Suppress free speech in your country, because we can't (won't) control ourselves in ours.
At the heart of Afghan's instability is a self-righteous, "honor"-obsessed lack of self control on the individual and small community level. There can be no stable society where someone always has to die for something -- most of all, for insufficient Sharia in government, for the aim of jihad in all its forms is the imposition of Islamic law. There can be no self-government without self-government; indeed, under these circumstances there can be no government unless the people finally submit to tyranny for the sake of stability. And the Taliban are waiting in the wings to reap the benefit of the instability.
It also contributes to Afghanistan's prolonged poverty. People who are out indulging in an orgy of furious self-pity are not producing wealth. And in this case, they are destroying it, moving the country that much more backwards, save for more American aid to fix self-inflicted wounds.
By the way, you will want to read Petraeus' response as quoted below, which appears to validate Afghans' behavior here, sitting down. "Two killed and dozens hurt in third day of Afghan protests," by Ismail Sameem for Reuters, April 3:
KANDAHAR, Afghanistan (Reuters) – Two policemen were killed and more than 30 people wounded in the southern city of Kandahar on Sunday during the third day of violent protests across Afghanistan against the burning of a Koran by a radical fundamentalist U.S. pastor, officials said.
Violence at earlier demonstrations claimed more than 20 lives. Ten people were killed and more than 80 wounded in Kandahar on Saturday. Seven foreign U.N. staff and five Afghan protesters were killed on Friday after demonstrators overran an office in normally peaceful Mazar-i-Sharif city in the north.
On Sunday, hundreds of people had marched through Kandahar, toward another U.N. office, on the second day of protests in the city after U.S. preacher Terry Jones had supervised the burning of a copy of the Koran in front of about 50 people at a church in Florida on March 20.
"The information I have is that two policemen have been killed and 20 others, including police, protesters and citizens, have been wounded," Ahmad Wali Karzai, head of the Kandahar provincial council, told Reuters.
Another 14 people, including two children, were wounded when protesters seized a gas canister taken from a shop and set it on fire, causing an explosion, Zalmay Ayoubi, the spokesman for the Kandahar provincial governor said.
There were also peaceful demonstrations in Kabul, western Herat city, Jalalabad city in the east and northern Tahar province, and it initially appeared that Sunday's march in Kandahar would also finish without incident.
The governor had promised a strong police presence and many of the morning's demonstrators had drifted away before violence broke out in the early afternoon. [...]
Afghan President Hamid Karzai called on Congress to condemn the burning of the Koran and prevent it from happening again.
Karzai made the request at a meeting with U.S. ambassador Karl Eikenberry and General David Petraeus, the commander of U.S. and NATO forces in Afghanistan, the presidential palace said in a statement.
"The American Congress and Senate must condemn this in clear words, show their stance, and prevent such incidents from happening again," the statement said. [...]
On Sunday, Petraeus joined the condemnation being voiced by many other political and religious leaders, urging Afghans to understand only a small number of people had been disrespectful to the Koran and Islam.
"We condemn, in particular, the action of an individual in the United States who recently burned the Holy Koran," Petraeus said in a statement, which was also signed by NATO's senior civilian representative, ambassador Mark Sedwill.
"We also offer condolences to the families of all those injured and killed in violence which occurred in the wake of the burning of the Holy Koran," he said.
No free will implied on the part of the actual participants.
Around 1,000 people blocked the main highway from Kabul to Jalalabad earlier on Sunday and burned U.S. flags.
"We want the preacher who burned the holy Koran to get a severe punishment," said 20-year-old protester Jalil Ahmad. "He is not a human being, he is a brain-dead animal." ...
'Blasphemy' really gets them going!
Muslims, at over a billion people, are the most backward section of humanity, increasingly despised by the rest of the world for their barbaric primitiveness.
The suggestion that their backwardsness and intellectual worthlessness is the result of a contrick played by a psychopathic charlatan must be just too much to bear without an explosion of rage. Over the centuries they've sacrificed their original cultures and all hope of progress on the altar of mohammedanism, and now their adherence to their 'Prophet' and his Koran are the only things they've got left. Take those away and they are nothing.
"We want the preacher who burned the holy Koran to get a severe punishment," said 20-year-old protester Jalil Ahmad. "He is not a human being, he is a brain-dead animal." ...
What an apt description for these brain dead Afghan parasites who contribute nothing of benefit to humanity.
If Obama thought that his latest Pavlovian submission to those Afghanistan Muslims would work:
"Angry Mob Torches Obama Effigy in Day Three of Koran-Burning Protests"
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/angry-mob-torches-obama-effigy-in-day-three-of-koran-burning-protests/
Karzai - you are an Idiot!
Your mostly ignorant citizenry Burns the American Flag, Our Leaders in efigy, etc.
And YOU demand that the US change their basic freedom of expression and speech laws to protect symbols of a religion that CANNOT stand up to redicule and basic challenges..
Christian, Jewish, Buddhists, etc, religions have ALL been ridiculed in this country at one time or another and the citizens here have a "right" to present their views against or suppoprt of any belief system, laws, or actions as long as it is peaceful.
But for some reason there is NOT the violent reactions that YOUR Islamic beliefs generate. The killing of innocents to show your discontent. YOUR ISLAM is a very "insecure" in that it has to KILL anyone who does not belong of follow the SICK and EVIL Tenants of ISLAM..
ISLAM even perpetuates the KILLING of one group of Muslims against another group of Muslims.
Karzai - Do your citizenry a favor and start educating the people of Afghanistan and bring them into the 21st century set of "civilized" values instead of the 7th century values.
Petraeus should resign command. He is no longer fit to defend the Constitution he is sworn to uphold and protect. His words indicate that he has capitulated and is now a tool of the grand jihad. A bunch of juvenile, illiterate, pedophile-worshipping, Satan-following, sand people who wish to kill anyone and everyone who disagrees with their hateful, nihilistic, knuckle-dragging, mouth-breathing, neanderthal ideology slaughters people because a book of plagiarism and lies/hate is burned in a free country, and we, the USA are supposed to stifle our rights and freedoms? It would be no sin, nor a great disservice to mankind, to reduce this country to rubble and render it uninhabitable for thousands of years. I am sick of this BS.
"Suppress free speech in your country, because we can't (won't) control ourselves in ours."
Exactly what they are saying.
Notice that when some Muslims do awful things Muslims are quick to caution us infidels not to associate their act with all Muslims, but when one man burns one copy of a Koran in Florida it's "Death to America!", "Death to Israel!" and a riot occurs with Muslims killing infidels who had nothing to do with the Koran burning.
Are the imams in Afghan or even in the USA telling their fellow Muslims not to blame all infidels and to condemn these senseless murders of innocents? Rational fair-mindedness, I suspect, is just for us infidels.
The wall of lies continues to crumble.
Censorship is not acceptable. Censorship and denial of the right of free speech and expression in the name of the invalid, savage, foreign law of Islam, Sharia, will be doubly unacceptable. I urge Congress not to even think about obeying these demands.
.''.latest Pavlonian submission.''.
Saki would be proud of that twist Thomas Pellow.
Well said.
Take "A radical fundamentalist U.S. pastor," multiply by 100, and multiply that by 1000--and you begin to approximate the lethal toxicity and hateful virulence of many of the World's Islamic preachers, imams, mullahs, qadis, and clerics.
"We also offer condolences to the families of all those injured and killed in violence which occurred in the wake of the burning of the Holy Koran," [Petraeus] said.
NOW he really is General "Betray US".
General Petraeus has just shown he has no understanding of the First Amendment. Terry Jones hurt no one. He didn't destroy the property of others. He didn't torch a mosque. He didn't lay a finger on a Muslim. He didn't look to outlaw Islam. He didn't do anything to prevent Islam from being practiced in the US. He let his views be known.
This violence didn't occur in the wake of the burning of a book in Florida. It occurred in the wake of Karzai's statements. He could have kept his stupid mouth shut.
And all Hussein O had to say about this latest episode in muslim savagery was to attack "desecration of sacred scripture." So what happens to Bibles that the ayatollah, pak and saud terrorist entities confiscate?
FYI: that Florida preacher leads less than 4 dozen dopes. He also uses them as free labor in a furniture store that is run to support the church. Yah, that means: the church lacks tax-free status, and the preacher has no special status under US or Florida law. Yet the enemy holds him up as a US emissary.
I have ChrisTV pay service, and pak and iran's "press tv" are showing long clips of the terror protests. The Murderers are making no efforts to disguise themselves. Clearly, they are heros to local savages.
Nation-destruction please.
Ahh, I forgot--write that all down, multiplied to the Tenth Power.
Afghan President Hamid Karzai called on Congress to condemn the burning of the Koran and prevent it from happening again.
Karzai would make Muhammad=Allah proud. Congress is 14 centuries ahead of Karzai. Sorry, ol' boy, we're not interested in your condemnations of our modern, natural human freedoms. Go rotate your 7th c. Moon-god's Kabba stone.
Better yet, close down all your mosques and silence their evil imams who incite your people to riot, and prevent it from happening again.
Terry Jones is not my idea of "a radical fundamentalist U.S. pastor," no. Fred Phelps' is the frothy, fermented brew of perverse iniquity that serves as the base unit of the comparisons I make.
Huh?
How about if the United States tells him not to go to mosque any longer?
Asking us to abridge freedom of speech and thereby promote Islamic supremacism is so far out of bounds that I don't have words except the vilest curse words.
So Karzai wants us to prevent Koran burning?
How about banning the Koran? With no Korans in the country there will be nothing to burn.
Two can play this game.
Tell Karzai's people to quit buring Christian bibles and perhaps the Florida Christian church will stop burning Korans.
There is no major difference between Karzai and the Taliban. They both support sharia, marital rape, death penalty for "blasphemers" and apostates, and so on. Karzai is the leader of a nation ruled by sharia. Unfortunately we allowed that barbaric primitive corrupt scumbag thug into power.
It is time we pulled out all aid of any kind in Afghanistan. It is a basket case, a lost cause; it can only drag us down and divert resources away from places where we could make a difference. Whatever one wants to argue, the fact remains that ordinary Afghans will kill and riot against non-Muslims at the drop of a hat. The security of all personnel there, military or otherwise, is in jeopardy because of ordinary Afghans, about half of whom are the Taliban and most of the rest of whom, are capable of cold-blooded murder over any piece of news or gossip they hear that is completely unrelated to the people they choose to kill. We should have a small military force devoted to killing Taliban and Al-Qaeda and anyone who helps them, and that's it. No more money, no more valuable lives wasted on this Islamic sharia hell-hole. Actions have consequences, and it is time Afghans were made to take responsibility and pick up the costs for their extravagant devotion to sharia. If the mass murder and mayhem we see from ordinary Afghans against the UN aid workers is not enough to warrant at least a retaliation by withdrawal of service, funding, etc., then what is?
I came across this recently:
QUOTE:
Una Moore is an international development professional based in Afghanistan. She blogs about security, aid and civil society.
http://www.undispatch.com/this-attack-is-different
This Attack is Different
April 1, 2011
Una Moore
Category: Security
Topics: Afghanistan
Mark asked me to respond to today’s attack on UN staff in Mazar-i-Sharif. This post is my initial reaction.
Kabul, Afghanistan – Foreigners have been killed in Afghanistan before, and today’s attack was not the first fatal attack on UN staff. But it was different than previous fatal attacks. Very different. The killers were ordinary residents of a city deemed peaceful enough to be one of the first places transferred to the control of Afghan security forces. The men who broke into the UN compound, set fires and killed eight people weren’t Taliban, or henchmen of a brutal warlord, or members of a criminal gang. They weren’t even armed when the protests began –they took weapons from the UN guards who were their first victims.
Foreigners committed to assisting in the rebuilding of Afghanistan have long accepted the possibility that they might die at the hands of warring parties, but this degree of violence from ordinary citizens is not something most of us factored into our decision to work here.
Tonight, the governor of Balkh province (of which Mazar-i-Sharif is the capital) is telling the international media that the men who sacked the UN compound were Taliban infiltrators. That’s rubbish. Local clerics drove around the city with megaphones yesterday, calling residents to protest the actions of a small group of attention-seeking, bigoted Americans. Then, during today’s protest, someone announced that not just one, but hundreds of Korans had been burned in America. A throng of enraged men rushed the gates of the UN compound, determined to draw blood. Had the attackers been gunmen, they would likely have been killed before they could breach the compound.
I was sharing a meal with aid worker friends when I heard the news. Phones began buzzing. Security officers were demanding that my friends return to their compounds immediately. Cars had already been sent to retrieve them. Lockdown was in effect.
This is not the beginning of the end for the international community in Afghanistan. This is the end. Terry Jones and others will continue to pull anti-Islam stunts and opportunistic extremists here will use those actions to incite attacks against foreigners. Unless we, the internationals, want our guards to fire on unarmed protesters from now on, the day has come for us to leave Afghanistan.
END QUOTE
From Sam Harris:
QUOTE (my emphasis):
Islam | War | March 27, 2011
Have We Lost the War in Afghanistan?
The prognosis on the war in Afghanistan seems increasingly dismal. In his review of Bing West’s new book, The Wrong War: Grit, Strategy, and the Way Out of Afghanistan, (which I have not yet read), Dexter Filkins discusses the challenges posed by Afghan culture and religion:
"Time after time, West shows the theory of counterinsurgency scraping up against the hard and jagged ground of the real Afghanistan. In one instance, he examines the work of a group of American soldiers and civilians, known as a provincial reconstruction team, whose job was to provide development assistance to Afghan locals in Asadabad (A-Bad to the Americans) in eastern Afghanistan. It was overseen by a battalion known as the 1-32 and commanded by a lieutenant colonel named Mark O’Donnell. In June 2009, after the reconstruction team had been working there for three years, an American supply truck blew a tire on the main road. A crowd of Afghans gathered, and then suddenly a grenade exploded, killing and maiming several Afghans. A riot ensued. “Kill the Americans!” the Afghans shouted. “Protect Islam!” Only later did a videotape of the incident show clearly that an Afghan had tossed the grenade.
About this, West writes:
“For three years, the provincial reconstruction team had lived in a compound a few blocks from the scene of the tragedy. The P.R.T. had paid over $10 million to hire locals, who smiled in appreciation. Every time a platoon from 1-32 patrolled through town, they stopped to chat with storekeepers and to buy trinkets and candy to give to the street urchins. Yet the locals had turned on the soldiers in an instant. That the townspeople in A-Bad who profited from American protection and projects would believe the worst of O’Donnell’s soldiers — whom they knew personally — suggested that the Americans were tolerated but not supported, regardless of their good works and money.”
Is Afghanistan a lost cause?
----------------------------
END QUOTE
Lilredbird,
And what are the chances that Congress will take a firm stand in favor of our First Amendment?
Absolutely.
If we respond at all to their bullying demand, it should be only to explain that we believe in the right to FREE SPEECH and FREEDOM from government interference in religious expression.
Let's stop apologizing for the hard-won rights our military has defended for over 234 years, one of which is freedom of expression, both religious and political.
It's our (USA) guarantee of free religious expression that has brought so many of these Muslims to our country in the first place. I'm proud of our country for sheltering apostate ex-Muslim refugees who try to escape the Islamic Death Cult, but more than worried about the forces in our government who kowtow to the bullying and childish demands of those who come here and continue to follow the psychoprophet.
Grow up, Muslims. If you can burn Bibles and American Flags, why can't we burn the Koran? The playground expression, "You can dish it out but you can't take it" comes to mind.
"Afghan President Hamid Karzai called on Congress to condemn the burning of the Koran"
No doubt there are those in Congress and in the Obama Administration who would support this. We need to find out who they are and relieve them of their positions in the next election.
"We want the preacher who burned the holy Koran to get a severe punishment," said 20-year-old protester Jalil Ahmad.
Qur'an says non-Muslims will be punished with hooked rods of iron
Quran 22:19 to 22:22:
Do I understand correctly that NATO pay out wads of cash to relatives of allegedly innocent civilians killed by NATO bullets, etc?
I presume that the UN will be expecting wads of cash from the Afgan government to give the the relatives killed.
Afghan President Hamid Karzai called on Congress to condemn the burning of the Koran and prevent it from happening again.
........................
Why should a democratic country curtail the rights of her own citizens because barbaric Muslims can't seem to control themselves?
More:
"The American Congress and Senate must condemn this in clear words, show their stance, and prevent such incidents from happening again," the statement said.
........................
And here Karzai makes it clear that this is *a demand*, not a request.
More:
On Sunday, Petraeus joined the condemnation being voiced by many other political and religious leaders, urging Afghans to understand only a small number of people had been disrespectful to the Koran and Islam.
........................
This *is not* the message Petraeus should be sending. Whether he agrees with Jones' actions or not, he should make it clear that what he did is completely legal, and is in fact fully *protected under the First Amendment*.
By emphasizing the "small number" of people responsible, Petraeus may believe that he is showing that most Americans "respect" Islam and the Qu'ran.
As Muslims hear it, though, it just becomes inexplicable that we don't crush the rights of this small number of people—after all, it's what a Muslim country would do.
More:
"We condemn, in particular, the action of an individual in the United States who recently burned the Holy Koran," Petraeus said in a statement, which was also signed by NATO's senior civilian representative, ambassador Mark Sedwill.
........................
Why does Petraeus consider this vile book "Holy"?
More:
"We also offer condolences to the families of all those injured and killed in violence which occurred in the wake of the burning of the Holy Koran," he said.
No free will implied on the part of the actual participants.
........................
No, indeed. Things "occur in the wake" of an earthquake, or a tsunami, or a hurricane. Things do not simply "occur" in Dar-al-Islam in the wake of some guys halfway around the world tossing a couple of Qu'rans on the barbie.
More:
"We want the preacher who burned the holy Koran to get a severe punishment," said 20-year-old protester Jalil Ahmad. "He is not a human being, he is a brain-dead animal." ...
........................
Said by a member of the mob rampaging through the streets attacking and murdering people, and even blowing themselves and their own children up with gas canisters.
Here is something written by Winston Churchill in "The Malakand Field Force", and posted by dumbledoresarmy, as a description of 19th Century Muslim Swat, and which certainly describes these Afghan savages both in the 19th, 20th, 21st, and almost certainly the 22nd Century onwards:
“The inhabitants of these... valleys are of many tribes, but of similar character and condition.
‘Except at the times of sowing and of harvest, a continual state of feud and strife prevails throughout the land.
‘Tribe wars with tribe. The people of one valley fight with those of the next.
‘To the quarrels of communities are added the combats of individuals. Khan assails khan, each supported by his retainers.
‘Every tribesman has a blood feud with his neighbour.
‘Every man's hand is against the other, and all against the stranger.
‘Nor are these struggles conducted with the weapons which usually belong to the races of such development. To the ferocity of the Zulu are added the craft of the Redskin and the marksmanship of the Boer.
‘The world is presented with that grim spectacle, “the strength of civilisation without its mercy.” At a thousand yards the traveller falls wounded by the well-aimed bullet of a breech-loading rifle. His assailant, approaching, hacks him to death with the ferocity of a South-Sea Islander. The weapons of the nineteenth century [update: 21st century] are in the hands of the savages of the Stone Age.”
And we are also aware of a verse in The Young British Soldier written by Rudyard Kipling in 1892, and is so apt for Afghanistan and the savages that populate that godforsaken, morality-challenged, uncivilizable and lawless Islamic cesspit today and for ever:
If you're wounded and alone on Afghanistan's plains
And the women come out to cut up what remains
Jus' roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
And go to your Gawd' like a soldier.
"95 things that fuel Muslim extremism"
(by Hugh Fitzgerald)
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2006/10/fitzgerald-95-things-that-fuel-muslim-extremism.html
Great. Now we're into a phase of *kinetic appeasement.*
Shameful.
They can have their little rule, when they arrange for the establishment of complete freedom of speech and religion in all Islamist-dominated countries, and give back every historic site or former church and temple that once belonged to the Christians and Jews.
The evidence of Muslim societies desecrating churches, temples, Buddhist relics is overwhelming. Perhaps, putting a list together of such desecration will help. After all, there're no attempts to dampen the enthusiasm of Muslims who habitually desecrate religious symbols of non-Muslims.
Here's just one of the pieces of evidence...
From http://www.jihadwatch.org/2005/08/church-desecration-video-serves-as-jihad-fund-raiser.html
[(CNSNews.com) - A violent video showing the desecration of a church and the murder of a Serbian soldier is one of many "jihad" videos currently making the rounds in Western countries to raise funds for Muslim terrorists, according to counter-terrorism experts interviewed by Cybercast News Service.
The graphic footage, stamped Sept. 16, 1995, was videotaped approximately two months before the Dayton Peace Accords, which brought an end to the civil war in Bosnia...]
You know, when Islam-wise people like me talk to say "neutral", "fair-minded", political-correct people, what happens? We present them with all sorts of facts and arguments about the texts of Islam, the goals and verdicts of it's leaders, and many, many atrocious actions of it's followers.
But the "neutral" people, ignore, "relativate", heartily practice tu quoque in response, especially by comparing Quran with Bible, Muslims with Christians, especially in the past. Islam-wise people almost never get through to "neutrals", who anyway almost always are the first to shut the conversation about Islam down. In effect many sort of tell us: Go, scr.. yourself.
OK, if that's how it is, I suggest we Islam-wise people adapt. And we also do some shocking acts, but within the bounds of our principles. Quran-burning is such an action.
If someone now burns a Quran and these "neutrals" with their double standards condemn it, in accordance with Obama and general Petraeus, now we can ignore it, "relativate it", compare Quran-burning with Bible-burning, against which no "neutral" or Muslim in the past ever protested.
And why not? Isn't the Bible just as holy as the Quran? Can the feelings of Christians be hurt freely but not the feelings of Muslims?
Because Terry Jones and Wayne Sapp finally did something drastic, but within the bounds of freedom of speech, I am so grateful to them. Because now if the "neutrals" and Muslims protest, we get the opportunity to treat their complaints about Jones/ Sapp the way they treat ours about Islam and Muslims!
Because they kept ignoring and denying the vast majority of legitimate concerns and complaints by democratic citizens about Islam and Muslims I dare say that Terry Jones and Wayne Sapp were provoked!
To finally resort to some drastic act, because peaceful and nice protest only got them responses of ignoring and disdain, or accusations of hate-speech or fear-mongering, and a lot of ad hominem and even some death-threats!
So if politicians and media and masses of citizens and masses of Muslims did not respond reasonably to reasonable complaints and requests, it is they who provoked Quran-burning, which provoked People-killing by Muslims.
Slim and Nun. Slim just left town, and Nun has gone on a retreat.
If the politicians are pushed into a corner and forced to confront the issue, it should be morbidly entertaining watching them heap condemnation on Jones and ashes of contrition on their own heads and, by extention, ours, without actually calling for the violation of the First Amendment.
Jones is planning another protest, this one outside some mosque in Dearbornistan, for April 22. If he should by chance burn 100 krayons this time, will the mullahs with their bullhorns claim it was a million?
Karzai needs to be told by anyone who still has the stones for the job -- and Petraeus obviously no longer qualifies -- to sit down and shut the hell up before he finds himself with no more road/school/indoor plumbing builders and informed that the next attack on the West that can be identified as originating in Afghanistan will result in the carpet-bombing of that hellhole back to the stone age. Of course nothing of the sort will happen.
Phrase of the Day: "Kinetic appeasement". Heeeeee...
Forget about telling them to stop burning Bibles. How about the Pakis stop burning Christians and their churches? I realize it's their hobby, but burning Korans could quickly become an American tradition! And it's cheap fuel. It makes great kindling for the fireplace.
demsci,
I think a good way to deal with the "neutrals," as you label them, is to present them with basic statistics. Tell them the majority of Muslims want sharia, and show them for example that the majority of Muslim Egyptians, Pakistanis, etc., want apostates to be put to death and adulterers stoned to death. Inform them that the majority of Muslims in the UK want those who criticize Islam to be criminally prosecuted and punished. You can get the information from PEW and WorldPublicOpinion, and other sources online, if you don't already have it.
It's more difficult for them to play relativistic games with the data. And whatever they claim in response, press them for empirical evidence for whatever they say that seems suspect.
No, General BETRAY-US should be court-martialled!
Thanks, Kinana,
OK, Pew, WorldPublicOpinion, thanks.
Oh, I already did or tried to a large extent what you suggested. In Holland now, too, there is this book called "Essays on Islam" with tons of information and arguments. As there are numerous other very informative books about Islam and it's intentions and consequences.
Last saturday some "neutral" expressed his astonishment, and disapprovement, that I was the first adherent to Geert Wilders in the family & friends-group he and I belonged too. Oh, I had my arguments ready, but most of the time people like me get cut off with the well-known relativistic games, the exonerating of the ordinary Muslims, like I was this time too.
But this person was shamed a bit when I pointed out that almost invariably the pattern was that Islam-accusers, with mountains of clues, statistics, good arguments, are eager to talk things true. But that "neutrals", Muslim-defenders, Muslims invariably cut Islam-conversation short, with excuses, hate-speech-disclaimers, relativist-tu-quoque-dead-enders. And that he had just shown that again.
He said he relied on his favorite politicians to think and argue for him and I pointed out to him that those politicians too invariably lose to Islam-wise Muslim-accusers. Not because there was a difference in smartness, but because the Islam-accusers have the much better and more numerous arguments.
Other opponents in debate simply refuse to acknowledge any wrongdoing, any wrong intentions by Muslims, because according to them those also are done and intended by all sorts of other humans.
When I said that Muslims were forfeiting trust, a woman responded that she never trusted anyone anyway. I told her I won the argument anyway, because the testimony of a man counts for twice of that of a woman, in Islam. And she was exonerating Muslims, wasn't she? She laughed at that.
Spare a thought for the forgotten, the four Nepalese security guards who died at their posts at the UN compound in Mazar-i-Sharif.
Jai Mahakali, Ayo Gorkhali
What dhimmi fools put Karzai in charge? It's like appointing a convicted paedophile as head of an orphanage!
If you can find out their names, please tell us.
PS - way, way back, someone here at jihadwatch mentioned a book they had been reading.
John Masters - "Bugles and a Tiger: My Life in the Gurkha Regiment".
I haven't tracked it down yet, but it sounds like it would be a good one.
Here's the 'book review' posted by that long ago jihad watch commenter:
"I read this book well nigh 30 years ago. Like The River War, it evokes a moving image.
"One abiding memory of this book was the cruelty of Afghanis. For instance, captured British soldiers were buried in a hole, with just their heads above ground. This meant that they were tormented by every blood sucking fly, insect and ants. A more cruel way to torment, is hard to imagine. Then again while the captive was still alive, Afghan women would squat over him and urinate into his face.
"Note the contempt of [that is, for - dda] the kaffir. The shear appalling cruel mindset that is Afghan, is difficult to imagine. Death was of course the eventual outcome but what a way to go.
"Nothing much has changed in that bitter land.
"The hatreds that did such cruelty live on, as manifested by the destruction of the Buddhas.
"Here the cruelty was not against living Buddhists in Afghanistan but a contempt and hatred of Buddhists around the world, hurting them by destroying what they revere.
"**Yet, it was the Gurkhas that made the Afghanis run, and the Gurkhas did it without the barbarity that is associated with Islam and its culture** {my emphasis - dda}
Posted by: DP111 at September 15, 2004 6:02 PM.
Maybe we regulars need to start letting each other know which books we have read and which we haven't yet...and sharing book reviews.
The Jihadwatch Book Club...
None of us have the time or energy - or, in some cases, access to the sorts of libraries that contain Really Old Books That Are Out of Print - to read *everything*.
But we can each read something, and share the really juicy bits, properly referenced of course.
Yeah, we'll roll over for you Karzai - you crook, despot of your own people - we'll see you yet being dragged naked through the streets while being beaten with shoes - no virgins for you! Instigator!
Karzai's comment is emblematic of the Muslim mindset: there is no parallel concept similar to our notion of 'freedom of speech' in Islamic thinking or philosophy therefore no way for them to grasp what it means. How naive and ludicrous is his call for Congress to prevent it and he is supposed to be a sophisticated, enlightened example, a partner in peace!? Phtaw!
Further though, in my opinion, this incident is evidence (as if there isn't enough already) for the need for the US to get out of Afghanisatan (typo not intended but I'll leave it anyway!) and leave it to the Taliban who largely have it won and stop wasting American blood and treasure on a futile cause. Ditto Australia.
The war for our freedoms will not be won in foreign fields.
Karzai tells US Congress to repeal the 1st amendment? What are we doing sacrificing our guys for this corrupt, evil little scum?
demsci,
It sounds like you are doing well with the discussions, even if these "neutrals" can be quite stubborn. On almost any topic (besides Islam) people can also, during a conversation, be quite stubborn in their views and in the face of facts contrary to their view. They may think about it more after the conversation, though.
Tell the Afghans to get over it. Where's Karzai telling his people to restrain themselves, rather than telling the congress to curb US citizens' rights?
And tell the Afghans to stop murdering. Stop the double standards, and treat them as if they were held at the same legal and moral standards as our citizens.
The book is called "Bugles and a tiger: a volume of autobiography" by John Masters
The British soldier, Author John Masters "claims"- that
"Tribesmen who captured any soldiers except Moslems, and especially Sikhs or British, would usually castrate and behead them, and both of these operations were frequently done by the women. Sometimes they would torture prisoners with the death of a thousand cuts, pushing grass and thorns into each wound as it was made. Sometimes they would peg the prisoner out and with a stick force his jaws so wide open that he could not swallow, and then the women would urinate in his open mouth till he drowned"
http://www.google.fr/search?tbm=bks&tbo=1&q=Tribesmen+who+captured+any+soldiers+except+Moslems%2C+and+especially+Sikhs+or+British%2C+would+usually+castrate+and+behead+them%2C+and+both+of+these+operations+were+frequently+done+by+the+women.+Sometimes+they+would+torture+prisoners+with+the+death+of+a+thousand&btnG=Chercher+des+livres
________________________________________________________
It sounds to me like Mr. Masters is exagerrating, making up some kinky fantasies of his with Pathan women to prove the "savagery" of the people whom he was fighting. He probably needed desperate mental help or attention when he wrote that book. (Pathan is another name for pashtun, Masters fought against Pashtuns on what is now the pakistani side of the border, not the afghan side, but they are the same ethnic group as Afghans) Pashtuns back then and even now would never let their women go out and touch other men.
__________________________________________________________
And anyway, regarding the soldiers who actually died (presumably in battle, i don't believe the nonsense Masters wrote in his book about castration and urination) Notice thats what happened when you get sent on an "Expedition" THOUSANDS of miles away from home. Brits frankly had no good reason to be in Afghanistan and fighting Afghans while Hui had very good reasons to do so.
When Afghan "volunteers", were found guarding the Uyghur Emirs of the East Turkestan Republic, Hui troops killed all of them, in addition to smashing the British consulate (in which Uyghur fighters were hiding) and some British bystanders were killed by potshots when they decided to treat the battle as a soccer match and spectate.
And During the Yaqub Beg revolt, Hui troops under Ma Anliang and Dong Fuxiang also battled against Afghan and Turkish volunteers, some "interrogation" methods involved skewers being shoved into the Turks.
George W. Hunter, a Christian missionary in Xinjiang, said that Uyghur women worked as prostitutes while Hui women never prostituted.
Quote - "The Turki people are also very poor, and are thus tempted to sell their daughters. For these and other reasons the country is filled with Turki prostitutes, which one would scarcely ever see among the Tungan M-o-h-a-m-m-e-d-a-n-s"
http://www.google.fr/search?hl=fr&tbo=1&tbm=bks&q=The+Turki+people+are+also+very+poor%2C+and+are+thus+tempted+to+sell+their+daughters.+For+these+and+other+reasons+the+country+is+filled+with+Turki+prostitutes%2C+which+one+would+scarcely+ever+see+among+the+Tungan+Mohammedans&btnG=Rechercher&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=
"Tungan" means Hui in the Uyghur language. "Turki" refers to the Uyghurs before they had the name "Uyghur" applied to them by the soviets.
The Hui General Ma Shaowu allowed Hunter and other christian missionaries to set up stations in Xinjiang, while the Uyghur Emir Abdullah (from Kashgar of course) beat up the missionaries and threatened them with death.
the Missionaries clearly had high opinions of Hui people, Ma Shaowu was in complete military and political control of the region and he allowed Christians to proselytize in a muslim area. He was also loyal to the government of the Republic of China.
And many of the Hui veterans who fought in the war against the Uyghurs, Afghans, and Turks under Yaqub Beg, also fought against Western forces in the Boxer Rebellion. Testimony from foreigners in Beijing revealed that they were all pissing out and frightened of the Hui troops, who inflicted most of the casualties in the siege in Beijing and won a battle at Langfang against Germans outside the city as well.
The German Kaiser Wilhelm II was reduced to panic when he heard Hui troops were deployed against his forces (the Kaiser hated asians but was a big fan of islam, i imagine his puny brain churned when he learned asian muslims existed)
The Bottom line is that Afghans do not represent muslims or islam, they represent Afghanistan, and many other muslims fought against them and none of us behave like them at all. I don't know why you guys are complaining about missionaires being barred, when Hui leaders let in so many missionaries.
And during the Boxer War Hui troops did not kill civilians, commit rape, or break agreements, western forces did all three to innocent civilians, there were reports of German, British (australian too), Russian, French and others bayoneting Chinese women, girls, and raping them to death in Tianjin and Beijing. Some British Indian sepoys were no doubt involved as well.
The Hui General Ma Fulu was martyred at the gates of Beijing, trying to stop the western forces (which promptly committed mass rape and murder) from entering the city
Some lies were spread by western missionaries, who claimed that Hui troops under Dong Fuxiang in Suiyuan were going to massacre them, requesting western troops, upon investiation, no such event was found to have occured.
The Onus is on YOU, as a westerner, to prove you are civilized to Hui people, not the other way around. Hui leaders let tons of christian missionaries into China, housed western travelers, and we also fought against westerners who committed mass rape and murder, while none of those crimes were committed by Hui troops. Don't even try to say "its a m-o-h-a-m-m-e-d-a-n saying it why should I trust his word"
the atrocities by western forces in China is well documented by western historians. Go pull out Diana Preston's book on the Boxer Rebellion. Go pull out any other neutral historians book. Read about the atrocities commited in the name of western civilization, and read about the Hui defenders in the city. Its disgusting when you claim that Hui people have the burden of proving being civilized, when Hui people have acted in a civilized manner and westerners have not.
so if you want to talk about afghan savagery and how its related to islam better talk about western savagery first and how its NOT related to islam, and how Hui troops fighting against the rapists, murderers, and thieves did not commit any of these crimes.
Why are you trying to shove all the bad behavior on us which you did yourselves? Your forces behaved very much like the Afghans.
You revere, admire and follow the teachings of warlord, slaver, rapist and liar, Mohammed the Mad One (who in many ways reminds me of another very, very evil person, the power-hungry cruel and greedy and violent and utterly amoral Chairman Mao, who was responsible for the deaths of millions of Chinese). You are proud of belonging to his Mob. I assume you pray five times a day, bowing down to the black rock in Arabia under which dwells the infernal rock-spider 'allah', war-demon of the Arabs, who is worshipped by incessant shedding of human blood.
So, given the adage 'as is the master, so are his followers' I must say that I **do not** and *cannot* and *will not* trust you.
Anyway, we are not talking about Hui Muslims in this thread we are talking about Afghan Muslims, who have been behaving exactly as Muslims have behaved in all sorts of other places and times. I see no reason whatever to disbelieve Masters' account. You accuse him of lying...classic turnspeak. It is Muslims that have a loooong track-record of telling monstrous lies, again, following the example of their founder.
Did the foreign troops in China during the Boxer Rebellion ritualistically behead people whilst chanting religious slogans, as Mohamemdans in Afghanistan (and elsewhere) behead people whilst chanting 'allahu akbar'??
Tu quoque doesn't fly, in this forum.
The point is that the evil deeds that Mohammedans commit against non-Muslims in Afghanistan and elsewhere are clearly committed in conformity with the example of Mohammed and the teachings of the Islamic texts. The pre-Islamic culture of the region known as Afghanistan was far superior to the Muslim barbarism that now enslaves its peoples and drives them crazy.
Sure, other groups of people do and have done evil things.
But only Islam institutionalises and sacralises evil. Only Islam is the religion of blood and war.
I think Masters was inflicted with some sort of mental problem. Pashtuns follow Pashtunwali, a strict tribal code. They would Never, Ever, let their women get withint 10 feet of non pashtun men, they never, ever let pashtun women marry non pashtun men, and certainly would not let them touch, castrate non pashtun men or piss on them.
He probably had some sort of urine fetish and fantasized about Pashtun women.
And now that I checked, I notice his silly stupidity fetish about pashtun women got copied into several other books as well.
http://www.google.fr/search?hl=fr&tbo=1&tbm=bks&q=pathan+women+urinate+mouth&btnG=Rechercher&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=
If you tell a lie 1000 times it becomes the truth, thats what happened here with Mr. Masters fantasticly fake story about female urine.
__________________________________________________________
William Scott Ament, an American missionary, declared that foreign troops were fighting in the name of christianity against "heathens". And Guess what cheap tactic was used by missionaries in china? They used the fact that due to unequal treaties between china and the west, christians were immune from prosecution, taxes and property seizure, so tons of bandits and criminals in China converted to christianity to avoid prosecution. Christians could also seize land from "Heathens" at will.
The Hui troops in Beijing, were from hundreds of miles away from their home province of Gansu, they weren't fighting for Islam, they didn't have to come out and protect the mostly polythiest people in Beijing, they weren't getting extra pay, they weren't getting converts, but they stayed and fought.
Most Han who convert to Islam do so to marry Hui spouses. Most of them are female, although some men are brave enough to go to a lower social status (in the eyes of their family) and defy tradition about males never deviating from family tradition, and convert to Islam to marry. On the other hand, alot of criminals in imperial china converted to christianity to avoid prosecution. You said people convert to Islam to satisfy their "darkest desires", care to explain how thats the case here?
And don't even get me started on the Russians, they had none and still have no interest in converting others to their religion, their main objective was to loot, plunder, and kill, which they did in Manchuria, almost exterminating ethnic Manchus in their own homeland.
And Don't give me that crap about Mr. Mao. Most of the muslim Generals in the Chinese army opposed Mao.
The government of the Republic of China AKA Taiwan, is the government whose military Ma Fulu's brother, sons, and nephews served in. His brother was Ma Fuxiang, who also served in the Boxer war, as did many other muslim officers whose families still served in the military in Taiwan and China as well. They could have just bombarded the foreigners in Beijing to dust with their krupp artillery and slaughtered all of them, they didn't.
They didn't rape a single western woman, not a single source, western or Chinese, mentions missionary women being raped by any of the Chinese forces. They either killed them or let them slip away.
And India also disputes territory with the Republic of China (Taiwan) as well as the Communist PRC, all Chinese position on India is the same regardless of whether we live in the mainland or on Taiwan. Therefore if someone from Taiwan starts out about India holding arunachal pradesh it would be very dumb if you think hes a communist.
I assume that all the barbs at India led you to assume i am a Mao supporter. go read up on history before assuming.
This is an image of territory Taiwan disputes with other countries, in the southwest area is the part disputed with India.
http://img84.imageshack.us/i/rocadministrativeandcla.jpg/sr=1
If you think any verbal attacks on india on my part have anything to do with "Chairman Mao", your knowledge of international politics is very poor.
India still treats women in a third world manner, alot of girls from northeast india, from Manipur, who look like East Asians, not like brown skinned Indians, suffer from rape at the hands of Indians in delhi and other big cities, since they belong to ethnic minority they are easy targets. This article's main picture features these northeastern (manipuri) women protesting the rape
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/27/world/asia/27india.html
There are many separatists movements in India, the only two that get media publicity are the kashmiris, and the maoists in central India, but the Assamese and Manipuris say they are under severe discrimination by Indians and want independence. Both of them are not muslim at all.
Manipuris resemble East asians and are sometimes treated racistly by dravidian indians. They declared their independence hours before India actually became independent, and were forcibly joined to the Indian state.
http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/04/02/2147174/as-india-rises-northeast-state.html
But the Assamese are the same race as other Indians, brown skinned, yet they still want to separate, which says that Indias problems go alot deeper than racism as well. A photo of one of their leaders is on this article
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4129254.stm
Some of these Assamese separtists flee to Yunnan province in China to seek Chinese support.
Both the indian government, and the burmese junta, which is allied to India, attack and kill these people for their separatist goals. The west acts like its deaf and dumb, ignoring the abuse of these people, not saying a word. They go to China because thats the only place where they can get material support.
The Tibetans get 24/7 media treatment, but the Nagas of Manipur and Assamese get literally ZERO. Its like the world is saying they are animals so its okay to abuse them while Tibetans are first class citizens of the world.
"Horse" just never stops. The issue here is the homicidal madness of his coreligionists, done in the name of his own faith.
Does he have any problems with these savage actions? It doesn't appear to be the case.