many Christian groups in the Middle East, the Copts sided with Muslims in their persecution of the Jews. The Coptic Church was one of the most anti-Semitic churches in the Middle East and the most anti-Israel. For instance, Severus Ibn Al-Muqaffa, a layman who became a top Coptic Bishop (the Bishop of Al-Ashmunein) one of the revered figures in Coptic Church history, viciously attacked the Jews and Judaism in his writings. While he often grouped the Jews with Muslims, whom he also hated, he often singled the Jews out for even more extreme hatred. That was in the 900s. And while hatred of the Jews has lessened in many Christian churches in contemporary times, the hatred of Jews in the Coptic church remains strong to date. Most Copts will not openly denounce or disagree with Pope Shenouda’s anti-Semitic incitement. Most of them support Muslim calls for Israel’s destruction. And one more thing: the protests, today, by Egypt’s Copts, against the attacks, still embrace the Muslims. Check out what Copts were shouting, as they marched: A Muslim and a Copt hand in hand to create a new dawn. Yup, a “new” dawn, where both sides still hate the Jews and want Israel eliminated. While we fight each, the devil laughs. Again, he is like a hostage inside Egypt. What do you expect him to do ? There is no evidence for the pogroms thing. In fact, many Christians were nationalized during Nasser's time and had to leave the country just like the jews did. I thought the purpose of this website is to fight an ideology. The case you're making is that you're generalizing against a whole group (copts). People are different. We're not a one pack of sheep. Also, it's not a separate religion- it is based on the same tenets of other eastern christian and catholic churches (which used to harbour anti-semitic doctrines obviously). Yes they were marching hand in hand. What do you expect a minority of 10% of the population to do ? The country was boiling hot and Copts were protesting everywhere. We all feared this would turn into a sectarian war where copts would be slaughtered. Some Muslim Egyptians were protesting what happened in the church and wanted to show their support. Isn't it the Christian way to accept their support ? What did you want the copts to do ? Johndoe Precisely!!!! Debbie Schlussel (that you are quoting): "The bombing of the Copts, as well as many attacks on Copts in Egypt by Muslims over the years, are a great example of how Muslims cannot live in peace with Christians. But they are also a great example of karma." No comment ! Why is that karma ? These were peaceful people attending new year's mass instead of drinking or partying (like I did). I am not sure where she got the idea that copts were leading pogroms against jews !! In fact, during ALL sectarian conflicts in Egypt. Most deaths were on the coptic side (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosheh_Martyrs) After reading her column, I feel really offended. We should always mourn the human loss of people from any religion whether we agree with them or not. Either Muslim fanatcis have infiltrated the increasingly vocal Coptic movements, to divide the Jews and Christians as usual, or that the original anti-Semitism which was started by Mohammed, has influenced the many Arabicized or Arab Coptics. The Coptic Christians are targeted intensively, by Arab-led Muslim fanatics since they, like the Jews of Israel, are bravely standing up to Islam and its arrogantly savage believers. Further, these primitive Muslim fanatics want to go 'purifying' the "Arabian kingdom" through such divide and rule strategy, from Christians and Jews. This is since their beloved Mohammed, the Arabic Pedophile creator of Islam, became the first one in history (so Hitler wasn't the first - he might have been inspired by Mohammed since Hitler loved Islam) to SYSTEMATICALLY racialize the Jews as a race as different from the Arab race, to justify their mass-murder, in order to commit the first racial Genocide of the Jews, in order to create supremacist and savage Nazi-like Arabic empire! I send this article and my comment below to the U.S. Copts Association at http://www.epouro.info/english/?p=108#comment-30: I’m so disappointed by the report today on Jihad Watch, on Anti-Semitism against the Jews in the Coptic demonstration in Italy – see http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/01/cutting-their-own-throat-copts-rally-in-italy-turns-against-israel-supporters.html. Coptic leaders must come out with strong statement and action against such unacceptable hatred of the Jews and Israel. This is my comment in Jihad Watch: Either Muslim fanatcis have infiltrated the increasingly vocal Coptic movements, to divide the Jews and Christians as usual, or that the original anti-Semitism which was started by Mohammed, has influenced the many Arabicized or Arab Coptics. The Coptic Christians are targeted intensively, by Arab-led Muslim fanatics since they, like the Jews of Israel, are bravely standing up to Islam and its arrogantly savage believers. Further, these primitive Muslim fanatics want to go ‘purifying’ the “Arabian kingdom” through such divide and rule strategy, from Christians and Jews. This is since their beloved Mohammed, the Arabic Pedophile creator of Islam, became the first one in history (so Hitler wasn’t the first – he might have been inspired by Mohammed since Hitler loved Islam) to SYSTEMATICALLY racialize the Jews as a race as different from the Arab race, to justify their mass-murder, in order to commit the first racial Genocide of the Jews, in order to create supremacist and savage Nazi-like Arabic empire! For Egypt today, think Germany in early 1933. Would you wish to blame the Jews in Germany at that time for not speaking their minds? Try to imagine what it must be like to try to shepherd a church in an environment like Egypt. Pope Shenouda can be disappeared, imprisoned, or worse, at any time. More likely, an NGO "proxy" would be used. Nor would the righteous indignation of the believers spare the mostly poor and mostly powerless members of his church. A few Coptic clerics have been more outspoken. We know what happens. Father Zakaria Boutros now has the honor of a 60 million dollar bounty on his head. And for what? He did what New Testament scholars do every day in a college classroom in the U.S. Don't even think about what happens if you preach the Gospel. Botros: I am a Copt. In my early 20s, I became a priest. Of course, in predominantly Muslim Egypt, Christians—priests or otherwise—do not talk about religion with Muslims. My older brother, a passionate Christian learned that lesson too late: after preaching to Muslims, he was eventually ambushed by Muslims who cut out his tongue and murdered him. Far from being deterred or hating Muslims, I eventually felt more compelled to share the Good News with them. Naturally, this created many problems: I was constantly harassed, threatened, and eventually imprisoned and tortured for one year, simply for preaching to Muslims. Egyptian officials charged me with abetting “apostasy,” that is, for being responsible for the conversion of Muslims to Christianity. Another time I was arrested while boarding a plane out of Egypt. Eventually, however, I managed to flee my native country and resided for a time in Australia and England. Anyway, my life-story with Christianity and Islam is very long and complicated. In fact, an entire book about it was recently published.'' Fr. Botros can now speak what he thinks. On the question of Israel, other Copts are also speaking what they think. National American Coptic Assembly, for instance. \begin{quote} The National American Coptic Assembly recognizes that it is in the best interest of the Coptic people to develop and declare a position regarding the Middle East Arab- Israeli conflict. Our outline of our position is as follows: We recognize the sacred right of the state of Israel and the Israeli people to the land of historic Israel. "The right of Return” of the Jewish people to the land of their foremothers and forefathers is a sacred right. It has no statute of limitation. The return must continue to enrich the Middle East. We recognize Jerusalem as simply a Jewish city, It must never be divided, She is, and shall always be, the united capital of Israel . The future of the Palestinians lies with the Arab states. A Palestinian state in Judea and Samaria constitute an imminent danger to world peace. We believe that the Wahabi/Moslem brotherhood religious ideology and its power structures are threats not only to Israel and other non-Arab, non-Moslem peoples in the Middle East, but also to world peace. It is our opinion that the North Atlantic Treaty Organization should be assigned the historic and critical mission of defeating this Islamic ideology and its power structures. We believe that the resolution of the Arab-Israeli conflict and the achievement of genuine peace in the Middle East can only be visible with the emergence of tolerant Islamic faith. The toxic combination of Islamic supremacy and extremism and Arab racism is the real enemy to peace in the Middle East. It must be defeated. In any current or future peace treaty among all parties involved in the Middle East conflict, the following must be part of such treaty : All parties to this treaty recognize Mecca and Medina to be the holiest cities in Islam, whereas Christian and Jewish parties to this treaty give up and surrender in full any and all legal and historical rights to these cities. All parties to this treaty recognize a united Jerusalem to be the holiest city in Judaism, whereas all Arab and all Moslem parties to this treaty will relinquish and surrender in full any and all legal and historical rights in Jerusalem and as such accept it as the united capital of the Jewish state. National American Coptic Assembly Office of the President \end{quote} I respect Debbie Schlussel enormously. She's a fantastic writer, sharp as they come, and has an uncanny ability to discern where the real dirt of a story is to be found. On this question, I can only hope that a fuller understanding of the situation would change her mind. > jcl @johndoe re Severus Ibn Al-Muqaffa Please remember that Severus lived in the early middle ages. His understanding of Judaism was not at all different from what one finds in the writings of any other church at the time, whether the various eastern churches, the Orthodox church, or the Roman Catholic church. I might add that Jewish writings about Christianity during this period were not all that nice, either. Nor do such writings differ much from the theology of the early reformers, some 700 years later. The good news in the case of early medieval Jews and Copts: neither often had the backing of a state and they were thus unable to kill God's enemies. When they had that power, however, they used it. This was just the way religions worked. (The comparison is not entirely fair. As the Jews had almost no coercive authority for nearly 2,000 years, they were spared the temptation to sin in this respect. But there are exceptions: in this period, the Persian occupation, right before the coming of Islam, or a century earlier, during the brief interlude of Jewish rule in South Arabia.) Thankfully, both Christians and Jews have figured out that God does not actually enjoy offerings of human blood. There are still exceptions: but now, both communities can proudly and honestly say that such exceptions are the work of nutters or a paroxysm of communal strife. > jcl This demonstration of ignorance is one prime example of why I am turning Humanist. Dear former brother al-Kidya, I just spoke to the Egyptian supreme court. In accordance with the requirements of shariah, we have decided to annul your marriage. I get first dibs on your ex. Allahu Asghar! Yahya > jcl People, People! Use you heads! Geller too! Spencer too! The Copts are not particularly anti-Jewish - they were afraid their protest would be taken over or diminished because people would think it was a pro-Israel rally rather than a rally to save the Copts and their families from being Murdered by the Savages who worship a book that advocates cold blooded murder as a holy option (the Koran). Also, the Muslims would claim that copts were not capable of calling out a crowd, and it was always a Jewish conspiracy. Talk about a lack of sensitivity! Think before thou writest! Please ! A few dollars? American aid to Israel works out to about$12,000 per person there not including our immeasurable global political clout and weapons technology.

What are you talking about? American military aid to Israel is about 3 billion a year (give or take a billion depending on your sources); Israel's population is about 7 million. This comes out to about $500 per person per year. Incidentally America gives similar aid to Israel's mortal enemy, Egypt. Israel uses this aid to help purchase American weapons (which are not a separate gift but must be included in the$3 billion). But the use of the word "technology" makes it sound like it is American expertise that Israel desperately needs rather than materiel and funding, Israel being a tiny and besieged--but scientifically and technologically advanced--country. In reality the sharing of technical expertise between Israel and America is mutual, it benefits America just as much as it does Israel.

As for America's "political clout", it is frequently employed against Israel's vital interests, since America's policy unfortunately has been to shrink Israel to the 1949 Armistice Lines, within which Israel cannot defend itself without permanent American guarantees.

One should not blame this on Muslims or Islam. Christian antisemitism doesn't need such encouragement to exist.

A friend of mine born in a Muslim country told me that if anything the indigenous Christians (Copts and others) were even more antisemitic than the Muslims. Where Copts recognize Jews as fellow victims, it's probably due to their educating themselves against bigotry here in the United States.

Shame.
Those Copts are afraid that any public association with Israel will make the matters even worse for their people in Egypt. But this cowardice will not help them, just the opposite.
Israel is the only one in the world who knows how to fight Islamic Jihadis. And all Christians should join it under the glorious banner of Zionism, just as those courageous Italians do, if there is to be any hope of defeating the Global Jihad and liberatng Christians from their Muslim oppressors.

Ruslan Tokhchukov, EnragedSince1999.

For approximately two thousand years, Christian European people and post-Christian culturally Christian-European people have utterly usurped the traditional religion of, and the cultural narrative of, and the cultural identity of, and have wrongly perceived, and hated, and perversely falsely accused, of horrific, and even cosmic, crimes, and repeatedly mass-murdered, and made perverse unjust persecutorial laws against, the Jewish people, and have continuously treated with obscene perverse sanctimonious contempt, which they have expressed as "I know you are guilty, you lying Jew", the Jewish people who have dared to defend themselves and their own people against the perverse obscene false accusations perversely and obscenely made against them by Christian European people and post-Christian culturally Christian-European people. Now, approximately seventy years after Christian European people and post-Christian culturally Christian European people murdered almost all of the Jewish people in Europe, Christian and post-Christian culturally Christian-European people are perversely falsely accusing, of horrific crimes, and are making perverse unjust persecutorial laws against, and are treating with obscene perverse sanctimonious contempt, which they express as "I know you are guilty, you lying Zionist", the country of the Jewish people, and the Jewish people who are daring to defend their own people - the country of the Jewish people.

Christianity is a religion that, as a tenet of the religion, holds the view that the Jewish people, an actual living ethnic group of people, are cosmically evil, and Christianity is a religion whose main tenet is the worship of a Jewish man (Jesus (Yeshua)) as a deity, and Christianity is a religion that was first adopted by, and most influentially modified by, a group of people (the Romans (the Italians)), who killed that Jewish man, and who had conquered, and were brutally occupying, the country of the Jewish people at the time that they killed that Jewish man, and who subsequently committed genocide against the Jewish people, and Christianity is a religion that, as a tenet of the religion, falsely accuses the Jewish people of having killed that Jewish man, and Christianity is a religion that utterly usurped the traditional religion of, and the cultural narrative of, and the cultural identity of, the Jewish people, and Christianity is a religion that was invented by an ethnically Jewish, culturally Greek, man (Paul (Saul (Sol) of Tarsus), and Christianity is a religion of which the structure of whose main tenet is similar to the structure of the tenets of Greek religious ideologies of that time - which were tenets that involved the worship of iconically symbolic mythological human personalities - which included a tenet which was the worship of a mythological human-born sun-god personality who, according to the tenet of the religion, redeems the world, and who, according to the tenet of the religion, was killed by the forces of darkness - the forces of evil.

To further state what is the case, I cite the following that Buzzie wrote which accurately states what is the case.

By Buzzie:

The consummate ease with which people have 'forgotten' the recent and ancient legacy of atrocities committed against the Jews and the almost instinctual disinclination to question Muslim lies about Israel speaks volumes of the underlying antisemitism that is still rife in the West.
I recently finished reading In Ishmael's House, and sat slack jawed through most of it wondering how it is that Israel has been forsaken, that the Jews have been betrayed again, and for what: the empty approbation of a squabble of grimy charlatans.

To present only an extremely mild example of, and the most mild example demonstrated in comments on this post of, the ego-protecting bigoted perverse wrong views commonly held about, and feelings commonly felt toward, the Jewish people even by culturally Christian European people who are intelligent enough, and therein decent enough, that they support the Jewish people even in this current environment in the world of massive global Islamic-Supremacist, and *Western*, *genocidal*, conspiracy-theory-ideology-based, bigoted, prejudiced, hysterical, imbecilic, racist, hatred toward the Jewish people, I cite and reply to the following.

John C. Lamoreaux wrote:

Please remember that Severus lived in the early middle ages. His understanding of Judaism was not at all different from what one finds in the writings of any other church at the time, whether the various eastern churches, the Orthodox church, or the Roman Catholic church. I might add that Jewish writings about Christianity during this period were not all that nice, either.

Writing that is the equivalent of writing: "I might add that Black writings about slavery in the southern states of the United States of America during this period were not all that nice either." or writing "I might add that Jewish writings about the German National Socialist Party during this period were not all that nice, either."

On this post, the following is writing from some of the many comments that were posted, by many commenters, defending the Copts at the demonstration who attacked the Jewish demonstrators at the demonstration who were advocating their support of Israel.

John C. Lamoreaux wrote:

For Egypt today, think Germany in early 1933. Would you wish to blame the Jews in Germany at that time for not speaking their minds?

Soylent wrote:

Remember you mustn't support Israel publically or you reputation will disapear.

What is in fact the case is that, in the world today, it is Germany in the 1930's. Today it is the country of the Jewish people, Israel, that is who the Jewish people in Europe were in the 1930's.

Defending, and standing with, the country of the Jewish people is what is the decent thing to do, and is what is the necessary thing to do in order to protect the whole world from the genocidally anti-Jewish modern Islamic Supremacist political movement, but, most importantly, to protect the whole world from the Western bigoted prejudiced racist anti-Jewish collusion with the genocidally anti-Jewish modern Islamic Supremacist political movement.

Slavery of ethnically African people by ethnically European people was abolished in the United States by the efforts mainly of ethnically non-African, ethnically European, people. Institutional racism toward ethnically African people in the United States was abolished mainly by the efforts of ethnically non-African, *ethnically Jewish*, people.

Yes, Jewish people who are trying to defend their own people against the current massive global Islamic-Supremacist, and *Western*, *genocidal*, conspiracy-theory-ideology-based, bigoted, prejudiced, hysterical, imbecilic, racist, hatred toward the country of the Jewish people are overwhelmed, and therefore awkward, and therefore, sometimes act unbeneficially in their efforts to defend their own people, but it should be non-Jewish people who should be defending Israel, the country of the Jewish people.

From the Milan daily newspaper Il Giorno describing the incident:

"A member of the Jewish community, wearing a kippah and with a flag of Israel on his shoulders, left the demonstration after a group of Egyptians invited him to leave in an abrupt manner, probably for fear that in Egypt the demonstration might be linked to Israel and create problems to the [Coptic] community. Another group of demonstrators on the other hand invited the man to stay, but he anyway preferred to abandon the demo."

Perhaps the intentions of the people involved were not so negative, just, as the above report says, the fearful response, however possibly misjudged, of a seriously persecuted community.

It is incumbent upon those of us who are professing, practising Christians and are free of antisemitism (pace Daniel's post above, it is NOT a central tenet or requirement of Christianity that all Jews qua Jews must be viewed as embodying cosmic evil! If one reads the Nicene Creed, the Apostles' Creed, and the Athanasian Creed, which are *the* definitive summaries of what Christians believe, you will not find *one word* about Jews being inherently evil, you will not even encounter the word 'Jew', you will be told only that Jesus 'suffered under Pontius Pilate' [i.e. the *Roman* governor] which simply serves to locate Jesus' death at a point and place in real-world history) to challenge those of our brethren whose minds are warped by antisemitism, and to pray that this particular sin - and it is a grave sin, a sin against both charity and justice, a flat violation of Jesus' teaching that we must love our neighbour as ourselves - may be removed from their minds and souls.

That said.

Note well , ladies and gentlemen, how quickly certain Muslims, and some others with whose names I am not familiar, leapt into this thread to exacerbate existing hostilities and work upon them so as to 'split the camp'.

And for 'doom and gloom', I do have one piece of advice. Never, never trust any Muslim entity by preference to a non-Muslim.

Kurdish Muslims may be making nice to Jews and saying all sorts of wonderful things, right now.

But I am not so sure that in past centuries life for dhimmi Jews in Muslim Kurdistan was a bed of roses.

FRom this website:

"The Jews lived under the Ottoman Empire and under the Persian Empire for many years and following World War I, they lived mainly in Iraq, Iran and Turkey, some lived in Syria.

"Jews lived in many Kurdish urban centers such as Aqra, Dohuk, Arbil, Zakho, Sulaimaniya, Amadia, in Iraqi Kurdistan, in Saqiz, Bana and Ushno, in Persian Kurdistan, in Jezira, Nisebin, Mardin and Diyarbakr in Turkish Kurdistan and in Qamishle in Syrian Kurdistan.

" Jews lived as well in hundreds of villages in the rural and tribal area of Kurdistan, usually one or two families in a village, where they worked as weavers of traditional Kurdish clothing or as tenants of the agha, landlord, the head of the village.

{Hmmm. 'Tenants' of a Muslim landlord. And we all know how wonderfully well that sort of thing works for poor Christians in Pakistan, and how it worked for dhimmi Jews in Yemen, where much the same kind of 'patronage' system applied...it was just another word for a species of serfdom or chattel slavery - dda}.

'Recently, an important book came out, by Mordechai Zaken, describing the unique relationship between Jews in urban and rural Kurdistan and the tribal society {the tribal MUSLIM society - dda} under whose patronage the Jews lived for hundreds of years.

'Tribal chieftains, or aghas, granted patronage to the Jews who needed protection in the wild tribal region of Kurdistan; the Jews gave their chieftains dues, gifts and services.

"The text provides numerous tales and examples about **the skills, maneuvers and innovations used by kurdistani Jews in their daily life to confront abuse, extortion and of greedy chieftains and tribesmen** {hmm: abuse and extortion and greedy chieftains...nuthin' new, that's dar al Islam to a T - dda}.

"The text also tells the stories of Kurdish chieftains who saved and protected the Jews unconditionally. {Hmm; and I'll bet they were the exception, not the rule, if I know anything about the Ummah - dda}.

Mordechai Zaken , Jewish Subjects and Their Tribal Chieftains in Kurdistan: A Study in Survival, Brill: Boston and Leiden, 2007.

"This book is Based on new oral sources, carefully analyzed, and explores the relationships between Jewish subjects and their tribal chieftains in Kurdistan,

focusing on the patronage and justice (sic - dda) provided by the chieftains **and the financial support provided by the Jews to endure troubles and caprices of chieftains** {in other words - JIZYA - dda}.

"New reports and vivid tales unveil the status of Jews in the tribal setting;

**the slavery of rural Jews** {nota bene - dda};

"**the conversion to Islam** {nota bene - dda}

" and the defense mechanisms adopted by Jewish leaders **to annul conversion of abducted women** {surprise! surprise! So Kurdish Muslims abducted and force-'converted' Jewish women; just as Muslims did in Iraq, just as Muslims do to Copt girls in Egypt, just as Muslims do to Christian and Hindu girls in Pakistan...- looks like Kurds were **no different** - dda}.

"Other topics are the trade and occupations of the Jews **and their financial exploitation by chieftains** {yup, that's what it's like to be a dhimmi: you're a **milch-cow**, when you're not being used for human sacrifices to allah, and your daughters and young sons are a source of sex-toys...dda}.

"The last part explores the experience of Jewish communities in Iraqi Kurdistan between World War I and the mass-migration to Israel (1951-52).

"The author, Mordechai Zaken, Ph.D. (2004) in Near Eastern Studies, The Hebrew University of Jerusalem, specializes in the history of the Kurds, the oriental Jewry, and the minorities in the region. He served as the Adviser on Arab Affairs to the Prime Minister of Israel (1997-99). "

daniel bielak, what lies are you promoting?! Don't try to divide us Jews and Christians by your most absurd accusation as if from Nazi or Islam's evil propaganda that Christians regard the Jews as evil! We Christians are ever grateful, that due to the righteousness of the Jews from Abraham's days, until our Lord Christ was 'born' amongst many righteous Jews including his family and Apostles, that we non-Jews i.e Gentiles, have also the chance to be saved, to ultimately know the only true God, renounce evil ways, and to join His Kingdom later on. Also thanks to the righteous Jews, and the great Jewish Prophet, Moses, Christians got the Ten Commandments that builds the foundation of modern Western laws and civilization (think about the savagery of the pre-Christianize Romans such as normalizing the most barbaric bloodsport with lions or gladiatiors), and our first written Bible! The history of the first brutal and systematic racial Genocide of the Jews in history, that include the wiping out the last village of the Jews in 627AD in extremely sophisticated and wealthy Khaibar (that now became part of Saudi Arabia), is by the Arabic Pedophile Mohammed, in his goal to construct pure Arabian kingdom, through creating Islam and its false, to justify such evilness – see http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf15.html#23 or http://www.andrewbostom.org/content/view/25/1/ or in the book Dr. Andrew G. Bostom (Ed.), The Legacy of Islamic Antisemitism: From Sacred Texts to Solemn History, Reprint edition (Prometheus Books, 2008, New York).
Mohammed’s army (even after his death in 632AD) then went on to conquer Christian Kingdoms in 718AD until the 15th. century, in the Iberian Peninsula, of what is now Portugal and Spain – See http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/history/world/2876-when-christendom-pushed-back and http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?ParagraphID=ebv#1741. Later on, more Genocide of the Jews, by Mohammed’s Muslim army when “…hundreds of Jews killed between 1010 and 1013 near Cordoba, and other parts of Muslim Spain; of the massacre of the entire Jewish community of roughly 4000 in Granada during the Muslim riots of 1066…” – see foreword by Ibn Warraq, a former Muslim and scholar at – http://www.andrewbostom.org/content/view/25/1/ . The Jews were spared earlier as they were forced or exploited to be used as soldiers, intellectuals (I suspect Mohammed used the intellectuality and writing-skills of the Jewish intellectuals, where many were also forced to convert to Islam, to plagiarize from the Bible and the Torah) and skilled craftsmen, against Christian majority. Thus violent Arab-Muslims, is suspected to have sowed the seed for extreme hateful and racialized anti-Jew belief and attitude amongst the Christians, who have co-existed with the Jews, although amidst religious conflicts, before in ancient Europe.

Doom-and-Gloom: I am very intrigued by pro-Israel attitudes among the Kurds, especially since the Kurds are a very Muslim people. But I also note that the once common Kurdistani Jewish communities are gone (their members emigrated to Israel, mostly).

But I also reflect that the Kurds were pretty savage to the Armenian and Assyrian Christian minorities in their midst, too. Perhaps, given that the Jews did not have a foreign, non-Muslim "protector" (such as the Christians of the area had in Tsarist Russia), they did not fare as badly as the Christian minorities of Kurdistan, but I suspect that the sources DDA cites are correct, given Islam's role in in the region.

Then again, I was recently surprised to encounter pro-Israel attitudes among ordinary Mainland Chinese, too, when the Mainland Chinese government quite frankly sees Israel as an evil catspaw of Western colonialism. But much Mainland Chinese pro-Israel sentiment may be very closely linked with Christianizing trends.

DDA: Good reply on how the creeds all say that Jesus "suffered under Pontius Pilate". And, if the New Testament, itself written by Jews about a Jew, is "anti-Semitic" then so are Hosea, Jeremiah, Isaiah, Amos, Micah, many of the Psalms, and Moses himself. The prophets of Israel, not the Greek philosophers, were the true fathers of the West's self-critical conscience; and that conscience got into Western and Northern Europe via Christianity.

katharina,

I am Jewish. What I wrote is true.

By your writing, in which you deny facts about the belief system which you hold which has, and about whose adherents have, caused extreme harm to the Jewish people, whose expression of feels painful to you because it threatens your wrong belief that you hold that you are superior, you have demonstrated that, although you claim to be a friend to the Jewish people, you are not a friend to the Jewish people.

Just because hearing certain facts may feel painful to you because hearing those facts threatens a wrong belief that you hold that you are superior, that does not mean that those facts are untrue.

You are, most likely, ignorant of the horrific traumatic experiences of the Jewish people in Christian Europe throughout the past over one thousand years. The evil of the actions that, and the quantity of the evil actions that, Christian European people did to the Jewish people in Europe throughout the past over one thousand years is unparalled and unsurpassed. You, and almost all people, are completely ignorant of this history because of the silence of, and silencing of, Jewish people. Christian European people damaged the Jewish people. I would not speak these facts if culturally Christian European societies were not, currently, engaged in colluding with an effort to commit genocide against the Jewish people.

I will not be silent.

daniel bielak, when was I demanding you to be silent - such disgusting lie! So you're supposedly Jewish and yet, you seemed to know more about Christian beliefs of the Jews as I've explained above; and still try so hard to promote great divide of Jews and Christians (many Muslim fanatics have pretended to be Christians or Jews especially online, to play the divide and rule game amongst Jews and Christians – this has been going on since Mohammed’s days). Evil people have hijacked both Christianity and Judaism but both religion which shared the same God, from Abraham's days, and the Torah forms a very fundamental part of our Christian Bible, is of no significant to a Jew like you? How come you don't comment on what I wrote about the first Genocide of the Jews by the Arabic Pedophile Mohammed, the creator of Islam, of which such Genocide and Jew-hatred had inspired extreme Jew-hatred by evil Christians and God-hating Socialists like Hitler, until today? And I, as a Christian, as many other Christians, who fees grateful to the majority righteous Jews, will continue be friends to the Jews - and you can't stop us, with your strange propaganda deceit! Looks more like Islamic propaganda to me!

“Western Culture, The Holocaust, and the Persistence of Antisemitism” by Dr. Catherine Chatterley
http://www.yale.edu/yiisa/chatterleypaper3509.pdf

“Worth a Thousand Words: Picturing the Antisemitic Imagination”, by Dr. Catherine Chatterley
further down from the top of the page on: http://web.mac.com/catherinechatterley/Catherine_Chatterley/Publications.html

“Antisemitism – from ancient times to the post-9/11 world”, by Clemens Heni
http://clemensheni.wordpress.com/2009/04/16/antisemitism-from-ancient-times-to-the-post-911-world/

katharina,

You, in your first message to me, wrote that, and you, in your second, last previous, message to me, wrote that, the facts that I wrote were lies.

You also are accusing me of propagating Islamic propaganda.

You wrote:

"And I, as a Christian, as many other Christians, who fees grateful to the majority righteous Jews, will continue be friends to the Jews"

If you, yourself, truly are a friend to the Jewish people, then that's fine.

Respect and be respected.

daniel bielak, do read the whole Bible, both OT and NT, to understand why Christians need to be grateful to the righteous Jews, such as our Lord Christ righteous 'Jewish family', believrs and Apostles! And I really suggets you read up true facts as by Dr. Andrew Bostom, The Legacy of Islamic Antisemitism: From Sacred Texts to Solemn History, Reprint edition (Prometheus Books, 2008, New York) and by ex-Muslim schiolars at - http://www.islam-watch.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=276:a-day-in-life-of-prophet-muhammad&catid=89:other-authors&Itemid=58. Or See -

Sharia Law for the Non-Muslim
Sunday, 07 November 2010 11:54 Bill Warner

"....In Medina, Mohammed sat all day long beside his 12-year-old wife while they watched as the heads of 800 Jews were removed by sword.[1] Their heads were cut off because they had said that Mohammed was not the prophet of Allah. ...Islam is 14% Allah and 86% Mohammed...." (At - http://europenews.dk/en: In - http://www.rightsidenews.com/2010110712066/us/islam-in-america/sharia-law-for-the-non-muslim.html

daniel bielak, stop accusing me and Christianity with Islamic-like propaganda lies with the intention to divide Jews and Christians, and you might get the respect! And by the way, Dr. Bostom is a Jewish scholar, who usually very intelligently, analyzes the root of Anti-Semitism, as originated in Islam since Mohammed's days!

katharina,

I stated facts.

You falsely accused me.

If you support the Jewish people and Israel, good.

I can't even make sense of your first paragraph because it's mostly one long, run-on sentence.

But this:

"Christianity is a religion that, as a tenet of the religion, holds the view that the Jewish people, an actual living ethnic group of people, are cosmically evil..."

Christianity teaches no such thing.

The responses by Christians to the facts that I wrote is unbelievable. It's as if, for them, two thousand years of history has just vanished off the pages of history.

Please see the articles about the legacy of malicious anti-Jewish bigoted prejudice from since over two thousand years ago until the present day, that I linked to in one of my recent comments.

This is a link to that comment.

Do you mean the same father Putrous that no longer lives in Egypt? If so, I believe he would agree with me. He would agree that people who have do not live in Egypt or have family in Egypt should not judge to quickly or harshly the actions of those who do.

So sit back in your comfy chair and judge those who have relatives in Egypt. The people on the front line. Throw a little fuel on the Moslem fire because after all the Copts are all gonna die anyway huh? What compassion you have. If 1 extra person is killed because of those Israeli flags then it is one person too many.

I don't know if this comment is directed toward me, since nowhere did I say anything about my own religious views. For all you know, I'm an atheist.

I didn't ask you to provide links to what Christians (or so-called Christians) have done or said. I asked you to provide evidence that Christianity itself teaches what you claim in your comment:

"Christianity is a religion that, as a tenet of the religion, holds the view that the Jewish people, an actual living ethnic group of people, are cosmically evil..."

TheDudeAbides wrote:

As an Copt, I agree with most of the comments here and have some points to add:
1- Allegations of diaspora Copts (especially U.S. ones)being pro-western, pro-American and "Zionist" have dominated Egyptian newspapers for years. Whenever any of their leaders speaks out against the Egyptian government, they start throwing those "charges." Pictures of Copts rallying with Isreali flags would be the equivalent of handing their heads on silver plate to the Egyptian government (and Islamist opposition) smear campaign.
................................

Just what I was going to note. From everything I have heard, Copts (and other Christians in Dar-al-Islam) are terrified of being accused of having 'Western' sympathies. You see this especially with Iraqi Christians, where it is assumed they all work for the Americans.

I'm sure this is even more pronounced vis-a-vis Israel. I am still terribly sad to see it, but I do understand.

This is something Islam has always done—keep the dhimmis divided and they are much easier to terrorize and keep in line.

Dear Daniel Bielak,

You are being somewhat unreasonable. There is something to what you say, but you destroy its value by exaggerating. You have done the same here before, as I recall. In another thread, perhaps a month ago or more, you indulged in some passionate and plaintive exaggerations, but then eventually ended up retracting part of what you said and apologizing for exaggerating. It's a virtue to be able to admit one is partly wrong, so I'm not complaining, but I'm here to tell you that I think you are again exaggerating and letting emotions carry you too far. (It happens to everyone once in a while.) You said,

"Christianity is a religion that, as a tenet of the religion, holds the view that the Jewish people, an actual living ethnic group of people, are cosmically evil..."

You never responded to dumbledoresarmy's extremely convincing answer to the above absurd exaggeration.

No one with a modicum of historical awareness denies that Christians (bad and false ones, of which there are many) have too often abused Jews during the course of history. Those "Christians" were not acting according to the example of JC. They were deviating.

And how could your statement I just quoted be true, given what dumbledoresarmy has pointed out?

Recall that Jesus was a Jew. And weren't all his disciples Jews?

You are also I think making a common mistake. You say something is terrible, but it never occurs to you to ask, terrible compared to what? Isn't it possible that other groups would have treated Jews with even more injustice than did the so-called Christian? For example:

...the philosopher Maimonides, a Jew who lived for a time in Muslim Spain and then fled that supposedly tolerant and pluralistic land, remarked, "You know, my brethren, that on account of our sins God has cast us into the midst of this people, the nation of Ishmael, who persecute us severely, and who devise ways to harm us and to debase us....No nation has ever done more harm to Israel. None has matched it in debasing and humiliating us. None has been able to reduce us as they have....We have borne their imposed degradation, their lies, and absurdities, which are beyond human power to bear."
Notably, Maimonides directed that Jews could teach rabbinic law to Christians, but not to Muslims. For Muslims, he said, will interpret what they are taught "according to their erroneous principles and they will oppress us. [F]or this reason ... they hate all [non-Muslims] who live among them." But the Christians, he said, "admit that the text of the Torah, such as we have it, is intact"--as opposed to the Islamic view that the Jews and Christians have corrupted their scriptures. Christians, continued Maimonides, "do not find in their religious law any contradiction with ours."

Whatever happened in the past, Daniel, the acid test is that almost all the Jews not living in Israel now live in majority-Christian countries, not in Muslim ones. The number in Muslim countries continues to shrink to the vanishing point. That speaks volumes.

You also seem to have overlooked the fact that a lot of evangelicals evidently still consider the Jews the chosen people. Evangelical Christians are perhaps Israel's strongest allies in the U.S.

It's fine to note that Christians have too often not lived up to their tenets in dealings with Jews. But keep things in perspective, and recognize where the main source of totalitarianism and anti-semitism comes from today, and probably has, for the most part, always come from: Islam.

traeh,

I, of course, I am aware that many adherents of Christianity now do not view the Jewish people as being inherently cosmically evil, and I, of course, know that many Christians support Israel, and, in many cases, do so in accordance with sympathetic bigoted prejudiced recently modified Christian tenet-views toward the Jewish people which they hold. I also know that many adherents of Christianity, still do view the Jewish people as being inherently cosmically evil, in accordance with traditional tenets of Christianity, and I know that many Christians do not support Israel, and even hate Israel, in accordance with malcious bigoted prejudiced views about the Jewish people which they hold in accordance with traditional tenets of Christianity.

However, what I am mainly talking about is *culturally* Christian-European bigotry that is an ancient, continuing, deeply engrained part of Western culture.

Excerpt from "Worth a Thousand Words: Picturing the Antisemitic Imagination", by Catherine Chaterley:
http://web.mac.com/catherinechatterley/Catherine_Chatterley/Publications.html

"The old proverb tells us that “a picture is worth a thousand words.” Indeed, for millennia images have been both influencing and reflecting the Western imagination. A central character in that imagination has been “the Jew,” a fictional compound produced over centuries by a confluence of complex, inter-related factors. Foundational to this construct is an increasingly hostile Christian theology in which the Jewish people are accused of killing G-d, in the form of His son Jesus. As a consequence of this accusation the entire Jewish community, from the first century through the twentieth, was collectively branded with the crime of deicide. It is worth noting the fact that no other religion in human history has ever accused a people of killing G-d. In the minds of Christian Europeans the Jews collectively rejected Jesus, had him killed, and continued to work against the Church and its Gospel. The Jews are therefore thought to be a criminal people, forsaken by G-d, and destined to remain outside the bounds of humanity (which for Europeans meant Christendom) until they repented and converted to Christianity. Based upon the Church’s “Teachings of Contempt,” an increasing fascination for, and fear of, the devil, and a new fixation on the suffering of Christ, the early middle ages produced a graphic demonization of “the Jew.” So explicit was this anti-Jewish demonization that the imagery of the devil and of “the Jew” converge. In Western imagery the devil takes on a stereotypical “Jewish” physiognomy, which is at the same time a reflection of the Western imagination, while images of “the Jew” become increasingly demonic. In some cases, Satan himself is depicted wearing the Jewish badge or some other form of obligatory Jewish identification, making the connection between “the Jew” and the devil explicit."

The reality of even only this important aspect of the history of Christian malicious anti-Jewish bigoted prejudice, and the reality of the legacy of even only this aspect of the history of Christian malicious anti-Jewish bigoted prejudice, is obvious and blatant. It's remarkable that Christians who hold a recent modified version of the religious ideology Christianity, which is a modification that does not view the Jewish people as being inherently cosmically evil (but which still, of course, views Jewish people as not being normal human beings), refuse to acknowledge the reality of even this important aspect of the history of Christian malicious anti-Jewish bigoted prejudice, and the reality of the legacy of even only this important aspect of the history of Christian malicious anti-Jewish bigoted prejudice.

I'll again cite the following true statement that Buzzie made.

The consummate ease with which people have 'forgotten' the recent and ancient legacy of atrocities committed against the Jews and the almost instinctual disinclination to question Muslim lies about Israel speaks volumes of the underlying antisemitism that is still rife in the West. I recently finished reading In Ishmael's House, and sat slack jawed through most of it wondering how it is that Israel has been forsaken, that the Jews have been betrayed again, and for what: the empty approbation of a squabble of grimy charlatans.

Once again, you repeat "and I know that many Christians do not support Israel, and even hate Israel, in accordance with malcious bigoted prejudiced views about the Jewish people which they hold in accordance with traditional tenets of Christianity."

Either show me where Christianity teaches this or stop repeating these lies.

Thank you.

Mo,

Either you did not read all of my comment, and, in particular, the excerpt from the article "Worth a Thousand Words: Picturing the Antisemitic Imagination", by Catherine Chatterley that I included as part of my comment, or you are incapable of being reasoned with. If it is the former, please read it. If it is the latter, there is nothing more that I will say to you.

Spare me your patronizing tone. I didn't ask for quotes from Christians or those who call themselves Christians. The Bible teaches no such thing and you know it. That's why you cannot produce any evidence.

I see.

For you, actions of millions of people who, for over one thousand years, acted in accordance with a belief which they held which was an interpretation of words on a page which was an interpretation that they called Christianity means nothing.

To you, only a recent interpretation of words a page which is an interpretation that you call Christianity which you adhere to as your self-identity view means anything.

Look in the mirror before you call anyone else patronizing.

I want to add a few comments on this issue, which in my opinion is the most vital issued discussed for a long time.

I want to speak AGAINST the very first comment made here and also against the comment by "Bhobby" a few down from that

Both of these comments, and this is augmented in other comments by other people, make the case that it was wrong for the Jews taking part in this demonstration supporting the Copts, the “Amici di Israele – Friends of Israel”, to have made their presence known, AND IT WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER THEY SUGGEST TO KEEP their Israeli flags snug in their knapsacks.

I cannot really find the words to describe this thought, but despicable would be a start!

What kind of demonsatration was this if the Jews, our beloved friends so oppressed by history, could not attend under their own flag.

The idea that by displaying the Israeli flag could or would harm Copts back home in Egypt, that the fascist antisemites in Egypt would use this presence of Israelis supporting the Copts, and would attack the Copts even more, well that idea is so cowardly and is so lacking in human never mind revolutionary and progressive principles, one does not know what to say in answer. Further they do not understand the psychology, even yet, of the Islam bully. Retreat and submission does not lead to a better deal or fair play

I notice that Robert Spencer in the initial post has made a clear call for a unity against the growing Fascist Threat of Islam

Long long overdue. I have been calling for this very thing with not a lot of success especially on the website Israpundit for a very, very long time

Yet Robert Spencer is not quite, in my opinion, there yet and this episode in Milan and concerning our very close colleagues - “Amici di Israele – Friends of Israel” - show the way forward

It is absolutely vital that the correct lessons are drawn.

Some of these lessons are the following

1. It was absolutely correct for “Amici di Israele – Friends of Israel” to take part in this demonstrations to fight alongside their oppressed brothers in the Christian Coptic religion, against both the medieval fascists of Islam, their modern reincarnation in the present Jihad, AND their supporters and facilitators of the west in Bush/Obama and the EU/British bourgeois and antisemitic bureaucrats

2. It was absolutely correct and necessary for “Amici di Israele – Friends of Israel” to unfurl their Israeli flag

3. But it was totally inadmissable that the Israeli flad was held aloft only at the end of the demonstration. This was Italy, a country of Europe, a land supposed to be based on freedom of speech. It was therefore absolutely imperative that our colleagues in “Amici di Israele – Friends of Israel” should have marched to the demonsration with their Israeli flag aloft, plus any other slogans which they might deem apt, and at every point in the proceedings to have taken part in the demonsatration against fascist Islam under their own colours

Anything short of that is a total surrender to the prevailing climate of antisemitism inside bourgeois Media and left fascist circles. it would otherwise be a sordid adaptation to Islam and to the promoters of Islam who are in the Media and who have been given so much encouragement by Bush in his limp reaction to 9-11 and to the non American citizen Obama

So Robert Spencer has pointed the way in calling for a unity between all those who oppose the growing Fascist Islam threat over so much of the globe

But Robert left out this important essence

All those taking part in the United Front do so without for a single second dimming or diminishing their own particular message.

The essence of Unity is to enable the discussion to 1. take place and 2. be continued (that is not snuffed out by reactionary legislation, for example against Internet etc)

Why is this so important that this discussion takes place?

I answer like this: because the forces which are going to be really decisive have not fully entered into the battle

Jihadwatch and Atlas Shhrugs are wonderful initiatives, but initiatives nevertheless

There are something like 300 millions living in the great freedom stronghold which is America.

The stirring campaign by Robert Spencer and Pamela Geller against the ruffian but more importantly jihadist Rauf and his female islamist friend Daisy Khan, well we saw the results, a stirring demo on the 9-11 demo. which dwarfed the left fascist stalinist and very dubious ANSWER et al

That was stirring but just an indication of the striving for freedom against Obama, against the fascist left leanings to political correctness etc, which lies inside the hearts of hundreds of millions literally of American workers, farmers, clerks, students, youth, children etc etc.

Rather than hide political aspirations and political differences we have to in the world at large develop a political discussion where these political issues are openly discussed, as to what is happening in the world, where have we come from, where are we going etc..

This is the greatest task, and is also the most onerous task. It will not be easy.

That is why this is a plea for freedom of discussion at all points.

Our colleagues in “Amici di Israele – Friends of Israel” were right to wish to represent Jews and Israel in this demonstration

I feel that they should have approached the Copts in preparation for the demonstration and said to the effect

1. We support and defend you and will always do so AGAINST SHARIA AND ISLAM

2. We wish to show this by participating in your demo

3. But with the strict and not to be negotiated proviso that we do so under our own banner and flag

In those conditions the Christian Copts could have said Yes, Welcome, in which case a strong principle and precedent would have been set down

Or they may have said no, and if they said no that would not be the end, but only the beginning of the struggle as far as our friends “Amici di Israele – Friends of Israel” were concerned

IF BARRED BY THE COPTS OUR FRIENDS WOULD HAVE MADE THIS KNOWN TO JIHADWATCH ET AL, BUT WOULD HAVE MADE IT CRYSTAL CLEAR THAT THEY STILL DEFEND THE COPTS

Those are the true principles of the United Front, fought for over many many years by Leon Trotsky in conflict with the Popular Frontism of Stalinism

There are great lessons in the courage of our colleagues in Italy, “Amici di Israele – Friends of Israel”, and yet in their shortcomings, not understanding fully why the principles of the Trotskyist United front are so important in our world today, huge dangers which they need to now discuss

ALL TOGETHER AGAINST THE COMMON ENEMY...ISLAM

FULL FREEDOM OF DEBATE INSIDE THIS UNITY

Daniel

do you seriously think that those of us here who identify as Christians, and wholeheartedly support Israel, and do not hate Jews as such, nor accuse them of 'killing God', are acting and thinking as we do *in despite* of, or in direct and conscious contradiction to, core tenets of our faith and scripture; that if we do *not* hate Jews, this must mean that we are unorthodox or 'slack' Christians, Christians-in-name-only, in the same way as peaceful Muslims are 'slack' Muslims or 'Muslims-in-name-only'?

I do ask you, though, to read Corrie Ten Boom's 'The Hiding Place', which tells the story of Corrie and her father and her sister Elisabeth - all deeply-devout Dutch Reformed Christians, who hid Jews in their house during World War II, and went to the concentration camps (where her father and sister both died) rather than betray their hidden guests.

Do you think that Corrie, when she risked her life to help and hide Jews, did so *in spite of* her Christian faith, or *because* of it?

That is: do you believe that she knowingly defied or disobeyed central teachings of her religion, when she hid Jews in her house, to save them from the Nazis?

But if you want to argue that, you do have to get around the fact that at the moment when she realized what the Nazis in Holland were doing to the Jews, she prayed a prayer that went roughly like this: "Lord Jesus, I offer myself for your people. Any time. Any thing".

That is: deeply aware that Jesus, whom she loves and worships as Lord and Saviour, is - in his human aspect - JEWISH, she commits herself to help his closest human kin, the Jews. She quite naturally and simply sees Jews not as Christ's *killers* but as Christ's *kindred*, the people in whose faces she sees *his* face.

dumbledoresarmy,

I do not think that you and other people such as yourself who hold views of the religion Christianity and who hold sympathetic views toward Jewish people hold sympathetic views toward Jewish people in spite of the views of the religion Christianity that you and they hold, which are interpretations of religious texts of the religion Christianity.

I appreciate the feelings of kindness and sympathy and affection for Jewish people that you feel, but I wish that you would feel kindness and sympathy and affection for Jewish people not because of how a religious view that you hold holds Jewish people, but rather, only because you felt kindness and sympathy and affection for Jewish people as fellow human beings.

I do know, though, that all of the feelings that you feel, and all of the views that you hold, are, in fact, feelings that you, yourself, feel, and are, in fact, views that you, yourself hold, and I know that you are a kind person, and I appreciate your kindness, and I appreciate you.

Felix,

Thank you for your support of the Jewish people, and thank you for your support for full freedom of debate among all of us who are opposing the modern Islamic Supremacist political movement (which is a revival of authoritative Islam), and who are opposing the Western collusion of the modern Islamic Supremacist political movement, and thank you for your support for friendship between all of us who are opposing the modern Islamic Supremacist political movement and who are opposing the Western collusion with the modern Islamic Supremacist political movement.

Felix,

I do, though, know that the idealistic sympathetic views that you hold about Marxism are wrong.

But I think that that is not important right now.

Maybe, in another forum, or another medium, we can discuss that.

I am a Coptic just want to say that all Coptic know that if one day they make anything, demonstration or whatever shows a tie or even a sympathy toward Jews that day will be their END its equivalent to our sudden annihilating and killing by a way never mentioned in history.So what can they do ? let anyone answer me. They do not have weapons or army and no country in the world stand beside them in practical manner.I do not know why
The Coptic has in many ways to appease their mad ruler and calm him down.The Coptic is not coward they are weak very weak oppressed for long time without one help.
What happened in the demonstration just show how the Coptic are deeply oppressed and in great FEAR.they want your help.NOTHING help us but our GOD alone. They do not think in Israel in political terms.
Sorry for the Israeli,hope you understand what pressure upon us.

gamal,

I understand, and appreciate, the predicament that you are in. I hope that you are feeling o.k.

Love,
Dan

gamal,

I am very sorry about the situation that you are in. I feel very badly for you. I wish that I could help you, but I am in a difficult health situation. I hope that you are feeling o.k.

Maybe you could contact organizations that are working to stop the Jihad.

I suggest the organization EMET - Endowment for Middle East Truth - ("emet" means "truth" in Hebrew) which is run by Sarah Stern who is Jewish and who is American and who is very active in working to stop the Jihad, and who is very active in working to help people in the Middle East who are being persecuted by the Jihad. She works with, and hosts, people from the Middle East who are working to stop the Jihad, and he works with influential people in the United States who are working to stop the Jihad, including some members of the government of the United States. Maybe she could help you.

http://www.emetonline.org/

contact: info@emetonline.org

gamal,

The following is a link to videos of seminars and speaking conferences hosted by EMET.

Daniel,

Thank you so much for your understanding and encouragement to us to move to an action to stop jihad.Thank you so much indeed.
God bless you and your country.

Really,I am not optimistic about end jihad or finish it in the world.All we need is that our government WORK REALLY to stop jihad against us, actually,THEY DO NOT...
(They like it when they see us being killed,They do not punish anyone and so on).

So maybe EMET or whatever do something to uncover this government and expose their real fanatic mind and strategy.I hope so soon.

Thanks again Daniel.

The Egyptian national security forces HIT a church after the attack.
Its the "Muslim's sorry" to us.
Its "we are here to save your soul Christians".
Who is with us ?
Just God alone and he is enough.

sorry it was not a church as i said above but it was the hospital where the victims were

gamal,

What I mainly meant to say is that EMET also very much works to protect the human rights of people in Muslim States. Maybe they can help you.

Maybe they can help the coptic community in Egypt.

gamal,

You wrote,

"So maybe EMET or whatever do something to uncover this government and expose their real fanatic mind and strategy.I hope so soon."

Yes, I think that's what maybe they can do.

I think that EMET also works with some influential people from Israel.

I'm American, and I'm Jewish, and I'm really concerned for the well-being of Israel, and I'm concerned also for the well-being of the whole world.

We're really all in this together. And the defenseless communities in Muslim states, most of whom, I think, are Christian communities in Muslim states, are the people who are in the most danger. Maybe if Israel and the defenseless communities in Muslim states, and especially Christian communities in Muslim states, contacted each other, and worked together, and helped each other, and communicated to the world what the situation is, then that could help the situation by showing the West what the problem really is - Islamic Supremacism.

@ Daniel B.

I am not sure why this is so difficult to understand.

Christianity is based on a book, the Bible.
Show me where the Bible teaches such things.

Or, you could look to its founder, Jesus of Nazareth.
Show me where Jesus taught Christians to hate the Jews. It wouldn't even make sense for Him to do so, since He was Jewish!

Your continued accusations make zero logical sense.

Goodbye.

I'm disappointed. Essentially, what I read from the pro-Coptic posters here are mere excuses for being anti-Jewish. Sorry, but ain't buying! If you are going to be such cowards that you're afraid of Muslims doing things that they're going to do anyway, then you deserve no sympathy, and deserve what you have happening to you.

And more.

Infidel Pride,

The Christian The pro-Coptic posters may not be Coptic. They are probably not Coptic.

gamal, is Coptic Christian, and I think the views he has expressed in his comments may reflect the views of many (maybe or maybe not a majority of, or maybe or maybe not a large minority of Coptic Christians. Coptic Christians are in a difficult situation right now and it appears to me that at least some are not hostile to Israel.

What is disturbing is that Christian posters here are denying, and what is more disturbing, seem actually to be ignorant of, the fact that for approximately 2,000 years, almost all Christians of every denomination of Christianity - Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Protestant - believed, because they were taught, by the clergy of every denomination of the religion Christianity, that "The Jews" killed Jesus (Yeshua), whom they called the son of God, and that they Jews were the children of Satan, and that the Jews were damned for all eternity by God. This is fact. In the same way as it is fact that humans breath air. For approximately two thousand years, Christian Europeans hated Jewish people, and repeatedly mass-murdered Jewish people in Eurpope, and made and enforced discriminatory persecutorial oppressive laws against Jewish people in Europe. This is fact. The Jewish people whose families come from Europe are a are traumatized psychologically wounded people because of what was done to them by Christian Europeans. It is horrifying that Christians have replied to my stating these well-known obvious facts by utterly outright denying these facts and calling me a liar. It is unbelievable. It is horrifying. It is evil. No Christian who has commented on this post has even come to my defense and stated that these obvious well-known facts are true. People who adhere to the religion Christianity are people who adhere to the religion Christianity.

I know who real friends are, and I know who real friends are not.

Again I say the following.

The the legacy of this two-thousand-year-old Christian malicious anti-Jewish bigoted prejudice, is manifest as the antipathetic anti-Jewish bigoted prejudice that is a deeply engrained normal part of the culture of Western (culturally Christian-European - Christian and post-Christian) societies.

Again I cite the following comment by Buzzie.

The consummate ease with which people have 'forgotten' the recent and ancient legacy of atrocities committed against the Jews and the almost instinctual disinclination to question Muslim lies about Israel speaks volumes of the underlying antisemitism that is still rife in the West. I recently finished reading In Ishmael's House, and sat slack jawed through most of it wondering how it is that Israel has been forsaken, that the Jews have been betrayed again, and for what: the empty approbation of a squabble of grimy charlatans.

I apologize for my typographical grammatical mistakes.

Daniel,

You have not acknowledged any distinction between 1) how the New Testament tells people to behave, and 2) the actual historical behavior of some of the people calling themselves Christians. That's a key distinction. Three or four people on this thread have been urging that distinction upon you. But in your replies you said nothing at all about it, as though the distinction had never once been mentioned. And though you don't say "aye" or "nay" or in any other way acknowledge the distinction in question, yet pointing out the distinction was the main content of the objection raised against your statements here.

Daniel,

gamal, is Coptic Christian, and I think the views he has expressed in his comments may reflect the views of many (maybe or maybe not a majority of, or maybe or maybe not a large minority of Coptic Christians.

Daniel,they are the views of the majority of Copt,Under their Oppressed rulers they learn to not believe their black media brainwasher machine.
Daniel,Jews lived in Egypt not so long ago and Copt knew how Jews were good and intelligent people.Unlike Muslims Copt has nothing prevent them to judge Jews unfairly.
Some of the hate Copt gain is from their fair opinions about Jews.Some Muslims have this good views about Jews but they are very small minority.

I agree with you that for so long there were some Christians
who had some views anti-Jewish.These people have no place with us Copt.

However,From rough religious point of view,when talking about Christianity and how it view Israeli people you can look into the New Testament to see how our God loves and cares for this special people of his own.

Sometimes,Some say Jews the children of Satan or whatever,anyway they do not mean the Jews people but any unbeliever.I think this language is offensive and anti-the New Testament as well.

love,
gamal.

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