By now this should come as no surprise to anyone who has been paying attention to how Barack Obama has treated Israel since he has become president. And anyone who has read The Post-American Presidency knows that Obama's stance toward Israel as president is simply a continuation of his associations with antisemites and haters of Israel throughout his political career.
"In sharp reversal, U.S. agrees to rebuke Israel in Security Council," by Colum Lynch at Foreign Policy, February 16 (thanks to Pamela Geller):
The U.S. informed Arab governments Tuesday that it will support a U.N. Security Council statement reaffirming that the 15-nation body "does not accept the legitimacy of continued Israeli settlement activity," a move aimed at avoiding the prospect of having to veto a stronger Palestinian resolution calling the settlements illegal.But the Palestinians rejected the American offer following a meeting late Wednesday of Arab representatives and said it is planning to press for a vote on its resolution on Friday, according to officials familar with the issue. The decision to reject the American offer raised the prospect that the Obama adminstration will cast its first ever veto in the U.N. Security Council.
Still, the U.S. offer signaled a renewed willingness to seek a way out of the current impasse, even if it requires breaking with Israel and joining others in the council in sending a strong message to its key ally to stop its construction of new settlements. U.S. officials were not available for comment, but two Security Council diplomats confirmed the proposal....
Susan E. Rice, the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, outlined the new U.S. offer in a closed door meeting on Tuesday with the Arab Group, a bloc of Arab countries from North Africa and the Middle East. In exchange for scuttling the Palestinian resolution, the United States would support the council statement, consider supporting a U.N. Security Council visit to the Middle East, the first since 1979, and commit to supporting strong language criticizing Israel's settlement policies in a future statement by the Middle East Quartet.
The U.S.-backed draft statement -- which was first reported by Al Hurra -- was obtained by Turtle Bay. In it, the Security Council "expresses its strong opposition to any unilateral actions by any party, which cannot prejudge the outcome of negotiations and will not be recognized by the international community, and reaffirms, that it does not accept the legitimacy of continued Israeli settlement activity, which is a serious obstacle to the peace process." The statement also condemns "all forms of violence, including rocket fire from Gaza, and stresses the need for calm and security for both peoples."...
I look forward to the day when I can criticize the president without being called a racist.
This is so sad...and horrifying. I shouldn't be shocked by this by now, but it seems that each new low we sink to shocks me. I can't believe we are actually going to side WITH Hezbollah.
Going right now to a website that allows you to send pizza to IDF soldiers in the field. After that, contacting my Congressmen and Senators (although that isn't likely to help in my case).
The New American Government, NAG, is not Israeli friendly and is now going to tighten the noose...With the turmoil in the Mid East, a concern to Israel, with the turmoil going on in Iran and all its neighbors threatening Israel, the NAG takes the opportunity to turn its back on Israel...Good timing...I hope the NAG is nagged out of power in 2012...
The Muslim Brotherhood, since its creation in Egypt by Hassan al-Banna in 1928, has colloborate with or advised Hitler, and until today, still is Nazi-like, with another Islamic Nazi Qatar/Al-Jazeera based top cleric Yousuf al-Qardawi as its spiritual adviser who recently made a call to mass murder the Jews, and we're supposed to believe these evil Muslim Brotherhood's lies? Jimmy Carter, as of the suspected Muslim Brotherhood AGENT, Hussein Obama, are suspected to be Nazi-lovers too - what else could they be, for their slave-like worship of Islam and the Nazi Muslim Brotherhood?
The two unlikely countries that will eventually stand against the Islamists together with Israel is likely to be Russia and China.
Marxism and communism died in 1989 with the downfall of the Soviet Union. Russia and China no longer subscribe to Marxism.
Russia and China are the countries that know how to deal with the Islamists. For a start they should wipe out the Somali pirates not by going after them in the sea. But to attack the villages these pirates live. They have to go for the jugular. To annihilate them.
Written in the Koran is the call to exterminate the Jews. This threat should be treated with all seriousness. Destroy them before they destroy you.
l would like to ask any American liberal Jew why did you vote for Obumbler and continue to support the Demoncrats when they are so against Israel? the only thing l can come up with is that these liberals have a brain disorder and cannot help themselves to continue to elect Democrats.
It's too bad that siding with Islam will not get the US any new friends, but only obliterate the old ones. But what can we do. The Muslims are a million times smarter and are far ahead of the game. They got the third world, Latin America and Europe on their side. What can the US do under such pressures? They will force Israel to unilaterally withdrow from Judea and Samaria just like we did in Gaza without any peace agreement, any kind of commitment or even a recognition of Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state (which the majority of Europeans and "leftists" oppose anyway), and then they will attack us from all directions.
In this world, it's not only economic and military power that keeps you alive - in the human sphere intelligence counts a lot. The west has become dumb and crazy. Western academia has been taken over by radical leftists, turning much of humanities into politicized lies. These are the institutions that educate, or rather indoctrinate the future elites, shapers of public opnion, leaders, politicians and teachers. It's not for nothing Muslims get radicalized in the universities. It's not just the Muslim firebrands there, but the leftist firebrands who ideologically support them and affirm their worldview by vilifying the west while whitewashing the rest. Unless the west regains its brains it has little chance against adversaries and powers that are far smarter, absolutely selfish and long term strategists, as well as ruthless.
The leftist blinders prevent the west from correctly reading the global map. The west gives all kinds of advantages to its enemies, and thus will start from a lower point, which will make the conflict harder and demand far more casualties than necessary. Not taking the leftist road might have prevented this conflict altogether since it would have kept the west too strong to be chellanged.
As for Israel, we must, simply must, create and strengthen new alliances. The American-Israeli alliance is rapidly drawing to an end. Europe is still our largest export market, which might prove fatal for us. But Europe is in severe decline and will continue on this course if it doesn't take a sharp turn to the right in more than one way. The future is in Asia. Ben Gurion thought so 60 years ago, but at the time India and China didn't want relations with us as they were in the Soviet and Arab block. The Arabs got us kicked out and boycotted from anything Asian, even Asian sports games.
Things have change somewhat with the fall of the Soviet Union. The relations with India are growing on every level - military, sciense, technology, agriculture, energy, hopefully also culture in time. India had problems with its Muslim neighbors for a long time even when they were not speaking to us, so unlike the west, they will not see Israel as the source of the fallout with Islam and are less likely to panic into selling us to try and appease the unappeasable.
But we need to go beyond it, together with India, and create a union of Asian countries beleaguered by the Islamic-"Communist" alliance to somewhat counterbalance the increasing power of the anti-western Islamic-"Communist"-Latin American block because if we don't, Europe will join the winners, and then the US will have no choice.
President Obama's policies are racist. Jews (only Jews because we are Jews) may not build a home or an apartment in our own land. The land of Israel is indivisible. By stating the U.S. does not accept the legitimacy of Jews building homes in our land, Obama is putting America on record that Israel is illegitimate. That is where this is heading.
According to a poll, 93% of American Jews don't see Israel as any kind of factor in their voting. Which is pretty bad because about 40% of the world's Jews live in Israel. If Israel is destroyed 40% of the Jewish people will be exterminated. But they don't care one way or the other. There are also the anti-Israel leftist Jews who side with the enemy. They're not my people. At this point I trust even Israeli Muslims more so than leftist American Jews. I'm grateful for the ones who don't care since at least they don't serve the enemy with propaganda, money and polticial support.
American Jews who don't care about Israel, I'm afraid, could pay a high price one day. We cannot run away from who we are. I posted as much on a Jewish site (a few weeks back) quoting a prominent left-leaning American Jew who said: "I can't take the 'occupation' anymore."
I got clobbered by anti-Israel American Jews. I am guessing many were younger American Jews. This is a real problem.
While I don't agree with your analysis, I agree that the trend today is delegitimizing Israel entirely. Israel is the only state that discussing its right to exist has become mainstream and whose destruction has become a prevalent cause among "liberal" elites, as well as Arabs, Muslims and neo-Nazis. Huge Arab success. I also agree Obamadmin is contributing to it, starting with the Cairo speech in which Obama portrayed Israel as purely a result of the holocaust, never mentioning the thousands of years of Jewish history in and connection with our ancestral homeland. This is subtle propaganda to delegitimize the mere existence of Israel.
Israel has a million times more right to exist than "Palestine" that never existed as any kind of Arab state in history and is just an Arab and Muslim instrument to justify their intense desire to destroy Israel as they see its territory as Arab and Muslim land, but causing all this mayhem and murder for 0.2% of Arab conquered land the Jews got back will just make them look bad in the eyes of the world, so they needed to invent a new nation, the ARAB Palestinian "nation". Israel has also far more right to exist than the US itself, that was created by European invaders to a land that was never their own. Israel has as much right to exist as Spain that at some point was an Arab-Muslim country, part of the Arab-Muslim empire. So if Israel has no right to exist, Spain too should be "returned" to the Andalusian "nation".
What part of my analysis do you disagree with, may I ask?
I'm not sure which poll you are referring to. Polls I have seen indicate Israel is not the number one issue for the majority of American Jews when they go to the polls. It's down the list of priorities, which in and of itself is troubling to me. Perhaps I am wrong. Maybe you've see a new poll.
A few classic articles from my files, on the subject of the new antisemitism which is antizionism, and on the subject of the Jihad against the Jews.
Here is the first: a marvellous satirical piece, dripping with sarcasm, which deserves to be read aloud, dramatically, at any pro-Israel rally.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=3CEC078B-97FB-40F6-9617-8447061C0998
We Are Not Anti-Semites
By Steven Plaut
FrontPageMagazine.com | Thursday, December 11, 2008
"We have nothing against Jews as such.
We just hate Zionism and Zionists.
We think Israel does not have a right to exist.
But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.
Heavens to Mergatroyd. Marx Forbid. We are humanists. Progressives. Peace lovers.
Anti-Semitism is the hatred of Jews.
Anti-Zionism is opposition to Zionism and Israeli policies.
The two have nothing to do with one another. Venus and Mars. Night and day.
Trust us.
Sure, we think the only country on the earth that must be annihilated is Israel.
But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.
Sure, we think that the only children on earth whose being blown up is okay if it serves a good cause are Jewish children.
But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.
Sure, we think that if Palestinians have legitimate grievances this entitles them to mass murder Jews.
But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.
Naturally, we think that the only people on earth who should never be allowed to exercise the right of self-defense are the Jews.
Jews should only resolve the aggression against them through capitulation, never through self-defense.
But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.
We only denounce racist apartheid in the one country in the Middle East that is not a racist apartheid country.
But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.
We refuse to acknowledge the Jews as a people, and think they are only a religion.
We do not have an answer as to how people who do not practice the Jewish religion can still be regarded as Jews.
But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.
We think that all peoples have the right to self-determination, except Jews, and including even the make-pretend Palestinian "people".
But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.
We hate it when people blame the victim,
except of course when people blame the Jews for the jihads and terrorist campaigns against them.
But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.
We think the only country in the Middle East that is a fascist anti-democratic one is the one that has free elections.
But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.
We demand that the only country in the Middle East with free speech, free press, or free courts be destroyed in the name of democracy.
But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.
We oppose military aggression,
except when it is directed against Israel.
But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.
We really understand suicide bombers who murder bus-loads of Jewish children and we insist that their demands be met in full.
But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.
We think the only conflict on earth that must be solved through dismembering one of the parties to that conflict is the one involving Israel.
But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.
We do not think that Jews have any human rights that need to be respected, and especially not the right to ride a bus or sit in a cafe without being murdered.
But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.
There exist Jewish, leftist anti-Zionists and we consider this proof that anti-Zionists could not possibly be anti-Semitic; not even the ones who cheer when Jews are mass murdered.
These leftist anti-Zionists and the Neturei Karta are the only Jews we think need be acknowledged or respected.
But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.
We do not think murder proves how righteous and just the cause of the murderer is, except when it comes to murderers of Jews.
But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.
We do not think the Jews are entitled to their own state and must submit to being a minority in a Rwanda-style "bi-national state," although no other state on earth, including the 22 Arab countries, should be similarly expected to be deprived of sovereignty.
But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.
We think that Israel's having a Jewish majority and a six-point star on its flag makes it a racist apartheid state.
We do not think any other country having an ethnic-religious majority or having crosses or crescents or "Allah Akbar" on its flag is racist or needs dismemberment.
But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.
We only condemn the "mistreatment" of women in the country of the Middle East in which they are not mistreated.
But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.
We only condemn the "mistreatment" of minorities in the country in the Middle East in which minorities are not brutally suppressed and mass murdered.
But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.
We demand equal citizen rights, which is why the only country in the Middle East in need of extermination is the only one in which such rights exist.
But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.
We have no trouble with the fact that there is no freedom of religion in any Arab countries.
But we are mad as hell at Israel for violating religious freedom, and never mind that we are never quite sure where or when it does so.
But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.
So how can you possibly say we are anti-Semites?
We are simply anti-Zionists. We seek peace and justice, that's all.
And surely that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such."
Steven Plaut is a professor at the Graduate School of the Business Administration at the University of Haifa and is a columnist for the Jewish Press. A collection of his commentaries on the current events in Israel can be found on his "blog" at www.stevenplaut.blogspot.com.
Second item: from 26 November 2002. Comedian Larry Miller explains 'the middle East situation'.
http://www.jr.co.il/articles/politics/mideast.txt
"A brief overview of the situation is always valuable, so as a service to all Americans who still don't get it, I now offer you the story of the Middle East in just a few paragraphs, which is all you really need.
'Don't thank me. I'm a giver. Here we go:
'The Palestinians want their own country.
'There's just one thing about that: There are no Palestinians. It's a made up word.
Israel was called Palestine for two thousand years.
'Like "Wiccan", "Palestinian" sounds ancient but is really a modern invention.
'Before the Israelis won the land in war, Gaza was owned by Egypt, and there were no
"Palestinians" then, and the West Bank was owned by Jordan, and there were no "Palestinians" then.
'As soon as the Jews took over and started growing oranges as big as basketballs, what do you know, say hello to the "Palestinians," weeping for their deep bond with their lost "land" and "nation."
'So for the sake of honesty, let's not use the word "Palestinian" any more to describe these delightful folks, who dance for joy at our deaths until someone points out they're being taped.
'Instead, let's call them what they are: "Other Arabs Who Can't Accomplish Anything In Life And Would Rather Wrap Themselves In The Seductive Melodrama Of Eternal Struggle And Death."
'I know that's a bit unwieldy to expect to see on CNN.
'How about this, then: "Adjacent Jew-Haters".
'Okay, so the adjacent Jew-Haters want their own country.
'Oops, just one more thing.
'No, they don't.
'They could've had their own country any time in the last thirty years, especially, two years ago at Camp David.
'But if you have your own country, you have to have traffic lights and garbage trucks and Chambers of Commerce, and, worse, you actually have to figure out some way to make a living. That's no fun.
'No, they want what all the other Jew-Haters in the region want: Israel.
'They also want a big pile of dead Jews, of course--that's where the real fun is -- but mostly they want Israel.
'Why?
'For one thing, trying to destroy Israel - or "The Zionist Entity" as their textbooks call it -- for the last fifty years has allowed the rulers of Arab countries to divert the attention of their own people away from the fact that they're the blue-ribbon most illiterate, poorest, and tribally backward on God's Earth, and if you've ever been around God's Earth, you know that's really saying something.
'It makes me roll my eyes every time one of our pundits waxes poetic about the great history and culture of the Muslim Mideast.
'Unless I'm missing something, the Arabs haven't given anything to the world since Algebra, and, by the way, thanks a hell of a lot for that one.
'Chew this around and spit it out: Five hundred million Arabs; five million Jews.
'Think of all the Arab countries as a football field, and Israel as a pack of matches sitting in the middle of it.
'And now these same folks swear that if Israel gives them half of that pack of matches, everyone will be pals.
'Really? Wow, what neat news.
'Hey, but what about the string of wars to obliterate the tiny country and the constant din of rabid blood oaths to drive every Jew into the sea?
'Oh, that? We were just kidding.
'My friend Kevin Rooney made a gorgeous point the other day:
'Just reverse the numbers.
'Imagine five hundred million Jews and five million Arabs.
'I was stunned at the simple brilliance of it.
'Can anyone picture the Jews strapping belts of razor blades and dynamite to themselves? Of course not. Or marshaling every fiber and force at their disposal for generations to drive a tiny Arab State into the sea? Nonsense.
'Or dancing for joy at the murder of innocents? Impossible.
'Or spreading and believing horrible lies about the Arabs baking their bread with the blood of children? Disgusting.
'No, as you know, left to themselves in a world of peace, the worst Jews would ever do to people is debate them to death.
'Mr. Bush, God bless him, is walking a tightrope. I understand that with vital operations coming up against Iraq and others, it's in our interest, as Americans, to try to stabilize our Arab allies as much as possible, and, after all, that can't be much harder than stabilizing a roomful of supermodels who've just had their drugs taken away.
'However, in any big-picture strategy, there's always a danger of losing moral weight.
'We've already lost some.
'After September 11 our president told us and the world he was going to root out all terrorists and the countries that supported them. Beautiful.
'Then the Israelis, after months and months of having the equivalent of an Oklahoma City every week (and then every day) start to do the same thing we did, and we tell them to show restraint.
'If America were being attacked with an Oklahoma City every day, we would all very shortly be screaming for the administration to just be done with it and kill everything south of the Mediterranean and east of the Jordan. (Hey, wait a minute, that's actually not such a bad id . . .ooh, that is, what a horrible thought, yeah, horrible.)".
Third item.
A brilliant and brief exposition of the fact that the Arab Muslim war on Israel - which the Arab Muslims are supported by non-Arab Muslims world-wide - is, at bottom, nothing other than Jihad against the Jews.
http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/06/why_islam_will_never_accept_th.html
Why Islam Will Never Accept the State of Israel
By Steven Simpson, THE AMERICAN THINKER June 30 2010
Click on the link, anyone here who hasn't read it. Copy it. Keep it. Print it off and read it over and over until you know everything in it by heart. And keep copies of it in the car, and the briefcase, and the desk drawer, and on the end of the dining room table, to give to anybody who hasn't yet understood.
Fourth item.
Part of a posting, radiant with holy and white-hot anger, that Hugh Fitzgerald made, a propos the UN and Israel, back in May 2004, in this thread.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2004/05/california-officers-learn-muslim-culture.html
Scroll down through the comments to the posting -
Hugh | May 30, 2004 5:56 PM
and then read down some more.
Here is the portion that can and should be copied, and printed off, and read aloud by someone, or more than one person, on the steps of the United Nations building in New York:
"When one reads about some U.N. vote, in the Security Council or in the General Assembly,
"where the votes against Israel are usually on the order of 189 to 2, with a few abstentions,
"one is prompted to ask aloud of those ambassadors from civilized, or quasi-civilized lands,
" whether they can, when they return home to their New York apartments that night, and perhaps, mimicking Jean-Paul Belmondo in a famous scene in Breathless, looking closely at themselves in the mirror, how can they stand it?
"How can they bear to be participants in such hypocrisy and stupidity?
"Do they really believe the Arab propaganda?
"Is there something in the very atmosphere of the U.N. that causes people to lose their moral sense?
"And even if they are forced to follow orders from the foreign ministries at home, do they never protest? Never think to try to change those policies? Never seek to understand what is really going on in the endless siege of Israel?
"Never once try to identify with the Israelis, whose state was created because the civilized nations of the world, with men such as Clemenceau and Lloyd George, thought that it was, on the whole, the right and proper thing to do --
and the League of Nations regarded all of western Palestine, from the Jordan to the sea, as the very least that could be set aside
(when the Mandatory Power, Great Britain, unilaterally declared that the mandatory provisions regarding Jewish immigration and settlement would not apply to the area east of the Jordan, the Mandates Commission was horrified -- curious that no one bothers to consult, or make public, their remarks at the time).
"Do you look at yourself in the mirror, grimacing in the Belmondo manner, and reassure yourself about the day's events: "Well done, thou good and faithful servant."
"Are you proud of having joined the pack of wolves as they snapped at Israel, trying to bring it down to go in for the final kill?
"Or do you really believe that this war on Israel is really about "two tiny peoples, blah blah blah"?
"Exactly how stupid, or unseeing, are you?
"Do you ever -- you ambassadors from Germany, Italy, Great Britain, France, Poland, Hungary, Spain, and so on-- ever think about Islamic teachings as the basis for the permanent refusal to permit Israel to exist, whatever its size?
"And if it is its existence that matters, not its dimensions, then surely the Israelis should choose those dimensions that will both make their own defense strongest, and also make the other side believe those defenses are at their strongest.
"For only darura, necessity, keeps Arab states from attacking.
"The only thing keeping the peace in the MIddle East between the Muslim Arabs and the Jewish state, is fear by the Arabs of the consequences, and the ability of their leaders to note that Israel still is more powerful.
"But if that state is reduced in size, it is not only Israel that will suffer, but the Arab leaders who may not really wish to go to war.
"For, with a reduced and seemingly vulnerable Israel, they will no longer have the excuse (for the few who might want one) of darura.
"The very pressure put on Israel to further retreat is in fact leading not to peace but to war.
"There is no "two-state solution" -- and how can there be?
"What would Muhammad say -- yes, it's okay for the Infidels to have their own state, where the shari'a does not apply, and they are free to live as they wish, on land that was once part of dar al-Islam? Nonsense. Double nonsense.
"Were I a schoolboy, and in my school at every assembly there was a denunciation by 188 of my 189 classmates, of the one small scholarly schoolboy, sitting in the third row on the right, who seemed to want only to be left in peace to study, and who was constantly being harassed and bullied and threatened by a gang of 22 of the most unpleasant and violent of my classmates (who, let it be said, did not confine their aggression to that one schoolboy),
"I would behave as the American ambassador so often behaves
{behaved, alas; this is now 2010, and under Obama the USA has joined the lynch mob and is howling right along with the other wolves and hyenas - dda},
refusing to agree to the bullying, the lynch-mob mentality, the pious lies uttered and repeated and blandly accepted, about the "threat" coming from this single small boy, supposedly directed at those 22 bullies.
"Not to take that boy's side would have been intolerable. I couldn't stand it.
"But a great many of you ambassadors, and the Chris Pattens and Mary Robinsons of this great wide wonderful world we live in, find no difficulty in beating up, and beating up, that boy
(and I won't go in to that boy's tortured, difficult life, or what happened to so many of his relatives, through time and space).
"How do you stand it, week after week, month after month, year after year, the nonsense and corruption and timewasting and hypocrisy and stupidity and paralysis and stench of failure on the East River? I couldn't stand it."
And another scathing and sombre Hugh Fitzgerald piece, from 2008.
Anyone who has joined us since November 2008, and has not yet come across this piece - read it!
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2008/11/fitzgerald-21-reasons-why-barack-obama-is-wrong-about-israel-and-the-saudi-peace-plan.html
'Fitzgerald: 21 reasons why Barack Obama is wrong about Israel and the Saudi peace plan'.
"This [the proposal for the recognition of Israel by the Arab world in exchange for its withdrawal to pre-1967 borders] might work, IF:
1. If Islam did not exist.
2. If the doctrines that are inculcated into the minds of Muslims were not so clear, so consistent, and so deeply imbedded.
3. If instead of being told that they had a duty to remove all obstacles to the spread and dominance of Islam all over the world, Muslims were told that they should accept unbelievers as equals and not try to subjugate them under Sharia.
4. If in the minds of Muslims the recapture of territory deemed to have once been part of Dar al-Islam were not at the top of the list.
It is at the top of the list because Muslims may once have possessed it , no matter when, no matter how, no matter for how long or short a time. This is because land that had once become part of Dar al-Islam and is then repossessed by non-Muslims constitutes an even greater and permanent affront to Muslims than the fact that parts of the world have as yet never been conquered by Islam, when Believers know (for they are taught) that the whole world belongs to Allah, and to the Believers, the "best of peoples" (Qur’an 3.110).
5. If there were anything in the historical record to suggest that these deep beliefs were not taken permanently to heart. They explain not merely the uncompromising attitude (which can hide, or disguise, or make palatable to powerful non-Muslims whose aid is sought to pressure other non-Muslims) toward Israel, but a great many other attitudes.
The notion that if Kashmir were yielded to Muslim rule, the pressure on India from Muslims in Pakistan, Bangladesh, and within India, including acts of terror, would do more than most temporarily diminish, is also false.
6. If there were some evidence that in the past negotiations and "treaties" the Muslim Arabs had ever shown themselves willing to stick to such treaties and not, as Majid Khadduri notes, always and everywhere regard such treaties with Infidel states or peoples as made to be broken (on the model of Al-Hudaibiyya).
7. If the Israelis in particular had any evidence save for a few words that the difference between the Fast Jihadists of Hamas and the Slow Jihaidsts of Fatah were differences on ultimate goals and not merely on tactics and timing.
8. If the re-establishment of the Jewish commonwealth in modern Israel were not the incredible achievement it is. This commonwealth has been built in what was a dusty backwater of the Ottoman Empire. Despite every effort by the local Muslim Arabs to destroy it, Israel managed to be built and to thrive, and to offer an example. It is an example that remains unrecognized, but it is an example nonetheless that has had a civilizing effect.
Israel is an example of an advanced polity in the midst of darkness, not least in its treatment of minorities.
Compare the treatment of all non-Muslim and non-Arab minorities everywhere in Arab-dominated land, from Kurds and Berbers and Copts and Assyrians to black African Christians, pagans, and even Muslims).
9. If Israel did not have a perfect right to hold onto what was after 1948 the "West Bank." This is because of the express terms of the Mandate for Palestine. That Mandate was set up for the establishment of the Jewish National Home.
10. If that territory, seized by the Jordanians, had not then come into the possession of Israel by force of defensive arms in the Six-Day War, so that Israel's claim is reinforced by all the ordinary rules of territorial adjustment after a successful war of self-defense.
See how the map of Europe was rewritten after each of the two last world wars. Start with Italy's claim to the Alto Adige, which was once the Sudtirol and 98% ethnic German. It was awarded to Italy, and quite rightly.
11. If Israel had the vast financial resources of the Muslim Arabs, who have received more than eleven trillion dollars since 1973 alone, because of an accident of geology.
12. If Israel did not need to hold onto the heights of Judea, the traditional invasion route.
13. If the history of the Jews had not been written in Judea and Samaria and the loss of that territory would not deal an incalculable blow to Israeli morale.
14. If the local Arabs really were this entirely factitious "Palestinian people" invented out of the local Arabs, for clear propagandistic reasons, only after the Six-Day War. See Zuhair Mohsein, see a thousand others.
15. If Israel did not depend on the aquifers under the "West Bank."
16. If the Arab leaders, and even the leaders of Fatah, did not make completely clear to their own people that what they were smilingly saying to the Americans and the rest of the West could not possibly change their real intentions. Those who had come to realize that an all-out immediate assault was not possible were pursuing the salami strategy.
17. If Mahmoud Abbas himself had not shown, like Arafat, but far more plausibly and cunningly, with a great show of no-one-here-but-us-mild-mannered accountants, those true intentions on so many occasions.
18. If the Arabs had any ability to grasp the very idea that smaller peoples too, the Jews but not only the Jews, had a right to their own states, states that existed not as rump states, essentially dhimmi-states that could be dispensed with if the non-Muslims managed not to show the proper dhimmi attitude. And how long would it take the Arabs to find that anything at all, including the "treatment" of Arabs in a state reduced to retreat behind what even Abba Eban once called "the lines of Auschwitz," could be used as a pretext to fight against that rebellious dhimmi-state?
19. If the Arabs gave any sign that they would now be satisfied not with 14 million square miles of territory, but with the addition of a territory so tiny to them, but that meant life-and-death to the Israelis.
20. If the Arabs were willing to start treating other non-Arab and non-Muslim peoples (those Berbers, those Kurds, those Assyrians, those Maronites, those black Africans in Darfur and the southern Sudan and everywhere that they have been enslaved, still, by Arabs), not only with semi-decency, but as if they too had a right to their own autonomy or states.
21. If there were not every reason for the well-informed to recognize that an insidious game was being played, one that could be played only because so many in power, in a display of "pensee unique," simply have not bothered to find out what it is they need to know in order to think carefully about the fate of Israel and about the entire Middle East, and North Africa.
Indeed, they have not thought about the fate of the entire world, given that Islam now spreads its tentacles deep into Western Europe, where the understanding of the ideology of Islam has been slow, and given that the attempt to push Israel back can only lead to tears, and will use up all kinds of energy and capital that should be devoted to learning about and coming to grips with the problem of Islam. Instead, those who presume to lead and instruct us continue to perform salti-mortali {back-flips} so as to pretend that there is no permanent problem.
Given the worldview that Islam inculcates, and given the fact (spelled out by many scholars, but one might begin with Majid Khadduri's War and Peace in the Law of Islam) that no treaty signed by Muslims with Infidels should be permanently obeyed, but regarded as necessarily to be breached when the occasion presents itself -- given all this and so much more that one could set out here,
it is madness and cruelty and wickedness,
for those who presume to make policy in this area
to continue to ignore the real history of the Middle East,
and the history of the Jews,
and the history of how all the non-Arab and non-Muslim peoples are treated by the Arabs, and have been treated over the past 1350 years.
Above all, it is madness for anyone to be kept on in a policy-making position who still has not bothered to study Islamic doctrine and its impact in Israel, or Iraq or Afghanistan or Pakistan, or in the countries of Western Europe and their own growing domestic distempers.
Yet they still have not bothered to do so, so long now after the 9/11/2001 attack.
That day should have led but did not lead those whose duty it is to instruct and to protect us to hit the books, that is, the texts of Islam -- the Qur'an, the Hadith, the Sira -- and the studies of Islam by the hundreds of great Western scholars who wrote in the age (roughly, 1870-1970) before the Great Inhibition set in.
Instead, these leaders have not known where to turn.
They have been greatly impressed with the smiling diplomats or accommodating and gracious and so-generous Arab hosts -- from Prince Bandar with his well-practiced schtick, to the "plucky little king" Hussein of Jordan, now replaced by the same slightly less-attractive, but still plausible (Deerfield! a beautiful wife! perfect English! what else do you want?) son and his entourage.
Then there are the assorted smoothies who have managed to persuade the Americans that if only, if only, that pesky little Israel were put out of its misery, and brought kicking and screaming to make the deal that -- as the James Bakers and Edward Djerijians and even the most exhausted, end-of-our-mental-tether Israelis seem to think might be possible -- "everyone knows the broad outlines of."
But those "everyones" are wrong. Those "everyones" do not know.
They do not understand, the texts, tenets, attitudes, atmospherics of Islam.
That is what they do not know, and that, I'm afraid, is just about everything that, in an intelligent and well-run polity, they would be required to know."
- Posted by Hugh at November 16, 2008 8:13 PM
And a news report featuring the wise Geert Wilders' views on those Jewish villages in Judea and Samaria, and those Jewish houses in Jerusalem. A news report introduced and analysed by Hugh Fitzgerald.
http://www.newenglishreview.org/blog_direct_link.cfm/blog_id/31105
Tuesday, 7 December 2010
'Geert Wilders States What To All Educated People Should Be The Obvious'.
Final thought.
Canadian jihadwatchers should, perhaps, write forthwith to PM Stephen Harper and tell him that if he genuinely means to stick up for Israel no matter what, he is likely soon enough to be put to the test.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/11/canadian-pm-vows-to-stand-for-israel-regardless-of-the-cost.html
'Harper said Israel may be subjected to fair criticism, and noted that Israel subjects itself to such criticism as part of a healthy, democratic debate.
'But he spoke of a "solemn duty" to defend the vulnerable and challenge the aggressor at home and abroad.
"Not just because it is the right thing to do, but because history shows us, and the ideology of the anti-Israel mob tells us all too well, that those who threaten the existence of the Jewish people are in the longer term a threat to all of us."
Fine words, Mr Harper. The thing, though, will be to live up to them.
And it looks like Jose Maria Aznar and his 'Friends of Israel' group ought to get to work to see what they can do.
http://www.onejerusalem.org/2010/06/former-spanish-president-stand.php
"Once to every man and nation/ comes the moment to decide/ in the strife of truth with falsehood/ for the good or evil side;/ through each choice God speaking to us/ offers each the bloom or blight/ then that man or nation chooses/ for that darkness or that light".
It used to be that you could at least solidly count on the United States to vote in support of fellow democracy Israel on these things.
Under Obama, *that is no longer a given*.
On his show today, Glenn Beck read through several instances of Jihad madness, and then he came to this story.
He simply said, in a tone dripping with sarcasm, "that one made me proud to be an American".
With a heavy heart, I feel just the same way.
"While I don't agree with your analysis...."
________________________________________________________
What part of my analysis do you not agree with?
Thank you for this great contribution. I've bookmarked it all. Thank you particularly for the satirical/sarcastic stuff. If I won't have my daily laughs I think I'll just go crazy.
Wow DDA, you certainly are a busy bee today. Thank you for the wealth of information you have contributed. It always helps to be pointed in the right direction.
Happy to be of service. And, I hope, not merely to you but to others, whether Jewish or Gentile, new to this subject, reading over our shoulders today or liable to google their way in here in future, who may not have come across those particular items before.
A word of advice.
If you really, really like something - be it an online article or someone's posting here - don't just bookmark it. Make a bookmark; but also copy the whole text and put it on your hard disk in a suitable file. In some cases, print it off on paper.
Because links, I have found, do have a nasty habit of breaking, with the passage of time.
All the material I shared today I have complete copies of, in a couple of files on my home computer.
Wildjew it is true that Israel is not the number one priority of the majority of American Jews when they go to the polls, and there is a reason - American Jews (also British Jews, and Jews from all over the world) are starting to care more about what is going on in their own countries, where they are citizens, than what is going on in Israel.
Aid to (and even support of) Israel is no longer a top priority for Jews and others in many countries. Jews are starting to pay more attention to what is going on politically in the countries they are citizens of, and how it affects them as citizens, not just as Jews. In my view, for far too long, many American and other Jews have been totally focused on a country not their own (and the truth is, many of them would not dream of living there) – thus they ignore completely the problems of the countries they are citizens of, choosing only to consider how what goes on in America, the UK and other countries affects Israel and themselves as Jews. Somewhere along the way some of these Jews who are truly “Israel-firsters” have forgotten the loyalty they owe to the countries they live in, and how the push for the payment of billions of dollars of aid to another country affects these countries in the present dangerous financial climate. The UK and America cannot be blamed for wanting to look out for their own interests, financially and economically. Added to this, many non-Jewish Americans, Brits etc. see a group of people who appear to care only about themselves – so it is not surprising Americans and others are waking up to the fact that aid to Israel is a low priority, when their own country, America, the UK or elsewhere – is in poor financial (and political) shape. That is why I disagree with your statement that American Jews who don’t care about Israel will pay a high price one day. If those who don’t want to settle there do not acknowledge the aspirations and concerns of the country they are citizens of, and fight against injustice, corruption, and the steady invasion of Islamism in America, alongside their non-Jewish neighbours, they will truly pay a high price – when the true battle starts, they will be forced to stand alone because they do not see fit to consider themselves connected to the countries they live in.
I lived in Israel for many years. I came back to the UK, but I kept abreast of what was going on there. I know now that the Israel I once knew doesn’t exist any more – its idealism and integrity has been swallowed up by greed and racism, even between one Jew and another. Therefore, I will not go back – and I think that as a British citizen, my loyalty must be to the good of my country, the UK. That is not to say that I do not care what happens to Israel, because I do, and I support Israel’s right to exist in security – but I live here in the UK, and fighting Islamism here is more important to me than constantly fixating on what is going on in Israel.
Jamie, before I address some of your earlier points, allow me to address your misleading and (I believe) slanderous later charge that Israel has been swallowed up by "racism." You could say the same thing - indeed many do - about Robert Spencer, Pamela Geller, David Horowitz, Frank Gaffney, Brigitte Gabriel, Geert Wilders and many other "anti-Muslim racists" and "Islamaphobes. I do not know where you are coming from with this allegation. Would you care to elaborate for the reader.
You say you disagree with my statement that American Jews who don’t care about Israel will pay a high price one day. I wrote earlier American Jews who do not care about Israel's welfare "could" pay a high price. I am not God. I am not a prophet. I have read some Jewish history. Jews and our leaders who spurned the Zionist movement in the early part of the twentieth century in Germany and parts of Europe; Jews who considered themselves "Germans first," Jews who were patriotic Germans, who were warned to evacuate the ghettos of Europe but chose (they, their rabbis and communal leaders) to remain in Germany and parts of Europe experiencing unprecedented anti-Semitism, many did indeed pay a high price. Many were murdered. Many died in Hitler's gas chambers. That is a fact Jamie.
Incidentally, I have long advocated that Israel should wean herself from American aid. I believe it would be good both for the U.S. and for Israel. Israel's unhealthy dependency is good for neither country. Nor do I accept your view that being a loyal American (or for that matter, British) citizen and at the same time, caring about Israel's security and welfare are mutually exclusive as you seem to think. Many American Christians and Jews support Israel based on their religious faith. Beyond that, Israel is on the front lines, fighting the global jihad. Given that fact alone, why do you believe American (and British) Jews and Christians should not support Israel?
Jamie sez: "but I live here in the UK, and fighting Islamism here is more important to me than constantly fixating on what is going on in Israel."
What happens in Israel will migrate to the UK and elsewhere...Everyone should watch closely what happens in Israel...
Wildjew - you say I have slandered Israel as being racist. This is not slander - it is the truth. Mizrachi Jews in Israel are considered second class citizens as compared to Ashkenazi Jews. When I first lived there Ashkenazim were concerned that their children should not marry "black" Jews (Mizrachim). You must have read how many orthodox Ashkenazim consider Mizrachi religious Jews "not Jewish enough". If this is not racism, then what is? Also, the contempt of religious Jews for Reform Jews in Israel is a form of racism, is it not?
This youtube tells of the complicity of the Israeli government in stopping reparation payments being paid to Holocaust survivors in Israel
http://rt.com/news/prime-time/israels-shame-as-holocaust-victims-die-in-poverty/
Not racism, exactly, but appalling treatment of elderly people.
These are not the actions of a democratic humane country, are they? The whereabouts of the money they should have received is still not known.
Regarding the Jews who spurned the Zionist movement in the years before the Holocaust and paid a high price - many Jews who did not spurn the Zionist movement also died in the Holocaust. I seem to remember reading that Golda Meir and her colleagues were considering letting only able bodied Jews who met certain criteria into Palestine at one time - a sort of quota system. What subsequently happened in Europe forced them to change their minds.
Wildjew, I do not think being patriotic to the country you live in and caring about Israel is mutually exclusive, however you must admit some Jews are obsessive about it, and constantly view everything that goes on in their own countries solely as being good or not good for Jews. Support of Israel is one of the main things they judge this by, calling those non-Jews who do not support Israel anti-Semites, (and Jewish people who simply have no interest in Israel self-haters) - and it increasingly ticks off many of their non-Jewish compatriots who are not anti-Semitic at all. Some of them feel they have the right to ask these Jews entirely innocently why they do not live in Israel, because they seem to be more interested in Israel than the country they live in - and they are smeared as anti-Semites in return. Some, especially those who have friends who have been killed and maimed in the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, ask why Jewish people rush to join the IDF, and not their country's army. These are perfectly logical questions, but when reacted to in this way it hardly endears Jewish communities to their neighbours, does it?
Wildjew countries like America, the UK and others in Europe, are in crisis, both financially and because of the demographic dangers of Islamic migration. They cannot be blamed for wanting to put themselves first, and are becoming more and more nationalistic as time goes by. While we're concentrating on Jews who do support Israel right or wrong, shouldn't we spare a thought for those Jews who have no affiliation to Israel at all, to whom Israel is just another country, who are nevertheless tied in with this "all for Israel" group by those who don't realise this?
Dumble,
"Sure, we think that if Palestinians have legitimate grievances this entitles them to mass murder Jews."
I have perused (not read carefully) all prior comments. I believe that I have read a little about the history of the dispute to have formed some reasonably intelligent, well-founded opinions. The mideast dilemma is an amalgamation of complex issues, both with historical and modern sociopolitical components. Here, in a nutshell, is how I see things.
First, I do agree that the nation-to-be of Palestine owes its very existence to the Jews and, in particular, to the success of Israel against the combined Arab nation state enemies, e.g., Egypt, Syria, Jordan, in the war of 1948. Ironically, if the Arabs had won surely the land mass that was designated as Israel would have been divided up among the neighboring Arab states and there would be no Palestinians or Palestine. But if Israeli supporter are going to rely on the UN mandate to legitimize the lawful existence of the state of Israel, it seems to me they have to acknowledge that the same mandate provided for establish-ment of a new Arab nation state as well.
As a result of the success in the 1948 war Israel acquired some additional territory that was not originally part of its U.N mandated boundaries - defined by the so-called Green line. No one seriously maintains that Israel has to
return land within the Green line.
The question of land that was aqquired as a result of the 1967 (and 1973) war is a more intensely debated issue. After all, the land that Israel seeks to annex permanently via settlements was not part of the original UN mandate. It was designated for the creation of a separate Arab nation state.
Some say that since Israel was not the aggressor in the 1967 war (a conclusion that can be seriously debated), it is under no obligation to relinquish territory it acquired as a result of its victory. After all, there was no state that formally occupied the acquired territories so under international law, the argument goes, there is no illegal occupation of a foreign state or other violation of international rules of war. Hmm.
I am not totally ignorant of the more modern history and the myriad of issues both sides have had to confront, to wit, Israel's unpopular peace with Egypt and Jordan, the Oslo accords, the rejection by Arafat of the reported Israeli offer to return approx 95% of the west bank territories (which I believe gave rise to Abba Eban's quip that the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity), first and second infitadas, the so-called suicide bomb attacks, the wall, the alleged mistreatment by Israel of west bank Arabs including civil detainment imprisonment with questionable legal process, the severity of the Gaza blockade, the questionable control of aquifers and tax proceeds by Israel, the constitutions of Hamas and the Party of God calling for the elimination of a Zionist entity on holy land, etc. Each side has its hawks and doves though there appear to be fewer Arab doves. Perhaps that because the Arabs living under Israeli control see themselves as an occupied people, a not entirely unreasonable belief.
So, now back to the quote lifted from Dumble's post. What, exactly, are the legitimate grievances that Palestinians have with Israel? Why is not right to question the extent of settlements Israel has established and seeks to expand on land that was originally allocated by the UN to the new Arab nation? To what extent should the demographics be ignored? If it is understandable to preclude the right of return to millions of Arabs in any peace deal because the demographics would alter the Jewish character of the Isrraeli state, why are the construction of new Jewish settlements are Arab allocated land any less offensive than insisting on a massive right of return.
A couple of decades ago the progressive slogan in Israel was "land for peace." It seems to me that proposition is still valid. Israel needs to withdraw from many of its newly established settlements. Deed the property Arabs who can establish a valid claim for property abandoned in the 1940s as reparations in lieu of a right to return.
OK, now I understand your point. When you spoke of racism, I thought you were referring to Israelis who properly are concerned about, even fear - maybe loathe - "Palestinian" Muslims who want to kill our women and children living in the land of Israel.
I am aware of this discrimination you speak of, Ashkenazi discrimination toward Sephardic Jews, religious antagonism toward secular Jews and secular antagonism toward religious Jews. While I agree this discrimination is a problem, I do not believe most decent Jews living in Israel feel this way. I know this is the case. Jews in Israel have been addressing this problem and I fully support them. I've got to admit however, 'extremists' in both secular and religious camps do try my patience from time to time. I cannot accept your term "racist" because I believe we Jews are a race (we are one nation), because we have a common ancestor, Abraham. Discrimination, Ashkenazim toward Sephardic Jews is unacceptable to me. Every nation has some discrimination. Israel is no exception. That does not make it right but it does not make Israel a "racist" state.
Had I been living in Israel in the early nineteen fifties when German compensation was hotly debated, I would have been on the side of those who did not want any blood-money from Germany. How can Germany pay for her crimes against the Jewish people? Can money bring back the dead?
I have read about this problem (Holocaust survivors) in Israel. It is my understanding the government has been addressing it and rectifying it. I did a quick Google search on this news site "RT" (Russian News?) which looks to be a conspiracy-mongering, anti-Semitic news site. Glenn Beck apparently did an exposé critical of the site. I saw a video where they were propagating this myth by some Swedish "journalist" that Israel has harvested organs from Palestinian Muslims. Enough said about RT I think.
The problem is this. As soon as I am able, I will immigrate to Israel. I can see the trend here in the West. I can see Islam is on the march in Europe and in America. Europe has all but capitulated but some Americans are fighting back which is slowing the onslaught. But the American people at large elected and support Obama. This bodes ill for America's long term health. I know what it will be like for Jews in Diaspora when Muslims have power. Since 9/11, I have been studying Islam, like many who read this site.
Whether Jews were friendly or unfriendly toward the Zionist movement, few Jews returned to Israel in the early twentieth century. Few Jews understood the times in which they were living. I understand the times in which we am living. I can see the proverbial writing on the wall. I hope to not make the same mistake our parents and grandparents (many) in Europe made. As a conservative, I am no fan of some of the socialist-leaning politicians and activists in the early Zionist movement; socialists like Golda Meir and Ben Gurion. Had I been alive then, I would have allied with the Revisionists like Jabotinsky, Begin and the others who fought for unlimited Jewish immigration to Israel from Europe, rather than the selective immigration you described. Meir and Ben Gurion wanted Jews who would do the back-breaking work necessary to build-up an agrarian-based state. These may be noble objectives - agriculture is my profession - but we Jews cannot afford this luxury of selective immigration. Israel has moved on from that foolish kind of thinking within Histadrut and other left-leaning organizations. Now we have the Law of Return granting every Jew the right to make Aliyah.
You say countries like America and the UK and others in Europe becoming more nationalistic. I worry about Muslim immigration (of course) as I would any people or ethnicity or religion who immigrate and will not assimilate but will instead constitute an enemy within, dedicated to subverting our freedoms.
Apart from Muslim immigration, America has a history of xenophobic / anti-immigration sentiment. Early America distrusted Catholic immigrants. Then it was the Irish, the Germans, Japanese and the Jews. Why do you think some 6 million Jews were murdered by the Nazis, while so few immigrated to the United States? It was because of stringent quotas supported by the public. Why did FDR turn the SS St. Louis -- full of desperate German refugees -- back to Europe where most were murdered by the Nazis? FDR had the pulse of the nation. FDR knew the public did not want any Jews from Europe; not even Jewish children. This is what concerns me about this term you use, "nationalism." Nazi Germany was built on this concept of race, blood and fatherland. That is why so many Christians in Germany were dupped. Nazism is not consistent with Christianty(nor is nationalism) but the Church embraced Nazism, as well as Nazi leaders with very few exceptions.
That is the end result of nationalism in many cases. Try to prevent people from immigrating who will destroy your nation from within; fine. I see much nativist, xenophobic sentiment in this nationalist movement you describe and it is not good. America is a nation of immigrants. Mostly this has been positive.
When you say there are Jews who are obsessive about Israel, you will have to provide some examples. You might think I am obsessive about Israel. I already told you, I would like Israel to wean herself from U.S. aid. What then is obsessive?
If I might, I think you are confusing two different terms; the 1922 League of Nations Mandate (given to the British) for what was to constitute the Jewish National Homeland in Palestine, and the 1947 United Nations partition plan. The League of Nations Mandate, which the United Nations inherited, did include all of what constitutes modern Israel and much more. In November 1947, the United Nations voted to partition Israel ("Palestine") into separate Jewish and Arab territories. The Zionist leadership in Israel reluctantly accepted the plan. The Arabs living in Israel as well as the Arab states surrounding Israel, outright rejected the plan, opting for wars of annihilation instead. What we call the (1948-1949) 'green line' is (are) armistice lines that were agreed to by the warring parties (Israel, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt) but by no means were they accepted as borders; the Arabs hoped in subsequent wars to drive the Jews back and then entirely out of the land of Israel.
Jamie wrote:
Aid to (and even support of) Israel is no longer a top priority for Jews and others in many countries. Jews are starting to pay more attention to what is going on politically in the countries they are citizens of, and how it affects them as citizens, not just as Jews. In my view, for far too long, many American and other Jews have been totally focused on a country not their own (and the truth is, many of them would not dream of living there) – thus they ignore completely the problems of the countries they are citizens of, choosing only to consider how what goes on in America, the UK and other countries affects Israel and themselves as Jews.
..............................
With all due respect, Jamie, I think this characterization of Jewish supporters of Israel in the West is entirely inaccurate. Many Jews have been heavily involved in the social life and politics of Britain, the US, and other Western nations they live in *as well* as Israel. These involvements are *hardly* mutually exclusive.
Jewish citizens in the West have contributed *enormously* to their own nations.
More:
Somewhere along the way some of these Jews who are truly “Israel-firsters” have forgotten the loyalty they owe to the countries they live in, and how the push for the payment of billions of dollars of aid to another country affects these countries in the present dangerous financial climate. The UK and America cannot be blamed for wanting to look out for their own interests, financially and economically.
..............................
I believe that support of Israel—a strong ally and fellow Western-style democracy—is *very much* in the interests of the West.
Incidentally, I am non-Jewish myself.
The fall of civilized Israel would not only be a horrifying disaster for Jews, it would embolden the Muslim world to attack the West more than any other event I can conceive of.
Supporting Israel is in the interests of *all civilized peoples*.
Darmanad
You obviously didn't read one of the articles I linked:
http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/06/why_islam_will_never_accept_th.html
'Why Islam Will Never Accept the State of Israel'.
When dealing with Muslim entities - and the Arab Muslims in and around Israel are such an entity, or entities - any kafir entity that thinks it can trade 'land (or any other kind of concession, or bribe, or mollification) for peace' is deceived, and will be bitterly disappointed.
Here's Hugh Fitzgerald's lapidary summation of the matter, as expressed in a comment on *this* thread, in 2006.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2006/08/will-cease-fires-never-cease.html
"the same tired Zionist propaganda...." -- from a posting above
' How, one wonders, is what Thomas Sowell wrote about the silliness of these ceaseless, unceasing, never to permanently lead to a permanent peace but only to more war, followed by more ceasefires, the expression of the "same tired Zionist propaganda" of which the poster fails to offer up any example?
'And what "tired Zionist propaganda" is that, anyway?
'For the last forty years, all over the world, the Arab and Muslim propaganda machine has run circles around the naive Israelis,
'who seem incapable of understanding the nature of the enemy they face,
'or are unable for reasons of realpolitik to describe accurately that enemy,
'or even out of fear of damaging morale
(no one likes to be told that the threat to his nation is a permanent one, prompted by the immutable tenets of a belief-system with hundreds of millions of thoroughly brainwashed believers).
'From the 1967 defeat on, the Arabs have carefully redefined the conflict for the consumption of Infidels.
'Some of those Infidels were non-Western, in black Africa, for example, whose leaders were bribed in all sorts of ways to cut the very beneficial ties with Israel that had been formed in the 1950s and 1960s, and which were based on Israel's excellent aid programs, especially in the area of agriculture. In return a few despots were paid off, but black Africa received nothing of the promised Arab aid, and ever since Black Africa has been taken contemptuously for granted by the inheritors of the Arab slaving-mentality
(as some Western students of Arabic, after a semester in Cairo or in Damascus can testify, the most open and virulent expression of anti-black racism is to be found in Arab countries),
and of course the support by Muslims, including those Egyptian pilots who strafed Ibo villages during the Biafra War, for local Muslims, has been clear, and everywhere Christianity and black African Christians have been attacked by the forces of Islam, most obviously in the southern Sudan.
'And in India and other countries of Asia and, to a lesser extent, Latin America, the Arabs presented themselves as fellow members of the so-called "Third World" even though those same Arabs and their states were, because of an accident of geology, the beneficiaries -- entirely unmeritorious beneficiaries -- of the largest transfer of wealth in human history.
'Funny, was it not, how Bolivian peasants, and the poor of Calcutta, supposedly have so much in common with the rich Arabs who make up nearly all of the membership of OPEC.
'But in the Western world, there had to be something else.
'And that something else was of course to appeal to Western guilt, however unnecessary that guilt may have been,
'and to invoke a "colonial" past that hardly applied to the Arab countries,
'save briefly (40 years) to parts of North Africa (Morocco and Tunisia), for it was the Arabs who were freed from Turkish rule, and who within a decade or two received their freedom from the benign rule of mandatory powers in Iraq, in Syria, in Jordan, or who had been beneficiaries of the British who ran an efficient and honest civil service in Egypt (for the first and last time in Egypt's modern history), and who in the Gulf kept the peace, forced those "truces" or hudnas to be observed, between the naturally, and preternaturally, aggressive and violent Arab tribes of the area -=- hence the very name "Trucial States."
'Only in Algeria was there a long period of semi-colonial rule, and it was in that period, from 1830 to 1962, that universities and hospitals were built for the first time, the non-Muslims and non-Arabs treated decently (as the Jews, because of the loi Cremieux, passed in 1870, or the Berbers, who were seen by many of the French as superior in their civilazational level to the Arabs), and North Africa temporarily made safe for Christians to openly practice their religion, and civilization brought to Algeria through that mission civilisatrice, of both a linguistic and cultural kind -- and the effects of which can still be seen, in the pockets that remain of the French influence in what is reverting, alas, to Islamic type.
'The cliches -- which form that "same tired Arab and Muslim propaganda" that we are all so used to -- consisted
'not only of trying to persuade many that the establshing, through land purchases and through gigantic efforts at land reclamation, by Jews from the late 19th century on, of what had over the centuries become the desolate and ruined landscape of Israel or the Holy Land or "Palestine" (as it was known in Western Christendom, but not to the Arabs or Muslims, who started to appropriate the term only after the establishment of the state of Israel),
'and with a population that included the ingathered Jews from all the Muslim countries where nearly a million had lived and endured the existence that dhimmis always had to endure,
'whether economically prosperous, but physically insecure, in Baghdad,
' or as chattel slaves in Yemen.
'If Israel could, preposterously, be depicted as a "white, European, colonial state" and the local Arabs as "dark-skinnned" victims of those "colonists"
'(in many cases those supposed "European colonists" had never left the Middle East;
'some had never left Jerusalem, Safed, Hebron, for all three cities had a continuous Jewish presence --
'and of course the effort to rebuild the Jewish commonwealth in the most resource-less, most uninviting plot of land was hardly an example of "colonialism" and, furthermore,
'there was no "colonial" mother country to derivebenefit from whatever these "colonists" might have achieved).
'But such was and is the power of "tired Arab and Muslim propaganda" as to permit the greatest of the world's imperialists, linguistic and cultural as well as economic and political imperialists, the Arabs, to conduct their Jihad against Israel while couching the whole thing in the language of "anti-colonial struggle."
'And then that "same tired Arab and Muslim propaganda" did one more important thing after the 1967 defeat made clear that this was to be a Slow Jihad, requiring the diplomatic and economic and political isolation of Israel from its natural allies and admirers.
'That was to rename the local Arabs, the ones in Gaza and in the "West Bank" (as the Jordanians had renamed the area of Mandatory Palestine they seized in the 1948 war) now in territories won by Israel in that war, as the "Palestinian people."
'It had its effect. For most people, most of the time, know very little about anything.
'And if the area was once known, in the Western world, as "Palestine" and if there was now a group of people called the "Palestinians," well then -- that was it, wasn't it?
'The Jews must have taken their land, the land of those "Palestinians," unfairly.
' And all those poor "Palestinians" and their justifiably outraged supporters wanted was just a little bit, just a tiny bit, of what they should have had --
'and thus it was that tiny Israel, existing on 22% of the land area originally planned for Mandatory Palestine, created for the sole purpose of establishing the Jewish National Home
'(read the Preamble to the Mandate for Palestine, for god's sake -- do a little homework, find out something),
'it is now the Arabs who, preposterously, use the exact same figures, claiming that "even if we get Gaza and the West Bank, that is only 22% of 'Palestine'"
'And so the Lesser Jihad against Israel was disguised, for obvious reasons, as merely a matter of the "legitimate rights of the Palestiian people."
AND HERE COMES THE TRULY IMPORTANT POINT, THE NUB OF THE MATTER.
'**Neither Israel itself, nor many in the outside world, seem willing to comprehend that there is no solution, one-state or two-state or n-state, to the Jihad** {MY EMPHASIS - DDA}.
{And one may rewrite that sentence, thus: 'not Israel, India, not Thailand, not the Philippines, not Russia, nor any other non-Muslim state faced by perpetual agitation and insurrection from a Muslim minority within their borders and/ or attacks made by a neighbouring Muslim entity from across those borders, seem willing to comprehend that there is no solution to the Jihad' - dda}.
'There is only the matter of remaining overwhelmingly -- and perceptively -- more powerful, capable of wreaking great damage on those who would attack.
'No treaty with Infidel states, and Israel is such a state, can conceivably be permanently honored by a Muslim signatory.
'Pacta sunt servanda is a Western idea.
'**In the Muslim world, treaties are not to be obeyed, but if made with Infidels, to be violated as soon as the Muslim side feels itself strong enough to press its advantage.** {my emphasis - dda}
'The model for all time -- see Majid Khadduri. "War and Peace in the Law of Islam", and Mr Robert Spencer's 'The Truth About Muhammad', pages 137-139 -- is Muhammad's Treaty with the Meccans in 628 A.D, made insincerely and then treacherously broken….”.
Any 'agreement' that the local Arab Muslims make with Israel, **will be broken by them sooner or later, the moment they think they can go in for the kill**.
Under those circumstances, from a grimly practical point of view, Israel - if it wishes to survive at all as a free non-Muslim polity, on the traditional ancestral homeland of the Jews - must NOT relinquish to Muslims the military high ground: the Golan Heights, the hills of Judea and Samaria, and the Old City of Jerusalem.
Israel's long-term hope of *survival* against the Jihad - WHICH WILL NEVER STOP - depends on holding the military high ground; and they would, I am afraid, also be much better placed to survive, and remain free - rather than dead or reduced to the absolute misery of dhimmitude - if they evicted from Israel proper, and from Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria - *every last Muslim that currently resides there*.
Dar al Islam holds enormous swathes of land. The *Arabs* control enormous swathes of land. I don't see that there would be any kind of injustice involved in not permitting Arab Muslims - pretty much indistinguishable in language and 'culture' (honor murders and all) from the rest of the 'Arab' world - to reside within the tiny patch of dirt that represents traditional, ancestral Jewish land, reclaimed from out of the vast territories historically seized by Arab/ Muslim imperial conquest. The Arab Muslims would have a *hide* to complain: for they (and other kinds of Muslims) have rendered pretty much the entirety of dar al Islam practically Judenrein. No Jew is permitted to set foot in Saudi Arabia; Jews were driven out of Iraq, Jordan, Syria, Egypt; only tiny and imperilled remnants remain in Yemen, Algeria, Tunisia, Persia and Turkey and who knows how long it will be before they, too, are killed off or forced to flee? (And let it be stated that Jews within the Muslim world do NOT represent and never did represent the same kind of murderous, sullen, hostile and malevolent Fifth Column that every Muslim minority - *Including the Muslim minority within Israel* - represents to its host nation).
Geert Wilders, Friend of Israel, a Lover of Zion, speaking in November 2008 at the 'Facing Jihad' conference in Jerusalem, convened by MK Aryeh Eldad.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2008/12/geert-wilders-at-facing-jihad-conference-in-jerusalem-if-there-would-have-been-no-israel-islamic-imp.html
Excerpt:
'In the words of the brave Dr. Wafa Sultan: “It is a clash between civilization and backwardness, between the civilized and the primitive, between barbarity and rationality”.
'Indeed also here in Israel you are not fighting a territorial war, it's not about territory it's about ideology.
'The Islamic ideology does not seek cooperation or assimilation but aims for submission and dominance over non-Muslims. '
And Hugh Fitzgerald, on the convener of that gathering, Aryeh Eldad:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2008/09/fitzgerald-a-tribute-to-aryeh-eldad.html
I am aware of the content of the Hamas constitution that, consistent with fundamental Islamic belief, declares it impossible to bargain away any part of the holy motherland -Waqf (incl Israel's current territory). I am not talking about the Hamas position per se, Islamic religious principles, or Hugh Fitzgerald's reiteration of same, but real politik. The world is not yet a theocracy and the armies of Russia, Asia, Europe, the Americas,etc that would champion and enforce such a treaty are not of like mind as Hamas or Hesbullah, nor are the majority of the citizens of these places. If Israel were to get proactive in the peace process by giving up the land/settlements, it could turn world opinion around in its favor.
Israel could relinquish the vast majority of settlements conditioned upon a multi-national protective treaty and security force. In addition, if it would agree to bifurcated rule over Jerusalem as a separate city/state akin to the Vatican (as originally contemplated in the UN mandate I believe), pay reparations to Arabs with legitimate claims re abandoned property, Israel would be in a position to insist upon and obtain a very restrictive right of return. But they have to give up the land. It is Israel's own best interests to relinquish claims to almost all land acquired in 1967 and thereafter.
Give peace a chance. If the Islamic states were to reject such a plan they would be viewed as unreasonable and such a plan would be imposed upon them. If jihadists were to breach such an agreement, they would face overwhelming opposition.
You're talking nonsense.
You are demanding that Israel disarm itself, strip itself naked, and lie down to be raped - and then murdered.
*Any* and *every* concession, such as you say Israel must make - to people who name streets after the murderers of children; to people who *howl* for Jewish blood - will only whet, not sate, Muslim appetites, and feed Muslim triumphalism not only in the middle east but world-wide.
I do not think you have read, or understood, *any one* of the materials that I have supplied in this thread. You are wilfully refusing to grasp what is going on.
The Arab Muslim war against Israel, which war is tacitly or actively supported by the *rest* of the world-wide Ummah, is *no different* from the Muslim war against India, or against Russia, or against Thailand, or against the Philippines. It is about gaining turf...and then more turf...and then more turf...for the Ummah; turf within which the only place for a non-Muslim is either six feet under, or the living death of dhimmitude.
It is being conducted, and has always been conducted, by a mixture of violence and deceit.
I will remind you that Jacques Ellul, writing in 1983, went through the supposedly secular PLO Charter of 1968 clause by clause by clause, and came to the conclusion that it was "a perfect expression of the Jihad".
And I will remind you that in 1948 John Roy Carlson, in his book 'Cairo to Damascus', records encountering rabid and hysterically murderous Jew-hatred pervading Arab Muslim society, both in Egypt and elsewhere. He met an Arab Muslim who wanted Carlson to photograph him in the act of drinking blood from the slit throat of the Jew that he, the Muslim, was sure he was going to kill in battle. He was himself very nearly murdered by a random Arab Muslim, whom he met in the hills of Judea, who seized upon him (Carlson was Armenian, so may have looked a bit like a Jew), screeching 'Yahood' and was going to stab him; Carlson's companion, who was under the belief that Carlson was a Nazi-symphathising Islamophile, prevented the murder.
I will also remind you that Carlson also records that after the massacre of the Hadassah hospital convoy, Arab Muslims in the then Arab-occupied part of Jerusalem eagerly circulated their equivalent of dirty postcards: photographs of the nude, mutilated bodies of the murdered Jewish doctors, nurses and Haganah fighters.
*That* is the mindset - horribly widespread , deeply entrenched by decades, centuries, a millennium of brainwashing - of the people to whom you are asking that Israel give up territory, for 'peace'; for a very temporary 'peace' that would be merely a snare and a delusion.
Read Brigitte Gabriel's "Because They Hate". Read Wafa Sultan "A God Who Hates".
And get a bloody clue!
Darmanad
Do you happen to be aware that one of the long standing demands of the Arabs is the 'Right of Return'? In other words, all Arabs who left Israel voluntarily since 1948 would be free to return to Israel and become citizens? Is that something you support as well? For your so called goal to at least theoretically obliterate all pretexts for not liking Israel, this too would have to be supported.
However, everybody knows that this is a poison pill: if Israel were ever stupid enough to accept it, they'd be flooded w/ Muslims, and very soon have the same fate as Lebanon: Muslims would be the majority, Jews the minority. Once that happens, bye by Israel.
In the meantime, Muslim immigration to the West would continue unchecked, so it's not like it'd be any better for Jews to go to Europe or US. And as Doom&Gloom pointed out some time back, not all Israeli Jews are of Western Extraction: indeed, a lot of them came from Arab countries since 1948. What are they do do - be a minority under Hamas, or be a minority under new regimes like in Tunisia, Egypt, Libya, Yemen, et al?
In fact, a big contrast worth noting is that since 1948, just like a lot of Arabs (there was no such thing called Palestinians - either then, nor historically) left Israel, almost all Jews living in Arab countries went back to Israel to get away from their Dhimmi status. For the Arabs, who after 1967, got re-classified as Palestinians, the Arab league banned its members from making them full citizens, in the hope that one day, Israel would be re-conquered, and they could go back. Or else, you think the Gulf countries, which have always had a labor shortage, couldn't have just taken them in and absorbed them? They are all Arabs, and not Pakis, Bangladeshis, Indians, Filipinos. So even demographically, they wouldn't have made the native peoples minorities.
World conquest is the only rational explanation of this otherwise seemingly irrational behavior.
One more thing worth adding - 'world opinion' - until 1967 was largely sympathetic to Israel, since the conflict was phrased as b/w Jews & Arabs, and the latter was seen for what they were - owners of an empire stretching from Casablanca to Basra. It was only after 1967, when Arafat successfully started to define it as a conflict b/w Israelis & Palestinians - that it started changing, due to the slick campaign the Arabs managed to run. As a result, it now started to be perceived as the huge Israel - which then had occupied Sinai, in addition to Gaza, West Bank & Golan. And Israel letting go of the Sinai had no effect on the public perception that it almost doubled its area after 1967.
So as far as 'world opinion' goes (what on earth does that mean? Does the average guy on the street in Montevideo or Harare really care?) there is no way the Jews could win this, unless they somehow succeeded in showing it as a war b/w 1.3 billion Muslims vs 13 million Jews. And even then, given that 99% of those Muslims are non-White, it would still be an uphill task for Jews, just like it is an uphill task for Hindus, despite being another non-White people.
Best strategy - ignore 'world opinion'.
Wildjew, thank you for your answer to me. I wish you "hatzlacha raba" on your aliyah,whenever it may be, and I hope your aspirations are possible and your expectations will be met.
Regarding your understanding that the obligations Israel has to Holocaust survivors are being taken care of - sadly it's not the experience of Holocaust survivors I know personally. I fully appreciate your comments that you would not have accepted a penny from Germany and its allies had you been in the same position, however it should be realised that the day to day expenses of living, including medical care many survivors needed at the time, when in some cases they were the only ones to survive of their families and had nobody to give them financial help, were well nigh impossible, and still are for those still alive. What I do not agree with, and never have agreed with, is that even now, organisations seemingly representing holocaust survivors are still trying to get money out of Germany and its war time allies. These organisations have built an industry based on the Holocaust - and it is reprehensible (the World Jewish Congress is an example. Large sums of money have disappeared, which should have gone to those needing it - and the WJC threatens legal action whenever anybody tries to find out anything about it).
With regard to Jews being obsessive about Israel - I explained some of it in my last reply to you. These Jews are hyper sensitive even about constructive criticism, and use smearing tactics to shut anybody up who dares say Israel is not perfect. There are plenty of them in the Jewish community where I live. Again, I feel behaving like this puts each and every Jew under the spotlight of being unreasonable and uncompromising. You'll agree we have enough problems!
I am very vocal in my support for Israel's existence, as I said before. However I do not see why I should defend some of the mistakes Israel makes simply not to "rock the boat", either. Why, for example, should settlers stone and humiliate elderly Palestinians, and young children going to school?
Gravenimage I know Jews are heavily involved in the social life of the UK, America etc. However, they still isolate themselves and some of them adopt a dismissive attitude to non-Jews, in some cases even despise them. Thanks to multiculturalist/celebrate diversity idiocy, some Jews demand special treatment over and above others, and what is dangerous about it is, when Muslims see this happening, then they do the same, with threats of violence if their demands are not met. Before people were forced to celebrate diversity and other cultures, Jews, Christians, and others were cared for by their governments, their needs taken care of. What we have now is ordinary non-Jewish Brits looking on - they're the forgotten ones in all this - while Jews and Muslims are trying to outdo each other in their demands. Some I have spoken to believe that there isn't much difference between Jews and Muslims in this, and some Brits are becoming resentful. Not a pleasant thing to contemplate is it? When Jews insist on saying publically at every turn that Britain is an anti-Semitic country without giving a thought that we have two former Chief Rabbis as Peers of the Realm, countless Jewish MPs voted in by so-called "anti-Semitic" non-Jews - how do you think tolerant Brits, who have not an anti-Semitic thought in their heads, feel?
I respect your view that support for Israel is very much in the West's interests - but because of the behaviour of certain Israel focused organisations in the Diaspora, the level of patience and understanding of Israel's position by other countries is dwindling, in my opinion.
Of course it would be a disaster for Jews if Israel fell, however perhaps now should be the time for a bit of "tough love" - not seeing Israel through the rose tinted spectacles many Jews see her. We need to stop this "whatever Israel does is right" mentality - we would be doing Israel a favour, because after almost seventy years of her existence, I believe Israel needs to see the world as it really is, and compromise with it by acknowledging her own part in the continual misunderstandings.
Dumble, Infidel,
Hello? I am aware of the Islamic mindset and core tenets especially as it relates to the Waqf and infidels, "the worst among whom are the Jews." It is uncompromising, deceiful and barbaric. I am aware of the unreasonable Palestinian demand for the right of return of the many millions of Arab descendants from the much smaller number (estimated at 400K) that fled their homes in Israel which, if allowed to happen, would ipso facto destroy the Jewish character of a democratic Jewish state. Okay? Let's move on.
No one has suggested that Israel roll over and give up its defenses. Are you trying to win an argument by redefining my position? Stop spouting what we already know about the Islamic ideology and start thinking about how to achieve some sort of resolution of the problem. Israel must give up almost 100% of the land it acquired as a result of the 1967 war and it must compromise on Jerusalem in order to achieve a peace agreement, an agreement which would severely limit the right of return (perhaps to a couple hundred thousand of Arabs with the best claims). Any such agreement would be conditioned upon the deployment of a vast multi-national force on the ground not only to observe, but authorized to enforce the agreement by armed action.
In my opinion, if Israel were to relinquish its control over all, or almost all, the acquired territory and compromise on Jerusalem, it would be in a position to reasonably limit the terms of any right of return including temporary voting restrictions, coupled perhaps with reparations to those who lost their homes in the 1940s. If the Arabs refused such terms, world opinion would turn against them. That would make a tremendous difference in the dynamics of the process. If an agreement was reached and the Arabs breached it, there would be serious cosequences including armed occupation of Palestine and forced emigration to other Islamic states.
My point is that Israel has to give up land that was originally mandated by the UN for an Arab state in order to achieve a negotiated resolution of the war. If it were to cave in on the land/settlements issue (which it came close to doing right after Oslo before the second intifada) world opinion would be reversed and continued Arab hostility would be managed and,if necessary, overwhelmed by a combined Israeli and international force.
What do you think? And please do not reiterate taquiya or hudna or other Islamic ideological tactics that do nothing but keep in tact the fragile and unsustainable status quo.
You wrote: "In my opinion, if Israel were to relinquish its control over all, or almost all, the acquired territory and compromise on Jerusalem...." etc.
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No offense intended, you are a Chamberlain-like defeatist. You are the kind of guy who will capitulate in the face of violence and threats of violence, like England's disgraced prime minister, Neville Chamberlain. I would not want you advising me in time of war. God help any leader if you were advising him. You've got the white flag up there; waving. Winners hold firm. Losers surrender. Sorry darmanad, you haven't the spirit nor the will to fight. Nor can you persevere in the face of evil.
You make ad hominem attacks, but fail to set forth any reason or logic to support your position. That is dumb.
Offense intended.
Hmmm. "Winners hold firm. Losers surrender." Is that like "Stay the course " or "Peace with honor", or "My country, right or wrong?" or "Love it or leave it?" or any of the other mindless propagandist slogans mouthed by malevolent politicians and ignorant psuedo patriots - slogans that have caused the US to stay engaged in wars it had no right to start in the first place?
As far as Israel is concerned, why do you equate relinquishing control over territory acquired in a war with surrender? Are we not talking about land that was originally allocated to the Arabs by the very UN mandate that created the state of Israel? Please explain how this equates to surrender or defeatism. Does my proposal for an international armed force to enforce the peace agreement sound like I am afraid to use violent force? Such an armed force could impose serious sanctions including forced emigration or even the redrawing of tentative borders.
To be perfectly frank, wildjew, if you can't support your war cries with sound reasons, none of which you articulated, then the cause of a free and prosperous Israel would be better served if you were less vociferous. Stop vilifying rational views simply because they require Israel to reliquish land it acquired in war. Your war cries only serve to alienate reasonable people interested in achieving a just and lasting peace.
You wrote: "Are we not talking about land that was originally allocated to the Arabs by the very UN mandate that created the state of Israel?"
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NO. This land was not originally allocated to the Arabs by the League of Nations Mandate. Some 6 million square miles of land was allocated to the Arabs (22 Arab states) following the first world war, twice the geographical size of the United States.
Did you read my response above?
To: darmanad | February 18, 2011 11:47 AM | Reply
If I might, I think you are confusing two different terms; the 1922 "League of Nations Mandate" (given to the British) for what was to constitute the Jewish National Homeland in Palestine, and the 1947 "United Nations Partition Plan."
The League of Nations Mandate, which the United Nations inherited, did include all of what constitutes modern Israel and much more.
In November 1947, the United Nations voted to partition Israel ("Palestine") into separate Jewish and Arab territories, (similar to the 1937 Peel Commission Partition Plan).
The Zionist leadership in Israel reluctantly accepted the United Nations plan (just as the reluctantly accepted the Peel Partition Plan). The Arabs outright rejected the UN partition plan (as they did the Peel Partition Plan), opting for wars of annihilation instead. What we call the (1948-1949) 'green line' is (are) armistice lines that were agreed to by the warring parties (Israel, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt) but by no means were they accepted as borders; the Arabs hoped in subsequent wars to drive the Jews back and then entirely out of the land of Israel.
Are you suggesting that Israel should be held to an immoral United Nations partition plan that the Arabs rejected, opting instead on wars of annihilation?
Darmanad
Israel gained the Old City of Jerusalem (which includes the Temple Mount, the Mount of Olives, the sites of 58 ancient synagogues, and the original Jewish Quarter - which was ethnically/ religiously cleansed of Jews by the triumphant Arab Muslims, under a British commander, in the 1948 war; had Glubb Pasha not been there, most likely all the Jews would have been *killed* rather than allowed to leave in the clothes they stood up in), in DEFENSIVE WARFARE, as also Judea and Samaria.
The Jordanians attacked. All the Arab Muslims, howling for Jewish blood, attacked. They lost. Israel, in fierce fighting - fighting for their lives and the lives of their women and kids, who would have been raped and murdered in a frenzy of allahu-akbaring barbarism, if they lost - gained the territories from which the attacks had been launched. Since when does someone who fights a war of self-defence against a genocidal enemy, have to give back to that enemy all territories gained in the course of the campaign - territories from which the original attack, genocidal in intention, was launched?
Israel *cannot* hand over the military high ground to the Arab Muslims. That is a recipe for suicide.
As for a multinational force to keep the 'peace'...
ROFLMAO.
The Ummah stole eretz Israel in the 7th century. They held it, and slowly and steadily and inexorably ruined it, persecuting and oppressing and forcibly 'converting', or driving out, or killing, its indigenous Jews, Christians and Samaritans, for 1200 years. And then: they lost it; and the Jews, by a superhuman effort, miraculously managed to take and hold their ancestral homeland...causing fits of screaming fury among their former overlords, the Muslims who had subjected Jews to the grinding torment of dhimmitude for over a thousand years.
I do not support Israel's giving even one inch of ground to the Muslims, to the Arab supremacists. The Arab Muslims, and the rest of the Muslim world, still have *plenty* of their ill-gotten gains still clutched firmly in their merciless claws. They can do without eretz Israel. Let them choke with rage as they see Jews, whom they regard as their allah-ordained inferiors, intended to be Prey animals and slaves, walking free - and armed - in the sunlight. I don't care how 'oppressed' and 'humiliated' they feel because they can't rob, rape and murder Jews for fun and with total impunity anytime they feel like it, the way they used to do when they had dhimmi Jewish populations under their boot. I don't feel sorry for a slavemaster whose slaves have escaped and who is now whingeing and whining about the 'injustice' of it all, and plotting to recapture them and *punish* them. I have nothing but contempt for him.
@wildjew who wrote:
"Are you suggesting that Israel should be held to an immoral United Nations partition plan that the Arabs rejected, opting instead on wars of annihilation?"
Duh...YES. It is you who appears to be confused inasmuch as I did not refer to the partition plan contemplated, but never enacted, by the League of Nations. And what is with this terminology you use that the UN plan was "immoral?" You admit the Zionist leadership accepted the UN plan even though it reduced the land allocated as a Jewish state - land that had been occupied by principly Arabs for centuries before Jewish settlers began arriving. It's only immoral if you believe Israel was absolutly entitled to more land, but what are the facts and logic that support such a view?
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@dumbles who wrote:
"Since when does someone who fights a war of self-defence against a genocidal enemy, have to give back to that enemy all territories gained in the course of the campaign - territories from which the original attack, genocidal in intention, was launched?"
A fair question. Incidentally, Israel would not be giving back all land acquired after its declaration of nationhood as you indicate by reference to the 1948-49 green line annexation by which it did acquire additional land
.
Yes, in analyzing rightful claims to possession of land it matters greatly when history starts. The Jews have a claim to occupation of parts of this land going back over 1000 years which is why Eretz Israel was created in the mideast and not in Africa or other places contemplated by the early Zionists; however, during the last 1000 years they have been in diaspora and their rights to occupation can arguably (quite reasonably so) be considered to have lapsed in deference to the rights of the Arabs who have occupied the land continuously for the past 1000 years.
Israel agreed to the UN partition. Does the fact that the Arabs chose to make war preclude them from ever having a second chance? Does the history of the ancient Hebrews' presence in Judea and Samaria really constitute a sound basis for modern day Israel to maintain occupation and seek annexation of vast parts of the west bank territory? In my opinion it does not. Does that make me a weak-kneed defeatist recapitulating to Arab terroists? No, it does not. It makes me a realist who is willing to compromise, in the best sense of that word, in order to give peace a chance.
The Arabs have a valid claim to the territory Israel has occupied as a result of its success in the 1967 war and subsequent battles. No amount of hairsplitting argument over the principles of international law can erase that fact. Has Israel adopted a wise policy since 1967, a policy geared to promote peaceful coexistence? Hardly. One could argue that the hardliners in the Israeli government have adopted aggessive positions toward land annexation which have inexorably led to the rise of religious fanatcism by the inhabitants of the area. Hamas and Hesbollah can be viewed as products of Israeli intransigence drawing support from Arabs frustrated with the failure to resolve disputes over land they considered their homeland for centuries. Hawkish Isarael positions coupled with ineffective Palestinian/regional Arab leadership have allowed the fanatics to gain control/support of the normally quiescent masses. The death of the corrupt Mubarik regime, correctly perceived to be an unethical sellout of Palestinian interests, now forbodes greater hostility to Israel. Time will tell how the t turmoil in so many mideast states, sheikdoms, monarchies will play out, but I am not optimistic how new governments in the region will view Israel's position.
So, yes, give back the land conditioned upon absolute assurances that the state of Israel will have security. Sorry, but I fail to see why this should produce a puerile rebuttal such as "ROFLMAO." Is that combined with a brief history of Islamic warfare supposed to suffice for effective counterargument? This is the 21st century , not the 7th. Things change. The fact that Koran, itself, is immutable does not mean the world stands still. A well armed force supported by overwhelming international opinion (of non-Muslims at least) trumps Allah these days.
Lastly, I propose that Jerusalem be a jointly governed city state as it was contemplated in the original UN mandate so that key religious sites can be co- administered. That should satisfy most rational inhabitants. Of course it won't satisfy the pious ones. Why is it that the pious aka religious fanatics are always the ones adverse to peaceful coexistence?
No it is you who is confused. You wrote: "Are we not talking about land that was originally allocated to the Arabs by the very UN mandate that created the state of Israel?"
Where did you get this? Where was this land "originally allocated to the Arabs?" What Mandate are you talking about if not the League of Nations Mandate? Provide your sources. Please. Otherwise, what am I to conclude other than that you make things up out of whole cloth.
The Zionist leadership reluctantly accepted the 1947 United Nations partition plan. Jordan was supposed to be part of the Jewish National Homeland in Palestine, but the British illegally carved it out of the Mandate, giving it to the Arabs, in spite of the fact that Article 5 of the Mandate states: "The Mandatory shall be responsible for seeing that no Palestine territory shall be ceded or leased to, or in any way placed under the control of, the Government of any foreign Power."
Later the British and the UN wanted to even give more land - set aside for the Jews - to the Arabs and you support this? Why?
I believe accepting the partition plan was unwise since Israel belongs to the Jews and the Arabs already have 22 states including Jordan which was supposed to belong to the Jews. The Arabs have no claim to our land.
Since the Arabs sought to annihilate Israel (after they were offered the lion's share of our land) how can you defend them today as you do? The Arabs have no right to our land. Do you also believe Americans should give land back to the American Indians? Are you supporting the division of the United States, into American Indian and Mexican states, like you support the division of Israel? If not, why not?
The Arabs have no claim to our land. Why do you side with Israel's enemies? Why do you side with our enemies?
You wrote: "....however, during the last 1000 years they (the Jews) have been in diaspora and their rights to (to Israel) can arguably (quite reasonably so) be considered to have lapsed in deference to the rights of the Arabs who have occupied the land continuously for the past 1000 years....."
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Herein lies the problem. You are an atheist or maybe worse. I believe in the God of our fathers, and his everlasting covenant with the sons of Israel.
We have no basis for discussion.
Pslam 14:1 (a Psalm of David) The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.....”
The history of the development of the Zionist state and the dwindling land mass targeted for its borders is not in dispute except apparently by religious freaks and historical revisionists as you appear to be. The bottom line is that the UN - not the Peel Commission, not Balfour, not the League of Nations, not the Brits, or anyone else - authorized the creation of the Jewish state. It is to the UN's sanction and the UN alone to which Israel owes its very existence. It was that same UN mandate that provided for the creation of a separate Arab state. That Arab state included the west bank. Period. Nothing you say changes this immutable fact.
Yes, therein lies the problem. You appear to be a religious fanatic and the name "wildjew" is probably an accurate description of your thought processes.
Take you faith based fairy tales about a god and shove them up your holier than thou ass. This site is about politics, not faith based arguments about who "god" likes more. Your Judeo-Christian god appears to be as supremacist as the Islamic one. As I said it is always the pious that are adverse to peace. Wild, screaming fools like you do the state of Israel a big disservice.
As (you) said, "it is always the pious that are adverse to peace."
What do you know about peace?
A couple of points are in order I think.
1) You wrote, "This site is about politics, not faith based arguments...."
A few weeks back, we had a fairly extensive "faith-based" discussion.
Here: http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/10/in-2004-emmanuel-iii-delly.html
And here: http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/11/exclusive-archbishop-cyril-bustros-clarifies-his-remarks-at-the-vatican-synod.html
2) For me, the United Nations / "international law" does not determine Israel's right to exist. It does not determine whether or not Israel is legitimate or if Israel is a nation-state. Israel does not derive her legitimacy from the United Nations. You can call it "faith based fairy tales" if you wish. I call faith in the United Nations folly. Those who place their faith in the United Nations, place their faith in futility; in emptiness.
Notwithstanding, I accept the declaration of the "fifty-one member countries—the entire League of Nations— (which) unanimously declared on July 24, 1922:
"Whereas recognition has been given to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine (later Israel) and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country."
According to my sources, "The UN has no power to draw new agreements which run contrary to existing valid International Agreements or treaties which it had inherited from its predecessor, the League of Nations."
My sources could be erroneous. Do you have information that refutes my source(s)?
I oppose Israel being forced to cede ground to the Ummah for any reason whatsoever - especially not land that carries far more emotional, historical and political significance for Jews, than for the Ummah, and that *also* comprises the military high ground that must be held if Israel is to survive as a free non-Muslim country assailed by the neverending Jihad - for precisely the same reasons as I would oppose anyone's trying to force India to hand over Kashmir, or any other Muslim-infested district of India, to the Ummah; and it is for the same reasons, also, that sane and decent people, had they realized what was going on, would have opposed forcing the Serbs to surrender Kosovo to the Ummah.
And to be frank, I would argue that if Thailand and the Philippines desire to survive longterm they will have to create a clear demarcation between themselves and the Ummah.
That means either letting the Muslims have Mindanao and Southern Thailand but fortifying the new borders against any further encroachments - and at the same time turfing out of the *rest* of the country ALL Muslims currently there resident, so as not to have, years or decades down the track, *another* Fifth-Columnist Muslim insurrection-for-the-seizure-of-turf ; or, if dar al Harb intends to keep the turf it currently controls, then the Philippines and Thailand have to evict ALL Muslims not only from their kafir-majority provinces, but *also* from those areas they [the non-Muslim polity] currently rule that are presently Muslim-majority. Let the Ummah lose some ground; why should death cultists be permitted to always get what they want?
I am thinking in terms of the big picture. I don't want the non-Muslim world to lose ground; I want the *Ummah*, the murderous Mohammedan Mob, to lose ground, wherever possible.
If Darmanad thinks that eretz Israel was somehow entirely Judenrein from AD 70 or AD 135 until the 19th century, and that therefore since there were no Jews in the house, so to speak, and the Arabs were squatting there 'continuously, the Arab 'squatting' rights cancel those of Jews, darmanad is grossly in error.
**Jews never ceased to live in eretz Israel, throughout the entire period first of Roman and Byzantine rule, and then during the entire Muslim imperium, despite the misery, degradation and periodic mass killings inflicted upon them by the Muslim colonists and occupiers.** What is more, the 'pull' to live in eretz Israel was so strong that throughout the entire period - despite the abusive treatment they suffered from the Muslims - there was always a steady trickle of Jews from all parts of the diaspora, coming back to the Land and merging with the remnant Jewish communities already present. The Jewish communities of Hebron and Safed are *ancient*.
For more on this topic, see James Parkes, "Whose Land?" which shows clearly that there never was a time, during the Muslim imperium, when there were no Jews living in eretz Israel. **Gaza** had a Jewish community; the 'Sabbath hymn' was composed there, during the Middle Ages.
And the reality is that most of the 'Arabs' who currently live in Israel *can't* trace their families in the land back beyond two or three generations; their grandparents illegally swarmed into the area during the time of the British Mandate, from places like Syria, Saudi Arabia, 'Jordan' and Egypt, or from further afield, such as parts of North Africa. Go back a few more generations, and you find groups of people with Turkish, Bosnian and Bulgarian ethnicity - Turkish Muslims, and Muslims of Slavic convert ancestry, who were resettled in the region by the Ottomans, when countries like Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria threw off the Muslim yoke and drove out most of the Muslims (whether Turks, or local converts to Islam). How 'Arab' is someone whose genetics are actually Slavic, descended from someone forcibly converted to Islam in the Balkan peninsula? What 'deep association' can such a person claim to have?
There is something else, too, that needs to be said. Islam recognises one thing and one thing only: the right of Muslims to grab anything they want from anybody else, by force or by fraud, and to hold it in perpetuity uncontested; and if anyone resists or prevents this process of Muslims taking other people's things, they howl with rage.
Islam, in other words, sees CONQUEST as conferring legitimare permanent possession - **so long as it is Muslims doing the conquering**.
But if someone else CONQUERS MUSLIMS, then cue the Muslims wailing and howling and crying about their ancestral rights and ancient homelands and all the rest of it; that is, invoking for their own benefit concepts which, as regards their own treatment of all the other peoples of the earth, and especially the indigenous peoples of lands conquered by Muslims, they do not recognise and which they in fact treat with absolute contempt.
For the benefit of those new to this site and to this subject.
First, perhaps *the* classic article on the local Arabs (mostly Muslim) in and around Israel.
Martha Gellhorn's "The Arabs of Palestine", from Atlantic Monthly, 1961.
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1969/12/the-arabs-of-palestine/4203/
Doom and Gloom, you've already seen this; but I think new posters and lurkers need to see it.
I am going to quote two lengthy passages.
'Confronting one Arab Muslim girl, [inside Israel, living in a prosperous village] Gellhorn has had enough (especially since she had encountered lots of Arabs praising Hitler, and expressing out and out viciousness, nonsense and lies of all kinds - 'madhattery', as she dubbed it).
‘She [the Arab Muslim girl] opened her closed face to say, "Yes, I see. But it is our country."
‘It was too hot, and too futile.
‘I was tired of the convention, which apparently requires non-Arabs [non-Muslims – dda] to treat Arabs [Muslims? – dda] as if they were neurotic children, subject either to tantrums or to internal bleeding from spiritual wounds.
'This girl did not strike me as a pathetic weakling.
"Only by right of conquest," I said. "In the seventh century.
"The Jews got here first, about two thousand years ahead of you. You haven't lived as masters in your own house for a long time.
"Aside from the Crusaders, the Ottoman Turks bossed you for a steady four hundred years, before the British took over.
"Now the Jews have won back their land by right of conquest. Turn and turn about," I said, feeling as beastly minded as an Arab myself. "Fair's fair."…
More:
‘The emotional position of the Israeli Arabs is tormenting (and is held in that torment by the Arab radio stations), though they are materially secure, protected by equal justice under law, and by an almost exaggerated respect for their feelings.
‘If the Arab nations made peace with Israel, it is possible that all Israeli Arabs would relax, be happy, and wholehearted supporters of Israel. If not, not.
‘No one, after listening to Israeli Arabs, could believe that Palestinian refugees would be either contented or loyal citizens of Israel
‘Arabs {she could more correctly have said, ‘Muslims’ – dda} gorge on hate, they roll in it, they breathe it. Jews top the hate list, but any foreigners are hateful enough. Arabs also hate each other, separately and en masse. Their politicians change the direction of their hate as they would change their shirts. Their press is vulgarly base with hate-filled cartoons; their reporting describes whatever hate is now uppermost and convenient. Their radio is a long scream of hate, a call to hate. They teach their children hate in school. They must love the taste of hate; it is their daily bread. And what good has it done them?
'THERE is no future in spending UN money to breed hate {But that is exactly what happned and is still happening, under UNRWA, 1960s-2000+ - dda}.
' There is no future in nagging or bullying Israel to commit suicide by the admission of a fatal locust swarm of enemies.
'There is no future in Nasser's solution, the Holy War [Jihad – dda.] against Israel; and we had better make this very clear, very quickly.
'Long bleak memories will recall the Sudetendeutsch and Czechoslovakia. In a new setting, Palestinian refugees assume the role of the Sudetendeutsch. Israel becomes Czechoslovakia.
'Propaganda prepares the war for liberation of "our brothers."
'Victory over a minor near enemy is planned as the essential first step on a long triumphant road of conquest.
'A thousand-year Muslim Reich, the African continent ruled by Egypt [or, today, by Persia? – dda] may be a mad dream, but we have experience of mad dreams and mad dreamers.
'We cannot be too careful. The echo of Hitler's voice is heard again in the land, now speaking Arabic [and, today, it speaks Farsi as well - dda.].
…
‘The Palestinian refugees are unfortunate victims of a brief moment in history.
‘It is forgotten that Jews are also victims in the same manner, of the same moment.
' The Arab-Israel war and its continuous aftermath produced a two-way flight of peoples.
'Nearly half a million Jews, leaving behind everything they owned, escaped from the Arab countries where they lived to start life again as refugees in Israel.
'Within one generation, if civilization lasts, Palestinian refugees will merge into the Arab nations, because the young will insist on real lives instead of endless waiting.
' If we can keep the peace, however troubled, the children of Palestinian refugees will make themselves at home among their own kind, in their ancestral lands.
'**For the Jews there is no other ancestral land than Israel.’** {my emphasis - dda}.
And since I may as well supply, in this thread, a sort of compendium of sources that challenge the 'Palestinian narrative' which has been swallowed unquestioningly by so many people in the West and beyond it in the past fifty years, I will add the remarks upon Islam made by a clear-eyed Jew in Israel in 1955.
Remarks quoted by Edward Said, to prove 'racism' or suchlike, but which will strike any jihadwatcher as nothing more than the plain unvarnished truth.
Here is the original thread, and the passage from Carlebach/ Karlebakh, introduced by some acerbic remarks from Hugh Fitzgerald:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2006/05/fitzgerald-edward-said-hoist-by-his-own-petard.html
'Dr. A. Carlebach, whose analysis published in Ma'ariv (Oct. 7, 1955) would have been lost to history, one suspects, but for the fact that it is reprinted, amusingly and quite uncomprehendingly, in Edward Said's preposterous "The Question of Palestine."
'Fortunately for us, Said often provides quotes from various European and Zionist sources that are so deadly, so convincing, particularly in the light of all we have learned about Islam over the past few years, that as a work of propaganda it no longer serves its purpose.
'Here is what Said quoted from Carlebach, and what Said obviously thought was self-evidently absurd, but which we read now with quite a different frame of mind:
"These Arab Islamic countries do not suffer from poverty, or disease, or illiteracy, or exploitation; they only suffer from the worst of all plagues: Islam.
"Wherever Islamic psychology rules, there is the inevitable rule of despotism and criminal aggression.
"The danger lies in Islamic psychology, which cannot integrate itself into the world of efficiency and progress, that lives in a world of illusion, perturbed by attacks of inferiority complexes and megalomania, lost in dreams of the holy sword.
"The danger stems from the totalitarian conception of the world,
"the passion for murder deeply rooted in their blood, from the lack of logic, the easily inflamed brains, the boasting,
" and above all: the blasphemous disregard for all that is sacred to the civilized world...
{as amply demonstrated by the hysterical Arab Muslim adulation of the child-murderer Samir Kuntar, and by the murder, by Arab Muslims, of heavily-pregnant Tali Hatuel and her four little daughters, and by the tearing limb-from-limb of two unarmed Jewish reservists in Ramallah, and by the gunning down of unarmed Torah students on top of their holy books in the Mercaz Harav yeshiva, and - long before the foundation of Israel - by the wholesale rape and murder of helpless dhimmi Jews in Safed and Hebron in the 19th century and in the early 20 th century, including gang raping and mutilation of underage girls - dda}
"their reactions -- to anything -- have nothing to do with good sense.
"They are all emotion, unbalanced, instantaneous, senseless. It is always the lunatic that speaks from their throat. You can talk 'business' with everyone, and even with the devil. But not with Allah...
"This is what every grain in this country shouts.
"There were many great cultures here, and invaders of all kinds. All of them -- even the Crusaders -- left signs of culture and blossoming. But on the path of Islam, even the trees have died.
"We pile sin upon crime when we distort the picture and reduce the discussion to a conflict of border between Israel and her neighbors.
"First of all, it is not the truth.
"The heart of the conflict is not the question of the borders; it is the question of Muslim psychology.....
:Moreover, to present the problem as a conflict between two similar parts is to provide the Arabs with the weapon of a claim that is not theirs.
"If the discussion with them is truly a political one, then it can be seen from both sides.
"Then we *appear* {note; 'appear'; for the reality is in fact one of decolonisation, not of colonisation; of an indigenous people resisting an empire that had oppressed them for centuries - dda} as those who came to a country that was entirely Arab {it was, in fact, not so - dda}, and we conquered and implanted ourselves as an alien body among them, and we loaded them with refugees and constitute a military danger for them, etc. etc. ...one can justify this or that side--and such a presentation, sophisticated and political, of the problem is understandable for European minds--at our expense.
"The Arabs raise claims that {seem to -dda} make sense to the Western understanding of simple legal dispute.
"But in reality, who knows better than us that such is not the source of their hostile stand?
"**All those political and social concepts are never theirs** {my emphasis - dda}
"**Occupation by force of arms, in their own eyes, in the eyes of Islam, is not at all associated with injustice** {my emphasis - dda}.
"To the contrary, it constitutes a certificate and demonstration of authentic ownership.
" The sorrow for the refugees, for the expropriated brothers, has no room in their thinking.
"Allah expelled, Allah will care.
"Never has a Muslim politician been moved by such things (unless, indeed, the catastrophe endangered his personal status).
"**If there were no refugees and no conquest, they would oppose us just the same."** {my emphasis - dda}.
Now, as for those poor Palestinian refugees, here are the observations of John Roy Carlson, from 'Cairo to Damascus', 1951 (he who interviewed Hassan al Banna in person, and includes a nice long and informative chapter on the Muslim Brotherhood).
CARLSON’S ACCOUNT OF WHY MANY ARAB MUSLIMS (AND ARABISED CHRISTIANS) FLED DURING THE WAR OF INDEPENDENCE, 1948.)
A lengthy footnote from chapter 12 'with the Arabs in Jerusalem' .
Carlson was personally in the thick of things during the 1948 war; mostly undercover on the Arab Muslim side, posing as a pro-Muslim Nazi sympathiser.
From the text proper, p.p 234-235 of the 1951 edition:
'Some fifty thousand Arabs had fled Jaffa'.
CARLSON'S NOTE:
"This flight-psychosis, which prevailed among the Arabs and ultimately resulted in the frantic exodus of many Moslems and Christians, is a difficult phenomenon to explain.
"It was a mass hysteria induced by poor morale *and by fear of revenge and retributiion for the Arab massacres and lootings from 1920 on* {my emphasis added - dda}.
"Arab leaders - particularly in the Mufti's Higher Committee - urged residents to clear the fighting areas, promising them that Palestine would be cleared of Jews within thirty days after the Mandate ended.
"After the Jews had been pushed into the sea, Arab leaders said, Palestinians could return to their homes and at the same time share in Jewish booty.
"*They implied that those who refused to leave were pro-Zionist; such people were threatened with retribution.* {my emphasis added - dda}
"In contrast, I [Carlson] know of instances where the Jews begged the Arabs, particularly the Christian elements, to remain, guaranteeing their safety and full respect for property.
"These Christians, however, joined the fleeing Moslems, *fearing the promised retribution following the promised Arab victory* {my emphasis added - dda}.
"As an instance, the Armenians, who had always got along well with Arab and Jew alike, joined the panicky Moslems, *horror-stricken by the memory of the Turkish massacres* {my emphasis added - dda}.
"Wealthy merchants, physicians, bankers, politicians and other leaders were the first to leave.
"Later came the poorer elements until, by the time the Mandate expired, those remaining were largely only the ill and the aged, *the looters*, and the innocents.
"**The exodus figure of 750 000 or more Arabs is sheer propaganda, a fictional number that cannot be supported by the facts** {nota bene - dda}.
"The populace in the country from Jerusalem north to Jericho was not disturbed by the fighting, nor were the Arabs and Christians resident in the congested areas within the quadrangle formed by Ramallah, Tulkarm, Jenin, and Nablus - Palestinian territory now annexed by Jordan.
"It must also be pointed out that many of the Moslem so-called refugees were homeless, nomadic wanderers in the first place.
"*Poor, nonrefugee Arabs, such as those in Gaza {NOTA BENE - dda}, have claimed refugee status in order to qualify for American aid* {my emphasis added - dda}."
END QUOTE FROM CARLSON
Another uncomfortable dose of truth from the forgotten past.
In Adolf Boehm's history of the Zionist movement, he depicts in detail the way the Young Turkish leader and Army Commander, Ahmet Cemal (Djemal),
**reduced the Jewish population of Ottoman Palestine by deportation and massacres, wiping out entire families of Jewish nationalist leaders** [my emphasis - dda}
Boehm concludes: "If Palestine had not been freed by the English at the end of 1917, the Jewish Yishuv (settlement) would have been exterminated by Djemal.
"By the war's end, it was reduced to 55,000 souls, **that is, half of the pre-war population.** {my emphasis - dda}."
[Boehm, Adolf: The Zionist Movement (Die zionististsche Bewegung). Vol. 1: The Zionist Movement until the end of the World War. 2nd, enlarged ed. Tel Aviv: Hozaah Ivrith Co. Ltd., 1935, page 643 ff. Published in German.]
And some observations from an Australian soldier, a Lighthorseman who was part of the great campaign from Egypt up through 'Palestine' in 1917.
'The Desert Column', Chapter 50, Page 183:
"I think this is the 17th (December, 1917). Yesterday we rode by numbers of vividly pretty little red-roofed towns. The inhabitants are very fair skinned, mostly Jews. They are by far the most cleanly people we have yet met. They are very hospitable although they do charge us a hefty/ p. 184 / price for brown bread, honey and tobacco.
'Lots of them have had a hard time from the Turks [for which see Boehm, as cited above].
'They seem to live between two devils, the Turk and the Arab. [both Muslim, of course - dda]
'Apparently the Turk prevents the Arab {i.e. the Arab MUSLIM - dda} from mssacring them outright, because the Jews are a very handy people to squeeze taxes from."
[And thus this Australian journalist. bushman and soldier sums up, in three simple sentences, centuries of Jewish dhimmitude under the Muslim scimitar in the land of Israel..].
The diary is not reproduced in full, and at this point there is a gap: I would very much like to see the original diaries, which are at the War Memorial in Canberra. Some 20 000 words were cut in passing from diaries to book – I think the diary may have had more to say here, about the Jewish towns and their situation, caught between Arab and Turkish Muslims].
'Distantly we see the city roofs of ‘Jaffa the beautiful’ – very pretty in its hills and trees and orchards, even at this distance…
'Some of our boys got wine yesterday from the [non-Muslim, obviously!] inhabitants of the little town near by, and things are a bit lively. I think the town is Richon.
'Yesterday we rode through the place along a narrow road, the inhabitants in such queer garments lining the roads and shady lanes to stare at these brown sleeveless soldiers. We must have seemed queer fighting men to them for they stared as if they had expected to see supermen, not rough-clad Australians.
'I don’t think they could realize that we actually were the men who had driven back their taskmaster of centuries [the Turk].
' They seem also to be on the verge of something they cannot believe, cannot understand; they tremble when they whisper of Jerusalem.
'It appears there is some prophecy, centuries old, that one day Jerusalem will fall and will be taken from the Turk or from whatever infidel [here, Idriess seems to mean, non-Jew] holds it.”
[Remember: Idriess wrote this in 1917, and published it in 1932].
“We passed a quaint little building with ‘Hotel’ prominently on a signboard, and other signs in Greek. A fair Hebe was leaning over the veranda with bared arms and a winning smile [so: not a Muslim]. She had won, too, for the place was full of officers of the forces taking occupation, others seemed to be arriving per horse and lorry every minute.
“These [Jewish; and Christian?] towns have plenty of flocks, plenty of wine, plenty of bread; the people are clean and civilized. We are coming into orchard towns now. The green oranges have given the whole regiment the tummy-ache. Reminds me of the melons of the Bardawil.
“…A beautiful period of our ride was after crossing the Wadi Hanein.
'We rode through tall mimosa hedges, in perfumed bloom, into the colony of Nachalat (the heritage of Reuben). Crowds of white men, women and children flocked the scented roads shouting: “Shallome! Shallome! Shallome!”
{No wonder; for the unexpectedly swift advance of the Australians and the English, driving back the Turkish Muslims and putting a bit of fear into the Arab Muslims, had quite possibly, averted a Muslim mass murder of the Jews in ‘Palestine’ – as Boehm tells us, some 55 000 of the population - numbering some 110 000 in 1914 - had already been either driven out, or killed}.