Responding to a friendly fire attack

There is a dispiriting number of self-described counter-jihad activists who spend more time sniping at other counter-jihadists instead of actually doing something constructive to fight the jihad. There are those who know all about how it can all be done better and more effectively, but never quite manage to get off their couch and prove it. There are those who sling around reckless and false charges against others, and those who style themselves as junior Machiavellis, maneuvering publicly and privately, in ways more or less transparent, to muscle out those they apparently regard as competition.

I find all this distasteful and wrongheaded, and do not participate, but am for whatever reason often the recipient of it. And so it is with Aymenn Jawad al-Tamimi, who has in the past contributed some Spanish translations of portions of my Qur'an commentary and other material to Jihad Watch. But yesterday in the American Thinker, he published a curious attack that requires a response. Apparently his original article has since been revised to take out his most egregious false charge, and relevant comments have been removed; I wrote this before all that: "Robert Spencer Responds to Aymenn Jawad," at the Thinker today:

It is unfortunate that The American Thinker published an incredibly irresponsible article on Saturday: "Anti-Jihadism and Unholy Alliances," by Aymenn Jawad Al-Tamimi. In it, Aymenn Jawad, a man with whom I have had friendly professional interaction in the past, criticizes my website Jihad Watch for unmoderated comments, not written by me, left there several years ago in support of the neofascist British National Party (BNP). Aymenn also takes issue with me for apparently not denouncing anti-Semitic statements by the Serbian anti-jihad writer Srdja Trifkovic. Aymenn Jawad at the same time bemoans rifts in the counter-jihad movement; but, it is sad to say, his false charges and unwarranted attacks on me and my work only serve to further such rifts.

Aymenn cites a writer named Mary Jackson, who took Jihad Watch to task several years ago for comments left there in favor of the BNP. It is worth emphasizing, however, that Mary Jackson's complaints about BNP supporters in the Jihad Watch comments are several years old. I am not aware of any such people being around at Jihad Watch now, but even if they are, comments at Jihad Watch are unmoderated. We favor open discussion and debate. There are quite frequently people in the Jihad Watch comments who express support for Islamic jihad, as well as for Marxism and a host of other belief-systems and philosophies to which I do not adhere. At the leftist dhimmi UK blog Harry's Place, where Aymenn Jawad also writes, there are occasionally commenters who express similar sentiments. Yet he is denouncing only Jihad Watch, not Harry's Place. Now, why is that?

As for Srdja Trifkovic, I am aware of his pro-Israel activity, as well as his paradoxically antisemitic statements to which Aymenn Jawad referred in his article. It was, in fact, Aymenn himself who alerted me to the latter, leading me to add an update to the post at Jihad Watch about Trifkovic's being barred from Canada. In that update, I made it clear that I was no friend or supporter of Trifkovic, and repudiated his antisemitic statements. I posted that update on March 1, and sent Aymenn Jawad an email on that day notifying him that the update was there. See for yourself.

Then four days after this update appeared, Aymenn Jawad published this article at the American Thinker, accusing me of not repudiating Trifkovic's remarks, and including a link to the very place where I did exactly what he accuses me of not doing.

Initially it appeared to me that there were two possibilities, neither one of which reflected well upon Aymenn Jawad:

1. Aymenn Jawad is very careless, in not even bothering to check his email or the site to which he linked in order to verify that what he was saying was true. Or,

2. Aymenn Jawad is lying and attempting to discredit me and Jihad Watch, for reasons unknown to me.

After I posted those two possibilities in the comments field of his article, however, Aymenn wrote me to tell me that he had indeed contacted a Larrey Anderson at the Thinker, notifying him that I had actually repudiated Trifkovic's anti-Semitic remarks and asking him to hold up the article. This email was evidently lost or ignored, as Aymenn's article appeared on March 5 without any acknowledgment of that repudiation.

This may have been an innocent mistake or misunderstanding, but then Aymenn Jawad himself wrote in the comments field of his original article that I had neglected in my own earlier comment to "mention that I forwarded the update via Larrey Anderson to the editors whilst the piece was being edited, asking for the necessary alterations to be made. Unfortunately, however, the submission wasn't altered in light of the new information." Yet Aymenn knew when he wrote this that I didn't know this until after writing that comment.

I ask the reader's patience in retailing all this tedious back-and-forth, but I do hope that the disingenuousness of Aymenn Jawad will at this point be clear: he was now upbraiding me for not noting in my comment something that I had no way of knowing when I wrote the comment in question.

It is extremely disappointing and counterproductive that rifts arise between counterjihadists; one wonders at the motives and priorities of someone like Aymenn Jawad, however: when the world is aflame with jihad violence and Islamic supremacism, he thinks it a prudent allocation of his time to direct spurious and baseless criticism against a fellow freedom fighter, instead of against the common enemy of freedom.

Is this an attempt to gain readers, Aymenn? I expected better of you.

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Haters gonna hate.

Well done, Fearless Leader. Some folks believe it's simply a waste of time to confront one's on-line detractors. I believe it depends on the particulars; who they are and what they've said. Your response here was absolutely appropriate.

Some go after Robert in an attempt to elevate their own standing. Nobodies wishing to become somebodies by debating Robert. Robert shouldn't do them any favors, especially if those people are unwilling to step out from behind their online pseudonyms.

Hmmmmm, shades of Charles?

Time for Aymenn to respond directly here at JW to clear up this matter. Silence by him will be damning on his take of things.

I find this sort of thing both distasteful and enormously counter-productive myself.

Sure, I find the approaches of some anti-Jihadists more effective or simply more congenial than others—but I have always subscribed to the "big tent" approach. Fighting Jihad is such a vast undertaking that it can have different aspects.

Moreover, there are many people who may have some blindspots or make minor errors who should still be considered strong allies.

Certainly, there are some anti-Jihadists who are all too happy to attack others for their failings–real or imagined, and all too many who tend to be "ideological purists" of one sort or another. Also, it can get lonely out here in "the foxholes", and some people respond to that by sniping at each other.

It doesn't help, either, that anti-Jihadists are regularly accused by Jihadists, by Muslim apologists, by the "politically correct" and by the terminally clueless, of being "reactionary" or "racist" or "Islamophiobic"-all of which is unrelenting and by no means easy to take.

Over all, though, considering the incredible range and backgrounds of anti-Jihadists, and their differences of politics, religion, and general world-view, I am often heartened by *how well* those fighting Jihad tend to get along.

I believe it was Roland Shirk who, in a recent piece here, fondly recalled the WWII-era Hollywood films which featured platoons made up of every variety of central-casting American—the upper-class East coast college boy, the wiseacre New Yorker, the callow Southern farm boy, the calm and steady mid-Westerner-and how they all were able to forge themselves into a cohesive fighting unit against the Axis with the help of a tough-as-nails sarge with a heart of gold.

Not a bad model, when all is said and done.

I m always especially saddened when I see the very reasonable and principled Robert Spencer on the receiving end of such attacks.

I doubt it will happen, but I hope we eventually see an end to "friendly fire"—It's not as though, after all, anti-Jihadists didn't have their hands full with fighting Jihad.

Regardless of who creates these rifts, our number one priority needs to be unity in countering Islam. It's okay to disagree with one another, and it's even okay to argue, but I do feel we have a self-destructive tendency to ostracize and alienate anyone who even remotely disagrees. Whether it's readers pouncing on each other in the comments sections or authors trashing misguided but valuable allies, this, I feel, is a serious problem.

Even this response by Mr. Spencer is somewhat worrying, because I can't imagine it being met by anything other than animosity and distance, despite the fact that Spencer and Jawad are apparently on the same team.

As a final note, I think the "if you don't like something, get out" rhetoric needs to stop; it's utterly lethal to our cause. If a legitimate, fundamental difference of opinion arises in the counter-jihad movement, perhaps that's a valid reason for people to part ways, but I don't think there's sense in creating conflict when there really isn't any.

Wellington, you are right. It is time for me to respond at JW- and in all fairness this comment should be allowed to stand. Robert Spencer is being dishonest here:-

Spencer writes:

'Apparently his original article has since been revised to take out his most egregious false charge, and relevant comments have been removed'

Spencer has clear proof via e-mails from Thomas Lifson, myself et al. that I asked for my original submission to be changed whilst it was under review, in light of the update Spencer made to his blog post regarding Trifkovic's antisemitism. However, it was just solely an accident on the part of the editors that it appeared as it was originally submitted, implying that Spencer remained unaware of Trifkovic's anti-Jewish views until my article appeared. Spencer's quoted remarks above insinuate that I only asked for the article to be changed after it appeared and Spencer complained to the American Thinker.

Spencer appears to think I believe he endorsed Trifkovic's antisemitism when I first wrote the article. However, it is obvious from what my article says that this is not the case:-

'Unfortunately, however, such adulation fails to take into account many of Trifkovic's despicable views. Most notably, his fans OFTEN REMAIN UNAWARE of his anti-Semitic views.'

Note the emphasis on 'often remain unaware'. It does not equate to endorsement. And, in fact, Spencer himself admits that he was unaware of these views until I alerted him about them. Does this not vindicate my point that we need to do research on those whom we think of endorsing before actually lending support?


The BNP: Spencer is under the strange impression that I was insinuating that he secretly endorses the BNP because a number of commentators on these threads at Jihad Watch have expressed support and admiration for the BNP. Here's what I actually wrote:-

'Robert Spencer himself, however, has been CLEAR about his stance on the BNP, affirming that the argument for supporting the BNP on the grounds of its anti-Islamist position IS NO SOUNDER "than the claim that we must support Hizballah because it builds schools and runs charities when not lobbing rockets at Israeli civilians."'

It is evident, therefore, that my remarks were addressed to those commentators at JW who have expressed support in the comment threads, not to Spencer. If anything, I am actually exhorting them to follow Spencer's advice on this issue.

This leads on to the general point behind the article. It was not intended as an attack on Spencer or Jihad Watch: I am only asking that we all think more carefully about choosing allies. Some of you may disagree with that, and I welcome hearing from you. But please do not smear me as part of some 'leftist dhimmi' conspiracy against you.

Mr. Al-Tamimi, I'll leave the content of your reply to others who are more knowledgeable about this specific issue, but I'm glad that you responded here.

Cheers, gravenimage. It's only fair that both sides be given a hearing on this matter. I do hope Spencer will understand that I am not collaborating with anyone to portray him in a negative light, nor did I write the article in question just to get more readers. Reconciliation needs to be our goal here.

KrazyKafir writes:-

'Hmmmmm, shades of Charles?'

For the record, I am not associated with or a supporter of Charles Johnson. Though I agree with him on anthropogenic global warming and on the need to shun the likes of Vlaams Belang (VB), I have always believed, and still do believe, that his behaviour in the blog war was irrational.

Aymenn - You say "many of Trifkovic's despicable views" of which his fans are unaware, such as "his antiSemitic views" (plural). I'm aware of Trifkovic contributing a very short article to the alternativeright website, wherein he says there have been some intellectual movements very harmful to Western society, such as Marxism, Trotskyist Freudianism, the Frankfurt school neo-Marxism, to which European Jews have contributed to disproportionately. Trifkovic doesn't say much more than that. Do you know of other articles of Trifkovic published wherein he expands upon or adds to this supposedly "antiSemitic" viewpoint. Trifkovic has published numerous articles all over the place, plus a book or two. Where does he reveal the antiSemitism you revile him with? And what other supposedly "despicable views" does Trifkovic have, in your estimation? Specifically. I know that Trifkovic has said he thinks the Bosnian Serbs were initially attacked and victimized by a Jihad conducted by the Muslim Bosnians. Is that what you say is a despicable view? And finally, Aymenn, are you yourself a practicing Muslim? (Not that it's a crime to be a muslim. It's just good to know. I'm a Christian).

Bhobby, you neglect to mention that Trifkovic's assertion regarding the contribution of certain Jews to Marxism etc., wasn't the only point he advanced in that symposium. See also:-

'It is true, however, that the traditional Right is inevitably antipathetic to certain modes of thought and feeling, to a peculiar Weltanschauung and the resulting forms of public and intra-communal discourse, which are quite properly perceived as specifically Jewish.

Historically, Talmudic Judaism’s insistence on the Jews’ racial uniqueness -- emphasized by the ritual and dietary laws of Talmudic Judaism and on its view of Christians as idolaters -- has ensured that a Jew steeped in his own tradition could not view traditional European or American conservatism with sympathy. His tradition was a form of elaborate survival mechanism based on the zero-sum view of a world divided into “us” and “them.” The Gentile was "the Other" ab initio and for ever.' [http://www.alternativeright.com/main/the-magazine/is-the-traditionalist-right-anti-semitic/]

Spencer denounced those remarks of Trifkovic in that symposium when I alerted him about them. Why are you trying to rationalise them? This is as much as I know regarding what Trifkovic has ever said vis-à-vis Jews and Judaism. Incidentally, a symposium is supposed to be a discussion of ideas, where contributors can debate each other's viewpoints. Trifkovic makes no attempt to take issue with Taki's vile words, and AltRight is a place that has published the writings of Kevin MacDonald, an antisemitic white supremacist: http://www.alternativeright.com/main/the-magazine/remaking-the-right-part-ii/. Google the name by all means.

'I know that Trifkovic has said he thinks the Bosnian Serbs were initially attacked and victimized by a Jihad conducted by the Muslim Bosnians. Is that what you say is a despicable view?'

Yes, because it's pure pseudo-history. The overwhelming majority of atrocities were committed by Serbs against Bosniaks and Croats aimed at cleansing them from mixed areas. That does not mean romanticising the Serb militias' opponents like the Kosovo Liberation Army and their share of atrocities, but pointing out that the Bosnian War was a case of Serb aggression is not jihadist propaganda. I find it amusing that pseudo-historical views on this conflict are also a hallmark of the far-left.

'And finally, Aymenn, are you yourself a practicing Muslim?'

No. I have no association with the religion in any shape or form.

Aymenn cites a writer named Mary Jackson, who took Jihad Watch to task several years ago for comments left there in favor of the BNP.

Actions are taken every day, far and wide, to enforce self-censorship of those would express favor of the counter-Jihad.

Robert makes a good point when he says the comments that purported to support the BNP were years ago, and they found no quarter here, and moved on. Why point that out, at this late time? Especially, when we all know that comments appear on this site from all points of the spectrum. Good and bad.

Thank you for your reply, Aymenn. I can only speak for myself when I say that I had no intention of "smearing you." My only concern was to get to the truth of things.

I will, however, opine here that I am absolutely certain that Robert Spencer adheres to no anti-Semitic views. Anyone who has regularly read Jihad Watch over the last several years could have zero doubt of this. Is it possible that someone who is not anti-Semitic in the least occasionally (and temporarily) might endorse a person or organization which is indeed anti-Semitic? Only one who expects that error should never occur in an individual opposed to Islamic supremacist designs would assert as much. From what you said in your comment here at JW, you understand this.

I will further defer response to you to Robert Spencer, whom I have no doubt you will hear from soon. Thank you again for your reply.

Oh, by the way, there is no scientific proof for anthropogenic global warming. All we have are computer model projections and correlation studies which "support" this bogus theory. And both of these have notorious track records for accuracy and do not constitute scientific proof. Not a single truly scientific study exists to this day which proves that any warming (or cooling) in the environment since the late nineteenth century is due to man. Not one. Besides, since 2007 the earth has been cooling down, just as it has on Mars, this all due to less solar activity. After all, and let's face it, not many factories or SUVs on Mars, now are there?

Tammimi seems to be saying..."[I wasn't attacking Robert, I just thought I'd use him and Jihad Watch as my example for the problem of associating with the wrong crowd]"

Why Robert? Why Jihad Watch? Why not use a more appropriately valid and sinister example than UN-moderated comments? Why not just issue the generic warning without trying to diminish an ally in the anti-Jihad like Robert Spencer? In short, why pick a fight with s friend?

When Trifkovic gives his understanding of why most Jews find it impossible to be attracted to political Conservatism, what he says is first of all true (although there might be more to it than that) but talking about that is something which goes on normally amongst American Republicans and Conservatives, some of whom are Jews, as a way of figuring out an answer to the frequently asked question: "Why are so many Jews liberals or leftists?" You can hear such a discussion occasionally on American Conservative radio talk shows, with Jewish and non-Jewish Republicans talking amiably about that and other things. Where are you from, Aymenn? Get off my phone (as our beloved Bob Grant often says).

Tammimi seems to be saying..."[I wasn't attacking Robert, I just thought I'd use him and Jihad Watch as my example for the problem of associating with the wrong crowd]"

Why Robert? Why not use a more appropriately valid and sinister example than un-moderated comments at Jihad Watch? Why not just issue the generic warning without trying to diminish an ally in the anti-Jihad like Robert Spencer? In short, why pick a fight with a friend and ally?

KrazyKafir, I don't agree. See:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2008/10/excommunicated.html

That was hardly several years back. In any case, the BNP is not the only example I could cite. The BNP has been somewhat eclipsed by the EDL, of which too many members have substantial ties with anti-Catholic Ulster loyalism, football hooliganism and neo-Nazism. See, for example:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxdTEVzzr_s&feature=player_embedded (EDL members vandalising Asian takeaways in Leicester).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riJbq8FZcYM&feature=player_embedded (EDL members giving Nazi salutes).

http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/news/article/1818/EDL-photo-SHOOT (EDL members giving Nazi salutes and expressing support for anti-Catholic Ulster loyalism)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3ZAWQwF2GI&feature=player_embedded (EDL vandalism).

I could go on, but you get the picture. Now, I know that many of you- and Spencer- will claim that the EDL has been infiltrated by far Leftists posing as neo-Nazis etc. However, that is precisely how Nick Griffin and other BNP leaders (who, like those of the EDL, do a good job of putting on a moderate face in public and in interviews) explain away these substantial unpleasant elements in their ranks (see http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/3901631.stm), but they unsurprisingly give no evidence for such assertions. Spencer rightly doesn't take Nick Griffin's sweet words at face value. Why hold double standards vis-à-vis the EDL?

Spencer may also cite the Sikh poster boy and the Jewish division as proof the EDL is really just a group of freedom warriors standing up against Islamic supremacism. Well, the BNP also has a Sikh poster boy in Rajinder Singh, and, like the National Front, has fielded Jewish candidates and has Jewish supporters. Some lovely remarks from the EDL's Sikh poster boy:-

'the muzzies wanna keep away from me im just looking for an excuse im fucked off at the mo fuck the pakis … i just think we shud burn the cunts now!!

Be careful if you go out driving today… driving conditions are awful, ive just come off the road and hit a muslim!! It took me 10 minutes, 2 fields and a golf course, but I got the fucker!!

Hes one of the greatest naturalist of all times, searched the world and showed the british public animals and plants from across the world through the aid of television, and I congratulate him on his retirement, but please before you do retire sir richard attenborough [sic], any chance you can find me a moderate muslim????'

Anti-Muslim bigotry, pure and simple. I raised this issue with EDL apologist Esmerelda Weatherwax, she did not deny the remarks, yet her only retort was that I was advocating 'prejudice against Sikhs' (http://www.newenglishreview.org/blog_display.cfm/blog_id/28257).

Can you at least appreciate my point that we need to do research on whom we should endorse as allies before declaring support? The EDL is by and large a thuggish organisation. The numerous parallels with the BNP mean that the BNP was worth mentioning after all.

If you want to know my ideal anti-jihadist party, think of the new Freiheit party in Germany.

Aymenn - Yes, as you say, a symposium is supposed to be a somewhat lengthy back and forth between a few people on a topic. The alternativeright site billed that as a symposium but it really wasn't. It was three short articles from three contributers, none of whom responded to what the others said. It was not a discussion, it was mislabelled a "symposium". You know that. I know that. Who are you trying to fool? Also, Trifkovic is not a regular contributor to that site (which does have a loathsomely racist slant to it. It could be suspected of neo-fascism, perhaps. I myself wouldn't go on there). That one short article is Trifkovic's only contribution to that website, as far as I can discover. Aymenn, you do admit that's the only inatance you know of as an example of Trifkovic's supposed anti-Semitism. You should know you don't go around accusing a person of Anti-Semitism if you can't back it up. You could get into trouble doing that.

I correspond with Esmerelda Weatherwax.

I *know* her.

I don't know you.

I trust her.

I trust her judgement. She is NOT some stupid girl.

She's met quite a lot of EDL members by now and participated in and observed a couple of their recent rallies.

if she vouches for them, after that, that's good enough for me.

Cornelius, you are again misreading my article. I never 'attacked' anyone here at Jihad Watch. I am merely advising anti-jihadists generally to do research on those with whom they are thinking of aligning. Simple analogy: buying any sort of memorabilia. You don't just leap into buying an item purporting to be a real piece of memorabilia on Ebay without doing some research as to whether it's authentic. Otherwise, you'll be conned, and severely embarassed when you find out someone's having dinner on you as a result of your being 'burned', so to speak. The bottom line is (to borrow a cliché): look before you leap.

I cited Jihad Watch because it's by far the most read anti-jihad blog on the Net. I am not using the fact that a number of commentators here have expressed support for Trifkovic and the BNP as a means to attack Jihad Watch. I am merely asking that they reconsider any such endorsements, especially if they are unaware of some of these individuals and groups' dubious sentiments. Offering advice on this matter does not constitute an 'attack' of any sort, and I am disappointed that you cannot appreciate this.

I await to see how commentators will respond to my points about the EDL.

I realise the EDL has attracted a thuggish lot, and probably racists too, but the EDL itself as an organization doesn’t support a racist ideology, that I can see. And is it any wonder that we are seeing the beginning of a street war (it will get worse) because nobody is doing anything about the situation. Talk about, “FRUSTRATION”. What political party has the guts to stand up to the Isalmists. All I see are a, cowardice, gutless, ruling class that has sold out their country’s history, culture and heritage to an invading ideology that is going to win if someone doesn’t stand up to them. Hasn't Geert Wilders gone through this same gauntlet?

Dumbledoresarmy, I want to believe you, I really do.
I'm been to the EDLs website, I've been in their forum and I agree with where they are coming from. However if you look at them on the street there is clearly a football-hooligan element in their culture and a strong one at that. It's more worse, in my opinion, by the English emphasis rather than British. The St. George flags only serve to underscore the football element.

It's not just my discomfort level it's that unless they move beyond that image they won't garnish the mainstream support that we simply must have.

Hi Bhobby:

Sorry, but you appear to have ignored the other remarks by Trifkovic in that symposium I quoted. Incidentally, I wasn't the first in the blogosphere to notice Trifkovic's words at that symposium. Credit goes to Rebecca Bynum at NER, who had no trouble identifying the symposium and its contributors as antisemitic. Robert has no difficulty seeing what Trifkovic wrote was despicable. Why don't you write to them and tell them why they are wrong about his remarks and that there's a real nugget of truth to what he's asserting?

I'm from Iraq, seeing as you asked about my origins, though at present I'm a student at Oxford University. I was hoping to invite Spencer here to discuss some of these issues more closely. I doubt that will ever happen, or if he will respond to me on this thread.

Incidentally, I note that many people here have expressed delight at sectarian violence in Iraq as a supposed way to 'divide' the 'Camp of Islam'. Some even encourage the West to provoke such tensions in my homeland. Let me say that, as someone who lost one somewhat distant relative at the hands of Sunni insurgents in 2006, and saw another taken hostage by Al-Qa'ida for three weeks in 2007, and still has much of my family in Baghdad, I find such views to be disgusting, ignorant and offensive.

dumbeldoresarmy, I notice that you, like so many EDL supporters, don't actually live in the UK. I have seen many EDL rallies and am all too aware of the thuggish elements in the group. You failed to address any of the links I gave on the EDL, or that Esmerelda did not deal with the point about the Amit Singh's (EDL's Sikh poster boy) anti-Muslim bigotry.

Mainstream support!!!! Where is the mainstream in England right now? Seems by the time the mainstream gets up enough guts to even acknowledge a problem their uncovered daughters will be enjoying their first street caning by the Islamic morality police.

aymen jawad, you should be aware that dumbledoresarmy, and a large contigent of others on here, are not just against islam, they are against Arabs.

They have voiced racist views on the arab race, essentially blaming all of islam on arabs and claim its "arab imperialism".

They have denied the existence of christian arabs in palestine, syria, and jordan, despite the fact that i know some of them and they are definetly arab, and not "Arabdized" assyrians. They claim arab culture is despicable and intolerable.

They want to ban arab immigration into western countries, and stir hatred between arab christans and arab muslims.

Could be you're right, but until a decent number of people get behind it (that's what I mean by mainstream support) nothing will happen.

Geert Wilders dramatic increase in support is an example of what I mean by mainstream support. That's what's needed.

Esmerelda has repeatedly cited stories from the Daily Star as proof of ever encroaching 'Islamisation' in Britain. Much of that awful tabloid's reports are emotionally charged and based on inaccurate information. No wonder that a reporter for the Daily Star- Richard Peppiatt- resigned because of this:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/mar/04/daily-star-reporter-letter-full

The Daily Star routinely portrays Choudary as an immensely powerful figure. It's utter nonsense.

That's not to say that Islamism- violent and stealth- isn't a problem in the UK, but I see no reason to consider Ms. Weatherwax a reliable source.

As regards Iraq, I'll give credit to Cornelius for being one of the few at this site who did not cheer on sectarian violence in my country.

Can you show us any posts by any regulars (or not) where it has been said that Christian Arabs are despicable? Who has said they don't want Arab immigration?

Well, from what I've seen coming out of England it's no wonder that the fight has defaulted to the streets. And I don't see any Wilders on the horizon, either. Not even close. England is in deep trouble.

Oh, please. So tired of the bogus racist charge. The vast majority of folks here at JW are against Islam's many liberty-crushing doctrines, such as death for apostasy, the prohibition pursuant to Sharia of saying anything critical of Islam or Mohammed, the disallowance for non-Muslims to preach their faith of choice to Muslims though Muslims can preach their religion to non-believers and the obnoxious dictate that war should be made upon the unbeliever until all the world is Islamic. Besides, Arabs aren't a race anyway. They are an ethnicity and fall overwhelmingly within the Caucasoid race. Nobody here cares if someone is Arab. They care if they are Muslim. You are a fool at best and a liar at worst and will make no headway here at JW whatsoever if you can't do better than the garbage you've spewed so far. Now wise up or get lost.

and quite alot of people on here are encouraging kurds, berbers, and others to ethnically hate arab as a race, not just Islam.

Its best if you don't associate with these islamophobes. Be proud of being an Arab, and if your an atheist, its even better that you should these islamophobes that an Arab believes in tolerance, they are engaging in a racist campaign to dehumanize arabs

Do you think we are stupid? DDA and katharina the malay stated very racist comments on arabs, and this blog in general posted several lengthy passages on how islam is arab imperialism, and that berbers are rising against the arabs, blah blah blah.

Aymenn - you're wrong. I ignored nothing in Trifkoviks contribution to that pseudo-symposium. What Trifkovic said is simply the truth that there are real historic reasons why European Jews rejected the Conservative political Parties. Those Conservative parties in Europe were explicitly, outwardly, alliances with the Roman Catholic Church. That's not a crime, but it's a fact. And that made it almost impossible for a Jew to ally himself with that particular political persuasion, so instead Jews gravitated to the liberal parties. The Jewish alliance with European classic Liberalism is almost like poart of the Jewish religion. That's not bad. It's unfortunate when it's transported accross the pond to the U.S. because our political traditions in the US are very much different even though we use the same terminology. That's what Trifkovic was alluding to. I've engaged in discussions with Jewish friends and it has been explained to me in almost the same way Trifkovic explains it. If Robert Spencer doesn't see it that way, good for him. I think for myself -- although I do rely on Spencer's expertise on Islamic religious texts. Moreover, since when do you refer to a man's views on something like the Bosnian - Serbian conflict as "despicable" simply because you disagree?

Bullshit. Show us where posters have said Christian Arabs are despicable. Thats what you said. Lets see it, liar.

Show us posts where it says "all" Arabs including Christian Arabs should be banned. You are a liar. Show us posts where non-Muslims Arabs are demonised and despised?

Bhobby, why are you ignoring Trifkovic's ridiculous notion that Talmudic Judaism's dietary and ritual laws are somehow proof of the religion's imaginary emphasis on the Jews' 'racial uniqueness'? These ideas of Jews as a separate race and that they viewed themselves this way were frauds concocted by antisemites in the 18th/19th century.

As for Trifkovic's views on the Bosnian War, they are despicable in the same way as I would regard as repugnant the arguments of anyone trying to portray Hitler's invasion of Poland as an act of defence on behalf of Germans facing discrimination and persecution in the Polish Corridor. It's not a matter of legitimate revisionism, but pseudo-history.

krazykafir, i said that people claimed that christan arabs DIDNT EXIST, which is false

several islamophobes on here, leveled charges that all arab christians were in fact non arab, and forcefully arabdized by arab muslims. They claim all arab christians are "arabdized assyrians", and therefore all real arabs are muslims, and imperialist monsters.

i said that wasn't true, that real christian arabs DO exist

Actually, I do think you're stupid---as well as wrong. And by the way, for centuries Islam has functioned as an excuse for Arab imperialism, just as Nazism functioned as a reason for German imperialism and Communism served its purpose to futher Russian imperialism. And will you get off the idiotic racist charge. Islam isn't a race, doofus. And the Arabs are an ethnicity, not a race. Man, are you dense.

i suppose Christianity is roman imperialism then, and i suppose you will make all of katharina and DDAs comments on arabs magically dissapear

@ “and AltRight is a place that has published the writings of Kevin MacDonald, an antisemitic white supremacist”

This is not correct. MacDonald does care of white interests (just as blacks care for black interests) but he is no “supremacist”. See e.g., his prologue to his most important book on the Jewish Question (JQ) here. He is as “anti-Semitic” as Jihad Watchers are “islamophobic”—i.e., in the context of MacDonald and Trifkovic’s stance on the JQ this word (“anti-Semitism”) is a mere shut-up word.

See also the video about a recent Trifkovic interview. Both, the MacDonald prologue and the Trifkovic video are must read/see for those who claim that Trifkovic has made “anti-Semitic pronouncements”.

Since I give him some credit as intelligent in a bright-sort-of-way, I am left with the conclusion that Aymenn Jawad's conflation of the EDL with the BNP is dishonest.

http://www.hudson-ny.org/1562/english-defense-league

http://newenglishreview.net/blog_display.cfm/blog_id/32467

Dense again. By the time the Roman Empire became Christian, starting with Constantine and completed by the time of Theodosius, the Roman Empire was on the defensive most everywhere, nothing really imperialistic about it by then. So, you're wrong one more time. You're wrong a lot. And why don't you cite the specific objections you have to some commenters' assessments. Generalizations without specifics are worthless you know, sort of like you.

i took a look at what mcadonald said, and his and your views are abhorent

the jewish involvement in communism was due to vicious Czartist persecution of the jews.

The Czarist Russian cossacks regularly raped, tortured, and slaughtered jews in massive pogroms, and created the learned protocols of the elders of zion.

It was AFTER these events that the jews created communist parties and started the Soviet Union, and soon after stalin took charge, the jews were thrown out of power, and the then Russian dominated Soviet Union started persecuting jews one more, which was why most soviet jews made aliyah to israel.

your anti semitic views are despicable, i have nothing more to say on that.

@ i took a look at what mcadonald said, and his and your views are abhorent

Really? I spent two whole days reading that long prologue, and you read it in a minute??

@ your anti semitic views are despicable, i have nothing more to say on that.

Again, I and Trifkovic are as “anti-semitic” as Spencer and you all are “islamophobic”. Those are shut-up words and your response is proof of that.

As to Russian history, do you know that Stalin’s Jews murdered more Gentiles that Himmler himself? If you are biased against Trifkovic or MacDonald’s history, take a good look at a scholarly book written by a Jew. It has a chapter on what the Jews did in Russia that makes no excuses for what they did (here).

DDA : “A proper response to this is to 1. look up your local Coptic church and send them a friendly message of solidarity.”

Gee, a call for solidarity with Egyptian Copts. Seems pretty friendly to me. I second that.

You keep embarrassing yourself. Do you really think just because someone is critical of a people that means they're haters? If I'm critical of Germans when dealing with Nazism (or even the whole course of German history), does that I mean I'm a bigot? Goethe himself said that Germans make trouble for themselves and everyone else as well. When George Kennan opined that Russians through the centuries tend to think of their neighbors as vassals or enemies, did this make Kennan a hater? See where I'm going? It won't do any good to criticize those who criticize Arabs for their faults. And Arab faults are signficant, primarily due to tribalism and the fact that man's worst religion, Islam, is overwhelmingly the religion of Arabs. In fact, if there is a more dysfunctional major people on the planet than the Arabs, I can't right now think who they would be. I mean, c'mon, after all, no one can look at the Arab world and say, yeah, that's a world that works.

You're invoking the old tactic of not dealing with a person's ideas and attempting to refute them but rather just calling them a hater so you don't have to treat with their ideas. This is so lame. Why don't you grow up intellectually---if you can, which I kinda' doubt is in the offing. Go ahead, shatter me. Tell me in detail why Arabs are a people who have their act together.

tell me why DDA and others have to resort to slander (claiming christian arabs don't exist). That is clearly an attempt to slander arabs in general, claiming that all christian arabs were forcefully arabdized, so all "real" muslim arabs are responsible for all of Islam's problem

go type "arabdized dumbledoresarmy site:jihadwatch.org" into google to takek a look


did you know stalin himself was a flaming anti semite, accusing Harry Truman of being a jew?

Did you know the Soviet Union supplied tons of weapons to arab countries during the cold war to fight against israel? Did you know that jews in cold war Soviet Union were forbidden from leaving the country and despite the fact that the Soviets printed hundreds of books in the Yakut language, none were printed in Yiddish?

No one claims that Arab Christians don't exist. What many aver is that many Arab Christians have been dhimmified and this is quite true.

Look, ultimately it's not being Arab which is a problem. The problem is being Muslim. Folks here at JW don't care what ethnicity, race, gender, etc. a person is. They care that they're Muslim because Islam is the one major faith that is totalitarian in structure and ideology. It does not have a Golden Rule for all. Its legal system is draconian in the extreme and does not embrace true equality under the law (you know this or should know it). It is the only religion that calls for war to be made upon the unbeliever. It requires death for apostasy and I could go on and on about its many other heinous and freedom-crushing aspects which no other major religion possesses.

Unfortunately, a very large majority of Arabs are Muslim and this is the principal reason why the Arab world is so screwed up. Hell, look at the entire Islamic world, including the non-Arab 80% of it. Everywhere Islam is predominant, freedom is more or less absent. Islam is a recipe for the stifling of liberty. Surely even you can see this. Done here.

Aymenn - I'm not certain that's what Serge Trifkovic was trying to say. But for sake of truthfulness I'll say what I know. (And I'm not an AntiSemite, and I don't think Serge Trifkovic is either). The Jews of Europe were quite well assimilated into European intellectual culture during the 1700s and 1800s, and so they were not immune to being drawn into the public discussions then which were creating the ideology of racism. Jews aren't perfect. A number of Jewish scholars and leaders helped invent the ideology of racism during the 1800s. That doesn't make them evil, only human. And, moreover, Jews are indeed a definite ethnic group, a nation, even though they're certainly not racially pure. They have never been an exclusively religious or spiritual or theological religion a la Christianity. They are both a nation and a religion, intertwined. Even though Judaism is not universalistic, they have alot of diversity. But I'm way off on a tangent, probably. I've been sticking up for Serge Trifkovic because you have grossly maligned him in a very unfair way, and I think he's a good man. As for you, Aymenn, I don't know you at all.

Not so vehement anti-Semite Stalin was, according to the foremost Jewish expert in anti-Semitism, Albert Lindemann (“To state the obvious, Jews were never purged explicitly as Jews in the Soviet Union, and millions survived the worst years of Stalin’s terror” –final words of his chapter “Jews and Revolution 1917-1934”, Cambridge Univ. Press).

The real question is: do Jihad watchers know that Stalin’s Genrikh Yagoda was the greatest Jewish murderer of the 20th Century, the GPU’s deputy commander and the founder and commander of the NKVD?

Yagoda diligently implemented Stalin’s collectivization orders and is responsible for the deaths of at least 10 million people. His Jewish deputies established and managed the Gulag system.

These facts have been so conveniently swept under the rug through the decades by a media system overrepresented by Jews that it’s no wonder why those ignorant of these facts are prone to label “anti-Semitic” any intellectual who, like Trifkovic, tries to enlighten us about a Jewish problem.

I see, in this thread, that Muslims are working hard to 'split the camp' and sow confusion and distrust.

Re Islam and Arabs, I would second the observations made by 'Wellington', above.

Islam is to Arabs as Nazism was to Germans. It was invented by evil people among the Arabs - as Nazism was invented by evil people among the Germans - and it crystallises and codifies and sacralises pretty well all of the *worst* aspects of pre-Islamic Arab culture. Persons who are ethnically Arab and born-Muslim are indoctrinated to think of themselves as 'the best of peoples'. They *do* look down on non-Arab Muslims, and on all non-Muslims, as inferior to their lordly selves. In other words, they've been soul-poisoned.

The writer who argues that Islam as a vehicle of Arab imperialism - as the 'Arab national religion' or the 'Arab imperial religion' - is a non-Western ex-Muslim. He looks at the content of the texts - including what the texts say about Arabic and Arabs - and the facts of Muslim behaviour as informed by the texts, and he makes a very convincing case. Wafa Sultan and Nonie Darwish, who both grew up as Arabic-speaking Muslims, in Egypt and Syria respectively, are just as scathing about the kinds of things that - discernible as particular aspects of pre-Islamic Arab culture - were preserved and perpetuated and intensified in the ideological code of Islam, as Anwar Sheikh is. It goes without saying that there must have been aspects and elements of pre-Islamic arab culture that were NOT taken up into Islam, just as there were all kinds of elements of German culture that Nazism actively rejected or suppressed.

The only indigenous Arab Christians in Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Bahrain, Qatar, Kuwait, the Emirates, etc, are apostates from Islam who live in hiding as 'secret believers' and tend to get killed if their apostasy is discovered. Of course there are some Arabic-speaking Christians from other places living in those countries as expats.

There are Arabic-speaking Christians in Jordan, and also in and around Israel, and in Lebanon. Maronites in Lebanon do not necessarily regard themselves as 'Arabs'; and quite a few 'Palestinian' Christians are of Armenian or Greek extraction. As for those in Jordan, and in and around Israel: some *are* ethnically Arab; some (in Israel, where they can get away with it) were born both Arab and Muslim but have apostasised and are now Arab Christians - ex-Muslim. I regard such persons - born both Arab and Muslim, but converted to Christ - as having *redeemed* their Arab ethnicity/ identity; they show us what Arabs can be, once the spiritual cancer that is Islam is removed from their souls.

In North Africa - Algeria, Tunisia, Morocco, Libya - the only Arabic-speaking Christians would be Coptic expat workers and perhaps some 'Palestinian' Arab Christians; or else apostates from Islam, living in secret, in Libya, or in semi-secret, in the other three countries. In Egypt, there are Arabic-speaking Coptic Christians - representing the pre-Arab indigenous people, though doubtless with an admixture of 'Arab' genes from rapes committed upon them down the centuries - and some very brave Egyptian Arab apostates from Islam, such as Mohammed Hegazy and his wife, who live in hiding, exposed to death threats from Muslims.

The Christians in Iraq *are*, overwhelmingly, of Assyrian ethnicity, some still speaking and reading their own ancient Syriac language as well as Arabic (there are some Armenians, as also in Syria). Christians in Syria speak Arabic but are mostly Assyrian by ethnicity.

Kurdish Muslims and Iraqi Arab Muslims do sometimes convert to Christianity...but they risk their lives in so doing. Canon Andrew White of Baghdad baptised 14 Iraqis (Arabs, I assume) at their own request, all of them formerly Muslim; within a month all but three had been murdered by Muslims enforcing the sharia punishment for apostasy. I salute such brave ex-Muslim Arab converts to Christianity; they are the saints and martyrs of the Arabian church...I recall hearing of a Saudi Arab girl who converted to Christianity after encountering the gospel on the internet; her father murdered her as soon as he found out what had happened.

One must remember that many of those Muslims in North Africa, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq who regard themselves today as ethnically Arab would have quite a few people among their ancestors who were not ethnically Arab **at all** - e.g. who were Jewish or Coptic or Berber or Assyrian girls seized and raped by marauding Muslims, or who broke under threats or could no longer endure the misery of dhimmitude and converted to Islam. One just has to look at the histories - including those written by Muslims - to realize this.

None of these statements that I have just made is 'bigoted' or 'racist'; I am describing facts.


Having waded through the posts on this thread, I see a massive drift from the essentials. For example; there's a lot of 'history' being discussed and finger pointing about who said what or what X really meant etc..

Back to basics, please.

Islam is a fraud set up by a plagiarising fraud and murderer. Its agenda is to subjugate the world and impose Sharia. And its main plank is the aim of killing every Jew on planet Earth.
That's how the situation stands now!

That's reason enough for everyone who wishes to live in a free world to get together and resist the onslaught from Islam.

I'm not a close follower of Serge Trifkovic. I've read articles of his over the years on various websites. I am not aware that he has written extensively on Jewish history, although it's evident he knows something about it. I would hesitate to associate him with MacDonald, of whom I know nothing. I don't follow the alternativeright website. I saw MacDonald's name there. It would be better if Serge Trifkovic spoke for himself. Don't take it too personally, Cesar Tort, but I put no credence in what you tell us either, although I believe you have read the histories you reference. Which is much more than I can say about this moron "horse" character who has intruded himself. Horse is quite uneducated about what he wants to talk about, obviously.

@ "but I put no credence in what you tell us either"

What exactly? Solzhenitsyn wrote two non-fictional books, including his Archipelago; the rest were novels. Have any among you read Solzhenitsyn’s non-fictional “200 Years Together”, about the Jewish Question?

As to MacDonald, yes, he is fairly controversial. That’s why I recommend to those interested in the controversy his prologue (linked above) of the most important book of his academic trilogy about this question.

And for good measure.

I will add that on the subject of Islam and Arabs I am fully in agreement with the statements made by Wellington in the course of this thread.

That is, the postings made by Wellington on March 6 at 6.27 pm, at 6.45 pm, at 7.20 pm, and at 7.44 pm.

Buraq

what you said.

Hear, hear!

I am a BNP member. I leave posts here occasionally and value the insights that this site gives me.

Sometimes I agree with what is written sometimes not.

Us "Neofascists" have as much concern about Islam as anyone else.

However, instead of sitting on our fat arses pontificating as some here do, we actually campaign and put ourselves on the line to do something about it and have been physically attacked for doing so.

We broke the story on Muslim Grooming of our young women and girls 8 years ago and campaigned on it.

We took on the fascist Commission for Racial Equality and won.

We constantly campaign against Multiculturalism.

Our Chairman and other senior figures in the party have faced personal bankruptcy.

We fight elections and raise the issue of Islam, Jihad and Islamism constantly. Take a look at our site, if you do not believe me.

Whether some people on this site like it or not, Nationalism is on the rise all over Europe in different forms so there must be tens of millions "Neofascists" out there - what a pity.

We are as entitled to our views and political opinions as anyone else - though perhaps some of the more "enlightened" bloggers on this site would like to ban us in the interests of democracy, freedom and conscience.

Go ahead.

Because you cannot ban an idea.

Horse does not bring anything to this thread except horsesh!t.

"Islam is to Arabs as Nazism was to Germans. It was invented by evil people among the Arabs - as Nazism was invented by evil people among the Germans"

Read any Hayek recently (The Road to Serfdom)- he does a pretty good job of explaining the intellectual underpinnings of Nazism.

To say that Nazism was invented by "evil people" is to take reductionism to an absurd level.

There is no similarity between the two - except to say that the end result is the same.

Totalitarianism.


Please remember:
Don't let the trolls divide & conquer. We are under attack because they know the truth will condemn islam. JW has become a serious threat to them. Don't be taken in, they will try just about anything..

Dr. Trifkovic's comments cited by the malicious Aymeen Jawad may have been "politically incorrect", but I do not consider them to be anti-Semitic. He is simply discussing the animosity that has occurred at different times between elements of the Jewish community and the conservative movement.

Yes, in some places, in the past, observant Jews disliked and feared Christians, and deliberately remained apart from them, largely because they actually were under attack. See Tevye's attitude in "Fiddler on the Roof" as an example of this. (Not that a good Christian would attack Jews - let's just categorize these miscreants as "from a Christian background" or "non-Jews".) This is a historical matter; Trifkovic did not imply that it was true of present-day Jews.

The other part of the statement is a cultural issue. I also roundly condemn "Marxism (including neoconservatism as the bastard child of Trotskyism), Freudianism, Frankfurt School cultural criticism, Boasian anthropology, etc." These are not exclusively, or even mostly, Jewish phenomena. On the other hand it is also true that many Jews have made the mistake of getting involved in these things which are deeply inimical to Jewish traditional values. It is clear to me that this is not a faction of Judaism, but a rebellion against it.

The same type of thing is true of those Christian Serbs who abandoned their religious beliefs to fight on behalf of Tito and the communist system. That proved to be a mistake, too. For the record, I had some Serb relatives - in the US, and no longer living - who actually were Communists. I am not Jewish myself, but I also have some Jewish relatives.

I am thoroughly sick of the constant demand that people repudiate "politically incorrect" statements made by somebody else at some time in the past. It is nobody's obligation to do that. One can defend another person against a wrong being done in the present, without being obligated to defend - or to repudiate - any other statement that the other person made on another topic in the past.

Since when does Aymenn Jawad care in the least about defending the interests of Jews? His comments are just a particularly nasty method of poisoning relationships within the counterjihad movement. If any comments like Aymenn Jawad's ever show up on my blog, they get flushed into the spam bin without a second glance.

I would never put up with such groundless accusations and baseless slurs such as Aymenn Jawad's comparing the Serbs to the Nazis. Talk about pushing one of my personal hot buttons. My father's cousin went back to Vojvodina in the former Yugoslavia some time after World War II, looking for our Serbian relatives. He found no trace of them. The Nazis in the Balkans seldom kept records of whom they killed, and the Tito regime, in the name of "brotherhood and unity," forbade the Serbs to count their own dead or to attempt to trace them, or even to discuss the matter. It's pretty hard not to take this as a personal insult.

'comparing the Serbs to the Nazis'

A clear distortion of what I wrote. I never compared 'the Serbs' to anyone. It's bigoted to pass judgments on peoples as a whole. But you cannot deny that Serb militias were overwhelmingly responsible for acts of aggression in the Bosnian War. My point was that trying to claim otherwise is pseudo-history, no better than, for example, asserting that the German invasion of Poland was an act of self-defence on behalf of Germans suffering persecution in the Polish Corridor.

I am well aware of the historical context behind the tensions between Croats, Bosniaks and Serbs. For example, the dhimmi status that was accorded to Serbs under the Ottoman Empire, and many Croats and Bosniaks collaborated with the Nazis in WWII. That's not an excuse for aggression 50 years later. Following such logic, one might as well blame Belgium for the Rwandan Genocide.

As for the comments by user 'Horse', I leave it to other readers to debate him/her, though I will tell him/her that I consider myself Iraqi, not Arab, as most Iraqis are mainly descendants of the indigenous Aramaic-speaking peoples of the Fertile Crescent.

'imnokuffar', I never suggested banning the BNP. It is in contravention of freedom of expression. The same goes for Trifkovic, though I am surprised to see how many have come to defend his anti-Semitism and other abhorrent views.

A simple question to Trifkovic's defenders: had a Muslim made those comments that Trifkovic did at that AltRight symposium, what's the probability you would have regarded him/her as antisemitic? Quite high, no doubt.

"Incidentally, I note that many people here have expressed delight at sectarian violence in Iraq as a supposed way to 'divide' the 'Camp of Islam'. Some even encourage the West to provoke such tensions in my homeland. Let me say that, as someone who lost one somewhat distant relative at the hands of Sunni insurgents in 2006, and saw another taken hostage by Al-Qa'ida for three weeks in 2007, and still has much of my family in Baghdad, I find such views to be disgusting, ignorant and offensive."

These views were expressed and are promoted by Hugh Fitzgerald, a writer hired by Robert Spencer to pen articles for jihadwatch. Robert Spencer has consistently endorsed him and his views and never once repudiated him.

Before condemning jwatchers for logical alliances about what they perceive to be the most pressing existential threat of their lifetimes, you need to take a look at your own so-called allies.

'These views were expressed and are promoted by Hugh Fitzgerald, a writer hired by Robert Spencer to pen articles for jihadwatch'.

Hugh does not promote such views now. In any case, Hugh and Robert have no association anymore.

And, may I ask, do you agree with those suggestions vis-à-vis Iraq? Further, what do readers generally make of these ideas expressed by 'Roland Shirk':-

'If I could have Mubarak's ear, I would whisper just two words of wisdom: Tienanmen Square'.

I do hope that readers here- and Robert- who profess to stand for human rights for all do not believe that Chinese methods of repression should be used on Egyptian protestors, very many of whom, as Raymond Ibrahim notes, are just calling for real, secular democracy.

Is Trifkovic some degree of anti-Semite? Spencer seems to think so. I'll note that a paleo-conservative website Trifkovic writes for (Chronicles) often seems to attract in the comments sections a number of people pushing a sort of anti-Semitism lite. In other words, most of them are not Nazis who want death camps, but a regular contingent (at least the few times I visited) do seem to dislike or consider somehow inferior Jews as a group. My very fallible and perhaps mistaken impression was that there is some extreme variety of conservative Catholicism behind the peculiar anti-Semitism in question.

It seems, dda, a somewhat new slant has developed by those who find Jihad Watch a threat and that is that one is anti-Arab if they criticize Islam. Well, we have to be prepared for any kind of approach that seeks to delegitimize JW. Hope you are well.

Looks like a good old Mohammedan s#*tstirrer trying his best to create distrust and division. We don't need it.

Dr Thilo Sarazzin, ex Bundesbanker and writer of "Germany does away with itself" was smeared as an anti-Semite because he stated in his books that Jews overall have a higher IQ.
I for one was pleased,(certainly didn't hurt my feelings) but the usual shriekers found 'racism' and whatever they wanted to smear him with.

"Hugh does not promote such views now. In any case, Hugh and Robert have no association anymore.

And, may I ask, do you agree with those suggestions vis-à-vis Iraq? Further, what do readers generally make of these ideas expressed by 'Roland Shirk':-"

Hugh continues to promote such views at the new english review, here's a 2010 article: http://www.newenglishreview.org/blog_display.cfm/blog_id/26959

The reason Hugh is no longer posting is because Robert can no longer afford to pay him (he said so himself), not for any other reason (his articles are still posted on the main page).

I think you are unable to see what is in front of your very eyes. Where is Roland Shirk posting? What was the reaction to his post about Tianamen Square in the comments section? Was there general agreement, did anyone offer a repudiation? I suggest you do a simple google search and see for yourself.

I do not subscribe to the idea of encouraging civil war in Muslim countries and enjoying the spectacle but it seems you are unable to accept that this website advocates exactly that.

@ f'ov222
'I do not subscribe to the idea of encouraging civil war in Muslim countries and enjoying the spectacle but it seems you are unable to accept that this website advocates exactly that.'

You're a liar and a clown! This website advocates learning about Islam's real agenda, and through education, defeating Islam.

An example of learning would be to read the contents of Room 101 on this website. Everyone should read it! Including you, you dumpling.

Robert, sooner or later all Muslims revert to their natural jihadi and taqiyya toting state. It doesn't surprise me!!!

Wellington, just so you know, I don't think this site is 'anti-Arab' in any way.

'The reason Hugh is no longer posting is because Robert can no longer afford to pay him (he said so himself), not for any other reason (his articles are still posted on the main page).'

That's not the only reason Hugh ended his connection with JW.

Having followed your suggestion, flarov22, it turns out that there was some disagreement with Roland Shirk on this matter. That is reassuring.

Also, I don't think you can speak for the website and claim that it advocates 'encouraging civil war in Muslim countries and enjoying the spectacle'. You would have to ask the director and conduct a poll amongst the readers.

Mr Al-Tamimi, I find it very hard to swallow your line that you ''have no association with the religion in any shape or form''. You're evidently not unintelligent, and judging from your writing you have recieved an expensive education, and you purport to be at Oxford University. .reading what is anybody's guess, but your interest in the counterjihad movement puzzles me, all the more so because you state no reason as to why you take that stance. .and if your stance was genuine, why do you make a deliberate point of trying to tar the EDL with the 'bigot' brushstroke, yet not utter a word of condemnation about Arab bigotry conducted under the auspices of Muhammedanism? I find it very disturbing that you feel fit, in your position of privilige amongst the dreaming spires of Oxford, to put the proverbial boot into the haunches of the EDL. There are things about you that just do not add up.

Mr Al-Tamimi, I find it very hard to swallow your line that you ''have no association with the religion in any shape or form''. You're evidently not unintelligent, and judging from your writing you have recieved an expensive education, and you purport to be at Oxford University. .reading what is anybody's guess, but your interest in the counterjihad movement puzzles me, all the more so because you state no reason as to why you take that stance. .and if your stance was genuine, why do you make a deliberate point of trying to tar the EDL with the 'bigot' brushstroke, yet not utter a word of condemnation about Arab bigotry conducted under the auspices of Muhammedanism? I find it very disturbing that you feel fit, in your position of privilige amongst the dreaming spires of Oxford, to put the proverbial boot into the haunches of the EDL. There are things about you that just do not add up.

Bhobby is 100% on target.

I’ve read Dr. Trifkovic’s work for years, as I have Roberts, and I must say that I am thoroughly disappointed that Dr. Trifkovic’s *analysis* was, in my opinion, completely taken out of context.

Mr. Al-Tamimi, a historical or intelligence analysis on a topic is completely different than a *personal* opinion. Dr. Trifkovic has given numerous analysis on political policies and historical events / origins in terms of how they have impacted ethnic groups,religions, society, countries, etc. over the course of history. This has NOTHING to do with a personal opinion - - - it is a professional analysis.

On another side note, I am very disappointed and shocked that Robert Spencer has taken his action in deeming Dr. Trifkovic’s statement as anti-Semitic. Dr. Trifkovic is a brother of truth in this quest to fight radical Islam, and from what I’ve read, he has always been extremely supportive of Robert. Robert has referenced Dr. Trifkovic and his work numerous times on Jihadwatch.org, and all of a sudden, Robert says he is not a “friend” of Dr. Trifkovic's - - in essence, throwing Dr. Trifkovic under the bus.

All this - - - for an unknown writer who doesn’t know the difference between personal and professional analysis. To say that I am shocked by this entire incident is an understatement, as I have three of Robert’s books and followed Jihadwatch for years.

It was a classless, shameful, and unprofessional move, and Robert Spencer owes Dr. Trifkovic a serious apology, as do you Mr. Al-Tamimi.

'if your stance was genuine, why do you make a deliberate point of trying to tar the EDL with the 'bigot' brushstroke, yet not utter a word of condemnation about Arab bigotry conducted under the auspices of Muhammedanism?'

I find it odd to see defenders of the EDL and other commentators here emulating the tactics of Islamic apologists, who, whenever the question of the role of traditional Islamic theology in inspiring jihadist actions is raised, resort to 'tu quoque' arguments (Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, blah blah blah...). I don't understand why you think condemnation of Islamic bigotry [and this word 'Mohammedan' is just obnoxious] and condemnation of the EDL's thuggishness are mutually exclusive. In any case, I note that you do not deny the EDL's ties to anti-Catholic Ulster loyalism, neo-Nazism and football hooliganism. Even the Daily Mail here in the UK realises this (oh, but the Daily Mail is just another 'dhimmi' newspaper, right?). Why you appear to want to excuse these unpleasant aspects of the EDL in the same way that Karen Armstrong whitewashes Islamic history is beyond me.

Your line of argumentation reminds me of those who try to explain jihadism as just the result of poverty. Please see some of my other articles before you rush into judgments about me:-

http://www.aymennjawad.org/7831/oppose-the-ground-zero-mosque

http://www.aymennjawad.org/8451/poverty-militant-islam

Jew-hating is endemic to Mohammedanism. Yep, Mohammedanism.

Didn't Mohammed mass-murder the Jewish tribes of Arabia when they wouldn't convert to Islam? Yep. Aren't Jew's referred to in the Koran by the Arabian pagan moon deity "allah" as "apes and pigs?" Yep. Aren't Jews referred to in the Koran as the "worst enemies of the believers?" Yep. ("Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the
Jews..." (Qur'an 5:82).

In it's rabid Jew-hating, Islam is quite similar to Nazism. The Mohammedans hope to exterminate the Jews of Israel for their "Arab unity" just as the Nazis' exterminated European Jewry (and other "subhuman" groups) for "Aryan purification."

So, for Mohammedans to complain about others' "anti-Semitism" is hypocritical in the extreme. Off the charts.

"O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors; they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust. (Qur'an, 5:51)

Bukhari (52:177) - Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew
hiding behind me, so kill him."

“When judgment day arrives, Allah will give every Muslim a Jew or Christian to kill so that the Muslim will not enter into hell
fire.” — Mohammed (Mishkat Al-Messabih, vol. 2, no. 5552.)

"I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslim" - Muhammad, Sahih Muslim 19.4366.

"O ye who believe! The idolaters only are unclean." -- Qur'an 9:28
(The "idolators" being Jews and Christians.)

"Fight the people of the Book (Jews and Christians) and extort money from them." (Koran 9:29)

Of course there are many more Jew/Christian-hating verses in the Koran and ahadith.

I always find it amazing how a people who have basically contributed nothing positive to the world except oil, a geographical accident, are so arrogant haughty and brazen. If it was up to the Mohammedans we wouldn't even have the light bulb. Oriana Fallaci got it so right in "The Rage and the Pride."

How amusing to see yet another example of tu quoque to prove my point; and one that is based on an entirely false premise concerning which religion I adhere to.

Aymenn, if you would care to re-read the comment on the New English Review dated 30th June 2010 to which you refer you will see that I invited you to read my presentation to the New English Review symposium which was due to go on line the following day, and in which I covered the matter of the prejudice against Sikhs which prompts that response from Amit Singh which is more vigorous and less politically correct that you may be used to in academia.
As you never returned to me I assumed that either you took my point or had decided that we should agree to differ. Either way your silence followed by your aspiration to join us as a contributor to the New English Review (articles submitted in November and this month) seemed to suggest that the matter was closed.
I appreciate that with exams and preparation to take up your place at Oxford University you may not have had time to read my presentation. I forgive you for that but please do not say that I did not respond.
You also say "I see no reason to consider Ms. Weatherwax a reliable source." You are entitled to your opinion, so long as it remains only your opinion.
I wish you well in your studies at one of the finest institutions of education my country provides its young people. It is a privilege I hope you will do credit to by maturing from a clever young boy, into a wiser and mature man.

Actually, I find you to be the "amusing" one, just another Mohammedan with his Taqiya deceit and lies.

"War is deception" - Mohammed

The Qur'an does not teach equality of any kind between the Muslims, "the best of peoples" (Koran 3:110) and the unbelievers, "the most vile of created beings" (Koran 98:6).

Muslims pretend they want "peace" in non-Muslim countries, only until they are strong enough to wage Jihad. Right now they are just increasing their numbers for that day, the day of the Grand Jihad - to destroy the West from within. That is the credo of the Muslim Brotherhood, btw.

I don't trust one word from a Mohammedan.

After perusing through all of the posts thus far I find it curious that Mr. Al Tamimi singled out the EDL as an example. Have you ever meet an EDL member? How about a private conversation with a single sole? Or do you do what the MSM does and filter through all the good lads until you find one that fits your narrative? I was lucky enough to have personally met with EDL members while they were here on their own dime to protest the 9/11 "mosquerade". I found all of them to be fine lads, intelligent, passionate about their heritage ( and they should be as they have left a democracy in all of their past footprints) sane and very tolerant. They are the ones being beaten, raped and threatened for speaking the truth about Islam.
So you subscribe to the Abu Graib theory that all of our soldiers are evil because of a few lost souls? I must now question your veracity and motives because of your EDL statements.

Regarding Robert, he has been scrutinized more than anyone besides Geert/Pamela and has remained unscathed because knowledge and the truth are still a winning combination.


Esmerelda, I didn't say you never responded to me. I only affirmed that your retort to me was to explain away Amit Singh's bigotry as the result of 'prejudice against Sikhs'. By the way, I sincerely apologise for my disparaging tone towards you earlier in this thread.

But please understand that trying to rationalise and excuse Sikh bigotry on the grounds of prejudice against Sikhs is no better than explaining away the fact that Maajid Nawaz joined the bigoted group Hizb-ut-Tahrir primarily because he was subject to abuse from some whites when he was younger and saw his best friend murdered by Combat 18 thugs.

Moreover, can you deny the links to anti-Catholic Ulster loyalism, football hooliganism and neo-Nazism in the EDL? The Daily Mail certainly couldn't, and these trends can't be explained solely because of Islamic bigotry. I appreciate that the EDL was founded in immediate response to a protest by Al-Muhaijiroun against returning troops, and I don't approve of the UAF's methods of confrontation against the EDL, but as is clear, the EDL is a hotbed of thuggishness and extremism itself and cannot be deemed a sane anti-jihadist force.

When I said I don't consider you a 'reliable source', it's because I feel it wholly inappropriate that stories from the Daily Star should be cited as proof of encroaching Islamization. The fact is that the newspaper has fabricated stories on this issue and makes Anjem Choudary look like an all-powerful demi-god. It just discredits the NER. I am still happy to write essays on classical literature for NER.

Thank you for wishing me all the best in my life here at Oxford and for your polite response. Take care.

'is no better than explaining away the fact that Maajid Nawaz joined the bigoted group Hizb-ut-Tahrir primarily because he was subject to abuse from some whites when he was younger and saw his best friend murdered by Combat 18 thugs.'

Apologies. I meant to say that Maajid Nawaz's identity crisis as a lad which led to his joining HUT stemmed primarily from some racist abuse he suffered and the murder of his best friend at the hands of Combat 18.

In response to Mr. Al-Tamimi's taking exception to the use of the phrase Mohammedanism, as "obnoxious", I offer:

“How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property (either as a child, a wife, or a concubine) must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the Queen; all know how to die; but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science (the science against which it had vainly struggled) the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome.”
-Churchill-

What I find obnoxious is people who demand total ideological lock-step, looking for any slight ommission or misstep to render a person or organization as bigoted in an effort to degrade the greater good against the greatest evil, which is Mohammedanism, or Islam if you are inherently sensitive.

I guess in this age of the anti-jihad movement, Robert must repeatedly affirm the distinction of anti-jihad, or anti-Islam since they are inseparable as a core doctrinally mandated tenet, as opposed to anti-Muslim, as well as rufudiate on a daily basis everything else that everyone else has ever said which transgresses the moral compass of Mr. al-Tamimi. That Mr. al-Tamimi did not give the initial benefit of the doubt to Robert is the most egregious act in this entire exchange.

I also wonder about a sound and feasible strategy for countering Islamic jihad, while simultaneously upholding the total non-discrimination of the rights of all Muslims at all times. Though I am not suggesting genocide as a morally acceptable proposition in any way, I wonder how Mr. Tamimi views the US administration historically under Reagan, who not only supported, but actusally facilitated a civil war between Iran and Iraq.

'the phrase Mohammedanism, as "obnoxious", I offer...'

Similarly, the word 'Negro' was once commonly used to refer to black people, but is generally seen as offensive today.

'That Mr. al-Tamimi did not give the initial benefit of the doubt to Robert is the most egregious act in this entire exchange.'

Except I did give him the benefit of the doubt. As I said in the article Spencer responded to:-

'Unfortunately, however, such adulation fails to take into account many of Trifkovic's despicable views. Most notably, his fans OFTEN REMAIN UNAWARE of his anti-Semitic views, as articulated in an "Alternative Right" symposium asking, "Is the Alt Right Anti-Semitic?"

http://www.aymennjawad.org/8869/anti-jihadism-unholy-alliances

Many readers here appear to think that person W remaining unaware of viewpoint X of person Y translates to endorsement of X by W. It doesn't.

There really was nothing 'defamatory' or libelous about the article as Spencer imagines (please pay particular attention to the first comment I wrote on this thread). It is noteworthy that Spencer bullied the editors at the American Thinker into removing the article from view on the main page, something they rightly viewed as irrational. This strikes me as the hallmark of CAIR, which regularly campaigns to have articles it does not like taken down.

'I wonder how Mr. Tamimi views the US administration historically under Reagan, who not only supported, but actually facilitated a civil war between Iran and Iraq.'

I view that administration as despicable for supporting it, but their role in 'facilitating' it is greatly exaggerated. The fact is that the US supplied less than 1% of Saddam's weapons in that war, and the backing given to Iran was hardly significant in any way.


"Similarly, the word 'Negro' was once commonly used to refer to black people, but is generally seen as offensive today."

Negro referred to a person'r skin color, whereas Mohammedan implies a follower of Islam. Skin color and religious affiliation are quite different. Whereas skin color is a gentic predisposition it is especially detestable in comparison to those who choose to follow Islam. Many Muslims don't choose as most are born into it, so that is conceded in advance, but many do, and continue to do so after a point where apostasy is possible. It is a minor point, but one I found curious in your disdain for a lack of deference to the Islamic prophet.

"Except I did give him the benefit of the doubt. As I said in the article Spencer responded to:-"

Well, you say that you did. You did notify Spencer via email prior to the article being published, but by your own admission, you sent word to "hold" the article after you received correspondence from Spencer, belieing that the article was originally sent prior to your notification or his response, so I maintain that the benefit granted was inadequate.

"Many readers here appear to think that person W remaining unaware of viewpoint X of person Y translates to endorsement of X by W. It doesn't."

More specifically, person W (Spencer), being unaware of position X (anti-Semtism), by person Y (Trifvkovic), while still supporting Y, though not fully informed is exactly the guilt by association you used to attack Spencer, again with your word of giving the benefit of the doubt in question here in my estimation.

"It is noteworthy that Spencer bullied the editors at the American Thinker into removing the article from view on the main page, something they rightly viewed as irrational."

How did he accomplish that? Please clarify.

"I view that administration as despicable for supporting it, but their role in 'facilitating' it is greatly exaggerated."

I understand your position and disagree wholeheartedly, but at least you made yourself clear in the context of your writing, and it is important to determine a person's predisposition when analyzing their critical remarks, but what is the purpose of the qualifier of the minimal input by the US in "facilitating" the civil war? Did I make a mistatement or are you suggesting that it is less dispicable than if they had supplied more arms to each side?

Having looked at what passes for discussion here I have revised my opinion.

Most of you have your heads stuck up your "intellectual" arses and are not fit to run a piss up in a brewery.

Do something, don't bicker you arseholes.

Logging off.

'It is a minor point, but one I found curious in your disdain for a lack of deference to the Islamic prophet.'

No, it's not about 'lack of deference' to anyone. Why not just use the word 'Muslim' to refer to followers of Islam? You have given no reason for preferring the word 'Mohammedan'.

'Well, you say that you did. You did notify Spencer via email prior to the article being published, but by your own admission, you sent word to "hold" the article after you received correspondence from Spencer, belieing that the article was originally sent prior to your notification or his response.'

I never used the word 'hold' in any of my correspondances over the editing of this article. I simply asked, upon being notified of the update, that the article be edited in light of the change to the blog posting in question. From the AT editor himself (Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 12:01:03 -0800
):-

'Gentlemen:

I have just discovered the revised version of the article, which did indeed go through the hands of Larrey and Drew prior to publication. It was my mistake in not noticing and redoing the work of putting it on our server. I have just now substituted the updated version, along with an editorial comment regretting publication of the first version. I take complete responsibility.

Thomas Lifson, editor'

'is exactly the guilt by association you used to attack Spencer'

See? It all comes back to 'attack'- and illustration of how you are misreading the article. It does reflect the paranoia that pervades much of this site. As a certain individual commented:-

'Spencer equates his own person with anti-jihadism.. To criticize Spencer is to weaken anti-jihadism, help Islamic supremacists and become their enabler. This is pathological narcissism.'

My article was NOT an attack on Spencer or anyone else here. I was just offering advice: namely, do research on those whom you are thinking of calling allies. I did NOT suggest that anyone disassociate himself from Spencer because he was previously unaware of Trifkovic's antisemitism.


'How did he accomplish that? Please clarify.'

Why not just look at the homepage of the American Thinker (http://www.americanthinker.com/)? My article was originally published on 5th March. Why isn't it in the section of articles listed for 5th March? But click on 'More Blog Entries' and you'll still find Spencer's response to me. As Lifson told me (Sun, 6 Mar 2011 13:35:30 -0800):

'He wants it (i.e. my article) down. He is changing his demands and not behaving rationally in my view.'

'are you suggesting that it is less dispicable than if they had supplied more arms to each side?'

It was despicable, but would have been even more so if the US had been the main supplier of arms to each side.


On the contrary, Robert, Thomas sent me an email in the afternoon asking whether I would be agreeable to a revision instead. I answered in the affirmative. Then, that evening he sent an email noting that he put up the revised version he forgot to publish in the first place. I agreed to this (in a reply which I carbon copied to you), saying that it was fine together with your response. What's more, you yourself said that you agreed to leaving my article up if your response was allowed on the blog. And ultimately, it is up to the editor whether the article should be left in place (Saturday, March 05, 2011 11:25 AM). Here was the original email I sent you make mention of:-


Hi Thomas,

Owing to the fact that I submitted the article 'Anti-Jihadists and Unholy Alliances' to the American Thinker prior to Spencer's update of http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/02/srdja-trifkovic-author-of-sword-of-the-prophet-barred-from-canada.html (the Jihad Watch post in question) , I did send notification of this update to Larrey Anderson to forward to the editors who worked on my piece. However, in the final version that was published it seems this update was not taken into account. As a result, a terrible misunderstanding has arisen and Spencer now feels that I am out to defame him (as I was away for most of today, I could not immediately respond to his initially legitimate query), and has threatened to write a response unless I ask you to remove the article from the American Thinker. Would you mind removing the article or prefer to leave it in place?'

I wouldn't really call what I wrote an explicit request. I just said it to placate your whining.

The fault for the breakdown in relations is entirely your own. And it's noteworthy you allow people on your threads to make libelous claims about me, alleging that I am a 'Mohamedan' practising 'Taqiya'.

'FYI in this Aymenn is quoting without attribution a dishonest and self-promoting "counter-jihadist"'

You're right, I'm quoting Lawrence Auster, a despicable white supremacist (I didn't link to his site, for obvious reasons) I disavow completely but happens to be right on just this one little point.

You are ignoring the fact that I changed my mind on that day when Lifson asked if I was agreeable to a revision of the article, seeing as how you wanted to publish a response on the Blog anyway.

And what you deem to have originally been a 'request' wasn't one at all. I only told you it was a 'request' to placate your paranoia:-

From: Aymenn Jawad [mailto:aaj892@hotmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2011 11:25 AM
To: American Thinker
Subject: RE: One more thing

Hi Thomas,

Owing to the fact that I submitted the article 'Anti-Jihadists and Unholy Alliances' to the American Thinker prior to Spencer's update of http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/02/srdja-trifkovic-author-of-sword-of-the-prophet-barred-from-canada.html (the Jihad Watch post in question) , I did send notification of this update to Larrey Anderson to forward to the editors who worked on my piece. However, in the final version that was published it seems this update was not taken into account. As a result, a terrible misunderstanding has arisen and Spencer now feels that I am out to defame him (as I was away for most of today, I could not immediately respond to his initially legitimate query), and has threatened to write a response unless I ask you to remove the article from the American Thinker. Would you mind removing the article or prefer to leave it in place?

Regards,
Aymenn.

It's amazing how you have stooped to CAIR's level.

I choose to use the word 'Muhammedanism' in place of 'Islam', because I bear no credence to the claims of Muhammed as to being the 'seal of the prophets' blah blahblah. . I differentiate between those seeking some simple divinity, and those who would follow in Muhammed's footsteps to rob, murder, rape plagarize and worse, say that it was ordained.

'You write an attack piece on me'

You have yet to show how any part of what I wrote constituted an 'attack' on you. It's just an illustration of your own paranoia. Two central claims of yours:-

1. An alleged implication that you endorsed Trifkovic's antisemitism.

2. An alleged insinuation that you secretly supported the BNP.

With regards to 1., did you read this part of the article:-

Unfortunately, however, such adulation fails to take into account many of Trifkovic's despicable views. Most notably, his fans OFTEN REMAIN UNAWARE of his anti-Semitic views.'

Second, did you read this part of the article:-

'Robert Spencer himself, however, has been clear about his stance on the BNP, affirming that the argument for supporting the BNP on the grounds of its anti-Islamist position is no sounder "than the claim that we must support Hizballah because it builds schools and runs charities when not lobbing rockets at Israeli civilians."

These show unequivocally that the first implication was that you unaware of Trifkovic's antisemitism, and when you distanced yourself from it, I alerted the editors.

The second quotation clearly illustrates that you disassociate yourself from the BNP. Yet you continue to believe that I was 'insinuating' that you were a supporter of the BNP.

'Now THAT's ironic. Maybe I should write an article about your dalliances with white supremacism. Anyway, your ad hominem attack against Auster is not a substantive response to my point about the jihad sites' use of these attacks.'

Go ahead and write such an article, but don't expect me to ask the editors of whatever outlet that published it to take down the article.

And, by the way, it's not an 'attack' on you to point out that you frequently make bad calls on allies. By lending support to thuggish organisations such as the EDL, you discredit yourself and give them the fodder to portray you as a crackpot.

I note you still haven't addressed the ties many EDL members have to Ulster Loyalism (quite ironic that you, as a Catholic, should overlook this), football hooliganism and neo-Nazism. When it is so obvious how pervasive this all is in the EDL, why don't you just disavow the EDL? And please don't give the usual BS about 'Leftist infiltrators': I have dealt with this apologetic argument already.

Shocking how you have become to the EDL what Karen Armstrong is to Islamic history.

'You well know I sent you an email about this several days ago. You well know that I told you that to the best of my knowledge the EDL expelled anyone with BNP/neo-Nazi ties, etc.'

Another of your lies, to the contrary. Amusing how you resort to the worst sort of apologia to defend the EDL. 'To the best of my knowledge...': why don't you bother taking a look at the links I provided earlier? These people are all still in the EDL. And to base your claims of the EDL's supposed policy of expulsion without any good evidence beyond the anecdote is pathetic.

Let me ask you: has the EDL expelled Amit Singh, the Sikh poster boy, for his bigoted remarks? Of course not. How about the football hooligans who just like to commit acts of vandalism? What are they still doing in the EDL?

For your information, when exposed in undercover documentaries etc., the BNP ensures to expel those who are exposed as having said or done repugnant things, and Griffin constantly calls them 'Leftist infiltrators', yet you don't take Griffin at his word. Why?

It will be most telling if you fail to answer these tough questions.


'Ánother of your lies...'

Clarification:- I know you sent me an e-mail but your baseless assertions of a supposed policy of expulsion are either incredibly naive on your part or a downright lie you knowingly propogate.

"Negro referred to a person's skin color, whereas Mohammedan implies a follower of Islam. Skin color and religious affiliation are quite different."

Exactly. Muzlims are followers of the Warlord Mohammed. Who invented Islam in the early 7th century AD. Therefore, "Mohammedanism" and "Mohammedans" are entirely correct. There were no Muzlims until the early 7th century AD.

This Muzlim here is a Mohammedan. Following his Warlord's "War is deception" decree. End of story.

So Spencer didn't actually bully anyone to take down the article. It was actually you Mr. al-Tamimi who requested it be taken down, albeit after an email from Spencer stating that he would write a reply. That choice was yours, and it was certainly understandable that without the corrective editing that Spencer would take umbrage to your article. Therefore, there is no "stooping" by Robert Spencer in this instance.

you wrote:
"I did send notification of this update to Larrey Anderson to forward to the editors who worked on my piece. However, in the final version that was published it seems this update was not taken into account."

OK, so if that email was an admission of acknowledgement of a clarification by Spencer, you forwarded it hoping that the article would be updated before being published, not specifically "hold" it?

That statement does of course, verify that the article was submitted prior to any benefit of the doubt in private correspondence with Spencer. It seems you have some issues with the truth Mr. al-Tamimi. Also, the (anonymoous) reference to Auster is embarassing, but it does reflect the same type of ad hominem sniping that Auster offers regularly, out of sheer jealousy of course, and it appears that you are no different in that regard.

"And, by the way, it's not an 'attack' on you to point out that you frequently make bad calls on allies."

OK now, so it wasn't an honest lack of information on this particular instance, but rather a broader attack on Spencer's frequent poorly-chosen allies in general? I will submit this statement to support that there was no good faith on your part in this exchange, and to support that your are simply clamoring for public recognition at the expense of another supposed ally.

Disgraceful.

"Aymenn Jawad al-Tamimi"

Why don't you go and invent something, contribute to the world. All we have from Mohammedans is a bunch of Islamic blather from an illiterate Con Man Warlord pretending to be a prophet.

A Prophet of God isn't a mass-murderer, slave-owner, pedophile, polygamist, thief. And that's your Warlord.

You're so deluded, so brainwashed. Why don't you invent something and contribute to the world? The light bulb would be a good place to start. You know, over a hundred years ago. But the non-invention by Mohammedans is an apt metaphor - DARKNESS. The darkness of Islam.

Spencer banned my previous account and wants to have the last word, having selectively published parts of an exchange I had with him recently, purporting to expose me as a liar. This is absolutely my last post on this blog- ever, and if Spencer does not let this stand, it will say much of his own integrity:-

Wrong email, Spencer, as this only illustrates how I tried to be friendly with you to placate your mad rage. In any case, good luck on having lost yet another friend: keep on hosting articles by your colleague, whom you admire uncritically, calling for a crackdown on Egyptian protestors as happened at Tianenman Square and by all means continue having this site advocate stirring up sectarian tensions in Iraq. But no one will take you seriously habibi:-

From: Aymenn Jawad (aaj892@hotmail.com)

Sent: 06 March 2011 20:20:45

To: thomas@americanthinker.com; Robert Spencer (director@jihadwatch.org)

Hi Thomas,

Thanks for that. I hope this can mark the beginning of a reconciliation process with Robert.

By the way, is my most recent submission on North Korea still under review?

Regards,

Aymenn.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: thomas@americanthinker.com

To: director@jihadwatch.org; aaj892@hotmail.com

CC: anderson.larrey2@gmail.com; drew.belsky@yahoo.com

Subject: replaced Aymenn article with new version

Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 12:01:03 -0800

Gentlemen:

I have just discovered the revised version of the article, which did indeed go through the hands of Larrey and Drew prior to publication. It was my mistake in not noticing and redoing the work of putting it on our server. I have just now substituted the updated version, along with an editorial comment regretting publication of the first version.

I take complete responsibility.

Thomas Lifson, editor

Also:-

From: Aymenn Jawad [mailto:aaj892@hotmail.com]

Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2011 1:05 PM

To: thomas@americanthinker.com

Subject: RE: One more thing

Hi Thomas,

No, the revised version of the piece, which you originally intended to put up and can now be viewed, is fine, as it takes into account the addendum in my last e-mail to you. Thanks. I am sorry that Robert Spencer has turned against you because of my article.

Regards,

Aymenn.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: thomas@americanthinker.com

To: aaj892@hotmail.com

Subject: RE: One more thing

Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 12:51:10 -0800

Hi Aymenn,

Your emails are not getting through to me directly. Sometimes this happens when there are bccs. It was forwarded to me by my associate, who got a copy.

I recently updated your piece with the new manuscript, which I discovered only a short time ago.

Do you want this added at the end of the piece, still?

Thomas

-----Original Message-----

From: Aymenn Jawad

To: American Thinker

Sent: Sun, Mar 6, 2011 9:30 am

Subject: RE: One more thing

Hi Thomas,

Yes. The following end note as an update will do just fine, I think:-

'Fortunately, Spencer did make an important update to his post at Jihad Watch regarding Trifkovic after the above article was initially submitted. He declares unequivocally that he does not endorse Trifkovic's antisemitism, which is reassuring news.'

Aymenn.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: editor@americanthinker.com

To: aaj892@hotmail.com

Subject: RE: One more thing

Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 07:18:05 -0800

Hi Aymenn,

I am sorry for the misunderstanding. Would you be willing to revise the article, including a withdrawal of the offending language?

Thomas

From: Aymenn Jawad [mailto:aaj892@hotmail.com]

Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2011 11:25 AM

To: American Thinker

Subject: RE: One more thing

Hi Thomas,

Owing to the fact that I submitted the article 'Anti-Jihadists and Unholy Alliances' to the American Thinker prior to Spencer's update of http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/02/srdja-trifkovic-author-of-sword-of-the-prophet-barred-from-canada.html (the Jihad Watch post in question) , I did send notification of this update to Larrey Anderson to forward to the editors who worked on my piece. However, in the final version that was published it seems this update was not taken into account. As a result, a terrible misunderstanding has arisen and Spencer now feels that I am out to defame him (as I was away for most of today, I could not immediately respond to his initially legitimate query), and has threatened to write a response unless I ask you to remove the article from the American Thinker. Would you mind removing the article or prefer to leave it in place?

Regards,

Aymenn.

Comment: I am not your servant, Robert, such that I have to stick to complying with your demands to remove the article. Lifson offered a better proposal the next day, and I accepted it.


In addition, here is clear proof that after Lifson put up the revised version as the editors intended at the start Spencer pressured him to remove the article all together:-

Robert Spencer Robert Spencerdirector@jihadwatch.org

TO: Editor, 'larrey anderson', 'Aymenn Jawad', 'Jeanette Colville', 'Drew Belsky'
From: Robert Spencer (director@jihadwatch.org)
Sent: 06 March 2011 20:21:48
To: Editor (editor@americanthinker.com)
Cc: 'larrey anderson' (anderson.larrey2@gmail.com); 'Aymenn Jawad' (aaj892@hotmail.com); 'Jeanette Colville' (frontierhotel@gmail.com); 'Drew Belsky' (drew.belsky@yahoo.com)


Can you simply drop his piece? Is that impossible? I certainly don't think it's unreasonable to ask, in light of its falsity. Then don't run my rebuttal, of course. I didn't turn against the Thinker. The Thinker and Aymenn turned against me. I didn't know these circumstances until just now..

On Mar 6, 2011, at 1:14 PM, Editor wrote: > Dear Robert,> > I apologize for the confusion. > > As I wrote you, Larrey has been gravely ill, hospitalized some of the time> over the past week, and so I never got the information on the article from> him. It is a shame Aymenn communicated directly to him, rather than through> editor@americanthinker.com. In addition, I am suffering the consequences of> a medical treatment regimen, and am unable to work at my normal pace for> about a month in total, roughly 2 more weeks ahead. I took yesterday> afternoon and evening off, as Saturday PM is the only time I have away from> keyboard and monitor all week. Thus, I was unable to respond to you> yesterday, and have been catching up with email this morning at the best> pace I can sustain. Please understand that I get hundreds of emails a day.> > I regret that an earlier version of the article was published instead of the> version apparently sent to Larrey. I have just now taken down the article> from the home page, though it remains on the server. > > I have asked Jeanette to approve all your comments. I would have preferred> that a discussion between the two of you had taken place in the comments> section, but the moderator team apparently thought otherwise. > > If you wish to me run your rebuttal, I will do so right away. However, I> would have to link to and restore the original article in that case.> > If Aymenn will send me the revised version of his article, I will post that.> I never received any such thing from him, nor from Larrey, nor from the> associate editor Drew Belsky, who actually edited the piece for us. If you> wish to have me put into the new article a note to the effect that the> statements about you in the earlier version were false, I will do so if> Aymenn so stipulates in his revised version.> > So my position is that I want to give you what you want, if only I know> which version of the above steps satisfies you. > > I am very sorry that you have turned against American Thinker because of> this. I am guilty of taking some time off on Saturday, and our team has had> difficulty in coping with the illness of a key member, and if that seems an> intolerable affront to you, then I shall have to bear the consequences with> reluctant stoicism. I have attempted to deal with you in good faith at every> stage, and ask you to review my emails in the order they were sent.> > I wish you well and apologize for any anguish that may have been inflicted> by this confusion. > > Thomas Lifson, editor

Why isn't Aymenn Jawad al-Tamimi living in a Muslim country? He likes the West? LOL! Right - who in their right mind would voluntarily reside in an Islamic cesspool in the Muddled East? (Except civilized Israel, of course).

Islam utterly ruined and destroyed the formerly Judeo-Christian Middle East. Ruined and destroyed.

Mohammed is the WORST thing that ever happened to the world.

dumbledoresarmy: Don't forget that many Arab Christians in Jordan, Israel, Lebanon trace their tribal ancestries back to the Ghassanid south Arabians who were Christianized before Islam. This would make them authentically "Arab" (or Arabian in origin) at least.

Putting that aside, I'm curious why Mr al-Tamimi considers himself Iraqi-not-Arab in light of the prestigious and large Arabian tribe in which his surname would signify membership of its bearer.

In any event I think the mere invocation of Spencer and his site in relation to bigotry is an implicit attack on the man himself, explicit disclaimers notwithstanding. If the point being made was irrelevant to Mr Spencer, it could have been made without naming him or his site.

Muslims are the bigots of the world.

Why we even pay attention to these crazies' is unbelievable. Oh I know why - oil.

The only worthwhile thing they have to offer.

Mr. al-Tamimi asserts that the full context of the exchange will vindicate him, though it does exactly the opposite. Sure, it shows the admitted mistakes on the editors at the American Thinker, and it does show Spencer asking, not "bullying", in light of the entire baseless claim of the original article, that it be scapped entirely, that is, the original, the editorial correction, and Spencer's own rebuttal.

What it does not show is why Mr. al-Tamimi even started the ball rolling on this attack on Spencer in the first place. Had Mr. al-Tamimi contacted Spencer directly beforehand, as any purported ally of someone would afford in good faith regarding Spencer's position on certain remarks and sentiments by Mr. Trifkovic, then we most likely not be where we are at all, currently.

Unfortunately that did not happen. Instead, we have Mr. al-Tamimi try to play the "babe-in-the-woods", as if he couldn't and didn't realize that the false charges he was leveling against Spencer, were libelous and potentially very damaging. Also, Mr. al-Tamimi is taking the position that Spencer was overreating to Tamimi's attempted character assisination and total discredit of Spencer and JW. Audacious to say the least.

As the exchange evolved, and by Mr. al-Tamimi's own comments here on this thread, we begin to see the larger picture. We see not only someone trying to backtrack from his slander of Spencer, but a new affirmation that Spencer is guilty of these associations in a much more profound and broader sense by Tamimi's accusation of poorly selected support for the BNP and EDL, which is wholly unfounded in and of itself at this point. In that latter regard, Tamimi would have us declare Spencer guilty without any evidence, until Spencer himself proves otherwise. Audacious to say the least.

Mr. al-Tamimi has now effectively taken his noticably deflated ball and gone home, but I feel that JW will simply have to endure without him.

I for one, see this as an intentional malicious attack on Robert Spencer, to both discredit him and elevate Mr. al-Tamimi simultaneously and nothing I have read to date espouses otherwise. By that, the charges of bad faith posturing and gross opportumism at the wrongful expense of others by Mr. al-Tamimi, still stand.

Indeed. With "friends" like Aymenn Jawad al-Tamimi, well, you know the rest.

Regards.

Aymenn Jawad Al-Tamimi wrote:

Incidentally, I note that many people here have expressed delight at sectarian violence in Iraq as a supposed way to 'divide' the 'Camp of Islam'. Some even encourage the West to provoke such tensions in my homeland. Let me say that, as someone who lost one somewhat distant relative at the hands of Sunni insurgents in 2006, and saw another taken hostage by Al-Qa'ida for three weeks in 2007, and still has much of my family in Baghdad, I find such views to be disgusting, ignorant and offensive.
.............................

Actually, I find such Muslim-on-Muslim violence absolutely appalling, and have said so here many times.

I am terribly sorry about the death of your relative.

It matters little what Infidels such as JW readers think about such matters, though.

Sunni Muslims murdering Shi'ites, mainstream Muslims attacking small-sect Muslims such as the Ahmadi, and Muslims using the handy doctrine of "Takfir" to declare other Muslims "insufficiently Islamic" hardly need Kaffirs to egg them on.

They have, sadly, followed such a pattern for almost 1400 years now.

"Horse" wrote:

aymen jawad, you should be aware that dumbledoresarmy, and a large contigent of others on here, are not just against islam, they are against Arabs.

They have voiced racist views on the arab race, essentially blaming all of islam on arabs and claim its "arab imperialism".
..........................

Absolute lies and calumny. Dumbledore's Army has noted—along with many others—that Islam itself has a strong element of Arab supremacism in its creeds. But this is intrinsic to *Islam*, and in no way to *Arabs*. Your statement presents an exact inversion of the truth.

No one is less racist than Dumbledore's Army, who's sympathy extends to people of every ethnic background. Moreover, she has lauded such Arabs as Brigitte Gabriel and Nonie Darwish here many times.

More from "Horse":

They have denied the existence of christian arabs in palestine, syria, and jordan, despite the fact that i know some of them and they are definetly arab, and not "Arabdized" assyrians.
..........................

Absolute rot. Numerous people here have, in fact, noted the threatened status of such Christian Arabs under Islam. The Jihad Watch archives are full of such stories.

Yet More:

They want to ban arab immigration into western countries, and stir hatred between arab christans and arab muslims.
..........................

Again, utter crap. If there is "hatred" stirred between Muslim and Christian Arabs, it may have something to do with the fact that the Levant is fast being cleansed of its Christian population by the aggressions of Islam, and not by the sympathetic posters at JW.

And indeed it did turn out to be shades Of Charles, after all. In spades

London Jim

you wrote, re the use of the term 'Mohammedan'

"I choose to use the word 'Muhammedanism' in place of 'Islam', because I bear no credence to the claims of Muhammed as to being the 'seal of the prophets' blah blahblah. . I differentiate between those seeking some simple divinity, and those who would follow in Muhammed's footsteps to rob, murder, rape plagarize and worse, say that it was ordained".

I would probably say 'Islam' rather than Mohammedanism, but I quite often use the term 'Mohammedan'.

As a Maoist to Mao, and a Stalinist to Stalin, so a Mohammedan is to Mohammed: someone who imitates the founder of his belief-system or ideology or philosophy, and seeks to perpetuate and live by the teachings of that founder.

'Mohammedan' is just easier to say than 'Mohammedist'...

This thread reads like so much spam!

look, as I noted in the thailand discussion we were having, "some" arabs, like those from the hadraumaut in Yemen are supremacist and when they moved into malaysia they took malay women as wives but refused to allow arab women to marry non arabs, both malays and arabs are muslims and that had nothing to do with Islam and everything to do with racism.

Racism should not be hurled back at people when it is leveled at others. Yemeni arabs share a particular extremely mercantile culture, they took up alot of trade in southeast asia and were aggresive, but apparently their commerce skills vanished after british colonization.

Other arabs like Omanis are laid back and friendly to foreigners. They ban all their own citizens, male and female, from marrying non arab non citizens, so its fair both ways, and you probably heard from some westerners who stayed in Oman in this blog since they are known for their hospitality.

and the "m-word" is extremely offensive, you are abusing the prophets name and you will gain no friends among anyone for using it, you will find that the hospitality of a people like the Omani Arabs will vanish if you hurl that slur at them.

I thought long and hard about a response to you "Horse" here, based on you latest comment.

What I arrived at is simply: "Fuck You".

I despise everything you stand for, worshipping that pedophile as your perfect example of emulation, per the Qur'an 33:21. Murder, rape, pedophilia...all the best of bsic human instincts I am sure.

I don't know what else there is to say, except that the greater the pride, the harder the fall.

You're now marked here at JW. Take that as a threat and a promise, both. Think up a new moniker, for that one is sure to perish, like your prophet, unwittingly killed by poison, by a Jewish concubine. *snickers.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahha!

God has surely smiled on that event. Sorry I just could not help myself.

Can you imagine if that was the story and "end" of Christ? That's laughable, as are you, and as are the rest of you Arabic, Mohammed-loving, sand peons. *snickering again.

Good luck. You're gonna need it. :)

very odd that someone who tries to fight against anti semitism and anti arab racism immeditely gets marked out as muslim.

I responded to two comments by the white supremacist Cesar Torte, who suggests jews were responsible for communism and mass murder, by defending Jews, and i noted his anti semitism. Cesar Torte's profile and links link to an "aryan" white supremacist movement advocating the creating of an all white state somewhere in the USA.

it says Northwest Front at http://profile.typepad.com/cesartort

at - northwestfront.org

The Northwest Front is a political organization of Aryan men and women who recognize that an independent and sovereign White nation in the Pacific Northwest ....

Then I took note of anti arab sentiment here at this blog, which i provided links too, even congragulating Aymenn for being an atheist.

Oddly, without having said a single thing about my religion, i'm immediatly marked out as muslim, since I say that Arabs should not be racially attacked, and all the guys above said to me that the arab race had no bearing on Islam. do you have ESP powers or something? I'm awfully frightened of it......

http://northwestfront.org/

And I have not once stated my religion. I only said i was part of the Hui group, although that means "muslim" in chinese, they can also be atheist as well. Go take a stroll in part of China and you will find several muslim atheists, who identify with religion culturally.

Hui are descended from a variety of people, arabs or persians who mixed with chinese, chinese who converted to islam and mixed with them, and jews in China who converted to Islam.

The same as if an atheist from europe would take offence at other people insulting his culture, saying bad things about christmas.

And I will not state my religious affiliation anywhere on this blog, I will stick to asian related topics, and i Take great offence at some people who want to generate hatred between asian peoples, such as DDA who said that Thailand should kick out all muslims, even though only malays are the one who are committing terrorist acts and Hui and Thai muslims aren't

i take serious offence at people saying "hui people should be watched". in asian countries, no one gives a flying **** about peoples religion, unless your a communist, being a muslim or a christian, it doesn't matter. But then, I see some westerners who have no idea about asia suggest that non muslim Asians boot muslims out of their country.

I will continue to criticize Anti semites just i have done here. Anti semitism is illogical hatred and racism.

i congragulated aymenn for his atheism

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/03/responding-to-a-friendly-fire-attack.html#comment-765169

Over here, twice, i defend Jews against anti semitic accusations by Cesor Torte-

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/03/responding-to-a-friendly-fire-attack.html#comment-765184

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/03/responding-to-a-friendly-fire-attack.html#comment-765192

here i speak of Arab christians

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/03/responding-to-a-friendly-fire-attack.html#comment-765177

Can you talk civillly without cursing?

For the record, i am really an agnostic, if you really want to know, but i don't doubt that i'm going to get hit with 100 comments saying i'm practicing "taquiyya".

and talk about calling me "sand peon" when im not arab.

I defended Jews from anti semitic remarks, and attempt to discuss racism towards arabs and i get a profanity laced tirade flung at me.

Robert Spencer talks in a civilized manner- I'm suprised your profanity is allowed to pass

Interesting comment by Moharebeh i found here directed at you-

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/09/please-bring-flags-not-signs-to-the-911-rally-against-the-islamic-supremacist-mega-mosque-at-ground.html#comment-704486

"Or else...put up, instead of rightfully shutting up.


I may agree with you on the topic of Islam, but I think you are a confrontational troll who should have been banned from the site the last time you decided to unleash a profanity loaded tirade. The last time you even threatened another member here with violence.

I really don't think the anti-Islam movement needs arrogant, pugnacious thugs like you. It would only hurt the cause."

This is me-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Muslim

Insults directed at religious muslims are just as offensive to muslim atheists and agnostics.

Again I am late in this discussion, please forgive

I cannot pass this by as it is so important to me.

But first can I thank the person who made the reference to horse shit above. That was indeed apt.

I have never heard this chap before, this Aymenn Jawad al-Tamimi, but he bears a passing resemblance to many of those I fought against who were supporting the NATO war on the Serbs in the 1990s.

The reason this is so important to me is that I am committed to defending people who come under attack from reactionary sources.

Robert Spencer and others have opened up the debate on the issue of the real nature of Islam and I am committed to defending people like Robert Spencer so that this debate can continue into the future

My small and late contribution centres on that.

In this situation of deepening crisis it is to be expected that there are major provocations against the most advanced sections

It is important to recognise these attacks for what they are and to create a defence, while at the same time carrying forward the discussion

The first angle of attack which our friend Aymenn Jawad al-Tamimi makes is against the Serbs. The basis of this attack when you strip everything away and even if he does not mention it here is that Izetbegovic was a peaceful and a moderate Muslim leader. Everything that Blair and Clinton did in the Balkans was based on that, which was a lie. He is part of this lie. This lie involved the deliberate hiding of two things

1. The actual words of Izetbegovic as contained in the notorious Islamic Declaration
2. The actual history of Izetbegovic and here we can merely at a very minimum point out that Izetbegovic was deeply involved in the Holocaust of Jews, Serbs and Romany in the Balkans. Izetbegovic was a member of the Muslim Brotherhood during the War Years, and in the Holocaust years, and was a joint membership of the Muslim Brotherhood in the Balkans during those Holocaust years

These are the two facts that have been uncovered about Izetbegovic, and which have been carefully hidden by the Media and by a large section of Academia, and other scoundrels such as Oliver Kamm, and I am presuming by this person also

I am assuming that this person, who Robert Spencer has claimed here to be a lair, has also been part of the Big Lie concerning Izetbegovic, where he has in the past hidden from the public, American, European and Arab people, the terrible legacy of Hajj Amin el Husseini in the Holocaust, and with it the very close connection of Izetbegovic with Hajj Amin el Husseini in that Holocaust.

You get my point.

This man is lecturing people on this site about not being antisemitic.

Yet I will bet you that he has been part of the Oliver Kamm crowd around Harry´s Place which has striven to hide the real nature of Izetbegovic.

All part of their hatred of Serbs and their backing of the Empire/Sharia war on the Serbs

Over to him!


A small corrrection in the above. I left out an important name

In 2 above I wrote

Izetbegovic was a member of the Muslim Brotherhood during the War Years, and in the Holocaust years, and was a joint membership of the Muslim Brotherhood in the Balkans during those Holocaust years

Please understand that this should have read that Izetbegovic was a joint member of the Muslim Brotherhood along with Hajj Amin el Husseini DURING THOSE CRITICAL HOLOCAUST YEARS.

This is a fact of enormous importance. Of such importance in fact that Oliver Kamm wrote reams trying to deny that Izetbegovic was involved in the Holocaust.

Kamm who is essentially a bully used the resources of blogs like Harry's Place to try to destroy a blogger called Neil Clark

But in fact they were joint members of the Muslim Brotherhood during those critical years, a fact that on 4international we managed to prove, using material from the Canadian Young Muslim organization, printed on the death of Izetbegovic

I have written further on this, and it was conjecture in this case. I reasoned (as a conjecture but I think an intelligent conjecture)that since Bosnia was/is really not that huge a place, and that there were likely very few members of the Muslim Brotherhood then there, that Izetbegovic and Hajj Amin el Husseini must have been working together closely in the Balkans.

That is working closely together in the carrying out of the Holocaust, associated also with Hitler and Himmler etc

Knowing all of this the sheer arrogance of this man who is attacking on the issue of antisemitism and racism is breathtaking

I'm a rare poster, but fairly frequent reader of this site as well as Trifkovic's work.

Trifkovic is not an antisemite. I do however very much disagree with his statement, "Jews have had a disproportionate impact on a host of intellectual trends and political movements which have fundamentally altered the civilization of Europe and its overseas offspring in a manner deeply detrimental to the family, nation, culture, racial solidarity, social coherence, tradition, morality and faith."

Jews don't even have the power to get any Western media to tell the truth about the Muslim-Nazi alliance of WWII, or to get the US State Department to stop slandering Jewish landowners ('settler') or to stop trying to ethnically cleanse Jews from the Jewish homeland.

Trifkovic should be ashamed that he would make such a bold statement, while ignoring the incredible impotence of Jews on the world stage. Jews can't even get US media to stop using Jews (under the guise of 'neocons') as a scapegoat for pro-Islamist Western/Nato imperialism.

But again: Trifkovic's work is by and large good.

Here's what I do know for certain: I've been banned umpteen times on Chronicles for telling the truth, both about Jews an about Serbs, and about the US government's lies about both. Other than Trifkovic, Chronicles is very much like a dressed up and respectable Stormfront. Rabid antisemitism is worked into almost every article by: Fleming, Buchanan, PC Roberts (the latter two being former/current State Department operatives).

Most recently I was banned from posting on an article pertaining to Muslims in Egypt killing Christians, and both the author and the bevy of Stormfront-like minions were blaming the Jews(!).

I've never seen any of this from Robert Spencer. Never seen any trickery or deceit.

Trifkovic has gotten into bed with the slime of Chronicles. It's likely leading to a degradation in the quality of his work, and seems to be resulting in this 'kedja' like discord and virtual war.

Regarding people that make reference to Russian atheist Jews that do evil things--this is moronic. It's interesting to see the morons that hate pious Jews, that hate torah-motivated Jews, and *want* Jews to hellenize and become rabid antisemites--and then they use the deeds of these 'Jews' they've created to rationalize their Jewhate.

I'm a rare poster, but fairly frequent reader of this site as well as Trifkovic's work.

Trifkovic is not an antisemite. I do however very much disagree with his statement, "Jews have had a disproportionate impact on a host of intellectual trends and political movements which have fundamentally altered the civilization of Europe and its overseas offspring in a manner deeply detrimental to the family, nation, culture, racial solidarity, social coherence, tradition, morality and faith."

Jews don't even have the power to get any Western media to tell the truth about the Muslim-Nazi alliance of WWII, or to get the US State Department to stop slandering Jewish landowners ('settler') or to stop trying to ethnically cleanse Jews from the Jewish homeland.

Trifkovic should be ashamed that he would make such a bold statement, while ignoring the incredible impotence of Jews on the world stage. Jews can't even get US media to stop using Jews (under the guise of 'neocons') as a scapegoat for pro-Islamist Western/Nato imperialism.

But again: Trifkovic's work is by and large good.

Here's what I do know for certain: I've been banned umpteen times on Chronicles for telling the truth, both about Jews an about Serbs, and about the US government's lies about both. Other than Trifkovic, Chronicles is very much like a dressed up and respectable Stormfront. Rabid antisemitism is worked into almost every article by: Fleming, Buchanan, PC Roberts (the latter two being former/current State Department operatives).

Most recently I was banned from posting on an article pertaining to Muslims in Egypt killing Christians, and both the author and the bevy of Stormfront-like minions were blaming the Jews(!).

I've never seen any of this from Robert Spencer. Never seen any trickery or deceit.

Trifkovic has gotten into bed with the slime of Chronicles. It's likely leading to a degradation in the quality of his work, and seems to be resulting in this 'kedja' like discord and virtual war.

Regarding people that make reference to Russian atheist Jews that do evil things--this is moronic. It's interesting to see the morons that hate pious Jews, that hate torah-motivated Jews, and *want* Jews to hellenize and become rabid antisemites--and then they use the deeds of these 'Jews' they've created to rationalize their Jewhate.

In the above in answer to a question on Bosnia Aymenn writes:

'I know that Trifkovic has said he thinks the Bosnian Serbs were initially attacked and victimized by a Jihad conducted by the Muslim Bosnians. Is that what you say is a despicable view?'
Yes, because it's pure pseudo-history. The overwhelming majority of atrocities were committed by Serbs against Bosniaks and Croats aimed at cleansing them from mixed areas. That does not mean romanticising the Serb militias' opponents like the Kosovo Liberation Army and their share of atrocities, but pointing out that the Bosnian War was a case of Serb aggression is not jihadist propaganda. I find it amusing that pseudo-historical views on this conflict are also a hallmark of the far-left.

Yes, because it's pure pseudo-history.


The overwhelming majority of atrocities were committed by Serbs against Bosniaks and Croats aimed at cleansing them from mixed areas.


That does not mean romanticising the Serb militias' opponents like the Kosovo Liberation Army and their share of atrocities,


but pointing out that the Bosnian War was a case of Serb aggression is not jihadist propaganda.


I find it amusing that pseudo-historical views on this conflict are also a hallmark of the far-left.

(end of Aymenn)

So was it a Jihad on the part of the Bosnian Muslims or was it not?

But Aymenn leaves out of this question the leadership of the Bosnian Muslims, who was without any doubt Izetbegovic.

And he calls any suggestion that it was a Jihad against Christian Serbs "pseudo history"

But he ignores Izetbegovic and the views of Izetbegovic.

That was actually the whole line of the Media, BBC, and of the Clinton Government, and of the whole of the western governments. They set out to hide the past of Izetbegovic.

Of course history has gifted us with the most precise record of the political views of Izetbegovic. they are contained in the islamic Declaration.

But before looking up the Islamic Declaration ask yourself what really that was all about and you will find the answer below. There you will find a man holding up the head of a Serb, and this happened in our lifetime, and at a time when all of the Media and all of the Jewish organizations were defending thhe Jihad against the Serbs

You will find te caption underneath that picture reads the following, and not e there is precision in identity, which was a feature of all the Serb writing:

Previous photo enlarged. The head of a Serb, Blagoje Blagojevic, held by an Arab Saudi/Afghan ‘Jihad’ fighter in Crni Vrh, Bosnia, 1992.

What was an Arab doin in Bosnia cuttin the heads off Serbs, in our lifetime, and holdin thhe head of the unfortunate victim up in the air, like a trophy. From where did this barbarity come and there were many, many others:

http://4international.wordpress.com/2008/02/15/the-real-srebrenica-genocide-the-mass-murder-of-serbs-in-srebrenica-and-gorazde/

It is a long article, with many pictures, but you will find this particular picture fairly close to the top

Reading further on that 4international article, and just below the picture of thhe Arab holding the head of the Serb in the air, like a savage hunter of tigers, we see the following written:


Previous 3 photos above) Alija Izetbegovic’s 10,000 strong Islamist fundamentalist “El Mujahedeen Unit” in Zenica, Bosnia on parade with green banners on their heads which read: “Our path is the Jihad” written in Arabic script.

See related articles,“Moderate Democrat or Radical Islamist? Who is Alija Izetbegovic, the man the US sponsored in Bosnia?”
http://www.hirhome.com/yugo/ihralija1.htm

“What really happened in Bosnia? Were the Serbs the criminal aggressors, as the official story claims, or were they the victims?”
http://www.hirhome.com/yugo/ihralija1.htm

“How the U.S. & Iran have Cooperated to Sponsor Muslim Terror(and this while loudly denouncing one another in public)”
http://emperors-clothes.com/analysis/deja.htm


And having had a look at that material you will notice that down below those pictures there is a picture of Bill Clinton, head bowed, hands joined, in front of a monument with names on the monument in Arabic, and the question is asked about this picture:

"What is this monument inscribed in Arabic script doing in Srebrenica (Potocari village), Bosnia? What is ex-president of the United States, Bill Clinton, doing here at the unveiling of this Arabic-inscribed monument dedicated to fallen al Qaeda Mujahedeen fighters in Srebrenica-Potocari, Bosnia? Why is Clinton bowing to this monument?

For the answers to these disturbing questions, see the articles

“Clinton opens a monument dedicated to Al Qaeda fighters and bows to it!”
http://www.srpska-mreza.com/Bosnia/Srebrenica/AlQaeda.html

“Srebrenica Controversy Becomes Increasingly Politicized and Ethnically Divisive, Increasing Pressure on Peacekeepers” http://128.121.186.47/ISSA/reports/Balkan/Sep1903.htm


“Bosnian Official Links With Terrorism, Including 9/11, Become Increasingly Apparent as Clinton, Clark Attempt to Justify Support of Bosnian Militants”
http://128.121.186.47/ISSA/reports/Balkan/Sep1703.htm

“US Official Implicated With Bosnian High Representative Ashdown in Attempting to Force Fabricated Report on Srebrenica” at:http://128.121.186.47/ISSA/reports/Balkan/Sep0803.htm

Note in the above it says a monument to Al Qaida fighters/terrorists.


And this brings us into the present in a rather acute manner in so far as the work of Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer in opposing the Rauf Mosque on Ground Zero is concerned

Because of course the origins of the attack on the Twin Towers come from the Jihad itself in Bosnia, as this comment below the Clinton picture makes clear:

"The unveiling of the monument would be attended by former US Pres. William Clinton, and “finalizing” the Srebrenica case would help stop the ongoing wave of allegations of illegal Clinton Administration activity in supporting radical Islamist activities in Bosnia during the 1990s.

This is particularly critical given the fact that a significant number of the Islamist terrorists involved in the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks on the United States had strong links into the Bosnian Muslims whom Clinton had supported.

The US Embassy in Sarajevo donated $1-million to the construction of the “shrine”, even though all proper investigations of the Srebrenica affair in fact showed the Islamists’ claims to be unsubstantiated and, in many respects, without foundation at all.

Recent information emerging from Bosnia-Herzegovina, and particularly from the RS investigations into the Srebrenica affair and other aspects of terrorism in the region, have highlighted the fact that the Clinton Administration had, during the war, facilitated the Islamist terrorist activities because of the Clinton Administration’s need to demonize the Serbs in order to provide a casus belli for US-led military actions in the area to distract from domestic US political problems. Significantly, when the Muslim representatives involved in building the “shrine” in Srebrenica approached New York Mayor Michael Blumberg to establish a sister-city relationship with New York, the Mayor refused, based on intelligence showing the link between the Bosnian Islamists and the al-Qaida attacks on his city"


http://4international.wordpress.com/2008/02/15/the-real-srebrenica-genocide-the-mass-murder-of-serbs-in-srebrenica-and-gorazde/


Clinton, and all of the American parties including the Rebublicans, the latter big time, who supported this Jihad against the Serbs, were thus highly responsible for the Al Qaida attacks on the Twin Towers

That should be brought into the film screenings on the opposition to the Rauf Mosque that geller and Spencer are sponsoring...I mean it should be brought in as a central feature


This is really why I have taken to referring to the present set-up in the world as the Empire/Sharia alliance

To talk only about Islam or Sharia is very misleading. The key issue to stress is that it is the ALLIANCE between Empire and Sharia thhat is doing the damage

Aymenn calls this phoney history

But if you want to understand the political thought of a figure like Hitler then go to Mein Kamph

If you want to understand the political movement which grew up in Bosnia in the 1990s then go to The Islamic Declaration of Izetbegovic

The genuine reader on Jihadwatch needs to go to the following article from which this excerpt comes:

""... The shortest definition of the Islamic order defines it as a unity of faith and law, upbringing and force, ideals and interests, spiritual community and state, free will and force. As a synthesis of these components, the Islamic order has two fundamental premises: an Islamic society and Islamic authority. The former is the essence, and the latter the form of an Islamic order. An Islamic society without Islamic power is incomplete and weak; Islamic power without an Islamic society is either a utopia or violence.

A Muslim generally does not exist as an individual. If he wishes to live and survive as a Muslim, he must create an environment, a community, an order. He must change the world or be changed himself. History knows of no true Islamic movement which was not at the same time a political movement as well. This is because Islam is a faith, but also a philosophy, a set of moral codes, an order of things, a style, an atmosphere - in a nutshell, an integral way of life. ..."

page 19


Yes it is dark and deep stuff, but revealing

Read it all:

http://www.srpska-mreza.com/library/facts/alija.html


Note that Izetbegovic says that Islamic Society is the Essence, but Islamic Power is the Form


Islamic Power...that is what Izetbegovic was after in Bosnia in the Balkans in our time

And he kind of got it. It was that degree of POWER that Izetbegovic set up in Bosnia that enabled Al Qaida to set up a base there, and from that base to set in motions the cogs that would lead to the Twin Towers terror attack led by Atta.

In order to have that POWER the Serbs had to be crushed.

But it was rather more than just a physical crushing, along with the knife there was the black propaganda against the Serbs, and since the British Black Tabloid press does not understand concepts such as The Serbs (WHO THEY?) then it had to be personalised. And it was then personalised by this Black Media Machine around the demonization of Slobodan Milosevic, just as a fortnight ago these savages campaigned against Mubarak, who the Black Media told us was spiriting 80 billions out of Egypt, soon to change to 3 billions, now dropped, and now the whole circus goes after Gadaffi. And indeed there is a lesser Media War being launched against Pamela Geller by such as Media matters dot org, but it is all part of the same cloth

He and they could not do it on their own. But they were pushing on an open door as far as the Democrats and the Republicans were concerned, ditto all the Governments of EUrabia, and we see the same happening in every country today, Europe, America, North Africa, LIBYA!

It is a tragedy that Aymenn and his folk are still telling these lies against the Serbs, and are claiming the high ground in discussions like this, claiming that they are against antisemitism and racism, when in fact they are the greatest promoters of same.

They will continue to do this until people like Geller and Spencer will place the Empire/Sharia destruction of Yugoslavia, and the present destruction of Libya by the same Empire/Sharia alliance at the centre of their agitational work against Islam in America

"Robert Spencer talks in a civilized manner- I'm suprised your profanity is allowed to pass."

You are of course responding to awake's above comment:

"I thought long and hard about a response to you "Horse" here, based on you latest comment.

What I arrived at is simply: 'Fuck You'." -- awake

The comment expressed by awake is of course unbefitting of Robert, and is unbefitting for general use on JW; and oftentimes comments that contain the 'f' word are removed STAT, so I am somewhat surprised that awake's foul language remains intact.

But ...

I also happen to agree with his overall message; and IMO, a better response to you might have been, "Fuck islam and company". But that isn't what he said, instead he chose to curse you singularly, and not islam as a collective whole.

Awake's message is true, because islam is to be wholly hated - for it is wholly evil. His unfortunate choice of words instead gave the impression that YOU are to be hated, so on that point I would disagree with awake - or at least on the surface I would disagree with him, since YOU are part of a collective group of men and women either following or supporting islam; and whether you are a practicing muslim, or not, is irrelevant, since you obviously and firmly support islam and company even as a supposed "agnostic". Sorry, but that doesn't square with basic commone sense.

So on the surface I don't believe in cursing someone directly, or attacking them personally, but I do believe in attacking their evil ideologies and practices.

I understand awake's fury with supporters of islam, but foul language oftentimes proves to be unproductive, since it tends to eclipse the more important message - which is what he wrote here:

"I despise everything you stand for, worshipping that pedophile as your perfect example of emulation, per the Qur'an 33:21. Murder, rape, pedophilia...all the best of bsic human instincts I am sure.

I don't know what else there is to say, except that the greater the pride, the harder the fall.

You're now marked here at JW. Take that as a threat and a promise, both. Think up a new moniker, for that one is sure to perish, like your prophet, unwittingly killed by poison, by a Jewish concubine. *snickers.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahha!

God has surely smiled on that event. Sorry I just could not help myself.

Can you imagine if that was the story and "end" of Christ? That's laughable, as are you, and as are the rest of you Arabic, Mohammed-loving, sand peons. *snickering again.

Good luck. You're gonna need it. :)"

I mean no one can disagree with THAT part of his comment ...except for you, of course. And you never addressed this part of his comment, so what gives with THAT?

Hey islam and company ARE wholly evil - beginning, but not ending with, muhammad (perdition is upon him).

BTW, Horseshit would be a better moniker for you, since grasping and presenting the truth is not what you're about.


#1 i never said i was a muslim before awake commented on this thread

#2 i was defending Jews from nasty anti semitic accusations regarding them by Cesar Tort and genocide in the Soviet union, and praising aymenn for being an atheist when Awake came up with his insult. It appears, that he assumes defending Jews entails having islamophobic slurs hurled at you. I was deeply offended by Cesar Tort's antisemitism, it appears that Awake apparently agrees with Cesar since he lobbed an insult at me but said nothing to Cesar.

#3 go back and read my comments, since you apparently didn't see what i just mentioned above

For all the snoops out there:

My opinions are my own. Mr Spencer need not agree with everything I say for my comments to be here, do they?

As for the BNP, what's wrong with them? White people need advocacy groups too, and not the KKK and such. It's OK for there to be other-race-only groups ... and blacks and others can state that they want their own countries, and people will nod vigorously and agree. I say white atheists need their own country, as we seem to be highly despised (and even others here blanket atheists as the reason for the Muslim problem). And I'm sorry, but England has always been traditionally white - not black, yellow, or Paki. Whites are told they aren't welcome in certain countries, but I guess that's OK? But don't tell anyone they can't come to our countries.

As for my other comments, well, many people say they like to make hamburger out of sacred cows. I shoot bigger. I like to make soylent green out of sacred humans.

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Not Peace But A Sword by Robert SpencerDid Muhammad Exist? The Muslim Brotherhood in America, by Robert SpencerIslamophobia: Thoughtcrime of the Totalitarian FutureMuslim Persecution of Christians, by Robert Spencer Obama and IslamThe Ground Zero Mosque: Second Wave of the 9/11 Attacks
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What they’re saying about Robert Spencer
“My comrade-in-arms, my pal, my buddy.”
Oriana Fallaci

“Robert Spencer incarnates intellectual courage when, all over the world, governments, intellectuals, churches, universities and media crawl under a hegemonic Universal Caliphate’s New Order. His achievement in the battle for the survival of free speech and dignity of man will remain as a fundamental monument to the love of, and the self-sacrifice for, liberty.”
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“A national treasure...The acclaimed scholar of Islam.”
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“A top American analyst of Islam....A serious scholar...I learn from him.”
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“A brilliant scholar and writer.”
Douglas Murray

"One of my best teachers."
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“Thank God there’s at least one man with balls left in the West.”
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“I read people like [Mark Steyn] and Bob Spencer and the rest of them, and I say, ‘Boortz, you’re pretending you’re an author. These people really are. They really write some entertaining, some standup stuff.’”
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Khaleel Mohammed

“The Likud anti-Christ.”
Dar al-Hayat newspaper (Saudi Arabia)

“Zionist Crusader, missionary of hate, counter-Islam consultant.”
Al-Qaeda’s Adam Gadahn, “Azzam the American”



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