Spencer, Shoebat, Jasser: Can Islam be reformed?

Could Nazism be "reformed?"

Would a Nazism that did not regard Jews, Slavs, Gypsies, gays, etc as lesser creatures still be Nazism??

http://newstime.co.nz/video-the-muslim-war-against-the-west-sabaton-primo-victoria.html
Video: The Muslim war against the West – Sabaton “Primo Victoria“

There is only ONE Quran: “…There is only ONE Islam” (open in a new window)
Dr. Wafa Sultan (ex-Muslim) Arab-American Psychologist

“Understanding Muhammad” Page 254 …Time is running out. If Isalm is not defeated fast, we will be facing a future that will make the horrors of World War II look likes child’s play.

Islam is an epidemic of mental illness bequeathed from one man to his entire followers. This psychosis attaching itself to “God” makes the most vicious threat against humanity that we have ever seen. Failure to see that threat and stop it soon, can result in the greatest calamity mankind has ever seen….

Page 259 …Isn’t it better to wage this war through dialogue than wait and fight it with bombs? Isn’t Neville Chamberlain’s legacy of appeasement of Adolf Hitler and Nazi Germany with his signing of the Munich Agreement in 1938, conceding Czechoslovakia to Hitler enough to know that we must never bend to the demands of bullies?….

Reforming a religion is 'changing it'...What was that Mahound said about people who 'change' their religion, from Islam to something else? A reformed Islam is something else...
It is claimed that Allah is perfect, the Quran is perfect, his messenger was perfect, so Islam is perfect...Why would anyone want to reform perfectness? Is it even possible?
In order to 'reform' Islam, parts of Allah's words have to be altered or ignored...Is there a Mahoundian who is willing to do that? And which Mahoundian or even group of Mahoundians have the Islamic authority to alter Islam, so that all Mahoundians will agree and comply? Which Mahoundian is going to look Allah in his one big eye and say, 'I didn't like some of the things you wrote in your book (Quran), so I changed some of them and will ignore others'...Is there any pious Mahoundian who will risk Allah's wrath and loose his place in Paradise?
The brave reformer better hope Allah is in a good mood...He hardly ever is unless you catch him right after morning coffee...

Jasser's position sounds to me like the Mutazilite historical position where they claimed that Reason was superior to Revelation and if your Reason has a problem with a Revelation you should go with your Reason. Sounds good to me.

Unfortunately that historical debate didn't end too well for the Mutazilites, to the extent that they no longer hold any meaningful influence in the Islamic world. Maybe Jasser will be able to revive the Mutazilite position in the Islamic world.

I doubt it but wish him well.

Can izlum be reformed?

no, no, no, and HELL NO!

For exactly the reasons duh swami gave above

And by the end of the day..... You will find that you still can't teach that old dog new tricks.

So how do you do that?

Zudhi is an enigma. And a dangerous one at that, because he brings the explosive proposition that, on balance and as a net value, Islam and Moslems are anything good.

*** Tabari 1:267 ***

And Allah taught Adam all the names as follows: He taught him the name of everything, down to fart and little fart.

You put Zudhi up against the best Logic 101 classroom in the world, and with his convoluted reasoning he'd systematically grind them down to stroke victims.

*** Bukhari Vol 1 Bk 4 Nbr 174 ***

During the lifetime of Mohammed, dogs used to urinate and pass through the mosques, nevertheless they never used to sprinkle water on the dog urine.

Say, maybe Islam can be reformed after all. Either Mohammed wasn't such a bad guy... or he liked the scent of dog piss. Either way, there's room for reform.

I can only repeat my previous post: Islam can't be reformed.
I have great sympathy for Mr Jasser. He seems to be a very noble person, intelligent and civilized, who only happened to have Muslim roots but inwardly is more of a Westerner. It's very understandable that he loves his heritage and tries to ennoble it; and most people will wish him success in his endeavors; but most likely his appeal will only produce response from a limited number of intellectuals, which constitute a very-very thin layer - film, actually - in the Islamic society. People in the Islamic world live in a historical time which is different from ours. Education has not much value there (also in terms of salary). Besides, there's such a phenomena as Youth Bulge or "excess in especially young adult male population (which) predictably leads to social unrest, war and terrorism, as the "third and fourth sons" that find no prestigious positions in their existing societies rationalize their impetus to compete by religion or political ideology." (term introduced by a German scientist Gunnar Heinsohn). Violence and agression is exactly what young (and also not-so-young) Muslims find attractive. I'm sure if such a peaceful version of Islam, which Mr Jasser tries to promote, ever emerges, most Muslims will reject it.

We are at war with Islam, period. I suggest JW's watch the following video:
http://kitmantv.blogspot.com/2011/03/bruce-thornton-wages-of-appeasement.html?utm_source=BP_recent
It makes perfectly clear what path we are heading down by appeasing Islam.

In a word, No.

The "faith" is already close, or at, it's roots, how can it be "reformed"?

To say it needs to be reformed is saying there is a aspect to it that has fallen away from the pure path, and has been hijacked, or somthing to that effect. That has only happened
in Oz, the news media, or former leaders of the U.S., to name a few of the many that hold to that idea.

Deformed is a better term, a new sect of islam is closer to what will be had by any reform in the end. The same results as the other, minor sects of islam, unbelievers.

And Jaser holds to the idea of raising his kids as true muslims, whay would he want that for a faith that needs reformed?

Jihadist doctrine and oppressive Shari'ah reformation can be achieved. However, it would have to come about as a generational weaning process and overcome, oppositional fundamentalist violence. Muslims must also be both united and resolute to this end.

I've said it before, Political Islam and it's religious elitists employ Jihad and perpetuate Shari'ah in order to control it's followers. They do so, to influence, gain power and aquire wealth. A realization of exploitation, the average Muzlim is starting to be aware of, more than ever before.

The Martin Luther of the Islamic reformation may not be over the next hill, but Muhammad, one day, may be forced to come to the mountain, after all.

While I hear Jasser often saying what needs to be weeded out of Islam, I never hear Jasser explaining what is good about Islam. In other words, why does he think it needs to be salvaged at all? What recommends it? The closest he seemed to come in this segment to saying what is good about Islam is when he said vaguely that Muhammed was a man of “compassion integrity and honesty.” Huh? He was a mass-murdering, lying, stealing, pedophilic warlord. Can you expand on that Jasser? Denying reality is not ‘reform,’ and it’s certainly not something that endorses an ideology.

Alarmed Pig Farmer was right on the money about Jasser's lack of logic. The way he talks any muslim can interpret the Koran any way they want in which case you would have a billion versions of Islam. Whatever you call that it isn't a religion.

He claims that we "can't separate history from religion" and then he makes up his own version of the history of Mohammed. He doesn't believe the prophet said this or he doesn't believe the prophet said that. He doesn't believe Mohammad was a pedophile but all the rest of the Islamic world does and they follow his example. Talk about historical revisionism.

But by far the most disgusting thing he said was that the treatment of women was okay for the Middle Ages but it isn't appropriate today. The barbaric treatment of women was okay? Dr. Jasser is delusional, living in a fantasy world that exists only in his mind.

Well, if reform of Islam is impossible, totally improbable, what is the strategy of the Anti-Islam-Pro-Democracy-people going to be?

It can't be resignation to submission. And the vast majority of citizens don't want to turn violent against Muslims if that can be avoided at all.

Even stopping immigration of Muslims is very difficult, what with streams of refugees and illegal immigration and estimates of demands of future workers. And the current legal inability to distinquish between Islamic and Non-Islamic immigrants. Let alone the sheer impossibility, indeed the huge impopularity (on moral grounds) to send any Muslims ever away, out of democratic countries.

Perhaps this must inspire to something positive and unifying and patient among the citizens of the Democratic Nations until the Muslims indeed run out of time and find their new generations, better educated and informed, indeed apostasizing in great numbers?

But will those new generations of Muslims ever apostasize without peaceful but severe highly informed, highly critical, accountable-holding pressure on all Muslims?

I think that the highest possible peaceful pressure should be applied on Muslims and that that in the end can change the Muslims before they change the other humans into Muslims or dhimmi's.

And when the vast majority of Muslims can no longer believe in their victory in the long run, and when they see that Islam-criticism and pressure on Muslims will only grow and never go away, maybe then they will somehow adapt to essential democratic laws, values and interests.

Jasser's argument basically boils down to; " I was born a Muslim, therefore everything I am corresponds with everything Islam is. "

No doubt bin Laden says exactly the same thing.

Zhudi Jasser says only Allah and the Quran are perfect, not human beings. This implies that Muhammed misheard what Gibreel was speaking to him, either misheard the words or instantly misinterpreted the revelation, so as soon as he passed it on to his disciples it was already incorrect, from the get go it was wrong because Muhammed and his confederates were fallible imperfect humans. Quite fallible and imperfect indeed! If we are to presume that what Gibreel was dictating was good stuff at the outset, it was Muhammed and his friends who instantly turned the message into loathsomely evil nonsense.

Walid Shoebat says the whole Quran needs to be allegorized. He's right. That's what would have to be done. However, to do that you have to situate the Quran in a larger literary tradition so you can interpret words, imagery, symbolisms as referring back to previous literature employing those figures of speech in other and larger contexts so they have other meanings, possibly, beyond their simple literal sense. Islam has no such literary tradition (even today). The Bible has always been allegorized. Starting way back in early Bible interpretation, it was done when the Old testament was being written. Words are explicitly said to be pointing back to other parts of the Scripture. Concepts are explicitly explained as being shadows and mirrorings and allusions alluding to other things written both past and in the future.

In the Christian New Testament it is said explicitly "Jesus always spoke in parables and never spoke except as a parable". The metaphorical interpretation is going on in the Scripture itself, as one is reading it. None of this kind of thing is to be encountered in the Quran. It's kind of late in the game to start the art of alegorizing now, don't ya think? Islam at the outset destroyed the basis for doing it, by severing itself from the Bible, claiming to replace it, (while having no literature of its own).

The ABN network once again contributes mightily to the debate.

Jasser seems to think that Islam has been hijacked by sharia and jihad, and by violent but inauthentic texts, and that sharia and jihad are not essential to what Muhammad taught. Jasser's wrongheadedness about all that fits with the impression he gives of not being particularly familiar with the Islamic texts. It also fits with the fact that in his arguments he does not much refer to specific texts, and seems to put more weight on his personal experience of what it was like for him to be raised by his liberal-minded Muslim parents, and also what it was like to know other American Muslims as he was growing up in the States. In that sesne his approach seems extremely subjective and arbitrary.

But he deserves a lot of credit for trying to stop sharia and jihad.

Zuhdi Jasser occasionally refers to the Christian Reformation and the Enlightenment so as to say hey if the Christians can do it we Muslims can do it just as surely if not easily. I notice Jasser has an erroneous overview of Christian history. He doesn't know that those trends of thought which came to the fore and predominated were always there within Christianity from the very beginning. Jasser speaks of it as though the ideas of the Reform and the Enlightenment were invented at that time, emerging from out of natural rationality, morality and good sense which just suddenly appeared from out of nowhere. For instance, he's unaware that Christianity always included a tension between the impulse for theocracy and the anti-theocratic impulse. Those contrary political ideas existed throughout the history of Christendom, at times one or the other came forward or receded. The problem for Islam is that their own history of political ideas is quite different, theocracy being the only real political idea they've had since Muhammed. Jasser need not use Christian history as his model, but if so he should do so accurately.

From what i read it was Muhammad that was a victim of child-abuse and the pain of being an Orphan raised by relatives.
But Abe Lincoln was raised by step-parents in a log cabin and he went on to do good in life and not fabricate a whole Faith by the voices in his head as Mo did.

Hitler had a better life than Lincoln,so the notion of Poverty creating Terrorists is one big LIE.
100% of the Muslim terrorists used the Quran as the source to be inspired to murder God children for Allah's cause, so the common denominator for all the terrorist claiming to be Muslims is 'The Quran Stupid'

BTW
I was not happy when Dr.Jasser refused to condemn the 9/11 hijackers as bad Muslims, he said that the Quran does not allow him to judge other Muslims.
But CAIR said they weren't Muslims,they were mental Illness victims that hijacked the Planes and Islam.

Most of AIPD (AntiIslamProDemocracy)-people wish Zuhdi Jasser much success. If he gets some kind of Democratic Islam or New Islam off the ground, then that would be very welcome. But he is already denounced by Loonwatch and he will face heavy, no doubt violent, opposition.

But New Islam would indeed be a new synthetic religion and NOT reformed Old Islam. Which to a majority of mankind indeed seems impossible to reform.

But if New Islam existed as a choice for Muslims, then AIPD-people could grow into a new policy. Membership of New Islam would be on Democratic conditions that AIPD-people could applaud and endorse.

Now "default-Muslims" and Muslim-defenders deplore "Islamophobia" and excess of hate-speech and fear-mongering. But with New Islam in existence AIPD-people could turn this around into a big trust-issue. Due to studying and monitoring "default-Islam" and "default-Muslims" trust in them is sinking to zero.

And members of New Islam would earn and deserve trust from their fellow-citizens, thanks to well-thought-out, but reasonable membership-conditions.

AIPD-people could tell "default-Muslims" and the whole of mankind that time is on the side of New Islam and Democratic organisations and time is running out for "Default-Islam".

Now that it and it's goals are recognized these can and will be thwarted. "Default-Muslims" will always be monitored and evaluated about their beliefs and actions. They can no longer realistically expect to win, which they could perhaps only a short while ago.

And eventually technology and education will be so advanced that Old Islam no longer will be able to hold on to most of its followers, despite any demographic advantages it may now have.

So, with New Islam around, a combination of pressure and offering alternatives to Muslims and showing that choice to Muslim-defenders would become possible as strategy for AIPD-people.

Reform Islam? Not possible. It can be "reformed" only if it is stripped of Sharia law, only if all the murderous, bigoted, and jihadist elements are removed from the Koran, the Hadith, and the Sunnah. I challenge any "reformist" like Jasser to try it (in secret, otherwise he'd be inviting reprisals from his brothers). What would be left of Islam? What would be its appeal? All that would be left is a bizarre kaleidoscope of utter nonsense more pathetic and eclectic as the rules and bylaws of Jackie Gleason’s Raccoon Lodge, and even more solicitous of mockery and satire. Get serious, Jasser.

There are only two alternatives regarding Islam: blind conformance to its immutable character, or repudiation of it. Find the intellectual and moral courage to just dump the creed. You can’t have your creed and “reform” it, too.

Anyway, it was great to watch this video.

And yes, I acknowledge how totally impossible and improbable it seems to be to reform Islam. And yet, Zuhdi Jasser exists and he is trying to, if you will, form a new religion, a synthesis of Islam and democracy and modernity.

And what could also be considered by Islam-wise Democracy-loyalists is; What and how much pressure can be put on the traditional, intransigent, stubborn Muslims? On the part of them that can still use their brains?

Here I put it bluntly that technology and education will not stop, stay the same. But in contrast soar sky-high in the very near future, in the 21st century. Computers/ Robots will perhaps be as or more intelligent as humans, in a few decades. I really don't know, but what chance does Islam have then? First what chance to win ultimately universally. then even to maintain it's current market share in the world?

We should study how Islam itself really, really IS in danger, how elusive worldwide domination in the 21st century for Muslims really is. And even that there is the very real danger of Islam losing huge numbers of adherents.

In this way we can pressure young, thinking Muslims in the direction of either apostasy or the movement of Zuhdi Jasser.

Now, I think, by far the most Muslims, think that time is on their side, that they will grow indefinitely, grow their market share through demographic warfare. And that they think any opponents they have are weak, divided, unmotivated, dispirited. And that patience and perseverance are virtues for Muslims.

But patience and perseverance and them complacence and false expectations may well ruin them! Arrogantly warring against other human groups and ignoring their protests may well be seen as the height of stupidity of Muslims later on in history.

It is not just a question of Muslims being unable to reform, it is perhaps more a question of motivating Muslims to reform!

A more meaningful symposium would have been 'Astrology: can it be perfected?'

After all, wouldn't it be nice if psychics never go wrong in predicting one's future?

If I'd listen to anyone, I listen to walid Shoebat and here is why:

1st Walid has an intelectual understanding (a lot like Robert Spence)of islam.

2nd Walids understanding goes way beyond a intelectual understanding, he has a emontiononal understanding of Islam, he lived it

3rd Walid's native language is arabic

4th Walid does risk his life by speaking out, like Spencer and others, but he does even more, he activly rescues persecuted christians with all his might

God bless Walid Shoebat