Most Pakistanis grieve for Osama bin Laden

Battle of Tours wrote:

Frankly, I expected more teeth-gnashing, hate-fest riots throughout the Islamolands, including Londonistan and Parisistan, but they've been strangely quiet except for some Hate-America riots in Pakistan. Could it be that they feel themselves 'subdued'...
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Well, yes, I believe so, Battle of Tours.

Historically, Muslims have been "up in arms" about just about everything—cartoons, novels, Qur'an toastings—but become strangely quiet in the wake of an actual drubbing.

The displays of rage are mostly an attempt to intimidate, and it isn't easy to intimidate Navy Seals.

So far, Osama can't be enjoying that swim in the sea. Plus all those crabs and fishes nibbling on his toes.

Indeed, Tanstaafl ...and there's already enough toxic waste being dumped into the oceans. Hey I was really hoping that bin Laden's body could have been dropped directly into an active volcano sending his remains straight to hell; and then they wouldn't have polluted the ocean or poisoned any precious sea life.

Jim,
an OT question to you: I watched a YouTube debate the other day between Douglas Murray and Yasmin Alibhai-Brown (BritishNeoCon YouTube account, very interesting for people who care), in which Douglas suggested something like that immigrants should be allowed to come to UK only if they want to assimilate into the country's cultural fabric and she answered with dismay: "I don't at all care about the British intense drink-based culture"
What I wanted to ask, is why this abyssmally stupid person, who is evidently not British by birth and who is not able to see anything else in the British culture (which I admire, and which many of my prominent fellow citizens have admired for decades, if not centuries) - apart from Brits' ability to drink alcohol, - is not only allowed to come to your country (which is wrong as such, given the circumstances), but also allowed to get her time in the air, pouring her bullshit into people's ears?!!
(Rethorical question, I guess. But then I have a question to Americans - what's going on in US? I followed the FoxNews link somebody gave the other day, for Glenn Beck speaking about Israel. In the end of this video he talked about Mexican-American studies' curriculum in Tuscon, and I bothered to look up the info on his website, and I simply couldn't believe my eyes! It must be a large-scale conspiracy to destroy the Western world, if kids are taught such things at schools nowadays.)

Actually, these are not only rethorical questions - I honestly (not being a part of a democratical society) can't understand what's going on there on your side of the planet? Why did you become so self-destructive, Westerners? Is it the pattern any democracy should follow at the end of the day?!!

"The doormat class."

I like that very much. It's vivid and smart and accurate. Hope it catches on. I'll do my part. I'm going to use it as often as I can.

Nina wrote:

Actually, these are not only rethorical questions - I honestly (not being a part of a democratical society) can't understand what's going on there on your side of the planet? Why did you become so self-destructive, Westerners? Is it the pattern any democracy should follow at the end of the day?!!
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I know you were asking London Jim, Nina, but I hope you don't mind my chiming in here.

The West has always been, to a greater or lesser extent, capable of self-criticism. This is, in fact, one of her greatest strengths. Most of our great course-corrections—the abolition of slavery, rights for women, compulsory education—have been the result of deep societal soul-searching, and brave people who have not been afraid to publicly criticize their own societies.

But many of the recent forms it has taken—especially since about the 1960s—have become increasingly self-destructive; where criticism is not meant to spur any sort of reform, but to destroy society outright, in an orgy of often unearned guilt.

"The Suicidal Left: Civilizations and their Death Drives"

http://www.americanthinker.com/2006/02/the_suicidal_left_civilization.html

This is by Vasko Kohlmayer, who grew up, as you did, in a communist society—he defected from Communist Czechoslovakia at the age of 19.

Here's another article which touches on some of these factors:

"Self-Destruction and the West"

http://frontpagemag.com/2010/10/01/self-destruction-and-the-west/

I'm sure other posters have further articles to suggest. But this is intrinsically difficult to understand, because it is *so mad*.

There is certainly still room for improvement in the West, but you would never know from her internal critics that the modern West has spawned the freest, most prosperous societies *in human history*.

Finally, you ask if this self-destruction always eventually befalls democracies. Well, to be candid, I have to say in the strictly historical sense that I don't know—this is a unique point in history—true democracies have never succeeded before the modern era.

But do I believe that the best societies created by man have to succumb to self-hatred and unearned guilt, and fall to vicious, barbaric ideologies *like Islam*?

*I do not*.

Oh, I finally get it - Muslim heaven is really hell. Why it's hell for the virgins is obvious. But also the male "shahid" isn't having much fun with 72 ever regenarating virgins. They never become pro, it's always a painful experience, and rememnering how it was the last gazzillion times they are probably not very welcoming either. And with 72 such "wives" he probably has to do it several times a day so as to not be accused of neglect.

This is a very good question and very important for people living in democracies to ponder because if the answer is that there's something inherent in democracy that must lead it on a path to self-destruction, then democracy isn't a viable political order, which will be a very grim conclusion for mankind indeed.

I don't think democratic societies must become self-destructive. I think the self destructive pattern we see isn't so much a result of democracy, but to a great extent of neo-Marxist ideology, of cultural Marxism. It's not quite a result, but rather it has a purpose - to gradually transform Western societies into socialist or communist societies. It's not the old classical Marxism that deals only with the economic order, but an ideology that includes also social and cultural order.

I know I mention his name too often, but you people really have to read about Antonio Gramsci. He's the father of the concept of cultural hegemony and also suggested a strategy for gradual cultural revolution. He became increasingly popular in Western academic circles since the 50s onward, and influenced many central thinkers. Since you mention the school curriculum exposed on the Glenn Beck program, there were other pretty scary stuff exposed there regarding indoctrination and the education system, such as a teacher talking about how to teach Marxist ideas to school children (it doesn't really matter what you think about Glenn Beck in general. We're talking about documented material). That comes directly from Gramsci who thought taking over the education system and using it to subvert, undermine the status quo and teach Marxist ideas was of central importance. The entire strategy he suggested is simply happening before our eyes for the last decades. When I first read his ideas I couldn't believe my eyes.

It's also true that, like gravenimage said, there is an inherent component of self-criticism in democracy, and with time it could evolve into an exaggeration, destructive self-hatered rather than self criticism. Perfection is impossible for human beings, and while we try to always better our societies we might over emphasize our past mistakes or current faults, see only what's wrong with us and miss everything that's good. But the US, for instance, has existed as a democracy with this inherent self-criticism for a couple of centuries, yet until the last few decades it didn't evolve into self-hatered and self-destruction, which is why I think it isn't democracy that's causing is, but maybe just facilitating it due to lack of awareness, and it is really an intentional process of destruction of the existing order to replace it with another order.

How right you are about Chinese glee over America's woes. I read their language and know that official China is not America's friend by any stretch of the imagination, and it takes seriously its role as the last, best hope for 20th century totalitarianism. I, for one, think that the Clintons and a few politicians of both parties should be jailed for treason following the granting of permanent MFN status to Beijing back in the '90's. I strongly suspect that a bit of hard-nosed investigative digging might find a bit more to the donations that Clinton got in 1996. But, then again, China's in trouble if America defaults on its loans, which is a real possibility.

I believe our response to 9/11 should have been to quietly rebuild our human intelligence capabilities to the point where we could have pulled a wet operation on UBL and Mullah Omar. The wars in Afghanistan and Iraq were costly and counterproductive.

Nina, we in the West are so self-destructive because we let the Marxists steal our media and academy.

I agree Traeh, El-Hassan was reduced to mindless babble before he even finished his opening statement and it got no better the further along the debate went. His attempts to persuade us that the earlier verses cancel out the later verses was at the same time both pitiful and hilarious.
I don't know how many more of these clowns can keep coming up to try their hand a making Robert squirm, but they are not short in number, only in credibility.

As you know, all societies become self-destructive to some extent or other. That's just the nature of things. Evil, illness, error, and so on. Democracy only becomes destructive when it extends to areas where it doesn't belong, for example, to cultural life. For example we don't and shouldn't vote on what books may be published, art shown, religion believed, science studied, etc. Yet in this day and age we do vote on schooling, though schooling is part of cultural life. We have something called "school boards," political bodies that in a variety of ways politically deform culture and enforce majoritarian and statist views on anyone not wealthy enough to opt out. The intervention of the democratic state into the running of schools is an example of democracy becoming self-destructive. I used to complain about this 25 years ago and some people laughed as if I were referring to a polka-dotted platypus when I talked about choice in schooling. Now school choice movements are pressing advances everywhere. They are imperfect, but going in the right direction of increasing freedom. However, Islam certainly poses a challenge to the whole school choice movement. Islam poses a problem for any kind of freedom and any free society.

@Doom-and-gloom, to Nina: This is a very good question and very important for people living in democracies to ponder because if the answer is that there's something inherent in democracy that must lead it on a path to self-destruction, then democracy isn't a viable political order, which will be a very grim conclusion for mankind indeed.

There are times when societies enabled by self-criticism must face their demons. In our democratic free countries, that 'demon' is a return to some sort of Feudal society championed as being some sort of 'Utopian' ideal. Marx was one of those champions, as in retrospect (and retrograde) was Muhammad, who wanted to collectivize society into 'submissive' drones, or mujahideen, for the glory worshiped by the collective (Communism, or Islam, both similar though different), to subsume the individual to ideology, even if it means killing him. Gulag did a pretty job of killing, as did the "Great Leap" in China, as did 1400 years of Jihad. They kill to promote their 'collective' ideology, and the victim of all this is the individual, the ordinary person, intellectuals who dare think about freedom, and human freedoms, human rights in general. So when Western democracies free countries began importing masses of Muhammedans into their midst, they were enacting a 'collective' dream of 'Utopia' where the collectivism subjugation of humanity will bow to some social 'ideal'. This was as true of the Bolshevik revolution as it was for Muhammad's caliphate conquering all the Middle East, all of North Africa, and quite a bit into Central Asia and the Far East. But Communism never had the 'religious' zeal of Islam, so though it made inroads here and there, and eventually largely abandoned, Islam remains a formidable force to whip people into a collective frenzy for Muhammad. That's how we came to this sad state of affairs, where we defeated Communism's collective ideology, we are still posed by Islam's collective ideology, where the individual human is abrogated by Muhammad's mad dreams of glory and conquest for his 'Allah'. As I wrote here how this works out in liberal democratic society, how it is the vanity of the liberal Left to court 'brinkmanship' with Islamism, to their peril.

Democracy is a viable political order if it watches out for our constitutionally protected human rights under the rule of law. That is the key test of democracy, if and only if, they can preserved the social order by protecting our individual human rights. The rest is history and social evolution, something Islam will never, ever understand. I think Islam is dying, why it is screaming in pain and twitching all over, though it doesn't know it yet. We are witnessing the death throes of the most primitive theo-political, enslaving collectivism of the planet, and most violent that ever existed in its 1400 years history. I project this 'demon' is already dead, but it still does not know it. Time and steady pressure, intelligent democratic freedoms and constitutional rule of law, consistent opposition, and it will stop dead. Just a matter of time, the "self-destruction" is not ours but Islam's. That's the big picture, I'm calling it.

The thing that struck me about the poll was how schizophrenic Pakis are. On one hand, 49% think the incident was staged (i.e. Osama was not killed in this attack) whereas 26% think it's real. Otoh, 51% are sad @ his death, while 11% are happy.

Just trying to co-relate these 2 results, I'm assuming that the 26% who think it's real has to include all who are happy, and therefore can only include some of those who are sad. So of the people who are sad @ his death, only 15% are those who think it's for real. (yeah, yeah, I know that there is a possibility that the 11% are astute liars, but that's another story; for the time being, I'm assuming that they are Christians, Hindus and other respondents) So in other words, 36% of the people think that it's staged, and that he's either still alive or died a while ago, but are nonetheless sad about this operation.

Don't try figuring how the Mohammedan mind (and I use the term very loosely) works!

Hi Nina! Sorry to be so slow in replying, but it was late last night that I read it, and I knew immediately that I was 'out of depth' in trying to furnish you wîth a worthy reply. The likes of Douglas Murray are far better equipped with the tools of the political debate than I, a struggling tradesman.
Thankfully Gravenimage stepped into the breech while I was dithering over my reply. .and lended me some food for thought. .reminding me of the journey of the tribes of Israel from the foot of Mount Sinai to the here-and-now of Eilat. They have done well. They have persevered against all odds and endured centuries of calamity and unjust persecution. The man upstairs keeps his covenants it seems.

Graven, thank you for shouldering that weight, and with your familiar, star-spangled cogency.

London JIm

you identify yourself as 'a struggling tradesman'.

In other words, to borrow an expression from my *other* favourite popular 20th century author, you're a Hobbit.

If you find yourself getting discouraged, read G K Chesterton: the two poems entitled "The Battle of Lepanto" and "The Ballad of the White Horse"; and the novel "The Flying Inn" which, believe it or not, though written in 1914, is about a small group of people in an Islamified England, struggling to reverse that Islamification.

If Chesterton had been alive today, he would have been in the EDL or in March for England, and probably raising the alarm in the ranks of the Royal Society of St George, as well. And he'd have been marching right at the front of every rally; when 'Tommy Robinson' rushed at the 'Muslims against Crusaders' to try to haul down the Black Flag of Jihad, I fancied I saw the soul of G K Chesterton (side by side with that of that 'Catholic atheist' Oriana Fallaci) leaning over the parapets of Heaven and cheering him on. Chesterton would have been at that black flag to have it down, too, had he ever seen such an appalling thing in the streets of London.

Here's a poem from 'The Flying Inn':

Who Goes Home?

"In the city set upon slime and loam
they say in their parliament "Who goes home?"
And there comes no answer in arch or dome,
for none in the city of graves goes home,
yet these shall perish and understand,
For God has pity on this great land.

Men that are men again: who goes home?
Tocsin and trumpeter! Who goes home?
For there's blood on the field and blood on the foam
and blood on the body when Man goes home.
And a voice valedictory...Who is for Victory?
Who is for Liberty? Who goes home?"

And here are the first two verses of Chesterton's great hymn, 'O God of earth and altar", written in 1915:

'O God of earth and altar
bow down and hear our cry
our earthly rulers falter
our people drift and die.
The walls of gold entomb us
the swords of scorn divide,
take not thy thunder from us
but take away our pride.* {note: GKC does NOT by 'pride' here mean patriotism - he means the first and worst of the Seven Deadly Sins, Superbia, the spiritual blindness that precedes a fall]

(Now for the second verse, which is eerily apposite for our present predicament, not only in England but elsewhere throughout the free world)

'From all that terror teaches
from lies of tongue and pen,
from all the easy speeches
that comfort cruel men,
from sale and profanation
of honour and the sword,
from sleep and from damnation
deliver us, good Lord."

And since you are a London tradesman, I think you would enjoy another GKC poem 'A Christmas Song for Three Guilds' (find a book of his poetry and look it up, or find it on the internet, it's probably out there).