Iran: Islamic supremacists firebomb Baha'i businesses, demand that Baha'is not befriend Muslims or teach their faith -- or else

If the Baha'is comply with the Muslim demands, the Muslims "guarantee not to wage any attack on your life and properties."

This is echoing Muhammad: "I have been commanded to fight against people so long as they do not declare that there is no god but Allah, and he who professed it was guaranteed the protection of his property and life on my behalf except for the right affairs rest with Allah." (Sahih Muslim 30)

More on this story. "Arsonists threaten reprisals if Baha'is befriend Muslims," from the Baha'i World News Service, January 16 (thanks to Daniel):

GENEVA -- A recent wave of arson attacks on Baha'i-owned businesses in Rafsanjan, Iran, appears to be part of a campaign to fracture relationships between Baha'is and Muslims in the city.

After around a dozen attacks on shops - carried out since 25 October 2010 - some 20 Baha'i homes and businesses have been sent a warning letter addressed to "members of the misguided Bahaist sect."

The anonymous document demands that Baha'is sign an undertaking to "refrain from forming contacts or friendships with Muslims" and from "using or hiring Muslim trainees." The Baha'is are also told not to teach their Faith, including on the Internet.

Should the conditions be accepted by the recipients, the letter states, "we will guarantee not to wage any attack on your life and properties."

"For more than two months now, innocent Baha'is have been having their businesses fire-bombed," said Diane Ala'i, the Baha'i International Community representative to the United Nations in Geneva. "Some of them have suffered more than one arson attack on their properties."

"Now, in addition to their livelihoods, their very lives are being threatened unless they promise to isolate themselves from their friends and neighbours," she said.

"What are the perpetrators of such attacks and threats hoping to achieve?" asked Ms. Ala'i. "All it demonstrates for the whole world to see is the religiously motivated hatred being fomented by certain elements in Iranian society."

Ms. Ala'i noted that Baha'is have approached local authorities asking for an investigation. "But nothing has been done," she said.

"Unbelievably, they've even been accused by some of starting the fires themselves, under instruction from foreign governments."

The attackers have particularly targeted household furniture repair businesses, home appliance and optical stores owned by Baha'is.

On 15 November, for example, fires were started in two appliance sales and repair shops, causing damage that exceeded tens of thousands of US dollars. One of the shopkeepers subsequently rented a neighboring property to continue his trade and installed a security door. One month later, despite the precautions, attackers managed to force an explosive substance into the shop through a hole they made in the roof, resulting in a blast that blew the door five meters into the air and shattered windows.

Most recently, on 2 January, another repair shop was set ablaze when a hose pumped a flammable liquid past metal sheets the owner had installed for protection.

A newsletter published by a Muslim cultural foundation in Rafsanjan stated that the attacks have been provoked by the fact that some trades have been "monopolized" by Baha'is in the city. A Muslim-owned coffee shop was also set ablaze after the newsletter mistakenly identified it as Baha'i-owned....

Whoops!

| 55 Comments
del.icio.us | Digg this | Email | FaceBook | Twitter | Print | Tweet

55 Comments

| Leave a comment

OT

Michael Coren on the persecution of Christians in the muslim world
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJSz1b3btGA

I'm sick of muslims, just can't leave us non-muslims alone.

So what?

Screw those islam based universalists.

I have zero sympathy for islam's cultural trojan horse faith.


I dare anyone to defend their islam inclusive universal progressive garbage faith based on the lie that Jesus is just a muslim profit.

Read the Earth Charter. Know who Maurice Strong is. The only reason bahai bother to remain in iran is to make a fake display of 'opposition' to islam.


What a joke.

A measure of the confidence in their supremacy that followers of orthodox islam have in the west? They feel bold enough to attack the same minorities that they persecute in the muslim majority countries from which they have emigrated. Old habits die hard. Along with their religion they import the baggage of their homeland religious dominance. Jews are the favourite target, but Sikhs, Bahai and Moslem "deviants" will do.

The Orlando Bahai Center was subject to two arson attacks in October 2009. There were no clues but at the time the speculation was that the responsible party was an unidentified white supremacist group. I wonder.

Submit, or die.

Feel the love of Islam.

The Baha'is have grown through much worse persecution for the past 166 years. The Shah of Iran tried to stamp out the Baha'i Faith trough the most intense persecution, particularly of its Founder Baha'u'llah (100 lb chain around his neck for four months in the Shah's worst dungeon in Tehran), when there were maybe 50,000 believers on the planet, all of them in Iran. A few Baha'i shops torched in Rafsanjan will succeed where Nasri-Din Shah failed?

There are a couple of Baha'i centers not far from where I live. Because of a Bill of Rights that protects people, we've caught on to the idea that people can live without blowing something up. Imagine that, letting people live their lives? Yes, some countries are different.


whoops indeed. thats the problem with a lot of policies.. they can't cater to everyone's needs all of the time :)

well... its typical yes. anyone who knows them knows that. the press coverage in even local papers etc is always "islam/muslim/moslem/mohammedian" etc and "Persecution, Outrage, Violence, Anger, Argument, Contoversy, Killings, Offended, Fear, Terror." etc.
and not in the media. people in conversation rarely defend them openly, its always reports here of beatings, bullying, terrorising, arguing for civil liberties and whining and crying racist etc.

i never, ever hear islam realated as "good job" "well done" "offers hope" "donates to" "opens doors" "warm smiles and welcome" "contributes positely to" or even "co operates with" and i never will. ive heard nothing but bad things for 41 years.

islam: if it was a movie you wouldn't go see it.

" arguing for civil liberties and whining and crying racist etc. " TWISTING civil liberties is more apt

"A Muslim-owned coffee shop was also set ablaze after the newsletter mistakenly identified it as Baha'i-owned...."

Now, they're looking for that perfect "Sorry I Thought You Were An Infidel" bouquet to send. Or maybe at least a card...

Muslims are afraid of Non Muslim contact for their fellow Muslims...it seems they might just discover something nicer than Islam....

its more fun to cull a few now and then and leave the rest living in fear for a few years... they can collect their protection money and have some sacrificial lambs to slaughter.

Nothing eh?

didn't think so..

just to make the point AGAIN I will quote this cable..

http://bahai-library.com/imbrie_consideration_bahai_religion
The disinterest of Bahá'ís, though in origin a Moslem sect, in the reform of Allah's faithful is a somewhat discouraging omen. Their striving for an all-expansive universality, though comprehensible, has so diluted their force in Persia as to diminish greatly their beneficent influence. One is constrained to remark that if they had concentrated less on Europe and America and more on morally bankrupt Persia their efforts would be more praiseworthy.

====

nothing has changed

Robert.. please don't give credence to a group that is both "Progressive" and "pro-islam"..

It defies logic and factual history..

bahai are as rotten at their core as muslims are..

Jesus is not a muslim profit.

Excuse me as a complete amateur as I puke...

Where is the Central bahai center in America.. Illinois...

What do we know about Illinois in the last 100 years?

Do some damn homework.. excuse my 'french'.

I see these two sites as equals..

jihadwatch.org and wattsupwiththat.com

The distillation between the two led to my understanding of bahai influence..

The 'ruling class' hates Christians..

http://spectator.org/archives/2010/07/16/americas-ruling-class-and-the/print

It's not ALL about islam.. muslims are just a tool.. low carbon alternatives to Christians..

Did anyone here think they lived in a bubble?

Hey you Iranian yobs.. bahai are muslims..

go molotov a non-muslim..

oh, sorry, muslim aren't allowed to handle alcohol..

I don't feel like Cassandra right now..
all I have said has not been rebutted..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4zyjLyBp64

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0af1bEGkxoA

figure it out...

Don't Sweat The Technique
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pV-TVhEUS14
Come test me now.. the dare is on the table..
Bring it.. It's time for the real rumble..
this ain't no jihadwatch, it's time to lay the freedom cards on the table..

who's got the steel to stand up and really count..?

anyone?

JW readers are invited to visit the link that grungyoldvan cites. The source and purpose of the document is interesting:


Legation of the United States of America
Teheran, Persia
January 8, 1925
Department of State Department of Near Eastern Affairs

The Honorable The Secretary of State,
Washington.

Sir:

I have the honor to submit for the information of the Department A CONSIDERATION OF THE BAHAI RELIGION, ITS TENETS, THE CHARACTER OF ITS FOLLOWERS, AND THE POSSIBILITY OF ITS SPREAD IN PERSIA AND ELSEWHERE.....

For the most part this 1924 US Foreign Service document is a fair account of the early history of the Baha'i Faith, but it is a third party perspective that is outdated to say the least in projecting future developments. As to the specific paragraph cited,


"The disinterest of Bahá'ís, though in origin a Moslem sect, in the reform of Allah's faithful is a somewhat discouraging omen. Their striving for an all-expansive universality, though comprehensible, has so diluted their force in Persia as to diminish greatly their beneficent influence. One is constrained to remark that if they had concentrated less on Europe and America and more on morally bankrupt Persia their efforts would be more praiseworthy."


The author probably was not aware of Baha'u'llah's very forceful statements to counter the concept of Holy War/Jihad and His life of sacrifice and suffering to promote such a claim:


"O people of the earth! The first Glad-Tidings which the Mother Book hath, in this Most Great Revelation, imparted unto all the peoples of the world is that the law of holy war hath been blotted out from the Book. Glorified be the All-Merciful, the Lord of grace abounding, through Whom the door of heavenly bounty hath been flung open in the face of all that are in heaven and on earth.

The second Glad-Tidings It is permitted that the peoples and kindreds of the world associate with one another with joy and radiance. O people! Consort with the followers of all religions in a spirit of friendliness and fellowship. Thus hath the day-star of His sanction and authority shone forth above the horizon of the decree of God, the Lord of the worlds."

(Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 21)

That Baha'u'llah had the courage to make such statements to the Ottoman Sultan/Caliph of the Islamic World while a prisoner in the latter's iron grip, while being consigned to the Sultan's worst prison, is indicative of Baha'i interest in changing the basic tenants of Islam.

Of equal importance is the need for representatives of all of the peoples of the World to come together and evaluate our basic foundational beliefs. Those beliefs that lead to prejudice, rancor and ultimately war should be removed and cast on the dust-heap of outworn and obsolescent doctrines. That which would lead to the understanding, cooperation, harmony, joy and happiness of everyone on the planet should be adopted and vigorously promoted.

Best wishes, Ts

Bahá'ísm is an eclectic religion, which can, in my opinion, lay little claim to originality. Its universal and all-embracing character has however been of great advantage in proselytizing among the Jews, Zoroastrians, and Christians.
-----

never muslims

I call shenanigans...

1925... 1925...

almost everyone is dead who lived during that time...

19 freaking 25..

and all they do is convince non-muslims that islam is part of 'god's' plan..

my understanding of the force that binds the universe to rules and regulations that I can't possibly ever understand unless I am a prophet like Einstein won't save me..

But at least I will have the comfort of knowing that the facts have been hashed out in the public square...

Growing up with access to a hundred year old masonic encyclopedia made my insight possible..

Jesus is one of a very, very small number of unique beings who is a perfect reflection of the knowledge and Will of the Creator, with a Message suited to the needs and capacity of the peoples of the planet 2000+ years ago.

For the Baha'i Faith to be an eclectic religion all of Baha'u'llah's statements would need to be derived from other writers. JW readers are invited to consider if the above quotations from Baha'u'llah are original or not. Other source materials can be found at www.bahai.org.

Say it...

Say that Jesus is muslim.. I double doggy dare you...

Why don't you just get to your revisionist 'historical' point?

'truthseeker'

what a waste of a nickname..

grungyoldvan,

The very cable you linked to gives the lie to your argument.

The cable writer notes that Ba'hai may be the best answer for the Middle East, opposing the backwardness and intransigence of Islam. He regrets that the Ba'hai are as ineffective as they are because of their emphasis on universalism, which dilutes their effect.

There is no reason not to consider the Ba'hai as another religion persecuted with ferocity by the Muslims, and fully worthy of our attention and support. I should note that I do not support the Ba'hai doctrines in any way. However, as a peaceful religion and way of life, there is no reason to not support its peaceful existence.

We should note that as Ba'hai has a Muslim origin, the Muslims consider it to be an apostate sect, explaining their ferocious attempts to intimidate and attack Ba'hai institutions. This is another example of Muslim "tolerance" for other religions.

'bahai are as rotten at their core as muslims are..'
'Hey you Iranian yobs.. bahai are muslims..'

Something many people do not appreciate is the fact that Bahais today are NOT Muslims, although originally they were a subbranch of Shia Islam. Alí-Muhammad of Shiraz, Iran proclaimed that he was "the Báb", referencing his later claim to the station of Mahdi, the Twelfth Imam of Shi`a Islam. His followers were therefore known as Bábís. As the Báb's teachings spread, which the Islamic clergy saw as a threat, his followers came under increased persecution and torture. The Mahdi concept is significant in that it clearly points to the fact that the Báb was essentially a member of the Shi'ite clergy, and by claiming himself to be the Mahdi, he therefore incurred the wrath of the mainstream Shia clergy, along with the Qajar dynasty, who had granted the Shia clergy considerable privileges.

Bahá'ís see the Báb as the forerunner of the Bahá'í Faith, because the Báb's writings introduced the concept of "He whom God shall make manifest", a Messianic figure whose coming, according to Bahá'ís, was announced in the scriptures of all of the world's great religions, and whom Bahá'u'lláh, the founder of the Bahá'í Faith, claimed to be in 1863.

Although Bahá'u'lláh was an early follower of the Báb, he did not claim his divine status until 1863, and by doing so he caused a rift between him and the successor of the Báb, leading the Báb movement at the time. Throughout the rest of his life Bahá'u'lláh gained the allegiance of most of the Bábís, who came to be known as Bahá'ís. The original Bábist movement with its Shi'ite origins turned into a marginal phenomenon. With the advent of Bahá'u'lláh, the Bahai movement became gradually 'de-islamified'.

Whereas many people believe the Bahai faith to be a syncretic religion, borrowing from many other faiths, such as Judaism, Christianity, Bhuddism,..etc, the Bahai faith has much more in common with Zoroastrianism than any other faith.

If we apply Islamic (Sunni or Shi'ite) logic to Bahai adherents, then a few things are immediately apparent:

1) Bahai's are regarded as both unbelievers by default AND apostates by default, because the Iranian government considers the Bahai faith as the continuation of religious (and therefore heretical) innovation within Shia Islam, initiated by the Báb, and the subsequent de-inslamifying of the movement to the point where it holds no key Islamic concepts. And apostates have to be punished more severely than mere unbelievers !

2) this is in marked contrast to Zoroastrianism. Zoroastrians are unbelievers by default, but they can't be considered as apostates. Simply because the remaining Zoroastrians in Iran today are the direct descendants of the earliest Zoroastrians, particularly those who have never submitted to Islam throughout their history.

Which is why Zoroastrians have their own parliamentary representatives in Iran, alongside Christians and Jews, and can still gather in their own places of worship, whereas a Bahai adherent automatically incurs the wrath of the mullahs and can receive the death penalty for simply being one. (Although all throughout history, Jews, Christians and Zoroastrians have been intermittently persecuted in Iran, and still are to some extent today) And it also explains why Bahai places of worship are destroyed.

Now, I should make a few things clear before anyone starts replying to what I have said on the subject:

1) I am an atheist and not a big fan of religions in general, however I have the common sense to recognize the fact that some religions are simply not deserving of the level of slander and persecution they are subject to, because many of them are infinitely more tolerant than Islamic ideology.

2) Some people really want to deliberately disregard historical contexts to prove their point and to denigrate others for whatever reason they see fit. Intellectual indolence is not the way forward when faced with a threat that concerns us all, it is divisive. It is the exact mirror image of the intellectual dishonesty of the PC/MC cultural relativists who claim that Islam is a religion of peace, disregarding all historical evidence to the contrary.

3) Putting things in context, I am trying to demonstrate the obvious internal logic Islamic ideology clings to, rather than making this an exercise in Islamic apologetics. In other words, in order to dispel Islamic mythology and the mollycoddling attitude of Western do-gooders, one has to be able to think like an Islamic supremacist first. Something which Robert Spencer has successfully demonstrated many times in the past, and we should be thankful for anyone providing us with such insights.

When Robert speaks out in support of Bahais, I sincerely understand why he does so, and I find myself absolutely flabbergasted as to why some people on JW seem to be so short-sighted on this matter, because it is totally uncalled for.

The thoughtful comments of RonaldB and Anushirvan are appreciated.

Other responsibilities limit a lengthy reply, but those interested in addressing the issue of Jihad on the planet might consider discussing the following line of thinking.

The attraction of OBL is that of a meaningful cause backed by the theological construct that defines Jihad as the highest incarnation of active faith. To change this line of thinking the Theological construct must change? Can this be done?

Some would say that the lynch pin is the "Seal of the Prophets" verse itself, as this is where all belief that the current incarnation of belief must last for ever and ever.

A close examination of Surah 33:40 shows that Muhammad only says he is the "Seal of the Nabi" (lessor Prophets like Isaiah, Ezekiel, etc.) but not the "Seal of the Ras'u'llah" the major Prophets who reveal new religious books. Thus, Qur'anic verse that the Words of God cannot completely be recorded,

109. Say: "If the ocean were ink (wherewith to write out) the words of my Lord, sooner would the ocean be exhausted than would the words of my Lord, even if we added another ocean like it, for its aid."

(The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah 18)

Combine the above with the verse that the Hand of God cannot be chained up (5:70), that this would clearly limit the conceptions of the Power and Potentials of the Creator, then possibly the Jihad thinking begins to stand on shakier ground and people can begin to open to the possibility that we are in a very new day when the world is being brought together "of which there is no doubt" (3:9, 6:12)

Something interesting to "scientifically test out"?

Best wishes, Ts

grungyoldvan wrote:

Robert.. please don't give credence to a group that is both "Progressive" and "pro-islam"..

It defies logic and factual history..

bahai are as rotten at their core as muslims are..
.....................................

Robert Spencer sure as hell doesn't need me to speak for him, but I doubt he posted this article because he believes Baha'is are about to reform Islam any time soon.

The Baha'i are here being treated by the Muslims like any other dhimmis—with threats if they befriend or employ Muslims, destruction of their homes and businesses, and threats to their lives.

This is a concern for us—just as much as if the targets were Jews, or Christians, or Buddhists, or Hindus, or any other religious minority in the Muslim world.

Baha'is are another persecuted religious minority in Dar-al-Islam, and are *not* considered Muslim despite their history. One can decry the persecution of this non-violent faith without adhering to—or even necessarily liking—any of its tenets.

Thank you gravenimage, your concern for the persecution of people of all Faiths in Dar-al-Islam is appreciated.

So basically, sell your souls and sign a contract making jizya (non-Muslim tax/plunder) "legal" and we will stop bombing your houses and businesses. Perfectly "legal" under Sharia law as a means of offering conversion to Islam.

Deebartok and Truthseeker, thank you.

To accept bahai is to accept that jesus is just a muslim profit..

This is a lie.. and it's a stealth jihad..

To include mohammad as a real profit makes the whole bahai faith as garbage as islam...

The goal of the bahai is to bring about a new world order..

If you want to support the faith that wishes to bring death and destruction to achieve their end, that is your own choice..

My eyes are open to bahai's insidious nature..

bahai are persecuted by muslims.. yet they promote mohammad as part of God's plan for progressive faith..

In the end, this means that Christians must accept mohammad for bahai to have their new world order..

I cannot ever in good conscience ever support that.. It's a lie and evil to its core...

Just because bahai are persecuted by muslims doesn't mean that makes bahai the 'good guys' automatically..

Here's a good summary..

http://www.gotquestions.org/Bahai-faith.html
The Baha'i faith therefore does not accord with classical Christianity, and it has much to answer for in its own right. How an unknowable God could elicit such an elaborate theology and justify a new world religion is a mystery. The Bahai faith is weak in addressing sin, treating it as if it were not a big problem and is surmountable by human effort. Christ's divinity is denied, as is the evidential value and literal nature of Christ's resurrection. And for the Baha'i faith, one of its biggest problems is its pluralism. That is, how can one reconcile such divergent religious without leaving them theologically gutted. It is easy to argue that the world's religions have commonalities in their ethical teachings and have some concept of ultimate reality. But it is another beast entirely to try to argue unity in their fundamental teachings about what the ultimate reality is and about how those ethics are grounded.

=====

and this article doesn't even delve into the United Nations/Baha'i connection...

===

http://smartgirlpolitics.ning.com/profiles/blogs/the-earth-chartercompanion-to

Transformation of the Soul

As many of you are aware there is an ongoing onslaught against traditional Judeo-Christian religions and values, while simultaneously seemingly embracing Islamic values. In fact, all of our usual ‘players’ (Al Gore, Maurice Strong, Mikhail Gorbachev, et al) claim to be devout disciples of the Baha’i Faith.

Baha’i literature proclaims the following:

“National rivalries, hatreds, and intrigues will cease, and racial animosity and prejudice will be replaced by racial amity, understanding and cooperation. The causes of religious strife will be permanently removed, economic barriers and restrictions will be completely abolished, and the inordinate distinction between classes will be obliterated. Destitution on the one hand, and gross accumulation of ownership on the other, will disappear.”

Baha’i grew out of Islam, and is in fact a stepchild of the Islamic faith, albeit a despised one. Rather than naming Muhammad as the greatest of the prophets as the Muslims do, Baha’is hold Baha’u'llah to be the greatest of the prophets while extolling the virtues of Gaia, Mother Earth.

======

You made me post this because nobody here bothered to do their homework... I just did a search... found this nice summary...

I started here www.wattsupwiththat.com, climategate happened, then I went here www.green-agenda.com

Then I did my homework...

It's not just muslims that we have to worry about..

http://spectator.org/archives/2010/07/16/americas-ruling-class-and-the/print

wake up you myopic anti-jihad drones...

vangrungy.blogspot.com

I like to learn.. Bring facts, I don't mind being wrong if you can teach me about factual events..

islam isn't the only evil in this world.. everyone who accepts islam is legitimate revelation might as well be a muslim too..

everyone is persecuted by muslims.. You don't see me rail against real faiths like Buddhism and Hinduism.. They are based on their respective historical facts..

A faith based on a lie that makes communists cream with delight based on it's central theme of destroying 'Jesus as God' is not to be taken lightly..

I'm sorry if I make JW regulars uncomfortable.. welcome to your new expanded view of world events...

Now go and research the connection between Esperanto and the bahai...

Ever wonder why George Soros was raised to speak and write Esperanto?

So did I...

bahai are peaceful because it's their job to convince Christians that mohammad is part of bahai god's plans..

(somewhat true, but bahai want you to believe that god revealed the quran to mohammad.. when clearly 'satan' revealed the quran)

it does not serve bahai to act as muslims do.. They are quite good at convincing progressive christians that 'interfaith dialogue' is truly spiritual..

Not to mention the irony that Israel protects the 'Bab's' burial place even though bahai need Jews to not exist.. (due to the need for the revision of history with Ishmael as the bearer of the islamic revelation..)

Is islam an Abrahamic faith? How can bahai be Abrahamic if you just answered 'no'?

http://bahai-library.com/wwwboard/messages00/529.html
Posted by Seefan on August 04, 19100 at 07:13:43:

Hi:
I'm wondering if anyone might have an answer to the following Baha'i question. If you do you can email me the information. It has to do with the genealogy of Baha'u'llah of which was asked of me. In the Bible - genesis 17, 20-21, it says:" And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee; Behold I have blesses him and made him fruitful and will multiply him exceedingly; ... But my covenant will I establish with Isaac ..."
Now we know that Baha'u'llah's genealogy goes back to Abraham, but through Ishmael. Christians say Baha'u'llah can't be who He says he is because His genealogy doesn't go through Isaac but through Ishmael. Could you clarify this for me? Thanks in advance!
In His service,
you may reach me at
seefan@hotmail.com

===

truthseeker.. can you help this wayward bahai?

Please correct any factual errors..

Like I said.. I like to learn..

oh.. btw.. good luck with that mission...

http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/25233
Our global busy-body Maurice Strong was the founder and Secretary General of the United Nations Environment Programme and Senior Advisor to Kofi Annan. He also founded the Earth Council and the Earth Charter Initiative, and was former President of the United Nations University of Peace. He, more than anyone else, has been the architect of the global green agenda. Strong is a devout Baha’i and from his lofty positions within the UN has permeated the organization with Gaian theology.

===

Seek the facts.. truth is subjective..

Greetings grungyoldvan, you have been busy in the last 24 hours since we were last dialogging. A number of your points are addressed by an examination of facts, but there is a bigger overriding issue - What is "Ultimate Reality" and how is at work in the World?

* Mikhail Gorbachev (MG): MG did quote large segments from the Baha'i "Promise of World Peace (PWP) Statement". To the best of my knowledge he did not reference his source material. I do know that there was an Hawaiian youth group that was invited to go to Russia in November of 1989 to discuss with Russian youth the PWP message. They had hoped to meet with Mr. Gorbachev but there was no communication from his offices. His star began to fade shortly thereafter. To the best of my knowledge he is not considered a Baha'i though that knowledge is limited.

* Al Gore: I have heard no Baha'i state that he is a Baha'i.

* The Baha'i vision of the future is for a World Federation that would work as efficiently and effectively as States of the United States which particularly guards against the excesses of "over centralization". The press of technological revolution is forging dramatically different new working relationships. It stands to reason that some form of managerial process for such a federation is needed and will evolve based on the planet's thoughtful examination of best governing practices, much like Jefferson and Adams created the US constitution based on the study of English, Roman and Greek democracies. The UN can be seen as one major step in that direction but it is by no means the final step as there is much perfection that can still be done with its essential working relationships. The mind can not yet even imagine what the UN might look like in 100 years. Eventually the UN will be improved by the consultative efforts of the best leaders and minds on the planet. Within this framework individuals will have the right to freely investigate truth and choose their own path of development, be it religious or un-religious. Baha'is are attracted to working with the UN given its World embracing vision which is at the heart of Baha'i belief.

* Baha'u'llah's love for, and cherishing of, Jesus Christ is quite profound and is best communicated in Baha'u'llah's own words:


XXXVI. Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence  86  exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.

We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.

Leprosy may be interpreted as any veil that interveneth between man and the recognition of the Lord, his God. Whoso alloweth himself to be shut out from Him is indeed a leper, who shall not be remembered in the Kingdom of God, the Mighty, the All-Praised. We bear witness that through the power of the Word of God every leper was cleansed, every sickness was healed, every human infirmity was banished. He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him.

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 85)

Baha'is suggest that the Creator would deeply cherish all of the Messengers. The nature and scope of Their Revelations, though, are contingent upon the needs and capacities of the people they are called to teach. Any good teacher would also take this approach?

* Questions regarding Isaac, Ishmael and God's Covenant: This is one of those challenges of Faith that occur from time to time in religious process. It is found in Christianity as well. The early Christians were derided over Christ's "virgin birth" with challenges that he was really only an illegitimate son (Baha'is do accept the virgin birth, this line of thinking is by way of example), which would be a major stigma in that day and a thick veil that kept people from recognizing Christ's Message. Christ's breaking of the rules of the Sabbath and not appearing as a David like warrior were equally frustrating for people. The human spirit is thus, in these cases, challenged to see with a deeper spiritual insight.

* The following question, I agree, is quite profound:

And for the Baha'i faith, one of its biggest problems is its pluralism. That is, how can one reconcile such divergent religious without leaving them theologically gutted. It is easy to argue that the world's religions have commonalities in their ethical teachings and have some concept of ultimate reality. But it is another beast entirely to try to argue unity in their fundamental teachings about what the ultimate reality is and about how those ethics are grounded.

I would suggest that this is the biggest challenge that the whole planet faces in this age, how to harmonize what from some perspectives are very divergent and seemingly irreconcilable differences, Jihad itself being one of several examples.

The eventual answer to this question may lie in the process of obtaining the answer, as the process will determine the level of acceptance and embrace of new resolutions. For instance....

- Do we each put are claims on the table, as we are doing now, and see what people are most attracted to?

- Do we take a vote and abide by the majority?

- Do we see what will stand the test of time and intense scrutiny?

- Do we seek to see if there is truly a higher authority for guidance?

In religious history such major issues have not been resolved easily or without a great deal of "creative tension".

Moses standing before Pharaoh and the process of Passover was a time of great emotional flux?

Christ driving the money changers from the Temple to restore it as a house of prayer was the highest of drama and proved to be a capital offense.

It could be that we are living in similar times of great change and must look closely at the new emerging trends, but we also have to determine if there is a "Higher Power shaping human destiny"?

Religions have changed in the past. Christ's Message was seen as more in tune with reality and therefore prevailed over Greek or Roman religious systems?

Best wishes, I must retire for the evening. Ts

'The Baha'i faith therefore does not accord with classical Christianity, and it has much to answer for in its own right. How an unknowable God could elicit such an elaborate theology and justify a new world religion is a mystery.'

Now, some 'insights' grungyoldvan derives from the sources he quotes automatically imply that the Baha'i faith can't claim the status of a real religion, simply because the core tenets of the faith don't accord with classical Christianity. How ridiculous is that ? If you take this point of view, than one can also condemn just about any other religion on the planet, including Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Taoism, Judaism,...etc. Although he claims Hinduism and Buddhism for instance to be genuine religions. Besides, everything rests on what he would denote as 'classical Christianity'. What would that constitute in his mind ? Roman-Catholicism, Calvinism, Lutheranism, Presbyterianism,...or what ? It is quite clear to me, if you take this much further, one can condemn just about any other subbranch of Christianity as well, just like it has happened in the past. I quite believe that in medieval Europe, Roman-Catholics would have thought of themselves as classical Christians, and would rather have been able to keep their moral monopoly unscathed, would it not have been for Calvinists and Lutherans rising against them.

The truth is quite simple really. Quite a lot of religions claim Moral Universalism and wouldn't like to see the light of day surface between them and their adversaries, who threaten to chip away at their Moral Supremacy. All throughout history this has been apparent, both in Europe and on other continents. As a matter of fact, this has never stopped new religions from surfacing that also lay claim to Moral Universalism. In a sense, that is the way of the world and history repeats itself. At least, many religions can agree to disagree and can peacefully co-exist to a certain extent.

Now, whether one likes it or not is really besides the point. It would be more important to me to avert the dangers our societies are presented with at this point in time, when we all start realizing that Islam's totalitarian ideology wants to establish Moral Universalism/Supremacy on all people on this planet with the most heinous means it has at its disposal, stoked by the most relentless fanaticism imaginable. Something other religions have already done away with, keeping the historical consequences of religious polarization in mind.

When you start quoting 'The Baha'i faith therefore does not accord with classical Christianity, and it has much to answer for in its own right.' then I could also rephrase this from Islam's point of view by stating 'The Baha'i faith therefore does not accord with classical Islam, and it has much to answer for in its own right.'

This line of 'reasoning' is not all that different from the idea that 'Baha'is are not Muslims, so they deserve what they are getting thrown at them.' or 'Our type of Moral Universalism represents the only true faith on this planet so we should turn the screws on anyone who wants to challenge it, whether intentionally or unwittingly directed against us.'

Sometimes, I really have to despair of people when I hear things like that. Are you living in a parallel medieval reality within the confines of your own mind, grungyoldvan ?

again.. HISTORICAL FACTS...

islam and therefore bahai are based on lies...

can you dig?

don't you get it?

FACTS DO NOT SUPPORT ISLAM AND BAHAI...

Thanks for coming out...

show me the good mohammad did so that I may believe that he is worthy of consideration as a 'manifestation' in the ever progressing faith of 'making up for mohammad'...

Aren't bahai worried that another manifestation could be like mohammad? At all?

http://web.archive.org/web/20071215173618/http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20071118/lf_afp/israelireligionbahai

Numbering five million believers in every continent reading literature translated into more than 800 languages, the Bahai faith is growing faster than any other religion but Zoroastrianism with its some 200,000 adherents.

Theirs is a vision of the world governed by a world legislature, world court and a world executive, all overseeing freedom of movement, disarmament and an international military to ensure peace.

"The central theme of Babaullah's social teachings is that humanity is one single race and the day has come for its unification into one global society," says a glossy English-language brochure.

Far from creating a "monstrous big brother," Bahais believe their faith is the most suited world religion to sustain modern, progressive society.

They believe in promoting sexual equality, universal education and religious tolerance, and eliminating prejudice, extreme wealth and poverty, -- teachings that they say hold the answers to global warming, erosion of family life and racism.

====

No, nothing to worry about..

--Bahais admit 'irony' of preaching global unity in Israel --

I love that line...

The lengthy thread of this discussion is testimony to the complexity of working with the intricacies of religious belief. As we are asking Muslims to change some of their core beliefs, particularly those regarding war and women, we must find ways to investigate,discuss and create new possibilities, both within the JW community but ultimately with Muslims as well?

The concept of War within the Abrahamic tradition clearly varies quite widely. I acknowledge Muhammad eventually becomes quite different from Christ's Message, but grows closer and closer to where Moses evolved to in the Exodus. In Deuteronomy 20:13-14 conquered men are slain and the women and children are spoils, whereas in Deut. 20: 16-17 nothing which breatheth is to be left alive. Christ says that if "you knew Moses you would know Me" and is clearly building on the Torah. I do not believe that I should reject Christ because of these Torah connections. Rather I accept that there are limits of how we can understand historical context and judge the past base on our standards for this day. And even in this day the majority of commentators have come to agree that President Truman "acted appropriately" in burning everything that breatheth in Hiroshima and Nagasaki in order save the lives of millions of others. We need to be careful how we judge the past s all of the facts may not be apparent?

As to the "good that Muhammad accomplished"? Like Abraham and Moses, he lifted people up from the unreality of bowing before and praying to graven images or idols?

Best wishes for this evening, Ts

In Deuteronomy 20:13-14 conquered men are slain and the women and children are spoils, whereas in Deut. 20: 16-17 nothing which breatheth is to be left alive.
=====

Dude.. you do realize that Jews are confined to the land God gave them.. don't you?

Show me the part in the Bible where pre-Jesus Jews are commanded by God to wage unending borderless war on non-believers..
=====

btw... by bahai definition, Albert Einstein is a manifestation of bahai allah.. Without his theorems to guide physicists, the manhattan project would never have been possible..

If 'we' kill humans "War Games" style by thermonuclear guided and ballistic missile on a Billion scale, I'll personally admit that Einstein is the equal of mohammad...

LOL

Are you on theologyweb?

G'Day grungyoldvan,

I believe we share one important thing in common, that we both do not want to see Sharia spread across the planet even by peaceful means, let alone by violent Jihad. I work to make a better world for my daughters and (hopefully in time) their children. The interesting question is how to create new possibilities for the planet?

It would seem that the several ideological promoters are circling around each other, frustrated by certain features that they detest in each other, shouting at/past each other but unable to find ways of coming together to create common points of agreement that they can build together on. One of the most basic could/should be....

- Each person has the right to investigate the reality of Truth and this incredible creation we are a part of for themselves and be guided by their best understanding.

As to Mr. Einstein, I will let the Creator be the judge of his efforts.

Thank you for sharing the "theologyweb" link. I poked around in it a little bit and it will be valuable in studying a range of "scrutinized beliefs".

Over and out for tonight, Ts

Leave a comment

NOTE: The Comments section is provided in the interests of free speech only. It is mostly unmoderated, but comments that are off topic, offensive, slanderous, or otherwise annoying stand a chance of being deleted. The fact that any comment remains on the site IN NO WAY constitutes an endorsement by Jihad Watch, or by Robert Spencer or any other Jihad Watch writer, of any view expressed, fact alleged, or link provided in that comment.







Not Peace But A Sword by Robert SpencerDid Muhammad Exist? The Muslim Brotherhood in America, by Robert SpencerIslamophobia: Thoughtcrime of the Totalitarian FutureMuslim Persecution of Christians, by Robert Spencer Obama and IslamThe Ground Zero Mosque: Second Wave of the 9/11 Attacks
The Complete Infidel’s Guide to the Koran


Stealth Jihad


The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam


The Truth About Muhammad


What they’re saying about Robert Spencer
“My comrade-in-arms, my pal, my buddy.”
Oriana Fallaci

“Robert Spencer incarnates intellectual courage when, all over the world, governments, intellectuals, churches, universities and media crawl under a hegemonic Universal Caliphate’s New Order. His achievement in the battle for the survival of free speech and dignity of man will remain as a fundamental monument to the love of, and the self-sacrifice for, liberty.”
Bat Ye’or

“Robert Spencer is indefatigable. He is keeping up the good fight long after many have already given up. I do not know what we would do without him. I appreciate all the intelligence and courage it takes to keep going despite the appeasement of the West.”
Ibn Warraq

“America's most informed, fearless, and compelling voice on modern jihadism.”
Andrew C. McCarthy, Senior Fellow at National Review Institute

“Robert Spencer is the leading voice of scholarship and reason in a world gone mad. If the West is to be saved, we will owe Robert Spencer an incalculable debt.”
Pamela Geller, Atlas Shrugs

"The consummate Islam critic and expert." — Bruce Bawer

“Over the years, we have become friends, and I have received his assistance on several pieces of legislation I proposed.”
Former Congressman Tom Tancredo

“Few people are capable of applying scholarship, analytical reasoning, and objectivity to their topic -- while simultaneously being readable and witty -- as can Robert Spencer.”
Raymond Ibrahim

“A national treasure...The acclaimed scholar of Islam.”
Frank Gaffney, Center for Security Policy

“I am indeed honored to call him my friend.”
Brad Thor, novelist

“A top American analyst of Islam....A serious scholar...I learn from him.”
Daniel Pipes

“A brilliant scholar and writer.”
Douglas Murray

"One of my best teachers."
Ashraf Ramelah, Voice of the Copts

“Thank God there’s at least one man with balls left in the West.”
Kathy Shaidle, Five Feet of Fury

“I read people like [Mark Steyn] and Bob Spencer and the rest of them, and I say, ‘Boortz, you’re pretending you’re an author. These people really are. They really write some entertaining, some standup stuff.’”
Neal Boortz

“Robert Spencer is the Stephen King of Jihad.”
Chris Gaubatz, Muslim Mafia

“Armed with facts and fearlessness, Spencer stands up for Western civilization.”
Michelle Malkin

“Widely read in conservative foreign policy circles.”
New York Times

“Widely read in many quarters in Washington.”
Washington Post

“A canny operative who likely has the inside track on the State Department’s Middle East affairs desk should the tea party win the White House.”
New York Magazine

“A hero of the American right.”
Karen Armstrong

"The leading anti-Islamic intellectual in the United States....The go-to Islam expert for the right wing."
Salon Magazine

“Robert Spencer is an Edward Said turned upside down.”
Stephen Suleyman Schwartz

“One of the nation's most notorious Islamophobes.”
Hamas-linked CAIR

"Geller and Spencer are probably the most important propagandizing Islamophobes in the world. These people's voices speak very loudly — not just here in the United States but overseas."
Heidi Beirach, Southern Poverty Law Center

“Satanic ignoramus.”
Khaleel Mohammed

“The Likud anti-Christ.”
Dar al-Hayat newspaper (Saudi Arabia)

“Zionist Crusader, missionary of hate, counter-Islam consultant.”
Al-Qaeda’s Adam Gadahn, “Azzam the American”



Follow me on Twitter
facebook islam
RSS feed

Monthly Archives



Donate
Jihad Watch is a 501 (c) 3 organization. Donations are tax-deductible.


Robert Spencer debates on The Quran Teaches WarVideo: Robert Spencer on CPAC Breitbart News
Crucified Again by Raymond Ibrahim
SIOAFreedom Defense InitiativeJihad Watch VideosAmerican Freedom Law Center
Note: Listing here does not imply endorsement of every view expressed at every linked site.

» ACT for America
» Always on Watch
» American Center for Democracy
» American Coptic Association
» American Council for Kosovo
» American Freedom Alliance
» American Freedom Law Center
» American Islamic Forum for Democracy
» American Sheepdogs
» American Thinker
» Americans Against Hate
» Americans for Legal Immigration
» Amerisrael
» Amillennialist Contra Mundum
» Annaqed
» A New Dark Age Is Dawning
» Answering Islam
» Answering Muslims
» Anti-CAIR
» Apostates of Islam
» Aramaic Broadcasting Network (ABN)
» Armies of Liberation
» Assyrian International News Agency
» Atlas Shrugs
» Atour — The State of Assyria
» Australian Islamist Monitor
» Biafra Nation
» Blazing Cat Fur
» Bosch Fawstin
» Brad Thor
» Brussels Journal
» CAIR Watch
» Campus Watch
» Caroline Glick
» Christians Under Attack
» Citizen Warrior
» Coalition for the Defense of Human Rights
» Conservative Nation News
» Copts.com
» Creeping Sharia
» Daniel Pipes
» David Horowitz Freedom Center
» The David Project
» David Thompson
» David Yerushalmi Law
» D. C. Watson
» Dearborn Underground
» DEBKAfile
» Dhimmitude.org
» Dry Bones
» Ellis Washington Report
» Europe News
» Eye On Islam
» Ezra Levant
» Faith Freedom International
» Father Zakaria
» Federale
» Five Feet of Fury
» Foundation for Democracy in Iran
» Free Congress Foundation
» The Free Copts
» Freedom Defense Initiative
» FrontPage Magazine.com
» Geert Wilders
» Genocide1915.info
» Global Research in International Affairs (GLORIA) Center
» History of Jihad
» Hizb ut-Tahrir Watch
» Honest Reporting
» Honor Killings
» Human Rights Congress for Bangladesh Minorities
» India Defence
» Infidel Blogger’s Alliance
» Infidels Are Cool
» The Intelligence Summit
» International Analyst Network
» International Free Press Society
» Internet Haganah
» The Investigative Project on Terrorism
» IOwnTheWorld.com
» IranPressNews
» Iran va Jahan
» Islam Review
» Islam Speaks
» Islam Versus Europe
» Islam Watch
» Islamic Terrorism in India
» Islamist Watch — Middle East Forum
» Israel Matzav
» JihadOnBuddhists.org
» Kejda Gjermani
» KRSI: Radio Sedaye Iran
» Liberated
» Logan's Warning
» Looking At the Left
» Mahdi Watch
» Mapping Sharia
» Mark Steyn
» Martin Kramer
» MEMRI TV
» Middle East Facts
» Middle East Quarterly
» Middle-East-Info.org
» Middle East Media Research Institute
» Middle East Review of International Affairs (MERIA)
» Militant Islam Monitor
» Morning Star
» Muhammad Tube
» The Muslim Issue
» Muslim World Today
» Myths and Facts
» National Vietnam & Gulf War Veterans Coalition
» NewsReal Blog
» No Mosques At Ground Zero
» Nonie Darwish
» Northeast Intelligence Network
» Occidental Jihadist
» One Jerusalem
» Open Speech
» Operation Give
» Operation Gratitude
» Organiser
» Orwellian Culture
» Palestinian Media Watch
» PamelaGeller.com
» Panun Kashmir
» Pedestrian Infidel
» The People's Cube
» The People of the Book
» Persecution Project
» Political Islam
» Politically Incorrect
» Politiskt Inkorrekt
» Q Society of Australia
» Radio Farda
» Radio Jihad
» RAWA: Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan
» Raymond Ibrahim
» Red Alerts
» Refugee Resettlement Watch
» Religion of Peace
» Republican Riot
» Reuters Middle East Watch
» The “Reverend” Jim Sutter
» SANE: Society of Americans for National Existence
» The Second Draft
» Shire Network News
» SITE Intelligence Group
» Small Wars Journal
» Smoke-Filled World
» The Snooper Report
» Snow Report Blog
» StandWithUs
» Steve Lackner
» The Stiletto Blog
» STOP! Honour Killings
» Sultan Knish
» Tell the Children the Truth
» Terrorism Awareness Project
» Theodore’s World
» Tom Gross Media
» Translating Jihad
» Una via per Oriana
» Undaunted
» United States Central Command
» Urban Infidel
» Walid Shoebat
» Winds of Jihad
» Women Against Shariah
» World Council for the Cedars Revolution
» Yid With Lid
» Z Street
» Zilla of the Resistance
» Zionist Conspiracy
David LittmanOriana Fallaci Thousands of Deadly Terror Attacks Since 9/11The incredible Reza Aslan automated insult generator! iGoogle Gadget
Site Meter