Whatever you may think of Terry Jones and Qur'an-burning, this is a freedom of speech issue. If Terry Jones can be denied his right to protest peacefully because of the fear of violence from Muslims, the Islamic supremacists are already in charge and controlling the agenda. And that is, of course, their goal. There has already been a great deal of silliness about this case -- the mayor of Dearborn issued an open letter to Jones invoking the existence of a pork products factory and strip joints within city limits to prove that Dearborn was not implementing Islamic law. But no one is saying that Dearborn is a Sharia-ruled entity on par with Saudi Arabia and Iran. The issue is whether or not Terry Jones's freedom of expression is being infringed in order to placate Muslims in accord with Islamic law. And obviously it is.
He should not, meanwhile, pay the bond for the extra police. The Mayor of Dearborn should be affirming and defending the freedom of expression and not making him shoulder the expense himself.
"Terry Jones won't pay bond; jury to weigh protest," by Oralandar Brand-Williams for The Detroit News, April 21:
Dearborn — A Quran-burning pastor will face a trial this afternoon, after refusing to pay a bond ordered by a judge for his planned Good Friday protest of the Islamic Center of North America.Terry Jones' decision came after Judge Mark Somers of 19th District Court in Dearborn ruled that prosecutors proved beyond a reasonable doubt that Jones' planned demonstration on a small median outside the Ford Road mosque could breach the peace.
"I'm not surprised," by the ruling, Jones said.He opted for the trial after Somers said he could either pay the unspecified bond or face trial.
Somers began impaneling a jury this afternoon.
The ruling puts into question Jones' demonstration, which has sparked arguments about the line between free speech and public safety. Prosecutors have sought the unspecified bond — Jones said it was up to $100,000 — for extra police in fear of a riot.
The hearing comes a day after Dearborn city officials denied Jones a permit to protest on public land near the mosque citing public safety concerns. They say he could face arrest if he carries through the protest. Before the hearing, Jones — who wore a leather jacket and jeans — said he planned to proceed with the demonstration despite the permitting issues or peace bond.
"This will not stop us," Jones said before the hearing that began at 3 p.m.
The courtroom was packed mostly with journalists and a few spectators including Richard Fournier. The Redford Township resident said he supports the minister's right to free speech but thinks he is misguided.
"He's just grandstanding to get attention," said Fournier.
Outside the court, a handful of protestors gathered against Jones. One held a sign reading, "Racist Terry Jones Get out of Town."
The issue is also being watched very closely by the ACLU of Michigan, which planned to have a representative in the courtroom today. The organization wants to make sure Jones' First Amendment rights are not being violated, said ACLU of Michigan spokeswoman Rana Elmir....
Well, that's a welcome turnabout for the ACLU.
I think I'm getting it now. If some people in a given place don't like you and disapprove of your ideas, then you have to pay the police there to protect you or else you suffer from criminals doing criminal things to you.
I'm not clear about the rest. If criminals attack law-abiding people, who then pays for the following police work, assuming there is any? Do tax-payers pay? the victims? or the criminals? Or has the secretary already put a cheque in the mail and we can all relax and smoke another joint?
A great deal of thanks are due to Mr. Spencer for posting this.
However unintelligent or bigoted the pastor might be, I think he is handling the process of bringing out Islamic insanity with brilliance. He is even getting the ACLU on his side.
I made some comments below the post on April 20 entitled Nigeria: Muslim opposition candidate rejects election results, 40,000 displaced in violence, where I asked Mr. Spencer to post something about the pastor's visit to Dearborn. Here is my analysis as posted in those comments:
To John P:
I agree that burning books is not, as a general matter, indicative of high moral or intellectual principle. I also agree with all of your other points, and I would like to add that I have heard that the pastor is bigoted in many respects. He is clearly not a very intelligent person.
BUT HE IS CARRYING OUT WHAT I BELIEVE IS THE ONLY STRATEGY LIKELY TO BE EFFECTIVE IN THE SHORT RUN: he is using the power of freedom of speech (probably the most important bedrock principle in the foundation of the U.S.) to deliberately bring out Islamic insanity. And he is doing so at tremendous risk to his own life. Most people conclude, after seeing the Islamic response to the pastor, that however bigoted he might be the Islamists have proven themselves to be completely insane.
I don't know anybody else who is openly using that strategy. The reason that I believe that strategy to be the only effective one is this: The development of events since Mr. Spencer's contributions to the education of the world about Islam have convincingly demonstrated that merely putting the facts out is not enough. Mr. Spencer has completely and irrefutably proven his case, BUT VERY FEW PEOPLE ARE LISTENING.
As things stand, if Islamic insanity is not brought to the forefront of American consciousness, everybody from Obama to Bush 43 to Hillary Clinton to the Washington Post and the NY Times to the American generals have been given a free hand to tell lies about Islam. Mr. Spencer is portrayed as a rabid Muslim hater and distorter of the true teachings, while the Islamists are seen as rational, peace-promoting, and open-minded. THIS SITUATION IS UTTERLY PERVERSE.
If things develop in accordance with current trends, Islam will continue to expand in the U.S. until its intrinsic inhumanity is rejected by Muslims themselves in large numbers. That will take possibly 100 years or more, and will result in a lot of damage to the American social fabric, and lots of bloodshed.
Regarding the risk to soldiers in Afghanistan by the pastor's conduct, those soldiers have immersed themselves amongst people who are armed and utterly insane, and they will remain at increased risk every time some provocative event occurs in the world.
------
To gravenimage:
The reason I post my ideas here is so that others can see them, and criticize them or support them as they deem appropriate. I learn something from each response I get.
Gee, The Westboro Gang travels coast to coast and never runs into this problem. They're usually allowed to get as close as a pall bearer. Hmmm, wonder why?
What good will result from a jury trial when the jury will NOT be informed of its legal authority to be judge of both facts and law. ALL judges interfere with these prerogatives of juries.
It is actually pretty terrific that Dearbornistan is now reaping what it has sown. It should be a target for the testing of constitutional rights.
The folks at answeringmuslims.com Acts 17 are, with the great assistance from the admirable Thomas More Center, well deep into lawsuits with Dearbornistan, its mayor and its police. These officials are so wrong that it will be a sight to behold the soon to be had reversals.
Under Islam, When Muslims rule, the victims usually pay..one way or the other..
I believe SCOTUS (with only Justice Alito dissenting) gave the green light to Fred Phelps, the registered Democrat from Wichita, KS, to get as ugly as possible outside military funerals. Of course, we've only seen the Westboro Cult outside churches, or Christian places of worship.
I wonder if a mahoud soldier were killed, would Phelps show up at a mosque with signs saying, "Allah Hates Fags?" We all know that Allah does hate gays, but how would the ummah take this constitutionally protected display?
Remember, no matter how distasteful the message, this is a constitutional freedom which must be protected. Christians are told this repeatedly. Pastor Jones, and I won't even say he's a kook or give the obligatory statement of distaste, is an American with constitutional rights. And right now those rights, the same rights given to Nazis who marched through Skokie, IL, are being denied.
Why do we continue to try to appease the liberals and call this Pastor a bigot?
He's got more principle, more guts, more balls & done more to bring Islam to light than who else?
Without disparaging Spencer or the likes of Geller & so forth, who has attracted as much media attention as this man?
Is the Koran to be considered a book, like all the others?
I wouldn;t want to burn the book of heresies against the Catholic Church, because most of them, flawed as they are in my opinion & reasoning, have at least some glimpse of attempting to discuss what truth is.
The Koran is just a daily diary of Mohammad's rapings, killings & thievery, plastered into a pseudo-semi-coherent narrative with random commands to pray on Friday (a random day considering Saturday & Sunday was already taken by the Jews & Christians respectively).
You are absolutely right. The Supreme Court ruling on Westboro gives Terry Jones the right to stand 1000 feet away and give his opinion of islam. I hope the ACLU believes that to be the truth and takes this to the Supreme Court again, if necessary.
I don't think Terry Jones is a moron. I do think he is very brave. Ann Burnhardt brave. Geert Wilders brave.
We who "know better" with the guidance of Robert, Pam et al should not betray Terry Jones. We should speak out loud in defence of what he is doing, and of the truth that he exposes: that totalitarian evil lies in the heart of islam.
Exactly how is Terry Jones a bigot?
Arthur, you may recall from my previous responses to your posts here that I consider you a shameless pedant and a hopeless, self-centered bore. So, it concerns me a lot that I find myself in even PARTIAL agreement with you. Unfortunately, you lack the wisdom to quit while you're ahead.
Yes, Terry Jones is taking it straight to the muslims, getting in their ugly faces, right in their den. I like it that he's confronting them, confronting Dearborn, confronting Dhimmi America. He's taking our Constitution to them the way they so enjoy taking it to us. And the muslims and their Dhimmi fellow-travelers are going apoplectic. Great! There's a time and place for this and I think now is the time & Dearborn is the place. And that's the way Terry Jones does things, so good on him.
But that's not the way Mr. Spencer does things.
Mr. Spencer is a respected scholar, writer, educator and, for my money, the most effective
voice against islam in the Free World. That's why I'm here. And if he were more like Terry Jones and less like Robert Spencer, I wouldn't be here. You said it yourself, (re Jones) that, "He is clearly not a very intelligent person." Would you say that about Mr. Spencer? Not in my presence you wouldn't...
Look, Arthur, Robert needs no apologies (least of all from you) for being himself. He has had (and continues to enjoy) enormous impact and influence in the battle against islam. And, I might add, at great personal expense and risk and always maintaining his dignity. And, let's let the "not very intelligent" Terry Jones be himself, too. Each can make his own contribution in his own style. But, just between you and me, Arthur, my money is on Mr. Spencer...
Pastor Jones, please have faith in God as GOD ALWAYS PUTS THE CURE BEFORE THE DESEASE !!
Judge Mark Somers thinks a small protest on a median could spark a riot? What does Judge Mark Somers and the Prosecutors know about Dearborn that we do not?
What evidence did the prosecutors give that proves the American citizens living in Dearborn are just as prone to riot as are the uneducated people living under 3rd world tyranies? Utter tosh.
Furthermore I seriously doubt pastor jones needs or wants any police protection.
The brownshirt goons that tried to intimidate acts 17 at the muslim festival a while back were few in number.
Should those goons be deployed against pastor Jones it would be caught on camera for the world to see.
Lastly (and firstly) There is absolutely nothing in the 1st amendment about having to pay 100,000 dollars in order to assert ones right to free speach.
Whatever publicity Pastor Jones gets from being arrested and tried will be the fault of the Michigan legal system.
God please forgive my wrong spelling--DISEASE .
Terry Jones is a bargain basement Geert Wilders. However, as long as the US Constitution continues, Jones' freedom of speech must be upheld. I only wish that he didn't burn the stupid book, but had something else that he could do that would make the point even better. Book-burning and Nazis are so associated that it actually blurs who is the real villain.
We need to not fear Muslims so much, and fear their ideas more. By the way, what race is Islam? I thought it was a "religion". Dearbornistan definitely caters to muslims (I have a dear friend who I visit there) but that should stop. Muslims need to learn how to live in a multi-ethinic, multi-culti society.
The real thugs and fascists are the ones using fear to force everyone else to pretend that their cult of Islam is respectable and above criticism.
God bless all this Holy Week, and pray for the conversion of hundreds of millions of muslims. Islam holds a large portion of mankind in bondage to an ideology that obligates them to hate, murder, and oppress women. The world will be much better without Islam. May the day the world is free from Islam come soon!
If we had more fearless Christians like Pastor Jones maybe we would see less Christian persecution and terrorism by the followers of Islam. If nothing else at least he is fighting back. I say bravo for the Pastor.
I wonder how much Saudi money is funding Dearborn! Bravo to the ever brave Pastor Jones; who will not compromise on PREDATORY evil of Islam as called in the Bible - . That Satanic Arabic Pedophile rapist creator of Islam, Mohammed loves to murder the Jews and rape and enslave the wives and children of the victims, especially of the Jews - if that's not Satanic enough, what is? But what's also so scary are Churches that are bowing to Islam - our Lord Jesus Christ taught us to love people, not evilness of people or beliefs since He hates evilness - He came down so humbly in human flesh to SAVE us from evilness. These kind of Churches remind me of the great movie about Satanic church as in "The Eighteen Angel" (1998), as directed by William Bindley, written by David Seltzer and starring Christopher McDonald, Rachael Leigh Cook and Stanley Tucci!
Qur'an-burning pastor denied right to protest in Michigan, faces trial to decide if protest can be held
Whatever you may think of Terry Jones and Qur'an-burning, this is a freedom of speech issue. If Terry Jones can be denied his right to protest peacefully because of the fear of violence from Muslims, the Islamic supremacists are already in charge and controlling the agenda. And that is, of course, their goal.
.............................
Yes, it is. Under Shari'ah law, dhimmis are not allowed to be critical of Islam or the Qu'ran. Shari'ah-minded Muslims want to impose the same strictures on us here in the civilized West.
This is exactly what the Geert Wilders trial in the Netherlands is about, as well. Pastor Terry Jones may not be of the same caliber as the great Geert Wilders, but his freedom of speech rights are every bit as precious, and this is every bit as much a test for the West.
So far, neither the US nor Europe is making a very good showing in defending our freedoms...
More:
He should not, meanwhile, pay the bond for the extra police. The Mayor of Dearborn should be affirming and defending the freedom of expression and not making him shoulder the expense himself.
.............................
Indeed not. On what basis is this bond being imposed?
"Terry Jones' decision came after Judge Mark Somers of 19th District Court in Dearborn ruled that prosecutors proved beyond a reasonable doubt that Jones' planned demonstration on a small median outside the Ford Road mosque could breach the peace."
.............................
This might be warranted if it was believed that *Terry Jones or any of his group* were going to "breach the peace". But this is *not* the case. It is Muslims *reacting* to his demonstration who are likely to breach that peace.
This is handing what is allowable in a free society to *the most violent, irrational, uncontrolled people in that society*—Muslims, in this case.
If someone objects to my walking down the sidewalk, and is likely to disturb the peace if I do walk down the sidewalk, am I to be confined to my home as a result?
The above, of course, is not a rhetorical question—this is exactly the case with unveiled women in the more pious reaches of Dar-al-Islam.
Is this the standard we want to see used in *the United States of America*?
More:
The ruling puts into question Jones' demonstration, which has sparked arguments about the line between free speech and public safety. Prosecutors have sought the unspecified bond — Jones said it was up to $100,000 — for extra police in fear of a riot.
.............................
Why should Pastor Jones pay the cost of potential rioting Muslims? Also, if Dearborn knows a peaceful demonstration like the one planned by Pastor Jones is likely to incite a Muslim riot, then doesn't that city have much bigger problems than whether Pastor Jones appears there or not?
Why doesn't the city just issue a warning to Muslims that they are being watched, and that any violence from them will not be countenanced?
I also wonder where the "moderate" Muslims are. aren't they offended that it is simply assumed that they will violently riot over the least provocation?
The last is, of course, a purely rhetorical question...
More:
The courtroom was packed mostly with journalists and a few spectators including Richard Fournier. The Redford Township resident said he supports the minister's right to free speech but thinks he is misguided.
"He's just grandstanding to get attention," said Fournier.
.............................
Firstly, it is obvious by now that this has become about larger issues of freedom of speech. But even if it were true that Jones was doing nothing but "grandstanding", so what?
It hardly matter in the legal sense if some group's demonstration is as momentous as Martin Luther King's 1964 "March on Washington", or if it is some silly protest like the bare-breasted babes who regularly demonstrate in several Oregon towns in favor of a "gender-blind dress code".
If the Nazis could march in Skokie, then Jones can do his thing in Dearborn, even if it is abhorrent, but posting a bond may be reasonable, so long as it does not unduly interfere with the individual's core right and there are no less intrusive alternatives.
"If the Nazis could march in Skokie, then Jones can do his thing in Dearborn, even if it is abhorrent, but posting a bond may be reasonable, so long as it does not unduly interfere with the individual's core right and there are no less intrusive alternatives."
If trouble occurs it won't be at the hands of Pastor Jones....If Pastor Jones is forced to post a bond, shouldn't the Muslim protestors be forced to post a bond as well...?
Perfectly good question, especially if the counter-protest is organized.
Or perhaps they should wall off the entire area and charge admission, like $10 per head.
The most disturbing thing about this whole affair is that America's leadership is probably going to once again miss this opportunity to affirm the importance of the First Amendment rights to freedom of speech, the press, and peaceable assembly before the whole world. If Americans were more like the supposedly more civilized Europeans (soccer hooliganism has given me second thoughts about that old chestnut) and had hate speech laws on the books and prosecuted people for violating them, I daresay that many a Muslim imam in America would be wearing an orange jumpsuit and, if a non-citizen, facing deportation hearings.
This being said, while I respect Pastor Jones' physical courage and execrate those who would deny his freedom of political expression (and the place of Islam in America, alas, has become politicized), and even agree with him that the Qur'an is by no means a reiteration of the Old and New Testaments, I still disapprove of book-burnings. Our land has become too ignorant of just about nearly everything, and our discourse has generally degenerated into name-calling and sound-bite platitudes. Opposition to book-burning means that some of us believe that it is necessary to read, think, and interact with important statements.
"Well, that's a welcome turnabout for the ACLU."
Indeed, but this is harldy a change of heart. The ACLU will occasional take cases that are opposite of it's cause to try to smokescreen their agenda. It's a myth that the ACLU is a civil rights organisation, or an organization that "went bad". The fact is, from their conception they have been an organisation whose goal is to shape america to their values, squashing the civil rights (hypocritically) or those who oppose their agenda of promoting pornography, squelching the rights of organizations to choose who are members and leaders (such as the boys scouts) and silence any criticizing of homosexuality.
I think what is wrong with the ACLU is that they pursue human rights as an end in & of itself - rather than the means to an end.
As a result, they will defend every questionable character & bend over backwards for the rights of a criminal.
They represent a slowing down of Western civilization - both have lost any semblance of any goal or objective to achieve. Where else it was once to achieve a Christian utopia, and then some multicultural importation of every ethnicity for it's own sake, now it's very difficult to say where our civilization is heading for.
We are fixed on present concerns. Our means have no end to achieve or look forward to.
And neither does the ACLU care how badly you will misuse your human rights & for what devious end.
Mind you, Pastor Jones should not be insulted.
It is absolutely not right, and I ask you to reconsider the reasonableness of asking someone to put up money as a hedge against others' violence.
This is no anarchist demonstration where the police ask for a bond so that the protesters kicking over trash cans and throwing things at politicians can pay for the protection of others.
What the logical conclusion of this idiot judge's and prosecutors' argument, that they dare not say, is that if Jones protests, they must go door to door at the mosque, (trial's on a Friday, right?) collecting money to protect Dearbornistan against its ready to riot at any moment moderate population. Isn't that more the point? Seriously, if there is a strip club in Dearborn, do they ask the owners for a bond? How about a church with bells in its belfrey? These dhimmi tools have had their Americanness wiped out in less than a generation.
It takes public education to do that.
How dare people judge his intelligence as some kind of qualification for his speech. If Trig Palin wanted to stand on the corner and rail against Islam, would he be poo-pood too?
Who cares if he burned the goddamned book!! It has nothing to do with the fascist reasons those societies burned books. Stop thinking jingoistically and start actually thinking! He did not burn a book to remove it from the circulation of a society entirely. That's what fascists do. They also burn other people's books.
This guy burned a piece of crap that he owned. What on earth do we have to criticize him for?
Tired of the elitism. To each his own, and the Muslims can go beat their wives if they're so upset about it and leave Jones the hell alone. Pieces of cowardly crap themselves. Who's the one following the Qur'an and Mohammed? There's your intelligence deficiency. Start there and leave this man out of it.
I would love to see those patriot riders that show up against Westboro show up to surround this man.
They think Muslims will riot? Why are they allowing the importation of such a dangerous element into their state? Why aren't they petitioning the INS to stop such insidious immigration policies. Cowards. Cowards without the good arguments. Spit.
Excellent post, Winoceros.
Poor Pastor Jones has been vilified by the right, left, Muslims, Christians, and even anti-jihadists. But really, whatever the media says about him: that he is an ignorant bigot that runs a cult and is only in this for the money and fame; he is still putting his head on the chopping block by making extreme public statements against Islam. How many of us here are willing to do that? He is not a scholar of Islam, in fact he admits to only reading parts of the Koran. However, not everyone has the time to become as knowledgeable as Robert Spencer. Let’s also be realistic about this. How many people even care to become as knowledgeable as Spencer on the subject of Islam? In our fast-food, instant gratification culture, most people prefer catchy one-liners to robust debate and cogent arguments. For most, it comes down to “Islam sucks” or “Islam is peace,” facts be damned. Don’t get me wrong, Islam does suck, and there are plenty of facts to prove it. The point is that most people don’t care to back their opinions with facts. Jones performs a useful service. He is acting well within the bounds of free speech, but sooner or later some Muslims in the US will snap, and further prove his point to the masses that it is a violent religion. And he will do this without a degree or decades of personal study.
HI Guys and Gals,,, please write some letters and make some phone calls. Jones needs our support and Wayne County Prosecutors need to know your objections.
Here are the ones I sent.
My Letter to Pastor Terry Jones by Damon Whitsell
http://religionofconquest.com/my-letter-to-pastor-terry-jones-by-damon-whitsell/
My letter to Kym L. Worthy and the Wayne County Prosecutors Office about Terry Jones in Dearborn by Damon Whitsell
http://religionofconquest.com/my-letter-to-kym-l-worthy-and-the-wayne-county-prosecutors-office-about-terry-jones-in-dearborn-by-damon-whitsell/
The URL's and #'s are on my post.
THANKS YA'LL FOR TAKING A STAND!!!
It would be more effective if someone said they were going to burn only the parts of the Qur'an that mandated jihad, were misogynist and the parts that said Muslims were better than non-Muslims.
The few pages left could then be explained as being abrogated and so are not relevant to Islam.
That would leave ....ehm..well, just about only the covers of the book.
A pretty convincing argument and informative, too, I'd say.
"He's just grandstanding to get attention," said Fournier.
Well, OK, but at high risk of his life, remember? And with no financial gain, to speak of. So what makes him tick?
I venture to put up: disinterest, lack of reaction, lack of taking responsibility by Muslims and Muslim-defenders. Or indeed the great mass of politicians, media and citizens. who are perpetually busy, tired, otherwise committed and generally disinterested.
And in that spirit excusing and exonerating Muslims and Islam as a corollary. Lazily relativating and uttering moral equivalence on basically much different tenets, actions and grades of severity.
Well, if Muslims and Muslim-defenders are so excellent at moral equivalencing, perhaps what we can present them is some declarations and acts of our own, that genuinely shock them, but still within moral and legal boundaries.
That serves our purposes of defending our democratic principles admirably and effectively, in accordance with the big strength, indeed DIAMOND of Democracy, freedom of speech.
Enabling us, as it does, to turn the table on these Muslims and Muslim-defenders by reacting to THEIR outrage in the same way as they to ours. With exposure of practice of Muslims globally and then comparisons with the supposed evil acts of the Islam-critics. And now the Muslims and Muslim-defenders MUST listen and respond or else reconsider. Or alternative we could shrug their protests off with a "and how about what the Muslims do in this respect?" So, with a dismissing Tu Quoque-answer, given to us all the time.
Arthur, I admire your post and intelligence, or perhaps great insight, and it is important for me to let you know that.
Hello everyone,
Please watch this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_dxhlEz27s
(PJTV's Andrew Klavan: Political Correctness Kills)
Who is this guy Andrew Klavan? I want to send him Easter greetings.
Judge Mark Somers presided over the trumped-up trial of the guys over at Answering Muslims. He has 'form' ....
Hello Nina:
I watched the video---I like him. When time permits, I will watch all the videos.
On a personal note:
I have been mucking about and boring people with my,
"The West is analog, Islam is digital." and calling it "Signalism". In view of the rapidly deteriorating situation in Europe and North America and the need for action, I am now changing the doctrine's name to "Solutionism". I will have much more to say about this at a later date. Have a nice day.
Dear Mr (Mrs?) pokermutt,
Yes, I must agree: you HAVE been boring people with this analog-digital thing.
Although generally you make very sharp remarks and dilute the contents of this discussion with healthy irony, thus preventing it from becoming bathetically serious.
(And life is too short to be taken seriously)
I just can't understand one thing, why is Islam digital if, at least in my satellite TV set, digital is considered more advanced?
Happy Easter!
My point has always been that Pastor Jones looks a lot like John Brown, the abolitionist that touched of the Civil War. The only basic difference is that Jones did not resort to violence where Brown's hatred of slavery did. Jones "free speech" is an expression of his hatred of Islam as an ideology that runs counter to the goodness of Man and to our American ideals. They should set up a stage for him in Dearborn. He may well be forerunning another bloodbath that will be needed in order to purge evil from the soul of America, and more so, from the soul of human kind.
PRAISE GOD FOR TERRY JONES! This would be a perfect law suit against the city of Dearborn because its attempt to quash first ammendments rights that have been affimed by the Westboro case!
Hello Nina:
"digital is considered more advanced". Yes, it yields great advantage in signal processing, but that is not the point. I bet your audio system is advanced and all digital too. Taqiyya exists in marketing as well.
"Speakers labeled as digital:
Modern speakers marketed as 'digital' are always analog speakers, in most cases driven by an analog amplifier. The widespread use of the term 'digital' with speakers is a marketing ploy intended to claim better suitability with 'digital' source material (e.g., MP3 recordings), or impute 'higher technology' than some other speaker, and perhaps higher price. If pressed, manufacturers may claim the term means the product is 'ready' for input from digital players; this is true of essentially all speaker systems.”
Islam is digital in its nature: EITHER/OR, ON/OFF, Passive/Agressive, etc. leading me to say that there is nothing between one and zero. Analog, in its nature, allows for values of zero, between, and one. There is a richness there that allows for humanness.
To your:
(And life is too short to be taken seriously) I wil respond with my calculus:
"In the last moments, A Christian's life becomes like a contradictory differential calculus---the 'x' of his existence rapidly approaches both zero and infinity."
Besides expressing the differences in nature, the seven words allow for an elevated, philosophical starting point of conversation before descending into emotionalism and islamoloathia.
I'm a man and pokermutt is just fine.
If a man bores his companions, perhaps he hears the beat of a different drum.
any credence for islam is a traitorous act..
any reverence for mohammad is living a lie..
terry Jones may not be a scholar.. yet he is shaming all of you who do nothing real to save humanity from slavery..
you detractors should be flogged..
We need to cherish what this paster Jones is doing while most of us sit by the side lines and what other Christians in the ME cannot ever think to even do in their states. May God bless Pastor Jones and all those who like Robert Spencer do for the freedom and safety we all enjoy in the West!
I wonder how the typical boilerplate, "Islam has been hijacked by a tiny group of extremists," is going to play out when members of the Dearborn muslim community start rioting in reaction to Terry Jones's constitutionally protected right to peaceful protest? As these "people" are either US citizens or landed immigrants who have pledged to uphold the tenets of the constitution of the United States of America, they should all be targeted for prosecution for treason and sedition and, finally, deportation (or jail). As far as I know, "rioting" and "violent protest" is not protected by the First Amendment.
Ima
Rev Terry Jones is to be applauded. Whether he's a reincarnation of Jean-Marie Le Pen is another matter. Whatever one thinks of Le Pen, he called it, and did so a long time ago.
*** Bukhair Vol 6 Bk 60 Nbr 8 ***
Whatever verse (Revelations) do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten but We bring a better one or similar to it.
Yes, I must agree: you HAVE been boring people with this analog-digital thing.
I'm not sure I can agree with this, Nina. I regard communications theory to be at the center of the Moslem Mess. To wit, if everybody in the world gave an honest reading to the Moslem scriptures and all of Spencer's work, the crisis would be over. But for some reason Islam is highly resistant to mass critical review; somehow we've become inured to the subject.
My only problem with Signalism is that I don't understand it, having caught the topic too late in its gestation.
Perhaps Monsieur Mutt could post a precis of his theory.
Hello again MISTER pokermutt,
First, I didn't want to offend you in any way. What I write may seem rude sometimes because some nuances of English language escape me, but it's never my intention.
Second, having read your explanation about digital/analog I think your theory makes a lot of sense. Islamists really behave like robots mosly. When they begin to experience a broader range of humane emotions, they often leave Islam or at least abandon destructive activities (as it happened with the Palestinian guy who was a computer specialist helping HAMAS aim their rockets to Israeli targets and refused to carry on after exchanging emails for a while with an Israeli citizen - BBC reported on that a couple of months ago).
That analog/digital difference also poses (for me as an absolute IT-ignoramus) an interesting OT-question: can it be that analog systems in principle have greater future than digital ones? Logically thinking they must be capable of more things.
Spot on, winoceros. So many good points.
Especially: the government KNOWS Muslims are prone to violence but keeps importing them anyway.
I think what Jones did was VERY brave and VERY important and VERY timely. He helped bring to light (before it's too late) the problems WE are facing regarding the ISLAM ideology. He is a HERO!
1) We burn a book
2) The Muslims Kill 12+ people
3) We condemn them for the killing 12 people.
There are NO consequences for the Muslims. Our condemnations means nothing! They could care less. They are probably laughing at our stupidity. They kill . . we condemn! Where is that Equal?
This is the way it SHOULD go down.
1) We burn a book
2) The Muslims Kill 12+ people
3) We CLOSE DOWN A MOSQUE & EXILE it's clerics!
(THIS is a REAL consequence & that serves to reduce their EVIL ILLEGAL IDEOLOGY.
They kill more people?
We close down ANOTHER mosque and EXILE THEIR clerics.
They say . . . that Mosque had nothing to do with it?
We say . . the people YOU murdered had nothing to do with the Quran burning.
THIS will reduce their influence, and make them think twice, knowing another mosque will be closed if they murder innocent people.
I also think that Mr Jones is to be applauded. He reminds me of the German journalist in early 30's , Fritz Gerlich, who understood the looming danger at an early stage and started publishing very critical materials about Nazis in his weekly paper Der gerade Weg (the straight path).
He also was accused of stirring national discord back then. Now we see things in a different light.
"The worst thing we can do, the absolute worst, is to do nothing." - that's citation from his article, according to the movie "Hitler: The Rise of Evil" (if the source can be trusted).
Hello APF:
Thanks for axin about that precis. I'll get to work on it.
I have changed "Signalism" to "Solutionism" for an action flavor.
Yes, I kind of admire Pastor Jones. Most of us keep in our comfort zone and are happy for others to take risks in denouncing this so called religion that threatens one's life if one doesn't submit.
He is not a bigot - how can he possibly be regarded as one if he condemns Islam which takes life in vain. Aren't bigots the ones who tread on the lives of others? Well that's my understanding at least and I'm sticking to it. I'm worthy of living and I don't wish to be judged by some imposed supreme presence (Allah) which ultimately cannot be identified or realized outside of the personal beliefs of ordinary people.
Pastor Jones needn't be educated in Islam...the facts of the attrocities of Islam are before everyone's eyes. From this viewpoint at least, the question of whether or not it is appropriate to destroy a book is rendered redundant / defunct.
In any case, the destruction of a book is just an act - just phenomena - the indoctrinated beliefs and resultant illness (psychosis?) lie in the lives of the people who are prepared to kill in response. How can he be held accountable for a volatile, angry and delusional state of life created by the Islam adherents themselves.
Anyone who dares speak out against Islam becomes the target ... the Muslims appearing like so many hyenas circling a weak, young, old or incapacitated animal....
What I find most disturbing about Islamic supremacists is that they threaten that which everyone holds most dearest - their very lives, which everyone regards as their 'greatest treasure' ...no religion needs to tell / teach them this. It is universally realized in just being. To rob another of this, (according to one's philosophy on life or religious views)ultimately must equate to violating one's very 'soul', no matter how defined.
Somehow, for the more militant Muslim, the nature of the severe practices and conditioning beliefs of Islam over the centuries and the outlawing of the usual activities which bring about one's physical and emotional well being have combined to produce individuals who have completely lost sight of their 'humanity'. Deep seated anger and deprivation combined possibly with envy (at seeing the West go happily on its merry way without bowing before allah) must also play a part.
To some extent at least, even at the subconscious level, supremacist Muslims desire to see Infidels 'suffer what they have suffered' through the enforced imposition of Islam on their lives. Perhaps this is never realized as such...seems to be motivated by revenge / hatred (believing Infidels are somehow responsible for their plight).
The more people bow down to intimidation, fear, uncertainty and the ramblings of intellect (confusion over moral issues) the more the machinery of Islam is fed...and not to speak out against attrocities is actually condoning them.
All the evidence suggests that Robert Spencer is right in his appraisal. This spread of Islam seems to be a war waged on a new front ..an evolution in warfare whereby much of the attack is 'psychological' ....targeting one's weaknesses and 'delusions of mind' whilst instilling fear.
To what extent is this consciously planned and executed and to what extend has it just evolved into some kind of 'creeping mass pyschosis' at the subconcious level...this I guesss seems a little abstract but the profundity of life and workings of the mind really can't be dismissed.
I really wish it weren't true...but I'm beginning to realize that there is no option but to take a strong united stance and never bow down..isolated individuals really can't be expected to do this ...and personally I think they can't as individuals.
A spade has to be called a spade at some point.
when lives are at stake, all other considerations become void...as ultimately they depend on one living (to state the obvious!).
Hello Nina:
"That analog/digital difference also poses (for me as an absolute IT-ignoramus) an interesting OT-question: can it be that analog systems in principle have greater future than digital ones? Logically thinking they must be capable of more things."
Nah, not really. It's just that without analog, things become inhuman. No analog speakers, no music. Digital, as a complete system, is not possible, hence, the urgent need to establish the worldwide caliphate.
In thinking and dealing with issues, analog allows for "maybe" and all kinds of shades between one and zero. Apparently Islam does not. On the nature of Islam, it is EITHER our way OR the highway (of death). The farmer could speak to that much better than I ever could.
I never thought you were rude in the least. How could you be with such a beautiful name as Nina?
I'm gonna play some poker now. Let me wish you, Ms Nina, a good Good Friday.
Also . . everytime they place a FATWA on an innocent person for exercising their 1st amendment rights such as:
1) leaving Islam
2) drawing a cartoon
3) writing a book
4) insulting Muslims
etc.
We should "SHUT DOWN a MOSQUE & EXILE IT'S CLERICS".
THIS will mean something, This is a consequence, and we must implement it NOW, before it's too late!
For those opposed to Qur'an burning:
Think for a moment.
Unlike the book burnings conducted by Hitler's Nazi government, the purpose of burning a Qur'an now--by private citizens--is not to prevent others from reading a copy, but to protest what it says.
Indeed, no one is denied access to ‘its message’ when worn out copies are destroyed—by burning.
If a million copies were to be destroyed--by whatever method--hundreds of millions would remain available around the world.
I would personally oppose burning historically significant copies of the Qur'an, but general use copies in current circulation can easily be reprinted, or read online, or even on wireless reading devices.
So what’s the real beef here?
After reading about making Jones pay a bond. This is all backwards. Let the leadership of the mosque pay the bond and guarantee that they, the Muslims, will not riot. And, if not a bond, then a guarantee from them. The problem is not with the brave Pastor Jones. The problem is with the dimmitude of the leaders, police and judicial powers of the local legal system. And, ultimately with Islam itself.
Somewhere our constitution will be tested. Why not now. Test it in the “den of devils” itself. Get on with it. Pray that Pastor Jones lives through it.
About Pastor Jones and burning:
Freedom of expression is our fire alarm---disable it and the House that is Western Civilization will burn down.
I supported Pastor Jones from the beginning without any Ifs, ANDs, or BUTs and I still do.
That movie I saw twice on TV, it was great and informative. and yes, I felt deep admiration for Fritz Gerlich. Also it was very impressive what Andrew Klavan was saying on You Tube about "The happy spot". Thanks again for a highly informative link, Nina. As you gave good links before with Andrew Murray.
It seems that there is in place a great number of higly eloquent Islam-critics, disseminating their information widely. And Daniel Pipes (do you know HIM?, of course you do) wrote that the number of Islam-opponents in Europe and America grows faster than the number of Muslims grows there.
Also I believe both Muslims and our pessimists could be wrong about the chances of Islam if Muslims wait too long to strike decisively. In the long run our technological development at a staggering rate + high rates of good education, combined with the presence and actions of staunch freedom-defenders like Robert Spencer and huge numbers of Islam-wise citizens, will cause Islam to be running out of time for conquest or even consolidation.
And I think that the sooner the Muslims are made to realise that themselves (let them be pessimistic!) the sooner they will apostasize or change (if they can).
Hi demsci,
I'm glad you liked the link!
You wrote:
"In the long run our technological development at a staggering rate + high rates of good education, combined with the presence and actions of staunch freedom-defenders like Robert Spencer and huge numbers of Islam-wise citizens, will cause Islam to be running out of time for conquest or even consolidation."
I would add one more thing to the list: creative imagination. (watching "Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire" right now on TV)
Gelukkig Paasfeest/Prettige Paasdagen - Happy Easter!
Prosecutors have sought the unspecified bond — Jones said it was up to $100,000 — for extra police in fear of a riot.
Well George Lincoln Rockwell and the crew of the American NAZ! Party protested Jews and the freedom protest was not abridged. Of course the jews did not threaten to firebomb or carry AK47's.
When did the great American Eagle get replaced with a large Yellow Chicken? Why do we fear these Islamists? When did we bestow rights upon all immigrants with boots on our ground? When they start shooting will they continue to demand democratic rights?
They attack us and we respond by passing the Patriot bill and the Homeland security bill. They kick us and we go bang our own heads into the wall. Are willing to give up freedom to maintain harmony? History tells us this won't work.
Than God for Pastors like Mr. Jones who are willing to stand up and cry the alarm! The more he cry the alarm the more Islamic agenda is revealed to the public.
Hey, you spoke Dutch! So you know where I live. Did you already tell us in which country you live? I know you originated from Russia.
Bedankt! jij ook prettige paasdagen! Happy Easter!
Briars wrote:
My point has always been that Pastor Jones looks a lot like John Brown, the abolitionist that touched of the Civil War...
...............................
Yes—I've read your comparison before, Briars, and I believe it is an apt one.
This also brings up another point of how Islam and the free West are regarded so differently. Islam can have homicidal Muslim mobs burning down churches, suicide bombers blowing up markets and schools, and kidnappers beheading respected journalists, and still be regarded *somehow* as legitimate—but if a defender of freedom is a bit loud, or less-than-professional in their demeanor, or is anything short of a recognized scholar of Islam, then they are mocked and sneered at and their concerns utterly discounted.
It is now almost 6 pm on Good Friday Michigan time. I hope Pastor Jones and his group are all right.
The point being overlooked is that a non-violent, staged demonstration of burning a Quran is only guaranteed to be a "breach" of the peace because of the violent nature of Islam. Islam comes with its own codified legal system (Sharia) which merely enforces Islamic principles. All Muslims are required to enforce Sharia unless there are not enough Muslims/Muslims in power to enforce it (Muhammad's doctrine of taysir). To burn a Quaran is a "crime" under Sharia law punishable by death. The question is whether the U.S. legal system and society will allow the enforcement of Sharia law which is at odds with U.S. law.
Maybe we should build grandstand so we can watch the fight? If we charge for the blood letting do we have to furnish medical care for paid customers? Capitalism in action! ( LoL)
The last Grand Mufti (or however it's spelled) of turkey banned bibles, killed thousands of christians While our president did little if anything. Islamic law tells us peace will only come when it is the only law in every land. Sounds like plans for a world wide dictatorship. If we expect these nuts to mellow just because we are trying to make them liberal, we had better look at history. It ain't gonna happen and if we continue to believe this liberal lie the Islamic chickens will roust on your back forty till they can get the entire section. Till shari'ah is like diarrhea and it all over the place.
Three Things:
There is no God but Allah and his prophet
There is no nation but Islam
The is no peace till Shari'ah rule the entire globe and we are all subjected to it.
Conversion by AK 47. The Red Horse of War is ready in the wings waiting for its Islamic ridder.
Pastor Jones did the wrong thing by
burning the koran..it is an offence...
He should have bomb some christen churches
or kill some christen with a AK47...then
nothing will happened..it will not be an offence..
Well what do you think....muslim talking cock..