Congresswoman Giffords was shot by a flag-burning Leftist, but that hasn't stopped the mainstream media from pulling out all the stops in using the shooting to demonize conservatives, including anti-jihadists.
Hamas-linked CAIR is thrilled with this dhimmi piece, and sent it out in their daily mailing yesterday. "Tucson should make Rep. King rethink Muslim probe," by Jeff Stein in the Washington Post, January 10:
The shooting in Tucson offers Rep. Peter T. King (R-N.Y.) an opportunity to rethink his planned Homeland Security Committee hearings on Muslim "radicalization" in this country.King says he's worried about the "disconnect," as he calls it, "between outstanding Muslims who contribute so much to the future of our country and those leaders who--for whatever reason--acquiesce in terror or ignore the threat."
By that standard, he should have hearings on the failure of Republican leaders to denounce Sarah Palin's "crosshairs" Web page and Sharron Angle's invocation of "Second Amendment remedies" to Big Government and her opponent in the Nevada U.S. Senate race, Harry Reid....
The shooter was following Giffords for years before Sarah Palin or Sharron Angle were on the national scene.
Why single out Muslims, at least at this particular time? They are already under the constant watch of the FBI. The U.S. intelligence community, meanwhile, not to mention think tanks and universities, have already spent untold fortunes reporting on, not to mention blunting, the appeal of radical Islamism, as anyone can find with a simple Internet search, including King. If they're not doing enough to short-circuit terrorist acts, the Homeland Security Committee should hold hearings on that.
Why single out Muslims, at least at this particular time? Hmm, that's a tough one. Could it be because Muhammad Hussain, the would-be jihad bomber in Baltimore? Or Mohamed Mohamud, the would-be jihad bomber in Portland? Or Nidal Hasan, the Fort Hood jihad mass-murderer? Or Faisal Shahzad, the would-be Times Square jihad mass-murderer? Or Abdulhakim Mujahid Muhammad, the Arkansas military recruiting station jihad murderer? Or Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, the would-be Christmas airplane jihad bomber? Or Muhammad Atta and Anjem Chaudary and Omar Bakri and Abu Hamza and Abu Bakar Bashir and Zawahiri and Zarqawi and bin Laden and all the rest?
No, Sarah Palin's alleged "crosshairs" are much more dangerous than any of them.
Now is exactly not the time to throw more gasoline on the fire by opening hearings whose main purpose seems to be to pressure U.S. Muslim leaders into showy denunciations of terrorism.
Actually, they've been issuing vague and weasel-worded denunciations of terrorism for years. We don't need more of those. We need actions -- and if Muslim leaders don't act honestly and sincerely against jihad terrorism and the spread of the jihad doctrine in American mosques and Islamic schools, our own law enforcement officials should.
Every time there is a jihad attack or terrorist arrests the establishment warn about not making rash conclusions, in this case the suspect, his history, motives have all been analysed and the suspect has been found guilty already.
You never get that with Muslims, the media seem to concentrate on the "known facts" which have been put in the public realm by the police.
Had Loughner been a Muslim the media would be far less intrusive regarding his past.
WaPo: Giffords shooting should make Congressman King rethink hearings on jihad
........................
This "logic" is even more convoluted than usual. What about the shooting of this poor Congresswoman would lead you to give Islam a free pass? There is no connection here at all.
In fact, if one were to come to *any* conclusions vis-a-vis her shooting and Jihad, it might be to take "terrorism" of any stripe rather more seriously.
outstanding Muslims who contribute so much to the future of our country
Is the definition of "outstanding" up for a debate on what it ought to really mean? Or should we be talking about what kind of future those mahoundians are supposed to be contributing to? Possibly this kind of "future", I suppose.
Obama's Leftist "progressives" spent the last decade on CNN committing acts of criminal mayhem during their kristalnaght-style, anti-Semitic gutter riots (masquerading as "peace" protests) in support of Islamo-supremacism to achieve their hate-America political agenda. http://www.zombietime.com/hall_of_shame
Yet Leftists now have the temerity to climb up on their hind legs (without a shred of evidence) and howl about (alleged) "violent rhetoric" from Taxed Enough Already (TEA) ralliers?
Leftists are now openly calling for Palin's assassination.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxgJKNpjSNI&feature=player_embedded#!
Death threats: how progressive!
Can anyone imagine a Gifford effigy hung from a noose?
http://michellemalkin.com/2008/10/27/can-you-imagine-if-an-obama-effigy-were-hung-from-a-noose/
Own the violent rhetoric and vitriol, Leftists.
Meanwhile here in the UK the final 2 of a white underage girl rapist gang of Muslim Pakistanis have been goaled for an indeterminate term.
Jack Straw , ex Home Secretary (Napolitano equivalent?) said that Pakistani men had no outlet for their testosrone fueled desires since Muslim girls were "off limits". Problem is that these two were married!!!
Problem is another 9 have been arrested this week; problem is there have been many such; problem is that many say this is the tip of an iceberg.
The connective tissue? Pakistani and Muslim
For these Porkie males as well as other muslims, the UK is a candy store for underage white girls. they don't feel a twinge of guilt in using them as sex toys after all their religion doesn't even say that they are humans, just booty for muslims after they hav econqured the place for islam. I guess they do feel that UK is their's now.
Remember, Pakistan is the internet black hole for child porn..
The current leftist hate campaign against conservatives in general and Sarah Palin in particular calls to mind the "Hate Week" and "two minutes' hate" passages in Orwell's "1984." Utter and absolute wickedness.
Rep. Peter King should proceed full speed ahead with his hearings.
Crazy white guy kills many. Lets talk about arabs, islam, terrorists, everything except...crazy white guy who has killed many, not least a young girl. talk about political gain. Why no public out cry against CAIR. And why did Mrs Clinton have to mention Arabs. At least let people bury their loved ones!!
I live in the Washington, DC area and know full well that the WaPo and affiliates are highly partisan. In the last year or so, they started to move slightly towards the center, but it is highly instructive to see how they respond to the shooting of Congresswoman Giffords. Indeed, their radio affiliate juxtaposed the plea of Rep, Steny Hoyer (D-MD) for greater civility with comments from Sarah Palin's campaign about putting certain Congressional seats in the election-year "crosshairs". never once did they reflect on the utter immoderation of the Move-ons and others who went to demonstrate at the Republican Convention in '08.
Further, they seem to ignore that there are hundreds of Islamic organizations, many with the backing of governments and "respectable" Islamic-world media, that are out to wage violent jihad on the rest of us; while Loughner seems to have acted alone.
"...between outstanding Muslims who contribute so much to the future of our country"
They always say that - but, I'd like some concrete examples. Who are these "outstanding" Muslims and exactly what are they "contributing?"
Examples, please. Names. Location. Their "outstanding contributions."
Waiting.
Leftist? The man is paranoid about one world government, chemtrails and currency manipulation... he's more Ron Paul than anything. I think it's fair to say he isn't left wing or right wing, he's moonbat paranoid conspiracy theory wing.
"Why single out Muslims, at least at this particular time? They are already under the constant watch of the FBI."
[Choke] Really? Really???
Well, I would hope that certain Muslims are under constant watch, but I rather doubt that many are, and if the WaPo is insinuating that many or most are then it is engaging in a straw man delusion.
These leftists are the "head up the butt" people. This new animated web movie "A Not Too Grimm Fairy Tale" exposes the insanity of the progressives with big time humor and gives us a new image (weapon) to combat them. the "head-up-the-butt" person.
http://www.marcrubin.com/hairmerica.ivnu
I'm sick of these sick people spouting their ugliness...
Aside from the standard double standard by Leftists who didn't mind a bit, as examples, when President Bush was regularly called a Nazi or when a play in NYC dealt with the assassination of Bush, what most caught my eye was the contention that universities have helped blunt "the appeal of radical Islamism." Exactly what has any university in any Western nation done to "blunt" such an appeal?
Unless we want to live like those folks do over in Muslim majority countries where killing a bunch of people at a supermarket is a common, ho-hum experience, by all means, Congressman King, get on with those hearings. (No matter what the Rodent Beverage says. ; )
What GerbilTea said.
Idiots on both sides jumping up and down screaming at the top of their lungs trying to score political points. Congresscritters trying to restrict citizens from carrying a legal firearm with 1000 of their pwecious widdle selves.
How 'bout everybody just calm the f**k down?
Left-wing flag-burner, right-wing lone-wolf...as Chris Rock once asked, "Whatever happened to crazy?"
I'm a psychiatrist. The most parsimonious theory for any phenomenon should be accepted, until it can be disproven.
Having read anything I could find about Loughner, I believe that the most probable explanation for his behavior is that he is schizophrenic. Tellingly, one of his friends stated that after he discontinued using alcohol and drugs in 2009, his disordered thinking and beliefs became much worse. He was probably self-treating with drugs. He is at the precise age for the onset of schizophrenia in males and it is likely that his parents protected him from legal repercussions of his previous threats. The Sheriff is a leftist and his mother works for Pima county. It isn't hard to imagine how those facts might have influenced the deputies to regard Jared as a "harmless eccentric" such that he was never detained as a result of his threats or compelled to obtain treatment.
Most probably the parents' avoidance of any contact with the press results from their needing time to figure out how to explain their failure to insist that their son get medical care. They must have known that he was mentally ill.
In my opinion, the probable diagnosis of schizophrenia far outweighs any hypothesized influence of Sarah Palin or other variables in explaining this man's behavior. Personally, I believe that the media played no role whatsoever in Loughner's behavior.
Here's some scary stuff:
"A Democrat who has pursued a wide range of leftist causes and has drawn the praise of ex-House Speaker Nancy Pelosi now wants to ban language and symbols that could be used to perceive a threat against a federal official."
That would be Pennsylvania Democrat Congressman Robert Brady. What "symbols" would he want to ban? One presumes he is referring to Sarah Palin's "crosshairs", even though a) this is common political imagery, and has been used by many figures all across the US political spectrum for many years—including the Democratic Leadership Council in 2004—where it is always regarded as entirely rhetorical, and *not* a call to harm anyone beyond voting them out of office; and b) there is no indication whatsoever that Jared Lee Loughner was inspired by any political "language" or "symbols" whatsoever.
This call for a crackdown on freedom of speech is very worrisome.
http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=249461
I amnot surprised. The Islamists will take any opportunity to instill fear among peoples. This is one of ther tactics. If only more peoples could see through their little games. I am confident more and more peoples will learn though.
"outstanding" muslims?????
I have yet to see an example of that.
"why single out muslims"
Gee, can't imagine why, could it be the constant seditious & terroristic activities?
I despise CAIR (named an unindicted co-conspirator in a Hamas-funding conviction, banned by the FBI, and with many of its leaders in jail or deported on terror-related charges and a proponent for sharia law in the USA) and it's slimy, bloody tactics.
They have no qualms about turning an unrelated tragedy to their advantage. Their inflammatory political rhetoric practically slithers off the page. I am disgusted.
King needs to continue with those hearings & we need to give him our full support. It seems CAIR will try anything to stop them. Waiting for lawsuit.........
Just caught the "rodent beverage" phrase out of the corner of my eye and nearly fell off my chair laughing. Good one!
And while i"m on the subject of CAIR, Pat Condell rips them a new one in his latest video, a must see.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ff3Qg6B_WY&feature=player_embedded
I'm sure you know that there is more than one type of schizophrenia...What type do you think he has? Paranoia? Do you think he may hear voices? He was observed laughing inappropriately...
gerbiltea - You claim you are a muslim convert! Can you tell us why you converted? What attracted you to islam? Have you read the quran?
You say your wife is an Indonesian muslim.
The strain of islam that used to be practiced in Indonesia was based off of the earlier very tolerant hindu/buddhist traditions that existed there. Is this what attracted you to islam?
The most important part of the hearings will be the closed door session where the FBI explains that personal security measures for members of Congress are entirely inadequate to deal with a Jihadist assassination campaign.
Will it change perspectives knowing politicians and politician's homes and families are targeted like in Iraq? Will OUR legislators have as much courage as the Iraqi politicians?
Don't you think that maybe Al Q is paying attention to the hyper-response to just one shooting? Remember it is a fine tradition: political assassination was a favorite tool of the not-so-grand mufti.
Will they at least issue Congressional logo bullet-proof vests and offer handgun training?
Reminds me of a song: "We've only just begun..."
Sad truth, but this is the unstated lesson from this shooting.
Agreed.
He should have been in a secure psychiatric facility, receiving appropriate medication.
My conclusion from this affair is:
observe how much damage a *non-Muslim* paranoid schizophrenic 'loose cannon' can do.
Then have a good long think about what happens when paranoid schizophrenia is able to combine with Islam - when a non-Muslim schizophrenic encounters Islam and (being drawn to the weird) converts, or when a schizophrenic is *born* into a Muslim 'community'. The angry or siren 'voices' in their head are augmented by the chaotic and murderous repetitions of the Qur'an, and the imam or sheikh deliberately points the resultant human cannon in the direction of the 'enemies of allah'.
Rep King should go right ahead with his hearing. The jihad doctrine of Islam is dangerous enough when it gets into and warps the brains of those born neurologically normal; it is ten times more dangerous when it encounters the psychically marginal, whether that be the psychopathic/ criminal type, or the plainly mad.
The craven nature of the Left in this country would be beyond belief if the evidence was not so everpresent and overwhelming.
Forget about the Muslim Brotherhood, you should be busy organizing a lynching for Sarah Palin. Not a word from these hypocritical slithering bastards when one of their precious muslims killed 13 people at Fort Hood. Not one call for the investigatin of the MB, of CAIR, of the military's policies with regard to Islamic sedition in its ranks. Not one effing word. But let a deranged conspiracy theorizing attention craving fellow leftist open fire and it's Hang Palin. Disband the Tea Party. Unplug Talk Radio. Repeal the First Amendment. Make "anger" a capital crime. Hand out prison sentences for "vitriol".
A bit too harsh an assessment? Have patience, they'll get there yet.
OK, here's my message to every whiner on the Left who wants me to sit down and shut up, especially any of you mouth-breathing libtards who may be trolling this column:
DROP. DEAD.
That "inappropriate and vitriolic" enough for ya?
Obviously, there is no connection between the Giffords shooting and Congressman King's hearings.
This is just another attempt to use it for political purposes.
Listening to conservatives and liberals blame each other as the cause of it just makes me more cynical. BOTH sides are at fault. Both sides should stop shouting like maniacs and try to talk in a civilized manner. Neither side wants totalitarianism. (And please, don't anyone respond to my post with your 'proof' that the liberals want it. I use to believe that. I don't anymore. you're not going to persuade me. It's NOT going to happen here.)
- Charles, Your post is the sanest thing I've read or heard so far about this terrible tragedy. Thank you.
http://www.npr.org/2011/01/09/132780313/sheriff-accused-shooter-unhinged-made-threats
Sheriff Clarence Dupnik of Pima County, where the shooting happened, told reporters the suspect had a troubled past. "All I can tell you is that this person may have a mental issue," Dupnik said.
Dupnik said there had been earlier contact between Loughner and law enforcement after he had made death threats, although they had not been against Giffords. He said the authorities believe he may not have been working alone.
http://thechollajumps.wordpress.com/2011/01/09/jared-loughner-is-a-product-of-sheriff-dupniks-office/
This is the report that Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik has been dreading since the tragic event on Saturday January 8.
The sheriff has been editorializing and politicizing the event since he took the podium to report on the incident. His blaming of radio personalities and bloggers is a pre-emptive strike because Mr. Dupnik knows this tragedy lays at his feet and his office. Six people died on his watch and he could have prevented it. He needs to step up and start apologizing to the families of the victims instead of spinning this event to serve his own political agenda.
Jared Loughner, pronounced by the Sheriff as Lock-ner, saying it was the Polish pronunciation. Of course he meant Scott or Irish but that isn’t the point. The point is he and his office have had previous contact with the alleged assailant in the past and that is how he knows how to pronounce the name.
Jared Loughner has been making death threats by phone to many people in Pima County including staff of Pima Community College, radio personalities and local bloggers. When Pima County Sheriff’s Office was informed, his deputies assured the victims that he was being well managed by the mental health system. It was also suggested that further pressing of charges would be unnecessary and probably cause more problems than it solved as Jared Loughner has a family member that works for Pima County. Amy Loughner is a Natural Resource specialist for the Pima County Parks and Recreation. My sympathies and my heart goes out to her and the rest of Mr. Loughner’s family. This tragedy must be tearing them up inside wondering if they had done the right things in trying to manage Jared’s obvious mental instability.
http://moelane.com/2011/01/10/did-dupnik-dismiss-loughner-threat/
I have a rule of thumb: if I write a post on a topic, and I get either hate mail or hate posts about it, then I’m onto something. Well, yesterday I wrote a post on Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik’s rather strange tactical decision to imply that the Chinese were behind Jared Loughner’s attempted assassination of Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords*, and I got both.
There...I hope that helped...
islam is a lie and
Truth is killing it.
I agree. Does everything have to be left-this and right-that? Can't we just be American citizens interested in stopping Islam from taking over our country? Divided we fall.
lilredbird, what a hateful mouth you have. Do you kiss your mother with that mouth?
Nah. I'm not leavin' lilbird. I learn too much here to drop dead.
Robert, what kind of pulse do you have on how we are doing in Congress?
I know you have been called in as an expert consultant to speak to Congress, and I know you have a new insider track in Rep. Allen West.
I have written to my congressman, and to Rep. Pete King, and to Rep. Allen West, and Rep. Buck McKeon about these matters.
Do you have a feel for how we are doing with advancing our influence in Congress?
Do you have high expectations for Rep. King's hearings as an educational tool or an opportunity for discussion to get our word out to our leaders and the public?
The latest from Tim Cullen, however imperfect, brings some desirable religiosity to the subject at hand:
The tragic slaying of six people—a nine year old girl among them—and the wounding of nine others by an apparently deranged young man is a human tragedy of the first order, but the politicization of it by commentators across the political spectrum is a tragic indicator of a society in an advanced state of spiritual decline. The human response to such tragedy is to express one’s sympathy to the families of those slain, to pray for their souls and to maintain a decent interval of decorous mourning during the most acute period of the suffering of the families. Tragically, this level of human decency has not been observed, almost certainly increasing the suffering of those whose loved ones have been lost.
To make matters worse, the ex tempore discourse of many can only exacerbate the societal tensions glaringly revealed by such indecorous behavior, highlighting the already horrific degree of narcissism apparent in a society that looks not to the spiritual vacuum that can produce such am event but rather focuses its attention on particular political agendas that the facts indicate are tangential to the root cause: a spiritual vacuity on the part of the slayer that should send chills down the collective spine of a society in which such a horror can take place.
Photos of the bizarre, voodoo-esque “shrine” set up by the slayer in the back yard of his parents’ home clearly point to an aberrance that should be abhorrent to any society that presumes to call itself “civilized,” yet few of the most vocal commentators look to this glaringly obvious fact as an issue that each and every family must contemplate in its effort to make sense of the senseless. Instead, the “discourse” focuses on political affiliations, on the slayer’s preferred reading matter, on laws related to firearms, on law enforcement deficiencies, on nearly anything and everything but the root cause: the diabolically distorted soul of the slayer.
When life is held cheap by a society, it should come as no surprise that a directionless and alienated young man lashes out against the innocent in a senseless outburst of murderous violence. While it may well be that this young man is “mentally ill,” there is no doubt that he suffered from terminal spiritual sickness well before he fired the shots that took the lives of the innocent. What, we must ask, could drive someone to hold human life so meaningless as to take it with such impunity? What dreadful spiritual state could inspire such evil? What twisted use of “reason” could impel someone to “make a statement” by slaughtering the innocent?
These questions are to a certain extent rhetorical, because the answers lie outside the realm of the “reasonable,” outside the realm of any spiritual state save the diabolical, outside the realm of a humankind concerned with the well-being of the human community. The massacre perpetrated by this dehumanized young man—himself very much in need of prayer for his salvation—is inexplicable if the spiritual is not taken into account.
A society that does not value any and all human life is a society doomed—perhaps damned—to suffer wanton and deranged tragedies such as that which occurred in Arizona. A society that has relegated the spiritual to a place beneath the political is a society suffering the sickness unto death.
Let us pray for the afflicted and the slain, let us pray for the sanctity of life, let us pray for an end to the diabolical. Let us cease to trivialize tragedy by focusing on the political and secular woes that afflict us all and pray for an end to such dreadful tragedy and for the triumph of the good as taught to us all by Christ.
It amazes me how the media can jump on this as an excuse to limit gun ownership and blame conservatives and the Tea Party. (The liberals have had ads worse than anything Palin said but that's not mentioned other than on Fox News) It's coming out now that the shooter had delusions and apparently paralleled some of his actions and strange behavior to some weird movies he watched. What they should jump on in this case is limiting crazy movies....... They just give weird ideas to people who are alreadys mentally off.
First that blod that fasle accue the sherif of not doing his job is so far rightwing carzy. First they might not have enought evidence to do anything or no evidence at all to act on. Of that far rightwing blogger is makeing this up.than da cannot appear in court durning than trail an say we believe this man murder his ex-wife without any evidences or proof to back it up or we think he did it is not good enought for me and many people.
DefenderofIslam: For the umpteenth time, please, PLEASE, download a copy of Firefox to use as your browser http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/firefox/ . It has a spelling checker that will catch the mistakes you make in every other word.
Yep Janaki, I'm a Muslim convert. I met Mrs. Gerbs a good bit after I had already converted some years back. My conversion story has been up here a few times the short answer is that I was rabidly against it so much that I eventually became acculturated and converted. You ask if I have read the Qur'an and the answer is yes in both English and Arabic. I think though the important question is if I had "heard" the Qur'an as I find much greater solace in listening to recitation than I do the printed word.
It was hearing it properly recited, sura Ya Sin, that started to melt my attitude toward the Muslims.
If you're asking what I find acceptable in Islam, I do so with the knowledge that Muslims have texts no more so incriminating than the other monotheistic faiths. I take significant issue with monotheism yet I believe it is the right path and can, if tempered properly, be a significant force for uniting people. Tawheed is a big deal to me, it drew me to Islam because I saw it not just in the absolute monotheism but also in the way Muslims worship. They do so very much in unison with no regard to your class or ethnic background though divided by sex much in the same way an Orthodox Jewish congregation is.
My wife is extremely conservative, much more so than I am. She's from Aceh and that's the most conservative (and shari'a compliant) corner of the country. Her culture though has a great deal of Hindu influence still in it from their dress, greetings and so on. While I enjoy Acehnese culture (especially the cooking!), it's a place with no movie theatres and a deeply divided society based on sex. I dunno, I don't much care for PDA but I would like to at least hold hands with my love in public.
"You ask if I have read the Qur'an and the answer is yes in both English and Arabic. "
Then how can you possibly think it to be a work of god? Do you not see the sheer bigotry and the call for violence in so many of the verses? The quran if it is read without supplementary texts is sheer nonsense (inspite of its claim of being a clear text). In comparison, the bible is for the most part lucid. And comparing Christ and mohammad is no brainer. Christ is the closest you can find to a God on earth in terms of what he preached whereas mohammad was simply a warlord who played on the ignorance of bedouins.
"I think though the important question is if I had "heard" the Qur'an as I find much greater solace in listening to recitation than I do the printed word. "
Hearing nice sounding words is not enough. Sometimes rappers can captivate, but when you hear the words you will find it filled with hatred and misogny.
"I do so with the knowledge that Muslims have texts no more so incriminating than the other monotheistic faiths. "
I have read the bible and the quran. I find quranic verses much more prone towards hatred and violence. In the bible the historical context is mostly very clear. Not so in the quran. This is why you will find more muslims ready to kill non believers than people of other religious denominations would be.
"I take significant issue with monotheism yet I believe it is the right path and can, if tempered properly, be a significant force for uniting people."
But is it the right path, though? About 70% of the current suicide attacks, terrorism etc. are linked to followers of islam. Obviously, islam has not lead them to be better persons. So how can it be the right path?
"Tawheed is a big deal to me, it drew me to Islam because I saw it not just in the absolute monotheism but also in the way Muslims worship."
You are mixing up monotheism with the eastern concept of "oneness with God". Monotheism in islam is that you must only worship allah and attest to mohammad as the prophet. This allah is a jealous being that cannot stand being associated with anybody. A very limited concept because it limits God. Moreover, attesting to mohammad as a prophet requires a willing suspension of disbelief. The mohammad as recorded in islamic texts is a terrible person, not a prophet.
The concept of "oneness with god" is much more powerful in hinduism and other eastern religions. In these religions you do not limit God to this form or that form and hate everyone that does not accept your concept. It is more like -worship God as per your spiritual capacity. If you want to think of God as one form, fine, if you want to think of many forms fine, if you want to worship the formless that is also fine. If you want to follow a teacher/prophet that is fine. If you do not and want to search on your own (like Buddha) that is also fine. All worship ultimately reaches the one and ultimate goal is oneness with God. The closest you can come to this concept in islam is sufiism which was anyway a result of islam learning from eastern and ancient iranian beliefs. Sufiism is not mainstream and certainly not based on the quran or on mohammad's teachings
"They do so very much in unison with no regard to your class or ethnic background though divided by sex much in the same way an Orthodox Jewish congregation is. "
I don't recall any christian congregation divided on the basis of class or ethnic background or sex. On the other hand islam clearly segregates women to a separate arena, inferior to men. But the idea that all people must worship at the same time, same number of times, bow in the same manner like zombies is too silly. People are different. Forms of worship should be different according to one's own spiritual progress. Trying to bring about uniformity in spiritual arena is the worst flaw in islam
"Her culture though has a great deal of Hindu influence still in it from their dress, greetings and so on."
Exactly. Which is why Indonesian islam used to be so tolerant. But now it is morphing into the orginal authentic saudi version and see the result. Upheaval in the Indonesian society, attacks on christian places of worship etc.
Y'know...I just told him the same thing a few threads ago.
Perhaps he enjoys looking like a low grade moron...
I'm wondering...what do you think abut your "perfect man" enjoying sucking on the tongues of young boys and girls?
Do you think that a perfect man should have sex with a corpse?
Do "perfect men" enjoy having men lick their chests?
And before you call me liar, you'd better check yo'sef befo' you wreck yo'sef. I don't lie. I use the Truth about islam to kill it. Not you...islam...the disease, the mental disorder that you are afflicted with, that you suffer from needs to die.
You are not suffering nearly as much as those that live in poverty created by the backwards teachings of your imams and ayatoilets. You don't care about that because there are no men, yet, walking the streets whipping those that are not at prayer. No one in your town is throwing acid in the faces of school girls on their way to a forbidden education. I'll wager that poison gas has not been unleashed on even one school let alone many while students were there defying sharia law.
Hypocrite. Your religion kills on a daily basis all around the world. The Phillipines, Egypt... But you see nothing but Peace and Love...like a drug soaked hippy of the 60s you are beyond communication. Your cult has you and you love it.
Now...answer my questions regarding the tongue sucking, the necrophilia and the licking of chests before we go on.
Tell me how that's all cool and above board...he was just experimenting...like in College....
Maybe after that we can discuss "thighing" and what the little green book of islamic jurisprudence has to say about it. Then, after you've seen the video, "The Dancing Boys of Afghanistan" you can explain all that away as well. Maybe the guys at NAMBLA will have some explanation you can use.
I have more after that...but you have a long row to hoe right now...or you can fail to answer and attack me personally instead and avoid all the perversions of your "perfect man".
islam is a lie and
Truth is killing it.
"or proof to back it up or we"
This little bit taken out of doi's post is, I think, a new record for words in a row that make sense and are spelled correctly by same.
Now...taken alone there is no real sense to it, however, for doi I think this is a real accomplishment and should, on it's own and not as part of his barely comprehensible post, be recognized as a milestone for our struggling defender. Eight words in a row. Wow.
"Then how can you possibly think it to be a work of god? Do you not see the sheer bigotry and the call for violence in so many of the verses? The quran if it is read without supplementary texts is sheer nonsense (inspite of its claim of being a clear text)."
The Qur'an reads fairly easy to me, I never had significant trouble with any of it. Tafseer certainly helps improve the experience but such commentary exists for the Bible and Talmud as well. I don't see you or anyone else here complaining that the Mishnah is "required" to fully understand some tenets of and questions raised in Judaism.
As for the calls to violence and sheer bigotry, please. I want you to find a single aya in the Qur'an that calls for absolute genocide as God commands in 1 Samuel 15:3
"And slay the Amalekites every man, woman, child and beast of burden"
That isn't unique either. Is it a call for offensive war against "infidels" for all time? Absolutely not, neither is anything from sura an-Anfal. The ayat most often complained about by people here all deal with Meccan polytheists, mushrikeen. If you're not a Meccan polytheist, what fear should you have? By the same token, if you're not an Amalekite, shouldn't the genocide of the Bible be significantly less scary.
I want to ask you though, why is it that God commanding this of Samuel and Moses (sallahu aleyhi wa sellam) OK but when our prophet does something comparable it's obviously awful? That's pure hypocrisy. Midianites, Amorites, Amalekites all killed to the last except where God and Moses (sallahu aleyhi wa sellam) supposedly suggest that the Hebrews should take the virgin girl children as sex slaves in Numbers 31:7-18.
"I don't recall any christian congregation divided on the basis of class or ethnic background or sex. On the other hand islam clearly segregates women to a separate arena, inferior to men."
When Catholicism rejects a male only clergy I'll agree with you. Christianity, for the most part, has adopted the most progressive stance when it comes to women. I dig that, I think that's great. There's room in Islam for the same sort of advancement.
Lemme give you an example. Muhammad (sallahu aleyhi wa sellam) was the EMPLOYEE of his wife, Khadija. She ran the business, not the other way around. Throughout the entire history of Islam, women have had the right to work and the right to keep what they earn (100% of what they earn, the husband has no right to it).
Or, for example, I paid a bride price, mahr, to my wife. Not to her family, not to any relative but to her directly. Why? Because if I die, she has an investment with which to support herself.
Islam has a LONG way to go to achieve equal rights for women but it's not impossible. It's only impossible if we (the Muslims) perpetually allow moonbat fanatics to pull the strings. Islam is very big on sex roles, in some ways this is very practical for other cultures and doesn't jive well with what we have established in America. I'm fine with sex roles as long as women aren't being forced to dress like ninjas or get stoned in kangaroo shari'a courts.
"Sufiism is not mainstream and certainly not based on the quran or on mohammad's teachings"
Sufism is generally accepted as being permissible in Sunni Islam. Most of the damn hadith aren't even Muhammad's (sallahu aleyhi wa sellam) teachings. They're all "so and so said so and so saw so and so say that the prophet said _____" Most of them are ridiculous and almost all came about long after the prophet was dead. For example, the hadith suggesting that men should not wear gold came to us from a line of transmission beginning with a SILVERSMITH.
Muslims accept all these hadith as being canon. Fine. They need to deal with the reality that many may not be legitimate.
"I'm wondering...what do you think abut your "perfect man" enjoying sucking on the tongues of young boys and girls?
Do you think that a perfect man should have sex with a corpse?
Do "perfect men" enjoy having men lick their chests?"
Which hadith are you referring to in specific? You mean the ones that Father Boutros trotted out that Spencer picked up on some years back? They were all da'eef. It's sort of akin to saying "I found this flyer on Islam and it said this so it must be true." No one accepts a weak hadith. If you want to pull something from Muslim, Bukhari etc. Sure, I'll roll with that. You can bring up that one concerning familial relations when you breast feed from Aisha or some such.
Basi bachi? I mean, really? The practice predates Islam by many centuries, it was a Persian practice. If you looked further into it you would see that the Taliban banned the practice for being...
UNISLAMIC!
One, possibly the ONLY case of jahiliyya being used for something good.
Serge Trifkovic, in 'Sword of the Prophet', on the fruits of Islam: the effects, visible across space and time throughout the entire history of Islam, both past and present, with a striking consistency.
“The fruits of attempted escape from the shackles of natural morality are as predictable as they are grim, for the Muslims no less than for their victims: both are enslaved, brutalized and dehumanized by Islam.
"The all-pervasive lack of freedom is the hallmark of the Muslim world.
Discrimination against non-coreligionists and women of all creeds,
racism,
slavery,
virulent antisemitism,
and cultural imperialism
can be found – individually or in various combinations –
in different cultures and eras.
Islam alone has them all at once, all the time, and divinely sanctioned at that.”
There is no presumed equality of different people’s claim to life, liberty or any pursuit at all in Islam.”
“The Qur'an reads fairly easy to me, I never had significant trouble with any of it. Tafseer certainly helps improve the experience but such commentary exists for the Bible and Talmud as well. I don't see you or anyone else here complaining that the Mishnah is "required" to fully understand some tenets of and questions raised in Judaism. “
Most of the bible is fairly understandable without commentary and there is a continuity. Only to understand further details do you need external texts. Read the quran without tafsirs. Sheer gibberish. Also the arrangement of the verses is not in a chronological order. Of course, with the tafsirs it turns out to be the handiwork of a 7th century primitive who simply manipulated people.
“As for the calls to violence and sheer bigotry, please. I want you to find a single aya in the Qur'an that calls for absolute genocide as God commands in 1 Samuel 15:3
"And slay the Amalekites every man, woman, child and beast of burden" “
“But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); “
is not genocide?
Mohammad ordering the beheading of jews in medina including boys is not genocide?
One genocide is better than another?
And if you don't like the stories told by the jews (which is not held as a directive for all time but more a historical accounting of an event that took place), then you have the superior teachings of Christ. Why would you choose mohammad over Christ?
”That isn't unique either. Is it a call for offensive war against "infidels" for all time? Absolutely not, neither is anything from sura an-Anfal. The ayat most often complained about by people here all deal with Meccan polytheists, mushrikeen. If you're not a Meccan polytheist, what fear should you have?”
Wrong. Quran is supposedly the "clear" guide for all times. So the commands are applicable always and serve to inspires the terrorists even today. And it is not only meccan polytheists that are the enemy as is clear in the following verse
" Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."
This means all non believers not just polytheists of Mecca.
“I want to ask you though, why is it that God commanding this of Samuel and Moses (sallahu aleyhi wa sellam) OK but when our prophet does something comparable it's obviously awful? That's pure hypocrisy. Midianites, Amorites, Amalekites all killed to the last except where God and Moses (sallahu aleyhi wa sellam) supposedly suggest that the Hebrews should take the virgin girl children as sex slaves in Numbers 31:7-18. “
I reject all calls of genocide as having come from God. However, people like Christ, Buddha and Zoroaster never caused genocide. They were truly men of God. I would submit that these men are worthier to follow.
“Lemme give you an example. Muhammad (sallahu aleyhi wa sellam) was the EMPLOYEE of his wife, Khadija. She ran the business, not the other way around. Throughout the entire history of Islam, women have had the right to work and the right to keep what they earn (100% of what they earn, the husband has no right to it). “
That is nonsense. Khadija employed mohammad before he became a “prophet”. Remember that mohammad got his revelation only in his 40th year when he had already been married for 15 years. Before islam muslim women could run businesses and were pretty independent. After islam women could not even go out without permission
“Or, for example, I paid a bride price, mahr, to my wife. Not to her family, not to any relative but to her directly. Why? Because if I die, she has an investment with which to support herself. “
Yes, in islam you buy the woman. But if you divorce her she gets nothing except the mehr. And you could take more wives or divorce her at will. So that is her only safety blanket especially if you don't allow her to work and she is not from a wealthy family with inheritance. In fact in shia islam you can buy/marry the woman for a few hours even
“I'm fine with sex roles as long as women aren't being forced to dress like ninjas or get stoned in kangaroo shari'a courts.”
What sex role? Those defined by the ignoramus of the 7th century?
How is it not force when quran mandates that a woman must pull the veil over herself to cover her bosom which is usually interpreted as a full face covering? You may be fine with your role as defined by islam. Thousands of people like me reject it and will not live by the terms of 7th century uneducated nomads.
“Sufism is generally accepted as being permissible in Sunni Islam. “
Tell that to the sufis that are being killed in pakistan as being heretic. Sufis have never been mainstream. Do you know why? Because they too build shrines for saints and kind of pray there. But sufiism was needed to make islam acceptable and it is popular only in the sub continent, Indonesia and to some extent Iran – basically only those regions that had a base of very tolerant earlier religions and cultures.
Perhaps GerbilTea would like to write a nice letter to this Saudi Sheikh, explaining to him where he is getting things wrong.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/01/saudi-sheikh-rejects-equality-between-muslims-and-infidels-men-and-women.h
GerbilTea has declared his devotion to Islam, and employed obfuscation and tu quoque to deflect critiques levelled by others here.
Let's contrast GerbilTea's pronouncements, with the discussion of Islam that we find in the work of one James Freeman Clarke (1810-1888) , who was, incidentally, a leading member of the Abolitionist movement.
IN his book 'Ten Great Religions', chapter 11, sections 5-7, he discusses Islam. The book was digitised by Project Gutenberg and can be read online, which is where I discovered it.
First, from section 5: 'religious doctrines and practices among the Mohammedans'.
"There is no recognition, in the Koran, of human brotherhood.
"It is a prime duty to hate infidels and make war on them.
"Mohammed made it a duty for Moslems to betray and kill their own brothers when they were infidels; and he was obeyed in more cases than one."
And:
"The two main divisions are into Sunnites and Shyites. The Persians are mostly Shyites, and refuse to receive the Sunnite traditions. They accept Ali, and denounce Omar. Terrible wars and cruelties have taken place between these sects. Only a few of the Sunnite doctors acknowledge the Shyites to be Moslems. They have a saying, "to destroy a Shyite is more acceptable than to kill seventy other infidels of whatever sort."'
More:
"Two recent travellers, Mr. Palgrave and Mr. Vambéry, have described the present state of Mohammedanism in Central Arabia and Turkistan, or Central Asia.
"Barth has described it as existing among the negroes in North Africa.
"Count Gobineau has told us of Islam as it is in Persia at the present day.
"Mr. MacFarlane, in his book "Kismet, or the Doom of Turkey," has pointed out the gradual decay of that power, and the utter corruption of its administration.
"After reading such works as these,—and among them let us not forget Mr. Lane's "Modern Egyptians,"—the conclusion we must inevitably come to is, that the worst Christian government, be it that of the Pope or the Czar, is very much better than the best Mohammedan government.
'Everywhere we find arbitrary will taking the place of law.
'In most places the people have no protection for life or property, and know the government only through its tax-gatherers.
** 'And all this is necessarily and logically derived from the fundamental principle of Mohammedan theology. God is pure will, not justice, not reason, not love.** {my emphasis - dda}
'Christianity says, "God is love";
'Mohammedanism says, "God is will."
' Christianity says, "Trust in God";
Mohammedanism says, "Submit to God."
'Hence the hardness, coldness, and cruelty of the system; hence its utter inability to establish any good government.
'According to Mr. MacFarlane, it would be a blessing to mankind to have the Turks driven out of Europe and Asia Minor, and to have Constantinople become the capital of Russia.
'The religion of Islam is an outward form, a hard shell of authority, hollow at heart.
' It constantly tends to the two antagonistic but related vices of luxury and cruelty.
'Under the profession of Islam, polytheism and idolatry have always prevailed in Arabia.
'In Turkistan, where slavery is an extremely cruel system, they make slaves of Moslems, in defiance of the Koran.
'One chief being appealed to by Vambery (who travelled as a Dervish), replied, "We buy and sell the Koran itself, which is the holiest thing of all; why not buy and sell Mussulmans, who are less holy?"'.
And then, n section 6 .
"Mr. Palgrave, who has given the latest and best account of the condition of Central and Southern Arabia, under the great Wahhabee revival, sums up all Mohammedan theology as teaching a Divine unity of pure will.
'God is the only force in the universe. Man is wholly passive and impotent.
**'He calls the system, "A pantheism of force."
'God has no rule but arbitrary will.** {my emphasis - dda}.
'He is a tremendous unsympathizing autocrat, but is yet jealous of his creatures, lest they should attribute to themselves something which belongs to him.
'He delights in making all creatures feel that they are his slaves.
'This, Mr. Palgrave asserts, is the main idea of Mohammedanism, and of the Koran, and this was what lay in the mind of Mohammed.
"Of this," says he, "we have many authentic samples: the Saheeh, the Commentaries of Beydāwee, the Mishkat-el-Mesabeeh, and fifty similar works, afford ample testimony on this point.
'But for the benefit of my readers in general, all of whom may not have drunk equally deep at the fountain-heads of Islamitic dogma, I will subjoin a specimen, known perhaps to many Orientalists, yet too characteristic to be here omitted, a repetition of which I have endured times out of number from admiring and approving Wahhabees in Nejed.
'"Accordingly, when God—so runs the tradition,—I had better said the blasphemy—resolved to create the human race, he took into his hands a mass of earth, the same whence all mankind were to be formed, and in which they after a manner pre-existed; and, having then divided the clod into two equal portions, he threw the one half into hell, saying, 'These to eternal fire, and I care not'; and projected the other half into heaven, adding, 'And these to paradise, and I care not.'...
""The Wahhabee reformer," continues Mr. Palgrave, "formed the design of putting back the hour-hand of Islam to its starting-point; and so far he did well, for that hand was from the first meant to be fixed. Islam is in its essence stationary, and was framed thus to remain.
"Sterile like its God, lifeless like its First Principle and Supreme Original, in all that constitutes true life,—for life is love, participation, and progress, and of these the Koranic Deity has none,—it justly repudiates all change, all advance, all development.
"To borrow the forcible words of Lord Houghton, the 'written book' is the 'dead man's hand,' stiff and motionless; whatever savors of vitality is by that alone convicted of heresy and defection...
And finally, in section 7, Mr Clarke observes:
"The merits and demerits, the good and evil, of Mohammedanism are to be found in this, its central idea concerning God.
" It has taught submission, obedience, patience; but it has fostered a wilful individualism.
" It has made social life lower. Its governments are not governments.
" Its virtues are stoical.
" It makes life barren and empty. It encourages a savage pride and cruelty.
" It makes men tyrants or slaves, women puppets, religion the submission to an infinite despotism."
Thus Mr Freeman Clarke's verdict on Islam.
I do not see anything, in all the myriad reports that come out of all parts of dar al Islam today, but most notably out of those parts where Muslims are most zealously pious, to contradict him.
There is a more succinct assessment of Islam-on-the-ground by one John Keats (not the famous poet, but an American who had taken part, with Filipino fighters, in the resistance against the Japanese invasion of Mindanao during World War II, and wrote about it in a book called "They Fought Alone" (1963).
During 2009 a fellow jihadwatcher found and read this interesting book, and shared with us the following passage from page 56:
"These hill Moros ...live according to the Koran as interpreted by some illiterate, flea-bitten imam who heard from some crooked hadji what was supposed to be in the Holy Book. What they get out of it boils down to polygamy, slavery and brutality."
Keats does make the mistake of assuming that the polygamy, slavery and brutality he saw practised among the hill Moros - the Filipino Malay Muslims - resulted from a *misunderstanding* of the texts of Islam. Alas: had he been able to examine those texts closely himself, and taken even a cursory glance at the history and mores of every part of dar al Islam, he would have found 'polygamy, slavery, and brutality' everywhere, issuing directly from the source texts, and all the worse the more *closely* those texts were obeyed.
Actually I've not seen anyone screaming and or jumping up and down so far. Idiots? I leave that to the leftists that, withing hours, blamed their perceived political enemies for the shooting.
I have yet to see any Conservative of note make a fool of themselves in the manner you describe.
That said, I have to agree with GT about the boy being crackers as hell. This has nothing to do with politics as the left would lead one to believe, nor is it about political rhetoric. It's about "crazy".
Ah...clearly you are aware of the actions of your prophet and his experimentation with necrophilia and the like.
You dismiss these facts with a wave of your hand.
"If you looked further into it you would see that the Taliban banned the practice for being..."
So, the Taliban and how they practice islam is OK with you. You fail to comment on that same Taliban gassing girls schools. Is the Taliban good or bad? I'd say that gassing school girls was a big no. I'd say that men that gas school girls need to die.
Sorry Pal.
You fail. No defense of what is nothing less than widespread and accepted pedophilia, banned by the Taliban or not, courtesy of islam. Yu just point out that the Taliban banned it. So what? Did you see how many men were there? Do you understand how widespread and accepted sex with young boys is there? No other religion accepts this behavior. You just say the Taliban banned it. No thought as to what made it happen.
No comment on the Ayatollah Khomeini's Little Green Book?
You know...the one that outlines the islamic way to have sex with an animal or a child, "as young as an infant"...?
Show me a book similar in any other religion. One that states how far a man may insert his penis in to the anus of another man before it becomes a homosexual act. Show me another book that comes close.
Your religion...wow. Sex with infants? Sex with animals?
"If a man has sex with his Father in Law or his Brother in Law the marriage will continue".... When does that come up? Apparently often enough that the Ayatollah had to lay down some rules concerning it.
nice... You can keep it...coward.
islam is a lie and
Truth is killing it.
+
Basi bachi? I mean, really? The practice predates Islam by many centuries, it was a Persian practice. If you looked further into it you would see that the Taliban banned the practice for being...
UNISLAMIC!
One, possibly the ONLY case of jahiliyya being used for something good.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/8257943/Paedophilia-culturally-accepted-in-south-Afghanistan.html
tell me another lie liar...