From "Lady Warsi and the concept of extremism," by Andrew Brown in The Guardian, January 20 (thanks to James):
The problem here is that the division of Muslims into "extreme" and "moderate" strengthens the underlying pattern that to be extremely Muslim is to be an extremist Muslim. This is an equivalence that the preachers of hate on both sides, from Robert Spencer to Anwar al-Awlaki, would happily agree. Indeed it is the starting point of their analysis of the world. But the rest of us, and the government, have to prove it is an entirely false equivalence.
Let's go to the videotape: Al-Awlaki has used the laws of jihad to justify theft by Muslims against non-Muslim Westerners. He has called for the murder of cartoonist Molly Norris, who lost her identity and her job as a result. He has inspired countless jihad plots, and in many cases had direct contact with the would-be jihadists; these include the recent London Christmas plot; the Fort Hood jihad massacre; the Detroit Christmas underwear jihad plot; and 9/11 itself.
How does my record stack up? Well, let's see: I have never justified theft by anyone; never called for anyone's murder; and never justified, inspired, incited, encouraged, participated in, or exhorted anyone to commit any terrorist attacks. I've had no involvement in any terror plotting or contact with any terrorist.
On what grounds, then, does Andrew Brown equate me with al-Awlaki? Because, he says, we are both "preachers of hate." So apparently in Andrew Brown's world, working through violent means to impose an authoritarian political system denying the freedom of speech, the freedom of conscience, and equality of rights of women and non-Muslims is essentially the same thing as working to resist the imposition of that system and defend freedom and human rights.
Clearly, Andrew Brown is an intellectual and moral imbecile, or something worse.
For Andrew Brown to casually make such libelous statements against Robert Spencer only shows that Andrew Brown is a shameless liar and bigot. Maliciousness and utter dishonesty seems to be second nature to Andrew Brown.
DEAR Mr. Spencer:You are not preaching hate! You are enlightening the world (at least to those who are listening) by repeating news articles about Islam and its evil agenda! Any one who equates you with Awlaki is being intellectually DISHONEST! Telling the truth is NOT HATE MONGERING! Send your article to the English Defense Leaque and raise the issue in British society. Remember what the one true God says; WOE TO YOU WHO CALL EVIL GOOD AND GOOD EVIL! To Himand Him alone are we to give an account for our lives, and you, in my humble opinion, are doing very well, fighting the good fight!
The Guardian, and its ilk, would run to the secure bathroom leaving their 5 year old granddaughter behind on the couch. That is the soul of these people.
Hah, Robert, your feeble argument that you aren't a preacher of hate because you've never actually preached hate might hold up in sham Western courts based on feeble human laws, but in a real court, based on the immutable law of Allah -- i.e. a sharia court -- your guilt would be manifest in an instant.
Guardian: Spencer = Al-Awlaki
...........................
Grotesque calumny.
The idea that calling for violence, oppression, and "hate" is the same thing as *noting that others are doing this, and condemning their actions* is morally equivalent shows either the most appallingly slovenly reasoning, or else the most appalling standards of ethics.
I’m glad Andrew Brown wants to ditch the wholly imaginary ‘moderate/extremist’ division vis-a-vis Islam. He may be (unwittingly) helping to advance the dialogue.
Those people are libelers, and hopelessly delusional. That's why we're losing our culture and safety.
Ignore Warsi and the Guardian.
Why?
The Guardian is on the way out in it's present form. Haemorraging money, readership and now ad revenue following the Tory cuts it's just about hanging in there.
For JW readers interested enough, try the Cifwatch site detailing the egregious slander the Guardian Comment is Free section always leaps to whenever Israel is the topic.
Melanie Phillips description of this once august medium was as a swamp and she's dead on the mark.
As for Warsi? What to make of this turncoat? Once none hyphenated British she's blown that out of the water with her recent whining diatribe about 'dinner party islamophobia'.
Needless to say her bosses at Tory HQ are none too pleased. Expect a period of silence and a shuffle from her present position of co-chairman of the Conservative Party.
No electorate to worry about because she's not elected by a public constituency. Rather to get the 'token Muslim' within the Party she was elevated by peerage to a postion of Baroness in the House of Lords.
For more on this woman try the indomitable and incomparable Melanie again on the Spectator site and her own blog.
That's it in a nutshell. Yesterday's chip paper, nothing to see and time to move on.
Exposing evil to the light of day will certainly shake the roaches up, and will also annoy those that would prefer to keep the unmentionables in their dark places to breed and unfortunately to multiply. Both are two sides of the same coin.
But before moving on here's the definitive low down.
Norman Tebbit is a right wing Conservative aka The Chingford Polecat. Knowing more than most about terror, his wife is now wheelchair bound down after an IRA bomb blew up the Brighton hotel they were staying at whilst attending the Tory conference being held there.
Here's what he says.
But maybe more to the point log onto the site and scroll to the massive comment his piece attracted. Interesting times ahoy?
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/normantebbit/100072696/baroness-warsi-should-think-twice-before-accusing-christians-of-bigotry/
Ebonystone said "Hah, Robert, your feeble argument that you aren't a preacher of hate because you've never actually preached hate might hold up in sham Western courts based on feeble human laws, but in a real court, based on the immutable law of Allah -- i.e. a sharia court -- your guilt would be manifest in an instant."
-------------------
So glad I don't live in a Muslim country. It seems based on this statement by Ebonystone (and assuming he is a Muslim with intimate knowledge of Sharia laws), justice has no meaning in the world of Islam. It's no wonder normal intellectual and enlightened people laugh at this stone age set of laws, where based on the accusation of a person, their lives can be ruined and possibly taken without proof of guilt.
I'm so glad the modern world has progressed past this point. We still have our own flaws but at least our system is a more fair and just system.
Geezer = Moslem. If the Guardian ain't a Geezer rag, I dunno what is. The more socialism fails, the greater its presence. Just axe Prez Barack Hussein Obama, who personifies both.
Whoops, mate.
'Ebonystone' has been posting here for years and is a staunch member of the Resistance.
On this particular occasion he forgot his /SARC/ mark - probably assuming that all the 'regulars' know his real views and would therefore interpret the post as sarcasm without needing to be told.
Memo to all regulars: not everyone knows who you are and where you stand, so postings dripping with sarcasm, that present (with bleak and bitter irony) the Muslim view, should be clearly marked as such.
Wri7913 wrote:
So glad I don't live in a Muslim country. It seems based on this statement by Ebonystone (and assuming he is a Muslim with intimate knowledge of Sharia laws), justice has no meaning in the world of Islam.
..........................
Ebonystone, my dear friend, don't discount the importance of the "sarc/" tag. With posters like the appalling "Islamic Empire" weighing in here on a regular basis, you cannot assume that everyone will recognize your sense of humor.
That being said, I know your sterling posting record, and got a huge kick out of your comments!
Mr. Spencer is a hero who stands up against Islamic bigotry and for the civil world. However, Andrew Brown of the Guardian News is a third rate journalist who produces nothing more than empty opinions. My advise to Andrew Brown will be that he should seek another profession if he cannot match his empty analysis of this complex issue (for his small brain its complex, for most of the World it is obvious that Islam is here to destroy us and make no mistake, it is not enhancing the Western culture in any fashion or manner!) with factual comparisons.
I'm pissed that Queen Elizabeth could be persuaded to knight ANY muslims!
"Baroness" Warsi?!
...
When are these tards gonna wake up to realize that "hate" (the natural human response of perpetaul anger to ongoing INjustices) isn't a "crime"?!
When they try to make HATE a CRIME, they make it "illegal" to HATE CRIMES (like islam)!
;-(
Remember - this is England, with its restrictive libel laws... and Andrew Brown seems to be equating you to Al-Awlaki. Why not consult a British libel lawyer? Something that Michael Savage already did...
"Andrew Brown is an intellectual and moral imbecile".
That's exactly the kind of halfwits they clone in todays title mills.
I've been reading Jihadwatch for over five years, have read Robert's The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (And the Crusades), and have heard numerous interviews of him and speeches by him. I've never seen or heard him preach hatred against Muslims. Andrew Brown presents no evidence to support the allegation.
Andrew Brown is merely one among several others who, apparently unable to mount reasonable and fair counterarguments, resorts to personal insult and making up wild allegations. (This is besides the problem with Andrew Brown's writing. The article he presents is a muddled mess). In my view, Brown is abusing his position at the Guardian to spread false and defamatory statements about others.
Brown is another example of a half wit leftist " journalist ", who is either a complete buffoon, a knowing liar, or both ( I tend to believe the latter ).
But as usual with the left, the ends always justifies the means. Robert Spencer must be a really annoying figure, these days, to the leftist / politically correct / multi cultural crowd.
Keep on popping those ideological bubbles, that these people live in, Mr. Spencer.
It's amazing to watch the flat out lies, and distortions of the truth, that these people will resort to, when pressed into a corner.
No wonder the Guardian is on the verge of collapsing. If it does, he'll be able to write for the National Enquirer
No wonder The Gaurdian is on the verge of collapsing. If it does, Mr. Brown will be able to write for The National Enquirer.
"It seems based on this statement by Ebonystone ... justice has no meaning in the world of Islam. It's no wonder normal intellectual and enlightened people laugh at this stone age set of laws,...."
I'd have to agree that justice has little meaning in the world of Islam. And that normal, intellectual and enlightened people laugh at Islam's stone age laws. But unfortunately, it seems that too many of our leaders -- like BHO, the Archbishop of Canterbury, and the federal judge in OK, to mention just three -- are not laughing at sharia, but endorsing it. I think that can only mean that they're neither normal, nor intellectual, nor enlightened.
dumbledoresarmy and gravenimage, thanks for your support. I've never liked the use of "sarc on - sarc off"; it makes everything seem so obvious. Perhaps I'll use the Monty Pythonesque "nudge, nudge, wink, wink, know-what-I-mean?" instead.
And, looking at Wri7913's comment, I wonder if maybe it too could be a candidate for "sarc on - sarc off".
Par for the course at the Universalist guardan. Of course, 'the guardian' refers to shonghi effendi so there should be no misunderstanding as to what that rag essentially stands for.
"islam by progression trumps Christianity"
Many Jesus haters are very 'spiritual'. Even in the face of undeniable fact. That is, fact as long as Jews exist to prove their universalism is based on lies and revisionist history.
There is nothing more that progressive religionists want more than to see the factual jewish history of Christianity wiped from the face of the earth so that progressive religionists can point to a muslim palestine and force Christians to accept jesus was just a muslim profit.
Did you all like the new GZM imam claiming Moses is muslim?
Don't be surprised when you see seeming socialists start claiming the same as well.
Ah, progressivists. The grease for the muslim wheels of doom.
" If it does, Mr. Brown will be able to write for the National Enquirer ".
That is, if they will have him.
He might damage their credibility...
"And, looking at Wri7913's comment, I wonder if maybe it too could be a candidate for "sarc on - sarc off"."
----
Usually my comments either get Muslims/liberal sympathizers riled up or they ignore what I say because they know there is no come back (ie they are exposed). My sarcasm comes from growing up in a household full of sarcastic people.
Sorry about pegging you for Muslim, with comments from IE or a few other Muslim posters, I figured you were just another one of those types.
The 'Guardian' and the BBC (amongst others), are dogmatic media propagandists who no longer discuss or argue a political case; they have their 'multiculturalist' agenda (including appeasement of Islam) which they campaign to impose on the West.
Warsi's speech was a disgrace. She called on the Pope to attempt to make Europeans less Islamophobic and to increase Muslim-Christian dialogue. It apparently escaped her notice that the Pope is in fact a Christian leader, who spoke out on behalf of the Christians in Pakistan and Egypt, and was roundly told to shut up by Muslims. In no way is it his responsibility to 'combat Islamophobia' when he isn't even allowed, in Muslim eyes, to speak out in protection of people of his own faith.
But the rest of us, and the government, have to prove it is an entirely false equivalence.
"have to"says it all. The usual leftist practice of policy based evidence rather than evidence based policy.
Robert should seriously consider consulting a British libel lawyer. I would.
hey guys and gals, just found a must read over at Serbianna..
http://serbianna.com/analysis/?p=811
Miroljub Jevtic hit this one out of the park!!
Isn't hanging around here also in violation of your precious shariah? Pretty sure I can find a fatwa against it.
Robert Spencer is indeed fortunate in his enemies. To have the devil (and his minions) as an enemy is a good sign. As we all know, the devil is a lyer and he operates in defeat. His power exists only if one fears him. But actually he is a little fellow who evaporates in the light of truth. Truth is the common denominator of jihadwatchers. That has been my observation.
Switzerland: Jewish writer sentenced for “racism against Islam”
Which race is Islam again?
Conflating Islam with race is most pervasive in Britain, where it serves as an all-purpose weapon to beat down any criticism of Islam. Who could imagine that a judge would apply the same deceitful tactic in dhimmitude resisting Switzerland?
Another Victory for Islam:
A lecture tour of the Israeli journalist and Jewish theologian Avi Lipkin (alias Victor Mordecai – photo) before the minaret vote in Switzerland will cost him dearly. Lipkin warned at that time, minarets were not church towers, but ”nails in the coffin of the west” and explained on the basis of definitions in the Bible that Allah exhibits rather the characteristics of Satan than the God of the Bible.
Telling the truth about Islam causes Islamically mandated hissy fits, and the soldiers of Allah, who are always eager to wage litigation jihad against truth-tellers, took the matter to court.
Lipkin was sentenced in accordance with Swiss anti-racism law. The radical “Islamic Central Council of Switzerland” is triumphant.
http://sheikyermami.com/2011/01/23/switzerland-jewish-writer-sentenced-for-racism-against-islam/
Ebonystone wrote:
dumbledoresarmy and gravenimage, thanks for your support. I've never liked the use of "sarc on - sarc off"; it makes everything seem so obvious.
.............................
Yes, I know what you mean, Ebonystone. I started using the "sarc/" tag on a regular basis, however, shortly after I began posting here several years ago.
After some appalling "work accident", where a suicide bomber had prematurely detonated, I wrote a scathing comment about the viciousness and stupidity of these "holy warriors". I remember I closed the post with something like, "Don't you just love Jihadists?"
I had thought that the nature of my comments were completely clear, but another poster took my final comment at completely face value, and assumed that I did indeed "love Jihadists"! I decided I would much prefer to be obvious than so misunderstood.
Mudfish wrote, replying to comment from Ebonystone:
Isn't hanging around here also in violation of your precious shariah? Pretty sure I can find a fatwa against it.
.............................
Oh, no! Here we go again. Mudfish, Ebonystone was being sarcastic—he is *not* a Jihadist. Please read the comments above.
It goes without saying that Andrew Brown's statements are ludicrous to anyone who has read Robert Spencer, but the whole idea is to get the masses of people to associate the name Robert Spencer with extremism. Why people like Andrew Brown want to muddy the waters and muffle the truth about Islam is a deep question that always fascinates me. There is something within the nature of our society that breeds this kind of person, one who wants to see a brutal philosophy tear down their own country. Yet whenever I hear statements such as these I can never quite believe the person is really saying what he is. There are minions of these shills, and though a decided minority, they do all they can to keep the population unaware of the danger that militant Islam poses.
sheik
you reported:
"A lecture tour of the Israeli journalist and Jewish theologian Avi Lipkin (alias Victor Mordecai – photo) before the minaret vote in Switzerland will cost him dearly. Lipkin warned at that time, minarets were not church towers, but ”nails in the coffin of the west”
**and explained on the basis of definitions in the Bible that Allah exhibits rather the characteristics of Satan than the God of the Bible**."
Hmmm. Maybe Mr Lipkin has been reading Mark Durie's 'Revelation. Do We Worship the Same God?'. Because Rev Dr Mark Durie, an Anglican priest, though he doesn't say that allah has the characteristics of the satan (the Adversary), *does* comprehensively point out (using the Old Testament, or TaNaKh, as well as the Christian Gospels) that the character of the Holy One, YHWH, whom Jews and Christians worship, is radically different from - and on many points, opposite to - the god that Muslims worship.
Or else Mr Lipkin, like Dr Durie, is possessed of sound Scriptural knowledge and plain commonsense, and has independently reached a very similar conclusion.
the reason the sarc tag is needed is that the site auto feeds one down to the box to reply instantly...
perhaps jihad watch could update to a reply side thread system..
just a thought..
I feel the same way, ebonystone. Don't like to use sarc off sarc on. I knew from the content of your comment that you were being sarcastic, even without seeing your name. I think it's okay if someone doesn't immediately get it -- others will jump in and clarify, as dumbledoresarmy helpfully did.
How dare anyone like Robert Spencer resist the glories that Islam promises to bring, or slanders its resplendant "prophet" Mohammad?
What other "religion" believes so strongly in its truths that it is willing to kill anyone who disagrees with them or tries to escape the consolations of the Muslim collective?
That's real faith, baby!
What other "prophet" had slaves, married a 9 year old child, mass-murdered prisoners of his bandit raids, and divided the plundered loot among his followers the way Mohammad did?
That's a true spirtiual leader!
Brown knows which side his future is buttered on.
Tomorrow belongs to the Ummah!
/s?
I found the article to be self righteous balderdash. A mixture of bowlderism and cant.
Typical effing lefty crap.
All form and no substance.
There was another Spencer......
Mistah Kurtz—he dead.
A penny for the Old Guy
I
We are the hollow men
We are the stuffed men
Leaning together
Headpiece filled with straw. Alas!
Our dried voices, when
We whisper together
Are quiet and meaningless
As wind in dry grass
Or rats’ feet over broken glass
In our dry cellar
Shape without form, shade without colour,
Paralysed force, gesture without motion;
Those who have crossed
With direct eyes, to death’s other Kingdom
Remember us—if at all—not as lost
Violent souls, but only
As the hollow men
The stuffed men.
II
Eyes I dare not meet in dreams
In death’s dream kingdom
These do not appear:
There, the eyes are
Sunlight on a broken column
There, is a tree swinging
And voices are
In the wind’s singing
More distant and more solemn
Than a fading star.
Let me be no nearer
In death’s dream kingdom
Let me also wear
Such deliberate disguises
Rat’s coat, crowskin, crossed staves
In a field
Behaving as the wind behaves
No nearer—
Not that final meeting
In the twilight kingdom
III
This is the dead land
This is cactus land
Here the stone images
Are raised, here they receive
The supplication of a dead man’s hand
Under the twinkle of a fading star.
Is it like this
In death’s other kingdom
Waking alone
At the hour when we are
Trembling with tenderness
Lips that would kiss
Form prayers to broken stone.
IV
The eyes are not here
There are no eyes here
In this valley of dying stars
In this hollow valley
This broken jaw of our lost kingdoms
In this last of meeting places
We grope together
And avoid speech
Gathered on this beach of the tumid river
Sightless, unless
The eyes reappear
As the perpetual star
Multifoliate rose
Of death’s twilight kingdom
The hope only
Of empty men.
V
Here we go round the prickly pear
Prickly pear prickly pear
Here we go round the prickly pear
At five o’clock in the morning.
Between the idea
And the reality
Between the motion
And the act
Falls the Shadow
For Thine is the Kingdom
Between the conception
And the creation
Between the emotion
And the response
Falls the Shadow
Life is very long
Between the desire
And the spasm
Between the potency
And the existence
Between the essence
And the descent
Falls the Shadow
For Thine is the Kingdom
For Thine is
Life is
For Thine is the
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a whimper
Sorry for that last entry my computer is doing wierd things.
Will have to get a techy in to sort it out.
Anyway the poem is worth a read.
Agreed and well said.
Spencerman, Gellerwoman, Steven Emerson and just about anyone who publicly criticizes Islam and it's deluded followers receives that kind of treatment as a matter of course.
They're adults, are used to it, and realize the time-wasting fulility of responding to such assaults.
What really bothers me about the article is it's premise:
'the concept of [Islamic] extremism'
One of the greatest deceits, one of the greatest obstacles preventing 'unbelievers', especially those in the West, from accepting the ugly truth about Islam is the false notion that Muslims who attempt to live their lives in strict accordance with Qur'an, to the letter, are 'extremists'.
Let's not address the impact of the impossibly complex Sunnah on a Muslim's thinking and actions, here.
Most 'unbelievers' really don't know what Islam actually teaches, commands, demands and expects of Allah's slaves, and because the behavior of most Muslims in Western nations (the norm) generally comports with the laws of those nations--i.e. Islamic law has not yet collided with those nation's laws to a significant degree, yet--the kuffar have been lead to believe, as Brown's article does, the notion that fully compliant Muslims are extremists.
When one considers that most of the world's population is as clueless about Judaism as they are about Islam, why are only fully compliant Muslims labeled as extremists? After all, pictures of Jews with the funny hats and long, curled locks do, in my mind, meet Brown's visual description of 'weirdness'.
Until the Brown's of the world are challenged to explain precisely why, and in what manner, an Orthodox Muslim is an extremist and why other followers of various Orthodox beliefs are not, so-called unbelievers will continue to believe that huge deceit.
Mulims are not extremists for attempting to faithfully follow what they believe God has directed them to do, but rather because most non-Muslims have been led to believe that the behaviour of 'moderate' Muslims represents full compliance with the Qur'an.
Brown, and those of his ilk, are perpetuating that faulty notion.
Everybody who posts here realises that Robert Spencer is more than equal to the task of showing hacks like Andrew Brown up for what he is.
Warsi's comments are typical of how, no matter how many years Muslims live in a country, no matter how the government gives them honours (in her case a Peerage), and panders to their every whim - they revert to type in the end. As was said by one poster - the sheer amount of comment to support Norman Tebbit's article in The Telegraph shows that the ordinary laissez faire attitude of the Brit in the street is wearing thin.
As usual however, European governments are content to continue to live in their ivory towers and insist everything is hunky dory with peace and goodwill everywhere. Lord Ahmed bit the hand that fed him when he threatened Islamic violence to the House of Lords if Geert Wilders were allowed into the UK, and apart from tut tutting nothing happened. That should have alerted the government, but it didn't, and now Warsi. Maybe the Tunisian example is the best, that is if there's anybody in the UK and Europe who would be prepared to show their governments that we've had enough. How many Warsis and Ahmeds would it take to prove to these numpties that Islam and Western civilisation do not work?
"Brown is another example of a half wit leftist " journalist ", who is either a complete buffoon, a knowing liar, or both ( I tend to believe the latter ).
Good one Paul..Might I add- Half wit twit,mother-of-all twits, leftwit weftist,etc..( a la Terry Fuckwitt of Viz fame).
..Funny that! Andrew Brown is indeed a fine BBC prospect..
http://ohcheers.com/tag/mark-thompson-is-terry-fuckwitt/
His characterization only flies with those who are ignorant. Unfortunately, there are a lot of ignorant fools in the world. Hopefully, they will go to JihadWatch to see for themselves.
The problem with people like Mr. Brown is that it becomes impossible to determine if they are imbeciles or something worse. I have taken to treating fools the same way I would treat enemies, since in the long run, their effect is the same; they stand in the way of common sense and freedom. Fools and those with evil intent are two sides of the same coin.
Vis Superavi Ignarum!
no, he is the one feeding the alligator in the hope that it will eat him last.
score one for us, Robert. This morning, on talk radio here in Canada, an ex-CIA expert on shariah and islam spoke and will be appearing in Ottawa for the screening of Iranium. I believe the points she made, and the answers she gave to listener questions was right on the money. People here are beginning to actually get the true message and with any luck, we will not turn into another Englandistan.
Keep the message going--we all must, even when our friends tell us "enough already." Islam is a death cult and the word must continue to be spoken here because they cannot speak it there.
Andrew Brown equated Robert Spencer with Al-Awlaki. Although the equation is illogical and incorrect, it says much about Spencer’s ability to undermine the self-deceit so common in modern liberalism. Spencer has been libeled by Brown because sacred liberal theories such as multiculturalism have proved unworkable in the real world. Rather than admit this, the spineless Brown has chosen to attack Spencer by equating him with the malicious psychopath Al-Awlaki. The truth, which Spencer wields with a pen, not a sword, is impossible to defeat. When confronted with the truth, equivocators such as Brown always react by creating a bigger and more nonsensical lie to justify their untenable positions e.g., Hitler and Goebbels. I think Spencer should be proud that Brown publicly libeled him as it proves that Spencer is on the side of the invincible, sacred truth.
That attack on Robert makes me very angry. Also, it brown's me off. Sorry for the pun. I just couldn't help it. Keep up the great work.
Brown is an identikit elitist left wing buffoon, common in our class ridden UK ....he is always talking when he should be listening.
Hello Robert. In my humble opinion whenever someone of such limited intellect says anything like that, I take it as a compliment, given that their concept of reality is so far from the truth.
Best wishes to you and all the geniune posters.